January 21, 2011

Goldberg, Beck, Fox Piven.

As I mentioned yesterday, Jeffrey Goldberg of The Atlantic is accusing Glenn Beck of "a classic case of anti-Semitic dog-whistling" by "Beck's recent naming of nine people -- eight of them Jews -- as enemies of America and humanity." See, everybody is supposed to at all times know who is Jewish, or you could be an anti-Semite. You are also supposed to not know, because only anti-Semites know that stuff.

Goldberg admits that he can't prove that Beck knew that eight of nine people on his eccentric list are Jews, but
But Beck is a smart person, and has researchers at hand with access to Wikipedia. Further, most of these people on Beck's "big lie" list are already the targets of straightforward attacks in the dark, anti-Semitic corners of the Web, so an extended Google search, in some cases, would show that much of the opposition to some of these people is motivated by anti-Semitism.

Yet, how much Internet searching did Goldberg do before accusing Beck of anti-Semitism? For example, where's the Internet evidence for Goldberg's "eight of them Jews" assertion? In particular, Goldberg should explain how he's so sure that sociologist Frances Fox Piven, co-founder of the National Welfare Rights Organization back in 1966, is Jewish. Where's the Internet evidence for that?

Piven and her second husband Richard Cloward were Columbia U. professors who were highly influential in the 1960s and 1970s advocating for expanding the number of people on welfare. (In 1976, I read a book by them, The Politics of Turmoil: Essays on Poverty, Race, and the Urban Crisis, that was assigned reading for my History of the 1960s class at Rice U.) Eventually, most people figured out that putting more people on welfare was a really bad idea and their reputation receded to academia (where they, evidently, are still worshiped as gods), but they had another triumph with the Democrat's Motor Voter act in 1993.

I've wasted an hour poking around on Google and I can't find much evidence that Frances Fox Piven is Jewish.  (Nor any evidence that she's not Jewish.) Here, for example, is Fox Piven's Wikipedia page, which doesn't mention anything about it.

I found one one fellow on Media Matters on January 14, 2011 saying that eight of the nine on Beck's list are Jewish. Perhaps Goldberg is just echoing him on the theory that an organization as trustworthy and unbiased as George Soros and David Brock's Media Matters has to be unbiased and trustworthy. On the other hand, at Matzav.com, commenter Yerachmiel Lopin asserts, "The most radical name on the list, more radical than Soros, is Frances Fox Piven who is not Jewish." I would take both assertions with about equal weight.

Frances Fox was was born in Calgary in 1932. Piven is the name of her first husband. (Maybe she converted to Judaism when she married her first husband and then, like Walter Sobchak, didn't convert back after the divorce because of "3000 years of beautiful tradition, from Moses to Sandy Koufax." I don't know.)

Is Fox a Jewish name? Sometimes, sometimes not. Wikipedia, which features a gigantic list of semi-famous people named Fox, explains that "Fox or Foxe or Foxx is a surname originating in England and Ireland." For example, actor Michael J. Fox was also born in Alberta. As far as I know, Michael J. Fox, Charles James Fox, Jimmy Foxx, and Redd Foxx weren't Jewish. On the other hand, Beck's Fox News is named after William Fox, who Anglicized his mother's surname of Fuchs. Moreover, the bass player in The Runaways, Jackie Fox, went back to being Jackie Fuchs at Harvard Law School, where the youthful Barack Obama reminded her of her former bandmate Joan Jett, who starred in Light of Day with Michael J. Fox. (See, it really is all connected, just like Beck says.)

Perhaps Goldberg once exchanged the secret handshake with Frances Fox Piven, which is why he's so sure about her. I don't know. 

It all seems increasingly farcical.

I can't imagine how Beck, who sounds like the epitome of the clueless goyishe kopf, is supposed to know these things.

Of course, he's also supposed to not know these things. Damned if he does and damned if he doesn't.

60 comments:

Anonymous said...

This guy seems to be getting the anti-Semitism causality backwards. You think maybe people are suspicious of Jews because, you know, Marx? Freud? That kinda stuff?

Whatevs.

Anonymous said...

Jews are a powerful and influential people. If one were to name 10 great noble people of the 20th century, 8 of 10 or even 10 of 10 could arguably be Jewish. But 8 of 10 evil figures of the 20th century could also be Jewish. It comes with the territory. Power and influence can be used for good or for bad. People with great power tend to do both great good and great evil.
Same with Germans. We can name many great wonderful Germans of the 20th century but also many bad ones. It comes with greatness. A great people are greatly good and greatly evil.

I'm sure Goldberg wouldn't mind a philosemitic list where all 10 of 10 great people of the 20th century are Jewish. Then he must be prepared to understand that there could also be a list with many bad Jews. If Jews can be overrepresented in the good, why not also in the bad?
Similarly, we can mention many wonderful Italians, but if we were to make up a list of top crime bosses in the 20th century, a disproporationate number would be Italians too.
Same goes for Anglos. Lots of great Anglos but also lots of bad ones.

Of course, 'good' or 'bad' depends on one's ideology. Given that Beck is on the right and most Jews have been on the left, it's only natural that Beck would have problems with lots of Jewish intellectuals. But then given the sordid history of Nazism, many Jews would probably include many Germans on the top 10 evil list of the 20th century. No brainer.

Anonymous said...

Of course, anyone who has ever watched Glenn Beck's show knows that he is very pro-Jewish, and extremely anti-racialist. One of the key figures at his Washington rally was John Hagee, for crying out loud.

The same is true of Sarah Palin, another militant Zionist that the mass media insists is anti-Semitic. We also frequently hear about how anti-Israel Barack Obama is even though nothing could be further from the truth, and Obama was propelled into power largely by Chicago's Jewish community.

Jews rule both the left and the right in America with an iron fist, and these assertions to the contrary are nothing more than a PR campaign to try to conceal that fact.

Anonymous said...

I suspect Beck is just fine with Milton Friedman, Ludwig von Mises, and Murray Rothbard.

agnostic said...

post of the year

SFG said...

Down to 7 of 9? If Beck didn't care one way or the other, why would he bother to check in the first place?


Personally I just think Beck's done just enough research to go after the liberal intelligentsia, though some of his picks seem a little silly. You're putting Cass Sunstein on a level with Freud and Marx? 20 years from now nobody's going to remember that guy, just like nobody remembers Frances Fox Piven.

eaterofshrimp said...

I remember looking into the ancestry of Cloward and Piven a while back and concluding that the lack of evidence in this case was evidence of absence. Had they been Jewish, The Politics of Turmoil would demand as much attention as The Authoritarian Personality among the Jew-critical.

Anonymous said...

Glen Beck could have avoided all this by submitting his commentaries in advance to a certified Jewish person? Perhaps we should all be assigned our own Mr. Goldberg to avoid making such horrible mistakes ourselves? They could be like the all powerful parish priests of yesteryear. What could be wrong with that? Do you want another Hitler?

Simon in London said...

Personally, when I watched Beck I assumed Frances Fox Piven was Jewish, due to her appearance, words and demeanour. I wouldn't have guessed Edward Bernays was Jewish if Beck hadn't mentioned his relation to Freud.

BTW Beck did say that Bernay's mind control techniques were sometimes used for Good - and he gave the US African-American Civil Rights Struggle as an example of such beneficial thought control.

Evil Sandmich said...

I guess Beck was right in his point since Goldberg didn't even bother to defend the 'gang of 8's ideas and ran up the anti-semitism flag instead.

Anonymous said...

The way you determine Piven is (likely) Jewish is not by looking on the internet but by meeting or at least seeing her in person -- something Goldberg has probably done. She reminds you of Susan Sontag.

Wandrin said...

I only started wondering about whether people were Jewish or not a few years ago after reading about cultural marxism. Before then it would never have crossed my mind to check. So the only reason you'd know is if you were the sort of person who'd check, and as you say, if you were the sort of person to check...

It's a bit like a monty python witch trial. If you drown you're not a witch.

[The Cloward-Piven strategy is / was a marxist strategy for collapsing capitalism by over-loading the welfare system.]

Anonymous said...

"Einstein, Marx, Freud, Franz Boas"

With the exception of Einstein, I'm not sure I'd want to brag about that list...

t said...

Michael J. Fox, Jackie Fox, Barack Obama, Joan Jett--fantastic. Better than Six Degrees of Kevin Bacon.

I bet you can't bring Jeremy Piven into this. That would be too much to ask.

Anonymous said...

Fox i believe is also "faulk" like falkland, anyway, for some reason - and its personally annoying for me- Jews tend to use scottish names frequently: Grant, Lewis, Stuart/Stewart, Wallace
I remember someone recommened a lawyer to me who had a name like "Ashley Worthington" i never met him in person but even on the phone it was VERY clear he was a high strung, neurotic askanazi Jew.

Anonymous said...

So if I write a list of people resonsible for repression of Palestinians on the west bank, and it turns out they are all Jewish, that's anti-semitic?

peter A said...

Beck's no provincial idiot. Why would Steve want to pretend that Beck is clueless about who's Jewish? Actually, Mormons tend to be very aware of other people's religious affiliations.

Anonymous said...

It's striking that on wikipedia, every person of Jewish descent has it listed on his/her page, usually involving the European nationality of the Jewish parent(s). Is this part of some wikipedia project to make sure everyone knows who the historical Jews are? Few others even seem to list ancestry at all. Perhaps this is limited to historical physicists, which are the ones I tend to look up most.

Reg C├Žsar said...

George Fox, the first Quaker, was thoroughly English. The first time I saw Mrs Piven's name, and policy recommendations, I kind of assumed she was a Friend as well.

Vicente Fox's Cincinnati ancestor was named Fuchs, but was a garden-variety German, of which Cincinnati was-- and is (cf. the Boehners)-- quite full.

They were teaching "The History of the 1960s" in 1976? Sounds like a Short March through the institutions!

Geoff Matthews said...

Is it too late to accuse Goldberg of blowing anti-semitic dog whistles? Crying racist (or anti-semite) isn't the best way to heal divisions.

Dutch Boy said...

Jews regularly change their names to disguise their religion/ethnicity so a name is not necessarily dispositive (e.g, my Jewish platoon leader in the army was surnamed "Baker.") We had a laugh with him when our certifiable Japanese-American captain was reassigned and we joked that we had escaped the yellow peril but fallen into the hands of the moneylender.

David said...

>This guy seems to be getting the anti-Semitism causality backwards<

It is a mark of antisemitism to criticise the ideas or deeds of any individual Jew of prominence. Report immediately to the Bernard Madoff Tolerance Center.

Formerly.JP98 said...

There's a quota system that must be observed when listing either heroes or villains. By the laws of PC, you are required to ensure that any list of heroes includes at least one woman and one black (preferably not the same person). Conversely, any list of villains must contain at least one white male Christian.

Swarthy Anglo said...

I can't imagine how Beck, who sounds like the epitome of the clueless goyishe kopf, is supposed to know these things

Beck epitomizes the maxim: "A little knowledge is a dangerous thing."

But let's judge him by his milieu -- he's at the very least smarter than O'Reilly.

Beck lacks the analytical intelligence to distinguish between plausible and stupid conspiracy theories -- he's dumb enough to think that anti-immigration Progressives and anti-Semitic populists of the 1920s and 1930s are in league across spacetime with the likes of
Chuck Schumer.

O'Reilly is even worse, so dumb he lacks the imagination to even entertain conspiracy theories. Like many stupid people, he reflexively rejects any and all unfamiliar ideas - not because he can evaluate its content, but because its weirdness surpasses his limited range. This incapacity immunizes him against the loonier of Leftist ideas, which is the sole reason he's labeled a conservative.

David said...

Steve, if Goldberg declares in print that Fox Piven is a Jew, then, trust me, it's a sure thing. Jews are very careful when publicly ID'ing another Jew in any sort of negative context. They generally don't do this at all unless they assume most of the audience knows already. Wikipedia is not the best source, because it's often merely a compilation of other, imperfect sources and because Jewish identity is sometimes permanently edited out there in sensitive cases, including most definitely at the request of the subject. For most people born before 1940, a good tip-off is "family was forced to flee Germany during the Nazi regime" or "forced to flee when Hitler came to power." Generally people from that era were understandably very skittish about identifying. A typical story concerns the great violinist Fritz Kreisler. To a group of his Jewish colleagues his wife swore up and down that "Fritz doesn't have one drop of Jewish blood!" To which one of them sardonically replied, "I had no idea Fritz is anemic."

Anonymous said...

Another Jewish member of the left wing commentariat saying,"If you oppose our agenda then you are a physical threat to us and everybody who looks like us. All right thinking people must oppose you by any means, up to and including violent persecution." Similarly, if you criticize Obama, then it necessarily follows that you are a racist, and should be identified, shamed, and forbidden from taking part in public discourse -- or perhaps even private employment.

Acilius said...

The only thing the nine people on Beck's list seem to have in common is that they have had some influence in some sector of American society and they have said things with which Beck disagrees strongly. There must be thousands of people who meet that description. Since Beck is not particularly focused on issues where his opinions are especially unpopular among Jews, one would assume that only a small minority of that huge pool of candidates would be Jewish. So, if Goldberg is right and eight of the nine people Beck chose to name are Jewish, then it would strain credulity to assume that it was a mere coincidence. It may be going too far to call the list "a classic case of anti-Semitic dog-whistling," but if Beck did indeed list eight Jews and only one Gentile, it would seem likely that being Jewish was some sort of qualification for inclusion.

Kylie said...

"The only thing the nine people on Beck's list seem to have in common is that they have had some influence in some sector of American society and they have said things with which Beck disagrees strongly."

Exactly. So why do you go on to say, "It may be going too far to call the list 'a classic case of anti-Semitic dog-whistling,' but if Beck did indeed list eight Jews and only one Gentile, it would seem likely that being Jewish was some sort of qualification for inclusion"?

If anything, all Beck's list shows is that he dislikes those on the left, a group in which Jews are disproportionately over-represented.

You'd seem both more logical and more honest if you simply picked an argument and stuck with it, rather than wanting to have it both ways.

Anonymous said...

There is a Jewish problem. Jews have a legitimate concern about being targeted and persecuted since there's a long history of that. There were periods of good times for Jews followed by periods of horror. In the early 20th century, Germany was considered one of the more enlightened nations where Jews could breathe freely. But then it turned into the worst place on Earth for Jews. Jews know that most Americans are not anti-semitic, but most Americans are also not Jewish. So, there is no guarantee that they'll like Jews forever. If their hearts and minds change, they could be anti-Jewish. Similarly, US and Japan had very cordial and even friendly relations through much of early 20th century. But during WWII, most Americans wanted to kill all those 'lemon-colored characters'.
Also, Russia under early Bolshevik rule was very good for Jews. By the 1950s, it was turning anti-Jewish. So, Jews know their history and have some legitimate fears.

But, we also have our legitimate concerns. It's natural for any people to be worried about and critical of people with great power and influence--for good or bad--, and it just so happens Jews are the most powerful and influential people in US, maybe the planet. So, it is frustrating that the most powerful people are protected and shielded from criticism by special-sensitive-consideration. Historically, that sensitivity is warranted; politically and economically, it is not.
It's kinda like blacks and sports. There was a time when it made sense to show special consideration to blacks since they'd been discriminated for so long. But in this day and age when blacks dominate so much in NFL and NBA, it's ridiculous to be pushing for and celebrating more 'diversity', which is a euphemism for MORE BLACKS in sports in the name of fighting 'racism'.

Also, Jews need to realize that their zealous hunt for antisemitism, real and imagined, may lead to real antisemitism. It's like a Jewish mother's overly possessive love may well lead to resentment, even hate, on the part of the son.

Luke Lea said...

The American Jewish community might consider befriending and championing the interests of America's white working classes -- correction, scratch the word "white" and make it just "America's working classes" -- since nobody else has.

That would secure a lot of good will in the coming decades. Think ahead!

Anonymous said...

It's perhaps telling that so many of these big, obnoxious jewish pundits don't allow commenting on their blogs- despite their claims to be so bright, their arguments are so paper thin they'd get torn to shreds in a true open debate - that is why they take such pains to repress oppositions to their ideas.

As Aubrey Waugh said "what sort of truth is it that requires protection"

Anonymous said...

I've only watched Beck's show once. I was sick and watched daytime TV. On that show he lectured about how the US was in a position similar to that of the Roman Republic just before it became an empire - meaning it adopted dictatorial government.

As it happens I've read essentially all the ancient historians who wrote of Rome except the really obscure ones. So I can say with some authority that Beck is full of beans. he very much doesn't know or understand Roman history.

I'm not a real scholar. I read Tacitus, Suetonius, Polybius, Livy, Salustus, Plutarch and Amianus in translation. I'll leave the heavy lifting in classical history to Victor Davis Hanson and others. But even a person completely innocent of all book learning should have at least seen some of the movies.

Beck claimed that the transition from a republic to a dictatorship had come about peaceably almost by stealth. If that were true what about the last act of Julius Caesar when James Mason and John Guilgud are defeated by Marlon Brando? Or when Elizabeth Taylor and Richard Burden lose at Actium to Roddy McDowell?

Before Octavian took over the Romans had fought in 200 of the previous 204 years. The Roman people were tired of war especially civil war. They embraced dictatorship and peace.

Beck got it exactly backwards.

The Founding Fathers were almost to a man, scholars of the Roman Republic. They read Cicero and Tacitus. They attended plays about Rome. They would have been appalled by Beck's nonsense.

Albertosaurus

Severn said...

Jews have a legitimate concern about being targeted and persecuted since there's a long history of that.

Oh, balls.

Severn said...

If one were to name 10 great noble people of the 20th century, 8 of 10 or even 10 of 10 could arguably be Jewish.

Not unless there's an awful lot of wriggle room in the word "arguably".

But 8 of 10 evil figures of the 20th century could also be Jewish.

Again, not really. Jews are not as big a deal as either they themselves, their admirers, or their detractors claim.

Anonymous said...

Rawley, Raleigh and Rolley are all the same name just different phonetic spelling Sir Walter Raliegh used to sign his name differently depending on whom he was addressing - and the accent of that region.

Kylie said...

"Or when Elizabeth Taylor and Richard Burden lose at Actium to Roddy McDowell?"

Even worse, what about when Elizabeth Taylor lost out in the looks department to Robert Taylor in Ivanhoe? The consensus was that of the two Taylors, Bob was the more beautiful. Liz played the Jewess, Rebecca, in that film (though she had yet to convert to Judaism)so I'm sure Goldberg would conclude that had something to do with her losing out to Hollywood's right-wing pretty boy.

Geoff Matthews said...

Can we acknowledge that, when it comes to Marx and Boas, neither identified as Jews (Marx's father was a Lutheran, Boas was raised by non-observant Jews, and would not identify as Jewish)?
Shouldn't that remove them from the Jewish column (and shouldn't they be glad about it)?

none of the above said...

As a quick check on the "neutral" background fraction of Jews you'd expect to be attacked by a conservative commenter, it might be worth looking at that list of the 50 most influential pundits, dividing them roughly into left/right, and then counting the Jews among those on the left. This isn't perfect, but it's a list made for an entirely different purpose, so there's some reason to think it's useful. Another alternative would be to look for some relatively widely-accepted list of great left-wing thinkers, and check the ethnic mix there.

All this is kind-of pointless, since this is one of those non-stories that will evaporate in a couple weeks when there's news to report. But it does seem like a kind-of interesting methodological problem.

FWIW: Suppose P is the probability that a single person on your list will be Jewish, based on whatever background distribution you're assuming. What you're interested in here is the Binomial distribution: Given a biased coin whose probability of coming up heads each time is P, what is the probability that 8/10 flips come up heads?

In Excel, this can be computed with =binomdist(). To get the probability that fewer than 8 heads would be seen, you do

=binomdist(7,P,10,True)

SFG said...

"The American Jewish community might consider befriending and championing the interests of America's white working classes -- correction, scratch the word "white" and make it just "America's working classes" -- since nobody else has."

Sounds fine to me, but the people who count wouldn't listen to me anyway.

Fred said...

"Jews regularly change their names to disguise their religion/ethnicity so a name is not necessarily dispositive (e.g, my Jewish platoon leader in the army was surnamed "Baker.")"

People (not just Jews) have historically changed their names to assimilate, but "Baker" may have been an Anglicization rather than just pulling a name out of a hat. It's not an unheard of surname among Arabs, for example.

"It's perhaps telling that so many of these big, obnoxious jewish pundits don't allow commenting on their blogs"

Goldberg = "many"? Of the Atlantic's 8 bloggers, 3 don't allow comments, and 2 of them are non-Jews (Fallows and Sullivan).

ben tillman said...

I wouldn't have guessed Edward Bernays was Jewish if Beck hadn't mentioned his relation to Freud.

He didn't mention his relation to Freud. He said Bernays was Freud's nephew, but that isn't quite right. He was Freud's DOUBLE nephew, a nephew both by blood and by marriage. His father was Ely Bernays, brother of Freud's wife Martha Bernays. His mother was Freud's sister, Anna.

GoogleWhiz said...

Well, Steve, you need to improve you google searching. In a total of about 3 seconds, I went to books.google.com and entered frances fox piven biography - near the top of the list was a book titled "American Jewish Biographies" by Murray Polner from 1982 in which she is listed... so there is a relatively authoritative source - likely the one Beck used to confirm she was Jewish.

Udolpho.com said...

"Can we acknowledge that, when it comes to Marx and Boas, neither identified as Jews (Marx's father was a Lutheran, Boas was raised by non-observant Jews, and would not identify as Jewish)?
Shouldn't that remove them from the Jewish column (and shouldn't they be glad about it)?"

If a black man chooses not to identify as black, does that make him not black? Does it mean that black culture had no impact on him? Jewishness is an ethnicity and a consequent culture, don't elide this just because the list of leftist, middle-class hating Jews is a mile long and it upsets people to think about it.

Udolpho.com said...

"There is a Jewish problem. Jews have a legitimate concern about being targeted and persecuted since there's a long history of that."

I'm assured by many Jews that Jews bear absolutely no responsibility for this, as one would naturally expect. They're just hated, either for no reason or because they're so great.

Simon in London said...

Albertosaurus:
"I've only watched Beck's show once. I was sick and watched daytime TV. On that show he lectured about how the US was in a position similar to that of the Roman Republic just before it became an empire - meaning it adopted dictatorial government.

As it happens I've read essentially all the ancient historians who wrote of Rome except the really obscure ones. So I can say with some authority that Beck is full of beans. he very much doesn't know or understand Roman history..."

I'd say that the USA has been in the Principate stage at least since FDR, America's Augustus. Constitutional norms are still nominally in place, but not actually followed. And the US still seems far from the Dominionate stage of more or less open tyranny (though retaining most of the Republican legal system). I agree that Obama is certainly not a transitional figure, and I wasn't too impressed by that Beck episode either.

dearieme said...

"But 8 of 10 evil figures of the 20th century could also be Jewish."

So 2 of the 10 aren't. Let's think: Mao, Lenin, Stalin, Hitler, Pol Pot ....

Do you mean to say that two of those guys were gentiles? Golly.

Anonymous said...

This was absolutely hilarious! You are a great writer Steve!

Anonymous said...

Speaking of Jews, there was a documentary that came out around 2005 that documented Israeli interference in U.S. politics and Middle East foreign policy. I've forgotten the name. If anyone saw it and can remember the name, please post it. Thanks.

Marlowe said...

The Chinaman is not the issue here dude.

Anonymous said...

I attended a university at which Boas was once a professor. He was sometimes talked about as the father of "cultural antrhopology" although his work was sort of quack physical anthropology. His biggest theory at least that I had heard of was that living in a place will cause phenotypes to converge (within a few generations), he claimed that the skull shapes of second and third generation European Americans were converging toward the shape of those of native Americans (meaning natural born Americans).

The natural extrapolation of this was that just living in America for a few generations would erase all group differences.

Glaivester said...

Jews regularly change their names to disguise their religion/ethnicity

As Fred said, they do it to assimilate; but I don't think they are trying to disguise their Jewishness as much as to make it seem less "other." That is, to make Jewishness fit in with the larger culture.

It's not as if Jon Stewart (born Jonathan Stuart Leibowitz) is trying to hide his ethnicity. It's also not as if Mel Brooks (Melvin Kaminsky) has ever been shy about who he is.

Anonymous said...

Fox Piven is Jewish. From Democratic Left magazine:

DL: How did you come to be a radical?

FP: Like a lot of people in the New York area, my parents were Russian Jewish immigrants. They were intuitive radicals even though they didn't have formal educations. I think they certainly influenced me. My father--when I saw him, which wasn't very often because he worked very long hours -- always talked to me about world affairs. I remember him saying to me that you couldn't believe the capitalist press. So I asked him, "Then why do you read the newspaper all the time, Daddy?" And he said, "I read between the lines." Since I couldn't read at all yet -- I was only about three or four -- I studied between the lines to see what I could see, and …


http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P3-467726441.html

Svigor said...

Can we acknowledge that, when it comes to Marx and Boas, neither identified as Jews (Marx's father was a Lutheran, Boas was raised by non-observant Jews, and would not identify as Jewish)?
Shouldn't that remove them from the Jewish column (and shouldn't they be glad about it)?


Sure. And Stalin and Hitler weren't white.

Anonymous said...

Yeah, you can't change your genetics by changing your self-identification.

Marx was Jewish. Sorry if science upsets you.

Severn said...

Can we acknowledge that, when it comes to Marx and Boas, neither identified as Jews (Marx's father was a Lutheran, Boas was raised by non-observant Jews, and would not identify as Jewish)?

Acknowledged.

Shouldn't that remove them from the Jewish column

No. What matters is whether other Jews identify them as Jewish, and they do in fact so identify them.

Albert Einstein was born to non-observant Jews and attended a Catholic elementary school as a young child. But I doubt that many Jews will give him up as one of their own on that account.

ben tillman said...

Can we acknowledge that, when it comes to Marx and Boas, neither identified as Jews [sic]...?"

No. They were ancestrally, genetically, culturally, and above all intellectually Jewish. They spent most of their lives concocting ideologies to further the interests of the Jewish community.

Anonymous said...

Amusing fact about the German or Jewish surname 'Fuchs'.
Many years ago there was a famous explorer named Claus Fuchs.The English newspapers provoked no end of mirth with the headline " Sir Claus Fuchs at North Pole".

Has to be said...

Can we acknowledge that, when it comes to Marx and Boas, neither identified as Jews [sic]...?"

No. They were ancestrally, genetically, culturally, and above all intellectually Jewish. They spent most of their lives concocting ideologies to further the interests of the Jewish community.


That's pretty funny, considering that Marx hated Jews.

ben tillman said...

That's pretty funny, considering that Marx hated Jews.

That's an old canard, based on a misinterpretation of Marx's essay On the Jewish Question. Marx did not hate Jews.

Svigor said...

based on a misinterpretation of Marx's essay

And the moving goalpost of "anti-Semitism."