January 7, 2008

Is Sibel Edmonds trustworthy?

For years, I've been hearing the name "Sibel Edmonds," without being able to make sense out of her story, in part because the U.S. government has been blocking its publication under the State Secrets Act. Now, the London Times has run a long article, "For sale: West's deadly nuclear secrets," about the West Asian-born American citizen who worked for the FBI as a translator in 2001-2002. And it's hot stuff:

One of Edmonds’s main roles in the FBI was to translate thousands of hours of conversations by Turkish diplomatic and political targets that had been covertly recorded by the agency.

A backlog of tapes had built up, dating back to 1997, which were needed for an FBI investigation into links between the Turks and Pakistani, Israeli and US targets. Before she left the FBI in 2002 she heard evidence that pointed to money laundering, drug imports and attempts to acquire nuclear and conventional weapons technology.

“What I found was damning,” she said. “While the FBI was investigating, several arms of the government were shielding what was going on.”

The Turks and Israelis had planted “moles” in military and academic institutions which handled nuclear technology. Edmonds says there were several transactions of nuclear material every month, with the Pakistanis being among the eventual buyers. “The network appeared to be obtaining information from every nuclear agency in the United States,” she said.

They were helped, she says, by the high-ranking State Department official who provided some of their moles – mainly PhD students – with security clearance to work in sensitive nuclear research facilities. These included the Los Alamos nuclear laboratory in New Mexico, which is responsible for the security of the US nuclear deterrent.

In one conversation Edmonds heard the official arranging to pick up a $15,000 cash bribe. The package was to be dropped off at an agreed location by someone in the Turkish diplomatic community who was working for the network.

The Turks, she says, often acted as a conduit for the Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI), Pakistan’s spy agency, because they were less likely to attract suspicion. Venues such as the American Turkish Council in Washington were used to drop off the cash, which was picked up by the official.

Edmonds said: “I heard at least three transactions like this over a period of 2½ years. There are almost certainly more.”

The Pakistani operation was led by General Mahmoud Ahmad, then the ISI chief.

Intercepted communications showed Ahmad and his colleagues stationed in Washington were in constant contact with attach├ęs in the Turkish embassy.

Intelligence analysts say that members of the ISI were close to Al-Qaeda before and after 9/11. Indeed, Ahmad was accused of sanctioning a $100,000 wire payment to Mohammed Atta, one of the 9/11 hijackers, immediately before the attacks.

The results of the espionage were almost certainly passed to Abdul Qadeer Khan, the Pakistani nuclear scientist.

Khan was close to Ahmad and the ISI. While running Pakistan’s nuclear programme, he became a millionaire by selling atomic secrets to Libya, Iran and North Korea. He also used a network of companies in America and Britain to obtain components for a nuclear programme.

Khan caused an alert among western intelligence agencies when his aides met Osama Bin Laden....

In researching this article, The Sunday Times has talked to two FBI officers (one serving, one former) and two former CIA sources who worked on nuclear proliferation. While none was aware of specific allegations against officials she names, they did provide overlapping corroboration of Edmonds’s story.

One of the CIA sources confirmed that the Turks had acquired nuclear secrets from the United States and shared the information with Pakistan and Israel. “We have no indication that Turkey has its own nuclear ambitions. But the Turks are traders. To my knowledge they became big players in the late 1990s,” the source said.

According to Google News, this story that appeared in a famous English newspaper on Sunday has not appeared in the American mainstream media yet as of late Monday. Am I breaking the law by quoting the London Times?

Justin Raimondo has lots more background here at Antiwar.com, including the claim that the crooked spy who was #3 in the State Department was Marc Grossman, who had been U.S. ambassador to Turkey in 1994-1997. Pakistan blew off its first nuclear bomb in May 1998, so the timing of his ambassadorship is interesting (but infinitely far from conclusive). Grossman is now vice-chairman of the Cohen Group lobbying-consulting firm, headed by former Clinton Defense Secretary William Cohen.

Something that finally dawned on me in in recent years is that a lot of the countries that Americans don't take seriously, such as Italy, Mexico, and Turkey, are actually very interesting places. We Americans think of Italy as populated by comic Mario Brothers characters, but to Italians today, and to anyone who has tried to make sense of the Niger Yellowcake Forgery, it's still almost as Machiavellian a place as it seemed to Shakespeare. As I wrote in 2005:
Most Americans feel a deep aversion toward conspiracy theories. To label something as a "conspiracy theory" is to dismiss it out of hand. Americans believe they believe in high-minded principles and believe their enemies believe in evil ideologies. Thus, when members of our government decided to respond to 9/11 by invading Iraq, lots of educated Americans suddenly decided that Osama and Saddam were united by their ideology of Islamofascism, thus justifying the Iraq Attaq. Nobody, including all the alleged Islamofascists, had ever heard of "Islamfofascism" before, but the term quickly became popular among certain classes of Americans. Suggestions that the various players in the Bush Administration were motivated by less principled reasons were denounced as conspiracy theories.

In Italy, in contrast, conspiracy theories are most people's preferred explanation for how the world works, for the simple reason that, in their part of the world, conspiracies are the main mechanism for actually getting anything done. The notion that political operators would favor something on principle seems laughable. The political is personal, in the sense that if you want to understand historical events, you need to understand the connections among the players.

Similarly, we think of Turkey as the Mexico of Europe (and we try to think of Mexico as little as possible), but Turkey turns out to be just as byzantine as you would expect the old Byzantine Empire to be.

For example, Turkey's foreign minister from 1997-2002, Ismail Cem, was a member of the Donmeh, a tiny, little-known, but powerful hereditary group of Salonikan crypto-Jewish followers of Sabbetai Zevi, the 17th Century false messiah and apostate. The strong ties between Israel and the Turkish state are helped by the ethnocultural affinities of a sizable fraction of the Turkish elite.

Does any of this make Sibel Edmonds' story true? No, but it's some background to consider when contemplating the Imperial Fun House.

My published articles are archived at iSteve.com -- Steve Sailer

36 comments:

C. Van Carter said...

"They were helped, she says, by the high-ranking State Department official who provided some of their moles – mainly PhD students – with security clearance to work in sensitive nuclear research facilities."

Any guesses who that might be?

Anonymous said...

I really have a lot of respect for you Sailer, but this is piece is really a disgrace.

"Is Sibel Edmonds trustworthy?"--what kind of a headline and commentary is this? You reference the antiwar.com piece by Raimondo but apparently failed (?) to view the included YouTube video included in which Congressman Grassley and Edmond's immediate supervisor (apparently) at the FBI said she was highly credible. Her (former?) supervisor at the FBI said that, in essence, he feared for her life.

You have admitted in the past that by nature you are non-confrontational, but under the cirmstances, I am sorry to say it would have been better if you had never written your blog on this topic.

It is too important to be handled in the way you have here.

anony-mouse said...

1/ The problem with Raimondo's theories is that most of the neocons he mentioned were out of government during the Clinton administration (remember how they were all associated with the PNAC antiwar.com loves talking about?)

2/ Why would Israel need nuclear weapons information when it has had nukes for decades?

3/ The big news here was when it came to espionage and national security, the Clintons were asleep on the job (or she was asleep and he was wide awake.)

4/ One of Obama's chief foreign policy advisers is Richard Clarke, one of those asleep at the wheel types in the Clinton Administration.

5/ The Times is a Murdoch paper and Murdoch publishes the neocon Weekly Standard. If all this really lead to neocons why would the Times publish it?

Anonymous said...

One of the externalities of such a "diverse" populace with one million newcomers a year is that a good portion of this nation's population are *patriotic* to *other* nations before the United States. Does anyone really think all those Chinese science students, Indian engineers, Paki programmers would not be willing to do something -personally- to aid their former nations, filled with people who look just like themselves, if it involved copying a technology from this, the nation of Britney Spears?

Out of many one huh.............

Maybe we need to "make" our own scientists, loyal to the flag, like we used to.

Anonymous said...

"Maybe we need to "make" our own scientists, loyal to the flag, like we used to."

That's been our approach to spies, translators, and military intelligence troops. After 9/11, we turned down thousands of Arabic-speaking volunteers, including Sephardic Jewish immigrants from Arab countries. Our government prefers WASPs like Valerie Plame.

Evil Neocon said...

Steve -- citing Justin Raimondo is like citing Stormfront or David Duke. Why not just come out as an anti-Semite? I thought you had more brains than that. Really, disgraceful.

AQ Khan DID get a lot of help. From CHINA. Remember, Pakistan's traditional ally since the 1960's? Enemy of mutual enemy India? Ring any bells?

Turkey and Pakistan are ... RIVALS for influence in the Stans and have been since the USSR collapsed. I find it hard to pass the laugh test that Turkey, angling for power and influence in Central Asia, would help a rival gain nuclear secrets that would push it past Turkey.

It makes as much sense as Israel helping a nation filled with AQ supporters get nukes.

It is useful to look at how Israel got it's nukes. Israel achieved nuclear power in the mid 1960's with the assistance of France under De Gaulle (as a way of poking a finger in the eye of pro-Arab Kennedy and Johnson). Generally smaller nations that break-out into nuclear status do so with the very obvious help of larger patron nations:

China assisted Pakistan and North Korea.
France assisted Israel, particularly in material and design.
Russia, China, Germany, Sweden, and France have assisted Iran.
Russia and France built Saddam's Osirak reactor.
France and Germany provided some technical assistance to South Africa -- though most of their material and scientists were home grown.

No "conspiracy" just the usual power politics out of the limelight. Turkey is a country mired in poverty, with a thinly spread military that understands power comes from Westernization not memorizing the Koran (the opposite of their people). Turkey has historically cooperated out of the limelight with Israel on matters of mutual benefit -- mostly Arab governments that threaten both nations like Saddam's Iraq or Assad's Syria. Due to the recent Islamization that has now ceased.

Really Steve, looking at this piece I understand the Dreyfuss Affair more. Thanks for that.

cabrolet said...

One of the CIA sources confirmed that the Turks had acquired nuclear secrets from the United States and shared the information with Pakistan and Israel

Turkey, Pakistan & Israel?! These people are our closest friends. What's all the fuss about?

But seriously, Steve, thanks for posting this contraband. While reading I am watching C-SPAN in the background where U.S. presidential candidate Bill Richardson is touring smalltown New Hampshire and speaking TONS of Spanish.

BTW... filthy and perverted C-SPAN's coverage tonight of the last day of primary campaigning in New Hampshire was:

OBAMA - stump speech w/ big crowd
CLINTON - stump speech w/ big crowd
HUCKABEE - meet & greet the little people reality TV episode
EDWARDS - powwow with neighborhood gathering
RICHARDSON - meet & greet the little people reality TV episode

...in that order. Four democrats, one Republican. C-SPAN has entirely succumbed to O'Sullivan's Law of Organizations. But I knew this when coverage of 2006's illegal immigrant marches and 2007's immigration legislative battles mostly went on the air at 1-3AM.

cabrolet said...

Does anyone really think all those Chinese science students, Indian engineers, Paki programmers would not be willing to do something -personally- to aid their former nations, filled with people who look just like themselves, if it involved copying a technology from this, the nation of Britney Spears?

I think it has been asked on this blog before: what percentage of Chinese technological expertise has been stolen outright from the USA? And, if that percentage is indeed quite large, what inference could be made of China's ability to "lead the world" in technology fields in the future?

My gut feeling is that China has never led the world in scientific discovery. And before readers start whining about how the Chinese invented gunpowder and paper and most everything else etc. consider that ancient Caucasian mummies are being discovered in China at an politically embarrassing rate (as is the case, and has been the case, in other far-flung geographic locations). Yes, I am saying that the technology transfer in ancient times was mostly West-to-East and not East-to-West in later post-ancient times...as we are led to believe in U.S. Department of Education-sanctioned history classes.

There are various links around the internet available to research this subject. Try google. Here's a start at Wiki:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarim_mummies

Note that ancient Caucasian mummies have been discovered around the world and many have been kept under wraps for "political" reasons. Incredible but true. But maybe not so incredible when one considers who, in particular, has explored the moon.

dearieme said...

"Maybe we need to "make" our own scientists, loyal to the flag, like we used to." When was that exactly?

simon newman said...

cabrolet, there were certainly Caucasoid peoples in what's now western China, but there's no evidence they invented gunpowder! Likewise Kennwick Man is strong evidence some of the first tribes to enter the Americas were Caucasoid or proto-Caucasoid, but no evidence of any particular Caucasoid technological genius.

That said, I agree it's unlikely China will eclipse the USA in blue-sky innovation in the foreseeable future - Japan has not, after all. But China can remain poorer and more backward than the USA, with say a GDP per capita half the US level, yet with four times the population she can still become the world's dominant economic and military power.

professor said...

Perhaps the most charitable interpretation of Sibel Edmonds'story is that she discovered a legitimate, honest CIA operation in which our State Department officials were co-opting and controlling the bad guys by appearing to be the allies of the bad guys. I would think this is SOP for the CIA. Anyway, we should hope that this is true, because the alternative -- that the neocons are selling nukes to Moslims -- is too horrible to contemplate.

Robert said...

One thing to consider in the attitudes Americans have toward conspiracy theories, and this goes along with the mentality of one side being good and the other evil (your either with us or against us), is that the outcome of conspiracies are too nuanced and complex to have been pre-planned by a group. How, for example, could a group of people in our government or in Israel pre-plan something as chaotic as 9/11 and expect the exact result that they are looking for with no screwups and nobody leaking information? Or how could somebody pre-plan something as complex as the manipulation of the economy to, say, take wealth away from the middle class allowing the rich to get richer? I don’t know if I believe that the examples that I gave are conspiracies that I believe in but they could, along with any other conspiracies, be plausible if you get away from thinking that they are pre-planned. It could be that like minded people trying to achieve the same long term goals or even trying to achieve different goals but happen to have to employ similar tactics, become aware of each other, use each other, sometimes team up with each other in their pursuit. In other cases, for example, it could be that somebody moves a half ton of heroin into the US and makes a ton of money and somebody else extorts some of money to fund the terrorist group he heads but the second in command in this organization is a mole from a spy agency who at the same time is a double agent with a girlfriend in Brussels, and he takes a cut of the money before the terrorist head get the loot. This double agent then gives a lot of expensive gifts to his girlfriend along with secrets about the terror group. This woman also has another boyfriend who happens to be a Mossad agent planted to see what is up with this woman and the terrorist. The Mossad in turn, figures that they could use the girlfriend to get to the double agent (who the Mossad does not know is a double agent) because they need to use the terror group to destabilize a neighboring country’s government. The double agent tells his government about the Mossad plans. They then figure that they want Israel’s neighbor’s government destabilized as well and they are sure that the terror group will carry this out since that is their stated goal. The terror group seriously lacks funds, the reason for the original extortion, so the double agent’s government has to find a way to help them. They figure that the best way to achieve this is to front the original drug runner money, using say the Russian mafia as intermediaries, to make another shipment thus allowing money to be extorted and thus funding the terror. Other people get wind that there is something up and go along with this because it is in their interest to see this country destabilized. They may want this country’s oil, they may be members of exiled parties who are also lobbyists in the double agent’s home country, or their may be people who will profit personally in all of this. The double agent’s government, at the same time, also helps revolutionary groups in Israel’s neighbor and helps the exiled party lobbyists. The lobbyists make this profitable to government figures in the double agent’s country as well as in countries allied to this country, thus getting more politicians on board against the government of Israel’s neighbor. The double agent’s government leaks controlled information to the press who’s main audience are people who only like hearing stories where their country represents good and anybody who does not go along with the goals of our government are evil. This pisses off Israel’s neighbor who expels the ambassador and the embassy staff of the double agent’s country. The double agent’s government keeps leaking info to the press and puts its military on alert. The terrorists strike and Israel’s neighbor’s strikes back with a terrorist attack of its own and the everything is destabilized. This is probably how most of these kinds of this get going.

Robert said...

Steve -- citing Justin Raimondo is like citing Stormfront or David Duke. Why not just come out as an anti-Semite?

Does it really make a person an anti-semite and a fellow traveller of David Duke if they speak out against the fact that the United States is blindly supportive of Israel in part due to the power of the Israeli lobby groups in this country, or they speak out against the war in Iraq?

DYork said...

Anonymous said...Our government prefers WASPs like Valerie Plame.

You fail to understand why a woman who looks like Valerie Plame was recruited by CIA. She was picked because she was a beautiful young women hired to recruit overseas based US business men, academics etc to provide information to the CIA.

They aren't going to hire some ugly sephardic Jewish guy to do that.

As for WASPS in the government, they are a problem to the degree that they are psychotically philo-semitic. Like Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld surrounding themselves with a nest of Israeli activist American Jews otherwise mislabeled neo-conservatives.

Israeli activist Jews have infiltrated and subverted much of the US power struture and institutions for the perceived advantage of the Jewish people and the Israeli state.

Everybody with a brain knows that. Just because knee jerk Jewish bigots can't handle that truth doesn't make it any less true.

David said...

Why would Israel deal with the Pakis? If Boise is nuked, all it would take is finding a floater downstream wearing an "I luv Allah" t-shirt to shove this country into World War 3 (or 4 or 5...can't remember which one the neocons have reached by now) against all of Israel's traditional enemies in the region, the head of which has always been alleged to be Iran.

Now imagine Edmond's testimony combined with the mute tale told by the floating "towelhead": perfidious Turkey gave Osama/Ahmadinejad/them Muslims the nuke that killed my grandma - bomb Tehran!

You see, Edmonds story can be used two ways by neocons:

1. PRIOR TO THE NEXT 9-11 (i.e. currently): She is a bald-faced liar, ridiculously and evilly trying to implicate Israel in nuclear espionage against the US. Anti-semitic witch! It's Bejing or, better, Tehran that we should bomb.

2. AFTER THE NEXT 9-11: She is a Cassandra, hounded for her attempt to use her incontrovertibly true evidence of Turkey's giving nukes to al-Queda to warn the complacent West - now let's bomb Tehran.

Think the average Bush or Huckabee voter wouldn't bite? Think again.

Lucius Vorenus said...

Is this why Sandy Berger needed to destroy those documents? [Marc Grossman & Nuclear Espionage]
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1950281/posts

David Davenport said...

Why would Israel need nuclear weapons information when it has had nukes for decades?

Because Israel hasn't had for decades the physically compact nuclear warheads that the USA has.

The Israelis would be very interested in the designs of these warheads. Not the abstract nuclear theory which of course brilliant Israeli scientists already know, but the applied, practical design of the non-fission detonators and the mechanical packaging of American compactly-sized nu-clear warheads.

billswift said...

As a side-note on conspiracy theories - it is to any real conspirators' advantage to have everyone automatically discount "conspiracy theories".

Svigor said...

A great opening by Ebil Neeyocon, with the moral-social posturing over "beyond the Pale" Raimondo (Raimondo doesn't carry Israeli water, and so is an ebil heretic), ad hominem attack.

Really Steve, looking at this piece I understand the Dreyfuss Affair more. Thanks for that.

Has it helped you understand the Rosenbergs better too? How about the Lavon Affair? The AIPAC case? That creepy thing with the previous governor of New Jersey?

Maybe someone should publish a book about Jewish treachery. There could be a chapter about the Dreyfuss Affair, titled, "The Exception That Proves The Rule."

Svigor said...

Does it really make a person an anti-semite and a fellow traveller of David Duke if they speak out

More to the point, is someone truly a schmuck on wheels for caring either way (i.e., falling for this cheap carney act of character assassination) when assessing fact?

Canson said...

One question raised by this is how do you productively discuss such allegations and avoid crime-think? The short answer as we all know is that it's simply impossible. The level of trust and implicit good faith that existed in the not so distant past are conspicuous by their absence. Get used to having your chain jerked in more and more brazen ways and expect people to say less and less about it. Perhaps arch-conspiritologist Hoffman is right?

tanabear said...

Yes, I believe Sibel Edmonds is trustworthy. I think this could be just the tip of the iceberg. Justin Raimondo mention Mahmoud Ahmed, the head of Pakistan's ISI at the time, who may have wired $100,000 to supposed lead hijacker Mohammed Atta. He could have also mentioned that Mahmoud Ahmed came to Washington on September 4, 2001 and was here during the 9/11 attacks. He met with many top intelligence officials(Goss, Graham, Tenet) including Marc Grossman, the man named by Sibel Edmonds.

Sibel Edmonds stated regarding criminal network she stumbled upon,

“You can start from the AIPAC angle. You can start from the [Valerie] Plame case. You can start from my case. They all end up going to the same place, and they revolve around the same nucleus of people. There may be a lot of them, but it is one group. And they are very dangerous for all of us.”

Justin Raimondo stated that this could be the story of the decade. He is wrong. It would be the story of the century. 9/11 is the greatest unsolved murder mystery in world history.

Evil Neocon said...

Svigor -- I guess you and Steve will have some problems now with Ron Paul.

His newsletters from the 1990's have been unearthed. They portray him as an ugly, nasty, vicious racist.

You can see the story here .

It is the height of anti-semitism to believe a person is a traitor because he/she is Jewish. Zionists argue that no Jew can be accepted as a citizen because people always accuse them of treason because of their faith. A position proven correct when ordinary Europeans, Frenchmen, Dutchmen, Poles, and so on went out of their way to send Jews who posed no threat at all to them to the gas chambers.

The holocaust could not have happened without well ... people like Svigor motivated by racial hatred against old men, women, and children.

As far as the Rosenberg case goes, there are plenty of white, WASP traitors as well. The FBI agent Hanson. "The Falcon and the Snowman" duo The family that sold secrets to the Soviets (from the Navy). The CIA agent who sold secrets. The real effective atomic spies were Klaus Fuchs and some Army Sergeant who both escaped any significant punishment.

Rosenbergs were unquestionably guilty, but not the main players and gave away few secrets (Fuchs and the Army guy gave away the plans and other material).

Steve -- you have a real problem with anti-Semites and bigots on this blog. At a time when Ehud Olmert is playing "Let's make a deal -- any deal at all" again your lunatic conspiracy nutcases believe Israel fabricated 9/11 (or like Ron Paul, the 1993 WTC bombing). Israelis are deeply divided, middle class suburban people who just want the violence to go away and will make almost any deal it seems to stop it. Heck their own lawyers boast about how they imposed legal restrictions over victory in the Hezbollah War.

Too bad your conspiracy-minded cranks can't deal with ugly reality and have to substitute nutty conspiracy theories instead. Just like Ron Paul.

Canson said...

Evil Neocon, you are the ugly reality. The fact that damn near every posting of yours fails in part or in whole when given the least examination is not proof of anti-semitism. Note that your bilge is given a thrashing not because of Juden Haas rather because you engage in a pattern of lies and misrepresentation. Did it ever occur to you that most people detest being lied to and indeed find condescension compounded with lies yet more loathsome. You want to know why some people distrust Jews? Look in the mirror.

anony-mouse said...

Israelis detest theory and are very practical (as a lot of the anti-somethingism posts here seem to indicate) and do have missiles and warheads of their own.

So again, why would the Israelis need info on US nuclear secrets?

Anonymous said...

"That creepy thing with the previous governor of New Jersey?"

Occam's razor suggests that our execrable former governor's attempt to give his gay Israeli lover a state government sinecure was of a piece with the governor's general corruption and not part of some Israeli espionage plot. Surely the Israelis would know that a non-citizen could never get the secret security clearance necessary to be a state homeland security liaison. If they were trying to infiltrate that position, and if we American Jews are as prone to treachery as you imagine, wouldn't it have made more sense to use a Jew who was an American citizen as well as an NJ resident? There are hundreds of thousands of Jews born and bred in NJ -- why use an Israeli citizen whose application would be DOA?

francis k said...

steve deleted my post last year describing a black market for compromising information on american politicians. steve doesn't like to indulge conspiracy talk. but this conspiracy definitely exists.

the american telephone architecture - meaning the hard-coded computer infrastructure - was compromised by the mossad in the 1990's and possibly even earlier. the 2001 foxnews expose on the subject proves this beyond any doubt. my question to mr & mrs america is what the hell do think happens to the resulting wellspring of information? the answer is that it's a goldmine for blackmailers.

the logical inference is that if you control a nation's phone lines then yes by god you can control a nation's politicians. you can develop a detailed file on their contacts. sexual proclivities and weaknesses such as gambling and drug use can be determined. after you have compromised a subject there are two overlapping profit paths: you can 'run' the subject yourself and gain advantage. and you can also 'sell' the subject on a black market. that is obvious steve. but you wouldn't let me posit this simple logical inference in the past on this blog. because i'm not a name writer like raimondo? so be it.

it is obvious to readers now. a lot of our politicians and bureacrats are for sale on the black market. they appear to behave as puppets because gee whiz they are puppets. this is a normal state of affairs in any third world country.

definitely read the raimondo link in the posting for the dirty details. what a wake up call.

TGGP said...

It's ironic that Evil Neocon references the Dreyfuss Affair, because here Mrs. Edmonds seems like Dreyfuss. The government hasn't gone after anyone she's accused, after all.

On a tangent, I think it's arguable whether Valerie Plame is much better looking than Sibel (with a different Sibel, nose and all, well ahead of them both).

Svigor said...

Svigor -- I guess you and Steve will have some problems now with Ron Paul.

My problem with Paul is his libertarianism, not the silly storm in a teacup over what someone else published in his newsletter.

It is the height of anti-semitism to believe a person is a traitor because he/she is Jewish.

It's the height of dishonesty to lean on the straw man crutch. Why are Jews so often so fond (in my experience) of this technique? Seems like the closer one gets to their sensitive Jewish parts, the more frequent this use becomes; I'm not REALLY me you see - I'm some cutout caricature of an anti-Semite who believes what Ebil says I believe.

Zionists argue that no Jew can be accepted as a citizen because people always accuse them of treason because of their faith. A position proven correct when ordinary Europeans, Frenchmen, Dutchmen, Poles, and so on went out of their way to send Jews who posed no threat at all to them to the gas chambers.

What can I tell you? We goyim (cattle, unclean, beasts, what have you) are thoroughly evil. Maybe Jews should stop following us around. Jews are bright, right? Then why is the worst thing you can say to a Jew, "I'd like to have a place for me and mine - as your people have for you and yours - where you aren't welcome"? Seems like intelligent, rational people would conclude "probably a great idea, Svi."

(P.S., I'm a nice guy so I don't refer to Jews who point to "you gentiles" over the holocaust, but never thank "us gentiles" for hauling their asses out of the fire, as ungrateful bastards; never mind the whole enfranchising them into western civilization and tearing up the bill thing)

I mean, there's Israel, the ethnic home of the Jewish people, the sort of home organized Jewry seems willing to do anything to deny to Europeans...but most Jews, particularly the bright ones, seem intent on avoiding the place.

What gives?

The holocaust could not have happened without well ... people like Svigor motivated by racial hatred against old men, women, and children.

What would you guys do without the holocaust card? Spent a lot of that in Palestine, mate.

As far as the Rosenberg case goes, there are plenty of white, WASP traitors as well.

I love this one. How should I phrase the logic? "Jews can't be guilty as long as Euros can"? "Two wrongs make a right"?

The FBI agent Hanson. "The Falcon and the Snowman" duo The family that sold secrets to the Soviets (from the Navy). The CIA agent who sold secrets. The real effective atomic spies were Klaus Fuchs and some Army Sergeant who both escaped any significant punishment.

When you're done with all your finger-pointing, maybe you can explain its relevance? Draw some conclusions for me.

Steve -- you have a real problem with anti-Semites and bigots on this blog. At a time when Ehud Olmert is playing "Let's make a deal -- any deal at all" again your lunatic conspiracy nutcases believe Israel fabricated 9/11 (or like Ron Paul, the 1993 WTC bombing). Israelis are deeply divided, middle class suburban people who just want the violence to go away and will make almost any deal it seems to stop it. Heck their own lawyers boast about how they imposed legal restrictions over victory in the Hezbollah War.

I love it when Jews do this - on one hand anyone who paints Jews with a broad brush is an anti-Semite, but on the other, they paint those they dislike (definition of an anti-Semite) with a much broader brush.

As for Israelis, let's face it: the Israelis are the Pioneers and the Palestinians are the Indians, except the deed is only 50 years old and the tides of history radically different. Can you say, "doomed"? Believe me, I'd rather that wasn't the truth, but it is. Hey, look on the bright side, the only way they've gotten away with their colonialism this long is because they're Jews; imagine Europeans trying to do something similar today, that's good for a laugh!

Too bad your conspiracy-minded cranks can't deal with ugly reality and have to substitute nutty conspiracy theories instead. Just like Ron Paul.

Hmm, getting a little catty, are we? Brush up on your Freud and psychoanalyze me, or something. It might relax you.

Now please excuse me, I have to go laugh uproariously at the implication that Jews are morally superior to Europeans.

pujkkou said...

P.S., Ebil, how about owning up to your people's leading role in the Communist atrocities? A word or two about the scale of said atrocities wouldn't hurt, either.

Anonymous said...

[Ron Paul's] newsletters from the 1990's have been unearthed. They portray him as an ugly, nasty, vicious racist.

Oh man, this story is a real eye-opener and reveals these guys as the f***s that they are. I mean the Neocon bunch.

Just look what they found in one of his old newsletters: "Order was only restored in L.A. when it came time for the blacks to pick up their welfare checks three days after rioting began." Can you believe it? Oh, the humanity! The blatant racism of it all. What blatant libel.

And this guy calls himself a "libertarian?" Isn't a true Libertarian like those wonderfully "urbane" (? ...meaning "sissy?" ..."effeminate?") open-borders fanatics from "Reason?"

If we allow that guy to gain any more influence, and through him American patriots, we know where it all will end: anti-Jewism. As we all know (or should know by now), the first moral precept of universal ethics is "love thy Jew; associate with him, or else..."

Great revelation about Paul from TNR, the hotbed of liberty-minded, pro-Western men of measured and conservative thinking. This should kill his candidacy, if the 257 smear-attempts until now hasn't.


JD

Svigor said...

The pujkkou comment was mine, FF likes to switch focus when reloading blogger pages.

Svigor said...

Steve, I'm glad you withheld that comment because I didn't put a fine enough point on it:

In fact, the 1965 immigration act is proof of organized Jewry's treachery, not that of Jews in general. That's part of the game: big Jews feed the little Jews to the sharks every so often, and the little Jews suck it up happily (or enact one-way gene flow by defecting).

Svigor said...

Too bad your conspiracy-minded cranks can't deal with ugly reality and have to substitute nutty conspiracy theories instead. Just like Ron Paul.

What a charmingly blundering way of phrasing it! We can't deal with reality, so we hide in delusions about Jewish conspiracies?

LOL! I can only talk about this subject on the net and to my closest family and friends because it's so radioactive...and that makes me a coward.

Uhm, okay, so I'm a wuss (like everyone else) and don't go bringing up my political thoughts about Jewry in public and in person, but that just makes me like everyone else - how does my net commentary on same make me an intellectual coward, exactly? This is one of the last labels I'd expect. :)

Race-realists is all about the ugly reality, baby!

If I wanted to hide from "ugly" reality I'd choose UFOs; nobody gets banned or flamed or investigated or harrassed or beaten up over saucers. Okay so I'm overdoing it, but still...

P.S., I wish to God I was/am wrong, because my kinfolk's struggle back to sanity would be significantly easier.

David Davenport said...

Israelis detest theory and are very practical (as a lot of the anti-somethingism posts here seem to indicate) and do have missiles and warheads of their own.

So again, why would the Israelis need info on US nuclear secrets?


Because the USA thus far has been able to build more physically compact fission and fusion weapons than the very practical, theory-despising Israelis can manufacture.


There's more to big bad bomb making than than pure atomic theory.

I also ask rhetorically, if the Israelis already know everything, why do they require American non-nuclear weapons and electronic systems?

Anonymous said...

You raise the question of Sibel Edmon's trustworthyness yet you provide no reasons to support your claims. Your lack of reasoning, failure to support your own claim and lack of evidence all support the claim that you are a dishonest partisan with an agenda