June 14, 2010

"English Learner Lifers"

From my new VDARE.com column on the newly noticed problem of "English Learner Lifers:"
Over the last decade, a bipartisan consensus has been emerging among politicians, the prestige press, and leading philanthropists: the racial gap in achievement is the fault of ... schoolteachers.

If only schoolteachers were more multiculturally sensitive, or if only they held students to more rigorous standards, or if only they could be fired in large numbers and replaced by young investment banker-types who work 19 hours per day and live on Red Bull and idealism, or if only … well, the cure-all proposals go on and on.

As a certain anonymous teacher wrote in an important essay on Achievement Gap Politics on the National Association of Scholars blog on May 9th:

“Educational policy is consumed by the achievement gap … It's race that generates the most intensity. I don't just mean that this is the number one priority. It's the only priority. The achievement gap pervades every corner of American educational policy discussion. Nothing else matters. No Child Left Behind was entirely about the achievement gap and measuring schools to see if they'd closed it. Obama's Race to the Top is just another take on the achievement gap—again, focusing on testing and this time holding teachers responsible if they can't get low-performing students to improve.”

Unfortunately, nobody has ever been able to point to a single one of the 16,025 school districts in the country where reformers have been able to make the Gap go away.

My question: How much of the current elite frenzy over the supposed failures of teachers stems from unspoken guilt over the educational results of 40 years of open door immigration policy?

Maybe our ruling class is saying to itself something like this:
“OK—we’ve now got 48 million Hispanics. And, on average, they aren’t climbing the ladder like the Ellis Island immigrants did. We said they would, but they’re mostly just kind of sitting there, generation after generation, at the prole level. They aren’t earning enough money to pay enough taxes.

“And look what we’ve done to California. That used to be America’s shining future. Back in 1970, California ranked 7th out of all the states in highest percentage of high school graduates in the workforce. Now, California ranks 50th.

“And Texas is 49th, so it’s not as if it matters whether it’s a Blue State like California or a Red State like Texas. From 2000 to 2010 in Texas, the number of Anglo public school students fell from 1.7 million to 1.6 million, while the number of Hispanic students rose from 1.6 million to 2.4 million.

“Together, the two biggest states account for 62 million people.

“Last year, only 51% of the babies born in the country were white, and that percentage is falling about one point per year.

 “Uh oh! We’ve really fouled up the whole country.

“Quick—find somebody else to blame! Like … uh … TEACHERS! Yeah, Latino lack of achievement is the fault of the TEACHERS! That will distract the voters for a while!”

Read the whole thing there and comment upon it here.

107 comments:

Anonymous said...

Steve:
I say this as a nominal liberal/leftist who reads your site. This is the stuff you need to hammer on if you want to shift opinion. Most liberals aren't rubbing their hands and cackling at the thought of replacing white rednecks with docile Democratic-voting latinos. They sincerely believe that Mexicans, after some initial problems, will assimilate and climb the socioeconomic ladder the way white ethnics did in the mid-20th Century.
You're really practically the only person out there making the case empirically that not all ethnic immigrant groups are the same, and that failure to thrive might have more to do with the values and qualities of the people themselves than with broader societal failures. But unlike most of your commenters, actually living among Southern California white liberals makes you not automatically ascribe malign motives to your opponents.

Anonymous said...

This is the stuff you need to hammer on if you want to shift opinion. Most liberals aren't rubbing their hands and cackling at the thought of replacing white rednecks with docile Democratic-voting latinos.

Sorry, I gotta disagree.

These nihilists knew EXACTLY what they were doing, with the civil rights movement, and the Immigration and Nationality Act.

And they've gotten exactly the results they wanted.

None of what they say or what they do makes any sense at all until you realize that their goal is the destruction of this country.

NW said...

Yeah, I always loved the "blame the teachers" bit. I went to a school (in Texas) that always assigned very capable teachers to teach the AP/honors students and we all did quite well on AP tests, etc. My school was very diverse I also saw these same teachers attempt to teach non-honors students, since even those who taught honors history, English, etc. also wound up with at least one non-honors history, English...Some of the differing outcomes were not just due to differences in ability, but differences in attitude, but it wasn't the teachers, whatever it was. Yes, there are stupid teachers, but the bigger problem is with the students.

I agree with the first poster, largely, though I do suspect a fair number of liberals know more about reality than they let on...

Anonymous said...

This essay is gold (although I'd quibble with the fact that patent attorneys' and periodontists' tax payments reflect their contribution to society, since their inflated salaries, much like those of diversity outreach coordinators, are a function of the regulatory environment rather than the actual value of their services).

Anonymous said...

"Most liberals aren't rubbing their hands and cackling at the thought of replacing white rednecks with docile Democratic-voting latinos."

Oh? So they're utterly different from Labour, who purposely imported the kind of electorate they wanted?

Mercer said...

" How much of the current elite frenzy over the supposed failures of teachers stems from unspoken guilt over the educational results of 40 years of open door immigration policy? "

I have seen no evidence of any guilt of open door immigration. What I read people say about the gap is that it is caused by poverty.

How are Latino "Long Term English Learners" different from poor black kids? I thought the academic ability of the two groups is similar.

Given that teachers unions are a big part of the Dem base it will be interesting to see how Dem politicians and pundits try to pin the blame for poor Latino performance on teachers and how the unions react.

David Davenport said...

... Metacognition is not useful to English Learner Lifers. What would be useful to them is vocational training. Teach them a trade and then let them graduate with a newly invented “associates’ high school diploma” after tenth grade. ...

Learn what trades, Steve? Hispanic youths seem to take up auto body repair, brick laying, roofing, and house painting well enough without any formal training that I know of.

More seriously, you seem to have the mistaken idea that there are lots of job openings in the USA for machinists, welders, industrial pipe fitters and electricians, and other traditional industrial trades. There are not a lot of such job openings out there.

Where there are job openings in industrial trades, white men want and need those jobs.

Anonymous said...

Here is an article that disproves a lot of what you've written: "Murder rates affect IQ scores: study."

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE65D5VW20100614?type=domesticNews

According to the author it accounts for one half of the black-white IQ gap. Are you still sticking to the lonely ice floe of fundamentalism now after this breakthrough research, which establishes a direct causal relationship that can't be explained away by other factors? In case you said yes, this study was published in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences.

Anonymous said...

Steve,

Believe it our not, at least some liberals are openly stating that our schools are failing because of our immigration policy.

This, from an article published a number of months ago in the New Republic:

"End State: Is California Finished?" by John Judis:

http://www.carnegieendowment.org/
publications/index.cfm?fa=view&id=24049


Quoting from the article:

"At the gathering[at Stanford's Hoover Institute], held in a plush conference room, one of the experts projected tables and graphs comparing various states. It was there that I had my own "AHA!" moment. The states with thriving educational systems were generally northern, predominately white, and with relatively few immigrants: the New England states, North Dakota, and Minnesota. That bore out the late Senator Patrick Moynihan's quip that the strongest factor in predicting SAT scores was proximity to the Canadian border. The states grouped with California on the lower end of the bar graph were Deep South states like Mississippi and Alabama with a legacy of racism and with a relative absence of new-economy jobs; states like West Virginia that have relatively few jobs for college grads; and states like Nevada, New Mexico, and Hawaii that have huge numbers of non-English-speaking, downscale immigrants whose children are entering the schools. California clearly falls into the last group, suggesting that California's poor performance since the 1960s may not have been due to an influx of bad teachers, or the rise of teachers' unions, but to the growth of the state's immigrant population after the 1965 federal legislation on immigration opened the gates."

-pd in sf

eh said...

I thought lifelong learning was a good thing.

Whiskey said...

I also live among Southern California White Liberals.

And believe me, they can't wait to replace/eradicate White folks who are to the right of NPR and the LAT. There is one group of people that Liberals feel are genetically and otherwise inferior -- "White Trash" aka lower class, lower income White folks, who tend to be conservative in outlook.

Its easy to be liberal living in Newport Beach, parts of Irvine, Lake Forest, and Santa Monica. Just to live there, you need a combined income of around $300K per year, per couple. That's a totally different outlook than folks making $90-100K combined per year.

Lest anyone doubt my words, just see how mindless the celebration of White replacement is on any LAT story, or other SWPL hangout.

dearieme said...

If I were a schoolteacher being blamed for stupid children being stupid, I'd probably join a trade union. Which action would, of course, just accelerate California down its helter-skelter of doom.

Anonymous said...

IQ differentials, along with wildly different cultural norms, will doubtless prevent any closure in racial gaps (unless the schools just refuse to teach white and Asian kids).

That said, your insistance on the impossibility of serious educational improvement is doubtless your least defensible position.

Humanity has never done any serious studies about what teaching techniques work best. (Education schools do lots of studies -- but they're all studies that real scientists laugh at.)

Worse, our society has set up a schooling system with no rewards for excellence and no consequences for failure and no possibility of innovation -- at any level.

Inner city schools actually are full of teachers who don't even bother trying to teach, ever. They just let their kids talk until the bell rings. Or they show movies on unrelated subjects.

It is flat out ridiculous to assert that serious improvement over the status quo is simply impossible, a self delusional dream by elites who cannot bring themselves to face the realities of life.

Does that mean we can close racial education gaps? No. Vastly better schools could lead to vast improvements among all student groups. It might even increase racial achievement gaps because brighter students presumably have more untapped potential.

But even if system-wide improvements did not close gaps, they could certainly increase NAM educational attainment and, thus, NAM productivity in later life.

Mark Wethman said...

Anonymous:

The effect doesn't actually account for one half the black-white IQ gap. It accounts for, at most, 12%. The author is spinning the findings.

"When one takes into account the prevalence of homicide in the most violent neighborhoods in cities like Chicago, these results mean that some children spend about one week out of every month functioning at a low level as they navigate the home or school environment," he said in a statement.

In other words, in the most violent of neighborhoods, there's a one in four chance that a black child will be scoring a half standard deviation lower than he otherwise would due to post-traumatic stress. Let's assume that ALL black children live in the most violent neighborhoods for the sake of argument. Take 100 of these kids, who scored an 85 on an IQ test, on average. 25 of those kids were suffering post traumatic stress, and would have scored 92, on average, if not for that stress. So what you really have is a group of 75 kids with a proper average score of 85, plus 25 kids with a proper average score of 92. The average score for the two groups comes out to 86.75. So at most, this only depresses average black IQ by 1.75 points, or 12% of a standard deviation.

Anonymous said...

Here is an article that disproves a lot of what you've written: "Murder rates affect IQ scores: study."

Here is an article that disproves a lot of what you've written: "Murder rates affect IQ scores: study."

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE65D5VW20100614?type=domesticNews"

Wow! You truly have found the magical potion that will reconcile your ridiculous blank slate theology with the IQ gap!

"The effects wear off after a week to nine days, Sharkey found. But in areas with a lot of crime, this does not provide much relief."

Oops...

"Curiously, there were enough murders in Hispanic neighborhoods but Latino children seemed unaffected.

"I just didn't find the same effect," Sharkey said."

D'oh! Never mind.

keypusher said...

Here is an article that disproves a lot of what you've written: "Murder rates affect IQ scores: study."

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE65D5VW20100614?type=domesticNews

According to the author it accounts for one half of the black-white IQ gap. Are you still sticking to the lonely ice floe of fundamentalism now after this breakthrough research, which establishes a direct causal relationship that can't be explained away by other factors? In case you said yes, this study was published in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences.


Hispanics showed no IQ effect from neighborhood murders, and there weren't enough murders in white neighborhoods for the murder effect on IQ to be tested.

Curvaceous Carbon-based Life Form said...

"Here is an article that disproves a lot of what you've written: "Murder rates affect IQ scores: study."


I'm not buying it.

From the article:

"On an IQ test using 100 as the average or norm, one standard deviation is 15 points. So if a child took the test within a week of a local murder, his or her score was 7-8 points lower on average than the score of a similar child in a similar neighborhood where there was no murder"

and

"The effects wear off after a week to nine days, Sharkey found. But in areas with a lot of crime, this does not provide much relief."

"When one takes into account the prevalence of homicide in the most violent neighborhoods in cities like Chicago, these results mean that some children spend about one week out of every month functioning at a low level as they navigate the home or school environment"

So one week a month, the black kid in the violent ghetto has a 7-8 point drop in IQ that will show up if he takes an IQ test during that time.


But, that ALSO means that 3 weeks a month, he has his NORMAL, USUAL IQ.

So testing nationwide SHOULD find 1/4 of Black kids showing a 7-8 IQ drop, but 3/4 of Black kids showing NO drop (since for 3/4 of month these kids are operating at their normal IQ)

Right?

So it SHOULD only result in a average of 2 IQ points drop for Blacks.
(8 pt. drop for the one kid suffering PTSD from a murder a week ago, but the USUAL IQs for the 3 black kids who are in their normal-IQ weeks would average to only a 2-point drop for the group attributable to PTSD.)

So, no, this PTSD hypothesis only explains, at best, 2 of the 15 points of the IQ gap, not 7 or 8.

Anonymous said...

Given that teachers unions are a big part of the Dem base it will be interesting to see how Dem politicians and pundits try to pin the blame for poor Latino performance on teachers and how the unions react.

One of the problems inherent in the multicult.

You remake your profession, institution whatever in its image while castigating all those who do not believ as you do. Then, as the years go by, you and a non-trivial number of your collegues, come to realise that the mounting problems in your field are not due to hate, bigotry, low expectations etc. but actually the multicult itself.

You turn to retrace your steps down the corridor, only to find the doors slammed shut in your face, you racist! Slammed shut by opthers still committed to the project or who are as yet less aware of the real problem.

keypusher said...

"End State: Is California Finished?" by John Judis

Yes, that was interesting. But the biggest problem Judis sees for California is not immigration, but the state's inability to raise taxes.

Darwin's Sh*tlist said...

"...various labels are applied: ‘ESL Lifers,’ ‘The 1.5 generation,’ ‘Forever LEP,’ and ‘The 6 Plusers’.”

Sounds like gang jargon.

Anonymous said...

My school district has pursued the achievement gap goal relentlessly for a decade now, with no results. Two years ago, they added a second goal: the discipline gap. This goal seeks to reduce the disparity in the rate of suspensions and expulsions between black and white kids.

Apparently, black kids were getting too much discipline, and the people running the schools decided that the problem wasn't the behavior of the black kids, rather it was their own racial bias that was at fault!

I'm sure it will help black students in the long run for teachers and administrators to look the other way when a black kid misbehaves, and make sure to suspend more white kids whenever they get the chance.

Liberalism IS a mental disorder.

Anonymous said...

The level of denial about the "root cause" of lackadaisacal students, the "gap", etc is so astonishing that I believe it must be psychological in origin. America has become the national equivalent of an alcoholic family, with the elephant in the room being HBD. The pain of cognitive dissonance is so great that these people will pretzel themselves into ANY explanation but a truthful one. In this scenario, the media are the enablers. Meanwhile, we import more and more drunks...

rob said...

The elite isn't feeling guilty. The ones who actually liked America or don't want to see massive civil unrest are feeling terrified. This is the Wile E. Coyote moment. They've run the country off the cliff, just looked down, and are scared shitless.

If NAMs can't race to the top, they have to see that first world America is gone. Half of the next generation will be about as smart and educated as the average white eigth grader. The Tea Partiers are the first rumbling of whites realizing that the federal government threw away the country for magic beans. I mean cheap lawn care.

Anonymous said...

Steve,
Here is an article from my local newspaper in Morris County, NJ, one of the wealthiest and best educated counties in the country. As everyone knows by now, no area of the country is immune to the burden of low-skilled immigrants. After reading the article, can someone please explain to me how letting this girl's father into the country somehow benefits the United States economy? I have no doubt they are very nice people but c'mon.....

http://www.nj.com/news/local/index.ssf/2010/06/for_morris_dropouts_another_wa.html

Anonymous said...

Are you still sticking to the lonely ice floe of fundamentalism now after this breakthrough research, which establishes a direct causal relationship that can't be explained away by other factors? In case you said yes, this study was published in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences.

Without even bothering to RTFA, what it says is that the PNAS [like almost all academic journals and academic institutions in the modern world] has become so hopelessly politicized that it can no longer be trusted to publish honest work.

asdfadfadsfsdf said...

Well, it certainly doesn't help Hispanics to hang around rappin' black kids and stoner white kids whose only expressions are 'uh, far out, dude.'

Peter A said...

None of what they say or what they do makes any sense at all until you realize that their goal is the destruction of this country.

Sorry, the first poster is right. Liberals sincerely believe it is people like the poster who posted this gem that really want to destroy American democracy. It's the same battle we've been fighting since the 1770s - high IQ North eastern and urban whites vs. dumb rural and southern whites. Liberals truly believe that redneck whites are nasty fascist thugs. I tend to agree with liberals on that point, but I still think replacing dumb rednecks with even dumber less conscientious Mexicans is not a briliant solution.

Anonymous said...

it's funny how a racial-rabble-rouser like yourself sees race in everything. Teacher accountability movement is not mostly about closing the racial gap.

Most ppl know that teachers make a big difference. I can attest to that.

sdfasdfasdfsdf said...

I like the 'blame the teachers' idea. It creates a split in the liberal camp, with elitist liberals blaming the foot soldiers for the failure of education.

The bigger problem is politics. Politicians have to win votes, and they have to appeal to masses of voters. So, it just doesn't pay to blame the people for the failure of education. So, politicians blame other politicians, big corporarations, and now teachers. Teachers comprise an important voting block but for every teacher, there are many more non-teacher parents who'd prefer to blame the failure of their kids on everyone but themselves.
Since education is so 100% dominated by liberals, they can't blame the problems on conservatives. So, it's turned into one set of liberals bashing another bunch of liberals. Makes for good spectacle.

asdfadsfadf said...

"This is the stuff you need to hammer on if you want to shift opinion. Most liberals aren't rubbing their hands and cackling at the thought of replacing white rednecks with docile Democratic-voting latinos."

Sorry, I gotta disagree.

These nihilists knew EXACTLY what they were doing, with the civil rights movement, and the Immigration and Nationality Act.


There is no single kind of liberal. Some are sincere and naive. Other are subversive and devious.

RandyB said...

The number one problem with politics and socio-political attitudes today is the assumption that there's no such thing as HBD between ethnicities. Start by believing that, and oppression is the most obviously pervasive force in all society.

Stop, and everything makes sense.

Of course, (limousine) liberals aren't really under such a delusion; they just think it's up to the working class whites to sacrifice for the good of minorities. Modern liberalism is bastard mix of poor minorities voting their pocketbook and intellectually elite whites who want business to sacrifice for the common good.

BTW, I'm no fan of modern conservatism either, which is a bastard mix of businessmen voting their pocketbooks and paleocons who think it's all been downhill since the Voting Rights Act.

asdfasdfasf said...

"Learn what trades, Steve? Hispanic youths seem to take up auto body repair, brick laying, roofing, and house painting well enough without any formal training that I know of."

How about graphic art? With CGI and other special effects in Hollywood, there is a need for low-level hightech skills.

Toadal said...

Anonymous said...

Here is an article that disproves a lot of what you've written: "Murder rates affect IQ scores: study."
...
According to the author it accounts for one half of the black-white IQ gap. Are you still sticking to the lonely ice floe of fundamentalism now after this breakthrough research, which establishes a direct causal relationship that can't be explained away by other factors?



This study's author apparently has his causality reversed.

However, one man's poison can be another man's medicine.

While I admit having a murder in the neighborhood can be a distraction, the easily distracted, or weak minded, would be more susceptible to that distraction. I'm sure throughout history many young scholars have become *more* focused on their studies when danger drew near, whether that danger was from the frequent raids of a Russian Czar's local militia or the plague of 1665 forcing the closure of Trinity College. Living on 59th avenue years ago in Oakland, California certainly helped me prepare for the GMAT.

So fragile minds succumb more readily to threats .. Hmmm, another variation on Stereotype Threat, except this time neither Whitey nor Juan are responsible, but his home boys are.

Some of the most explosive mental innovations I've ever read were during war when a combatant, having lost his friends, his squadron, or his platoon, turns against his enemy and wins.

Unfortunately, this study's author is attempting to define what he sees as a sociological problem and this has boxed-in his thinking, an imagination compartmentalized by a 'Crimestop Cube' that does not allow a non-sociological explanation.

Anonymous said...

How are Latino "Long Term English Learners" different from poor black kids?

Poor black kids are funny and sometimes make really good music.

stari_momak said...

From 'Anonymous's' article

====
In general, black U.S. children score about one standard deviation lower on standardized tests than white children. This finding accounts for half that difference, Sharkey said.

He was unable to find enough murders in predominately white neighborhoods to see if white children were affected.

Curiously, there were enough murders in Hispanic neighborhoods but Latino children seemed unaffected.

"I just didn't find the same effect," Sharkey said.

It could be the Hispanic children did not identify with the violence, Sharkey added. "Most of the victims, even in the Hispanic neighborhoods, were black."

It is well documented that blacks are far more likely to be murdered than members of any other U.S. ethnic group -- murder is the most common cause of death for young black men. [my emphasis]
========

Really, news reports are beginning to take on the quality of an inside joke -- we all know, they all know -- so wink, wink, nudge nudge, let's see just how far we can go with a mix of fact and patently ridiculous 'reasoning' and still get it published.

eh life-long learning a good thing

LOL

Chief Seattle said...

I don't think it's guilt. I think most teachers know the score on race. But what can they do about it? Their mission is explicitly to educate all children. They aren't allowed to give up like the rest of us. Their best bet is to leave the profession entirely or keep their mouths shut until they get enough seniority to go to a school where race isn't a problem. Or into administration, where one of the prerequisites is to publicly complain about race.

Black Sea said...

"Are you still sticking to the lonely ice floe of fundamentalism now . . . ?"

Go with the floe, Steve.

Toadal said...

Steve said:
What’s the simplest explanation for the mystery of English Learner Forevers? Olsen reviews various complicated flaws in how the schools have failed to meet their needs. But there is a much more obvious reason: they aren’t very bright and/or they aren’t very hard-working.

That explanation doesn't work for me since its not something California can spend millions of dollars on with no discernible change in outcome.

Since the Department of Education's NAEP Science results indicate Massachusetts students score 3rd in the US and California scores 47th, and all students have equal capabilities, all California teachers must be are incompetent, correct? Once we replace California teachers with newly hired Massachusetts teachers everything will be different, yet the same.

stari_momak said...

Whiskey, neither Newport Beach nor Lake Forest is known for its liberalism. There are plenty of well off areas in SoCal that are conservative, even on immigration issues. Even North San Diego county, which should be a sort of Silicon Valley south politically, has elected of 'tough on illegal immigration' guy in Brian Bilbray.

Bilbray, btw, used to be a Congressman representing part of San Diego city proper, but was unseated by a Jewish candidate as his district's demographics changed.

bbartlog said...

Re: '"Murder rates affect IQ scores: study."'

Interesting study, but I'm rather skeptical, especially when even the author (Sharkey) concedes:

'Curiously, there were enough murders in Hispanic neighborhoods but Latino children seemed unaffected.'

That suggests to me the possibility of data massage. Furthermore, thinking about my city (Pittsburgh), which has a substantial black population but relatively low levels of crime, I find the statistical approach that is outlined dubious. In a given year, sixty to eighty murders occur in the city. We know that the 'neighborhoods' that Starkey defines are smaller than the city, so in one of the more violent neighborhoods we might see a dozen murders in a year. Now, since the effect he describes wears off after a week to nine days, this means that in some years a murder would occur shortly before an important standardized test (such as the SAT), and in some years it wouldn't. If the effect is real and large, then the distribution of scores over time should be somewhat bimodal. Rather than try to find *similar* neighborhoods by some method that might overlook important variables, there is no reason he couldn't look at *exactly the same neigborhoods* (chosen from some set where murder was neither rare nor omnipresent), year over year, to compare test scores in years when a murder occured recently with years when no murder occured in the timeframe. Although this approach is vulnerable to changes in the neighborhood it isn't as likely to fall victim to incorrectly classifying 'good' and 'bad' neighborhoods as similar due to necessarily incomplete data.
More generally, don't assume that a single study is going to upend anyone's worldview. There are other interesting and anomalous (from our perspective) studies, such as that on mixed-race children born to black American WWII soldiers in Germany; but the overall picture is still pretty simple, and buttressed by literally hundreds of papers and studies.

Mark Caplan said...

Plato laid out a profound truth 2,400 years ago:


Polemarchus: Could you really persuade us if we don't listen?

Glaucon: There's no way.


If a student won't listen, the best teacher in the world won't be able to make an impression.

Anonymous said...

Are you still sticking to the lonely ice floe of fundamentalism now after this breakthrough research, which establishes a direct causal relationship that can't be explained away by other factors?

Correlation isn't causation. That study is a joke.

ben tillman said...

The majority of Long Term English Learners wants to go to college, and are unaware that their academic skills, record and courses are not preparing them to reach that goal. Neither students, their parents nor their community realizes that they are in academic jeopardy.

Two sentences.

One subject/verb disagreement, three comma errors, and a usage error.

Maybe the teachers should bear some of the blame after all.

Anonymous said...

"There is no single kind of liberal. Some are sincere and naive. Other are subversive and devious."

Does that mean none possess both astute intellect and integrity?

Melykin said...

Canada's solution to this problem is to simply not ever make any data regarding race and IQ or race and grades publicly available. In fact, such data is probably not collected. I guess it is taboo to even collect the data, much less publicize it.

Similarly no data about race and crime is every publicized. Actually there is one exception: I have read that First Nations people make up a disproportionate segment of the prison populations. This is publicized as evidence of racism against FN people.

It is easy to get an idea of which races tend to commit most crimes, at least in Toronto which are quite...vibrant.

Thanks a bunch to Pierre Trudeau for bringing multiculturalism to Canada.

TH said...

The IQ and murder study looks like a case of aggravated data torture.

Anonymous said...

it's funny how a racial-rabble-rouser like yourself sees race in everything. Teacher accountability movement is not mostly about closing the racial gap.

So, is there a racial gap or not?

Most ppl know that teachers make a big difference. I can attest to that.

But not quite the degree of posting even a single anecdotal example supporting that assertion.

Anonymous said...

Has anyone come up with a Grand Unified Theory pf educational disparities?

This new murder theory - has it been reconciled with Stereotype Threat, has it been reconciled with Fear of Acting White?

Furthermore, have Stereotype Threat & Fear of Acting White been reconciled with each other. And so on and so on...

I rather suspect that in the light of this murder theory we are supposed to just forget other earlier sociological explantions.

Forget literally.

Those explanations never even existed, so their troubling, hatethink refutations never existed either. The playing field nicely re-levelled. The new day can start with a shiny, brand new anti-racist explanation.

Anonymous said...

if you really want the poster case for probable collective PTSD look at Germany 1945-47 : catastrophic defeat, all cities reduced to rubble, mass rape by Soviet soldiers, millions of men in POW camps, 13 million expellees from the east(2 million having died during the process of fleeing to the shrunken Reich on foot) living in overcrowded housing with the locals-usually without running water and other utilities. Add starvation or near-starvation for many.

Yet in 1948, in such a devastated and demoralized country, Ludwig Erhard is able to launch the German Economic Miracle through ending price-fixing and production controls.

And no ,it wasn't the Marshall Plan:
http://www.the-rathouse.com/2009/Marshall-Plan.html

http://mises.org/freemarket_detail.aspx?control=120

http://www.newyorker.com/archive/2001/12/10/011210ta_talk_surowiecki

http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=6138

Anonymous said...

if you really want the poster case for probable collective PTSD look at Germany 1945-47 : catastrophic defeat, all cities reduced to rubble, mass rape by Soviet soldiers, millions of men in POW camps, 13 million expellees from the east(2 million having died during the process of fleeing to the shrunken Reich on foot) living in overcrowded housing with the locals-usually without running water and other utilities. Add starvation or near-starvation for many.

Yet in 1948 Ludwig Erhard is able to launch the German Economic Miracle through ending price-fixing and production controls.

And no, it wasn't the Marshall Plan:
http://www.the-rathouse.com/2009/Marshall-Plan.html

http://www.econlib.org/library/Enc/GermanEconomicMiracle.html

Pat Shuff said...

I am a 25 year veteran high school math teacher in a high performance high school. Virtually all discussion in Retooling The Education Factory is productive and interesting. However, the reasons offered for why we are spending an ever increasing amount of money are wrong. Public Law 94-142 Public Law 94-142, The Education For All Handicapped Children Act (IDEA) (U.S. Department of Education website) and Individuals with Disabilities Education Act (Wikipedia), is driving almost all spending increases and absorbing almost all the new money. Implementation of this law has completely distracted educators and distorted what is done in our schools since its passing. Ask any administrator or teacher how much of their time and energy is spent complying with it and you will find out what is really wrong in education in America today.

When I started teaching my high school had one educator with a half time secretary providing services to our special needs kids. We now have an entire cadre of teachers, support staff, and personal assistants. I really do not know the exact number, but I am fairly certain we now have at least a dozen full time people serving these kids. No other component of the staffing in my district has grown over this interval. We have been tight budget forever, have a lean administration, have increased class sizes and reduced teaching staffs, and cut programs of the type Michael Goodfellow thinks we need.

My district has a number of high schools, junior highs, and elementary schools. The staffing paradigm is the same in each: lean as hell at the core with a huge group providing services to special needs kids. In my opinion this is the great untold story of our era. People are absolutely correct about the raw and inflated dollars increasing steadily, they just do not know that it is virtually all going to serve the needs of our least able students - because the law mandates that we must and clever lawyers find ever more need for schools to provide ever increasing levels of service.

It is totally out of hand at this point.

Importantly, due to mainstreaming, all teachers are constantly distracted from teaching a truly robust curriculum by the need to make sure that kids who should never be taking advanced algebra, for example, have a chance at passing. These kids are in these classes these days because the law has a presumption that anyone can learn anything - we educators just need to make the appropriate adjustments to curriculum, testing, homework assigned, seating, provide personal notetakers, full time personal assistants, special small study groups with a full time teacher and only a handful of kids, etc.

http://tinyurl.com/2dk2lwq

Svigor said...

Here is an article that disproves a lot of what you've written: "Murder rates affect IQ scores: study."

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE65D5VW20100614?type=domesticNews

According to the author it accounts for one half of the black-white IQ gap. Are you still sticking to the lonely ice floe of fundamentalism now after this breakthrough research, which establishes a direct causal relationship that can't be explained away by other factors?


What do you say to someone who doesn't care if the cause is "irremediable X" or "irremediable Y"? No one's going to fix it any time soon, you're just haggling over PR.

keypusher said...

By the way, the original anonymous who posted the Reuters link to Sharkey's "study" was no doubt sarcastic in his reference to the lonely ice floe.

It's depressing as hell that there is such an appetite for Lysenkoism in this society...

To get back to the question Steve posed, of course elites don't feel bad about the consequences of mass immigration. They don't even make the connection between the 1965 INA and the country's current racial makeup. They sincerely believe that the gap can be closed with better teaching. There is no Inner Party.

Evil Sandmich said...

A slight typo, where it says :"The achievement gap pervades every corner of American educational policy discussion."; should be: "The achievement gap pervades every corner of American policy discussion. "

David Davenport said...

How about graphic art? With CGI and other special effects in Hollywood, there is a need for low-level hightech skills...

Yes indeed, the CGI industry needs an outreach program to lift up Hispanic graffiti artisans.

///////////////////////////

Question for iSteve, the sometimes meliorist liberal:

Assuming non-college-skill, vocational job openings exist, why do you think the regime's school systems-- so-called public schools -- would be any good at Voc. Ed.?

Many US high schools have had and continue to have "vocational" courses.

David said...

>Here is an article that disproves a lot of what you've written: "Murder rates affect IQ scores: study."<

Shredded effectively by previous commenters here.

Here is a more solid hypothesis:

-- IQ affects murder rates. --

>Humanity has never done any serious studies about what teaching techniques work best.<

Wow. Breathtaking. The mind reels. The last few thousand years were spent half-heartedly trying to figure out how to teach reading (for example) to the young, and nobody ever figured it out, eh?

Maybe what you mean is nobody ever scientifically figured out how unfailingly to impart relatively sophisticated conceptual skills to people with an IQ of a plant. No serious scientific study has ever been done of how to transform lead into gold, either.

>Inner city schools actually are full of teachers who don't even bother trying to teach, ever. They just let their kids talk until the bell rings. Or they show movies on unrelated subjects.<

Have you considered the possibility that these experienced teachers, who are on the ground and in the trenches, know something you don't?

You're late to this rodeo. Many generations of Ed people have entered the field before you, and indignantly squawked the line you're taking, and tried everything they could. But keep trying! After all, communism never got a fair trial, either - all those wreckers and all that bad weather....

wild chicken said...

"Since education is so 100% dominated by liberals, they can't blame the problems on conservatives."

What?? Of course they can. There's never enough funding for education, didn't you know? They need more, more, more money. It's never enough...

Anonymous said...

Disagree that this wasn't intended. Liberal elites see themselves as elite--so whether the nation is predominately white, black, hispanic, or green: they will be the ones in control re: Orwell's 1984. So it's not an issue for them that these people are functionally illiterate and a burden on society--it's enough that they can be swayed to vote for liberal leaders.

Kylie said...

Steve Sailer said..."Spanish is becoming uncool. That’s very good news because nothing can divide a country like language."

That's not my idea of good news.

Nor do I agree that nothing can divide a country like [the lack of a universal] language. History as well as the present shows us that ideological differences, whether religious or secular, can result in an impassable divide between peoples.

I infer you think language can help unite all who reside within the US. To me, that's akin that thinking a few family jokes will hold together a marriage in which one partner is a serial adulterer. Such an unheathy and dysfunctional union limps along only as long as the non-cheating spouse is willing to turn a blind eye to the other's transgressions. The only healthful options are the cheater stops cheating or the marriage ends. Otherwise, you end up with a marriage in name only. Kind of like how "united" our states are nowadays.

Obsidian said...

Thos who are familiar with me from over at OneSTDV's blog will know what i'm about to say, since he has a related blog post up right now over there.

It seems to me that a lot og the HBD blogger types - to my knowledge in the main they all seem to be White Males with a few exceptions - seem to focus on this "hispanization" of America issue, and I suppose it makes for good blog hits.

But the question I have is, why aren't you guys talking about something all of you can do -

have babies?

If indeed the future belongs to those who show up for it, then the simple solution is to replicate yourself. even if all the Hispanics, legal and illegal, disappeared from American shores tomorrow, you still have the very real problem of falling fertility among the "smart fraction" White folks. I know many of you here like to discuss the film Idiocracy. But there's a subtext in the movie that clearly shows smartie White folks agonizing over whether to have babies. They of course, died out.

So, instead of all this focus on "NAMs" and the babies they have - why not apply your great intellects as to why so many of YOU DON'T have babies? What is it about being so gosh-darn smart that makes making babies so darned hard?

Please explain?

Any takers?

The Obsidian

ben tillman said...

There is no Inner Party.

Sure there is. Kevin MacDonald saw it at Wisconsin, and I saw it at Brown.

ben tillman said...

On an IQ test using 100 as the average or norm, one standard deviation is 15 points. So if a child took the test within a week of a local murder, his or her score was 7-8 points lower on average than the score of a similar child in a similar neighborhood where there was no murder.

So the guy constructed the study in a way that would maximize the number of confounding variables. To test the conclusion he drew, he quite easily could have and should have reviewed the test results of the same children from the same neighborhood at different times.

alonzo portfolio said...

to Pat Shuff: fine, but wasn't the "special needs" situation out of control before the big wave of brown kids crested in the last ten years? Wasn't the special needs dodge driven by the inability of lefties in the ed establishment to simply make black kids behave? In fact, isn't much of that establishment now black? When I'm in Berkeley, I notice that there's a profusion of blacks at Tolman Hall, where the Ed courses are taught. It would seem that there's some kind of employment gusher for blacks through the state ed department.

Mercer said...

" why so many of YOU DON'T have babies?"

1 Even with the downturn housing is still very expensive where I live for a person with an average income.

2 About the only good paying stable jobs are with the government today and they want to hire a "diverse workforce" not white males.

3 Middle class parents are expected to spend every moment they are not at work supervising their kids and it looks exhausting to me. When I was growing up I played with kids in the neighborhood and my parents only cared that I came home for dinner.

4 I have seen my brothers divorce and deal with child custody issues. The current system is a nightmare for men.

5 I enjoy dogs and they are a lot cheaper.

I don't advocate childless but the issues I raised above probably explains why many white men are reluctant. The political class is mostly indifferent to our concerns (especially the family court issues)so appeals to group loyalty fall flat with me.

David Davenport said...

More college-educated jump tracks to become skilled manual laborers

By Carol Morello
Washington Post Staff Writer
Tuesday, June 15, 2010


A summer job with a plumber turned into a career for Jarrad Taylor, who left Penn State after two years.

Jarrad Taylor had some preparation for his career: He studied mechanical engineering while at Penn State. He used to be embarrassed by his job, but having a fatter wallet than his friends' has ended that. (Xiaomei Chen/the Washington Post) ...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/06/14/AR2010061402838.html

Steve, it seems to me that you're parroting the US Chamber of Commerce party line that we have to let all the Mexicans and Whatnots in 'cuz they're doing "jobs Americans cannot or will not do."

So, even if they're queer, they're here, and older stock Americans will just have to get used to it.

Sorry, but I don't agree with that party line.

Max said...


IQ differentials, along with wildly different cultural norms, will doubtless prevent any closure in racial gaps (unless the schools just refuse to teach white and Asian kids).


I suspect that would have completely opposite effects. Whites and Asian will receive home and private schooling, public school will rapidly degenerate into sub Saharan African equivalents

I probably in fact would welcome that change as state sponsored public school system looks broken beyond repair

Anonymous said...

keypusher:

Yes, Judis wimps out in his conclusion. No doubt about it.

You can read my comments in Steve's next thread, "Better Late than Never."

-pd in sf

Anonymous said...

Obsidian,

I think the only way to answer your question would be to ask Steve to take a census and Half Sigma and so on. It might well be that most of the audience is married with kids. It's not easy to determine what's the case otherwise.

Having said that, it's probably better for people who are unsuccessful in love to try and encourage smart people to have babies and be willing to support them, if that's their interest, rather than complaining.

What makes having babies hard(er) for smarties is a combination of overestimating the cost of childcare and rearing (overly responsible "My child must have the best because I'm so deeply empathic that I couldn't bear to harm a child by raising it sub par") and of a greater awareness of hedonic and intellectual pleasures and ability to plan your life to take advantage of them. I think intelligent people have less sex as well, but this isn't practically a limit to how many children they have (contra taking precautions). It's not the 'explanation' you seem to think it is. I'm fairly certain that if you controlled for the two reasons I've given above, sex drive wouldn't come into play.

bye,

Anonymous said...

They say that laughter is the best medicine. If that's so I must have picked up five more years of life expectancy when I read "the racial gap in achievement is the fault of ... schoolteachers.

Albertosaurus

Anonymous said...

“Last year, only 51% of the babies born in the country were white, and that percentage is falling about one point per year."



Man it hurts to read that. Boy are we going to be hurting in 2050. Unfortunately I dont think our elites will be disabused of these notions until they aren't getting their way politically, much like that white South Carolina Democrat who lost an election to a black guy who barely campaigned. Blood is thicker than water, and corporations will not protect the overclass eventually from negative externalities (like other people who can vote higher taxes on you).

Anonymous said...

"Spanish is becoming uncool. That’s very good news because nothing can divide a country like language."

That's not my idea of good news

It is good news. It destoys the fiction that the millions of hispanic immigrants are in some way your fellow citizens.

They are not.

Oh they might have been given a passport and such but that doesnt mean anything now and will come to mean less and less with every passing year.

Language will just be one more divide.

You cant survive if you dont know where you stand on the 'them and us test'. Language helps with that one.

Obsidian said...

Yet there as here, the responses, when they aren't laced with strawmaen, Ad Hominem or otherwise diversionary fluff, is rife with excuse making. ONLY Whiskey has said anything that just might come to the truth here. And, given the utter lack of focus on this question in ANY major HBD forum of note, it makes perfect sense from a parsimonious point of view. After all, who wants to openly admit that they just might be evolutionary losers?

What Roissy does or doesn't take up as a matter of discussion and focus is wholly irrelevant One, and you know it. His is a forum that is completely different in orientation and scopr than is yours. I am asking YOU, why it is that, if America is so worthy of preserving as you once knew it, why Whites like YOU are failing to reproduce yourselves? This is question you have just flatout refused to answer. However, you have near infinite energy and focus to question why "NAMs" can reproduce at the rate they do.

Again, fascinating.

Harold,
I don't doubt what you say in relation to higher vs lower IQ Blacks and their mating/birthing patterns, but for purposes of this discussion it is wholly irrelevant, as the discussion didn't have anything to do with such folk in the first place. I therefore respectfully decline to take up your strawman quesry.

Kiwi Guy also gets an honorable mention in light of his comments.

Put all this together with the fact that, since President Reagan, we have had more Republican Presidents than Democratic, and NONE of them has done ANYTHING to address the issue, that of illegal Hispanic immgigration, in the manner you gents desire - a real irony and political betrayal I might add, since the vast majority of you consider yourselves to be at least nominally center right in your political orientation and outlook. But, if one applies Occam's Razor, the reasons for this is quite simple, and I repeat again for emphasis:

The Left likes things the way they are because it gives them a reliable voting bloc...one that is growing.

The Right likes things the way they are because it gives its business minded constituents a steady flow of *cheap* labor. That's the keyword here, gents - cheap. Which makes perfect sense if you're a diehard capitalist, and should come as no surprise here since so many of your are believers in the free market...right?

In closing, the future belongs to those who deem it important enough to show up for it. If Smart White Guys like OneSTDV, Whiskey, Camlost and others, cannot figure out how to make sure there are remnants of themselves walking around circa 2050, then per Darwin's theory, they deserve to be weeded out of existence. Nature abhors a vacuum, and they will be replaced. If current birthing trends are any indication, Hispanics are doing this replacement job quite nicely.

Get cracking fellas.

The Obsidian

Obsidian said...

I just posted this comment over at OneSTDV's blog, who also has a post up on illegal Hispanic immigration; you can see the post and my comments, here:

http://onestdv.blogspot.com/2010/06/arizona-illegal-immigration-law-goes.html

Here's my latest comment, and I welcome any input from the iSteve readership:

Once again I find the comments fascinating.

Whiskey - with all due respect you are arguing a strawman. Not once in my entire discussion did I mention anything about Black folks. They are, for purposes of this discussion, irrelevant. We are discussing White folks and Hispanic illegal immigration. However, I do have to give you much credit for daring to actually say what ostensible defenders of truth and keeping it real, like OneSTDV and Camlost, won't say - that the major reason why Smart White guys like you all aren't having babies, is because White Women would rather shack up with Juan or bad boy Jesse James. If that is the case, and it seems as good an explanation as any other, say hello to that Smithsonian exhibit, The Late Great White Guy.

OneSTDV, for your information, I did indeed comment on a recent Sailer thread that took up the question of Hispanic illegal immigration, and mentioned by name, the film Idiocracy; don't take my word for it, please by all means, see for yourself:

"Thos who are familiar with me from over at OneSTDV's blog will know what i'm about to say, since he has a related blog post up right now over there.

It seems to me that a lot og the HBD blogger types - to my knowledge in the main they all seem to be White Males with a few exceptions - seem to focus on this "hispanization" of America issue, and I suppose it makes for good blog hits.

But the question I have is, why aren't you guys talking about something all of you can do -

have babies?

If indeed the future belongs to those who show up for it, then the simple solution is to replicate yourself. even if all the Hispanics, legal and illegal, disappeared from American shores tomorrow, you still have the very real problem of falling fertility among the "smart fraction" White folks. I know many of you here like to discuss the film Idiocracy. But there's a subtext in the movie that clearly shows smartie White folks agonizing over whether to have babies. They of course, died out.

So, instead of all this focus on "NAMs" and the babies they have - why not apply your great intellects as to why so many of YOU DON'T have babies? What is it about being so gosh-darn smart that makes making babies so darned hard?

Please explain?

Any takers?

The Obsidian"

http://isteve.blogspot.com/2010/06/english-learner-lifers.html

Curvaceous Carbon-based Life Form said...

"What is it about being so gosh-darn smart that makes making babies so darned hard?"

Obsidian,

Okay, I'll bite.
Pay attention.

We're smart. We're also White. Therefore, we're NOT given affirmative action, nor welfare.

Because we are smart we are 2 things: capable of foresight and capable of earning a good living.
Gov't knows this. Therefore they tax the he** out of us for the sin of making good money.

Because we have foresight, we don't want to have kids in the ghettoes, which have the advantage of being cheap, true, but the disadvantage of the other ghetto kids beating ours up.
Therefore we must earn a lot of money to afford good (i.e., White) neighborhoods for the safety of our kids, at which time gov't commences taxing he** out of us. So we can't afford the kids, anyway.

And we REFUSE to have kids if it means, due to our poverty, subjecting them to ghetto life.
To summarize:
We won't have kids unless we can give them good neighborhoods. Gov't taxation gives our money to non-Whites on welfare so we don't have it for our own kids.

We are caught in a perfect catch-22.
Get it?

What White people need is for gov't to contol the borders, allow us to keep the riffraff out so that the free market will provide the affordable housing in safe neighborhoods we need to procreate.
We Whites are hothouse flowers. Gov't is destroying our hothouse. Due to loss of habitat, we are unable to procreate. We are being genocided.

Chuck said...

Anonymous said...
Here is an article that disproves a lot of what you've written: "Murder rates affect IQ scores: study."
.....
IT DOES NO SUCH THING

This is the actual paper.

Note that the effects "faded aways in the window of time" of approximately 10 days. And the found depression is relative to African American scores. From the article: "So that all comparisons are made within race/ethnic group... whites and members of other ethnic groups are excluded."

Given that the mean differences between African Americans and European Americans are measured excluding low SES African American samples (refer to Murray) and given that this study does not compare the effects on populations but only compares them within the Black and Hispanic population.... Keep reaching into that bag of tricks.

Nice spin by the media though.

Anonymous said...

So, instead of all this focus on "NAMs" and the babies they have - why not apply your great intellects as to why so many of YOU DON'T have babies? What is it about being so gosh-darn smart that makes making babies so darned hard?

You're asking the wrong people. You need to ask the people with the uteruses. And not the ones who aren't having the babies either - you need to ask the ones who are having babies. Except we're too damn busy and tired to answer you.

Chuck said...

Curvaceous Carbon-based Life Form said...

"Here is an article that disproves a lot of what you've written: "Murder rates affect IQ scores: study."
I'm not buying it.
.....................

While Liberals try to spin this as "white society effected the gap by allowing for high intraBlack crime rates," the paper actually only said that Black and Hispanic IQ scores were affected by crime rates. Which says nothing about the relation between groups. Didn't Lewontin make the point that moving from intra to inter was an erroneous move?

Anonymous said...

What makes having babies hard(er) for smarties is a combination of overestimating the cost of childcare and rearing (overly responsible "My child must have the best because I'm so deeply empathic that I couldn't bear to harm a child by raising it sub par")

Or but exposing it to sub-par (i.e. "normal") children.

Anonymous said...

O,

"So, instead of all this focus on "NAMs" and the babies they have - why not apply your great intellects as to why so many of YOU DON'T have babies? What is it about being so gosh-darn smart that makes making babies so darned hard?"

The point largely isn't that NAMS are being
self-destructive and acting stupid. They are acting as ideal Darwinians, Smithians, and, at times, Machiavellians, largely maximizing their advantage given the situation. It's as if the lower class ones are payed to maximize their advantage. They would have to be pretty moral not too. (I used to live in China as the White guy that got paid to piss around and smile to the chagrin of my Han colleagues -- and I surely didn't go out of my way to correct the insanity). The point largely is that the system is insane. Individual Whites are taxed, and NAMs are advantaged, because of average relative performance differences, which have little to do with the relation between the two. Assuming this is a bad thing, and it is for those whites that do not indirectly benefit from it (via moral jolly, status gaming, or being a part of the system), and given that the insanity is rationalized on the basis of justice -- it is only reasonable to point out 1) the madness of the situation and 2) the real facts of the matter -- or at least make the case for an alternative reading.

Nice articles on Spearhead, by the way.

Obsidian said...

Hi Curvaceous Carbon!

Replies below:

CC: Okay, I'll bite.
Pay attention.

O: OK!

CC: We're smart. We're also White. Therefore, we're NOT given affirmative action, nor welfare.

O: That's because you don't need it. You're smart. And White.

Remember?

CC: Because we are smart we are 2 things: capable of foresight and capable of earning a good living.
Gov't knows this. Therefore they tax the he** out of us for the sin of making good money.

O: Then you can't possibly be as smart as you say, because if you were, you'd figure out a way to get around at least part of those onerous taxes. And please don't give me another excuse, because it's been proven that it can be done.

CC: Because we have foresight, we don't want to have kids in the ghettoes, which have the advantage of being cheap, true, but the disadvantage of the other ghetto kids beating ours up.

O: Shrugs. There are plenty of places in the USA where there are virtually no NAMs. Try again.

CC: Therefore we must earn a lot of money to afford good (i.e., White) neighborhoods for the safety of our kids, at which time gov't commences taxing he** out of us. So we can't afford the kids, anyway.

O: Bull. There are many affordable areas of the USA where there are virtually no NAMs and where tax rates are much lower than say, NYC. You just don't wanna move there. That's your fault.

CC: And we REFUSE to have kids if it means, due to our poverty, subjecting them to ghetto life.

O: Again: Bull. There aren't any Black folk in Butte, or Des Moines, or Fargo. Try. Again.

CC: To summarize:
We won't have kids unless we can give them good neighborhoods. Gov't taxation gives our money to non-Whites on welfare so we don't have it for our own kids.

O: Wrong. Gov't gives your money to other White guys on Wall St and Big Oil.

CC: We are caught in a perfect catch-22.
Get it?

O: Nope. You are making BS excuses. Get it?

CC: What White people need is for gov't to contol the borders, allow us to keep the riffraff out so that the free market will provide the affordable housing in safe neighborhoods we need to procreate.

O: There are plenty of safe neighborhoods in Butte, Des Moines and Fargo. What are you waiting for?

CC: We Whites are hothouse flowers. Gov't is destroying our hothouse. Due to loss of habitat, we are unable to procreate. We are being genocided.

O: Bull. You Whites circa 2010 are soft, fat and pussies. Your forebears settled the Old West and had a heckl of alot less than you do today. There are entire swaths of the country where there are virtually zero NAMs. Nor are the taxes high, the population and housing costs are low, etc. Stop making excuses. You're starting to make smart White folks look bad. And I say that as a Black Man.

O.

David said...

>What is it about being so gosh-darn smart that makes making babies so darned hard?<

We invest a lot in each one. Rushton talks about this. For example, we generally stick around and help the mother to rear them.

>There are plenty of safe neighborhoods in Butte, Des Moines and Fargo. What are you waiting for?<

Isn't it enough the government chased much of us out of our industrial north during 1950-1990, and moved y'all in? Now you want to do it again - and chase us out of the CURRENT communities that we built?

Here's an idea. There is plenty of space in Antarctica. Why don't you move there?

Mercer said...

Obsidian

"you'd figure out a way to get around at least part of those onerous taxes. And please don't give me another excuse, because it's been proven that it can be done."

Please explain how to avoid the alternative minimum tax other then having a cash business.

" many affordable areas of the USA where there are virtually no NAMs and where tax rates are much lower than say, NYC. You just don't wanna move there. That's your fault."

How many places are there with high paying jobs. Even if she could found a place and move the area might diversify in the future.

"Stop making excuses. You're starting to make smart White folks look bad. And I say that as a Black Man."

As a black man why do you care about the white birthrate?

Truth said...

Mercer said...

" why so many of YOU DON'T have babies?"

"We're smart. We're also White. Therefore, we're NOT given affirmative action, nor welfare..."

Why not just answer the question honestly?...


"Because I'm a phony-assed, weak, selfish, Swipple hypocrite who would rather sit here on Isteve whining about the impending doom of white people due to low birth rates than actually put forth the WORK and EFFORT (look em' up) to help alleviate the problem."

You're welcome.

"We Whites are hothouse flowers."

You said it, I didn't.

Lucius Vorenus said...

And I say that as a Black Man.

I like this guy's attitude.

[BTW, O., if you're new here (?), then welcome aboard.]

Anonymous said...

Obsinian,

I'd imagine that the posters on this blog pay their own way in life. That is, I'd be surprised to discover that posters on this blog are collecting welfare.

Responsible people, that is, people who don't believe they should mooch off others, believe that if they are going to have kids, they should be prepared financially to support them and supporting those kids requires planning, work, investment, and time, time to save.

Illegals flooding over the border use us, the taxpayer, to pay for their medical bills, to pay for their food stamps, to pay for the section 8 vouchers that the women get when they have anchor baby after baby after baby.

You see, when you are irresponsible, when you rely on others to pay for you and yours, you don't worry about how many babies you produce.

Yes, posters here are not likely to have as many babies as the moochers do because they are trying to be responsible for the babies they produce.

What ideas--responsibility and self-reliance.

Curvaceous Carbon-based Life Form said...

: "Shrugs. There are plenty of places in the USA where there are virtually no NAMs. Try again."

Yeah, I know. I fled a high-NAM area for a low one. Not Butte, but close.
Dam%%ed if the Mexican-flavored NAMs aren't showing up here, now, too.


"Then you can't possibly be as smart as you say, because if you were, you'd figure out a way to get around at least part of those onerous taxes. And please don't give me another excuse, because it's been proven that it can be done."

My IQ is 130. The IRS is staffed with a veritable army of agents that smart and smarter to figure out my dodges long before I ever even thought of 'em. Nope. Not a chance I'm gonna take, any more than I'd put my 5th grader in a minority-majority school.

And why SHOULD I be put in a situation where I need to commit tax-fraud and risk losing everything I've worked for through IRS audits and penalties and court costs defending myself, in my own country? Where's the justice? Especially since those onerous taxes are taken and given to the NAMs to breed, instead of me.

And you've got the gall to insist that this is all "excuses"?!


"Your forebears settled the Old West and had a heckl of alot less than you do today"
You picked the wrong person to toss that one at. Matter of fact, my great-grampas were homesteaders out here in the Wild Wild West. Yeah, they had Indians to deal with. Difference is, if Great-Grampa shot one, it was the default assumption by U.S. gov't to have been in self-defense. U.S. gov't was protecting the hothouse.
Gramma had ten kids -- because she and Grampa had a farm to support 'em all and got to keep the fruits of their labor (income tax was like 2%) rather than have it confiscated and given to NAMs to support THEIR offspring.

I don't kid myself, O, that you have any sympathy for the plight of White folk. We'll solve our problems ourselves, like White people always do. But you DID ask why the drop in birthrates. Here's why. Calling it "excuses" means you're not really curious; you're just trolling.

Curvaceous Carbon-based Life Form said...

"Why not just answer the question honestly?..."

I did. P*** off.

The "hothouse flowers" are the White children. We care about them. We realize they are little people in need of protection. Therefore, we don't subject them, willingly, to hellhole ghettos/ minority-majority schools, like NAMs do. If we can't keep them safe and provided for, we don't have them. Simple as that.

john henry's hammer said...

The Mexican-Americans are going to be outraged when they find out that you don't consider them white folks. Seriously. If you just stuck to the anti-Negro rhetoric, they'd love ya like tamales.

I've been watching a fair amount of Spanish language TV for the World Cup, and it's pretty clear los amigos see themselves as white as possible. Most of the people on Mexican TV are whiter than most of the people on Italian TV.

Obsidian seems to have asked a question that none of y'all can effectively answer. He's dead on, and it's a question I've often wondered about.

On the other hand, upper middle class black folks really don't reproduce themselves either. Every new black generation is drawn largely from the ranks of the black poor. College educated black women have fewer kids than just about anybody.

This is still a very white country, and in spite of all the whining and excuse making hereabouts, a smart white guy who works hard can achieve a hell of a lot. Taxes and regulation are still lower than anywhere in Western Europe. The social capital, infrastructure, and government are better and less corrupt than anywhere in Eastern Europe.

My old roomates from college are all doing great and saving the white race one baby at a time. Of course, none of them has ever had a problem getting laid. Unlike, well, you know ...

Once you get outside of the South and the major metro areas on the coasts and Great Lakes region, there are almost no black folks. Why not head to the hinterlands and have lots of babies?

I don't really buy the idea that Mexicans aren't white folks, since they are for the most part a fifty fifty blend of European and Central Asian genes (cold adapted, like totally!), who speak a European language and follow Europe's most traditional religion.

They're just white folks who behave badly, just like the Irish Catholics in the 19th century. I fully expect that we'll have our very own version of the Civil War draft riots the next time a black cop gets acquitted for beating down some Mexican kid.

Damn. I better hurry up and get that next promotion so I can move to Simi. LA is not going to be any kind of place for a large Negro like myself when they get bold enough to start hunting us down in broad daylight.

Curvaceous Carbon-based Life Form said...

"Gov't gives your money to other White guys on Wall St and Big Oil. "

Oh, there's plenty of that going on, now, too.

But, yeah, gov't takes my tax dollars and gives it to NAMs in a myriad of ways. Do I really have to conduct a class for you on this? I will, if I must, and if you promise to pay attention.

And no, the bailouts aren't the reason for the White birthrate drop. It started long before 2009. The White birthrate began dropping off in the '70s, shortly after Lyndon Johnson's "Great Society" (including welfare) horkey was passed and the inflation it caused got raging good. (Inflation is what you get when gov't prints money to fund gov't spending sneakily so that us rubes don't grab the pitchforks. The money-printing devalues the dollar, so the effect is the same thing as a hidden tax.)

Curvaceous Carbon-based Life Form said...

"You're starting to make smart White folks look bad. And I say that as a Black Man."

I just realized something. I'm arguing with you, O, but it's rather pointless, because our starting premises are different.

You think it's all about you and your Black coethnics.

Dude, it's not. It's NOT all about you. In fact, it's fast becoming mostly about the mestizoes. Black sociopathology is beginning to pale in comparison to the ginormous size of the problem of the Mexican immivasion.

You need to realize, "NAMs" means non-Asian minorities -- that is, Blacks AND mestizoes.

Obsidian said...

Curvaceous Carbon,
I was gonna respond in greater detail, but John Henry beat me to it. In short, your making BS excuses, CC. But fear not, for I have come up with the solution for folk like you. It's the topic of my new post. Hang tight, it'll be up very soon.:)

O.

Anonymous said...

...I don't really buy the idea that Mexicans aren't white folks, since they are for the most part a fifty fifty blend of European and Central Asian genes (cold adapted, like totally!), who speak a European language and follow Europe's most traditional religion.

They're just white folks who behave badly, just like the Irish Catholics in the 19th century. I fully expect that we'll have our very own version of the Civil War draft riots the next time a black cop gets acquitted for beating down some Mexican kid...


Okay, I just re-read that, and now I'm pretty sure that you're being facetious.

Which is a shame, because the original version of this post was going to contrast Penélope Cruz, Cote de Pablo, and Salma Hayek [like Carlos Slim, a child of the Lebanese diaspora] with your typical Nahuatl/Yucatec/Mixtec/Zapotec babe.

Anonymous said...

Western women control how many babies they have, not men. With rare exception,the number of children those women have drops in relation to their level of education, across the ethnic board. At work, I recently listened to several middle aged Puerto Rican women bemoan the fact that their well educated, married children had told them that they plan to have either no children, or only one child. How many kids do the President and First Lady have?

Only people with boundless income or people who are prepared to have and raise their kids on the public dime can afford many children. Middle class people trying to maintain any sort of life style generally can't afford more than a few. No big mystery.

Anonymous said...

"We Whites are hothouse flowers."

You said it, I didn't.

And I say, what the hell is wrong with being a hothouse flower?

That is a strength, not a weakness, of the White race. Maybe the number-one strength. Whites who persecute other Whites ofr being "hothouse flowers" or "nerds" or "autistic" are the biggest race traitors.

David said...

(repeat) "There is plenty of space in Antarctica. Why don't you move there?"

Not even a nibble on this one?

Anonymous said...

"Middle class people trying to maintain any sort of life style generally can't afford more than a few."

I know normal middle class folks with 6-10 kids. Yeah, they are religious, but they live in normal nice middle class suburban neighborhoods. They are not rich. They remind me of my neighbors when I was a kid.

Curvaceous Carbon-based Life Form said...

"know normal middle class folks with 6-10 kids. Yeah, they are religious, but they live in normal nice middle class suburban neighborhoods. They are not rich. They remind me of my neighbors when I was a kid."

Tell us how they do it.

Anonymous said...

Tell us how they do it.

Old cars.

Hand-me-down clothes.

Used books [rather than new] for home-schooling.

[BTW, home-schooling = better education + no expensive private school tuition = killing two birds with one stone.]

No restaurant meals.

No hotel vacations - only day trips; sleep with relatives when you have to go out of town.

To the greatest extent possible, teach your own swimming lessons, music lessons, foreign-language lessons, etc, rather than hiring outsiders to teach them for you.

Make your backyard [and the woods behind it] your own year-round "summer camp", rather than paying to send the kids to a commercial summer camp.

Etc etc etc...


PS: CRAIGSLIST!!!

Never buy "new" again.

Purchase used at pennies on the dollar.

[Maybe I shouldn't say this - so as not to let the cat out of the bag - but Craigslist is possibly the Left's greatest gift to conservatives (and especially home-schoolers) since basically the dawn of time.]


PPS: Old fixer-up houses, with lots of trips to Lowes and/or Home Depot, so as to Do-It-Yourself.

Curvaceous Carbon-based Life Form said...

Thank you, anon.

Do you have an estimate of what their house payment is in relation to income? Do they just accept that their housing eats a monstrous percentage of their income? How did they qualify for such a loan? "Stated income" during the bubble?

So much of Whites' problem lies in the fact that houses large enough for 6 kids (at least 3-4 bedrooms) in good, safe, i.e. White, neighborhoods cost so much, in areas where incomes are good.

OR, Obsidian's dismissal as "excuses" notwithstanding, us here in the Mountain States have limited choices in careers that pay well (basically healthcare / petroleum engineering) and/or must accept huge amounts of travel or must accept low pay (tourism) because the variety of industries is limited. So for many Whites the Mountain States are not an option.

And even at that, here come the mestizoes. Geez, I was in the grocery store today and heard more Spanish than English.

Anonymous said...

"As a black man why do you care about the white birthrate?"

Why does this blog of white people enjoy discussing black problems?


Why do you bother to inquire about his motive? Is that your lame response after getting a verbal beat down from a black man?

Anonymous said...

Right now, Harvard has thrown its support behind illegal immigrant student Eric Balderas, arguing he shouldn't be deported. It's an interesting contrast between him Adam Wheeler, who Harvard wanted the book thrown at after he fraudulently received admission. Harvard professors and students are too brainwashed to notice the irony or contradiction.

David said...

>black problems<

Black problems are our problems.

While white problems aren't yours.

Still no answer to my Antarctica question. Cowards.

Anonymous said...

"And why SHOULD I be put in a situation where I need to commit tax-fraud and risk losing everything I've worked for through IRS audits and penalties and court costs defending myself, in my own country? Where's the justice? Especially since those onerous taxes are taken and given to the NAMs to breed, instead of me."

Exactly, We are subsidizing the invasion. It's unbelievable. We are also subsidizing the black people so they can have a bunch of kids we will support. How many black guys have a child by more than one women?

Anonymous said...

" why so many of YOU DON'T have babies'

This society is completely unstable. You never know when you are going to be laid off or fired, so you don't have a steady income to rely on. People want to raise a child like they were raised I think and many white people in their 30's and 40's aren't doing as well as their parents and can't provide they same upbringing that they had, so they don't want children.

I couldn't imgaine having a child when I see all the terrible things that can happen.

I think it was Schopenshuaer who said ,If having a baby was rationally thought out, the human race would die out. I think people are more rational now and can control the birth rate with the pill etc..

Teddy Roosevelt wrote about race suicide 100 years ago. Nobody would have the guts to say that now because whites aren't allowed to see themsevles as a race.

Anonymous said...

"They sincerely believe that Mexicans, after some initial problems, will assimilate and climb the socioeconomic ladder the way white ethnics did in the mid-20th Century.'

I don't really care if they did;I still don't want them here. I don't want any immigrants from anywhere,including Europeans.

Anonymous said...

"why aren't more white people having kids?"

If we didn't allow all the immigration, it wouldn't matter.

Truth said...

"Black problems are our problems.

While white problems aren't yours."

On the contrary, Grasshopper; If, as you believe, black people would cease to exist without white people than your reproduction problems are very much our, right?

And as far as the Antartica thing, I wasn't complaining about my living situation, you were.