June 16, 2008

Another approach to estimating Indian IQ

Godless Capitalist, a co-founder of GNXP, suggests an approach for getting real achievement data by caste background for Indians in North America that's similar to what Nathaniel Weyl and Stefan Possony did in the 1960s: surname analysis. Weyl and Possony made up lists of surnames that tend to belong to one ethnic group, like Clark is English, Wallace Scottish, Sullivan Irish, Lloyd Welsh, Schmidt German, and so forth; then figure out what percentage of the population has each surname from Social Security Administration data; then compare the base percentages to how frequently these names show up among lists of high achievers.

GC suggests you could do the same thing with social networking sites like Facebook where people put down their colleges, degrees, and jobs by comparing achievement levels to names associated with different castes and regions. For details of how to do it, see here.

My published articles are archived at iSteve.com -- Steve Sailer

69 comments:

Anonymous said...

It's a pretty noisy method. Here's a similar analysis for estimating the IQs of people who like certain books:

http://booksthatmakeyoudumb.virgil.gr/

Anonymous said...

I don't think there's a significant correlation between caste and IQ in the United States. There's enough of a selection effect that most Indian-Americans, regardless of caste, fall within the same IQ range. Both a Brahmin and an untoucable Indian-American probably have similar educational credentials and similar IQs. So devising a caste/IQ model is not going to work too well. I'd also imagine U.S. upper castes to have higher IQs than Indian upper castes. So I believe the model is a bit flawed unfortunately.

I'm also not completely sold on the idea that IQ varies by caste due to genetic factors. In a land with India's level of extreme inequality, how does an untouchable laborer compete with his Brahmin landlord? How can we decide the gap between high and low caste is due to IQ rather than nutrition/equal opportunity/education?

Even more interesting is how overwhelmingly low-caste South India outperforms Brahmin-dominated North/Central India on so many metrics. If you graphed caste on the X axis and economic development on the Y, I'm not even sure you'd find a correlation.

nsam said...

Median institutional SAT is a poor measure when dealing with relatively small numbers of people (and also other factors like expenses involved in studying at the institution are sources of systematic error)

A good caste classifier must begin with good data.

The best possible data that I have come across are at

http://www.bharatmatrimony.com/

They have created as good caste taxonomy (there must be a few hundred groups in there) as I have seen and it is driven by the market (i.e. how people identify themselves for purposes of endogamy).

Instead of spidering their site ( would it violate terms of service??), why not approach them formally to provide data in 3 columns (name, gender, caste group) for research? If spidering is ok, then that could be done. That could be the basis for an amazingly accurate caste classifier, bar none and could be used for all sorts of reasons.

The only minor tweak is to further impose structure on the taxonomy (currently its by region-->caste) so that aggregation of castes across regions can also be done (eg. a map to north indian brahmins)

The missionary orgs (who have a master plan to convert all of India) have a dossier on the few thousand subgroups on the web but I dont think they have the kind of name information thats out in the marriage sites.

Godless said...

> It's a pretty noisy method.

Noise is unavoidable. Short of administering an IQ test to millions of people, using relatively well curated profile data is probably the best alternative (certainly cleaner than general web content).

Also, I'm familiar with Griffith's analysis. As you know, that link *does* confirm that African Americans have lower IQs...so the general ordinal ranking is likely to be preserved.

> I don't think there's a significant correlation between caste and IQ

It's a hypothesis. Some of the most persuasive evidence in favor includes the large scale caste quotas in India, which mirror similar IQ-based racial quotas in South Africa, Malaysia, America, etc. Additionally, the analyses of Indian genomics (e.g. Rosenberg et al.) show plenty of genetic variation between castes to work with.

> Both a Brahmin and an untoucable Indian-American probably have similar educational credentials and similar IQs.

Given caste differences in IQ in India, that's actually not true. Consider two distributions with shifted means, say even 5 points apart, with equal SDs. You apply threshold selection. Most of the individuals thus selected will pile up at the threshold, but the distribution with the higher mean will have many more which are significantly above the threshold.

Formally, we're talking about comparing P(X_i|X_i > T) for different values of i, where X_i is (say) a Gaussian RV with unspecified parameters. The higher the value of the threshold, the greater the value of

E[X_1|X_1 > T] - E[X_2|X_2 > T]

if mu_1 > mu_2 and sigma_1 = sigma_2.


> I'd also imagine U.S. upper castes to have higher IQs than Indian upper castes.

Sure, and people on the web will have higher IQs still. Nevertheless
this will still yield an ordinal ranking that is likely to comport with reality. Moreover, data from a million or more profiles is actually, y'know, a *real* data set rather than armchair speculation :)

One can furthermore apply various kinds of corrections for restriction of range. A good deal of this can be detected by visualization -- given a sample from a right tail, you can make a histogram of it and see that it is in fact tail shaped rather than bell shaped. You can then set this up as an inverse problem to determine the true mean/variance from the tail distribution.

Again, data is really the key here to do these kinds of things.

> Median institutional SAT is a poor measure when dealing with relatively small numbers of people

Well, there are hundreds of millions of people on social networks, including millions of Indians. So you're not dealing with small numbers of people.

Even salami slicing 10^6 data points into 100 categories gives you on average 10000 data points in each category, though of course categories will in general have different frequencies.

Moreover, if you want to estimate the effects of using median SAT rather than the actual measured IQ, you can do something simple -- just use both median SAT and the reported interquartile range to set up an SAT distribution for each university.

Now rather than deterministically assign the median SAT to each individual, you stochastically sample from this distribution.

Repeat many times and see whether your rank ordering moves around significantly (given enough size, it's doubtful that it will).

neil craig said...

Should work considerably better in India, where marriage across caste lines is unusual whereas in the US there is little stigma if Betty Munro marries Ralph Hapstadt.

dearieme said...

"Clark" is a rotten choice: it's long been claimed that Clark/Clerk people have higher than average IQs because they are descended from men who learned to read and write when those were rare skills and probably therefore taught only to bright boys.

godlesscapitalist said...

> You apply threshold selection. Most of the individuals thus selected will pile up at the threshold, but the distribution with the higher mean will have many more which are significantly above the threshold.

Formally, we're talking about comparing P(X_i|X_i > T) for different values of i, where X_i is (say) a Gaussian RV with unspecified parameters. The higher the value of the threshold, the greater the value of

E[X_1|X_1 > T] - E[X_2|X_2 > T]

if mu_1 > mu_2 and sigma_1 = sigma_2.


--------

My bad here -- the difference in means actually *decreases* as T increases because of the piling up at the threshold, but the ratio increases dramatically.

So those who are selected will be of approximately equal competence. So the proportions will give you the information about the unthresholded distro rather than the mean differences.

You can see this in R

T = 2;
N = 1000000;
x = rnorm(N,mean=0);
y = rnorm(N,mean=1);
cmean.x = mean(x[x > T]);
cmean.y = mean(y[y>T]);
cmean.diff = cmean.y - cmean.x;
cfrac.x = sum(x[x>T])/length(x);
cfrac.y = sum(y[y>T])/length(y); cfrac.ratio = cfrac.y/cfrac.x; print(paste("T=",T)); print(paste("cond x mean=",cmean.x,"cond x frac=",cfrac.x));
print(paste("cond y mean=",cmean.y,"cond y frac=",cfrac.y));
print(paste("cond mean diff=",cmean.diff,"cond frac ratio=",cfrac.ratio))


[1] "T= 2"
[1] "cond x mean= 2.37751231223791 cond x frac= 0.0545971927382314"
[1] "cond y mean= 2.52516660042679 cond y frac= 0.399377824356901"
[1] "cond mean diff= 0.14765428818888 cond frac ratio= 7.31498826820154"

[1] "T= 2.5"
[1] "cond x mean= 2.8229063047972 cond x frac= 0.0173524050555884"
[1] "cond y mean= 2.93854278604966 cond y frac= 0.195468927585238"
[1] "cond mean diff= 0.115636481252464 cond frac ratio= 11.2646591039717"


[1] "T= 3"
[1] "cond x mean= 3.28097202672023 cond x frac= 0.00448836973255327"
[1] "cond y mean= 3.37104585479584 cond y frac= 0.0766575827380574"
[1] "cond mean diff= 0.0900738280756079 cond frac ratio= 17.0791595402836"


(PS: note of course that sampling variance increases dramatically as T increases due to relatively few counts in the tails)

godlesscapitalist said...

> The only minor tweak is to further impose structure on the taxonomy (currently its by region-->caste) so that aggregation of castes across regions can also be done (eg. a map to north indian brahmins)


Yes, basically a caste ontology. Not hard to do, but would be useful to analyze the data at different levels of granularity.

Anonymous said...

rec1man here
---
anonymous wrote

Even more interesting is how overwhelmingly low-caste South India outperforms Brahmin-dominated North/Central India on so many metrics. If you graphed caste on the X axis and economic development on the Y, I'm not even sure you'd find a correlation.

--

In my model I give a 5 IQ point advantage to south Indian castes across the board, since the southern elite was not subject to islamic massacres for 500 years as in north india to force conversion to islam

South India also has 8% muslims vs 18% in north India
Muslims due to their mullahs and non-education of women come in around 80IQ

And in south India, there is a 70% AA quota against the SIB

Anonymous said...

anonymous wrote
---

I don't think there's a significant correlation between caste and IQ in the United States. There's enough of a selection effect that most Indian-Americans, regardless of caste, fall within the same IQ range. B

---

Absolutely wrong

Assume both northern merchants and SIB came in through the F1 route

The northern merchant paid his way through MS degree, any IQ > 115

The SIB came in through the scholarship route with the filter of over 140IQ

It is a travesty to compare the IQ of the Patel-motel with the SIB geeks in silicon valley

Think Apu Naheseemapetilon ( merchant ) of the
simpsons vs Asok ( SIB )the geek on Dilbert

Anonymous said...

rec1man here
---

anon wrote

I'd also imagine U.S. upper castes to have higher IQs than Indian upper castes. So I believe the model is a bit flawed unfortunately.

---

In my model, I assume that the diaspora in the US reflects the top quartile of the base caste back in India, an IQ delta of 10

Anonymous said...

rec1man here
----
In a land with India's level of extreme inequality, how does an untouchable laborer compete with his Brahmin landlord? How can we decide the gap between high and low caste is due to IQ rather than nutrition/equal opportunity/education?

---

13% of brahmins are poor ( starvation )
In many states brahmins are poorer than dalits who get AA
Almost no brahmin is a landlord
The landlords are mostly of peasant castes

In my model, I assume that the Dalit suffers from a Flynn deficit of 10, same as Africans whereas brahmins suffer from a Flynn deficit of 5

Anonymous said...

Why is this even an interesting question?

Steve , the time and effort you waste on this nonsense should be spent on exposing how the Hindu community in America is using its wealth and political power to bring about the deskilling of the European American population.

Anonymous said...

anonymous said
---
Both a Brahmin and an untoucable Indian-American probably have similar educational credentials and similar IQs.
---

There are almost zero untouchable Indian American immigrants, except those brought in by xtian missionary groups for propoganda purposes against brahmins

Most of the so called Dalit organisations in the US are run by white xtians

--

rob said...

Anon,

If there were genetic caste differences, we'd see the children regress to different means. There would be caste differences in the second generation. This applies in general, not just to gc's threshold method.

Jim O'Sullivan said...

Where can I find that surname analysis? How DID "Sullivan" do? Does "O'Sullivan" count??

nsam said...

If grant money could be found, here are 4 steps

1. Name to Caste classifier based on matrimonial site data (eg bharatmatrimony dot com which is founded by a south indian merchant caste)

2. Get population database of Indian Americans from Vin Gupta's infousa (get a discount on the database)

3. Analyze infousa database using the caste classifier (this has tons of useful outcomes like zipcode and annual income). For SAT and such, do mail/telephone/web survey sampling till the results converge. A big advantage is that virtually all indian americans are net savvy. Also this can be used to further tune the name to caste classifier.

4. At this point one will need to do the real hard part..Namely what these data imply for the Indian populations in India and elsewhere and how to further triangulate.

Most of this can be done within 3 years (and the rest within 2 more years) and will probably require a million dollars to do, I am guessing. Steps 3 and 4 would be expensive but worth doing.

The grant proposal could be titled thusly

"Estimating the human resource potential of the Asian Indian population"

Anonymous said...

If you're seriously contemplating this at the level of grant research, it seems you would be better off doing without the indirect, roundabout methodology and tracking down the likely already existing data sets collected by the army and the civil bureaucracies. I spoke to an indian army officer once who mentioned that the army uses a pretty extensive battery of IQ and personality tests to place officers. I assume data would be collected on castes as well.

Dmytro Kornilov said...

Does anybody know where I can find Ricard Lynn's new book? I've been dying to read it but Amazon hasn't had it for about two weeks.

Josh said...

I went out on a date with a pretty Indian girl. I asked her if she was an Untouchable.She replied,"To YOU-yeah!"

Cyd the Kid said...

Why is this even an interesting question?

Steve , the time and effort you waste on this nonsense should be spent on exposing how the Hindu community in America is using its wealth and political power to bring about the deskilling of the European American population.


Exactly my thoughts. Why is this even A question? Anonymous above certainly has a legitimate question whose answer carries a greater impact than anything remotely involving Indian IQ.

Another good question is the impact of Indian ethnic nepotism and exclusionary practices in foreign lands and their detrimental effects on the native population. Try that.

Anonymous said...

Most of the individuals thus selected will pile up at the threshold, but the distribution with the higher mean will have many more which are significantly above the threshold.

Good point. I'm just not convinced that if you looked at the IA elite, you'd find a huge percentage of Brahmins at the top of the spectrum. IA caste backgrounds seem fairly diverse even at the elite end......

SIBs don't seem to be particularly numerous in the IA elite. I also believe that Sikhs are doing well here and they're definitely not high caste. I'm just not seeing any caste pulling ahead of the group.

Some of the most persuasive evidence in favor includes the large scale caste quotas in India,

The quotas exist because of massive inequality.... If you look at Southern states where Brahmin hegemony has been defeated, you'll see some really strong stats for low-caste people. Such as the 99% literacy rate in Kerala. Or if you look at Singapore (1/3 of Indo-Singaporeans are descended from untouchables), Indians are doing well. My hypothesis is that when India finally provides educational opportunity to everyone, the low castes will reach parity with the Brahmins.

It is a travesty to compare the IQ of the Patel-motel with the SIB geeks in silicon valley

Most Indian-Americans are working in nerd/geek professions. The motel owners are just a small piece of the Indian community.

Anecdotally, America is full of 2nd gen Patels in medicine and engineering. So don't discount them as a group....

In many states brahmins are poorer than dalits who get AA
Almost no brahmin is a landlord
The landlords are mostly of peasant castes


If Brahmins are poorer than Dalits, then how do they have higher IQs?

godlesscapitalist said...

nsam -- can you email me at godlesscapitalist@gmail.com to discuss this analysis?

(and of course to nepotistically plot how best to deskill Cyd the Kid....muhuhahaha....ahem)

H. said...

Latter posts are my thoughts exactly: is it really relevant what the IQs of various Indian castes are, when the pertinent aspect of the whole matter is why they still have them going, and what are the implications for American whites? I am pretty sick of the image of India as a groovy, mystical guru land, when its vicious caste system makes any social injustice in the west minor by comparison. What are the implications of _Indian behavior_ for us, Steve?

nsam said...

---
spoke to an indian army officer once who mentioned that the army uses a pretty extensive battery of IQ and personality tests to place officers.
---

To get at this data would need serious access.. similar DBs exist for high school exams, entrance exams (these should be easier to get than the Army DB) But to make full use of this, one needs a caste classifier first as traditionally only SC/ST have been asked to indicate their classification (for AA purposes) and now this has been expanded to the OBCs as of this year.
---

Anonymous said...

The UK, with its large and varied Indian-origin population, would be a better place to test this than the US.

I don't know that anyone has tried getting IQs for different caste or regional groups of UK 'Indians', but their educational performance is generally very high. And (anecdotally) the sons and daughters of shopkeepers (all those Patels!) are usually doctors, accountants, lawyers, etc.

Patel-motel said...

All that follows is anecdotal.

It is a travesty to compare the IQ of the Patel-motel with the SIB geeks in silicon valley

I am one of these "Patel-motel" 1.5 generation people. My father, an engineer, is the only educated person on both sides of the family. He sponsored his and my mother's siblings' immigration. The siblings are either merchants or lower/middle class workers, and yes, one of them even owned a motel for a while. Among my generation (the "cousins"), on my mother's side, there is a software engineer, a pharmD, and a couple of business degrees. On my father's side, there is a software engineer, pharmD, chemist, social science PhD, business degree, medical school dropout due to chronic debilitating illness, another engineer of a type I don't remember, and a yet-to-be-determined. My brother is an engineer and I am an MD.

I have not seen a variation in achievement between North and South Indians. If anything, I'd say that the North Indian kids of my generation are slightly greater achieving than the South Indian kids, though I'm not completely sure about this. Granted, most of the South Indian kids I know are Reddys, Raos, or Christians, not brahmins. Thus, I'm skeptical of the +5 added to South Indians in the IQ model. Moreover, I don't know if I buy that Silicon Valley is dominated by SIBs. Much like in the rest of America, it seems a distribution of castes and ethnicities.

In my medical training circles, my friends tend to be Indians and Asians. Normalized for percent of overall population, Indians are the most over-represented group by far. In my training program, at one time, nearly half of all residents were either Indian or Pakistani. Chinese are probably next, but they're slightly less common in medical circles and have a higher overall population in the US (for now). A few Koreans and scattered Vietnamese and Persians are present. There are also quite a few Jews.

Anecdotally, I can't really see a difference among the various ethnicities (in medical circles). If you asked my friends, "Which ethnic group is smartest or highest achieving, in your experience?", there'd be no consensus. Currently, the brightest resident I know is Jewish. A few years ago, it was a Korean. Back during internship, it was an Indian.

Anecdotally, it seems to me that Indian-American IQ is well above the American average. My parents and their siblings are from the merchant class of Gujarat, yet their kids are almost unanimously high achievers. Every single Indian-American kid (mix of north and south indians) I grew up with in my small home town either makes or will make $100,000 by the age of 30, and will be a millionaire soon after.

Indians-Americans have a very high (highest?) average income. Let me state my theory of why. Lots of immigrant groups do well at the right-end of the curve - doctors, engineers, lawyers, etc. However, uneducated, even illiterate Gujaratis become millionaires by opening businesses in middle America. It's the high achievement of the left-end of the curve driven by the merchant culture that raises the Indian average above others'.

This anecdotal experience has long made me skeptical of the low 80s average Indian IQ cited by the science. Sure, there's a selection bias, but in my family, only my father is educated (selected), yet my cousins are doing very well. There has to be more to the story.

Kudos to recman for hypothesizing a model. However, I'm skeptical of some parts of the model, namely the 5 point advantage given to south indians and the astronomically higher advantage given to SIBs. My anecdotal experience has not borne this out.

Anonymous said...

Reply to Patel Motel

My model which seems to have consensus on the other thread

Current IQ in India
SIB, 1% @ 113IQ
NIB, 4% @ 108IQ
Southern Merchant, 3%, @ 105IQ
Northern Merchant, 12% @ 102IQ
Peasant, 40%, 88IQ
SC/ST/Muslim, 40%, 75IQ
Avg = 86IQ

After some decades when malnutrition is removed
SIB, 1%, 116IQ
NIB, 4%, 111IQ
Southern Merchant, 3%, 108IQ
Northern Merchant, 12%, 105IQ
Peasant, 40%, 93IQ
SC/ST/Muslim, 30% @ 85IQ
Avg = 93IQ

Indian Diaspora in US
with filtered immigration
SIB, 20%, 126IQ
Northern Merchant, 60%, 115IQ
Northern Peasant, 20%, 101IQ

--

I classify Patel as Northern Merchant

Of course the Patel in the USA will be a millionaire, he has 115IQ equal to the jews and has 3000 years of making money in business

The North South IQ differential is not racial, but solely due to large scale muslim massacres in North India as they demolished hindu temples and massacred community leaders to force conversion to islam


My base Model for Patel , Northern Merchant outside India is 105 ,
and 105 is a very healthy number equal to the Japanese Average

--

Regarding the 80IQ for India being bandied about

Virtually every Indian on the web is a Merchant or Brahmin caste
and even in India, all are well above 100, the white Avg

The Average is low because SC/ST and Peasants are 80% of the population and their IQ is dragged down by 10 due to malnutrition and illiteracy

The other reason is that the IQ test used is a pictorial ravens matrices test and has no verbal component like other IQ tests
Hence it does not catch Indian verbal strength
Most Indians are bilingual and tens of millions are trilingual

Anonymous said...

Mr. Patel, your experience seems fairly typical of that of a lot of Indian-Americans. One of my best friends is the first in his family to go to college and he's just been accepted into medical school. Another one of my friends is the first in his family to make it past 6th grade and he's also in a top ranked medical school. The children of uneducated Indians are doing shockingly well.

If ancedotes aren't enough, do I need to point out that Indians in the UK arrived as factory workers in the 1950s? Now they're outearning and academically massively outperforming whites. Or do I need to point out that Indo-Canadians are not particularly educated, but seem to post some impressive economic stats?

"If anything, I'd say that the North Indian kids of my generation are slightly greater achieving than the South Indian kids"

I wouldn't go that far (South Indian kids are doing really, really well), but you're quite right that North Indians are doing just fine in the U.S.

Patel-motel said...

Why is this even A question? Anonymous above certainly has a legitimate question whose answer carries a greater impact than anything remotely involving Indian IQ.

Isn't it obvious? Indian IQ, if you believe the fundamental assumptions of this blog, will go a long way to determining both what India looks like 50 years from now, and whether Indian immigration to the US is good policy. Will India become 1st world? Will it be plaqued by religious conflict? Will Indian kids be constantly texting their friends on their iPhones, wearing designer jeans with pre-made tears, and watching Hannah Montana like their American counterparts? Or will they be working on the farm? Will India join the rest of civilized humanity as a nation of peace? You may not think these questions are important or worth asking, but I bet Steve does, and so do most readers of this blog.

What are the implications of _Indian behavior_ for us, Steve?

...

Another good question is the impact of Indian ethnic nepotism and exclusionary practices in foreign lands and their detrimental effects on the native population. Try that.

...

Steve , the time and effort you waste on this nonsense should be spent on exposing how the Hindu community in America is using its wealth and political power to bring about the deskilling of the European American population.

I wonder what Steve thinks about this 'element' in his comments section. We've seen how diverse the readers of the blog are - Finns, Brazilians, Brits, plenty of Indians it seems. Yet, there's an element that is nothing more than nativist. Is this element something you aim to cater to Steve, or something you simply put up with? I can't tell.

I have a high degree of respect for American institutions. The institutions are why Indians prosper in America but not in India. American institutions + Indian culture (+ IQ?) = success. Yet nativism is at odds with the best American institutions. It's decidedly anti-capitalist. The HBD argument has convinced me to take seriously the idea that not all immigrants are capable of sustaining these American institutions. As someone who wishes to maintain these institutions, I support immigration from India. Indians work hard, study hard, have strong families, low crime rates, and have conservative values. (Same with Asians). I see these traits as very American. Combine them with what appears to be an above average IQ, and you have a recipe for American success.

I see the nativist argument as very unAmerican. It's backwards.

Anonymous said...

h said
--
and what are the implications for American whites?

--

Here is why Indian IQ is important for whites

The top 20% of India, despite malnutrition and bad social conditions are Fluent in English and the top 20% is also college educated

The top 20% currently in India has IQs of betweeen 102 and 113

The top 20% works out to 220 mil

This fluent in english , college educated, 220 mil, through the power of the internet and offshoring will suck out through wage and skill arbitrage, most white collar job in the western countries that does not need a local presence
Even lawyers and Wall Street Analysts are not safe

This has already happened in Wall Street CFA, Lawyers, and so on

--

Just google up offshoring and India
There is hardly any job that has not already started to migrate

--

Previously, it was thought that the over 100IQ in India was only 10 mil,
it was thought that the brahmins and upper castes are only 1% of India, not 20%

80IQ with SD = 15, and India would soon run out of brahmins and other upper caste off shore workers

whereas in actuality it is 220 mil,
an endless supply of brahmins and upper castes willing to work for 10% of wages

I actually saw an article by an Indian economist that the goal was 50 million jobs at $20k per year = 1 Trillion annually

Anonymous said...

Another one of my friends is the first in his family to make it past 6th grade and he's also in a top ranked medical school. The children of uneducated Indians are doing shockingly well.
---

If this continues then my model for base IQ for Dalits and Peasants must be moved up by about 5 points and the Current Indian IQ will become 91 instead of 86 and Future Indian IQ will become 98 instead of 93

--

No matter the family support, nobody with less than 105IQ can enter medical college in USA

Anonymous said...

anon wrote
--

Anecdotally, America is full of 2nd gen Patels in medicine and engineering. So don't discount them as a group....

---

In engineering, I have worked decades with both SIB and Patels

The patels are certainly competent,
and at least as good as the avg white engineer

but the SIBs match the far right tail of white engineers

nsam said...

slightly off-topic. if someone has a pdf of this article, let me know

Adaptive significance of the Indian caste system: an ecological perspective

M. Gadgil ; K. C. Malhotra

Published in: journal Annals of Human Biology, Volume 10, Issue 5 October 1983 , pages 465 - 477

Abstract

Indian society is an agglomeration of several thousand endogamous groups or castes each with a restricted geographical range and a hereditarily determine mode of subsistence. These reproductively isolated castes may be compared to biological species, and the society thought of as a biological community with each caste having its specific ecological niche. In this paper we examine the ecological-niche relationships of castes which are directly dependent on natural resources. Evidence is presented to show that castes living together in the same region had so organized their pattern of resource use as to avoid excessive intercaste competition for limiting resources. Furthermore, territorial division of the total range of the caste regulated intra-caste competition. Hence, a particular plant or animal resource in a given locality was used almost exclusively by a given lineage within a caste generation after generation. This favoured the cultural evolution of traditions ensuring sustainable use of natural resources. This must have contributed significantly to the stability of Indian caste society over several thousand years. The collapse of the base of natural resources and increasing monetarization of the economy has, however, destroyed the earlier complementarity between the different castes and led to increasing conflicts between them in recent years.

Proofreader said...

Patel Motel:

What you call "nativism" is simply ethnocentrism: healthy defense of self-interests in one's extended kin and way of life.
In other words, exactly what you do when you claim Indians are good for the USA. You're furthering your own interests; it's Indian "nativism", with the difference that Indians do much beter abroad than in India, so your kind of nativism supports emigration of your co-ethnics or perhaps only members of your caste.
Why is that? Is it all those low IQ Dalits and peasants dragging you down?

Surely 200 million bright Indians should more than compensate for the rest of the population.

Anonymous said...

rec1man here
--

Understanding the implications of Indian dominance in spelling bees

--
To win in spelling bees, one needs mastery of
1. English
2. Latin
3. Greek
4. French
5. German

and some familiarity with other european languages

All the Indian kids who are in spelling bees are at least bilingual at home

--

In India all the upper castes need fluency in at least 3 languages

1. English in latin alphabet
2. Hindi ( indo-european ) in Devnagari script
3. Local Language ( may or may not be indo-european, dravidian in south india ) in local script

In the big scheme of things English and the latin alphabet is just one more Indo european language with its own script
In India there are at least 20 Indo-european languages with 10 different scripts and 5 dravidian languages with their own scripts

Once english has been mastered, it is a small step to also master German, French, Spanish and Italian
all of which use the english alphabet

The Germans and French for several decades have run evening classes to spread their language in India

My guess is within 10 years, off-shoring from outside the anglosphere will also happen
in a big way

Already the germans have started offshoring in Chennai in south India

I also submit that the ravens matrix understates functional indian iq

Autistics score very high in ravens matrices and due to their verbal deficits have trouble functioning

Whereas, I predict that Indian functioning is beyond their ravens matrices because of their enhanced verbal skills

Patel-motel said...

What you call "nativism" is simply ethnocentrism: healthy defense of self-interests in one's extended kin and way of life.

I'm sure that's what nativists believe it is. That doesn't make it true.

In other words, exactly what you do when you claim Indians are good for the USA. You're furthering your own interests; it's Indian "nativism", with the difference that Indians do much beter abroad than in India, so your kind of nativism supports emigration of your co-ethnics or perhaps only members of your caste.

No, my views are different from the nativists. I welcome anyone who's willing to work hard and continue to support American institutions like free markets, property rights, rule of law, religious tolerance, Bill of Rights, etc that have made this country successful. I support legal immigration from Eastern Europe, China, Singapore, Taiwan, Hong Kong, and the Koreas in addition to India. Heck, if there was a test that could filter out 'good immigrants', I'd welcome anyone of any race that could pass this test. These immigrants, much like those from Europe from the 19th and 20th century, will easily turn into Americans and add to the country.

So my views would best be described as "culturalist" or "human capital-ist". They're functional and utilitarian, resting on conditionals. The nativist view on the other hand is purely race based, without even regard to IQ. Further, it's anti-capitalist. They may believe they're furthering their own self-interest, but they're not. People in South America also believe they're voting for their own self-interest when voting for Chavez and Morales, but they're not. The peasants in Russia also thought they were furthering their own self-interest in supporting the Bolsheviks, but clearly, they weren't. Look at the nativist arguments upthread. They're not about keeping out immigrants with low human capital; they're about bashing Indian-American success with anti-capitalist rhetoric ("nepotism", "exclusionary practices", "deskilling the native population").

What separates America from the rest of the world is that in the rest of the world, when someone succeeds, their neighbors become envious and try to knock him down. In America, when someone succeeds, the neighbors congratulate him. In the 99% white Southern town I grew up in, each year at graduation, when one of the few Indian kids in the class would invariably be either valedictorian or salutatorian, the whites didn't make threats or vandalize his house. Rather, they applauded when he made the speech, complimented his parents, and praised the culture in which he grew up. I submit that there are very few places in the world in which this would happen. It's praiseworthy.

If the nativist view becomes the majority view in the US, say goodbye to the US as a world leader and say hello to the US as a banana republic. It'd be ironic since most HBD arguments seek to prevent the US turning into South America.

Kamo said...

""I classify Patel as Northern Merchant

Of course the Patel in the USA will be a millionaire, he has 115IQ equal to the jews and has 3000 years of making money in business"
"

One thing that is clear from reading some of these posts is that many here seem to lack a sophisticated understanding of the caste system outside Southern India.

Gujarati 'Patels' have NOT been in the moneymaking business 3000 years.

Patels (Amins, Desais etc) are basically a farming (peasant/landowning)caste (Kurmi).

They have been accorded de facto high caste status because various sub-castes of Kurmi have become economically dominant in Gujarat during Mughal rule (around 400 years ago), when they were employed as record keepers, tax collectors, and were granted land tenure (Patidars a.k.a Patels).

In more recent times Patidars have diverged from the general Kurmi masses. They have cemented their high caste status by adopting practices such as vegetarianism, practicing endogamy within their sub-caste and establishing regional economic dominance bypassing the merchants.

I am oversimplifying a bit to make the point that 'caste mobility' has not been uncommon in India (though it is generally accepted that Brahmins are at the top, and Dalits at the bottom). Keep in mind that until European colonialism Parsis were essentially low caste, small scale farmers, merchants and artisans

For a more comprehensive, if somewhat dated, analysis of caste and marriage practices in Gujarat see
this book


My personal views on Caste (social Jati not Hindu varna) is that it was functionally a very nepostistic, engogamous, labor union.

Imagine if all the Doctors in the United States became an endogamous group and remained this way for 500 years.

Wouldn't you expect their decedents to have a higher IQ on average than those who were descended from a similar caste of construction workers ?

Cyd the Kid said...

My personal views on Caste (social Jati not Hindu varna) is that it was functionally a very nepostistic, engogamous, labor union.

Imagine if all the Doctors in the United States became an endogamous group and remained this way for 500 years.

Wouldn't you expect their decedents to have a higher IQ on average than those who were descended from a similar caste of construction workers?


Yes, let's imagine that. But only after 50 years of unwanted, relentless immigration as Patel Motel suggests in order to not be deemed unwanted "elements" on this blog nor on the road towards a "banana republic". Talk about chutzpah or whatever the Indian word for it is.

Cyd the Kid said...

As an aside, why is Steve, the race realist, afraid of honest dialogue between the Indian contingent and "crazy, wacko, nativist, banana republicans"?

rec1man said...

Let me try to consider the nativist white viewpoint
--

The white percentage is dropping
That creates a demographic vacuum in the west

Border barriers will only slow but never fully stop the flow into empty lands
Read the history of Rome circa 300AD to 450AD


The western lands are becoming an empty vacuum

The blame for that lies solely with the white over-educated under-breeding, over-careeristic, abortion addicted, hermaphroditic ( trying to do mens jobs ), feminist movement

Anytime your fertility drops below 2, you are asking for trouble

As a better alternative consider Indira Nooyi, SIB, the Pepsi CEO, despite her career, she has 2 kids

Since the white women are aborting the next generation, a vacuum develops in the west

The question that nativist whites
must consider is which immigrant group will cause the least amount of harm to the native whites

1. Muslims - will lead to sharia laws and terrorism as well as a low IQ population

2. Hispanics will lead to crime and loss of english in society

3. South east asia will lead to a low IQ population

4. East Asians, a high IQ population but have to consider what happens to the diaspora when China eventually tries to topple the west. The behavior of the chinese diaspora during the Tibet demonstrations during he Olympic torch is not encouraging

5. The only remaining alternative, warts and all,
is upper and middle caste Indians

rec1man said...

http://money.cnn.com/2006/02/22/news/companies/banks_outsourcing/index.htm

Going one step further

JPMorgan Chase, however, is taking its investment banking activities abroad a step further. The company was one of the first investment banks to not only transfer the company's back-office and call-center operations but to also hire research analysts in India, Hong Kong and Singapore to complement its U.S.-based research team.

After piloting the program in 2003 with about 1,200 employees in India, the company announced late last year that it plans to have a total of 9,000 employees in India by the end of 2007, with one-third of those employees working for the company's investment banking unit. Not only will the Indian workers handle research and analysis for the bank but will also be responsible for its foreign exchange trades and its highly complicated credit derivatives contracts.

Some experts expect that as banks become more comfortable with their offshore operations and foreign talent becomes more attuned to the companies' way of doing business, financial institutions may even shift some deal-making responsibility onto its foreign employees.

--

Brahmins and upper castes with some on the job training can do the high end wall street stuff just as easily as high IQ whites
and much better than avg IQ whites
for 10% the cost

The blame must lie in the greedy western corporations and the western consumer who prefers to buy cheaper goods made overseas
not on the Indian guy who is simply trying to make an honest buck

Why would a wall street brokerage pay $300K for a Harvard MBA, when he can get a 140IQ SIB for $30K

Cyd the Kid said...

rec1man's solution is no solution. Accepting the least of "5 evils" still leaves the west with a problem at the end of the day. We have history to judge how that experiment will end by looking at the different Indian diasporas worldwide and seeing their effects on the native populations.

Falling below the replacement rate is not answered by bringing in "outside help". It is answered by procreating. Procreation is hampered with competing ethnics within the same living space. The Japanese are dealing with this by maintaining their monocultural country and tightening their belts. Not by bringing in "high IQ" Indians to help out.

Why would a wall street brokerage pay $300K for a Harvard MBA, when he can get a 140IQ SIB for $30K

Yes, that's the selling point and the lure for business to waste their time and money on India. Yet, simply by dealing with any part of the outsourcing experiment enlightens one to the fact that reality is far from the selling point.

rec1man said...

cyd the kid said
----
rec1man's solution is no solution. Accepting the least of "5 evils" still leaves the west with a problem at the end of the day. We have history to judge how that experiment will end by looking at the different Indian diasporas worldwide and seeing their effects on the native populations.
---

OK, there has been violence involving the hindu diaspora, only in a few places
First the caribbean, where they face negro violence and second in Fiji, where the native fijians have done several coups

In no place have the hindu diaspora resorted to violence
against natives

The sikhs have some violence but it is mostly among themselves and against the muslims

The hindu tamils in England have resorted to violence against the muslims, never against whites
Thanks to the hindu tamils, large parts of islamically no-go england have been freed in London

The sikhs have also freed some islamically no-go areas

The hindu tamils and sikhs have done what the cops could not do, make the muslims back down

rec1man said...

http://www.asahi.com/english/asianet/hatsu...atsu080502.html

India as an Emerging "Brain Power"

By Masanori Kondo Senior Associate Professor (Development Economics, Indian Economy)International Christian University, Tokyo

2008/05/02

PHOTO:Jansinee Kankaew

A friend of mine who lives in Koto Ward, Tokyo, told me, “We have so many Indians living in our condominium that our notices come with English translations these days.” The number of Indian residents in Japan is now up to 17,500, and over sixty percent of them are IT engineers and their families. Among the Japanese community, they enjoy a favorable reputation as being polite and courteous neighbors.

These days many American companies have substantial research and development (R&D) activities in India. They are aggressively recruiting the best Indians as part of their global human resource strategy. This trend is backed by the emergence of India-born CEOs in major multinational corporations, including McKinsey, Citigroup, Vodafone and PepsiCo.

How are things in Japan, then? The total value of IT software exported by India to Japan was an insignificant three percent of its total IT exports. Though some Japanese companies hire Chinese employees, there are almost none that hire Indians to work at their company headquarters.

Besides, the number of Indian students in Japan is only five hundred. This is no match for the seventy thousand Chinese students that are in Japan, and it is even less than half the number of students from far smaller countries like Nepal and Sri Lanka. Interchange with Indians living in Japan is also limited.

Traditionally, Indians have always held a good image of Japan. Most of the Indian students who come to study in Japan develop a strong affinity to the country by the time they return home. However, as there are not many successful career patterns for “Japan experts,” Japan has become a less attractive destination for Indians to study. It leads to the vicious cycle of Japanese companies finding it difficult to enter the Indian market with little knowledge of India, and fewer Indians getting hired by Japanese companies.

Many Japanese companies tend to look upon India much in the same way as they viewed Southeast Asia that brought much success two decades ago. In other words, Japanese companies see India as a source of “labor” rather than “brains.” A former high-ranking Indian official, who is a Japanophile, pointed out: “Whereas Japanese people tend to measure the intellectual level of the people of a nation by per-capita income, Indian elites assess the abilities of their opponents based on their English prowess. And that is what causes a psychological gap between the Japanese and the Indians.

Since only Japanese people are involved, accumulated information on India tends to become one-sided in Japan. There are plenty of cases where failures and setbacks in business and ODA all get blamed on the catch-all, “It’s the fault of the Indians.” That is quite different from what I heard from a South Korean business organization that has proved successful in India. An official claimed, “In dealing with India, we have nothing to complain about. We simply stick to doing what the Romans do.”

According to Prof. K. Momaya, the Indian Institute of Technology (IIT) in Delhi welcomes some fifty delegations from Japan every year. But alas, there are precious few cases where these visits actually lead to some concrete project getting implemented. Delegations from the United States, Europe and South Korea are much less in number, but they constantly leave their mark and bear fruit in such forms as new labs, joint research and recruitment.

Unfortunately Japan has a reputation across India as a country that keeps on dispatching large delegations with no follow-ups. It has to be reminded that there are two hundred IIT graduates working in Japan. Most of them work for non-Japanese companies, Including the top official of Citibank in Japan. It makes more sense to meet these graduates here in Japan for information exchange before sending fruitless delegations to India.

rec1man said...

So who unleashed the SIB on the white middle class
--

Answer the tithing given to Indian missionary churches by the white middle class

--

The classic method of spreading xtianity is to first convert the elite, and then use the native elites to convert the native lower classes

By 1900, the xtian missionaries had 400 years of failures of trying to convert the brahmins

So they decided to work from the bottom up
They noticed in south India, it was possible to ethnically separate the brahmins from the masses

The first tool they used to whip up the masses was the Aryan Invasion Theory
In traditional hinduism there is no race memory of any invasion
The very earliest texts , 2000BC already show the caste system in place
Using this new theory, 95% of the south Indian population could in theory be turned against the brahmins

Around 1900, the SIBs had a comfortable middle class life in south India getting rents from agricultural lands and running the civil service under the british

The hindu temples also had rent paying agricultural lands
Many thousands of SIBs had jobs as personal priests for the merchant and landlord classes

The effect of the Church and British Funded Dravidianist movement was to remove the SIBs from each and every ecological niche

The salaries for priests got cut
The merchants and large landlords stopped using brahmin priests, AA was used in the civil service
The SIBs moved to Engineering and Medicine and Accounting and to other parts of India

With Church backing the non-brahmin castes started raising AA from 20% to 50% to 70%
As the SIBs started to migrate away, many of the village temples lost their priests and this gave an opening to the missionaries



Essentially as AA started squeezing out the SIBs, the SIBs saw an opening in the US using the F1-scholarships,

and once established in silicon valley, the white corporate barons saw that they had a new large pool of low priced talent

which leads to Software outsourcing and soon every other form of white collar outsourcing to India to directly tap into the SIB talent pool

rec1man said...

The threat to the white middle class from upper caste women
---

Unlike the white middle class women who seem to be graduating in pregnancy-101 and cheerleading-101 and per common wisdom are very weak in math. And even those who go to college do fuzzy soft courses

A large number of upper caste women are good in math
and those who go to college try to do math, science, engineering, accounting, business, software etc

Only the really dumb go to college to do the soft fuzzy stuff

This is true even in the diaspora

I work in a medium sized engineering company that has about 200 engineers and with 20 women, of these 10 are upper caste indian women from the diaspora

rec1man said...

Francis Xavier was the pioneer of anti-Brahmanism which was adopted in due course as a major plank in the missionary propaganda by all Christian denominations. Lord Minto, Governor General of India from 1807 to 1812, submitted a Note to his superiors in London when the British Parliament was debating whether missionaries should be permitted in East India Company’s domain under the Charter of 1813. He enclosed with his Note some “propaganda material used by the missionaries” and, referring to one missionary tract in particular, wrote: “The remainder of this tract seems to aim principally at a general massacre of the Brahmanas” (M. D. David (ed.), Western Colonialism in Asia and Christianity, Bombay, 1988, p. 85).

Many of V.T. Rajshekar’s brochures are transcripts of lectures at Christian institutions, and one wonders if the latter are aware of the more eccentric parts of his work, e.g. he is the only Indian to merit a mention in an authoritative study (Poliakov 1994) of contemporary anti-Semitism. His anti-Brahminism is also moulded after the anti-Semitic model,

Anonymous said...

Recman points out to an interesting phenomenon about Islamic rule playing a dysgenic effect on IQ in Northern South Asia. I was wondering if there has been a similar effect in Southern Europe. Steve himself pointed out about the limited contributions of Iberians in the sciences after the Islamic age. Of course one cannot ignore the mighty empires built and great explorations undertaken by both Spain and Portugal (After all no one is claiming their IQ is as low as Africans, it is definitely just slightly lower than the North). However the underachievement of Mediterranean Europe (I am taking Northern Italy and Southern France in the northern group) vis a vis Northern Europe in the post industrial age might also be explained by the same phenomenon (Arabo-Berber rule in Hispania and Turkish rule in South Eastern Europe). Could it also explain why Pakistan finds it hard to catch up with India?

rec1man said...

Recman points out to an interesting phenomenon about Islamic rule playing a dysgenic effect on IQ in Northern South Asia. I was wondering if there has been a similar effect in Southern Europe.

--

First of all
Per MtDNA, North Afrioans are 12% negro MtDNA

Next, there were a few Nubian black pharoahs who must have added to the miscegenation in north africa

Next, During Pax-romana, I am sure many black slaves were shipped to europe where they miscegenated

Next, during islamic rule, many blacks were imported to iberia where they miscegenated

Next, Anti-miscegenation laws went into effect only about 1650
For about 150 years before that,
the portugese had imported millions of black slaves, and miscegenated for 150 years

It is estimated that the portuguese are 15% black, as in brazil

Next of course the islamic massacres of the elite iberians

---

Regarding Pakistan

It has no brahmins and very few upper castes ( they fled to India )

The caste composition of Pakistan
Northern Merchants = 5% ( 102IQ )
Peasants = 75% ( 88IQ )
Dalits = 20% ( 75IQ )

Apply islam deficit due to inbreeding, mullahs etc, -10IQ

Avg IQ = 76

Its average IQ is 10 points below India and it has no brahmins for the high end, and very few merchants

The upper castes fled to India in 1947 and did not convert to islam


Hence the pakistani nukes and missiles are from china and north korea and Pakistan has no IITs, almost no science PhDs and no software

rec1man said...

Consider effect of islam on greece

what was greece like compared to rest of europe in 700AD vs today

rec1man said...

Turkey vs Greece
---

Turks are 85% greek by blood

While the original invaders were asiatic, they raped and forcibly converted the white greek xtians in turkey and hence the turks are now 85% greek by blood

I think the IQ of turkey is 90 vs IQ of greece is 94

The IQ of greece is truncated by 5 due to islamic massacres and the real IQ of greece is 99 whereas the IQ of Turkey is reduced by 10IQ
thanks to islam
and the real pre-islamic IQ of Turkey is 100

rec1man said...

swaminomics.org

Bharat Drowning or Bharat Rising?

By Swaminathan S. Anklesaria Aiyar

India has a world-class elite sitting on top of hundreds of millions with low skills and literacy. This accounts for the title of a new study on India's educational tragedy — 'India Shining and Bharat Drowning' — by Jishnu Das of the World Bank and Tristan Zajonc of Harvard University.

What does this imply for India's future? Das and Zajonc say that if Indian firms adopt a Ford Model-T approach — where a few skilled managers use many unskilled workers — then India Shining (the upper crust) can act as a rising tide that lifts all boats. Bharat Drowning will become Bharat Rising. But, if Indian firms progressively become skill-intensive, India may end up with islands of privilege in an ocean of deprivation.

The researchers have not characterised our educational tragedy fully. The skilled upper-crust has been educated mainly in private schools, and the dregs in moribund government schools. The Indian Institutes of Technology and Management represent successes in public education, but the students who get in are mainly from private schools. So, a better title for the study might have been "Private Schools Shining and Government Schools Drowning".

Das and Zajonc use a new methodology to compare maths tests across countries. They compare maths test results of Grade 9 students in 2003 in two states, Orissa and Rajasthan, with students in 49 countries. These two states perform worse than 43 of these countries. Few readers will be surprised.

But while most students in Orissa and Rajasthan fare poorly, the upper crust fares very well. The top 5% of children scored 577 in Orissa and 544 in Rajasthan, well above the US average of 504. Assuming that these two states are representative of all India — an underestimate, surely — then for every 10 top performers in the US, India has 4. However, for every 10 low performers in the US, India has 200.

The top performance in 2003 came from Singapore (605 marks), with Korea second at 589 marks. The US ranked only 18th (504 marks). The performance of middle-income countries — including oil-rich ones — was surprisingly bad. Indeed, Orissa (404) and Rajasthan (382) fared quite well compared with much richer places like Egypt (406), Bahrain (401), Chile (387), Morocco (387), and the Philippines (378). Far below came Saudi Arabia (332) and South Africa (264), both of which have substantial per capita incomes.

India is the second poorest country on the list, and Orissa and Rajasthan are among the poorer Indian states. So, the data may give the impression that India is doing well for its income level. This is probably a mistaken impression. The study considers only kids at school. And in India only 53% of kids are enrolled in secondary school, against 90% in South Africa. If we consider all children rather than those at school, Orissa and Rajasthan may come even lower down in the list.

Let us return to the big issue Das and Zajonc pose. Will India follow the Model-T path of development that uses lots of low-skilled labour, and hence uplifts the poor? Or will it follow the high-tech path, based overwhelmingly on skills, leaving out the unskilled poor?

Pessimists have a case. Technological change means that fewer and fewer people are required for production. Tata Motors and Bajaj Auto have doubled their production while halving their workforces. Infotech companies export $40 billion but employ only two million people, a tiny fraction of India's workforce of 450 million. This accounts for fears of Bharat Drowning.

However, i am an optimist. Despite our educational catastrophe, we have averaged almost 9% growth for five years. Bad education is a constraint, but not a binding one. A slowdown is coming, yet India should average 7% over the next 25 years. With good education we would do better, but 7% is still miracle growth.

Because of its huge population, India's top 5% equals 55 million people, a large pool of skills. Despite this skill shortages have arisen, and so every part of the private sector is investing in training. This looks capable of improving most skills, sustaining rapid growth for two decades and giving time for education to catch up.

Consider the infotech industry. For every high-skilled software engineer or BPO worker, four other workers provide support services in transport, catering construction and maintenance. Most of these are decent jobs. So, a Model-T approach is not essential. An infotech workforce of 50 million can create ancillary jobs for 200 million.

Infotech is only a small part of the India Shining story. Our 9% growth has been driven much more by trade, transport, restaurants, construction, social services, finance and communications. High skills will help in these sectors, but the majority of jobs will need only modest skills.

Vested interests make government schools difficult to reform. But as incomes rise and people progressively send their kids to private schools, skills will improve. Four states have proposed school vouchers, and perhaps a new trend has begun. Governments may soon fund millions of poor people to send their children to better private schools. Possibly Das and Zajonc will one day write another paper titled "Government Schools Drowning and Bharat Rising".

rec1man said...

IQ study in muslim upper caste families in India
Inbreeding causes muslim loss of 11 IQ

Inbreeding depression and intelligence quotient among north Indian children.

Badaruddoza, Afzal M.

Department of Zoology, Aligarh Muslim University, India.

This study presents the assessment of inbreeding depression on the intelligence quotient among north Indian Muslim Children of school age. The Wechsler Intelligence Scale for Children (WISC-R)-74 was given to the children in both groups (50 each non-inbred and inbred of the first-cousin status), aged 6 to 11 years and from the same socio-economic status. The change of the mean follows genetic theory; however, the nature of the change in variance seems to be somewhat different.

PIP: The level of inbreeding depression on the intelligence quotient (IQ) of North Indian Muslim schoolchildren was assessed in a survey conducted in Aligarh. The 50 inbred children were products of marriages between first cousins; their mean age was 7.7 years (range, 6-11 years). A significant (p 0.001) negative association was found between inbreeding and score on the Weschler Intelligence Scale for Children (WISC-C).

In addition, the weighted mean IQ of inbred children )88.4 + or - 1.37) differed significant (p 0.001) from that recorded among 50 noninbred controls of similar age and socioeconomic status (99.6 + or - 2.0).


The group means for both verbal and performance IQ subscales differed significantly and in the expected direction between subjects and controls, but the lower variance recorded in the inbred group did not conform to genetic theory. However, data do not always demonstrate a clear trend of linear increase in phenotypic variance with inbreeding in human populations. Additional surveys in other populations and for various inbreeding levels are recommended

Anonymous said...

Rec1man, what kind of castes make up the populations of Bangladesh, Sri Lanka and Nepal? Will they share India's prosperity (I have no hope for Pakistan, it is a failed state)?

Anonymous said...

This xtian missionary site has a detailed ethnic breakdown of the world including India. Might be useful to buy the data for purposes of the research study.

http://www.joshuaproject.net/

rec1man said...

anon said
---
Rec1man, what kind of castes make up the populations of Bangladesh, Sri Lanka and Nepal? Will they share India's prosperity (I have no hope for Pakistan, it is a failed state)?
---

Sri Lanka consists of

Hindus -
Southern Merchants 5%
Dalits 5%
Southern Peasants 10%


Muslims 10%

Buddhists 70%

The southern merchants in sri lanka are at very high IQ
IMHO just 4 IQ below southern brahmin of 113IQ
Southern Sri Lankan Merchant, Velala, Pillai etc = 109IQ,
even higher than northern brahmin
of 108IQ
whereas southern merchant in India is 105IQ

Sri Lanka was conquered 1000 years ago by tamils and IMHO the more adventerous tamils migrated to sri lanka

The buddhists are generic north indian peasants, 88IQ
In addition, they follow buddhism wherein the priests are celibate, unlike hinduism wherein the brahmins produce lots of kids

This means the higher IQ segment of the buddhists is truncated like the catholics

The reason the civil war started was because the tamils of much higher IQ were wiping out the sinhalese in open competition and the sinhalese started AA

As far as the future goes, half the tamils have been killed or exiled as refugees
The sri lankan tamils do amazingly well in canada and UK given their caste background
( 25% untouchable, 50% peasant, 25% merchant/ landlord )

The sinhalese who are on the verge of winning the civil war are of no more than 88IQ and there are 10% muslims with about 80IQ
In short, I expect sri lanka in the long term to be no more than Fiji or Mauritius

In the short term, the sri lankans are whoring themselves by giving bases to the chinese etc for large sums of money and this would pump the economy

--

Pakistan
Upper castes, 5%, 102IQ
Peasants, 75%, 88IQ
Dalits, 20%, 75IQ
Islam penalty -10IQ
Average = 76IQ

( afghanistan is 78IQ )

Bangladesh
Upper castes, 5%, 102IQ
Peasants, 55%, 88IQ
Dalits, 40%, 75IQ
Islam penalty -10IQ
Average = 73IQ

A large number of namasudra dalits in bengal converted to islam, along with a lot of aboriginal tribes

10 million bangladeshi muslims have migrated to India due to extreme poverty ( and now taking up jihad and bomb blasts in India, Bangladeshi muslim immigrants are far more dangerous than mexicans who are xtians )
---

As far as nepal goes
it is much poorer than India and had iodine deficiency and has a large number of aboriginal tribes and now has a maoist regime
IQ was measured at 78, and with nutrition may reach 88IQ
It suffers from african levels of poverty

rec1man said...

This xtian missionary site has a detailed ethnic breakdown of the world including India. Might be useful to buy the data for purposes of the research study.

http://www.joshuaproject.net/

--

The more they stir up the lower castes the more the lower castes who are the majority increase AA
forcing the upper castes to take away jobs from the white middle class

Anonymous said...

What is interesting is that the table of ranking of achievement in maths in the paper 'India Shining and Bharat Drowning' — by Jishnu Das and Tristan Zajonc mirrors ‘IQ and the Wealth of nations’ data with the North East Asians coming first followed immediately by the Europeans.

rec1man said...

anon said
---
What is interesting is that the table of ranking of achievement in maths in the paper 'India Shining and Bharat Drowning' — by Jishnu Das and Tristan Zajonc mirrors ‘IQ and the Wealth of nations’ data with the North East Asians coming first followed immediately by the Europeans.
---

Not quite true

The author has disaggregated the Indian average score into the top 5%, northern brahmins and the average

The northern brahmins score slightly below Singapore levels
and well above US white levels

whereas the Indian average in these 2 backward northern states
is slightly above Philipines 86IQ
My model shows current Indian IQ at 86IQ

By interpolating between Singapore scores (108IQ) @ 605 and US scores
( 100IQ ) @504, the northern brahmins in these 2 poor northern states are at 105IQ whereas my model has the northern brahmins at 108IQ

rec1man said...

Over-emphasis on selection factor when describing Indian diaspora in the USA

Every ethnic immigrant group has the same minium selection level for immigration to US
So why is the Indian diaspora alone singled out to explain high performance

In addition, the second generation of Indian diaspora in the US must reflect regression to the mean
and here is where we find over achievement in SAT, medical college, spelling bees, etc

Anonymous said...

Every ethnic immigrant group has the same minium selection level for immigration to US

Not completely true due to the peculiarities of the immigration system. For example the Chinese and Russians have had substantial populations immigrating through the Asylee and Refugee programs. Today 3x as many Russians immigrate through the Asylee/Refugee route as do through the employment based routes and 30% of overall Chinese immigration is through the Asylee/Refugee route. These populations are to a large extent being selected only for their ability to convince an immigration judge.

Further, the preferred immigration vehicle for Europeans is to come in on a visa or a visa waiver and then marry an American. Again, these people are not being selected for intelligence.

rec1man said...

anon wrote
---
Further, the preferred immigration vehicle for Europeans is to come in on a visa or a visa waiver and then marry an American. Again, these people are not being selected for intelligence

---

The selection for intelligence only happens at the primary Indian immigrant, then he brings in his family which may not be as high IQ

It used to be that the Indians who got immigration had a high value in the Indian marraige market
and could get a dumb pretty wife
( the Indian equivalent of dumb blond trophy wife )
I have seen 2 or 3 bald ( at 26 )
Indians ( circa 1985 )with really beautiful wives
and trust me these wives were not high IQ

About 80% of immigrant visas are family reunification ( first and second preference ), skills are just 20% ( third preference )

And as far as the next generation, there is no selection, simply regression to the mean
And it is this generation that is sweeping the SATs the medical college seats and the spelling bees

And speaking of spelling bees
I saw the movie Akeelah and the bee
( 2006 ), they showed a hispanic kid, a black kid, a mixed race chinese kid and several wasps and zero Indians
Even by 2006, Indians had won the last 7 out of 10 years

Whereas Spellbound which is a documentary showed all the contestants of 2002, which had a couple of Indians, including the winner

Anonymous said...

About 80% of immigrant visas are family reunification ( first and second preference ), skills are just 20% ( third preference )

The modern immigration system is a relatively recent phenomenon. The US was populated using the dregs of European society similar to the lower castes in India. When seen from this perspective all Indian immigration to the US is top tier.

Is there any data available on the performance of Indians from the lower castes migrating to the US?

rec1man said...

anon said
---
Is there any data available on the performance of Indians from the lower castes migrating to the US?

---
There are next to zero dalits in the US
There are thousands of Dalit organisations in the USA run by white xtian missionaries

one of the IQ segment in the US consists of the peasant Jat
Sikh Taxi drivers and Farmers, also found in Vancouver and UK
Blue collar middle class, high school complete

The very lowest Indian IQ segment in the US is the caribean hindus,
50% dalit and 50% peasant blend

rec1man said...

Brahmin teachers help Dalits and Peasants pass IIT exam
--

30 of the most talented Dalit and peasant students are chosen out of the 6000 who compete to join coaching class
2 or 3 SD above the mean
--

http://ia.rediff.com/money/2006/aug/16iit1.htm

Bihar's tiny school is churning out IIT-ians

Manjeet Kriplani, BusinessWeek | August 16, 2006




Top Emailed Features

• Why the US is an economic burden on the world
• 30 tax-smart ways to plan your salary package
• Finally, a car that runs on water!
Tell us
• Ask a question
Advertisements
• Master the Stock Market
• Industry Market
• Business Guru speaks
Moneywiz
• Stocks & MFs





Every April, some 230,000 Indian youths sharpen their pencils and sit for the intensely competitive entrance exam to the Indian Institutes of Technology (IITs) -- the seven prestigious schools that train India's top-notch engineers and entrepreneurs. After the grueling six-hour test, only 5,000 students are offered a place in the IITs.

Most come from middle-class backgrounds and prepare for the exams through private coaching. But in the past few years, a small group of desperately poor, talented students have made it into the IITs, thanks to the Ramanujan School of Mathematics.

The school, named after a famous Indian mathematician, is even more intense than the IITs themselves. Located in Patna, the capital of Bihar, one of India's least developed states, the Ramanujan School trains just 30 students a year to take the IIT exam.

* Personal Reflections by Some Ultra Competitive People
* Competition Through the Decades
* Yes, Winning Is Still The Only Thing

Anand Kumar, 33, a local mathematician, and Abhayanand, 52, Patna's deputy director general of police and a lover of physics, founded the school in 2003 to help promising locals get ahead in the caste-based society.

They scoured Bihar's least privileged communities for 30 bright students to coach for the exam, providing free lessons and housing. They call their group the Super 30. "Intelligence is not birth-specific," says Abhayanand. In the first year, 16 of the group made it into the IITs. The next year, 22 made it. "This year," Kumar says confidently, "all 30 will get into the IITs."

Santosh Kumar, 19 (no relation to Anand Kumar), is one of this year's Super 30, and his story is typical of his classmates. He's from Dumari, a village in the Bihata district, about 22 miles from Patna.

Nearly all the village's 3,000 residents scratch out meager livings as farmers. Santosh's sister and three brothers studied up to 10th grade but then returned to the fields. "Studying further required money, so that was that," he says.

* Poll: How Competitive Are You?
* Very Conspicuous Consumption

Village hero

Santosh wanted more. His school had no roof, no doors, and no teachers half the time, but he borrowed books and tutored two young students for 70 cents a month. He also sold vegetables the family cultivated in a nearby market town.

"I didn't even know which subjects I was good at, and I'd certainly never heard of IIT. No one had," he says. Then an eighth-grade teacher noticed his mathematical talent and encouraged him to study further.

Santosh saw that "education was the only way out of poverty," he says. At first, he planned to study so he could become an officer in the Indian civil service. After high school, he enrolled in the Patna College of Commerce, and then he heard about the IITs and the Super 30.

"I went straightaway to Anand Kumar and told him: 'I dream of IIT, but I have no money.' He gave me his test, and I came second in the class. [He] let me into his Super 30 -- free," Santosh recalls.

For seven months, Santosh studied every morning for four hours, then sat down for a three-hour test in math, physics, and chemistry, and after a break studied three more hours.

From six to nine in the evening, he attended a class in the same subjects and prepared for the next day's test until 2 a.m. His work paid off last spring, when he won a coveted seat at the IIT in Kharagpur, near Calcutta. (He ranked 3,537 out of the 5,000 students chosen.)

Santosh now aims to earn a doctorate in chemistry and become an inventor. His hero is APJ Abdul Kalam, India's current President and father of the nation's missile program.

Just as important, Santosh is on track to becoming the first person from Dumari to graduate from a university, making him a hero in the eyes of his village.

Anonymous said...

Here is a bit of info that might shed some light on the subject.

http://www.asianweek.com/2008/10/30/the-myth-of-filipino-inferiority/#more-9227

If you look at the table provided which breaks down math score of 9th graders by ethnicity in CA, you will see that Asian Indians are scoring similar to whites with same percentage of high achievers and a slightly higher percentage of low performers.

Two things must be taken into account with the scores.

1. These kids are most likely first generation native borns with at least one parent as an engineer immigrant, and thus highly selected for their IQ. This indicated that they have not completely reverted to the mean.

2. Being a kid of hard driving immigrants, particularly to engineering parents, these kids should outperform their potential, especially in a math test.

Brahmans are highly over represented in the Indians that migrated to the U.S.

This indicated that the IQ of the immigrant group, Brahman or not, might be in the low to mid 90's.

One data point does not a trend make, maybe someone could collect more data along this line.

Anonymous said...

Recman1

5. The only remaining alternative, warts and all,
is upper and middle caste Indians

Whoa. No one caught this?

If you want to be surrounded by upper caste Indians go back to that shit hole you came from.

Anonymous said...

Brahmen IQ is not in the low to mid 90's, it is in the upper 110 or more. Regression towards the mean for Brahmens in the United States is 112. Test scores in California does not indicate Indians are lower in IQ, not to mention it does not mention caste composition. Indian Americans in California are possesing the lazy attitude every American has, thus despite having high IQ they perform below their IQ.