May 14, 2012

The War Among Women

"It can't only be me that kind of initially saw Ann Romney as maybe a sympathetic or neutral figure but who is increasingly seeing her as someone who is kind of insufferable because of the way she's milking this thing," Newsweek and Daily Beast columnist Michelle Goldberg said about Ann Romney writing a column about raising her children. 
Goldberg found Ann Romney's glowing praise of motherhood in a column she wrote for USA Today to be "kind of creepy." During an appearance on MSNBC's weekend program "Up with Chris Hayes," Goldberg said the phrase "the crown of motherhood," which Ann Romney used in her column, reminded her of "authoritarian societies" that give out awards for large families.  
"In a lot ways, the column was totally anodyne, right? She's, you know, yes, motherhood is beautiful. I found that phrase, 'the crown of motherhood' really kind of creepy. Not just because of it's somewhat -- you know, it's kind of really authoritarian societies that give out like a Cross of Motherhood. They give out awards for big families," Goldberg said on the program's panel. 
"You know, Stalin did it, Hitler did it," she said. 

The Obama Administration and its adjuncts in the press are promoting the meme of a supposed GOP "war on women." 

But, as has often been said, in the war between the sexes, there will never be a final victory because there is too much fraternizing with the enemy. 

Instead, just as real wars are largely fought between men, what we see here is mostly status striving among women. Ann Romney's life course (fell in love in high school with a handsome, smart boy from a good family who turned out to a good husband and a real catch, over 40 years of marriage so far, a career of homemaking, five children, 18 grandchildren) drives a lot of women crazy with resentment. 

Women aren't all that good at tolerance toward other women, due to their relatively higher levels of conformism. A typical woman tends to want to do what other women want to do, and want other women to do what she wants to do.

135 comments:

Anonymous said...

Shrill Jewess "creeped out" by blonde woman! News at 11!

[enter username here] said...

Yup, the bob-cut opinionator against the telegenic Mormon matriarch could be like a new "Spy vs. Spy" cartoon

Isabel said...

"drives a lot of women crazy with resentment. "

Do you have any evidence for this? For example, the woman you quoted doesn't sound resentful at all. Where is the evidence, besides extrapolation and male fantasies? Who exactly are these resentful women? You don't seem to be following what actual intelligent women are saying about this situation at all.

I guess you will now censor or ban me, like Razib just did. No wonder there are few or no intelligent women hanging out at this blog. Anyone who agrees with you is busy homeschooling I guess.

Anonymous said...

Goldberg's writing drips with envy, jealousy and hate.
Why does she hate so much? Why can’t be happy that another woman has followed her own path and has found happiness & fulfillment?
Really, Goldberg is quite sick.

Anonymous said...

Is this the same Michelle Goldberg who wrote the bitchy salon article about why she hated Gwyneth Paltrow for being "too perfect"? I thought adults understood that no one is perfect and everyone has problems. If so she's been doing this for years and I can't believe anyone takes her seriously.

http://www.salon.com/1999/04/02/featureb_20

Anonymous said...

Sexyst!

Anonymous said...

Instead, just as real wars are largely fought between men, what we see here is mostly status striving among women. Ann Romney's life course (fell in love in high school with a handsome, smart boy from a good family who turned out to a good husband and a real catch, over 40 years of marriage so far, a career of homemaking, five children, 18 grandchildren) drives a lot of women crazy with resentment.

For a man who believes in statistics, this is an odd statement to make. No one cared about Ann Romney until she decided to speak up on women's economics issues, even though she has almost no qualification to do so. She compounded the problem by insisting that she doesn't consider herself wealthy, and that college life for her and Mitt was tough because they were only backstopped by his father's investment.

Most reasonable people would find her to be a nice person maybe, but incredibly patronizing and totally unable to identify with the common woman. We have often discussed the Lake Wobogogan effect, and I would have assumed you would comment on the fact that, no matter how supposedly honorable her work is, its impossible for everyone to do it.

knuckledragging fantasist said...

Did ya hear that, Razib? She ain't gonna be censored

Charlotte said...

I'm not resentful of Ann Romney. I'm glad she has what she has. In fact, I have never envied another woman her achievements and happiness (or whatever) in the realm of marriage and kids. When I hear of a smart, stable, attractive woman (esp, I admit, if she's my ethnicity) who has taken the time to breed, I am overjoyed. As one guy told me, "we've been a few generations of lotus eaters now." \

It's a drag staying married to the same person for a long time. It's a big responsibility to have kids. Unless you are one of those lucky charms who found their sock mate, you really have to have a cause/reason bigger than yourselves to marry & familyate.
Religion used to do that. Russia tried to make Communism do it, but they ended up having to give the breeders bonues. Whatever works.

Anonymous said...

I'm the one who posted the Gwyneth Paltrow piece. I really doubt that Michelle Goldberg envies Anne Romney. I think she just doesn't identify with her at all and does indeed find her weird and unsettling. Jewish feminists often view traditionally religious stay-at-home shiska moms to be like different species from career-driven urbanites like themselves. That Goldberg seems to personalize everything doesn't help her cause.

Anonymous said...

We should all be so lucky to have these two's problems

anony-mouse said...

I'm glad to know there's so many men here who understand women completely.

It makes me feel unique to know that I'm a guy who doesn't.

Anonymous said...

Women aren't all that good at tolerance toward other women"

Steve, you've understated things.

Women who aren't happy absolutely hate women who are. A great guy for a hubby, handsome, well-adjusted sons, a bunch of loving grandkids....all things lots of women who don't have any of those things resent.

And this POTUS can only be re-elected by pushing resentment of all kinds, but he stands a good chance of succeeding because any POTUS candidate starting out not having to spend money in CA and NY has a huge advantage.

KIm said...

"Isabel said...
'drives a lot of women crazy with resentment.' Do you have any evidence for this?"

- You mean, aside from the comparison to Stalin and Hitler?

"For example, the woman you quoted doesn't sound resentful at all."

- Ibid.

"Where is the evidence, besides extrapolation and male fantasies?"

- Ibid.

"You don't seem to be following what actual intelligent women are saying about this situation at all."

- For once we are in agreement, but she is one of the chattering classes speaking what the left wants to hear so this is the only one the MSM quoted.

"No wonder there are few or no intelligent women hanging out at this blog. Anyone who agrees with you is busy homeschooling I guess."

- Wow! For someone so sensitive to negative stereotypes of women you sure seem to have no trouble dishing them out towards women who have a different opinion from you... kind of the very thing you were trying to complain about.

Anonymous said...

Come on, Isabel, surely you've worked with enough women, listened to enough gossip to know that Steve is correct about us. No, I am *not* joking. He is right. Many women resent those who, in their eyes, "had all the luck."
And, yes, that IS the expression they use.

These kind will start by being resentful of Ann Romney's looks. For a woman her age, she's quite attractive, suggesting she was very attractive when she was younger, and they see Romney himself as handsome.

As for Michelle Obama, these women think she does a good job "taking care of herself" which is code for "not that naturally attractive, but she does what she can to fix herself up." This kind of woman is not the kind they are jealous of because like her, they have to work at it, in their minds, to be attractive.

It's part of our evolutionary make up. There's a lot of mate selection envy.

a woman said...

"I really doubt that Michelle Goldberg envies Anne Romney. I think she just doesn't identify with her at all and does indeed find her weird and unsettling. Jewish feminists often view traditionally religious stay-at-home shiska moms to be like different species from career-driven urbanites like themselves."

The accuracy of your analysis depends on the writer's age, I'd say. If she's under 30 with a boyfriend she really cares about and plans to marry, maybe you're right. Much older than that, w/out having landed a guy she wants to marry and have kids with, it's likely envy.

a woman said...

"No one cared about Ann Romney until she decided to speak up on women's economics issues, even though she has almost no qualification to do so."

What in the heck do you consider to be "qualifications to do so"?

a woman said...

Isabel,

I say "ditto" to what Kim said.

You seriously don't think a mention of Stalin and Hitler in the same breath as Ann Romney isn't evidence of animus?

Get real.

Anonymous said...

to "a woman":
"The accuracy of your analysis depends on the writer's age, I'd say. If she's under 30 with a boyfriend she really cares about and plans to marry, maybe you're right. Much older than that, w/out having landed a guy she wants to marry and have kids with, it's likely envy."

That sounds right. I've known women like that over the years, and they are firm in the conviction that they deserve a husband at the level of Romney (or more accurately Bill Clinton because they'd never go for a Republican) even if they bring nothing to the table except their overpriced degrees and whining, self-pitying demands.

David Davenport said...

I'm looking at Karl Rove on Fox TV right now, and Mr. Rove says Romney is currently up by two points nationwide among women.

Mitt versus the O. is 46% - 43%.

Sean Hannity describes Michelle Goldberg's word re Ann Romney as "just another [Democrat] smear job."

Anonymous said...

Women are herd creatures who tend to self-destruct without men to lead them.

Anonymous said...

I guess you will now censor or ban me, like Razib just did.

Razib is a graduate of the Greg Cochran School of Charm.

Isabel said...

"Anonymous knuckledragging fantasist said...

Did ya hear that, Razib? She ain't gonna be censored"

More weird fantasizing. Who knows what this comment even means?

I guess you are trying to portray me as some wacky aggressive feminist stereotype?

Razib is an asshole if he can't handle my comments. I won't be reading his blog anymore let alone commenting. He seemed to like my previous comments. Apparently I hit a nerve and his fragile ego just couldn't handle it.

But hey, keep fantasizing if it makes you feel like more of a "real" man, knuckles. No harm done I guess.

Anonymous said...

Surely there are rich Democratic full time moms. Are they losers too?

a woman said...

BTW, Isabel,

Wonder of wonders: I just wandered into the living room where, of all things, hubby was watching "Hannity" who was running the clip of Ms. Goldberg.

Oooohhh... Mahhhh... Godttttttt (in my best Valley Girl imitation).

Ms. Goldberg is nothing more than an airhead. She sounded exactly like Al Bundy's daughter.

No Jewish parents would feel proud about claiming her as theirs, I can tell you.

DYork said...

Michelle Goldberg, another Scots-Irish lass burning with rage at the well off Shiksa. Goldberg was previously outraged by another fecund Shiksa, that Palin woman.

There's a pattern here.

Instead, just as real wars are largely fought between men, what we see here is mostly status striving among women. Ann Romney's life course (fell in love in high school with a handsome, smart boy from a good family who turned out to a good husband and a real catch, over 40 years of marriage so far, a career of homemaking, five children, 18 grandchildren) drives a lot of women crazy with resentment.

Especially Jewish lesbian Democrats with black kids.

Hilary Rosen with her former partner Elizabeth Birch and kids Jacob and Anna.

Anonymous said...

Goldberg found Ann Romney's glowing praise of motherhood in a column she wrote for USA Today to be "kind of creepy."

Funny how those scots-irish names always pop up in stories like these...

a woman said...

"Razib is a graduate of the Greg Cochran School of Charm."

Smiling big.

a woman said...

Forgot to put up my name for the post that begins,

"Steve, you've understated things."

"knuckles" said...

Isabel: I'd respond in kind to your response (and weird obsession with some other blogger I don't read) but there were like 3 comments up totally demolishing you. I think it's important and would fully support you combating the Internet patriarchy hydra. Even if Michelle Goldberg has a fantastic life beyond her wildest expectations (I dunno; never heard of her before today) I think it's awfully clear which of the two is commonly perceived to have "won." Sisters need to unite against this kind of thing!

DYork said...

I remember back in 2008 saying this photo would outrage Democrats to the very center of their identity.

If you don't understand why Democrats point, sputter, twitch and burn over that photo you don't understand American politics and pop culture.

Steve Sailer said...

DYork,

Thanks.

[enter username here] said...

DYork (authority on the Ulstermen)--before you start brandishing shiksas, try reading up a bit on the argot of Mormons.

Anonymous said...

To David Davenport, who was watching Hannity,

How'd you like the clip Hannity ran of the gay CNN anchor, Don Lemon, trying to compare Romney (marriage is one man, one woman) to Lester Maddox (or some such Southern segregationist) by saying that in a few years all will look back at Romney and see him the way we see the Maddox sorts?

Rove and Hannity realize the idiocy and one of them says, "So that means that up until Friday, President Obama was a Lester Maddox?" Yep, he must have been. Obama was a Lester Maddox and George Wallace for most of his life then. (chuckle)

Anonymous said...

Ok, I know we're all joking about the scot-irish angle here. but really, honestly.. do they not realize it? Do they - who are so sensitive about their impression, what people think of them, - constantly polling and trolling public opinion for signs of hostility... do they really not realize what they are doing? I find it hard to believe..

Lucius said...

Michelle Goldberg is cute as a button (a bloggingheads commenter once noted that finishing school head-tilt she does for the camera over there) but is, indeed, an absolute airhead.

Maybe she has a slight mental edge over Amanda M., plus her looks as noted, but that's it.

It's sad almost, but troubling too: for Michelle is incredibly easy to rattle. Ann Althouse once memorably had her in tears in about, maybe under 5 mins. even, during a blogggingheads discussion.

"I don't want to have this discussion," she sobbed, like some Pollyanna crumbling under the verbal blows of an irate lover.

Campus feminism has produced, and promoted, some terribly fragile, even disturbed, young minds. Obama's reelection is capitalizing on this in full.

Isabel said...

"Come on, Isabel, surely you've worked with enough women, listened to enough gossip to know that Steve is correct about us."

No, this is not true. Men are real assholes to each other also, and frequently to women, and quite capable of resentment. Why is it a "real war" when it's between men, and "about status" when it's between women?

I only hang out with cool women. We don't waste time on petty gossip, or putting other women down. Same for the women I grew up with, and my sisters, their daughters, and my female students, etc. Sorry to disappoint you.

Why do you have so little self respect that you would jump to the defense of someone who would write this post? Some of the biggest, most underhanded, petty assholes I have known have been men. Maybe most.

"The accuracy of your analysis depends on the writer's age, I'd say. "

Another expert, lol. This blog is hilarious. Except that it's hard to converse with 20 people all named anonymous. What's the deal with that?

"He is right."

It's so adorable how you look up to men. I bet they love you, and that makes you feel warm inside, and smugly superior to those vengeful feminists.

a woman said...

D York,

You are sooo right. Heck, even I am jealous of all those great looking grandkids!

You'd think Dems would be grateful for all those progeny who will feed the tax coffers. You'd think they'd be grateful for knowing no one in that brood will break into their houses and steal, make their neighborhoods deteriorate, wind up in prison, etc. But nooooooooo, they find fault.

a woman said...

Lucius,

Really? You think her cute? I don't think my sons would, but what do I know?

Anonymous said...

Michelle Goldberg is cute as a button
ummm no.

Anonymous said...

How long before the inevitable E.J. Dionne/Michael Tomasky column--"ROMNEY'S BIGGEST LIABILITY: wife Ann, with her $900 shirts and too many descendants"

Isabel said...

"Isabel: I'd respond in kind to your response (and weird obsession"

Where do you get obsession?? Another fantasy about scary feminists maybe?

"with some other blogger I don't read) but there were like 3 comments up totally demolishing you. "

LOL. I must have missed that!

"I think it's awfully clear which of the two is commonly perceived to have "won." "

Ah, I see. You think women care about your perceptions.

Well, we don't. At least the cool, confidant women don't.

I think this explains a lot of the sexist "attitude" on this blog. Feminists are so upsetting to you guys because they don't care about your opinions. And that's awfully "un-feminine" of us.

Anonymous said...

I feel like Romney's going to be another Nixon in this sense. Nixon wasn't a conservative (and neither IMO is Romney). BUT liberals HATED Nixon so much. I mean they viciously attacked Nixon because they hated him on a gut level.

I think they have the same kind of visceral hate for Mitt. I mean look at the photo. And he's so... White and has all those kids... and they're not athiests!

Anonymous said...

Google image Michelke Goldberg.....cute in some not at all in others. Like that shape shifting girl in Seinfeld.

Dan in DC

Anonymous said...

"I feel like Romney's going to be another Nixon in this sense. Nixon wasn't a conservative (and neither IMO is Romney). BUT liberals HATED Nixon so much. I mean they viciously attacked Nixon because they hated him on a gut level."

Conservatives hated Clinton on a deep gut level despite his relatively centrist positions because they had no one anywhere near as charismatic as Clinton. I wasn't a Clinton supporter but it is now commonplace for people all over the political spectrum to sincerely hate their political opponents.

Assistant Village Idiot said...

Isabel keeps digging, anosognosic about the content of her writing because the feelings are drowning it out. She's so clueless she might be a sock puppet (though I doubt it.)

To the OP. It is an unfair generalisation, of course. There are plenty of women who genuinely enjoy other women who have made other choices, and respect them. But it isn't common. It is not common in human beings in general; yet I believe it is even less common in women.

I submit the following as evidence: I have read many criticisms of men by other men. They are wide, varied. Some are just, some not. I don't recall ever reading a man criticising a man for his wife-and-family decisions as "creepy," or problematic in the abstract. The closest I can think of is men criticising homosexual men for their type of mate and family structure. (And vice versa.)

Relatedly, I can't think of popular media outlets that regularly carry this sort of discussion about whether famous man X has made the right sort of personal-life decisions. There's an enormous amount of that about women by women. Even more important, there is an enormous amount of commentary from Superior Women deploring the fascinations of that first group of women. The tribe that deplores other women for being obsessed with Beyonce's baby is itself doing exactly the same thing by being obsessed with those women.

You just don't find that on the masculine side. We have different problems, maybe worse. But not that one.

Anonymous said...

If Michelle Goldberg is cute, I'm dating a cover girl model...

@ Isabel- Make me a sandwich. Roast beef and cheese. You probably know a lot about those things.

Harry Baldwin said...

Jewish feminists often view traditionally religious stay-at-home shiska moms to be like different species from career-driven urbanites like themselves.

Four years ago, Jewish female heads were exploding all around us at the mere existence of such a creature as Sarah Palin. It was really something to see. They didn't have that much animosity toward Yasir Arafat.

Anonymous said...

Goldberg and other liberals/marxists/multiculturalists hate the Romny family because it lacks drug addicts, car-jackers, high-school dropouts, underage-unmarried mothers, or unemployed lay-abouts. Even worse is that virtually every grandchild will graduate college, have a stable life and pay taxes to support those who make poor choices.

It's really kind of creepy!

Anonymous said...

Yes but much of this coverage has been overlooking the key but hidden fact, namely, that what Ann Romney's done, you know, Stalin did it, Hitler did it

Anonymous said...

I thought it was literally hysterical that Goldberg, as part of her faux-apology, claimed that she is "hoping to have a baby very soon".

Huh? This is the same Goldberg that was boasting in 2003 (and at a much more fecund 27 years of age) of how she was determined not to have any children, and that "surveys" had proven that childless women end up much happier:
http://www.salon.com/2003/05/06/breeding/

One has to wonder what happened in the nine years since to have had her about-face.

hbd chick said...

@steve - "Women aren't all that good at tolerance toward other women, due to their relatively higher levels of conformism."

NOW you tell me! (~_^)

TangoMan said...

Women who aren't happy absolutely hate women who are. A great guy for a hubby, handsome, well-adjusted sons, a bunch of loving grandkids....all things lots of women who don't have any of those things resent.

Governor Palin: kids, grandkids, self-made woman, = Devil

Hilary Clinton: one kid, rides on husband's coattails, went to right schools = Angel

Sandra Fluke: Protests to have Catholic School pay for her birth control, not married, = postergirl

By all rights it should be Governor Palin who is celebrated by women for achieving an optimum mix of career, family and blazing a trail without using a powerful husband to clear the way, but she gets the scorn.

Do you think that politics might have something to do with these attitudes?

Anonymous said...

Going by the Republican primaries, those Romneys have always had a kind of image/Q Score problem, but this intrepid NYC journalist has just blown the lid off the whole fiendish enterprise. I mean, who can't see the seeds of evil totalitarianism in their eyes here:
http://www.algemeiner.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/ann-romney.jpg

a woman said...

Oh, Isabel. You only hang with "cool women." My, how hip of you.

However, note that many other women must not be, as you call your friends, "cool" since they exhibit behavior that must not be, in your words, "cool."

Men? Isabel, yes, they are different from us, much more direct, much less conniving in personal matters than we, and maybe less mysterious to us than we to them because of those traits, but I'd say, all things considered, that at least in this country, they've probably more reason to gripe about us than we about them.

Anonymous said...

I feel like Romney's going to be another Nixon in this sense. Nixon wasn't a conservative (and neither IMO is Romney). BUT liberals HATED Nixon so much. I mean they viciously attacked Nixon because they hated him on a gut level.

Baby Boomers were the ones to really hate Nixon ... though they were about as liberal as Nixon was conservative. Nixon reminded many of them of their abusive and/or absentee fathers.

Reagan, the true conservative, was a hit with Baby Boombers cause he reminded them of their kindly grandfathers.

a woman said...

"Feminists are so upsetting to you guys because they don't care about your opinions. And that's
awfully 'un-feminine' of us."

"You guys"?

Are you stereotyping the posters here, Isabel? Assuming they are men? You're a disgrace to the progressive hipster, feminist movement, engaging in all that stereotyping, that profiling and all. Shame on you.

Now, go to bed. It's past your bedtime.

Shouting Thomas said...

Nice to see, Steve, that your blog is now developing into a battle ground, with the liberal women streaming in to denounce your heresy.

It's gonna get mighty mean the next six months!

Every opponent of Obama will be denounced as racist, sexist and homophobic at least a thousand times. Denunciations will flow like water!

Auntie Analogue said...

The pussycat named Goldberg snarled, "Roo-aaaAAAOOWWWW."


Ya-a-aawn.


Pass the popcorn, there's a good Joan Crawford movie on.

Anonymous said...

Goldberg's all right, but Jessica Valenti and Alyssa Rosenberg are my young feminist blogger crushes. They seem like they'd be more fun to hang out with, too. Amanda Marcotte just has a mean, hard look to her that matches her writing.

Isabel said...

"Google image Michelke Goldberg.....cute in some not at all in others. Like that shape shifting girl in Seinfeld.

Dan in DC"

yeah, women are so catty! Always judging each others' looks...yeah right, meanwhile you guys can't EVER discuss a woman without discussing her looks. I challenge you to point to one example of men on this blog criticizing a woman and having it not end up about how attractive/old/other irrelevant info she is. One example. You won't find one because it never happened.

"
@ Isabel- Make me a sandwich. Roast beef and cheese. You probably know a lot about those things."

Oh yeah, and we often hear how women aren't funny. They don't get humor. Unlike this numbskull. Hilarious stuff. Never heard that one before! Right.

Chicago said...

Campaign is getting dirtier by the minute, now down to attacking candidates wives. Why no pokes at the muscular Michelle who looks like she's been using steroids? Or is that the ideal first lady look, someone who could be on the cover of some muscle magazine?

Anonymous said...

If Michelle Goldberg is cute....

Ive just been looking pictures, she isnt too bad.

Mitch said...

Michelle Goldberg is not the kind of woman who resents Ann Romney for having such a picture perfect life. Michelle Goldberg is annoyed at Romney for not living the life she thinks all women should live because Goldberg is a domineering feminazi.

The kind of women who resent Ann Romney for her perfect life are snarking at her hair, her clothes, and her shoes, and probably think all those picture perfect grandkids are dog-ugly.

jody said...

michelle goldberg, the jewish woman, doesn't like european americans having too many children. who could have predicted that?

it could be their usual selective filter thing, where it's ok for other groups to be christian and have lots of kids, but the big no-no is for christian euro american conservatives to have more than 2. or it could simply be overt hostility for successful europeans having a big family.

either way, we know what goldberg really thinks. the romneys are nazis. this is the same label the tebow family was slapped with by a jewish sportswriter during the 2010 NFL draft.

Anonymous said...

"intelligent" ,"cool, confidant" - who talks about themselves this way? Better to let others be the judge of those things. Did you ever hear of Dorothy Parker describing herself similarly?

I know what I'm talking about because I'm a cool, confident, intelligent, anonymous guy.

Anonymous said...

"I feel like Romney's going to be another Nixon in this sense."

The reasons the left hated Nixon are much different than the reasons the left is hating on Romney.

Actually, I disagree that they actually do hate Romney. For a Republican, he's mighty centrist. They know he's a former governor of the most liberal state in the union, a practical businessman, a man who is a doer, not an ideologue.

They are feeling right now what Scott Fitzgerald called the "hot whips of panic" because they know that Obama hasn't delivered and they feel he just_may_lose.

It's the fear of losing that has them "hating."

I also think they sense that there are some real leaders, some movers and shakers of the future in the GOP, really sharp, attractive, serious guys like Paul Ryan, Marco Rubio, and Bobby Jindal (and it pisses them off that Rubio and Jindal are minorities) and then there are up and coming GOP women with executive experience who'll be ready for bigger things down the road, people like Governors Nikki Hailey (Indian too) and Susanna Martinez (ahh, Hispanic).

They are scared and pissed off.

Whiskey said...

Hilarious. And of course Steve is right, among Upper Class White women this war of status and having the "correct" amount of yuppie kids is critical. All meant to justify life choices: man-hopping through the twenties and early thirties, one desperate IVF designer eugenic yuppie baby (maybe by a sperm donor as a single mother); raising by various nannies and mannies.

As tastemakers this female cohort has outsized influence. Far different than the traditional male social structure of patronage-command. Women copy the "in women" style etc. instinctively. In Western male circles this almost never happens.

Anonymous said...

Newsweek and Daily Beast columnist Michelle Goldberg



Why do so many people named "Goldberg" get employed as writers? It's not due to their intelligence and mastery of the English language, as this 'Michelle Goldberg' person illustrates.

Susanne P. Anthony said...

Okay, people, maybe you don't frequent enough other blogs to see a troll when you come across one (and now that I think about it, this blog is remarkably free of tiresome leftists who resemble apes stuck in the monkey house by amusing their bored selves with throwing poo all over the place), but I've seen people like this Isabel repeatedly elsewhere.

They crave attention by saying stupid things to rile up the natives. They're like Jehovah's witnesses, who get a thrill out of having the heathens slam the door in their face, except that these ones are already in your house and there's no way to get them out (unless you ban them like this Razib character, whoever he may be).

So, to make a long story short (too late!): Don't feed the troll!

That means, don't respond to her puerile provocations (and it may well be that "she" is a "he" just pretending for the present circumstances). If you simply ignore her, she'll get bored and go away. Silence is the best retort.

So, let's all sing it: Don't feed the troll, don't feed the troll!

Otherwise, this tedious "woman" will take up residence and prevent the adults from having a conversation.

Anonymous said...

Isabel said... Why is it a "real war" when it's between men, and "about status" when it's between women?


Because men shoot each other and drop bombs on each other ("real war") while women try to hurt each others feelings.

No need to thank me, baby girl. I'm always looking to help out the weaker sex.

Anonymous said...

"either way, we know what goldberg really thinks. the romneys are nazis. this is the same label the tebow family was slapped with by a jewish sportswriter during the 2010 NFL draft."

After seeing this Michelle Goldberg and listening to her try to express herself, I'm not at al sure she knows herself why she dislikes the Romneys, except that they are not black or some other minority.

I suspect she has been taught to feel that she and her family, her tribe, are responsible for the success of people like Michelle and Barack Obama. After all, without the people with names like Goldberg going down to Mississippi and all and fighting for civil rights along side those poor blacks, without the Southern Poverty Law Center, the ACLU, without people like her and her own, those po' blacks would still be in Jim Crow land.

Ms. Goldberg is likely to feel that the Obamas and their kind owe her kind something and so she feels that as long as he occupies the Oval, she does too.

However, if that successful Mormon and his pretty wife should make it to 1600 Penn. Ave, why, they'd owe her nothing. Her parents and grandparents never fought beside any Mormons, trying to get them their rights. Why, how's she to feel any sense of superiority to a Mormon, huh? Those Mormons are just a mite bit too self-sufficient for her taste.

Anonymous said...

Loving the women popping up in this thread to say that Goldberg doesn't sound resentful at all.

I know a lot of Goldbergs through my wife and my family. Single women who would be defined as "successful", at least materially. Always talking about how they took this trip, bought these shoes, etc, and how happy they are.

Until the second bottle of wine gets uncorked and they're crying about how empty their life is when they were tossed aside like a used sock by their latest boyfriend and how lucky we are to have three children and how she is blessed in having a good husband.

I imagine this is not an isolated occurance.

Anonymous said...

"I mean, who can't see the seeds of evil totalitarianism in their eyes here:"

http://www.algemeiner.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/ann-romney.jpg

Nice pic. I know Mormons are fecund, but I can't help but think that they kept going for at least ONE girl.

In fact, come to think of it, I think I heard either one of them mention that a while back.

a woman said...

Uh oh,

Unlike the feminist Isabel (troll or not), I am a woman who loves gossip, and this is too much to resist: there's bad blood between Michelle and Oprah. Oh, and even juicier--for us women at least-- Michelle thinks Oprah is a bad role model because of her weight. Oh, DELICIOUS.

Of course, don't breathe a word of this to anyone because, well, what if it's not true? Ah, heck, it's fun to believe it *is* true!!!!!

http://dailycaller.com/2012/05/14/michelle-obama-vs-oprah-a-weighty-matter/

Isabel said...

"
I know a lot of Goldbergs through my wife and my family"

Sure you do. All those poor, barren, unfulfilled feminist harpies. We know the stereotypes. And we all know how unfulfilling exotic travel and lucrative jobs can be. It's enough to drive anyone into the kitchen begging to just make someone a sandwich.

"
I imagine this is not an isolated occurance."

I can guarantee that this only ever happened in your imagination.

"but I'd say, all things considered, that at least in this country, they've probably more reason to gripe about us than we about them."

A totally content-less comment. What can I say? First you start off your accusation with no less than four vague qualifiers, then offer no concrete examples or even a description of the behavior. Whatever.

"Are you stereotyping the posters here, Isabel? Assuming they are men?"

Mostly men (let's see some stats if you are challenging that) and a few insecure women desperate for the public approval of men, yes.

"
Otherwise, this tedious "woman" will "

Right. I'm not a real woman. Never heard that one before. Better go bake some cookies before I sprout a penis, or god forbid, muscles like Michelle Obama. How un-feminine of her! tsk tsk. She should appear soft and weak. Maybe even bind her feet so she can walk unsteadily, so arousing!

"
After seeing this Michelle Goldberg"

What's with the "this" Isabel or "this" Michelle Goldberg? wtf?

"with the liberal women streaming in to denounce "

One woman speaking up for herself= "women streaming in...". Feeling a little nervous are you?

Maya said...

Steve,

The generalizations you make about women here are true when it comes to both sexes, but they also don't apply to a great many individuals (of both sexes). In traditional societies, women were more adamant about adhering to "the script" because "the script" was their only source of safety, stability and power. At school, boys get teased a lot more for being different than girls do, I think. That's why parents are a lot more likely to give their daughters creative names, and their sons- traditional names.

Maya said...

"It's so adorable how you look up to men. I bet they love you, and that makes you feel warm inside, and smugly superior to those vengeful feminists."

Isabel,
A thousand apologies for butting in, but I'd like to respond to this little something you wrote to "a woman".

You see, in my experience, all gender warriors are complete and total losers who are merely covering up for profound personal failure, so I absolutely do feel superior to those vengeful feminists. If you do have something important to communicate, I'd humbly advise you to find a better way of phrasing because each time I come across a message resembling the sum of your posts, I can't help but be completely assured that:

1. I have a smarter, cooler, funnier and more involved father than the messenger.

2. My man is better in bed, more fun and more loving than anyone the messenger has ever been with.

3. The messenger is secretly jealous of me and, among other things, wishes she had a butt shaped just like mine.


People who have something of value to contribute need to be taken seriously, and it's hard to take anyone seriously while you pity them. I hope you found my suggestion helpful, and good luck in your efforts!

Maya said...

Isabel and Whiskey should get married. Together, they could preside over the war between the sexes events at the special olympics.

Anonymous said...

Wow. This country is finished.

Anonymous said...

Oprah is a lesbian. Perhaps Michelle is sick of the LGBT crowd?

PS Steve, you're not going to tell us that Oprah is a typical hetero female, are you?

Anonymous said...

You got to feel sorry for the southern evangelical, blue collar, red-state Republican base. Now they have no choice but to vote for a non-christian, elitist one-percenter from the North who created and implemented the "socialist" health care plan in the blue state of Massachsetts on which the Obamacare they hate so passionately is based.

The poor brains of the Tea Partyers will be getting scrambled this election...

Maya said...

Come on, Palin wasn't hated because she's a married, conservative mother of a large brood. She was hated because she's an airhead, and our possibility of her becoming the vice president seemed like a joke. A lot of people couldn't help but be embarrassed for her most of the time. She's the intellectual equivalent of Al Sharpton.

Anonymous said...

"Women aren't all that good at tolerance toward other women, due to their relatively higher levels of conformism."

The whole feminist movement in sweden played out like a war between the two camps. One camp won, and voila housewives are a rarity! Grrl power!

It's amusing that the so-called social indoctrination that feminists speak of, they themselves are so good at that they can label following in their arch-enemy's footsteps as independence/emancipation/freedom/whatever.


"Shrill scots-irish lass "creeped out" by blonde woman! News at 11! "

re-run of Cheers at 9.

"Razib is an asshole if he can't handle my comments."

It is not I that moves, but the globe that rotates. Hush, do not rotate, say I!

"One has to wonder what happened in the nine years since to have had her about-face. "

Quoting an illuminated poster above:
'It's a drag staying married to the same person for a long time.'

It's a drag to hold the same opinion for a long time.
What do you mean that 86400 seconds are a small period of time?!

Sometimes facts get in the way, but I am willing to bet that the above is the right reason (and for the small matter of her ovaries drying up). After all, change is the law of nature! And it's important to progress into new viewpoints!!

Ban Maya, keep the freshmeat, if she/he/it is not a troll.

Anonymous said...

""It's a drag staying married to the same person for a long time.""

Really? I've always considered it to be honorable and a testament to a love greater than oneself. To help be a positive and stabilizing influence on your children, family, community and society.

Anonymous said...

Maya, boys may be more bullied by other boys in school, but it basically stops when they hit a certain age. Women NEVER stop.

I do some training at my gym. If the chubby women I work with spent more time exercising and less chattering about the "skinny bitches", they'd maybe see some results.

Anon 5:25, let's agree to force Ann Romney to stop talking about politics and such when Whoopie Goldberg and Joy Behar stop too. Deal?

Big Bill said...

"Especially Jewish lesbian Democrats with black kids."

Oh. My. God. That little boy looks just like Obama. Couldn't they afford to buy a little sperm that looks like them? Michelle is going to be smoking' if she sees this picture!

Rohan Swee said...

Isabel: I guess you are trying to portray me as some wacky aggressive feminist stereotype?

No effort required - you're way out ahead on the "portraying Isabel as a stereotype" front, a walking illustration of that perennial joke...

Man: "Women generally take things too personally."

Woman: "No I don't!"

Ever notice how the alleged "tools of the patriarchy" women seem to be able to discuss issues with a dispassionate "just the facts" approach, while the "progressive", "independent" types always manage to go from zero to "personal anecdotes & butthurt" in one comment flat?

Rohan Swee said...

Maya: Come on, Palin wasn't hated because she's a married, conservative mother of a large brood. She was hated because she's an airhead, and our possibility of her becoming the vice president seemed like a joke.

Maya, you and I detest Palin because she's an airhead. But since when are lefties upset by the prospect of an airhead in high office? *They* hated on her, obsessively and hysterically, for precisely the reasons stated.

David said...

>Four years ago, Jewish female heads were exploding all around us at the mere existence of such a creature as Sarah Palin.<

I knew one youngish Sarah Silverman semi-lookalike at a law firm in a nearby city who couldn't stop talking about Palin - initiating long, embarrassing, and inappropriate arguments about how awful, stupid, and sad Palin is, in front of clients, customers, support staff, guests, anybody who was around, even me (silently fixing people's computers), just out of the blue, unsolicited. They tell me she had to be taken aside and gently counseled about it more than once. Just jaw-dropping.

These harpies would tear out ALL of Sarah's hair if they ever got ahold of it. Ann's, too.

If you're a self-supporting white couple, just remember this: having your family = getting a government stipend to have your family = Hitler. Actually, just remember you = Hitler. It's shorter.

Rohan Swee said...

As for Michelle Obama...

What the hell - since this thread has already gone all girly and catty, I can't resist linking this.

Let's! said...

So marriage has crumbled because of

1) Civil Rights laws which make it illegal to hire/fire based on marital status (prior, many companies blacklisted single workers over 28 - too footloose and fancy free)

2) ending of cultural taboos about sex (I'm leaving out technology because condoms have been around forever but now there's no shame in waving 'em around)

3) no-fault divorce

4) capitalism turbocharging its labor supply with women in the workforce

5) Democrats' self-serving efforts to make government act as surrogate husband (so actual husbands now get to support their own family's AND somebody else's! awesome!)

Today's GOP is tinkering with 5) and gives tiresome Promise Keeperish "man up and GET MARRIED" lectures in response to 2) but as Steve notes, this is highly inadequate.

Instead of fighting the last war, the GOP needs to come up with new incentives for families, and go big.

Drunk Idiot said...

DYork said...

"I remember back in 2008 saying this photo would outrage Democrats to the very center of their identity.

If you don't understand why Democrats point, sputter, twitch and burn over that photo you don't understand American politics and pop culture.
"

Yeah, I saw that picture for the first time a few weeks ago, but the first thing I thought of upon seeing it was just how much it will set off white liberals.

Visions of foaming-at-the-mouth feminists ranting about Don Draper, Stepford wives, rolling back the clock to 1950s white picket fence suburban repressiveness, Nazi eugenics, Don Draper, Dr. Mengele, Red State Christian fecundity and Don Draper instantly came to mind.

So did visions of Chris Matthews wetting himself over the lack of black faces in the Romney family photo (racists!).

And the NYT/Salon/Slate/New Yorker/Atlantic/Daily Beast, etc. columns that allude to jack-booted storm troopers goose stepping to the Republican National Convention, New Jim Crow era Tea Parties, Wagner operas, Reichstag Fires, Southern Strategies, fascist Catholic Bishops, Tim Tebow interceptions, and homophobic, science-denying, cousin-fu**ing, Red State Evangelical Catholic Dominionist Mormon Neo Nazi bullies who hate gay marriage and wear their magic underwear a few sizes too tight in a desperate attempt to ward off their incessantly recurring homoerotic urges all but write themselves.

Lee Siegel is probably working on one right now.

Come to think of it, if Michael Tomasky, or Frank Rich, or Bill Kelleher, Maureen Dowd, Amanda Marcotte, Charles Blow Me, or any other esteemed writer from the establishment media reads this and wants to bite some of the concepts above for a new column, by all means, go ahead.

They're all pretty obvious and cliched though.

Anonymous said...

@Maya

How come that airhead who thinks there are at least 57 states, that "corpsman" is pronounced "corpseman", and who thinks that Austrian is spoken in Austria did not get the same flak for his airheadness?

Could it be because Henry Winkler is sexist?

a man said...

So many posters are quick to point out that Goldberg is Jewish. Yet no one finds it necessary to point out Lindy West's Scandinavian heritage. Why so?

Drunk Idiot said...

Anonymous (5/14/12 9:10 PM) said...

"The reasons the left hated Nixon are much different than the reasons the left is hating on Romney.

Actually, I disagree that they actually do hate Romney. For a Republican, he's mighty centrist. They know he's a former governor of the most liberal state in the union, a practical businessman, a man who is a doer, not an ideologue.

They are feeling right now what Scott Fitzgerald called the "hot whips of panic" because they know that Obama hasn't delivered and they feel he just_may_lose.

It's the fear of losing that has them "hating."

I also think they sense that there are some real leaders, some movers and shakers of the future in the GOP, really sharp, attractive, serious guys like Paul Ryan, Marco Rubio, and Bobby Jindal (and it pisses them off that Rubio and Jindal are minorities) and then there are up and coming GOP women with executive experience who'll be ready for bigger things down the road, people like Governors Nikki Hailey (Indian too) and Susanna Martinez (ahh, Hispanic).

They are scared and pissed off.
"

You're over-thinking the matter. Democrats don't fear Romney -- they see him as the weakest Republican nominee in 50 years and think Obama has reelection in the bag.

They do, however, hate him (HATE HATE HATE) . . . but it doesn't stem from anything much deeper than the fact that he's a prominent Republican. His track record of centrism in Massachusetts is neither here nor there.

It's true, though, that Romney's "central casting" style embodiment of every 40 year old-plus cliched stereotype of WASPy Nixon-era country club Republicanism probably stokes the fires for some.

Then again, they hated Bush and what they saw as his anti-intellectual Texas redneck swagger (they sure love them some Obama swagga though, don't they!?!). And at least stylistically, Bush's (affected) Midland/Odessa "aw shucks" country boy schtick was at the opposite end of the spectrum from the image Romney projects (i.e., the affluent, suburban Valedictorian/Homecoming King all grown up).

To appropriate Rabbi Hillel, Democrats hate (HATE HATE HATE) Republicans; the rest is explanation.

rob said...

Anonymous said...
Shrill Jewess "creeped out" by blonde woman! News at 11!


Dammit, first anon got there first!

When will women learn that calling woman "creepy" has no sting at all.

Anonymous said...

Alas, my dear misogynists, the herd instinct is strong in both sexes, it's almost like some of you guys have never hung around with guys.

Women's problem is that they are primarily hypocritical, but that is a nurture problem. Old-fashioned culture, and the newer Cultural Marxism both force women to deny their natures.


The problem is the alternative blogosphere is filled with guys somewhere on the autism/Aspergers spectrum or guys who have been burned by gals and so are critical of the status quo. The conformist guys, who outnumber us, aren't here. And yes, they do get angry if you don't act like they do. Men are as lemming-like as any woman, "sure sir, I'll take out that heavily defended position for a piece of metal I can pin on my government issued costume. I wants me some validation from senior males!"

Please also note men's athletic conformist tribalism which extends back into Antiquity if reports about the mobs in Constantinople are correct. Men just have a larger percentage of misfits and weirdos than do women, but that doesn't really say anything about the average conformist guy.

Isabel said...

Did you just censor my comment? Oh well, another dude who can't handle it. You people will always be marginalized. Always. Making up stories about bitter chubby women at the gym won't help. Neither will accusing other women of being jealous of your awesome ass, "Maya" (obviously a man).

Aging Hag said...

"Maya, boys may be more bullied by other boys in school, but it basically stops when they hit a certain age. Women NEVER stop."

Anonymous, you are so full of sh*zz I can hardly believe it. What a dumb comment.

What do you call 'working'? I'd call that a life-long case of being bullied by higher-status males.

It ends when you retire, or die.

Get a clue.

peterike said...

This seems to have slipped by during the pile-on of poor, hapless Isabel, the Sad Clown of Feminism. She writes:

Same for the women I grew up with, and my sisters, their daughters, and my female students, etc

Her female students?? Students?

Ahhh that 'splains everything about this internet Lucy. Probably busily corrupting young minds on the taxpayer's dime and then finds a few moments to dip into the fray here and say a lot of useless shit and fire a bunch of floppy, foam arrows. That don't make you Robin Hood, honey.

Anonymous said...

""It's a drag staying married to the same person for a long time.""

Really? I've always considered it to be honorable and a testament to a love greater than oneself. To help be a positive and stabilizing influence on your children, family, community and society.


Much like religion there are a handful of true believers and the rest who suspect to varying degrees the whole thing is a charade for someone else's benefit.

Ben Tillman said...

Baby Boomers were the ones to really hate Nixon ...

Grace Slick was born October 30, 1939. She wrote:

But Mexico is under the thumb
Of a man we call Richard
And he's come to call himself king
But he's a small-headed man
And he doesn't know a thing
About how to deal for you

Old Fogey said...

If she is anything like me (I am a grandmother, too) I am sure that Mrs. Romney would rather not have anything published under her name. Her husband's political advisers probably think it might help. Let's hope that they realize soon that putting her in this position is not helpful at all. Dignity and good manners are the qualities most needed in our first ladies.

Ovibos Nunivak said...

@anonymous 5:41 AM

Mark Ames would disagree with your theory that bullying ends in grade school, see his work on the causes of workplace rage. After school, outside of the lumpenprol jungle, where bullying never really ends, social and biological caused aggressive urges are channeled into constructive outlets like war or police organizations.

Leo Ladenson said...

My takeaway on this was how it shows the fundamental ignorance of pundits like Goldberg. The "crown of motherhood" was a quite common phrase in 19/c discourse, particularly religious discourse.

It's just weird to me that all Goldberg can hear in that phrase is totalitarianism.

Maya said...

"Did you just censor my comment? Oh well, another dude who can't handle it. You people will always be marginalized. Always. Making up stories about bitter chubby women at the gym won't help. Neither will accusing other women of being jealous of your awesome ass, "Maya" (obviously a man)."

People who are annoyed or amused by those who make victimhood their identity aren't marginalized. They are the majority.

And feeling instinctively superior to your kind doesn't make me a man. I am a women in perfect hormonal health. It's perfectly natural to notice where any given person falls on the achievement/success/character ladder. And why would anyone need convoluted excuses and a fake sense of empowerment if he or she weren't an intellectually dishonest failure in all areas of life that are most important for personal fulfillment?

Anonymous said...

"Sure you do. All those poor, barren, unfulfilled feminist harpies. We know the stereotypes. And we all know how unfulfilling exotic travel and lucrative jobs can be."

I'm not having kids. We're DINKWADS. Our occasional nice vacations, nice cars and gainful employment doesn't seem to promote envy in anyone. I have plenty of interesting friends, but they are caught up in raising their families. We have a pretty good cable package. The neighbors are friendly, but we have little in common. Basically we are worn out by commuting and working. We watch some TV, go to bed and do it again.
I spend one day each weekend visiting my elderly,
infirm parents.

Life can be tragic with children, but there is definitely a tragic element to not having them. The time you might have spent in bed worrying about the kids will be spent asking yourself, what am I doing here? Sorry for being so morbid, but if I don't share, what am I doing here. Don't bother asking for details.

Sincerely,
Cool, Confident, Anonymous Guy

Maya said...

"Maya, boys may be more bullied by other boys in school, but it basically stops when they hit a certain age. Women NEVER stop.

I do some training at my gym. If the chubby women I work with spent more time exercising and less chattering about the "skinny bitches", they'd maybe see some results."

Allow me to respectfully disagree, dear sir, because I've met men, and I've lived among them. Let me tell you something: bullies (of either sex) never stop. It's a personality trait. Bullies who are smart enough learn to act within societal norms. That's it.

As far as eccentricity goes, I'll grant that men tend to come up with revolutionary styles and popularize obscure (previously unsexy) things a lot more often than women. But we are talking about rare, exceptional personalities. On average, girls get a lot less flack from their peers for having weird names or weird clothes than do boys. Overall, most people of both sexes are conformist with a few individuals here and there not caring about following the herd as much.

Anonymous said...

"Overall, most people of both sexes are conformist "

'women, due to their relatively higher levels of conformism'

Ban Maya, she/it/he/he-she doesn't even read your post.

"But we are talking about rare, exceptional personalities. "

who were surrounded by men like them, the men who weren't blessed with scots-irish ancestry and don't get much play-time.


"Alas, my dear misogynists,"

mmkay

"the herd instinct is strong in both sexes, it's almost like some of you guys have never hung around with guys."

yup, grew up in women's company, had better friendships with them, saw men as dirty beasts, and thus your branding is appropriate.
"Misogynist: A man who hates women as much as women hate one another".

I'd correct it to a tenth as much for our modern society. And 100th as much as he hates other men.

Anonymous said...

What do you call 'working'? I'd call that a life-long case of being bullied by higher-status males.

Let's go one step further and call it wage slavery.

Catperson said...

Oprah is a lesbian. Perhaps Michelle is sick of the LGBT crowd?

PS Steve, you're not going to tell us that Oprah is a typical hetero female, are you?


There's no evidence Oprah's lesbian, in fact prior to her playing the therapist on Ellen's coming out show in the late 1990s, there was never a single rumor about Oprah being gay, despite the fact that's she's been scrutinized constantly by the tabloids for 26 years.

The gossip is that Michelle resents Oprah because Obama turned to Oprah for advice and not Michelle. She probably feels inferior because Oprah is a self-made woman, while Michelle had to marry into power, and even her husband needed Oprah to be his king maker (delivering over a million votes and incalculable momentum in the razor close to 2008 Democratic primary).

If the gossip is true (and it's probably blown out of
proportion) Michelle probably feels upstaged that another (black) woman played the most important role in her husband's life, and everybody knows it.

Udolpho.com said...

"She was hated because she's an airhead, and our possibility of her becoming the vice president seemed like a joke."

That certainly explains the outrage at Joe Biden as Vice President.

Thomas said...

The many faces of Michelle Goldberg:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/b/b4/Michelle_goldberg.jpg/220px-Michelle_goldberg.jpg

Ok, not too bad. The professional book-jacket photographer who took this better be on her Hanukkah card list...

http://cdn2-b.examiner.com/sites/default/files/styles/large_lightbox/hash/9e/5d/1337004847_Goldberg.JPG

Urk. Houston, we have a problem...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/majikthise/534852949/

And here we're getting into coyote-ugly territory.

And in motion: http://www.thedailybeast.com/videos/2012/02/02/planned-parenthood-vs-komen-why-komen-loses.html

Ok, so she's a bit zaftig and puffy-faced. I wouldn't say hideous... But I can't imagine that any man of equivalent social stature to a nationally-published commentator and journalist wouldn't be able to do significantly better. And she's 36 or 37. We're looking at the next Maureen Dowd.

If she's hoping to have a baby soon, sperm clinics are probably her best bet.

Charlotte said...

"Maya, boys may be more bullied by other boys in school, but it basically stops when they hit a certain age. Women NEVER stop."

On what planet? I usually don't get into arguments about whos the worstest of them all (men or women) but that is an insane comment. In the workplace, in the political forum, on the street, etc etc, you find male bullying. Except it tends to get called other things. If anything my personal observation is that women change more because they feel the need to get along. Motherhood can do that too.
I have observed a few interestingly nasty and odd interactions with elderly men, who for little reason than that they could get away with it, insulted or started weirdly personal arguments. I figured the young woman probably reminded him of some ex- in his life, or maybe he was one of those boys who liked to yell in public, dirty or insulting things at some girl or woman just walking down the street. It happens all the time to women, often at night.
So no, I don't think male bullies ever stop. Maybe they just get their lights punched out a lot harder and learned how to shut up at dangerous times.

telemand said...

a man said...
"So many posters are quick to point out that Goldberg is Jewish. Yet no one finds it necessary to point out Lindy West's Scandinavian heritage. Why so?"

Because Scandinavians have not been cited as running the media far beyond what their percentage of the population should indicate. You must be new here.

Charlotte said...

Thomas said: "Ok, so she's a bit zaftig and puffy-faced. I wouldn't say hideous... But I can't imagine that any man of equivalent social stature to a nationally-published commentator and journalist wouldn't be able to do significantly better. And she's 36 or 37. We're looking at the next Maureen Dowd.

If she's hoping to have a baby soon, sperm clinics are probably her best bet."

Let it never be said that men are as unkind and personal in their critiques as women.
Jeesh. Sometimes all you can do is laugh. Me no like Ms. Goldberg's ideas either, but I don't care what she looks like--she sounds anti-gentile, like quite a few non-gentile pundits I've read commenting on gentile fertility. Yet blacks and browns with 10 kids on welfare doesn't seem to bother them. They are pretty worthless as commenters on people who have to make their own way in the world. They have no idea of reality. Cool? Who the hell uses that word with a straight face anymore?

By the way, your fevered imagination is overpopulated with young Cary Grants. There are indeed men who would desire ms. Goldberg. I know you don't want to hear it, but Mr., I've seen similar. One just welcomed her second rugrat at the age of 42. There's no reason for Ms. Goldberg to lose hope even if Mr. B.O. is not reelected.

Anonymous said...

Hag, work with other women exclusively, then come back and report.

Sorry that this phallocratic world we live in keeps you from a gig you enjoy.

ben tillman said...

So many posters are quick to point out that Goldberg is Jewish. Yet no one finds it necessary to point out Lindy West's Scandinavian heritage. Why so?

First, because we don't know who she is or how she's supposed to be relevant to this discussion. And, second, because any antipathy she feels against her own people would have to have been cultivated in her by outsiders.

K(yle) said...

I've never seen any serious cases of male 'bullying' in adult men that weren't alcohol related. I'm sure it happens in some workplaces, but I nowhere near the level that it happens among children and teens. That I, and others here apparently could completely evade the phenomena as adults where as virtually no one is unfamiliar with it as children speaks volumes.

The whole police/military "bullying" is nonsense. There are occupations that will turn a non-bully into an aggressive asshole, but that's not 'bullying' in the conventional sense and everyone knows it. You are talking primarily about things that are qualities necessary for the job, that can wind up being abusive power trips.

The problem I see with the whole male vs female bullying is a perception gap. Lots of adult women in the workforce are extraordinarily passive-aggressive which is usually certifiable bullying, and apparently a lot of women don't see passive-aggressive behavior as bullying at all.

The creation of a hostile environment to the target of female scorn is much easier, because by definition passive-aggressive behavior is subtle. The related sensitivity to subtle social cues also can trigger a feud where no slight was intended.

Male bullying in the workplace doesn't happen because we'll get fired for calling each other faggots, bragging about fucking each other's wives, mothers, sisters and the ensuing fist fights that occur.

As for boss bullying, from my experience women are not exempt here and are actually worse bullies and dish out abuse as some kind of method of testing for respect. I've had unqualified male bosses, but I've never had a female boss that ever displayed the kind of personal, emotional distance that characterizes professionalism. They demand a kind of respect or obeisance based on personal, subjective criteria and frequently test for that obeisance by making their subordinates uncomfortable. Sometimes it is passive-aggressive, but given the position of authority it often is not.

Isabel said...

I didn't think it could get more annoying what with everyone here having the same name, but how can anyone follow a thread around here with this constant capricious censorship? I never know when and if a comment will appear. Bloggers are the biggest control freaks EVER. I can see banning people, but picking and choosing which posts to allow? And my BEST comments are the ones censored. What a surprise.

Isabel said...

I just realized the thing that is so disturbing about how you "moderate at whim" - it is that you are basically using your commenters for your own purposes. I've seen this many times. Allow the comments attacking another commenter if they are supporting your views, but disallow those by the attacked person, especially if they make a good case for themselves. But yeah, the post where I complain about censorship makes it through so people can say I'm a whiner, etc. It is a cowardly, unethical form of censorship. Power corrupts on the blog'o'sphere, like everywhere.

Anonymous said...

Theme of the 2012 Election: Crown vs.Halo

Anonymous said...

'So many posters are quick to point out that Goldberg is Jewish. Yet no one finds it necessary to point out Lindy West's Scandinavian heritage. Why so?'

"Because Scandinavians have not been cited as running the media far beyond what their percentage of the population should indicate."

and after the epochal blanda upp video, they are immune to all criticism. So unless you can point to scots-irish influence in the making of that video, expect the partisan treatment.

David said...

"Creepy" is what ignoramuses call anything new that isn't popular and preapproved by their ingroup. Dumb people are frightened of everything, even their own shadows, and their trying to hide their fear accounts for much of their behavior. Including calling other people "witch," "racist," "sad," and "heretic" and displaying bravado like "You can't handle me."

David said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Q said...

So many posters are quick to point out that Goldberg is Jewish. Yet no one finds it necessary to point out Lindy West's Scandinavian heritage. Why so?




The question raised was why are there so many Jews in the pundit class, where what can and cannot be talked about is decided. It's not because of their brilliance with words - just read some of them.

If people with "Scandinavian heritage" made up a grotesquely exaggerated proportion of various important professions that would likewise be something worth commenting on. But they are not so it isn't.

Dahlia said...

I agree with everything Charlotte says.

Also, has Steve already forgotten the Attack of Tim Tebow by the Nebbish? Much cattier and not an aberration, either.

Not a soul had the attitude, "Men! Same ol', same ol'" No, we discussed ethnicity, philosophy, religion, values, class... the attitude was much more respectful of the aggressors' motivations and no one in any way insinuated that men like Tebow kind of had it coming, being an aggressive male and all.

Anonymous said...

'So many posters are quick to point out that Goldberg is Jewish. Yet no one finds it necessary to point out Lindy West's Scandinavian heritage. Why so?'

To the fair and unbiased commentators here at iSteve, Scandinavians are Nice White People regardless of what individuals are saying or doing. Jews are always Jews.

rob said...

Sailer wrote, Women aren't all that good at tolerance toward other women, due to their relatively higher levels of conformism. A typical woman tends to want to do what other women want to do, and want other women to do what she wants to do.

Then an anonymous chick agreed with Sailer, then Isabel said,

It's so adorable how you look up to men. I bet they love you, and that makes you feel warm inside, and smugly superior to those vengeful feminists.

Isabel, that right there, how you respond to women who disagree with you, illustrates Sailer's point.

Maya said...

K(yle),

Not all men are the spitting, binge drinking, back slapping types who would call each other faggots, if only it were allowed. Many men are non confrontational and don't have physical outlets for their daily stresses , so they get as good as anyone at channeling their aggression in the culturally accepted manner. I've met plenty of men who engaged in passive-aggressive behavior. Scheming, manipulating and insulting others within bounds of polite conversation aren't exclusively female activities.

Charlotte said...

"As for boss bullying, from my experience women are not exempt here and are actually worse bullies and dish out abuse as some kind of method of testing for respect. I've had unqualified male bosses, but I've never had a female boss that ever displayed the kind of personal, emotional distance that characterizes professionalism. They demand a kind of respect or obeisance based on personal, subjective criteria and frequently test for that obeisance by making their subordinates uncomfortable. Sometimes it is passive-aggressive, but given the position of authority it often is not."

That's too bad for you. I've had fantastic female bosses and women who were the soul of professionalism. I have also had quite a number that were what you describe, but I thank heaven for the good examples. They make my life worth living.
btw, do you ever think maybe you are part of the problem? You do not sound as if you would ever even want to encounter a woman who would not live up to your expectations.

tellemand said...

"Many men are non confrontational and don't have physical outlets for their daily stresses , so they get as good as anyone at channeling their aggression in the culturally accepted manner. I've met plenty of men who engaged in passive-aggressive behavior. Scheming, manipulating and insulting others within bounds of polite conversation aren't exclusively female activities."

Probably the most profound truth hiding in plain sight that has been made on this thread.
If women have a physically aggressive, male side (and quite a few do) then we have to acknowledge the inner yin, or female side, of men. The "bullying" I've seen among men is, in many ways, not different from that of women which may be why it goes unrecognized. It's just politics.

Face it. We're all punks if we don't patrol our baser inclinations. None of us wants to admit it.

JSM said...

"Maya said...
Isabel and Whiskey should get married. Together, they could preside over the war between the sexes events at the special olympics"

Post of the Week!

Anonymous said...

" But, as has often been said, in the war between the sexes, there will never be a final victory because there is too much fraternizing with the enemy."

Women have been winning for some time seeing how they own the kids, they have the options of lifestyles men don't (worker or home maker), and their scuffles aimed at getting more are portrayed as a "war one women"... Because whenever women, as a class, don't get what they want, something has to be wrong. s/