March 2, 2009

Petite Cops

David Simon, the creator of the HBO cop TV series "The Wire" complains in the Washington Post about a new Baltimore police policy of not releasing names of cops who shoot people unless the cops feel the shooting was unjustified (to prevent retaliation, ostensibly--which, indeed, is easier in the Internet age of looking up stuff about people):
On Feb. 17, when a 29-year-old officer responded to a domestic dispute in East Baltimore, ended up fighting for her gun and ultimately shot an unarmed 61-year-old man named Joseph Alfonso Forrest, the Sun reported the incident, during which Forrest died, as a brief item. It did not name the officer, Traci McKissick, or a police sergeant who later arrived at the scene to aid her and who also shot the man.

It didn't identify the pair the next day, either, because the Sun ran no full story on the shooting, as if officers battling for their weapons and unarmed 61-year-old citizens dying by police gunfire are no longer the grist of city journalism. At which point, one old police reporter lost his mind and began making calls.

No, the police spokesman would not identify the officers, and for more than 24 hours he would provide no information on whether either one of them had ever been involved in similar incidents. And that's the rub, of course. Without a name, there's no way for anyone to evaluate an officer's performance independently, to gauge his or her effectiveness and competence, to know whether he or she has shot one person or 10.

It turns out that McKissick -- who is described as physically diminutive -- had had her gun taken from her once before. In 2005, police sources said, she was in the passenger seat of a suspect's car as the suspect, who had not been properly secured, began driving away from the scene. McKissick pulled her gun, the suspect grabbed for it and a shot was fired into the rear seat. Eventually, the suspect got the weapon and threw it out of the car; it was never recovered. Charges were dropped on the suspect, according to his defense attorney, Warren Brown, after Brown alleged in court that McKissick's supervisors had rewritten reports, tailoring and sanitizing her performance.

And so on Feb. 17, the same officer may have again drawn her weapon only to find herself again at risk of losing the gun. The shooting may be good and legally justified, and perhaps McKissick has sufficient training and is a capable street officer. But in the new world of Baltimore, where officers who take life are no longer named or subject to public scrutiny, who can know?

Of course, my attention was diverted away from Mr. Simon's no doubt worthy crusade to a question that just doesn't get asked much these days: Why do we have "diminutive" lady cops anyway?

Officer McKissick is courageous -- the previous time she lost control of her gun, it was after jumping into a car trying to speed away from an arrest -- but she apparently doesn't have the upper body strength to get her out of situations her bravery gets her into without shots getting fired.

As a general proposition, when a 29-year-old cop is so weak that she gets herself put into a headlock by a 61-year-old man, bad stuff is likely to ensue.

My published articles are archived at iSteve.com -- Steve Sailer

78 comments:

dearieme said...

When I went to University my mother said "If you have trouble finding shops that sell clothing big enough for you, just go to the police station and ask where the bobbies buy their clothes." The days when the policemen were big fellows has long gone here too.

Jun said...

Why do we have "diminutive" lady cops anyway?

Exactly! [*shakes head and walks away*]

John Craig said...

It reminds me a little of that old controversy about New York City Fire Department hiring which was found to be "discriminatory" against women because fewer of them could pass the physical part of the exam, which included carrying a 160 pound sack for a certain distance. So they changed the exam so women would only have to carry an 80 pound sack. Does anyone know whatever became of that? Is the 80 pound sack still the standard for women?

Black Sea said...

Brian Nichols, a former college linebacker on trial in Atlanta for rape overpowered his jail guard, took her weapon, then went on a killling spree that included the judge in his case, the court reporter, a sherrif's deputy, and a Federal agent.

From Wikipedia:

Cynthia Hall, a 5'1″, 51-year-old sheriff's deputy was routinely assigned to guard the 6'1″ Nichols during his two trials under Judge Barnes. After Nichols arrived at the courthouse on a bus, Hall escorted him from a basement detention area to a holding cell on the 8th floor of the Fulton County Justice Tower. Deputy Dilcie Thomas said that on the morning of the attack, she urged Hall three times to get another deputy to go with her upstairs to a holding cell with Nichols, where he was going to change from jail garb before appearing in court. Hall told Thomas, “No, I got him.” She seemed to trust him and did not require that he wear the customary leg shackles, even though, the day before his attack, he had been caught with door hinges hidden in his shoes. The hinges could have been used as weapons. She escorted Nichols to the holding area where she was to remove his handcuffs so that he could change into civilian clothes. Hall released one cuff and turned Nichols around to unhook the remaining cuff, which was dangling from his wrist. Nichols brutally attacked the deputy, pushing her into another open cell. The video surveillance camera recorded as he overpowered the deputy hitting her so hard in the face her feet left the ground. He emerged from the cell with her gun belt which included her radio and weapon magazines. Nichols retrieved her keys from the floor and locked Deputy Hall in the cell. Nichols entered another cell and changed into his street clothes and was seen about 4 1/2 minutes later leaving the holding cell area. He used the keys to open a lock box where he armed himself with her Beretta .40 cal. semi-automatic pistol.[5] According to hospital sources, the deputy sustained significant brain injury, facial fractures and a large laceration to her forehead. After the attack, her condition was reported as critical, but she survived. Deputy Hall's injuries were so severe that doctors at Grady Memorial Hospital initially believed that she had sustained a gunshot wound to the face.[6]

jody said...

in modern american television and film, women can beat the crap out of two or three adult men at a time.

it's hollywood-ism that goes hand in hand with the now requisite black scientist.

bad guys, in the news as well as on television, remain mostly white.

Dennis Mangan said...

I don't agree that the problem here is that she is petite. A .38 Special, or whatever the cops use these days, is a huge equalizer; all you need is the strength to pull the trigger and the biggest perp drops. No, my guess is the problem is that she is a woman, without the aggressiveness and/or authority to keep perps under control, i.e. away from her and doing what she wants them to do.

Anonymous said...

Similar problems in our military. Huge double standard for men and women re physical fitness. And often the women aren't even held to those already low standards. Guy can't do 5 pull ups or run 5 miles, he gets cut from boot camp. Woman can't do 1 pull up or run a 15-minute mile, she still gets to graduate. Guy gets too fat, he gets kicked out of the military, while very obese women get to stay in.

Kevin K said...

Are there a lot of people lining up to be cops in Baltimore?

Frank said...

Also recall the 2005 Atlanta courthouse incident. A 5'1" women was assigned to guard a 6'1" 210 lbs suspect. He took away the gun and went on a murder spree.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brian_Nichols

Also, why are women allowed to perform at lower PT standards in the armed forces? Or that matter women firefighters? Is there a rational explanation for any of this?

Anonymous said...

The story is well worth reading in its entirety. Simon's point is that, as a police reporter for the "Baltimore Sun," he routinely got access to all sorts of police reports. When the cops tried to stonewall him, he called a friend who happened to be the chief judge, who then lectured the offending bureaucrat about Maryland open records laws.

No more. Apparently, "The Sun" has fallen to such a low state that it no longer routinely covers this sort of stuff. Baltimore police now regylarly withhold material that citizens have a legal right to view, and no one cares.

The question as to why we have diminutive police officers (or firefighters) is an entirely different one, easily answered in terms of political correctness. Male firefighters have an interesting term for their female counterparts - "firewatchers."

Anonymous said...

I've always maintained that any police officer entering the force should be able to complete 5 pull ups. That's hand's forward pull ups.
This would eliminate the weak, and reduce police officer deaths.
There are some women who would be able to do it. However, most women couldn't do ONE to save their lives. I know, because I've worked with literally thousands of women committed to physical fitness. Most cannot handle upper-body exercises with assuredness, if at all, related to their body weight.
As long as Police organizations nation-wide ignore this, police officer's will die, perps will die, because of hiring protocol unrelated to reality.
We don't have female professional football player's because the outcome is repetitive, and irrefutable. On a police force, they can lie, they can hide information, to confuse the politically correct public.
So police officer's die.

-Former Personal Trainer

Anonymous said...

There used to be minimum height/weight requirements for LEO's. They got struck down by the courts as discriminatory. The 1960's: the gift that keeps on giving.

The sheriff's departments in Georgia have tons of fat men, old men, females, and otherwise unqualified deputies. These departments have basically become jobs programs for county political machines. Thus, six foot Brian Nichols was able to overpower his 5'5" female deputy and shoot his way out of a building filled with LEO's, even though this particular building has been lampooned specifically for its difficult ingress and egress.

Be sure to tag this under Political Correctness Makes You Stupid, Steve.

--Senor Doug

ironrailsironweights said...

One thing I noticed on a trip to London a few years back is how most of the British cops had a much more impressive physical presence than their American counterparts. No doubt it's in part because they're unarmed, but the difference was easy to notice. It wasn't necessarily that they were large, it was something harder to define but definitely there.

Peter

Svigor said...

And obviously, a petite female cop is a provocation, to some demographics more than others.

rightsaidfred said...

Our society tries to "pencil in" equality by putting a cross section of the population in every job category. Thus we have 98 pound cops.

John Bagshaw said...

A woman in uniform, with handcuffs? I'd be putty in her hands.

albertosaurus said...

I blame the movies! Women in cinema are routinely depicted as physically equal to men.

Drew Barrimore is depicted in the movies as capable of kung-fuing a half dozen lrge angry men. Kiera Knightly is shown in King Athur as being able to fire a bow further than all the Saxons (big scary male invaders).

Knightly probably weighs 90 pounds. The Welsh longbow was reserved for men six feet tall who practiced (or rather trained)continuously. The Mary Rose when raised had more than 700 longbows aboard. Modern archers could not draw these bows - they were too heavy.

The skeletons of longbow archers show deformities from years of heavy bow drawing, just as modern power lifters have reformed skeletons from heavy lifting.

Women before the perfection of firearms in the fifteenth century were were not on the battlefield. They were simply too weak. This fact was seldom noted because it was so obvious. Women since the fifteenth century have been able to hold their own against men - if they are packing heat.

The reality of policework is like combat in some ways. Big cops get less resistance from street punks. But this ancient wisdom has been eroded by diversity regulations and the movies.

Al Pacino at 5'4", 110 lbs and 70 years old is shown in a recent film as a street cop. If the public sees enough of this kind of nonsense they will begin to think even "diminutive women" can be street cops.

Anonymous said...

Growing up in New York in the 1970s, I could never figure out why most female police officers were tiny. It seemed their average height was 5'1.

Michael Golden said...

Why do we have diminutive female cops? This is why:

Dothard v. Rawlinson, 433 U.S. 321 (1977)
Held:
To establish a prima facie case of employment discrimination, a plaintiff need only show that the facially neutral standards in question, such as . . . height and weight standards, select applicants for hire in a significantly discriminatory pattern, and here the showing of the disproportionate impact of the height and weight standards on women based on national statistics, rather than on comparative statistics of actual applicants, sufficed to make out a prima facie case.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/historics/USSC_CR_0433_0321_ZS.html

beowulf said...

Well clearly the NYFD found a workaround for this-- if you look at the pictures of the 343 firefighers who died in 9/11-- 343 white, black and latino men-- not a single woman.
http://www.nytimes.com/library/national/091101rescuers.html

as said...

Re: pull ups.

I've seen lots of little (i.e. petite) female gymnasts do a dozen pull ups with ease.

Could this be one reason why the famele cop happens to be so short? Only tiny girls can do pull-ups?

Is the pull up requirement strictly enforced?

Is it even possible for a tall big girl to do a pull up?

---

Also, it's harder for tall girls to do male push ups. It's easier for short girls.

Kwai-Chang said...

"I don't agree that the problem here is that she is petite. A .38 Special, or whatever the cops use these days, is a huge equalizer; all you need is the strength to pull the trigger and the biggest perp drops."

You seem to be missing the point. A more physically powerful cop wouldn't have to draw his weapon as often; that would result in fewer incidents of perps getting shot.

ironrailsironweights said...

I've always maintained that any police officer entering the force should be able to complete 5 pull ups. That's hand's forward pull ups. This would eliminate the weak, and reduce police officer deaths.

Here's a really tough requirement: members of the special forces division in the Russian army have to be able to complete 18 pull-ups from a dead hang, while wearing 10-kilogram flak jackets.

I don't agree that the problem here is that she is petite. A .38 Special, or whatever the cops use these days, is a huge equalizer; all you need is the strength to pull the trigger and the biggest perp drops.

Well yes, but the hope is that a more physically dominant cop would be less likely to have to resort to the use of firearms.

It reminds me a little of that old controversy about New York City Fire Department hiring which was found to be "discriminatory" against women because fewer of them could pass the physical part of the exam, which included carrying a 160 pound sack for a certain distance. So they changed the exam so women would only have to carry an 80 pound sack.

Well, if you're lying unconscious in a burning room, seconds away from a firey death, you'll be fine if a woman firefighter comes to your rescue.

So long as you don't weigh more than 80 pounds.



Peter

Jim O'Sullivan said...

John Linday the limosine liberal mayor of New York, was, I believe, the first mayor to kill height requirements for cops, because they discriminated against Hispanics (the requirements, that is). Obama will be America's Lindsay.

jody said...

one guy mentioned .38 special revolvers as an equalizer, but in reality, EVEN HANDGUNS have to be made smaller and less powerful so that all the females in a police or military unit can handle a standard issue weapon. and .38 special, which the police abandoned years ago, is even weaker than 9mm. in general, .38 special is not capable of putting down angry 200 pound men with one shot.

anybody who has handled a few real handguns can probably figure out that they are engineered with a male's handsize and grip strength in mind - many women often literally cannot operate the guns, that is to say, they have trouble loading the magazines all the way, racking the slide, getting their shorter fingers around the grip, reaching the safety and magazine release with their shorter fingers while already holding the gun, et cetera.

this is all aside from the problem of whether .40 smith & wesson or .357 magnum are too much for female police officers, or .45 acp is too much for female soldiers. 9mm is pretty much what you would default to when considering a mixed gender force.

i know in pennsylvania, state troopers must be at least 6 feet tall and have uncorrected 20/20 vision. at least that was the standard years ago. with ed rendell and the liberals controlling the state for a while, i don't know if that still stands.

PithyMe said...

I am a middle-aged woman. I repeatedly tell my friends & relatives, in the event they have to call 911 to rescue me from a thug, to be sure to notify the police department on the phone, that they are NOT to send any females, whether they are "diminutive" or not. I insist upon being rescued by a MAN with God given upper body strength, and not some waif who has been to The Gloria Steinem School of Feminist Claptrap. When my son & I watch programs on TV of the "Cops" variety, and I see these 85 pound women cops "wrestling" an agitator to the ground with the assistance of three burly guys, and she is little more than "in the way", I wonder what these guys are thinking having to work along side such HANDICAPS to their lives & the safety of others. Unbelievable ...

Anonymous said...

Its not just that big guys are going to get into less fights (Joseph Waumbagh makes this point in one of his police novels). I think that the .38 is a great leveller but it requires the will to use it. I suspect that the average man is more prepared to pull out a gun and use it in a way that most women wouldnt.

Most male cops, most men in fact, tasked with guarding someone like the rapist Nichols, would be looking for the opportunity to pump umpteen rounds into him at the slightest provocation. I dont think women do to anything like the same extent.

In Bonfire of the Vanities, there is a courtroom scene where Wolfe describes this phenomenon. The guards/police are just itching for a chance to shoot some gangbanger, they want him to try and escape.

Anonymous said...

"Re: pull ups.

I've seen lots of little (i.e. petite) female gymnasts do a dozen pull ups with ease.

Could this be one reason why the famele cop happens to be so short? Only tiny girls can do pull-ups?

Is the pull up requirement strictly enforced?

Is it even possible for a tall big girl to do a pull up? "

To this day, I don't understand why people bother to bring up the far end of the bell curve to discredit the bell curve in any way.

Citing trained athelete's in specialized sports doesn't take away from my contention that most women can't do five pull ups.

As a personal trainer, I worked with the general population of aspiring female atheletes, not 5'1" little specialized powerhouses who apply leverage and relative low bodyweight advantages to said task. Besides, you won't find women gymnasts dominating in ring exercises, for the same reason. Real upper body strength isn't part of the overall game plan for women.
Anyway, on this blogsite, more than any other, I'd think the concept of "the 'exception' does not disprove the bell curve," would be something to take for granted.

-former personal trainer

Bill said...

This invites not only shootings, but much more aggression from protective male partners/colleagues.

A cop is a lot more likely to use excessive or deadly force to aid a small female.


Dennis Mangan said...

I don't agree that the problem here is that she is petite. A .38 Special, or whatever the cops use these days, is a huge equalizer; all you need is the strength to pull the trigger and the biggest perp drops.


The point is that cops shouldn't have to pull the trigger. They should be able to subdue suspects without killing them (or getting killed). That takes a lot of strength in many cases.

Also, hanging onto a gun is not easy in a physical struggle with someone at least as strong as you are.

Harry Baldwin said...

Other respondents have made the point that "petite" officers are more likely to have to resort to deadly force than their more physically powerful male counterparts, but there's more to the problem than that. The first indication a police officer may have that he is in trouble is when he is jumped by someone trying to snatch his gun, or is otherwise physically assaulted. In these cases, he will have to fend off his attacker physically before he can use his equalizer, be it pistol, Taser, nightstick, or OC spray. Physical strength is critically important in law enforcement and will remain so.

as said...

Personal trainer:

I wasn't disputing the bell curve at all! I know that women are far less stronger than men!

Nor do I think females, diminutive or otherwise, should be in the police force or military.

-----

It's just that with the talk of various strength requirements in this comments forum, I was reminded of the fact that women who are little are more easily able to do strength exercises, like pull ups and push ups.

(I am female and this is what I've observed at the gym).

So, I wondered, if you had a pull up and push up requirment but no minimum weight or height requirement, would you end up with short, small girls on the force?

Frank Furso said...

This discussion could never be complete without this incredible footage of female cops doing what women do best: shopping.

SFG said...

A woman in uniform, with handcuffs? I'd be putty in her hands.

Man, and I always thought all the submissives were liberal. ;)

Anonymous said...

See Fred on Everything- female cops aren't bad. Female firemen suck, sure. Firemen need to hump hoses and victims. Cops are there to calm people down.

I was in Diego Garcia in '89. Fifty guys in the E1-E3 lounge, beer-only. Diego Garcia puts formaldehyde in the beer- tastes like high school biology specimens. Annoying. 3rd beer = psychotic rage. (Brits like to screw Other Ranks; Brit Other Ranks like to get fighting drunk).

I was assigned Shore Patrol. So was a short fat chick, heavy acne, one of two women I saw on the island. (Carrier in port, 5K swinging dicks). A table started making noise, she'd walk over and say hi. Everyone shut up and acted nice.

Saved me from losing a fight with 500 guys. (When you lose they grow). And from losing my crow.

The presence of a lady- don't underestimate it. (Of course you need gorilla cops too).

robert61 said...

Here in socialist Sweden, I can't help noticing that our coppers tend to be big burly fellows. The Swedes are funny: comically PC about many issues, yet remarkably matter-of-fact about certain HBD issues (chiefly those not touching on anything to do with upper middle class female employment or our burgeoning immigrant underclass). Muscle-bound young machos make better patrolmen? Duh.

Baloo said...

There _is_ a place in the Armed Forces for women, in feminine roles — medical and clerical. But other than that, I agree there's very little place in anybody's military for females, for all the reasons outlined here. Females in the roles I've mentioned should be a part of the armed force because it's necessary that they be under military discipline.

— Baloo
http://balooscartoonblog.blogspot.com/

Anonymous said...

...well, I have a diminutive lady cop friend, and I doubt anybody will take her gun.... because she'll shoot such an idiot before they can grab her gun. (She's in Montana, so she won't get much crap for shooting people, likely)

Shooting people doesn't take that much upper body strength. And the non-petite male cops don't necessarily use their upper body strength that often either. They're tazing and shooting, bro.

Anonymous said...

Hey Steve, I was curious why you never wrote anything on The Wire during it's series run. Given your style of film criticism, I figured you'd really relish the task of dissecting the liberal and leftist assumptions about race that pervade the show from an appreciation of the intricacy of it's narrative and subtlety of it's exposition.

Svigor said...

5'1" little specialized powerhouses who apply leverage and relative low bodyweight advantages to said task.

If you look at female gymnasts, one of the first things you notice is that they have tiny hips relative to other women (comparing gymnast vs. normal hip to upper body mass ratio would probably be funny). I don't know if this is due to genetics, environment (gymnasts have some weird stuff going on), or both.

Anonymous said...

Hey Steve, I was curious why you never wrote anything on The Wire during its series run.

Because he doesn't have cable? I guess he could have reviewed the DVDs when they came out, but The Wire was one of HBO's least watched, least publicized series, so he probably didn't even hear about it.

But yeah, Simon and Burns wear their leftish politics on their sleeves. Still, they weren't afraid to complicate things. They approved of the idea of Hamsterdam but nevertheless depicted it as a nightmare scene out of Goya or Bosch. The black politicians are just as sleazy and corrupt as the white politicians, if not more so. (Nobody was sleazier than Clay Davis.) And you gotta give props to S&B for making the most evil and despicable character an 8-year-old black boy.

Truth said...

Wow, somebody on this site actually watched "The Wire". Season 4 of that show was the greatest season of TV Drama ever.

Matt G. said...

For those who haven't seen it "The Wire" is the best dramatic series ever made. The anonymous comments above mentioned a liberal bias in the show. It does exist but the show easily satisfies any race realist since it does not minimize or white wash black dysfunction. Little if anything is toned down. Most cops who have seen the show agree that is the most realistic show ever made about police work. The show touches on many of the themes that Steve writes about in his posts, especially many of the political narratives. Definitely the smartest show on television and well worth watching.
David Simon has also written several excellent books. The book "Homicide" details Simons year spent shadowing the Baltimore homicide unit (it inspired the NBC show). There is a passage about female cops which isn't very flattering to women in law enforcement. Another book called "The Corner" details Simons and Burns year spent on a Baltimore drug corner.

Anonymous said...

Season 4 of that show was the greatest season of TV Drama ever.

Word. But Season 5 was a huge disappointment.

none of the above said...

Yeah, Fred on Everything (police reporter, ex-military, general curmudgeon) had a nice discussion of this issue. His take was basically that women seemed to do fine most of the time, but that in a physical conflict, a woman was likely to have to reach for her gun in situations where a man would have some better options.

The thing that's striking here is that this isn't some subtle, hard-to-see difference (as with the possible differences in mathematical aptitude). The differences in size and strength between the sexes are huge, enough so that most sports have to have two separate leagues or categories.

Anonymous said...

"this is all aside from the problem of whether .40 smith & wesson or .357 magnum are too much for female police officers, or .45 acp is too much for female soldiers. 9mm is pretty much what you would default to when considering a mixed gender force."

If my admittedly shitty memory serves me correctly, the 9mm was was adopted some years ago for a number of reasons: It was to match NATO specs(so our shit matched Euro shit for military reasons)) for the high capacity that 9mm pistols had at that time compared to the .45s, and for the speed of reloading vs. revolvers. The good part of that was having more bullets in your gun. The down side was that it wasn't a .45Now having said that, many females hands are not large enough to comfortably use Glocks, Berettas or other full size 9mms anyway. And before anyone goes and beats on the 9mm as being a "weak" round, it has killed quite a few people over the last 100 years. As for the .38, it has killed lots of people as well over the same period. And if you are looking for a .38 snubby to be a man-stopper, you are looking for the wrong thing. It is designed to be an easily hidden, very reliable, close range, last-ditch weapon. And use hollow points or some variety thereof if you need to kill someone.

Mr. Anon said...

"albertosaurus said...

Al Pacino at 5'4", 110 lbs and 70 years old is shown in a recent film as a street cop. If the public sees enough of this kind of nonsense they will begin to think even "diminutive women" can be street cops."

Yeah, that always makes me snicker too - yet another unrealistic trope in movies which I've also noticed - old, shriveled-up fossiles playing cops - like Pacino and Deniro in that recent movie, or Eastwood in "Line of Fire", or Harrison Ford in "Hollywood Homicide". From what I've observed of real cops, they all retire at 20 years - as soon as they possibly can. I don't think there are too many 60 year old policemen running around.

The "butt-kicking babes" trope (as Steve has dubbed it) is however much more dangerous. How many young women have landed themselves in serious trouble because they, without the benefit of special effects, tried to emulate Angelina Jolie or Uma Thurman?

Danindc said...

women cops are fn embarassing is what it is.....it's like women play by play announcers....disturbing

Anonymous said...

Another problem as serious and pathetic as frail, diminutive cops:

http://tinyurl.com/2jdl3y

Can you imagine the disaster that would ensue if cops had IQs of 125? Thank God that madness was stopped in its tracks!

Anonymous said...

[i]Wow, somebody on this site actually watched "The Wire". [/i]

I suspect more than a few. This site probably has a not insignificant amount of readers with a liberal/SWPL bent and an interest or concern with HBD (even if they're very carefully not to reveal it in public). IIRC, the guy who wrote Stuff White People Like was partly inspired by his lamenting that more white people weren't watching The Wire, having the effect of putting in doubt a complete run of series.

Bill said...

Anonymous said...

Another problem as serious and pathetic as frail, diminutive cops:

http://tinyurl.com/2jdl3y

Can you imagine the disaster that would ensue if cops had IQs of 125? Thank God that madness was stopped in its tracks!


Give me a break. They just didn't want a 48-year-old cop, so they turned him down by saying he was too smart.

If a 25yo got the same score they'd keep him for sure.

Anonymous said...

Give me a break. They just didn't want a 48-year-old cop, so they turned him down by saying he was too smart.

Then why not just tell him he's past the age limit? That's what they'd do in the military.

This wasn't some excuse they pulled out of their ass on the spot. It was in their guidelines.

And now it's enshrined in a ruling by a federal judge: You can't refuse to admit peeps to the police force for being small and weak, but you can refuse to admit them for being too smart. Way to go!

silver said...


The "butt-kicking babes" trope (as Steve has dubbed it) is however much more dangerous. How many young women have landed themselves in serious trouble because they, without the benefit of special effects, tried to emulate Angelina Jolie or Uma Thurman?


Five, ten maybe? Whatever it is, it's sure to be dwarfed by the number of guys who have had their butts kicked after watching a few martial arts flicks and taking lessons for a few months and thinking they "know how to fight."

Anonymous said...

As Said:

"So, I wondered, if you had a pull up and push up requirment but no minimum weight or height requirement, would you end up with short, small girls on the force?"

I think we have short and small girls on the force anyway. Just to clarify it, it would be nice to know if she needed to scale a few fences while in a pursuit, or being chased, the pullup requirement would ensure she could do so.
Obviously, if we had absolute, and reasonable height and weight requirements, along with the 5 pullups rule, we'd have less dead police officers.

Anonymous said...

could I watch season 4 of the wire w/out watching seasons 1-3??

Blode0322 said...

With this decisision, the courts have shown their true colors. Anti-white and anti-intellectual to the bone. In the Duke Power case, the court banned IQ tests not because they were unfair, but because blacks did worse on them, and Duke Power couldn't prove that (high) IQ had anything to do with job performance!

The New London police haven't proven that low IQ improves police work, yet the Federal Courts back them to the hilt. Note also that more whites are going to test as "inferior" (i.e. too smart) than blacks, meaning fewer whites on the force (a la New Orleans), but that doesn't stop the judge.

If the New London PD had wanted to keep the guy off because he was too old to serve effectively, they should have given rigorous physical tests and tests of memory. They probably didn't because that would axe too many of their affirmative action hires (memory being pretty well correlated with IQ, and tons of NAMs being obese).

This may signal a growing willingness on the part of the judiciary to accept IQ tests in general, but I doubt it.

Blode0322 said...

If my admittedly shitty memory serves me correctly, the 9mm was adopted some years ago for a number of reasons: It was to match NATO specs(so our shit matched Euro shit for military reasons)) for the high capacity that 9mm pistols had at that time compared to the .45s, and for the speed of reloading vs. revolvers.

You are correct. Pistols aren't very important to any army (or though they can occasionally be important to small units), so standardization was more important than squeezing the last drop of stopping power out of the category.

The good part of that was having more bullets in your gun. The down side was that it wasn't a .45

Not everyone accepts that .45 ACP has much more stopping power than 9mm Parabellum. The latter - especially in its NATO loadings - generally has more muzzle energy. Evan Marshall's data on the subject are controversial and a lot of people would say it's worthless, but I still regard Marshall as more useful than just simple bigger-bullets-are-better calculations.

Now having said that, many females hands are not large enough to comfortably use Glocks, Berettas or other full size 9mms anyway.

I'd love to compare the average Japanese soldier's hand to the average Caucasian woman's. I bet the former is significantly larger, but I surmise this only from the long search police departments have made for small-hand-friendly pistols. Also note that Glocks and other polymer pistols are subject to limp-wrist jams - the frame is so light it tends to move too much with the slide. The slide has to move a lot relative to the frame to open the action.

Anonymous said...

True story:

During the LA Riots of 92 on 3rd St in Koreatown when the LAPD basically went AWOL, I took a stroll as 8 or so stores and a couple of apartment complexes where burning up. Through the smoke you could hear popping sounds that could easily be confused with gunshots, but were (maybe) just things popping in the fires. Looters were about as were bystanders. The fire department had a couple trucks fighting a Jon's Supermarket fire, ignoring the looting and possible shots going off. A police unit pulled up with two women cops. Both of whom stayed far away from the looters, the smoke, looking very afraid, and did nothing but cajole bystanders to "stay away" like kindergarden teachers telling kids that something is dangerous. The looters themselves paid absolutely no attention to the female cops.

Sometimes masculine courage matters. No joke.

Svigor said...

Whatever it is, it's sure to be dwarfed by the number of guys who have had their butts kicked after watching a few martial arts flicks and taking lessons for years and thinking they "know how to fight."

Fixed that for you.

Anonymous said...

"Sometimes masculine courage matters. No joke."

I'll say this about female cops. Most seem either overweight or small. I have never seen female cops wading into a situation and cracking heads. I'm 6ft and fit, but no musclebound brawler. However, I have not seen a female cop that I feel I could not sucessfully resist an arrest attempt from. I'd stand a pretty good chance of either taking her pistol, beating her up or both. My reach is longer and I'm stronger, especially upper body strength wise. I'm no track star either, but I bet I could out run, out jump or outclimb to escape too. And what also bothers me is that I've seen many more female cops than male forget to use the thumb snap o the holsters. You'll lose your pistol that way. Then you had better make sure the sights are filed off, because it'll hurt less when it gets shoved up your ass.

Anonymous said...

Blode0322

Now you've gone and done it! You should know better than to start that debate about which bullet is the best.

"Not everyone accepts that .45 ACP has much more stopping power than 9mm Parabellum."

That may be blasphemy in some circles.


For a fun site try the "Box o' Truth." Those guys test all kind of guns and shoot all kinds of stuff. Fun and informative.

Grizzlie Antagonist said...

-----The "butt-kicking babes" trope (as Steve has dubbed it) is however much more dangerous. How many young women have landed themselves in serious trouble because they, without the benefit of special effects, tried to emulate Angelina Jolie or Uma Thurman?-----

*****Five, ten maybe? Whatever it is, it's sure to be dwarfed by the number of guys who have had their butts kicked after watching a few martial arts flicks and taking lessons for a few months and thinking they "know how to fight."*****


What you're saying is that you think that men are more receptive than women to the illusory promises suggested in a scene from the movies or TV.

I doubt very much that that's the case.

Truth said...

I've watched every episode of all five seasons of The Wire, but I think if you watched season 4 alone, it would stand on it's own.

Season 1: Introduces all of the characters, tells why the drug war is futile.

Season 2: "Put more white people on the show or we'll cancel it." Still better than 90% of what you see in TV.

Season 3: Crooked politicians interspersed with modern day Greek tradjedy

Season 4: "Where did all of these murderous little cretins come from?"

Season 5 The Deneumont (also a bit of a letdown) but again good TV.

If anything, I would say start with season 3 episode 1.

Matt G. said...

Anonymous said...
could I watch season 4 of the wire w/out watching seasons 1-3??

No you have to start with season 1 episode 1 and work your way up. The series is set up like a novel so starting at season 4 would be like starting to read a novel towards the end. Believe me it's worth watching from the very beginning.

Anonymous said...

could I watch season 4 of the wire w/out watching seasons 1-3??

Well, you could, but I'd recommend starting from S1. Each season has one main plotline that's new and could be followed on its own. But all the subsidiary plotlines (and there are many) are carried over from earlier seasons. Plus, you'd miss out on all the character development going on.

Season 2: "Put more white people on the show or we'll cancel it." Still better than 90% of what you see in TV.

For what it's worth, David Simon vociferously denies that's why S2 focused on Polish-American dockworkers. I see no reason to disbelieve him. S2 showed that The Wire was more than just a police procedural. (Only the plot hole in the penultimate episode kept it from being as good as S3 and S4.)

Truth said...

Season 2 was good TV. I just didn't get the same passion that I did from 3 and 4, it seemed a little forced. Strangely enough so did McNaulty's character in a lot of instances (although it is a hoot to watch him talking like Prince Charles on the bonus materials).

For some reason it just seems like they write black characters better than whites. (Carchetti being the exception.) That is along the lines of Spike Lee. His Italian and Jewish characters catch a lot of heat for being stereotypical, but having been rasised in NYC, I'll tell you, he does a good job. On the other hand Spike's black characters started sounding like Uncle Remus after Malcolm X.

Anonymous said...

"modern day Greek tradjedy"

Nice phonetic spelling.

"The Deneumont"

Missed again.

Sorry, couldn't let it pass. Otherwise, interesting comments.

Anonymous said...

For some reason it just seems like they write black characters better than whites.

Landsman? Rawls? Valchek? Frank? Ziggy?

I think they've come up with some pretty vivid, interesting white characters. For instance, I've known several Ziggies and The Wire really nailed 'em. Of course, since the cast is about 70% black, the vivid, interesting black characters outnumber the vivid, interesting white characters.

And I disagree about Jimmy. Until the final season, he managed to be consistently interesting and believable, which is impressive considering he was the linchpin for 4 of 5 seasons.

I'll grant you that the "Greeks" were a bit too sketchy compared to the richness of Avon or Prop Joe, but then I think that was intentional.

And not all the black characters seem believable or compelling. Much as I enjoy Brother Mouzone, he's just an amusing conceit with no real life outside his plot function. And the members of Omar's crew always seemed disposable (often literally). Kimmy and Tosha? The succession of boy toys? They're even less interesting than Horseface.

Big Wave Dave said...

Besides their absolute inability to handle physical confrontations with combative persons, statistics compiled by police professionals reveal that diminutive female officers tend to retreat from street duty in the first two or three years, often by bidding for jobs traditionally held by old-timers awaiting retirement, or by feigning on-the-job injuries that eventually lead to early retirements (50% pay, tax-free, plus benefits for the next 50+ years).

It is a story, just one of many, that neither the newspapers nor the cowed police chiefs will make public.

silver said...

What you're saying is that you think that men are more receptive than women to the illusory promises suggested in a scene from the movies or TV.

I doubt very much that that's the case.


How powerful the effect of the "illusory promises" is depends on how much of a departure from reality they represent and how much they play on men's and women's hopes.

Men are far more likely to be inspired (deluded) by scenes of a diminutive chinese kung fu master knocking out waves of imposing "stupid American" bikers than women would be by seeing a couple of their own wearing catsuits locked in an artistic sword-fight.

Grizzlie Antagonist said...

-----What you're saying is that you think that men are more receptive than women to the illusory promises suggested in a scene from the movies or TV.

I doubt very much that that's the case.-----

*****How powerful the effect of the "illusory promises" is depends on how much of a departure from reality they represent and how much they play on men's and women's hopes.

Men are far more likely to be inspired (deluded) by scenes of a diminutive chinese kung fu master knocking out waves of imposing "stupid American" bikers than women would be by seeing a couple of their own wearing catsuits locked in an artistic sword-fight.*****


Disagree completely. You may not think so, but the ability to beat up a man is very much a part of the "hopes" of women.

I've heard reports of women cheering in movie theatres a number of years ago as they watched Jennifer Lopez use martial arts to decimate a male abuser with her bare hands.

I never saw this movie or that scene so it's anecdotal evidence, but I have heard of such reports, and I doubt that there was much "artistry" involved in the scene in question.

In real life, women account for a very large percentage -- perhaps a majority -- of those who abuse children. So the willingness to use brutal force when there's a GENUINE physical advantage doesn't seem to be antithetical to female nature.

In fact, the same thing may be true when there ISN'T a genuine physical advantage.

Because women reportedly initiate as many incidents of domestic violence against men as men do against women.

Generally, women are not able to inflict as much damage as men do, of course, but they'll often use a weapon or take advantage of the element of surprise or of the reluctance of their target to defend himself or retaliate.

So I see no reason to suppose that women are less likely to be deluded by fight scenes in movies than men are.

And given their empathetic natures, there's certainly no reason to suppose that women will identify less with a fictitious female character than men will identify with a fictitious male character.

Danindc said...

Good points Grizzlie.... I know it's anecdotal but my girlfriend threw a lamp at me

Anonymous said...

You may not think so, but the ability to beat up a man is very much a part of the "hopes" of women.


FWIW, I have heard many, many women voice that fantasy.

One woman I used to work with, a New Age hippie-type who used to wax poetic about the moral superiority of the female sex and how women were naturally more in tune with the sensitive vibrations of the universe, once sighed and wished aloud that in her next life she'd be reincarnated as "a big, burly seven-foot guy who'd never have to take shit from anyone".

silver said...

Disagree completely. You may not think so, but the ability to beat up a man is very much a part of the "hopes" of women.


I think that's heavily outweighed by their hopes of snagging themselves a good man, wouldn't you say? So I don't think it's quite up there with looking glamorous, famous, or -- to show how little I really know about women -- whatever their other "stereotypical" dreams in life are. (Are they actually interested in anything more than a good man? Hehe.)

I've heard reports of women cheering in movie theatres a number of years ago as they watched Jennifer Lopez use martial arts to decimate a male abuser with her bare hands.


I never saw this movie or that scene so it's anecdotal evidence, but I have heard of such reports, and I doubt that there was much "artistry" involved in the scene in question.


Well, you mentioned Uma Thurman, so I'd work Kill Bill into my point -- which was that men are more likely than women to get excited by that stuff than women.

I've seen the movie you're talking about here. It was a do-or-die survival act. I'm sure some women would be inspired by the example, but that's hardly the same as them strutting around thinking their tough "butt-kicking babes" and landing themselves in trouble by picking fights with men.


Because women reportedly initiate as many incidents of domestic violence against men as men do against women.


That's because they're full of righteous indignation and they don't expect the man to hit back. Not in every instance, of course: there are some very butch women out there, but we're talking about the norm.



So I see no reason to suppose that women are less likely to be deluded by fight scenes in movies than men are.


I do: it represents a greater departure from reality. The greater the departure from reality, the more frequent or intense the "brainwashing" needs to be before we'll believe it. Even if women are determined to believe they're mens equals in every possible way, the reality they experience keeps them uncertain. And the idea that they can all be butt-kickers is just harder for them to swallow than it is more men. (To say nothing of aspirations.)

On the other hand, I imagine women are far more susceptible to feel good stories about "world peace" or interracial amity.

Anonymous said...

"Good points Grizzlie.... I know it's anecdotal but my girlfriend threw a lamp at me"

My girl a stool.

I think we're seeing a pattern emerge.

Anonymous said...

---"Good points Grizzlie.... I know it's anecdotal but my girlfriend threw a lamp at me"

My girl a stool.

I think we're seeing a pattern emerge.-------

She have any friends?

Assegai said...

The point that conservatives need to draw from all this is that preferences come with a price: anytime you fill a position for any reason other than competence, someone, somewhere, will pay that price, in blood or treasure.

Gene Berman said...

Assegai:

That IS the point that CONSERVATIVES draw (and wish that others would do likewise).

Assegai said...

Mr. Berman-

Indeed, and I presume that conservatives, among whom I number myself, patronize this forum. Am I in the wrong place, do you care to offer a demurral?