August 11, 2011

Who burned all those cars outside Paris in 2005?

Remember all those car-burnings in Paris suburbs that peaked in 2005? Did we ever get a straight story on whether the rioters were mostly North Africans or sub-Saharan Africans? The American press assumed the former, and that therefore the car-be-ques were a Muslim thing, but there were hints that this was more like a U.S. riot.

Did anybody ever answer that question, or is this one of the many topics best not brought up?

46 comments:

Anonymous said...

Very interesting question. I have just been making myself persona non grata on my local neo-con sites by pointing out how well the British Muslims have come out of the riots thus far.
Gilbert P.

RKU said...

Well, based on everything I've heard since then from individuals with some direct connection to Paris or France, the "Muslim riots" of Paris shared very strong commonalities with the 1992 "Baptist Riots" of Los Angeles and today's "Episcopalian Riots" in London. But since that's exactly what I suspected at the time, my impression might be biased.

Anyway, the notion that the MSM could have been providing such a uniformly dishonest anti-racist/anti-Muslim spin in their reporting is just too horrifying to contemplate. If we can't trust the electronic senses of our society, what can we trust?

iselilja said...

The riots were triggered by the deaths of two young boys, Zyed Benna and Bouna Traoré, who were allegedly chased by the police. Benna appears to have been of North African origin, Traoré of Sub-Saharian origin. A third boy involved, Muhittin Altun, also has a North African look.

I believe this black/beur mix was pretty typical and that blacks and North Africans were practically arm in arm during these riots. Many blacks in France are also Muslims (from Senegal, Mali etc.).

There were new riots in 2007, also triggered by the deaths of two young boys chased by the police, and looking at a photo of the family members, it seems like is also then may have been one black and one arab:

http://tgr.ph/8G8iaj

Anonymous said...

Steve, Dat's Weycist!

Podsnap said...

Aren't a lot of the sub-Saharan Africans in France muzzies as well ?

Wiki says there are no exact records on religious demographics in France (because 'Shhh it's a secret') so I'm just guessing.

Anonymous said...

dear steve, the french rioters were black carribean, black muslim african, black christian african and especially north african from algeria mostly. They used to target public buildings, libraries, schools there 's a strong anti-french feeling among them so it 's not particurlary like the U.S riot for the french right-wing commentators it's look like a remake of the algerian war with a lower intensity

Hubbard said...

I think
Theodore Dalrymple
explained what was going on in France several years ago. But he was right too early. Mr. Sailer, perhaps you and the good doctor should start a right-too-soon club.

Kylie said...

I wasn't surprised at all by the car burnings in Paris in 2005. I had read Theodore Dalrymple's article about Paris years years earlier.

It's lengthy but worthwhile:

The Barbarians at the Gates of Paris

Vilko said...

I am French and I live in a drab, crime-ridden suburb east of Paris, where the mayhem started. The majority of the rioters of 2005 were black, no doubt about that. Twenty-five years ago in my neighborhood, most delinquents were Arabs. Now, they are black. As if the bigger, lower IQ, higher testosterone blacks had pushed the Arabs away.
Besides, young Arabs were even then under islamic influence. Islamic clerics disapproved of the riots and told muslims not to join.
Successful drug dealers (who often are Arabs) were also against the riots, which wreaked havoc in the business.
Even where I live, it was much less impressive than the UK riots. I saw burnt cars in the morning and bus service was suspended, a helicopter hovered noisily in the sky at night, but that was about all the nuisance. I left at 8 a.m. in the morning to go to work and I went back home around 7 p.m., and I always felt safe. I am a middle-aged white man.
I'm not a fan of Sarkozy anymore, but I have to admit that, as the Minister of the Interior, he handled the riots rather efficiently. Certainly better than the British did this month.

Anonymous said...

ITT: Islam never penetrated darkest Africa.

Anonymous said...

Whenever news is buried, it's always buried only because it's "good for the jews." So probably blacks, not muslims.

Anonymous said...

And even the North Africans involved were into American rap culture-loving thug-gangsta thang.
They weren't acting AS muslims.

catperson said...

The American press assumed the former, and that therefore the car-be-ques were a Muslim thing

That's because the American media (both liberal and conservative) is Islamophobic; probably because they're in the tank for Israel.

Anonymous said...

It is against the law to publish crime data that would reveal the perps race or ethnicity. On the rare occassions that the pictures of the criminals are published, it is highly likely that the Mohammeds and Ahmeds are not Arabs. The Ahmeds and Mohammeds who kidnapped and tortured to death a young Jew in Paris were not Arabs. More than 60% of newborns in Paris carry the sickle cell anemia gene.

Robert in Arabia

Anonymous said...

The bottom line is that the car burners were all third-world savages. It doesn't matter which lively, vibrant, diverse flavor they were. Third-world savages in White countries is ALWAYS a very bad thing indeed.

anony-mouse said...

or?

RKU said...

Well, based on everything I've heard since then from individuals with some direct connection to Paris or France, the "Muslim riots" of Paris shared very strong commonalities with the 1992 "Baptist Riots" of Los Angeles and today's "Episcopalian Riots" in London. But since that's exactly what I suspected at the time, my impression might be biased.

Anyway, the notion that the MSM could have been providing such a uniformly dishonest anti-racist/anti-Muslim spin in their reporting is just too horrifying to contemplate. If we can't trust the electronic senses of our society, what can we trust?

Anonymous said...

Similarly, when Jews do wrong, they just count as 'white people'.
So, if Wall Street rips us off, we are to assume that Appalachian hillbillies are just as responsible as NY Jewish billionaires.

Anonymous said...

I hear 'unruly teens' used a lot. Maybe young black thugs should just be called 'unrulies'.

Anonymous said...

A lot of neoconservatives want to act like these are Muslim riots, but more realistically they were just banlieu underclass riots. Blacks and Arabs were overrepresented not because they'e Muslim, but because they're more likely to be in the banlieu underclass to begin with. Contrary to what many here might think, Islamic fundamentalism is a much weaker force among French Muslims than among Muslims in other EU nations. A lot of French Muslims have absorbed secular values, with many even allowing their children to date and intermarry.

The biggest issue with French Muslims is that they come from ethnic groups with lower IQs and higher levels of impulsiveness. This makes them more susceptible to this type of behavior. Being distinct, from the majority population, in both race and religion adds to their estrangement, but this is more about class than anything.

A substanial percentage of the rioters were poor whites that lived in the banlieus. They weren't motivated by Islam or racism, but they joined with the Arabs and blacks to burn cars anyway. Race and religion were just side issues for these rioters. The French riots were inspired mainly by the hip hop thug culture, which has spread among the disaffected of all races in the suburban banlieus.

For all three races to get along well during the riots suggests that French race relations are probably pretty good too, better than here in the US. Maybe this is a reflection of the French educational system and culture, which is highly assimilationist. Unfortunately for the French, no matter how much you assimilate, you can't change the reality of genetics.

As for the ethnic makeup of the French rioters, it does seem that a pretty large percentage were black and they drove the rioting. There were pretty good numbers of Arabs and whites too. The commonality was their low level of human capital.

The French Africans seem to be a lot less influenced by Islam than French Arabs. Plenty come from Christian or mixed backgrounds. People like Whiskey will claim that "Street Imams" and "jihadists" are to blame, but was just exaggeration.

Calling the French riots "Muslim" is like saying that Baptists and Catholics looted LA.

Carol said...

Vilko, aren't there places where police don't go, or did that practice end?

Anonymous said...

Difficult to get a clear racial breakdown of the London riots? The arrest stats might a good proxy. Don't suppose anyone knows how to get hold of this data.

Truth said...

"Well, based on everything I've heard since then from individuals with some direct connection to Paris or France, the "Muslim riots" of Paris shared very strong commonalities with the 1992 "Baptist Riots" of Los Angeles and today's "Episcopalian Riots" in London..."

And the Presbyterian riots in Vancouver...And the Orthodox riots in Athens...?

Truth said...

"Don't suppose anyone knows how to get hold of this data."

I do, go to England...and please, by a one way ticket.

Anonymous said...

@Truth

So you chose your name out of irony?

You: We don't need any your hate facts here friendo!

Anonymous said...

Shopkeeper describes his store being ransacked by 100 black dudes, journalist says whoa slow down friend, not so fast.

http://www.dumpert.nl/mediabase/1646761/4c994d0d/bizar_interview_met_gedupeerde_winkeleigenaar_in_londen.html

kurt9 said...

More than 60% of newborns in Paris carry the sickle cell anemia gene.

Where did you get this statistic?

I always wondered if the 2005 and 2007 riots were really a Muslim thing. I asked people living in France through a discussion board if it was a Muslim thing and I never got a definitive answer. The only answer I got was that this was a "third-world underclass" thing.

Muslims have many flaws, but violent criminal behavior is not one of them.

kurt9 said...

A lot of French Muslims have absorbed secular values, with many even allowing their children to date and intermarry.

There was a big gang fight between Muslim GIRLS fighting over boyfriends in Paris several years ago. This tipped me off that these people were not normal "run of the mill" Muslim fundamentalist types.

Anonymous said...

Japanese, great builders of cars.

Blacks, great burners of cars.

Anonymous said...

This kind of thing is important, because the Muslim Middle Easterners are demographically slowing down, and are frankly pretty small populations anyway, while the SSA are demographically huge and gearing up - there is much more future potential for SSA migration to Europe, and the US (with its already substantial black minority, who might make political hay while the sun shines, should the US take on a policy of aversion to African migration) than from Muslim Mid Easterners.

A lot of the fuss with Muslim Middle Easterners is due to their cultural norms being a) religious and b) oppressive towards women in particular and c) clannish, all of which are repellent to modern Westerners. While SSA cultural norms tend to a) have the halo of "don't criticise blacks because of the modern legends of the slave trade and civil rights struggle) b) be relatively normalised through their close relations, the Afram cultural norms and c) are in their lack of strong clans and female sexual autonomy, more normalised in some ways to modern Westerners, particular seculars and Liberals. It's not so much due to violent behavior or economic performance, which may in many respects be worse than the European average, but is less the case than with the SS Africans.

(also from an IQ point of view Muslim Middle Easterners actually have problems mainly with crystallised IQ, which is more culturally acquired - their fluid IQ, which is more heritable, seems to have less difference with Europeans. although neither of these factors is great).

R/A said...

The biggest issue with French Muslims is that they come from ethnic groups with lower IQs and higher levels of impulsiveness.

What evidence is there that Arabs or North Africans are more impulsive than other Caucasians?

R/A said...

(also from an IQ point of view Muslim Middle Easterners actually have problems mainly with crystallised IQ, which is more culturally acquired - their fluid IQ, which is more heritable, seems to have less difference with Europeans. although neither of these factors is great).


I know one of the reasons that the culture hypothesis for the black/white IQ gap was debunked was because blacks do relatively better on the cultural questions. Do you have a link to what you say about Middle Easterners?

Anonymous said...

FranceIn Europe, the highest prevalence of the disease has been observed in France. As a result of population growth in African-Caribbean regions of overseas France, and now immigration essentially from North and sub-Saharan Africa to mainland France, sickle cell disease has become a major health problem in France.[31] SCD has become the most common genetic disease in this country, with an overall birth prevalence of 1/2,415 in mainland France, ahead of phenylketonuria (1/10,862), congenital hypothyroidism (1/3,132), congenital adrenal hyperplasia (1/19,008) and cystic fibrosis (1/5,014) for the same reference period. In 2007, 28.45% of all newborns in mainland France had at least one parent originated from a region defined "at risk" (mainly Africa and Overseas departments and territories of France) and were screened for SCD. The Paris metropolitan district (Île-de-France) is the region that accounts for the largest number of people at presumably higher risk of SCD. Indeed, nearly 56% of all newborns in this area in 2007 had at least one parent originated from a region defined as "at-risk" and were screened for SCD. The second largest number of at-risk is in Provence-Alpes-Côte d'Azur at nearly 42% and the lowest number is in Brittany at 4.40%.[32]

Robert in Arabia

Douglas Knight said...

Steve,

this sounds like the kind of thing where you, personally, look at photos and tell us.

Svigor said...

@Truth

So you chose your name out of irony?


Ironically, no.

Adeline said...

--Muslims have many flaws, but violent criminal behavior is not one of them.

As long as you don't count honor killings, rape, sexual assault, and suicide bombings as criminal behavior.

Anonymous said...

"Do you have a link to what you say about Middle Easterners?"

I think the papers I am thinking of are:

http://www.ifau.se/Upload/pdf/se/2007/wp07-23.pdf - "The relation between fluid intelligence and the general factor as a function of cultural background: a test of Cattell’s investment theory by Ann Valentin Kvist & Jan-Eric Gustafsson"

and

"Interpretation of Cognitive Test. Scores in Relation to Swedish and. Immigrant Groups. ANN VALENTIN KVIST"

Possibly they are debunked elsewhere. I have not really looked into it - I really just glanced over the papers when browsing around (for data regarding a visuo-spatial component to Raven's, which isn't actually confirmed in these papers, is mentioned elsewhere, but they came up during browsing).

Vilko said...

Carol asked:
Vilko, aren't there places where police don't go, or did that practice end?

There are. It's getting worse, bit by bit, because of demographic evolution (a little more blacks and Third-Worlders each year). There are neighborhoods where the police simply don't go in the daytime. If they have to go, to make an arrest for instance, they always do it before 6 a.m. - and they prepare it as a raid in enemy territory (which, actually, it is).

The situation has been made worse by Sarkozy's budget cuts: he reduced the number of police officers by 10,000, and it shows.

Anonymous wrote:
More than 60% of newborns in Paris carry the sickle cell anemia gene.
kurt9 wrote:
Where did you get this statistic?

It's 54% in the Paris region, a quarter of all newborns nation-wide. The stat was imprudently released by medical authorities in a pdf document, with maps, on the website of an association of parents of children with sickle cell anemia ("drépanocytose" in French). Since then, the document has disppeared from the website of the association, but many people (including myself) copied it.

Make a tour of Paris and neighboring areas in public transit, or look at the children you see on the street, anytime: the statistic is correct.

Until several years ago, the "official truth" was, since ethnic statistics do not exist in France: "There are few immigrants in France. Only racists think otherwise." Now, the "official truth" is: "There are many visible minorities in France. They deserve a fair percentage of the good jobs, a fair representation in political instances, etc."

We are very Orwellian in France. Beware of the official truth, especially when it changes almost overnight.

kurt9 wrote:
Muslims have many flaws, but violent criminal behavior is not one of them.
Where are you living, sir? Not in Europe, certainly.

R/A wrote:
What evidence is there that Arabs or North Africans are more impulsive than other Caucasians?
Their behavior, which is obvious to anyone who lives in an area where many North African Arabs live. They shout at each other in their homes, they fight if someone dents their car, etc.

R/A said...

Their behavior, which is obvious to anyone who lives in an area where many North African Arabs live. They shout at each other in their homes, they fight if someone dents their car, etc.

Jews also shout at each other. That doesn't make them "impulsive." They shout at home because they know between relatives it won't escalate into anything serious.

As for fighting for denting cars, I'd need to see statistics on that. Seems to me most Middle Eastern violence is based on political/tribal/religious reasons, which doesn't indicate high impulsivity but probably the opposite.

corvinus said...

What evidence is there that Arabs or North Africans are more impulsive than other Caucasians?
Their behavior, which is obvious to anyone who lives in an area where many North African Arabs live. They shout at each other in their homes, they fight if someone dents their car, etc.


Agreed. Think of how a 3/4 Italian 1/4 black mix would act.

Anonymous said...

Vilko, interesting. Why don't you write more about the West African blacks and North African Arabs in France. Maybe you could elaborate on any differences that exist between both of these groups too. I'd be interested in hearing a Frenchman's perspective, as we don't seem to have too many French posters here.

Anonymous said...

French Muslims are more hip hop hoodlums than jihadists.

Anonymous said...

Ten years in Arabia, I have never heard or seen two arabs fight. I onve saw two Saudis at a fender bender shout at each other for 90 seconds.
A Saudi friend who had been robbed in Paris bgy Algerians asked the French police why they let garbage in their country. They had no answer.

Robert in Arabia

Anonymous said...

I've heard that when two gulf Arabs are involved in a collision, they say "maafi maafi" (forgive, forgive) and drive off.

kurt9 said...

The stat was imprudently released by medical authorities in a pdf document, with maps, on the website of an association of parents of children with sickle cell anemia ("drépanocytose" in French)....

Imprudently released? This is hilarious to read!

Anonymous said...

You can also destroy a society by building stuff.

Who built all those homes in Las Vegas and California?