June 5, 2012

"But is it good for the Americans?"

Peter Beinart, former editor of Marty Peretz's New Republic, is puzzled by a new poll of Jewish voters:
They’re a lot less enthusiastic about immigration. A slight plurality opposes “the U.S. government making it possible for illegal immigrants to become U.S. citizens.” On immigration, in fact, American Jews are slightly to the American Jewish leadership’s right. I think Steven M. Cohen, who conducted the poll with Samuel Abrams, has noticed this waning Jewish support for immigration before. It’s intriguing, and depressing, given that many Jews still valorize their Ellis Island roots. 
Not quite sure what explains this. I’d suspect that anti-immigrant sentiment is highest near the border and among the Anglo working class, since such populations most often compete with immigrants for services and jobs. But Jews aren’t well represented in either cohort. If you can crack the mystery of Jewish nativism, email us at info@openzion.com, and we’ll post your answer.

My wacko nutjob guess is that American Jews tend to be fairly patriotic, certainly more so than Jewish media figures and leaders of Jewish organizations. Thus, average Jews are more likely to ask "But is it good for the Americans?" instead of only concerning themselves with "Is it good for the Jews?" as their spokesmen assume they should. In particular, Ellis Island Kitsch, while still going strong in the press, has to be getting a little old in real life.

92 comments:

William1066 said...

There is a whole lot of intermarriage between Jews and say Northern Euro Americans. Maybe these Jews are realizing that their (mostly Anglo) grandchildren will be the ones marginalized by the immigrants, cheated out of jobs by the affirmative action set asides, etc.

Another trend is Asian immigration. Those newer immigrants compete head-to-head with the Jews in most professions.

Peter A said...

You don't even have to be a patriotic Jew to oppose immigration. "What's good for the Jews?" Well, chances are, letting lots of Sub-saharan Africans, Mexicans, and Muslim North Africans move to the US is probably not great for the Jews long term. With continued immigration America's future basically looks a lot like Brazil. Not the worst place on earth, but a lot worse for Jews than,say, America in the 1970s. Even non-patriotic Jews, unless they can move to Australia, don't have much of a choice other than to stop immigration now.

Anonymous said...

Ellis Island was about Illegal Immigration?

Anonymous said...

Jews see the same decay we all see everyday. They're Jewish, not retarded.

Anonymous said...

I would say the bottom 1/3 of jewish professionals teach. Those teachers deal directly with the poor and minorities, that could have something to do with it. Who knows. Also its hard to say israel for the jews, American for everyone. Too much cognitive dissonance for that to be too stable. If non-jews can ruin Israel, what can Mexicans do to the US.

Jehu said...

Ordinary non-elite Jews are in much the same position as ordinary non-elite Methodists. Both have elites that are widely viewed as traitors on the immigration issue. But there will never be a backlash pogram against Methodists based on the actions of their elites. I'm not able to say the same thing as regards Jews in America. They would be wise to rein in their elites, lest they draw a 'historical' backlash onto their heads. But they won't, and when the center fails to hold, there must always be a scapegoat.

Anonymous said...

It’s intriguing, and depressing, given that many Jews still valorize their Ellis Island roots.

I’d suspect that anti-immigrant sentiment is highest near the border and among the Anglo working class, since such populations most often compete with immigrants for services and jobs.


Why is it "depressing" that some Jews oppose policies that force Anglo working class people to compete against foreigners for services and jobs? Beinart is such an asshole.

Anonymous said...

Also its hard to say israel for the jews, American for everyone. Too much cognitive dissonance for that to be too stable.

Hard for whom? Do you encounter Jews who struggle with this hypocrisy? Beinart doesn't appear to have any problem with it at all. He wrings his hands that Jews might oppose illegal infiltrators to the United States while he proclaims that sanctity of a "Jewish State" in Israel.

Anonymous said...

They would be wise to rein in their elites, lest they draw a 'historical' backlash onto their heads.

But mass immigration, while generating motives for a backlash, greatly reduces the means for such.

Beefy Levinson said...

Non-elite Jews probably worry about their children getting stabbed in a vibrant school as much as their Anglo neighbors.

Jehu said...

Anonymous,
That kind of backlash isn't intermediated by political power or even raw numbers. It's more a question of military power, something which beta white males, to use Whiskey's formulation, can produce in insane abundance. The only question is the will.

Anonymous said...

Jews see the same decay we all see everyday. They're Jewish, not retarded.

Thank you. The directness of it cracked me up.

- A Solid Citizen

Pfft the Elder said...

So called Jewish organizations have the same relationship to Jews as NOW has to women, the unions to the blue collar workers, etc. They are leftist organizations first, everything else distant second. And, as the card carrying leftists, they have the duty to uphold what OneStdev calls the "ragtag leftists coalition". That's what motivates them, not Ellis Island kitsch or whatever. It's as simple as that.

DJF said...

I wish people would stop using Elis Island as some sort of example of open borders immigration. Elis Island was the opposite, it was built to restrict immigration and keep out undesirable immigrants.

The same thing has happened to the Statue of Liberty, it had nothing to do with open borders immigration, it was to celebrate the independence of the USA and the right of Americans to run their own country including the right to determine who can come to the USA

But the open borders types have stolen both these places and turned them into open borders immigration ideals when in fact they were against such an idea.

Anonymous said...

The same thing has happened to the Statue of Liberty, it had nothing to do with open borders immigration, it was to celebrate the independence of the USA and the right of Americans to run their own country including the right to determine who can come to the USA.

It is incredible that Emma Lazarus, the woman whose poem advocated the United States accepting the "wretched refuse" of foreign countries, was a rabid Jewish nationalist.

Pfft the Elder said...

...while he proclaims that sanctity of a "Jewish State" in Israel.

Beinart "proclaims that sanctity of a Jewish State" by advocating the shrinking of the Israeli borders. In American terms, it would be the same as arguing that America must give up the Southwestern states to Mexico because the Anglos shouldn't have settled them in the first place. Some sanctity.

Auntie Analogue said...

Perhaps another reason American Jews turn against immigration is that so-called "American" employers have, for some years now, striven to not hire Americans for white collar positions and to instead hire foreigners on the cheap. US law firms openly advise US employers how to scam the H-1B visa program: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCbFEgFajGU&feature=player_embedded

Watch it and weep.

Anonymous said...

Beinart "proclaims that sanctity of a Jewish State" by advocating the shrinking of the Israeli borders. In American terms, it would be the same as arguing that America must give up the Southwestern states to Mexico because the Anglos shouldn't have settled them in the first place.

Very poor analogy. What Beinart is doing would instead be the equivalent to the United States giving up rights to Mexico in order to maintain a clear European majority in territory in seeks to control.

What are Israel's borders by the way?

Thrasymachus said...

"4 This is what the Lord Almighty, the God of Israel, says to all those I carried into exile from Jerusalem to Babylon: 5 “Build houses and settle down; plant gardens and eat what they produce. 6 Marry and have sons and daughters; find wives for your sons and give your daughters in marriage, so that they too may have sons and daughters. Increase in number there; do not decrease. 7 Also, seek the peace and prosperity of the city to which I have carried you into exile. Pray to the Lord for it, because if it prospers, you too will prosper.” 8 Yes, this is what the Lord Almighty, the God of Israel, says: “Do not let the prophets and diviners among you deceive you. Do not listen to the dreams you encourage them to have. 9 They are prophesying lies to you in my name. I have not sent them,” declares the Lord." Jeremiah 29:4-9

IHTG said...

Thrasymachus:
I love that verse.

Anonymous said...

Thus, average Jews are more likely to ask "But is it good for the Americans?" instead of only concerning themselves with "Is it good for the Jews?" as their spokesmen assume they should.

BLOOD LIBEL!

THE HATE WHICH DARE NOT SPEAK ITS NAME!

HOLOCAUST DENIER!

Anonymous said...

Very poor analogy. What Beinart is doing would instead be the equivalent to the United States giving up rights to Mexico in order to maintain a clear European majority in territory in seeks to control.

Or giving up control over Iraq because it was feared the Iraqis could seek representation in Congress.

Thrasymachus said...

"15 You may say, “The Lord has raised up prophets for us in Babylon,” 16 but this is what the Lord says about the king who sits on David’s throne and all the people who remain in this city, your fellow citizens who did not go with you into exile— 17 yes, this is what the Lord Almighty says: “I will send the sword, famine and plague against them and I will make them like figs that are so bad they cannot be eaten. 18 I will pursue them with the sword, famine and plague and will make them abhorrent to all the kingdoms of the earth, a curse[c] and an object of horror, of scorn and reproach, among all the nations where I drive them. 19 For they have not listened to my words,” declares the Lord, “words that I sent to them again and again by my servants the prophets. And you exiles have not listened either,” declares the Lord." Jeemiah 29:15-19

Anonymous said...

No part of our economy exists in a vacuum, even they,magical 12 foot tall, fur covered, laser eyed beings that they are, are adversely effected by such trends.

Anonymous said...

Very poor analogy. What Beinart is doing would instead be the equivalent to the United States giving up rights to Mexico in order to maintain a clear European majority in territory in seeks to control.

Or giving up control over Iraq because it was feared the Iraqis could seek representation in Congress.


Or withdrawing from Afghanistan because it is too expensive to maintain the occupation.

Anonymous said...

I’d suspect that anti-immigrant sentiment is highest near the border and among the Anglo working class, since such populations most often compete with immigrants for services and jobs.

>>Why is it "depressing" for Beinart that some Jews oppose policies that force Anglo working class people to compete against foreigners for services and jobs? Beinart is such an asshole.


What a sicko. At best, Beinart is indifferent to the suffering and dispossession of the diverse white Americans. He may even relish it.

Silver said...

My wacko nutjob guess is that American Jews tend to be fairly patriotic, certainly more so than Jewish media figures and leaders of Jewish organizations.

Probably.

But there's probably also a sense in which they simply figure that immigration has already dealt white america the fatal blow so no need for overkill, particularly now that the cost so obviously outruns the benefit. You know, it's not like it's 1960 any more.

Anonymous said...

Beinert focusing on immigration and sex shows the Center-Left/3rd Way/neoliberal/Clintonian Internationalist types could give a rat's arse about the poor- in this country.

If you look at the other parts of the poll, on the website Beinart links to, Jewish responses were still pretty leftist regarding social welfare spending. There was overwhelming majority for spending more on the needy and slight majorities for spending less on defense and the government being able to afford social spending.

There were pronounced majorities for higher taxes on the wealthy, and allocating more money for education, etc. There was also a high majority critical of the affect financial institutions have on the US.

What if we were to poll upper-class Catholics and Evangelicals? Would they be as worried about their poor countrymen or would they give the standard Chamber of Commerce approved b.s.? Would Dubya, McCain, Gingrich or Romney be so concerned with the poor- who are American citizens?

Maybe some of this reflects traditional Ashkenazi leftism, it might also reflect that a lot of Jewish folks have learned the lesson of beware Esau's tears.

SFG said...

Yawn...it's the Harvard-Madison Avenue-Wall Street-DC axis again. Jews are just better at getting a few of ours into the axis than you guys. But most people are average.

It is funny how many rank-and-file Jews I've met seem to think immigration should be restricted. I think these organizations rustle up money with appeals to 'remember your heritage', much like an Irish or Italian organization, and do their mischief.

The humanities are still full of this Marxist stupidity. I think it has to do with tenure--you get these old guys who grew up in the 60s when this was all new and cool and still run the academy. Science has to be tested.

Assistant Village Idiot said...

Anon 2:25, early on - Precisely. The failure to distinguish between legal and illegal immigration in discussions coming off the left puzzles me. Do they not hear the distinction because they believe it cannot possibly be real in the minds of their opponents, or do they just pretend not to hear it for rhetorical purposes? I have come to believe there is a real lack of insight, an inability to understand others, driving the misunderstanding. Some are deceitful, of course. But most, I fear, blithely assume evil and stupidity among those who would limit immigration, because any other possibility would cause them to look at themselves.

Assistant Village Idiot said...

BTW, lovely comment over there: Someone mentioned that Jews are accused of dual-loyalty, but in Beinart's case it's more like zero-loyalty. Wish I'd said that.

Anonymous said...

The YouTube link in Auntie Analogue's post is the famous one of attorney Lawrence Lebovitz proclaiming, "Our goal is clearly not to find a qualified US worker."

Follow the link or remember the firm's name: Cohen & Grigsby. Cohen and Grigsby -- Youtube it.

Big Bill said...

"What are Israel's borders by the way?"

Go to any Israeli Jew map (including all the government maps) on an Israeli website and "Israel" is marked as all the 1967 borders plus the West Bank (aka "Judea and Samaria"). I think some maps claim Gaza too.

I don't know when the Israeli Jews made the switchover to claiming all the territory as the State of Israel on their government and secular maps. It has certainly been since 1980.

Anonymous said...

SFG, you mean [Cultural] Marxist stupidity. It isn't even really Marxist, it's diversity uber alles.

Anonymous said...

the Cubans down in Florida are widely seen as traitors by the Latino Lobby because they oppose immigration of Nicaraguans and Dominicans to Miami and other Floridian cities. They are seen as bigger traitors because they will marry Anglos but would never marry Nicaraguans or Dominicans.

Anonymous said...

BTW, lovely comment over there: Someone mentioned that Jews are accused of dual-loyalty, but in Beinart's case it's more like zero-loyalty. Wish I'd said that.

I think it was Joe Sobran who said "Dual loyalty would be an improvement."

Anonymous said...

The failure to distinguish between legal and illegal immigration in discussions coming off the left puzzles.

It's a distinction without a difference. Both pose a threat to our economy, environment, and character.

Anonymous said...

Ellis island was far from the open doors, we love immigration mythology many believe. Immigrants were carefully screened and examined. A significant percentage (15-20%) were rejected out of hand and sent back. Others were detained for long periods. There was also no welfare or A.A. for immigrants either. "The United States has the need and the right to protect itself from the weak, the vicious and the ignorant or sickly alien and has taken effective efforts to ensure the public safety, disallowing the arrival of many foreigners". This was from a book I read written in 1924. It is also a hijacked myth from the open-doors lobby that the statue of liberty was some kind of celebration or monument to immigration. In reality it was a gift from France to celebrate the centenary of the declaration of independence. It had nothing to do with immigration at all. Had it been located in Boston, or D.C. or some other area it would have been harder for the open-doors lobby to kidnap it as a symbol for their own agenda.

Anonymous said...

If Jews actually are thinking more like Jewish-Americans as opposed to Jews, who just temporarily live in a country called the USA, that's great.

Its not that the Jews control everything, its they're the only ones with brains and passion when it comes to politics. The smart Goyim just want to make money and play golf.

Anonymous said...

It’s intriguing, and depressing, given that many Jews still valorize their Ellis Island roots.


I have nothing for or against Ellis Island and the immigrants who came through there. What does Ellis Island have to do with American immigration policy in the 21st century?

Reading Beinart (and other Jewish talking heads) I always wonder: "Where is that fantastic skill with words which Jews are supposed to possess?"

Because their arguments are usually specious and nonsensical.

Anonymous said...

They’re a lot less enthusiastic about immigration. A slight plurality opposes “the U.S. government making it possible for illegal immigrants to become U.S. citizens.”

Framing it as being about "illegal immigration" skews this. If you're asking them about whether they think illegal immigration is ok and should be rewarded with citizenship, you're not really just asking them about immigration. You're also asking them whether breaking the law is ok, shouldn't be punished, and should instead be rewarded.

Ask them about legal immigration. And to those that are against it, tell them that being against legal immigration could result in Jews having trouble legally immigrating into the US.

That would give us a better idea on their view of immigration.

Dennis Dale said...

Beinert's obliviousness to the welfare of his "anglo" co-citizens is comic. What a prick. There should be an award. And the douchebag goes to...

Anonymous said...

Had this conversation with a friend recently while we were discussing who would be voting in the next election and whether Romney had a chance.

I mentioned that O got 95% of the Black vote last time and 80% of the Jewish vote so those wre two groups he could probably depend on.

He said "that's impossible I know a lot of Jews who dislike Obama (my friend has a a lot of Jewish friends)." Then he said "maybe they said that because that's how they thought I felt."

I suppose there could something to his idea, a sort of Bradley type effect, where they don't want to seem too out of step with the rest of the White middle class.

If they vote for O and democratic in the same percentages in this next election that they have in the past, I suppose that would be at least some evidence that the notion that the rank and file Jews are becoming more patriotic and concerned with the well being of their White fellow citizens is just window dressing.

Also, as other posters have pointed an enormous amount of damage has already been done. My town is now 20% NAM versus 2% when I was growing up. As a kid we use to leave our houses and cars unlocked ... now we have home invasions, murders, and heroin busts. And the town cannot balance its budget, Sigh

Anonymous said...

Jews are morally nimble — they can adapt and flex their interpretation of any doctrine to suit what is “good for the Jews” — not through power of reason, but through the power of sophisticated rationalization in service of adaptive instinct.

Average Joe said...

I don't think it has anything to do with Jewish patriotism. The real reason is that many of the new immigrants hate Jews and aren't afraid to let people know it.

Dahinda said...

"In particular, Ellis Island Kitsch, while still going strong in the press, has to be getting a little old in real life."

That and the fact that most immigrants, including Jews, did not come into this country through Ellis Island. Ellis Island is only famous because it is New York. So the media elites in New York go on and on about it. Any good geneaologist can tell you that even during the 1880's to 1920's immigration period, just as many people were coming in to America through Boston, San Francisco, Baltimore, or even Canada.

Aaron in Israel said...

Are Jews more pro-immigration than gentiles? I mean, after controlling for income, education, geographic area, etc.? There must be someone around here that could answer that question, but I've never seen it posed, much less answered. For instance, are suburban, post-grad educated, Jewish-American professionals living in the northeastern US more pro-immigration than suburban, post-grad educated, gentile professionals living in the northeastern US? And similarly for other classes? If so, then by how much?

MQ said...

Because of the strong anti-semitic element on the far right, the role of the Jews in open border immigration has always been way exaggerated around here. The 1965 immigration act came from an alliance of all the non-WASP 'Ellis Island' ethnicities, with the Irish (in the form of the Kennedys and Senator Philip Hart) playing the lead role.

there's probably also a sense in which they simply figure that immigration has already dealt white america the fatal blow so no need for overkill, particularly now that the cost so obviously outruns the benefit.

This is a good example of real anti-semitism, as opposed to just noticing objective differences between ethnicities. The assumption is that the Jews act as a unified and effective conspiracy aimed at dealing a "fatal blow" to "white America". A scapegoat race on whom to blame everything you hate about your country. If you really believe that, the only logical response is either exile or extermination of the Jews.

CJ said...

Too complicated. It's simply sinking in on some of them that (a) Muslim immigration has some drawbacks for Jews and (b) there are a hell of a lot of people in the USA already.

Wade said...

I agree that's the obvious explanation for why average Jews aren't supporting immigration as much as leadership does.
But you're missing the point, Steve. When people like Beinhart say "if you can crack, the mystery of Jewish nativism, email us..." they're not asking for the common sense, real explanation --that's easy. What they're really wondering is, "What is it about leadership's current messaging that fails to inspire the masses? What message should we adopt to revitalize the masses' support for The Agenda?"

Your explanation insinuates that leadership's agenda is wrong. How dare you!

Matthew said...

As family members die off the power of memory wanes. The Holocaust will lose its power as Holocaust survivors die off. Ellis Island immigrants are 20+ years older than even that. That wave of immigration ended in 1924. Its youngest members are 88. Not only are most of them dead, but so are many of their children. Increasingly the only memory Jews will have, like most Anglo-Saxon whites, will be as Americans.

Evil Sandmich said...

My wacko nutjob guess is that American Jews tend to be fairly patriotic

That is pretty wacko. I wonder if American Jews are increasingly worried about coming to and end like that of Chandra Levy, and it is souring Jews on the idea that the more violent minorities will leave them alone (that and Israel being overrun by Africans isn't helping).

SFG said...

Another thing is that these organizations tend to take a bigger view, closer to the Kevin McDonald-predicted behavior, than ordinary citizens. National Jewish organizations would never call the Armenian genocide a genocide because they didn't want to annoy Turkey, up until now one of Israel's few friends in the region, but local Jewish organizations had no problem with it (they killed us too, right?)--it even created a small kerfluffle back in Massachusetts when the local ADL chapter started talking about the Armenian genocide, and the national ADL chapter didn't want them to.

Similarly, a lot of Jewish people I knew were sympathetic to Romney after the cool reception he was getting from evangelicals (religious prejudice, after all)--but no national organization's going to annoy the Democrats.

Sort of like the way Steve's documented that individual Hispanics aren't all that excited about unlimited immigration, but the national organizations want more people to give them money.

Joe Six-Pack said...

The Jewish/Israeli lobby in Washington is the only political force in this country that coulld stop 3rd-World immigration if they wanted...

Anonymous said...

"there's probably also a sense in which they simply figure that immigration has already dealt white america the fatal blow so no need for overkill, particularly now that the cost so obviously outruns the benefit."

This is a good example of real anti-semitism, as opposed to just noticing objective differences between ethnicities. The assumption is that the Jews act as a unified and effective conspiracy aimed at dealing a "fatal blow" to "white America".


How is that not the felt perception of an objective difference between ethnicities?

Is there any truth to it?

Anonymous said...

@Aaron in Israel

Are Jews more pro-immigration than gentiles? I mean, after controlling for income, education, geographic area, etc.?

A reasonable question. I suspect based on anecdotal experience that you would find a difference. But even if you didn't, you might still need to control for Jewish influence on others of a similar demographic, etc. In other words, the Jewish tendency could be influencing others in the same direction.

Have you spoken about immigration with Jewish Americans. In my experience, suggestions in the nature of "ending immigration" tend to be met with moral disapproval, a sort of "enemy eye," of the person voicing them by Jews, whereas Gentiles tend to react with simple bewilderment.

Whiskey said...

William1066 nailed it. Most Jews are deeply assimilating, and marrying out. To mostly but not exclusively other groups of Whites, and will of course be tax-farmed as high earners to pay for other people's children.

America as a "diverse" nation will NOT look like Brazil. Brazil has no welfare state. America would look like the Russian serf-state under Catherine, with the serfs being high IQ earners that are tax-farmed to support a mob underclass prone to various pogroms.

Jews can see Reginald Denny and easily picture themselves in that situation because they are ... WHITE. And they don't want to live in say, a variation of Indonesia.

Whiskey said...

Dennis Dale: You'd vote Beinart over Bill Gates? Or his harridan wife (clearly the impetus behind the Gates Foundation, never heard of Bill Gates being all that concerned with Black kids when he was running Microsoft).

Me, I'd vote Gates. Most damage. For the longest time.

SFG said...

Aaron raises an interesting point, and I'm not sure I know the answer. I think *politically oriented* Jews tend to be more pro-immigration... the ones I know who aren't particularly politically interested don't seem to be particularly pro-immigrant.

The problem is, of course, that Jews tend to be highly educated, live in big blue-state cities, have small families, etc., all of which tend to make people more pro-immigration. The correlation structure is kind of hard to tease out.

Interestingly, newly immigrated Russian Jews seem pretty right-wing, and don't like socialism (guess why!). anyone know how they feel about immigration?

Silver said...

This is a good example of real anti-semitism, as opposed to just noticing objective differences between ethnicities. The assumption is that the Jews act as a unified and effective conspiracy aimed at dealing a "fatal blow" to "white America". A scapegoat race on whom to blame everything you hate about your country. If you really believe that, the only logical response is either exile or extermination of the Jews.

LOL, what ludicrously overwrought nonsense. What a kook you are, MQ.

Imo, while Jews certainly played a central role in opening America and other countries to endless mass immigration, they do not NEED to have played such a role for my point to remain valid. They could have just cheered on immigration from the sidelines. It could have been 100% the work of "suicidal WASPs" and my point would remain. This is because Jews feared and disliked the whiteness of America (and Europe, and whites anywhere on earth, actually). There's no serious dispute about this. Jews admit to it all the time. But now that immigration and decades long brainwashing that accompanied it has cerated an America in which whites are clearly on the way out and which whites THEMSELVES regularly and enthusiastically pooh-pooh the idea that their racial existence has any value of itself at all, many Jews -- along with many other peoples -- probably figure that there's little point in totally swamping the country with bazillions of rather useless immigrants.

Skeptical Economist said...

The definitive statement on immigration and Jews is

"High Noon to Midnight - Why Current Immigration Policy Dooms American Jewry"

http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/back404.html

It's a very straightforwards statement of how mass immigration is destroying the country that has been a rather nice home for millions of Jews (and others).

The author basically takes the "What's good (bad) for the Jews?" position. However, he has no illusions about the what immigration is doing to everyone else.

Maya said...

"This is a good example of real anti-semitism, as opposed to just noticing objective differences between ethnicities. The assumption is that the Jews act as a unified and effective conspiracy aimed at dealing a "fatal blow" to "white America".

How is that not the felt perception of an objective difference between ethnicities?

Is there any truth to it?"

Is there any truth to what? That several million people who don't live in closed communities and most of whom don't even go to temple or care if they marry/have children with someone outside of this several million act as a strategic, unified force? I don't know. Maybe they have super powers and communicate telepathically. Could be that they are all actually one person, a shape shifter who can split into multiple bodies, and one day, when the central brain decides that it's time, they will get up at dawn, slit the throats of their Irish spouses and merge into one, ready to carry out our final doom.

Or perhaps, anyone who thinks that their local department store manager and the nurse anesthesiologist from their last surgery are a part of some evil club and care more about Israel than they do about their own home town is certifiably paranoid and could benefit from the fine products of big pharma...

Anonymous said...

Or perhaps, anyone who thinks that their local department store manager and the nurse anesthesiologist from their last surgery are a part of some evil club and care more about Israel than they do about their own home town is certifiably paranoid and could benefit from the fine products of big pharma...

Ah, but what do the data actually say about the attitude of Jewish Americans toward Israel? Would Jewish Americans vote for a candidate that advocated for a referendum in all of Palestine so that all its residents could vote for elected representatives?

Anonymous said...

Aaron raises an interesting point, and I'm not sure I know the answer. I think *politically oriented* Jews tend to be more pro-immigration... the ones I know who aren't particularly politically interested don't seem to be particularly pro-immigrant.

Yet they do not oppose immigration and in fact are somewhat pro-"immigrant"? Why don't the disfavor immigration?

The problem is, of course, that Jews tend to be highly educated, live in big blue-state cities, have small families, etc., all of which tend to make people more pro-immigration.

These things make people more pro-immigration? Evidence?

The correlation structure is kind of hard to tease out.

It shouldn't be that difficult. A lot of Jews live in smaller cities and towns, even in red states.

Anonymous said...

Does it really make sense to completely distinguish between a group and its leaders? A consistency of leadership that persists over time and across different spaces must have significant support of the group.

IHTG said...

Interestingly, newly immigrated Russian Jews seem pretty right-wing, and don't like socialism (guess why!). anyone know how they feel about immigration?

They're probably pro-immigration, but wouldn't give a fuck if it was restricted to whites-only immigration.

Anonymous said...

"If you really believe that, the only logical response is either exile or extermination of the Jews."

Oh, stop with the drama-queen histrionics.

All that's necessary is correct the Jewish overrepresentation in media, academia, finance and gov't down to their percentage of the population, or less.

Byzantine Empire had it figured out.

Anonymous said...

"Is there any truth to it?"

Is there any truth to what?


To this:

a. That Jews are taught (through annual rituals and otherwise) to distrust and fear non-Jews.

b. That Jews fear Europeans acting self-consciously as Europeans. This is a fear that is sharpened by the constant retelling of and dwelling upon World War II. That is only one example. See Philip Roth's book that envisions white Americans turning Jewish Americans.

c. That immigration helps to weaken white Americans' political power and sense of unity and identity and therefore their ability to act in concert.

d. That many Jews fear assimilation and intermarriage with white Americans (even more than they fear conjured hostility from white Americans).

e. That immigration can diminish the inclination to intermarry with white Americans by (1) diminishing the power of white Americans, (2) otherwise make non-Jewish society in America less appealing (for example, less successful, more dysfunctional), and (3) leaving someone who doesn't intermarry with less of an outsider status (lots and lots of different groups; lots and lots of people not intermarrying; atomization into various groups becomes the norm).

f. That Jews are human and intelligent and are aware of c & e at some level, consciously or instinctively.

What of the above do you disagree with?

Anonymous said...

I don't care much for most of "Truth"s comments but comment threads like this one ought to offer people who are regarded as American Jews some insight into Truth's mindset. The fact of course is that there are millions of IWSBs in this country and each and every one of them would rightly be disgusted and frightened by how most people here (Jews included) regard "Black people".

See, just as you don't like it when people cherrypick every negative thing they possibly can from every Jewish person and then construct a McDonaldian narrative, IWSBs don't feel particularly comfortble when people do that about blacks.

Sure, the statistical odds may be different (controlling for other factors black Americans still have higher incidents of violent crime while Aaron-in-Israel's query has hardly been studied at all) but the principle is the same. Most Americans don't considerf themselves primarily as "black", "jewish", "white", "old", "middle class", etc. They are... their name, themselves. Other labels are descriptors they may feel comfortable with to some degree or another but they want to be viewed as just, Lamar or Steve or Shoshana or Siobhan.

The many Jews on this forum who take right and proper umbrage at how they're often treated and viewed on the alt-right may enjoy the novelty of realizing that many blacks feel quite similarly.

None of this is to say that Jews aren't wildly overrepresented among the elite and the elite (in practically all times and places) are engaged in a conspiracy against everyone else but it is to say that some random Goldstein stocking shelves in Bushwick ain't to blame for that and that not only does he deserve your sympathy for the (albeit slight) discomfort of antisemitism when he writes at Mangan's or whatever but that his morally-normal manager Mr Washington who oversees the stocking is deserving of empathy for the (albeit statistically rational) looks of distrust he encounters on the sidewalk every day.

Evil Sandmich said...

Along these lines, I wonder if Schumer's "ex-patriot" act would get as much play if it had an additional rider that banned dual citizenship.

Maya said...

"a. That Jews are taught (through annual rituals and otherwise) to distrust and fear non-Jews"

IMHO, this is false. From what I observe, most Jews don't go to temple even on high holidays, and their holiday rituals consist of eating, eating, eating, skipping school because they have an excuse and receiving money from older relatives. I know a bunch of people my age who took advantage of the free Birthright Trip to Israel, and they all viewed it as a free vacation with a catch that you have to sit through one boring speech about Israel and jewishness or something. In fact, those who offer this trip know the score. They now offer many different types of Birthright: for nature lovers, for history buffs, for clubbers and partiers, for extreme adventurers and so on, because young people stopped signing up for the original Birthright trip, at some point.

Also, it almost seems as though young American Jews are trying to marry someone non Jewish, nowadays. Young Jews also move freely around the country, unconcerned whether a certain location has an established Jewish community. They seem to care about climate, school districts, music scene, sports teams, crime and the number of quirky restaurants a lot more than they do about how far is the nearest JCC when accepting job offers or choosing grad schools.

"That Jews fear Europeans acting self-consciously as Europeans. This is a fear that is sharpened by the constant retelling of and dwelling upon World War II. That is only one example. See Philip Roth's book that envisions white Americans turning Jewish Americans. "

Again in my very HO, this is also false. Visit the medieval and renaissance studies department in your nearest elite or fairly large university, and you're likely to come upon a large number of Jews, masturbating over dead Celtic languages and arguing about the merits of Dutch vs Italian art. Also, please, attend the next Oktoberfest in or near a large metro area to witness many a Jew enjoying German culture. Ditto the Renaissance fair. I got my ticket to see Lord of the Dance from a group of Jews who bought, like, a hundred of them 6 months in advance and were so excited they could pee themselves.
However, if what you mean is that most Jews don't seem supportive of a white pride movement, I'd have to agree. But then, I dare you to find me one ethnic group whose middle class members, generally, support the idea of white pride.

Aaron in Israel said...

Heh heh, that Oktoberfest comment brings back the memories. My parents (Jewish) used to take me to those when I was a kid, I guess for the vibrant ethnic experience. One year they even bought me a pair of Lederhosen there; I wore them to kindergarten the next day. I looked so cute in them!

Got dragged to a Renaissance Faire once by my brother (Jewish) and his wife (not Jewish). They're both liberals and both anti-immigration, by the way. If only Jews were more anti-white, I could have been spared that experience!

And what is it with Lord of the Dance, anyway? My ex-mother-in-law (Jewish) is a big fan. She was really excited when she went with all her Jewish friends to see them (in Israel). I guess nobody told her they were white.

Aaron in Israel said...

Regarding a comment about Jews supposedly not opposing immigration: Jewish-Americans by a large majority want to reduce immigration. Not by as large a majority as Americans overall, but by a large majority. That's from data that was posted at alternativeright.com.

Aaron in Israel said...

To answer a question: I haven't known many Jews in America other than my family, so I haven't spoken with many about immigration. Once my brother, a self-described liberal, was ranting about all the problems caused by "illegal immigration." When I pointed out that what he was saying applied to legal immigration, too, he paused for a moment and said, "Yeah, I guess it does." That's practically the extent of my anecdotal experience.

ben tillman said...

Are Jews more pro-immigration than gentiles? I mean, after controlling for income, education, geographic area, etc.? There must be someone around here that could answer that question, but I've never seen it posed, much less answered.

That's because it doesn't make sense to control for those things.

ben tillman said...

This is a good example of real anti-semitism, as opposed to just noticing objective differences between ethnicities. The assumption is that the Jews act as a unified and effective conspiracy aimed at dealing a "fatal blow" to "white America".

It's not an assumption; it's something that some Jews like Earl Raab have explicitly stated.

Anonymous said...

HERE IS THE POLL ON RELIGION AND IMMIGRATION FROM CENTER FOR IMMIGRATION STUDIES. JEWS ARE FAR MORE LIBERAL ON IMMIGRATION THAN CHRISTIANS.


http://cis.org/ReligionAndImmigrationPoll

ATBOTL said...

Methodist elites and Jewish elites. That's a good analogy.

Maya said...

"This is a good example of real anti-semitism, as opposed to just noticing objective differences between ethnicities. The assumption is that the Jews act as a unified and effective conspiracy aimed at dealing a "fatal blow" to "white America".

It's not an assumption; it's something that some Jews like Earl Raab have explicitly stated."

Do you not see the logical fallacy of your response? You are going in circles. You are relying on some Jew named Earl Raab to support your assertion that all Jews act in unison. But Raab's statement that all Jews are waiting to pounce, or whatever, can be seen as actual evidence only if you already believe that all Jews think the same. It's like believing in God because the bible tells you to while believing what's in the bible because that's what God commands.

How about considering what would make the most sense. How do you think this unified Jewry acting as a single purpose fist thing actually works? Yes, powerful Jews are way over represented in Hollywood, politics and on Wall Street, and, probably, in large part due to nepotism and the inner club favor exchanges, but what does that small percentage of Jewish American population have to do with your regular rank and file Jews? Do you think Aaron Nobodystein from Cleveland can walk into a Hollywood studio and say, "Hi, I have a big nose and my great grandmother died in the Holocaust. Can I get a showbiz job now, please?" with good results? Why do you think that Becca Nobodynovich would have more loyalty towards her supposedly co-ethnic elites who do absolutely nothing to improve her situation and wouldn't have anything to do with her than she would towards her classmates, neighbors and coworkers? I think it makes sense that the regular American Jews care more about their own prospects in life and their own home towns than they do about some nebulous idea of common Jewish goals that don't help them to accomplish their own personal objectives.

Anonymous said...

Basically, to summarize most of the comments, two things:

1) The average Jew is intelligent enough to know that allowing too many non-productive, low IQ people into this country would not be a good thing.

2)The average immigrant is NOT sympathetic to the Jewish cause in general, and many are openly hostile toward it.

Anonymous said...

Maya, among all people, it is not the average or majority that control access, perception, government, economy, etc..., but rather the few among them. A Jew may not get to make a Hollywood movie, however, there are a plethora of opportunities associated with that industry that are quite lucrative that they may have greater access to because they are Jewish. Same thing with politics and Wall Street.

Anonymous said...

Maya
"I think it makes sense that the regular American Jews care more about their own prospects in life and their own home towns than they do about some nebulous idea of common Jewish goals that don't help them to accomplish their own personal objectives."

Except Jews vote in the same way blacks and hispanics do.

Therefore...

blindingly obviously

...Jews must see "common Jewish goals" as somehow related to "their own [individual] prospects in life."

The handful that say they don't spend all their time defending their co-ethnics which is comes to the same thing.

MQ said...

All that's necessary is correct the Jewish overrepresentation in media, academia, finance and gov't down to their percentage of the population, or less.

Finally, isteve commenters come out in favor of employment quotas! I assume you also support quotas on the number of white Christian males in executive positions, blacks in the NBA, etc.? Or is there a unique need to handicap Jews?

That immigration can diminish the inclination to intermarry with white Americans by (1) diminishing the power of white Americans, (2) otherwise make non-Jewish society in America less appealing (for example, less successful, more dysfunctional), and (3) leaving someone who doesn't intermarry with less of an outsider status (lots and lots of different groups; lots and lots of people not intermarrying; atomization into various groups becomes the norm).

Every one of the assumptions in the list here was highly questionable at best, for reasons well stated by Maya, but this one is particularly bizarre. It's very strange to suppose that Jewish-Americans would want to make their country 'less successful and more dysfunctional' because of this extremely tenuous and far-fetched line of logic. The general state of the country has an immediate and direct impact on Jewish-American quality of life; living in an unsuccessful and dysfunctional country is no fun for anybody. Obviously living in a well-functioning country is going to be much more in Jewish-American interests than some kind of extremely indirect connection to 'diminishing the appeal of intermarriage'...especially since intermarriage is something Jewish-Americans are demonstrably very happy to do.

It's funny how many purveyors of internet anti-semitism seem to think of themselves as bold truth-tellers who are noticing plain facts, when from the outside it's clear that they're making bizarre logical leaps that are unjustified by any external evidence. It's driven by projection of an internal need for a scapegoat to blame or some form of resentment.


See, just as you don't like it when people cherrypick every negative thing they possibly can from every Jewish person and then construct a McDonaldian narrative, IWSBs don't feel particularly comfortble when people do that about blacks.

Quite true, and this is the general problem with racism and stereotyping.

Maya said...

"Except Jews vote in the same way blacks and hispanics do."

B.S. The majority of the American Jews are SWPLs, so they vote for the same candidates as all the other SWLs. Hipster Jews behave like hipsters. Yuppie Jews do as other yuppies. And their older, richer uncles who live in the most expensive suburbs and tell them, "You'll think differently when you're older and wiser" do as most of the other such uncles and vote Republican. From what i can tell, the only reason Jews seem to be more liberally inclined than their Irish, English or Italian peers is that they are more likely to receive an education and live a white middle class lifestyle, with white middle class values. Oh, and they are less likely to see religion as an important part of their lives. Show me ONE ethnicity in America whose middle class, non religious members aren't overwhelmingly liberal minded.

Maya said...

" A Jew may not get to make a Hollywood movie, however, there are a plethora of opportunities associated with that industry that are quite lucrative that they may have greater access to because they are Jewish. Same thing with politics and Wall Street."

I don't know if this is quite true. I think a large number of Jews is being maintained in these areas through nepotism and favors exchanged between the powerful Jews of various industries, not by a general preference for kids named Jacob Rubin over kids named Chris Miller. BUT, even if we were to take it as a given that a Jacob will always be chosen over Chris, that still wouldn't grant access to the majority of Jewish people who'd like a spot in Hollywood/Washington/Wall Street. There isn't a plethora of jobs in Hollywood, not when you compare it to the demand for these jobs, even exclusively Jewish demand. There are tens of thousands of applicants for every sound design/writing/PR/entertainment law/accounting job in the show business. So even if only Jewish grads had access to these job, the vast majority of them would still not have a chance in hell, and it would still make more sense for them to care more about their prospects in their home towns (and general quality of life in their home country) than about some abstract Jewish unity.

Google Sucks said...

Nice job omitting Emanuel Celler from his very own 1965 Immigration Act.

See, when Cortez conquered the Aztecs by forming alliances and applying divide & conquer strategies we still don't lose sight of the fact that CORTEZ WAS THE INSTIGATOR.

But when Jews like Celler act like Cortez the narrative is always about the useful idiots duped into cynical alliances offered up at the time.

See, it was the Irish in 1965 who so deeply wanted a future non-white America. See, dummy? Watch the birdie. And just remember it wasn't the Jews and their reps in Congress.

Anonymous said...

Maya

I understand the need for comment moderation but it makes it impossible to argue with your (self-serving and dishonest)nonsense.

One last short try

"B.S. The majority of the American Jews are SWPLs"

Jews were the same in 1880 and 1924 and 1965. No SWPLs then.

Maya said...

"Maya

I understand the need for comment moderation but it makes it impossible to argue with your (self-serving and dishonest)nonsense.

One last short try

"B.S. The majority of the American Jews are SWPLs"

Jews were the same in 1880 and 1924 and 1965. No SWPLs then."

I haven't lived then, so I can't comment on what Jews were like in 1924, 1880, or 325. (Though, they do sound like real assholes in biblical times. Actually, everyone comes off as real jerks in the bible, but I digress.) I'm merely commenting on the people who seem to be present in very large quantities wherever I go.

And what do you mean by "dishonest and self-serving"? Are you saying that the unified Jewish forces might reward me with opportunity and prosperity if I make enough posts about how I don't think that they are all dark wizards/ alien lizards with superpowers? Could that really work? In that case: I looooove the Jews! Are you listening, uncle Saul? Mr. Levin, Sir? I'm totally submissi
ve and compliant here! I'll name my kids Shlomo, Smuley and Miriam! Please give me:
- An acceptance into an elite humanities Ph.D. program, with funding and a guaranteed full time position in a community college/shitty university, near a city of my choice upon graduation or
- A well paying teaching job in a pleasant, well performing school, in a city of my choice and
- A super lucrative job offer for my fiance in a city of our choice, so I wouldn't even have to work
- A horse with paid care
- A balalaika
- A Celtic guitar
- A new snowboard
- A pair of new cross country skis
- More formal dance lessons and a bunch of dance outfits and
-A bunch of ridiculous kitchen equipment!

Hava Nagilla, Hava Nagilla! (Fingers crossed.)

P. S. My man is fine with his son being named Shlomo, but he wants an unlimited supply of games, a new bike, all the same winter sports equipment as moi, lingerie and a new camera, in addition to that super lucrative job offer.

Anonymous said...

Maybe they have super powers and communicate telepathically. Could be that they are all actually one person, a shape shifter who can split into multiple bodies, and one day, when the central brain decides that it's time, they will get up at dawn, slit the throats of their Irish spouses and merge into one, ready to carry out our final doom.

I'm somewhat skeptical, but will keep an eye out for further evidence, pro and con.

Cennbeorc

Anonymous said...

From what i can tell, the only reason Jews seem to be more liberally inclined than their Irish, English or Italian peers is that they are more likely to receive an education and live a white middle class lifestyle, with white middle class values.

There must be stats on this. Any GSS mavens in the house?

I don't think it's impossible that Jews are more "liberal" than their education, income, etc. would suggest.

I don't buy into Kevin Macdonald-esc theories about the Jewish Borg, but I do think that the Jewish aversion to white Evangelicals is an established fact. This makes me receptive to the notion that Jews strongly prefer a multi-racial, secular America to a white, Christian America, and their political choices may reflect this.

Cennbeorc

Svigor said...

[i]"Also its hard to say israel for the jews, American for everyone. Too much cognitive dissonance for that to be too stable."

Hard for whom? Do you encounter Jews who struggle with this hypocrisy? Beinart doesn't appear to have any problem with it at all. He wrings his hands that Jews might oppose illegal infiltrators to the United States while he proclaims that sanctity of a "Jewish State" in Israel.[/i]

Yeah, I'm not seeing the struggle there. Jews seem pretty devoid of the tendency for group introspection or self-criticism. So they tend not to even notice the hypocrisy. And if someone waves it under their noses, well, that's just "ANTI-SEMITISM!!!" And pointing out the self-serving convenience of all this is "ANTI-SEMITISM!!!" too.

We don't even see Jews HERE struggling with it. I bring it up a lot, and it the Jewish response is either crickets, or defenses of Jewish behavior ranging from spurious to outright insulting.

Its not that the Jews control everything, its they're the only ones with brains and passion when it comes to politics. The smart Goyim just want to make money and play golf.

While I might not put it like that, I have to agree with the general thrust of that statement. One way to get smart Whites interested is to point out what smart Jews are doing in politics.

Because of the strong anti-semitic element on the far right, the role of the Jews in open border immigration has always been way exaggerated around here. The 1965 immigration act came from an alliance of all the non-WASP 'Ellis Island' ethnicities, with the Irish (in the form of the Kennedys and Senator Philip Hart) playing the lead role

Jews formed the vanguard for the 1965 act. Btw, it's cute how quick Jews are to cry "anti-Semitism" when blamed for something, then point the finger at another group like the Irish or the Italians.

"there's probably also a sense in which they simply figure that immigration has already dealt white america the fatal blow so no need for overkill, particularly now that the cost so obviously outruns the benefit."

This is a good example of real anti-semitism, as opposed to just noticing objective differences between ethnicities. The assumption is that the Jews act as a unified and effective conspiracy aimed at dealing a "fatal blow" to "white America". A scapegoat race on whom to blame everything you hate about your country. If you really believe that, the only logical response is either exile or extermination of the Jews.


This is a good example of how straw man arguments work. Key words and ideas for this particular straw man include "monolithic," "unified," "conspiracy," "blame everything," etc.

Mind-reading about extermination is the cherry on top, of course. Projection, I suppose (Jews have a pretty solid, if intermittent, history of genocide against others, not to mention their strong ethnocentrism).

Israel being overrun by Africans

That this idea has legs is informative.

SFG 6/6/12 10:46 AM

I have a lot of sympathy for this position. American Jews should throw their leadership overboard ASAP. Trouble is, the new boss tends to be just like the old boss. It's not like he springs from the eye of Zeus.

I'd have more sympathy for the "if you control for wealth, Jews are" thing if Israeli Jews weren't far to the right of American Jews, American Whites, American Jewish elites, American White elites, American Jews and Israeli Jews weren't bosom buddies, etc.

Anonymous said...

Is there any significant media that isn't run or owned by elite jews? and if so, is it being hassled by the SEC, FCC, etc. or being solicited by Goldman for purchase by Time Warner? Concentration within the media used to be a major concern. When and why did limits on consolidation and ownership go out the window? is the non-news media more pernicious than the news media in shaping values and culture along an east coast establishment line. Do racial preferences determine attendance in plumb prep schools, investment banks, the pr/ad industry, the media, etc.?