November 23, 2009

Unanswerable questions

From the Wall Street Journal:
  • Where Tech Keeps Booming

    BOOKSHELF
    By James K. Glassman
    In "Start-Up Nation," Dan Senor and Saul Singer document Israel's economic dynamism—especially in the realm of advanced technology—and try to account for the country's extraordinary success.

Lemme think about this one. What could account for Israel's extraordinary economic dynamism in the realm of advanced technology ... hmmhmmh ... No, I'm drawing a complete blank ... I guess I'll have to buy the book to find out what the answer could possibly be.

My published articles are archived at iSteve.com -- Steve Sailer

83 comments:

Black Sea said...

Israel's diverse culture and national identity?

TGGP said...

I was surprised by how poor Israel is when I checked the numbers. Me and some other commenters debated the reasons why, as well as the cases of Armenia, Ireland and Singapore.

airtommy said...

I'm guessing the authors won't mention above-board as well as below-the-table techology transfers from the America . . .

Anonymous said...

Then why do they still need billions of US aid per year?

Anonymous said...

I think it must be that they are fortunately geographically located between numerous regions where technological advances are prevented by a lack of appropriate role models.

Gordon Porter said...

Could it be for espionage perhaps? Why else would a nation with such a high IQ need US foreign aid?

robert61 said...

Then why do they still need billions of US aid per year?

Here are four non-exclusive possibilities:
1) They don't, but why say no to free money?
2) They don't; the US provides the aid for domestic political reasons, not because Israel needs it.
3) They do because, in line with the intellectual currents of the mid to late 20th century, they have been such avid socialists, and the money helps make up for the damage socialism does to their economy.
4) They do because they are the American empire's main military proxy in the Middle East. Materiel isn't free.

J said...

War. The answer is war. War demands advanced technological weapons, and those capabilities filtrate into the business area.

And some Israelis are very capable too.

RKU said...

Then why do they still need billions of US aid per year?

Well, maybe for the same reason all the crooks on Wall Street needed so much taxpayer money. After all, I'd guess the average IQ at Goldman and the other big firms is at least 1.5-2 SD above the national average, certainly vastly higher than Israel's mean IQ.

Jimmy Crackedcorn said...

Theory One: Diversity: "Yeah! It's the diversity that does it!"

Theory Two: Gays. I can see Dick Florida getting a whole new book out of this. "I know why Israel prospers - it's teh gays!!!"

Theory Three: Immigration. From the WSJ Article: "In the end, it is not easy to discover why Israel, a tiny nation of immigrants torn by war, has managed to become the first technology nation." Yep, according to the WSJ, it's the fact that Israel is an immigrant nation!

FWIW, however, I do think there's something to be said for the mandatory military service.

Steve Sailer said...

"FWIW, however, I do think there's something to be said for the mandatory military service."

Perhaps.

Here's a way to test the question. The Druze and Circassians are also subject to conscription in Israel. How do they do in terms of high tech start-ups?

I don't know.

Anonymous said...

You're being too cute here Steve.

Israel has a lot of smart Jews, but aren't there other places with high IQ groups of people that don't similarly excel? If this is true why?

You're getting pretty reductionist here. Mexico is Mexico because Mexican's have a group iq of 90 (whatever) Isreal is Isreal because, etc.... Just post the numbers if that's what you think.

Jimmy Crackedcorn said...

1) As per TGGP, Israel isn't as rich as you'd think it would be.

2) Remember that only about half of all Israelis are Ashkenazi Jews. The rest are basically average intellectually, at best.

3) I'm willing to bet that at least some of the investment making its way to Israel is from Jews investing because they're Jews. Where in Israel are the big, successful tech corporations? Even tiny Finland has Nokia, while Germany (without many Jews, for some reason) has easly the largest per capita trade surplus in the world.

4) One would hope that a $1.5 TRILLION budget deficit would finally lead to common sense ideas like, oh, cutting Israel's and Egypt's and Africa's foreign aid. One day, maybe - but not during the Obama years.

Anonymous said...

The 3 billion dollars a year Israel collects from good old Uncle Sap, er, Sam, in "foreign aid" probably doesn't hurt either, Steve....

Anonymous said...

Dan Senor is the husband of CNN’s prime time anchor Campbell Brown. Brown converted to Judaism (she was raised Catholic) and Senor was the official spokesman for the “coalition” occupation of Iraq. So I guess Senor is a Neocon of sorts, ideologically.

jack strocchi said...

Steve Sailer says:

Lemme think about this one. What could account for Israel's extraordinary economic dynamism in the realm of advanced technology ... hmmhmmh ... No, I'm drawing a complete blank ... I guess I'll have to buy the book to find out what the answer could possibly be.

Yes, its puzzling to wonder what possible advantages a race that spawned Leibniz, Einstein and Friedman might enjoy. Here is a partial list of Jewish scientists and philosophers.

INteresting to note that Israel does not especially favour the status of engineers in its education and social system. Its still "my son the lawyer/doctor". Yet it is engineers who are earning the hard currency.

SO three cheers for Jewish intellectuals and another three for Jewish engineers. Great benefactors of mankind.

Educated people who deny the hereditarian theory of the transmission of intellectual facility are disingenuous.

The people who have hounded and harassed intellectuals such as Eysenck and Sailer are at best dullards and fools, at worst contemptible liars.

Anonymous said...

a race that spawned Leibniz

lolwut? leibniz isn't a jew.

Anonymous said...

3) I'm willing to bet that at least some of the investment making its way to Israel is from Jews investing because they're Jews. Where in Israel are the big, successful tech corporations? Even tiny Finland has Nokia, while Germany (without many Jews, for some reason) has easly the largest per capita trade surplus in the world.

-----------

Well, Teva pharmaceuticals is as big as Nokia. There are also a few high-tech companies worth from $1-$10 Billion ( Amdocs(dox), NICE(nice), Comverse(cmvt), Checkpoint(chkp), Given Imaging (givn), Ormat(ora), Elbit Systems (eslt)). Then there are many companies in the several hundred million dollar range trading on NASDAQ(tower semiconductor, radvision, audiocodes, alvarion, ceragon, gilat satellite, orckit, commtouch, retalix, protalix, EZchip, syneron, orbotech, etc.).

Also, many Israeli companies been bought for large sums (Chromatis by Lucent for $4 Billion, DSPC by Intel for $1.6 Billion, Iscar by Warren Buffett for $5 billion; Scitex and Indigo by HP for several billion; Tadiran by various companies, ECI Telecom by a private equity firm; many more hi-tech firms have been sold for a few hundred million each to international firms like SAP and Applied Materials - Siemens just bought Solel for ~$500 Million).

Then there are the 3 big government held defense firms: Israel Aircraft Industries, Israel Military Industries, and RAFAEL Armament Development which together have sales of close to $10 Billion a year.

There are also multi-billion dollar Israeli conglomerates traded only in Israel, with large technology intensive operations, among these Israel Chemicals, Israel Corp., and Koor industries.

And last, but certainly not least, are the large R&D operations of multinationals like Intel, Applied Materials, Motorola Semiconductor (now Freescale), IBM, Marvel, Microsoft, Oracle, SAP, etc. In most cases these are not just satellite R&D offices, but are the result of acquisitions or are central R&D operations. For instance, most of Intel's recent major chip advances, such as the Centrino, have been developed entirely in Israel.

Anonymous said...

I'm puzzled by the sarcastic tone of the post. I don't see why the tale of Israel's Tech sector doesn't deserve to be told, even granting that they article may not focus on HBD as much Steve would like.

Anyway, I don't think HBD supplies all, or even most, of the answer. Despite historical Jewish prominence in the field of finance, the modern State of Israel is ill-suited to be a world financial center. It is also a very new country, and doesn't possess the heavy industry that were the mainstays of economic growth for most of the 19th and 20th centuries. This explains a lot why Israel should be drawn to focus on advanced technology.

Also, as mentioned above, war. Lots of bright kids who might have had careers in all sorts of fields are siphoned into the military technology sector at a very young age, where they learn a profession and get to meet like-minded people, which has a spawn-off effect.

Anonymous said...

It's well to keep in mind that Israel's population is 20% Arab, 35% Arab Jews, and 15% Ultraorthodox Jews (who only study torah).

Chris said...

It's their inner-city gang outreach programs and the "Stay in skool" ads they're always running.

Simon said...

Per Lynn, Israel's median IQ is in the '90s. Presumably the minority of Ashkenazi average higher and provide the leadership class.

Holtz said...

An even more egregious example of omitted variable bias here - the Prof compares economic growth in Jamaica & Singapore. No mention of the work by Heiner Rindermann, Lynn or Vanhanen.

http://www.american.com/archive/2009/november/jamaica-vs-singapore

l said...

Will Israel even exist 50 years from now? I'm guessing not.

Yago2046 said...

"Mr. Singer, a columnist for the Jerusalem Post—dispose, a bit too blithely, the argument from ethnic or religious exceptionalism, dismissing "unitary Jewishness" or even individual talent as major reasons for Israel's high-tech success. "

They'd rather get nuked by Iran that recognize their talent.

Henry Canaday said...

Israel suffers a distinctive handicap in exporting its IT products, the prohibition on direct imports from Israel in Arab countries that would otherwise, due to oil wealth and proximity, be the natural markets for Israeli IT.

On the other hand, there are compensating benefits from the West. For example, the U.S Congress in the wake of 9-11 mandated the inspection of checked airport baggage by a technology that was, initially, made by only one firm, an Israeli one (another firm now makes the technology too).

More generally, Israeli IT firms have been dealing with the basic security questions -- who and what crosses your borders and moves around within your country -- for a long time. These firms had a competitive advantage after 9-11 as the rest of the world became a little more like Israel.

One suspects that the Israelis would be happy to give up this first-mover advantage in security IT if they could shed the original reasons for it.

Anonymous said...

Clearly Israel's lack of diversity is its strength. Can we stop handing them billions of dollars now? They're doing just fine.

Anonymous said...

Well, lets get one thing clear: it can't be anything to do with espionage.

Anonymous said...

They do because they are the American empire's main military proxy in the Middle East. Materiel isn't free.

Ah yes, that unsinkable aircraft carrier. Any word yet when this military proxy will be used? Its been 60 years now, its good to take the long term view but, you know, maybe the US could have seen even a tiny, token return on its investment.

Fred said...

"I was surprised by how poor Israel is when I checked the numbers."

Israel ranked 48th out of 229 countries last year, according to the CIA. Not poor, but not among the riches first world countries. That sort of buries the lede though: Israel was a third world country when it was founded 60 years ago, and is now a first world country. And it has really only been since the 1990s that its economy has been liberalized, enabling faster growth.

I would bet you'll see Israel rise few notches when the 2009 ranking is released, since Israel mostly avoided the financial crisis and global recession that hammered higher-ranked countries such as Ireland. Only three countries have raised interest rates so far this year, a sign of strength in their economies. One of them is Israel (the other two are Norway and Australia).

Why Israel isn't richer isn't too surprising though. Give Israel Hong Kong's economic policies and it would probably be one of the top ten richest countries in the world on a per-capita basis. But Israel's main goal isn't economic prosperity, but growing and maintaining its Jewish population. So it has fairly high taxes which it uses to support welfare for Jewish immigrants and fast-breeding Orthodox Jews.

Pat Shuff said...

Anonymous said... Well, Teva pharmaceuticals is as big as Nokia. There are also a few high-tech companies worth from $1-$10 Billion

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Nice demolishment of confirmation bias
of bias. Held shares in hydrothermal power producer Ormat some years ago.
Hydrothermal is likely the only alternative energy that is economically feasible sans subsidy at present, at present conventional energy prices, sources; i.e. coal, gas, oil etc.

Israel is somewhat above average in business incubation/innovation relative to the region, perhaps the world on a per capita basis. One wonders, without the oil, if it amounts to the sum total of neighbors in this regard. Defense spending is an enormous drain, compensated by enormous aid, US and private. Re: Edmund Safra, Robert Maxwell...it seems as if amongst the uber-wealthy funneling funds to Israel one runs the risk of meeting an untimely demise under mysterious, unknown and unsolved circumstances.
Due to Keystone Kops who can't seem to accomplish the simplist of crime scene
investigations, can't get their changing stories straight. Despite the typical law enforcement and justice system massive deployment of resources to high profile, high publicity cases (like Michael Jackson) pulled from no-name lumpenprole homicide investigations. Sort of leaves deep, lingering suspicions about who told whom what from political levels (cross border?) far higher than law enforcement or justice divisions.
Safracide is painless, it brings on many changes, the actions of the Monaco police in that investigation simply beg credulity, seemingly directed anywhere and everywhere but to the bottom of it.

Big Bill said...

The high tech industry got a boost from the Russian/Jewish blends who arrive a few decades ago.

High tech types seem to be the most mobile as well.

With their high tech connections, many of them establish themselves in the USA or Europe as well as Israel, keeping a foot in both camps, but ready to leave at a moment's notice.

There has been nervous talk in the Israeli Jewish press recently that foreign companies have been reducing their investment in Israel.

One weird trend for a country that has always fashioned itself as a rational European outpost in the Middle East is the uprising of fundamentalist Jews.

Google for "intel haredi riot" and read about the violence at an Intel facility because it employed Jews on the Sabbath.

Israel has a fundamentalist population that breeds like bunny rabbits. Demographics is destiny, and they will ultimately drive off the secular technologist types.

The Old Yishuv rides again!

Paul Mendez said...

I'm somewhat familiar with government policies promoting science & technology R&D worldwide. Israel makes it very easy/lucrative for international corporations to conduct research there. International corporations do business where they can make the most profit.

Jobs & spinoffs follow the R&D.

Anonymous said...

smart yes. but israel (often working w/ china) is the #1 industrial (and military) espionage ring in america.

Smart, but low ethics and prone to stealing. Good for them, not good for us.

Anonymous said...

Steve said: Here's a way to test the question. The Druze and Circassians are also subject to conscription in Israel. How do they do in terms of high tech start-ups?

The Circassian population in Israel is just too small (~3000) to make any useful generalizations.

The Druze seem to have lagged in the entrepreneurial department, but not without pointing fingers:

"Jewish officials often refer to the inability of the local forces to develop a spirit of initiative and ingenuity needed for economic development, while the Druze complain about inadequate capital, the lack of regional cooperation, and the endless difficulty of bureaucratic red tape when local people seek to undertake some new economic enterprise."
-THE DRUZE MINORITY IN ISRAEL IN THE MID-1990s, http://www.jcpa.org/jl/hit06.htm (written in 1995)

But also see the tables and discussion in 1995's "Arab industrialization in Israel: ethnic entrepreneurship in the periphery" by Shnell, Sofer and Drori at http://books.google.com/books?id=x3vM--v5qzQC&pg=PA84&lpg=PA84&dq=israeli+druze+entrepreneurship&source=bl&ots=lHK33kaRJ7&sig=leTAzz7X0-D_FvsCF1rH90ou2V8&hl=en&ei=TPgLS8CPNIimlAftsoGNBA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CA0Q6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=israeli%20druze%20entrepreneurship&f=false

Basically they postulate that while the Druze lag behind Christian Israeli Arabs in terms of entrepreneurial activity and success, they're well ahead of Muslim Israeli Arabs. The authors can of course credit the Christians for having higher average levels of education, but reading between the lines it seems pretty obvious they have a higher IQ baseline to work from. How rigorously have canon law prohibitions on cousin marriages been enforced among Middle Eastern Christians? I don't know--but even a low level of respect for consanguinity norms would probably have a measurable cumulative effect over the centuries.

David said...

Israeli kids who do well got early childhood intervention and were placed in loving Christian homes. Everyone knows that's the best solution to the challenges presented by all "those people."

Anonymous said...

Of course, just about every participant on this site agrees with HBD, and sees that Israel's wealth is due in part to the exceptionally high IQ of Ashkenazi jews.

The wealth and success of Israel, South Korea, and Finland are all "dog bits man" stories to those of us who accept HBD. High IQ leads to wealth.

By Steve, why not more coverage of the "man bites dog" stories that challenge and perplex all of us. I refer of course to Argentina and Uruguay. Both countries with average IQ of around 96 (see IQ and the Wealth of Nations)
and much lower per capita incomes than you might expect based on IQ.


Another man bites dog story concerns the Irish diaspora. Theodore Dalrymple has documented the depravity of the white proles of England and Scotland and my understanding is that a disproportionate number of these proles were folks who moved from Ireland to England and Scotland 50 - 150 years ago. So I would put forth that Irish folks that moved to the USA are doing just fine right now, Irish folks that stayed in Ireland are doing just fine but the Irish folks that moved to the UK seem to on average not be doing so well.

Steve, you are preaching to the converted when it comes to HBD. Let's look in to the "exception to the rule" situations together

Pat Shuff said...

I retired from Israeli tech company Gilat Satellite half dozen years ago pre-50. 'Gilat' is a mashup of the first names of the three ex-military officers
who founded the company, founded upon the proprietary technology originally developed for the military. That was a culmination of an adult working career beginning with an army hitch in satcom
through the old American Satellite Company cum Contel ASC cum GTE Spacenet cum GE Spacenet cum an IBM field services division cum Gilat the final few years. The standing joke amongst us field reps was to put velcro tags on the jackets and magnetic decals on the workvans to more easily accomodate the transitions as a little low priority group ping-ponged between sprawling multinationals,
lost in their cavernous bureaucracies.

Headqtrs was in the DC area, vicinity of the recently executed DC sniper shootings. When taken over by Gilat many Israelis came to the US on a rotational basis to become familiarized with the new division and operations. They all said they couldn't wait to return home despite rocketing episodes and strife continuing in the region. Fwiw, the US division head was an expatriate South African with a telecom background who left SA after the end of apartheid. He said he and others left because of seeing key management positions being filled by the politically connected lacking key competencies under affirmation action policies. Basically rats deserting what they percieved to be an inevitably sinking ship.

Long story short, Gilat enjoyed the dotbomb bubble, share price rocketing to $200/sh before collapsing to pennies along with the disappearance of New Economy and similar trendy, faddish lingo from the the lexicon. They fell into financial straits. There were a half dozen of us at that point, of long experience, regional overseers tasked to be eyes and ears out there in the hinterlands, put out brushfires etc.

When the time for drastic cost-cutting arrived, we argued with the Israeli mgmt that they are out of their freaking minds. They seemed utterly clueless about the skillset and motivations of the workforce out there, inhouse and independently contracted, expecting in-depth networking expertise and know-how of a non-college material
labor pool willing to do that kind of work for that kind of pay, long hard days on the road. A culture clash, maybe that works in Israel, with intellectual and social capital to draw from, a non-Bowling Alone reservoir, all for one, one for all organizationally to pull through a tough patch...home, family, income, a life beside the point. We argued their expectations were woefully unrealistic, that leasing the cheapest space segments
left vast swaths of their network in peril due to visibility, that cutting training and resource materials would take a bite, shooting themselves in the foot, taking short term measures with long term consequences. Collectively, my little peer group had a century of experience pounding the pavement for endless miles regionally, border to border and coast-to-coast nationally
on special larger projects, each of us with umpteen years or more to bring to what they were about. They turned a deaf ear to our advice, hubris, arrogance who knows. Though that is probably not unique to Israel, unable to comprehend what would seem easy or doable from their perspective and anything but from another perspective.
One sees alot of that right here in the good ol' US of A, unable to comprehend the unable to comprehend.

Henry Canaday said...

Oh, and Israelis are good at multi-tasking. I once had to call an Israeli IT exec for an airline software story. I got him on his cell phone, which he was carrying while on weekend reserve duty at a security checkpoint. Apparently, checkpoint duty is 1 percent stomach-knotting fear and 99 percent mind-numbing boredom. He seemed happy to chat and promote his company while waiting for the next stomach-knotter. On my side, it seemed a little weird to be speaking about ASPs and APIs to a guy who was at a semi-desert road junction in the Middle East. I half-expected the call to be interrupted by a loud boom. But it’s oneWorld now.

Dutch Boy said...

The swag the get from Uncle Chump to prop up their ethnostate doesn't hurt.

Seamus said...

There goes Sailer again, engaging in his anti-semitic slurs that Jews are smart.

Svigor said...

Well, obviously diversity is Israel's strength.

***

Couple days ago I saw a story about how an Israeli had come up with a wonderful new way to treat burns. I only read a summary, but basically, it's these bandages that are "biodegradable" or something and basically melt into the tissue once their job is done. This means constantly changing burn patients' bandages, and thus exposing the patient to infection, are a thing of the past.

I assume this technology, if viable, will spread throughout the world and significantly improve burn treatment. Amazingly, this improvement will probably cross borders and not require diversity of any kind on the receiving end. E.g., presumably, Koreans will be able to use it without importing Israelis en masse. This may not seem like a revelation to most, but to many of the people I've encountered on the Web it certainly must be.

TH said...

Some fact checking for Anonymous:

Well, Teva pharmaceuticals is as big as Nokia.

Teva revenue 2008: $11 billion
Nokia revenue 2008: $76 billion

There are also a few high-tech companies worth from $1-$10 Billion ( Amdocs(dox), NICE(nice), Comverse(cmvt), Checkpoint(chkp), Given Imaging (givn), Ormat(ora), Elbit Systems (eslt)).

I've never heard of those companies, but I googled their 2008 revenues:

Amdocs (based in Missouri) - $3162.10 million
NICE - $614.7 million
Comverse Technology - no current information available, they seem to be a bunch of crooks
Checkpoint - $808.5 million
Given Imaging - $125.1 million
Ormat - $344.83 million
Elbit - $2,638 million

Svigor said...

It's well to keep in mind that Israel's population is 20% Arab, 35% Arab Jews, and 15% Ultraorthodox Jews (who only study torah).

Source?

What percent of the population is foreign guest worker, does anyone know?

rob said...

Btw J, I like your blog.

rob said...

War. The answer is war. War demands advanced technological weapons, and those capabilities filtrate into the business area.

Why do people keep repeating this silly myth? To the small extent it is true, the reason is that countries invest more in technology because the short-sighted men who become politicians can only see the advantages of military technology.

Politicians mostly put resources into developing tech when they want to kill. RADAR to see enemy planes: kickass. RADAR to prevent civilian plane crashes: meh. Jets to shot down other jets: nothing cooler. Jets to move people around faster: they don't need to hurry.

In the US, patent pools in were important for developing planes and radio during the world wars. But the pools could have been formed without a war. But evil men only care enough about killing.

If war did cause technological advances, Muslims in general, and Afghans in particular, would be world leaders. Are they? That was easy.

Anonymous said...

What could account for Israel's extraordinary economic dynamism in the realm of advanced technology ...



Lack of any resources and billions in US aid tend to help propel the country in that direction. Although "economic dynamism" rather overstates the case. Israel is only an economic dynamo by comparision to the failed states around it.

Les Norsemorbles said...

If, as per Richard Lynn, the wealth of nations correlates with average intelligence, and the average IQ in Israel is 100 (due to all the Arabs, middle-eastern and Sephardic Jews, and Russian immigrants of dubious ethnicity), why does Israel outperform? Perhaps enough high-IQ Ashkenazi's coupled with a can-do mentality fostered by military service and ritual circumcision?

Anonymous said...

From the WSJ Article: "In the end, it is not easy to discover why Israel, a tiny nation of immigrants torn by war, has managed to become the first technology nation."





The first technology nation? That's on the same intellectual level as the rest of the swill they serve up at the WSJ. Even if we pretend that the word "technology" means "modern computing and bio-medical technology", it's still a joke.

Anonymous said...

Slightly off topic (but not reallty): Gap between Jewish and Arab students in Israel Grows:

http://haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1130378.html

Eric Rasmusen said...

That last comment is very useful, and would square the low GDP per capita with the success in high-tech--- a bimodal population.

Anonymous said...

the average IQ in Israel is 100 (due to all the Arabs, middle-eastern and Sephardic Jews, and Russian immigrants of dubious ethnicity)





I've gotten into this business of the rather non-Jewish looking Russian Jews with commenters here before.

I've been assured that they are too really Jewish. It's just that eating Russian food and living in the cold Russian climate without vitamin D made them pale-skinned and blond/red haired.

Any thoughts that they may have been doing the horizontal mambo with the natives and polluting the sacred Jewish gene pool are strictly verboten. They'd never have had sex with the untermensch. Never!

Anonymous said...

The Druze and Circassians are also subject to conscription in Israel. How do they do in terms of high tech start-ups?




Yes, I can't imagine Jews placng obstacles in the path of non-Jews trying to make a buck. It would never happen. Jews are known far and wide for their indifference to issues of ethnic loyalty.

Steve, when you chose to be, you can be remarkably blind.

Anonymous said...

Theodore Dalrymple has documented the depravity of the white proles of England and Scotland and my understanding is that a disproportionate number of these proles were folks who moved from Ireland to England and Scotland 50 - 150 years ago.





Uh huh. I don't suppose you have a source for that "undertanding", do you?

And Dalrymple documented the depravity of life in England in general, which he attributes to depravity among the upper class and their setting a bad example for everyone else.

Middletown Girl said...

Other than natural smarts, Jews in Israel benefit from the power of and mutual support among worldwide Jewry. Jews across Europe often helped one another, and American Jews have helped European Jews. And, both Jews--US and European--have gone out on a limb to help Israeli Jews.

Chinese are like this too. In the 80s and early 90s, most of the foreign capital investment to mainland China came from overseas Chinese in Southeast Asian and Taiwan. China also lucked out that Hong Kong had grown rich under the British. So, even as mainland China had been economically ravaged by quarter century of Maoism, there were lots of enterprising Chinese overseas who were willing to invest in China, teach Mainland Chinese, and even move back to China.

Israel also benefits from 'overseas' Jews. Even so, diaspora Jews wouldn't be so successful if not for their natural smarts and cohesiveness.

The same could probably said be said for Asian-Indians. During the long yrs of socialism, India stagnated but many enterprising Indians succeeded in Africa, America, and other places. When India began to economically liberalize, many of these Indians returned home to set up business or invested capital in new projects; or, they set up global networks between India and the developed world.

I think Iran also has a considerable 'overseas' talent pool. If Iran ever decides to liberalize, it might greatly benefit from successful diaspora Iranians, especially in the US.

Middletown Girl said...

"Clearly Israel's lack of diversity is its strength. Can we stop handing them billions of dollars now? They're doing just fine."

But, Israel is diverse--in a bad and a good way. The bad way is Israel has lots of angry Arabs and also some Ethiopian "Jews" who aint worth much.

In a good way, Israel took in Jews from all over the world. They may all be Jews, but they've brought different cultural flavors and racial bloodlines to Israel. So, Polish Jews have some Polish blood, Russian Jews have some Russian blood, Hungarian Jews have some Hungarian blood, German Jews have some German blood.

Israel draws from the cultural heritage, riches, and flavors of just about every European country--as Jews had been deeply immersed in and admiring of(or fascinated with) the culture of the host country. For example, a Russian Jew was more likely to have read and appreciated Tolstoy, Dostoyevsky, and Chekhov than a real Russian whose idea of Russianness was drinking vodka, dancing on tables, and wrestling with bears. An educated Polish Jew often knew more about Polish history, heritage, and literature than a real Pole whose idea of Polishness was getting 100 guys to change a lightbulb.

So, Israel is diverse in the backgrounds of its Jews. Even sephardim Jews have contributed interesting stuff to Israel. Yemeni Jews, for example, had absorbed Yemeni music and dance and made it their own. They brought this cultural treasure to Israel. They are among the most interestingly musical people in Israel. So, the key to Jewish greatness is unity/homogeneity PLUS diversity/curiosity.

josh said...

Well,we nabbed that Israeli rabbi for trafficking in black market human organs. (I liked his slogan:My names Sidney-You wanna buy a kidney?) I dont suppose that would make too much of a contribution to the GDP,but still...

Svigor said...

Israel is diverse

That's what I've been saying; just like America was diverse in 1964. But the more diversity, the the more strength; there's sooo much more room for Israel to strengthen itself. They must be self-haters, given their immigration policies - why else would they deny themselves access to the world's vast reservoir of strength?

Svigor said...

I'd also like to see a diverse white ethno-state, along the lines of the Israeli ethno-state; English, Scottish, Irish, French, German, Swiss, Norwegian, Spanish, etc.

TH said...

For example, a Russian Jew was more likely to have read and appreciated Tolstoy, Dostoyevsky, and Chekhov than a real Russian whose idea of Russianness was drinking vodka, dancing on tables, and wrestling with bears.

Every Russian is made to read the classic works of Russian literature in school, and references to Dostoyevsky's and Tolstoy's works are as common in Russian popular culture as references to Hollywood movies and tv shows are in America. You can strike up a very good conversation on "Crime and Punishment" with the average Russian drunkard.

Anonymous said...

People familiar with Israel. How apparent is the Ashkenazi/other Jews cognitive divide?

James Bamford said...

The former deputy director of counterintelligence at FBI, Harry B. Brandon, last year told Congressional Quarterly magazine that "the Israelis are interested in commercial as much as military secrets. They have a muscular technology sector themselves." According to CQ, "One effective espionage tool is forming joint partnerships with U.S. companies to supply software and other technology products to U.S. government agencies."

Truth said...

"I'd also like to see a diverse white ethno-state, along the lines of the Israeli ethno-state; English, Scottish, Irish, French, German, Swiss, Norwegian, Spanish, etc."

You already have one; it's called "a microbar."

Whiskey said...

Steve the review has several explanations, including a concentration of Jews. HOWEVER, if it was merely a concentration of Jews, why was Israel ONLY a tech power and a start-up power in the 1990's? Why Israel's "lost decades" in the 1970's and 1980's with VERY LOW ECONOMIC GROWTH? When if anything the 1990's and 2000's have been MORE turbulent (and risky with Iran's nuclear growth and helping Hezbollah rain rockets down on most of the nation)?

The article points out key factors (beyond Jewishness, which as noted, was plenty Jewish during bad economic growth):

1. Nurturing of technical talent out of HS by Israel's military.
2. Universal conscription and demand to "get results" even if "you have to break rules" by Israel's "go it alone" military culture.
3. Huge networking between the military, which funds a lot of stuff, research universities (which get money from the military), and old military buddies and commanders. It's cited that a few phone calls can set up a start-up in motion provided there is a good idea and sound technical research.
4. A HUGE appetite for risk.

Steve, your problem is you use simplistic models to explain everything. The very non-Jewish Silicon Valley from 1945-1985 met most of these models.

The military poured a LOT of money into basic research and various companies that could give them a technical edge. There was a free-wheeling appetite for risk. Everyone knew everybody and there was enough concentrated technical talent to get bodies in that were capable of innovation.

Being a lawyer in Israel (until relatively recently) was not seen as a way to get rich. Universities in California used to (Berkeley in particular) turn out tons of researchers AND PROJECTS (BSD anyone?) that were technically oriented. Yes IQ matters, but even the thinnest soup can produce broth. Blacks in Harlem today are genetically the same as in Langston Hughes and Duke Ellington's day, but no one talks today of a Harlem Renaissance.

You all are evading the issue. WHY?? with a tiny population is Israel second to the US in Venture Capital investment? Because risk has been managed out of the US, and with it returns.

As for Rob, time to grow up. If your nation is backwards technologically, their adversary is likely not to be. If your nation is outnumbered it better not be out-gunned. Penalty for not being advanced enough in wartime is often death as a nation. Just ask the Byzantines.

California's Silicon Valley resembled Israel for a number of years, until finally over-lawyering, lack of prestige of technical fields turned Berkeley from producing electrical engineers into trans-gendered poetry majors, and reduced risk appetite turned it into an outsourcing machine.

Whiskey said...

As far as Israel's advantages, it DOES give us intel on Syria, Iran, (Saddam formerly), Saudi Arabia, and Egypt. In particular, people of interest (jihadis and Islamists) and WMDs. Israel is also a useful proxy for the US, a deniable one.

For example, the destruction of the research reactor that the Syrians had (and kept secret) in arrangement with North Korea and Iran (the Syrians never protested the Israelis destroying it and carted away even the soil). THAT was of US benefit.

To the point of Israeli aid? Maybe not, but the alternative is developing over time our own proxies in Iraq, and Afghanistan, backed up by permanent US presence, and the ability to bomb places like Syria at will while taking the heat. [Weirdly, Israel was never condemned in the UN for it because Syria denied it ever happened.] That is however, expensive. [It would also require a CIA unleashed to talk to anyone, no matter how unsavory, make deals with anyone, no matter how ugly, do things like kill people, no matter how distasteful.] We can sure damn cut Israel loose, but replacing what they bring won't be cheap, easy, or fast.

It also has Israel without any beholding or strings from us. Leaving them totally free to do as they please. Is that a good idea? I say no.

Truth said...

That should be "microbrewery" sorry, I messed up the joke, But if you are ever being chased by the Crips and Bloods, just duck into your nearest microbrewery, you will not see black people (or Hispanics)in any establishment that brews some goofy beer in the basement.

Jimmy Crackedcorn said...

So, Polish Jews have some Polish blood, Russian Jews have some Russian blood, Hungarian Jews have some Hungarian blood, German Jews have some German blood.

Wow! So they're diverse like America would've been diverse...in 1920...if it hadn't had slavery.

I think we need to send them 3-4 million of our hard-working illegal Mexicans. After all, what society can't benefit from millions of Mexicans? Bill Kristol and John Podhoretz want them here, so why not there, too?

Jimmy Crackedcorn said...

The estimate here a few weeks ago was that about 35% of America's 400 richest were Jews. That's about 140 Jewish billlionaires in the US. According to the same magazine there are only 8 billionaires in Israel, the wealthiest of which is worth $3.5 billion.

Israel's population is estimated at around 7.3 million, with 2.8-4.0 million of them Ashkenazi. The United States has 6-9 million Jews, most of them Ashekanzi. So there are perhaps at the very most 3 times as many Ashkenazi Jews in the US as in Israel, yet there are 17.5 times as many Jewish billionaires in the US as in Israel - a sixfold disparity.

What does that mean? That Jews can do well, but need gentiles either as employees or as marks - or both? That Israel is seriously underproducing compared to its talent? That the smartest Ashkenazim prefer the biggest stage? What?

Because based on the talent it supposedly has Israel actually seems to underperform. Norway is a small nation, too, yet its per capita income is twice as large. Switzerland, Singapore, the US, Ireland, the Netherlands, Iceland, Austria, Canda, Sweden, Denmark, Australia, Belgium, the UK, Finland, Judenrein Germany, France, Japan, Taiwan, Italy, Greece, and even Spain and Slovenia all have higher per capita incomes than Israel.

sabril said...

"What does that mean? That Jews can do well, but need gentiles either as employees or as marks - or both?"

I would guess part of it is that in order to become a billionaire, it helps if your father was a multi-millionaire.

headache said...

Last time I visited Israel the taxi driver in Tel Aviv was bitching about how shitty a place it was to live and how much better off Germans were. You can be sure I kept my mouth f. shut.

nostril said...

Then why do they still need billions of US aid per year?

to be even more successful, or maybe its payback for all those years of discrimination?

Anonymous said...

Steve, when you chose to be, you can be remarkably blind.

or deliberately keeping another battle front shut down.

Anonymous said...

It's such a drag reading Whiskey's posts on anything Israel, Iraq or Afghanistan.

Anonymous said...

I believe there is a major diving line among medium to high IQ populations around the world. Some groups especially those who have evolved in harsher northern climates like the people in Europe and North East Asian have the intelligence, the innovativeness, the discipline etc… to build first world prosperous nations from scratch. While there the others who may not be very good at building such good societies but have the smarts, nepotism and clannishness to rise to the top once they enter these well run nations. Some examples of the first type are Germany, Finland and Scandinavia in general, Japan, Whites building Australia, South Africa etc… from a primitive wasteland to first world nations, Chinese raising Singapore into a first world nation. Examples of the second type are Indians, Iranians etc… who become successful in Western nations but fail to build nations on par with the best nations of the West. The reason Israel has such a low per capita income to nations like Germany is because they are of the second type. Just because a people become very successful in the western world does not mean they will build nations as successful as those found in the western world.

Black Sea said...

" . . . you will not see black people (or Hispanics)in any establishment that brews some goofy beer in the basement."

Well now, if they were brewing malt liquor in the basement . . .

Anonymous said...

Billion dollar subsidies from US taxpayers, technology transfers - and stolen Bernie Madoff loot - will sure get you some "economic dynamism."

Anonymous said...

"... you will not see black people (or Hispanics)in any establishment that brews some goofy beer in the basement. ..."

Right. Blacks and Hispanics only prefer high quality brews like Colt 45.

Truth said...

"Right. Blacks and Hispanics only prefer high quality brews like Colt 45."

"Well now, if they were brewing malt liquor in the basement . . ."

And who ever said that high-IQ HBD nerds weren't original thinkers?

Anonymous said...

"And who ever said that high-IQ HBD nerds weren't original thinkers?"

Don't be so hard on yourself there, Sport.

C'mon Troofie, we're all brothers here.

Truth said...

"Don't be so hard on yourself there, Sport.

C'mon Troofie, we're all brothers here."

I love all of you; Whiskey, Jimmy Crackcorn, Svigor, Kudzu Bob, etc, and we are all brothers, but love and disappointment are not mutually exclusive concepts.

Anonymous said...

"I love all of you; Whiskey, Jimmy Crackcorn, Svigor, Kudzu Bob, etc, and we are all brothers, but love and disappointment are not mutually exclusive concepts."

Yeah, I hear ya man.

You are a good dude, Truth, and a very interesting participant in, and contributor to, the discussion here in the Steve-O-Sphere.

rob said...

Whiskey blathered

As for Rob, time to grow up. If your nation is backwards technologically, their adversary is likely not to be. and kept blathering.

Actually, many backwards nations have fought wars with each other. Furthermore, there are warlike peoples who are not advanced.

You agree that the Ay-rabs are very warlike people, correct? They are not an advanced people. Therefore fightin' lots does not lead to technological advancement. For the conclusion to be incorrect, you must claim that Arabs are peaceful, or that they are technologically advanced. Which one?

Dood, you have a blog dedicated to complaining that there are not enough super-hero movies. Oh, you also complain that chicks hate you because they prefer "bad boys."

Who needs to grow up?

Jennifer said...
This comment has been removed by the author.