July 30, 2012

Associated Press: "U.S. Sees Israel, Tight Mideast Ally, as Spy Threat"

From the AP:
WASHINGTON (AP) -- The CIA station chief opened the locked box containing the sensitive equipment he used from his home in Tel Aviv, Israel, to communicate with CIA headquarters in Virginia, only to find that someone had tampered with it. He sent word to his superiors about the break-in. 
The incident, described by three former senior U.S. intelligence officials, might have been dismissed as just another cloak-and-dagger incident in the world of international espionage, except that the same thing had happened to the previous station chief in Israel. 
It was a not-so-subtle reminder that, even in a country friendly to the United States, the CIA was itself being watched. 
In a separate episode, according to another two former U.S. officials, a CIA officer in Israel came home to find the food in the refrigerator had been rearranged. In all the cases, the U.S. government believes Israel's security services were responsible. 
Such meddling underscores what is widely known but rarely discussed outside intelligence circles: Despite inarguable ties between the U.S. and its closest ally in the Middle East and despite statements from U.S. politicians trumpeting the friendship, U.S. national security officials consider Israel to be, at times, a frustrating ally and a genuine counterintelligence threat. 
In addition to what the former U.S. officials described as intrusions in homes in the past decade, Israel has been implicated in U.S. criminal espionage cases and disciplinary proceedings against CIA officers and blamed in the presumed death of an important spy in Syria for the CIA during the administration of President George W. Bush. 
The CIA considers Israel its No. 1 counterintelligence threat in the agency's Near East Division, the group that oversees spying across the Middle East, according to current and former officials. Counterintelligence is the art of protecting national secrets from spies. This means the CIA believes that U.S. national secrets are safer from other Middle Eastern governments than from Israel.

This kind of stuff tends to get shoved down the memory hole -- literally, in the case of Carl Cameron's five-part series on Fox News in November 2001, which was quickly deleted. (Fortunately, a number of citizens recorded it and you can find it here and there: here's Part I).

For some perspective on the AP article, here's a blog post at XX Committee (for an explanation of the historical reference, see here) by a professor at the Naval War College who was in counter-intelligence:

Aggressive Israeli spying on the U.S. is something polite people are never, ever supposed to discuss; mentioning it will not get you invited to the right Georgetown parties.
But there was nothing in the piece which was exactly news to anyone who knows how the global intelligence game is actually played. That CIA considers Israel to be the number-one spy threat in the Middle East is a revelation only to neophytes. Counterintelligence officers for decades have been aware of the extent of Israeli espionage against the U.S., at home and abroad, though politicos are customarily wise enough to never mention it. Indeed, CI experts for years have spoken of the Big Four threats to the USG: Russia, China, Cuba, and Israel.  

I prefer my spies to look like this …
Russia remains as big a spy threat to the West and the U.S. as it was at the height of the Cold War. Their operations are as aggressive as ever, and their playbook is the same. Although the round-up of a bigRussian illegal network in the U.S. two years ago was treated as a comic-opera affair in the media, with emphasis on hot redheads (and, let me say, who doesn’t like hot redheaded spy-vixens?), that story justifiably caused deep concern in CI circles and indicated big problems, including possible penetrations of U.S. intelligence.
The Chinese spy threat is less popularly understood, and there is a lot less written about it, with some happy exceptions, but Beijing’s espionage against the USG has risen in recent years and shows no signs of abating, rather the contrary. That said, Chinese HUMINT operations are seldom successful outside their ethnic millieu – though that may be cold comfort given the size of the overseas Chinese community in the West today.
The inclusion of Cuba on the Big Four list may surprise, given the comically pathetic condition of that country, but Havana’s intelligence agencies have long punched above their weight in the global spy game. Cuban operations against the USG are widespread and pernicious, including long-term penetrations of our intelligence agencies. Castro’s case officers for decades have had no trouble recruiting spies among Cuban exiles – usually they have more volunteers than they can handle – and Cuban-American groups are deeply penetrated (usually the crazier and more right-wing an exile pontificates, the more likely s/he is a mole for Havana). Not surprisingly, Florida is a hotspot for Cuban espionage. Neverthless, like the Chinese, the Cubans operate best among ethnic kin, save the occasional oddball lefty Anglos who actually lose money spying for Cuba.
The Israeli espionage threat to the United States, however, is different, because DC and Tel Aviv are such close partners, and Israel is the world’s biggest recipient of American aid dollars.  In the real world, allies do spy on each other. Per the counterspy’s mantra: There are no friendly intelligence agencies. Yet America’s closest intelligence partners, the Five Eyes of the Anglosphere(U.S., U.K., Canada, Australia, and usually New Zealand), have preserved a remarkable amount of the sincere spy-friendship borne of shared hardship in World War II, and come pretty close to being friends who don’t spy on each other.

Not like this.
Israel emphatically is not that sort of spy-buddy. The AP article included glimpses of just how aggressive and duplicitous Israeli HUMINT operations against American interests actually are, and have been for decades. Anyone who has looked closely at the infamous Pollard case, including Israel’s continuing lobbying to get their boy out of his jail cell, gets some sense of how the Israelis play the game.
It’s no secret inside the Beltway that Israel spies on everybody, America included, and uses its close partnership with the USG to further its espionage against it. None of this is new, and as far back as 1954 Israeli dirty tricks targeted the U.S., including the false-flag bombing of the U.S. Information Agency office in Egypt, the so-called Lavon affair. Espionage is a messy business, to be sure, but what sets the Israelis apart is that they act so aggressively even towards their closest friends.
One thing that's interesting about U.S. politics is that the size of the bribes (at least of the folks who get caught) tends to be paltry (e.g., $90,000 in a Congressman's freezers relative to how rich politicians can get in, say, Mexico or Russia. (Here's Putin's Palace, which, I must admit, is in surprisingly good 18th Century taste. I suspect Putin sees himself as a 21st Century Enlightened Despot.) 

If the carrots aren't terribly large in America, maybe the sticks are bigger. We're a fairly moralistic country, so maybe our politicians are best controlled by fear of having their scandals leaked. Carl Cameron devoted some of his lost series to how Israeli companies control a lot of the market in America for communication software and it wouldn't be too hard to build into the software backdoors for Israeli intelligence to use. But, that's just speculation.

My old articles are archived at iSteve.com -- Steve Sailer

190 comments:

sabril said...

"DC and Tel Aviv are such close partners"

Tel Aviv is not the capital of Israel. If an article refers to Israel in this way, it's a pretty good bet that the author hates hates hates Israel and is very biased against Israel.

Dave in Seattle said...

After the Pollard affair and the attack on the USS Liberty I don't see how any US citizen or elected representative can consider Israel as anything but a dangerous and unreliable nation-like North Korea but with far better PR people.

The constant, aggressive spying and the grating interference in our national affairs and yet we continue to shovel billions at them. It makes some of our other idiotic policies like the war on drugs or the Vietnam war seem half rational. It's as if our elite don't have our national interest at heart and an unnamed, powerful minority's interest is really what's important. Any fool who says this out loud is labeled a "conspiracy theorist." If you mention that you don't want US tax dollars funding Israeli soldiers and weapons mowing down Palestinian civilians in their own homes, well you're just a raving anti-semite as well as a conspiracy theorist.

Anonymous said...

"Tel Aviv is not the capital of Israel. "

Much of Jerusalem is occupied Palestinian territory captured by Israel in the 1967 war. Israel signed the Geneva Convention and cannot legally annex conquered territory. Until this question is properly resolved official US policy is that Jerusalem is not the capital of Israel and that Jerusalem should be the capital both of Palestine and Israel
Robert Hume

IHTG said...

Here's a question - is America's pro-Israelism a "feature", or a "bug"?

The USA is, in general, a crusader for global liberalism and against ethno-statehood. Yet it is not against Israel, which is a shining example to the world of often illiberal ethno-statehood.

Anti-Zionists and anti-Semites see this as evidence of Jewish domination. That this double standard is all part of the plan.
I see it as a happy exception - at least the US is doing one thing right!

Anonymous said...

Commenters use the term Scots-Irish often. I always suspect that they are afraid of triggering alarms on secret web filters. The one run by you-know-who.

The Pentagon said...

Hook me up with the redhead, and I'll sing like a canary!

BOO-YAH!!!

Anonymous said...

Steve -

To me, the interesting thing is not so much the contents of the story as it is the question of who at the Associated Press would have

A) Had this story prepped, written, and ready to go, and

B) Would have authorized the release of this story to the general public in the first place.

Somebody does NOT like all this attention that Mitt Romney is paying to Israel, and we need to try to figure out who that somebody is.

The obvious answer would be Axelrod - maybe he thinks that this story will significantly weaken Romney's support in the GOP base, and therefore might cause Romney to pull back from all of his Jewish outreach?

dearieme said...

As I've said before, the key question about what it is that O is hiding about his birth (and much of his later life) isn't what's hidden, but who knows about it and what they are doing with that info.

Anonymous said...

"CI experts for years have spoken of the Big Four threats to the USG: Russia, China, Cuba, and Israel."

That list should have another "friendly" country on it.

France.

Anonymous said...

Meanwhile, Romney is fundraising in Israel. He and Obama seem to be in a bidding war as to who can claim to be willing to do the most for Israel. Israelis don't vote in our elections, do they?

Ted said...

Speaking of gov't nonsense, Steve, I was surprised you didn't notice Obama's recent diktat to require schools to penalize white and black students equally:

http://nation.foxnews.com/obama/2012/07/27/president-obama-backs-race-based-school-discipline-policies

Since black students are getting suspended and expelled at higher rates than white and asian kids, it must be the work of racist evil white bigot teachers (nevermind that most are hopelessly liberal). It couldn't possibly be the more rational Ockham's razor answer that blacks are causing more trouble which leads them to get punished more.

So because blacks cause more trouble and therefore get punished more, because we are all equal, which means we must all have equal outcomes regardless of inputs, to keep the numbers of punishments in parity between blacks and everyone else, a white kid who tells a fart joke in school should get suspended for a week while a black kid who beats the hell out of an asian nerd should get a warning.

What the h*ll is this teaching our children? Imagine this occurred with adults. You get caught jaywalking and get tossed in jail for a week while a black mugger gets a $100 fine for what he does.

Obama is just pulling more and more insane liberal nonsense out of his a** every week. What's coming in August- 'All whites must move out of their homes and turn the keys over to a black guy because blacks tend to live in lower class homes' ?

Anonymous said...

Carl Cameron devoted some of his lost series to how Israeli companies control a lot of the market in America for communication software and it wouldn't be too hard to build into the software backdoors for Israeli intelligence to use. But, that's just speculation.

It's not just speculation. It's true. And it's not just communication software. It's also things like video surveillance. They have a lock on video surveillance software worldwide.

Anonymous said...

Has Israel been successful in finding help outside of its ethnic milieu?

Anonymous said...

“Jews sent President Truman letter bombs, book tells.”

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1951&dat=19721201&id=s00xAAAAIBAJ&sjid=AeIFAAAAIBAJ&pg=2264,343939

Anonymous said...

The CIA has a section chief in Tel Aviv? And he's annoyed that the people he's there to spy on are spying on him?

Israel is far from the largest recipient of US aid. The champs there are Germany, S.Korea, Japan and every other place the US has kept an army for the last 65 years. Israel, in contrast, has always defended itself.

Anonymous said...

This kind of stuff tends to get shoved down the memory hole -- literally, in the case of Carl Cameron's five-part series on Fox News in November 2001, which was quickly deleted.

I remember that. That was some intrepid reporting. It was disappeared pretty suddenly. Cameron still pops up on Fox News but covers pretty mundane political stuff now.

Anonymous said...

Our embassy is in Tel Aviv. That's all I need to know, sabril.

Anonymous said...

This is where TV gives "neophytes" a leg up.

Between 24, Numbers, and NCIS, none of this really surprises me in the least!

NOTA said...

Romney has been visiting Israel, partly to raise money. It's unseemly as hell, but a guy who can pretend to like fundamentailst Christians who think he's the next best thing to a witch, and can pretend to take the Republican deficit hawks seriously even though almost none of them cared about deficits when their party was in power, can also pretend to deeply love Israel, if that brings in the votes and the donations. Presumably he has already explained that the Castro regime is a threat to the US (eliminating the pointless embargo would threaten all-important strategic goals like getting the Cuban vote in Florida). I'd call him a whore, but that would insult honest working girls everywhere.

Londoner said...

Remember the dancing Israelis after 9/11? They've been pretty thoroughly memory-holed too.

That + USS Liberty = Israel being much more than just a spy threat to the USA.

Grumpy Old Man said...

The US is an ally of Israel. Israel is not an ally of the US.

Anonymous said...

You misunderstand Steve.
The lucrative directorships in Wall Street come after the hired politico has done his dirty work - and come these directorships (basically mega bucks for sitting at a board table, making affirmative noises and passing gas)surely do. That's the name of the game a nice little earner at Goldman Sachs or Morgan Stanley in exchange for repealing Glass-Steagal and destroying the world economy.
Instead of watching porn star sex on the internet (like the peasnts do), the dirty politicoes actually get to participate with the huge number of porn whores who 'do the privates' (no pun intended, this is the trade lingo, cunning or not). A potent reward, 'Heaven as it is on Earth' as a backwards 'Lord's prayer' might put it.
If you don't believe me, look at Eliott Spritzer, (if you're tired of the smutty school boy porns, 'spritz' is actually German for something else).

anony-mouse said...

1/ If the CIA has a station chief in Tel Aviv I see nothing wrong with the Israelis spying on him there. That would be internal counterintelligence. I assume that the local CIA station chiefs anywhere are being spied upon by the local spy agency's counterintelligence-and that would include London, Ottawa, Canberra, etc., or for that matter any country receiving US aid.

And if that local CIA station chief is surprised at being spied on he should be replaced.

2/ The Lavon affair mentioned there had nothing to do with the US

3/ Anyone who doesn't know about Israel having spied on the US ('down the memory hole') hasn't heard of Jonathan Pollard. And if someone hasn't heard about Pollard they aren't paying attention to anything.

4/ Jerusalem has been the capital of Israel since at least 1949 when the Knesset first met there (as now, 100% inside the green line). 1949 comes before 1967.

Anonymous said...

http://www.bostonherald.com/entertainment/movies/general/view/20120730chris_marker_famed_director_of_la_jetee_dies_at_91/srvc=home&position=recent

Jonathan Silber said...

Might not Israel likewise, and with good reason, consider the United States "a frustrating ally and a genuine counterintelligence threat?"

Or should the conduct of the Obama administration inspire among Israelis confidence in its dependability as an ally?

Anonymous said...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/film/2012/jul/30/chris-marker?newsfeed=true

Anonymous said...

Ther was a large israeli spy network shadowing the 9/11 high-jackers... I don't see anything happening about this, they got America by the balls.

Mr. Anon said...

"sabril said..."

And the very first post is by a designated Israeli shill.

Mr. Anon said...

Does not the author of that first story recognize something funny about the premise of the vignette he opens with - a CIA officer in a foreign country is.....spied upon. The nerve! An outrage!

I've got nothing against the Israelis spying on one of our spooks in their own country. What bothers me about them is the way they seem to view America as a great big vending machine designed to service them, and the many ways - like the Pollard affair - in which they clearly are not our friends.

By the way, Romney is in Israel now, sucking as hard as he can. Obama has never even been to Israel as President, and he'll easily pick up at least two thirds of the jewish vote, maybe more. But then I guess it's Sheldon Adelson's money that Romney is really after. In any event, clearly what we (white, non-jewish, actual american citizens) may want is entirely beside the point.

Anonymous said...

It seems the situation is quite grim.

They have enough money and technical expertise to insert themselves at critical nodes throughout the political, financial, and military infrastructure.

When your adversary, via front companies, is selling you software and hardware to be used in critical government and transportation systems, you're in big trouble.

Anonymous said...

This is actually a red herring. The problem is not so much that Israel is a spy threat but that US is totally run by Zionists inside out.

The notion of Israel as a spy threat gives the false notion that there is an independent America that is spied by foreign Jews. In truth, American policy--media, foreign, cultural, ideological, financial, etc--is set by globalist Jews from within.

In other words, even if Israel did not spy on us, much of American agenda would still serve Jewish interests because so much of America is owned and controlled by Jews.

Indeed, the fact that Israel is the #1 spy threat but politicians of neither party will say anything about it tell us who has the power.
If it were any other country than Israel doing such massive spying, there would be hell to pay.

Jews have such control over America that most Americans don't even know that a network of Jews in the 40s slipped the most guarded and most dangerous secret in the world to the Soviets. The BOMB secrets.
According to Jewish-controlled USA, men like McCarthy were worse than men like the Rosenbergs and their ilk.

Anonymous said...

The problem is not so much that Israel spies on us--all nations try to do that--but that we do so little about it. But why? It's because of who controls us FROM THE INSIDE. If there are flies inside the house but no one closes the window, shouldn't we be first asking why the window is not allowed to be closed?

I am not Spartacus said...

What? An author who hates a foreign country; especially that crummy country, Israel?

Fire him. NOW!!!

Only non-Christians are reliable Americans.

As to why America supports Israel, it is because the Jews own the Media and AIPAC will defeat any National Politician foolhardy enough to put America's survival above that of Israel's survival.

I get so sick of seeing candidates for POTUS showing-up at the wailing wall (and I don't mean The NY Times) trying to out-promise his opponent in various ways to succor Israel; "I will kill Iran faster and deader than my opponent will."

Frankly, the recent contests for the POTUS have been primarily about one thing - which of the candidates will be the errand boy for the Jews

Anonymous said...

Tel Aviv is not the capital of Israel. If an article refers to Israel in this way, it's a pretty good bet that the author hates hates hates Israel and is very biased against Israel.

"Hates"? This is exactly the kind of Jewish intolerance that makes others "hate, hate, hate" Jews. (Relax, no one hates you). FYI: Referring to Israel as Tel Aviv is absolutely standard practice in diplomatic journalism.

medvedev said...

The real question is whether US actively spies on Israel. Does anyone know?

Ivan Drago said...

described by three former senior U.S. intelligence officials

according to another two former U.S. officials

according to current and former officials

Anonymous sources are fun!
It's amazing how...trusting Steve Sailer can be when it suits his prejudices.

I'm sure it's just a coincidence that the AP put out an anonymously sourced hit-piece on Israel the day Romney visits Israel to differentiate himself from Obama through his support for Israel.

Ivan Drago said...

Until this question is properly resolved official US policy is that Jerusalem is not the capital of Israel and that Jerusalem should be the capital both of Palestine and Israel

Congress begs to differ:

(a) Statement of the Policy of the United States.--
...
(2) Jerusalem should be recognized as the capital of the
State of Israel


Public Law 104-45 3(a)(2)

Aaron in Israel said...

Re the comments above, the logical inference seems to be that if Jerusalem is not the capital, then Tel Aviv must be the capital. I can't figure out that logic. If you don't recognize Jerusalem as the capital, OK, I can understand that. But then why pick Tel Aviv and not Haifa, or Rishon Letzion, or any other Israeli city? Who ever heard of a capital city that doesn't have any high-level government offices?

Also, the problem with Jerusalem as capital goes back to 1949, not 1967. The legal status of Jerusalem - west and east, Jewish and Arab - has been considered to be unresolved ever since the British left.

Aaron in Israel said...

By the way, I made the same comment about the capital a while ago at alternativeright.com, and after that Richard Spencer switched to calling the capital Jerusalem, not Tel Aviv. So it's good to see that the alternative right also succumbs to Jewish pressure.

sunbeam said...

I think these intelligence agencies take themselves too seriously.

In the case of China, I'm not terribly certain what grand strategic purpose James Bond stuff serves.

I mean, given the situation today, you can pretty much get anything done you need to. Simply by waving a big handful of dollars (or yen come to think of it) around.

You can lobby your heart out. Hire whoever is willing from academia, business, or the twilight zone of people who move back and forth between government and academia and the private sector. I'm not terribly sure what technology we have couldn't be directly purchased or indirectly acquired by the hiring process anyway.

And when it comes to politics, American companies will do whatever you need anyway. There really isn't any need to ply our politicians with money and hookers.

All these movies and tv shows notwithstanding, I doubt the NSA has anything going on that would make a computer science or math professor at Berkeley go "Wow!"

Other than the insane amount of money they can throw at something, and whatever laws can be bypassed.

Tactically I guess it matter at the small end, things like the codes used to communicate with military units and the like.

But if you believe as I do, that a direct military confrontation between the US and China is a loser for both sides, it never will matter except in a corner case that is only a sideshow in the bigger picture.

Whatever passes for a struggle between the two is played out by trends, both economic, demographic, and cultural.

What people think is important differs, but I think the hollowing out and disappearance of American manufacturing is a bigger issue than this Jason Bourne stuff ever will be.

As for Israel? Meh. I tend to think in the long run, and in the long run it just doesn't seem important. I think in 50 or a 100 years it will be a footnote in history books.

Kind of like the fact that our battle plans in the Pacific were formulated with Great Britain in mind until sometime in the 1920's or 30's. Hardly anyone remembers now, and it will be the same with Israeli matters.

Yes, there is a long term assumption, based on demographics and climate change there.

AllanF said...

All this talk of Cuban and Chinese spy rings being limited to co-ethnics... by-golly this might be a pattern to consider.

Anonymous said...

I Anxiously awaiting Whiskey's defense.

Anonymous said...

http://www.freakonomics.com/2012/07/26/olympian-economics-a-new-marketplace-podcast/

Anonymous said...

I only hope our CIA is as good as the Israeli intelligence forces but something tell me that's just not so.

As for the Muslim pop. of the Middle East. I have to admit my sympathies for them have been dissipating over the years having gotten to know several Palestinians and other Muslims.

The Muslim world is all about pride, pride that keeps them stuck in the past, pride that sacrifices the future for the past. It's a cultural sickness, the same kind of sickness that keeps Sicilians putting curses on their ancestral enemies and the same kind that keeps many Southern whites berating those who in trying to seek an education are reaching for social mobility, the same that keeps blacks in the US calling those blacks who want to do well in school ugly names, the same dumb pride that keeps Arab peoples from building something out of the desert that the Israelis have.

Face it, after all this time, Middle East Arabs/Muslims are like blacks in this country: they enjoy being the aggrieved party, the perpetual victims. The majority of Arabs don't give a damn about Palestinians. They simply use them to vocalize about the West's mistreatment of the Arab world.

Israel could vaporize tomorrow and the Middle East would still be a mess.

How much of their behavior is HBD at work? How much of this is hard-wired by now?

(BTW, I admit to having had bad experiences with Arabs in college. What a mess of misogynistic, smelly, altogether unattractive men.)

Anonymous said...

"Until this question is properly resolved official US policy is that Jerusalem is not the capital of Israel and that Jerusalem should be the capital both of Palestine and Israel>"

That's the point. There can be no "properly resolved" policy. "Properly resolved" never replaces what is in the human heart. Until logic overpowers the stupidity of the heart, those people will get nowhere. By now, they enjoy being "nowhere." It's easier than finding a solution that requires them to produce, to structure themselves into a society that provides a future for their kids.

Blacks are living off the idea that their ancesters have been mistreated. (Of course, they conveniently omit that their ancestors enslaved one another). American Indians got treaties to preserve some of their lands and we see where that little decision has left them with.

Hate does indeed destroy the haters, even if their grievance is justified.

Thrasymachus said...

She can have access to my secret equipment any time.

Auntie Analogue said...

There is nothing new about an ally spying on its allies. In this game, which dates from antiquity, the U.S. is itself no shrinking violet. It is naïve to think that Israel is somehow uniquely "bad" for doing what every state has done since time immemorial.

Anonymous said...

I'm really getting sick of this "friends spy on friends" meme always invoked to defend Israel's actions. On the contrary, back-stabbing is far worse than declared enmity. In the not to distant past, spying was considered one of the most dastardly crimes possible (along with treason). Spies, when caught, were almost always hanged. Not only that but spying was considered to be a dishonourable occupation, as the profession requires perpetual lying and deception. The fact that Israeli's are almost proud of all their spying activities to the point of celebration is not a mark in their favour. Its just one more reason among many, that we need to regard them with intense suspicion.

Buddha said of lying:
"Rahula, for anyone who has no shame at intentional lying, there is no evil that that person cannot do."

Eric Rasmusen said...

I can believe that Israel spies on the US, but it is less clear this is a bad thing. I wouldn't trust our CIA not to botch things, leak shared intelligence, try some double-crosses, trade info for terrorist info,etc., and it would make sense to try to keep a covert eye on them.

Thefts of military intelligence are differently motivated, but that's part of the game too, if done according to the rules (e.g., don't use Israeli diplomats for it, don't sabotage US facilities).

Of course, tit for tat-- I hope we're spying on Israel too--- and keeping an eye on French, German, British, etc. relations with terrorists they might want to deflect to US targets.

Anonymous said...

"If an article refers to Israel in this way, it's a pretty good bet that the author hates hates hates Israel and is very biased against Israel."

Oh, and you're objectivity itself, sabril. If you love X and accuse another person of hating X, it's a "he said, she said" situation to outside observers. But if you love X and accuse another person of being BIASED about X, you make yourself look like an arrogant ass. You don't even pretend to be objective, yet you accuse the other guy of bias.

Tom said...

When you see someone disputing the fact that Tel Aviv is Israel's capital, you know you are dealing with with an Israeli or an Israeli tool.

Anonymous said...

The real question is whether US actively spies on Israel. Does anyone know?

For the US to be spying on Israel, we would need to have a spying program within our government that Israel hadn't infiltrated, and that sounds pretty farfetched to me.

Steve Sailer said...

Klaus Fuchs was the son of a Lutheran pastor.

Anonymous said...

"All this talk of Cuban and Chinese spy rings being limited to co-ethnics... by-golly this might be a pattern to consider."

Jews are by far the most wealthy and networked minority group in America.

Steve Sailer said...

IHTG says:

"I see [Israeli ethno-statehood] as a happy exception - at least the US is doing one thing right!"

Right. Israel is a country that has achieved a lot of success under difficult circumstances, and its methods are deserving of respectful, clear-eyed study by Americans.

Anonymous said...

"Israeli companies control a lot of the market in America for communication software"

Still, at least they don't control Google and Facebook.

Anonymous said...

The USA is, in general, a crusader for global liberalism and against ethno-statehood. Yet it is not against Israel, which is a shining example to the world of often illiberal ethno-statehood.

Anti-Zionists and anti-Semites see this as evidence of Jewish domination. That this double standard is all part of the plan.
I see it as a happy exception - at least the US is doing one thing right!


Well the double standard actually is part of the "plan" i.e. the same post-WWII moral narrative. The narrative is that the Holocaust was the worst event and the most defining event in History. Ethnostates can't exist because it can lead to the Holocaust; but a Jewish ethnostate must exist because of the Holocaust.

You have to be really intellectually dishonest to not acknowledge this.

DaveinHackensack said...

"Israel is far from the largest recipient of US aid. The champs there are Germany, S.Korea, Japan and every other place the US has kept an army for the last 65 years. Israel, in contrast, has always defended itself."

It would be interesting to consider the costs of keeping a ~40k strong garrison in South Korea for decades, but I would argue that our troops in Germany and Japan are there not for the Germans' and Japaneses' benefits, respectively, but for the benefits of us and those countries' neighbors (particularly, since the end of the Cold War).

DaveinHackensack said...

"The real question is whether US actively spies on Israel. Does anyone know?"

The article itself mentions that we have CIA officers in Israel, and the CIA is a spy agency, right? Though, granted, we almost certainly have CIA officers in every country where we have an embassy (and a few where we don't).

Anonymous said...

"Still, at least they don't control Google and Facebook."

Mark Zuckerberg mocked the Facebook sheeple for trusting him... Called them dumbfvcks.

Grampa Munster said...

You misunderstand Steve.

I'm pretty sure from the context that what's meant is "You misunderstand, Steve". It means something quite different if you leave out the comma. To anybody who has the least familiarity with standard English punctuation, without the comma "Steve" becomes the direct object, in which case you're saying that the addressee is misunderstanding Steve rather than telling Steve that he's misunderstanding. Quite a different sense!

I must have missed the memo that authorized people writing on the internet to omit commas with a vocative, but it's all over the place. Not only is it just wrong, but in an instance like this it actually distorts the meaning.

Figure out how to use a comma. It can only help my friend!

NOTA said...

I'm sure we infiltrate and spy on Israel, as well. I would guess that the US and Russia both have large numbers of people inside the Israeli government and military, since so many Israelis are first or second generation American and Russian immigrants, have family and friends back home, come to the US to study, etc. In the same way, our large inflow of Chinese students and immigrants and such surely means both that we've got Chinese agents here, and that some people working for us have gone back home to China.

Israel is its own country, with its own interests, political factions making good and bad decisions, etc. Realizing they spy on us or we spy on them only seems odd when you've absorbed the US media's weird cartoon view of the world, wherein we and our allies (especially Israel) are good guys who play by the rules. In truth, nobody does.

Baloo said...

Well, this is revealing. I'm not surprised about Russia or China or Israel, but Cuba is a bit of a shock. I wouldn't have expected them to have the resources. Anyhow, I've commented on this and linked to it here:
http://ex-army.blogspot.com/2012/07/us-sees-israel-tight-mideast-ally-as.html

Anonymous said...

The USA is, in general, a crusader for global liberalism and against ethno-statehood. Yet it is not against Israel, which is a shining example to the world of often illiberal ethno-statehood.


Anti-Zionists and anti-Semites see this as evidence of Jewish domination.


Really? Only "Anti-Zionists and anti-Semites see this as evidence of Jewish domination"? A clear-eyed and impartial observer would observe this peculiar situation and conclude - what?


I see it as a happy exception - at least the US is doing one thing right!

Tne purpose of pointing out the double-standard with repect to Israel is not to encourage "the US" to act to destroy Israel. It is to encourage Jews in the US to stop acting to destroy the US.

You've been reading these blogs long enough to know that already, so your dishonesty us disappointing.

Anonymous said...

Israel is far from the largest recipient of US aid. The champs there are Germany, S.Korea, Japan and every other place the US has kept an army for the last 65 years. Israel, in contrast, has always defended itself.


I'm sure it was news to occupied Germany that it was the beneficiary of US aid! America stations troops in foreign countries for the benefit of America, period. Not as "aid" for the countries in question.

Israel does not "defend itself". It's military is supplied with cutting edge technology courtesy of the US taxpayer, and with hundreds of millions of dollars per year in military aid.

In addition to the money we give directly to Israel, the US also gives Egypt four billion dollars per year in bribe money to encourage them not to fight Israel. That money is properly understood as more aid to Israel. For a "successful" country, they sure do a lot of mooching.

Anonymous said...

Israel is a country that has achieved a lot of success under difficult circumstances, and its methods are deserving of respectful, clear-eyed study by Americans.


Maybe America can guilt-trip some rich and successful country into giving it lots of money and technology by claiming to be poor and put-upon?

Anonymous said...

Anyone who disputes the fact that Los Angeles is the capital of the United States is an American or and American tool.

Anonymous said...

Here's a story in the Israeli media about US aid to Israel.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4101134,00.html

A side note - you've gotta love the ad featuring a (suspiciously non-Jewish looking) bodacious blonde beauty.

Anonymous said...

The JIDF is out in force on this thread.

Anonymous said...

Israel is far from the largest recipient of US aid. The champs there are Germany, S.Korea, Japan and every other place the US has kept an army for the last 65 years. Israel, in contrast, has always defended itself.

South Korea actually pays the US hundreds of millions of dollars a year for the military.

S. Korea regularly signs agreements spelling out its burden sharing responsibility for US troops. The current agreement, which was signed in January 2009, covers the five-year period between 2009 and 2013.

The financial burden South Korea must shoulder, converted into dollars, is about $694 million. That amount rises for each of the succeeding four years at an amount pegged to inflation. The prior agreement covered 2007 and 2008, with payments totaling $664 million and $678 million in 2007 and 2008, respectively.

You can read it here:

http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/130172.pdf

http://www.dodig.mil/audit/reports/fy08/08-118.pdf

And S. Korea has about 500,000 service members on active duty, plus many more reserve troops. In a regional war in northeast Asia, I imagine they would be most of the cannon fodder. In a regional war in the Mideast, it'd be American troops that are the cannon fodder.

I suspect there are similar agreements with Germany and Japan.

Is there anything comparable between the US and Israel?

DaveinHackensack said...

"A side note - you've gotta love the ad featuring a (suspiciously non-Jewish looking) bodacious blonde beauty."

Aside from the bright blonde hair (which of course could be a dye job), she looks like she could plausibly be Jewish, Greek, Italian, etc.

Anonymous said...

"I'm not surprised about Russia or China or Israel, but Cuba is a bit of a shock."


Plenty of liberals love Cuba. Though Cubans may do most of the spying, they're overlooked by the liberal media and agents in government. NY Times helped Castro to power. And plenty of liberals have made pilgrimages to Castro.

Anonymous said...

"Speaking of gov't nonsense, Steve, I was surprised you didn't notice Obama's recent diktat to require schools to penalize white and black students equally"

You mean like he's been treated 'equally' by the media?

Anonymous said...

The JIDF is out in force on this thread.

What do you call your faction?

Anonymous said...

Maintaining troops in South Korea costs US taxpayer anywhere between $15 and $40 billion a year. They refund us $700 million? That's good.

128b12fa-d777-11e1-b364-000bcdca4d7a said...

As others have said here, it strikes as odd that a station chief is surprised at being "spied on" by a host nation. The thing to consider is the potential malevolence of those doing the spying. IMHO not so odd that it isn't covered so much in the US media ;)

What about US businessmen (or businessladies) traveling overseas, for purely commercial purposes, who discover that
their electronic stuff has essentially been hacked and compromised. I can't remember particular indiscretions for citation, but I can recall countries (e.g., Pantagruel's lieu de naissance).

I keep getting pleasantly distracted by the Chapman photo.

The Israelis brought up the Pollard thing again today with romney, I think. Let's hope Pollard remains in prison.

Of the four so-called threats mentioned there by XX, I rhetorically wonder what nationalities are represented heavily in tertiary education here in the States, particularly in STEM? Forget about soft sciences.

I keep getting pleasantly distracted by the Chapman photo.

128b12fa-d777-11e1-b364-000bcdca4d7a said...

As others have said here, it strikes as odd that a station chief is surprised at being "spied on" by a host nation. The thing to consider is the potential malevolence of those doing the spying. IMHO not so odd that it isn't covered so much in the US media ;)

What about US businessmen (or businessladies) traveling overseas, for purely commercial purposes, who discover that
their electronic stuff has essentially been hacked and compromised. I can't remember particular indiscretions for citation, but I can recall countries (e.g., Pantagruel's lieu de naissance).

I keep getting pleasantly distracted by the Chapman photo.

The Israelis brought up the Pollard thing again today with romney, I think. Let's hope Pollard remains in prison.

Of the four so-called threats mentioned there by XX, I rhetorically wonder what nationalities are represented heavily in tertiary education here in the States, particularly in STEM? Forget about soft sciences.

I keep getting pleasantly distracted by the Chapman photo.

Steve Sailer said...

The Pollard thing was really, really bad, and you would think that the Israelis and their friends in America would learn to shut up about it instead of trying to spring Pollard. Pollard was a cokehead who sold secrets on the locations of US boomer subs -- the last line of defense in the nuclear deterrent triad -- to the Israelis, who bartered them to the Soviets. Caspar Weinberger, for example, was appalled and horrified when he found out.

Gene Berman said...

Last anon:

I'm just guessing that our troops in South Korera are there under very different curcumstances and agreements than those in either Germany or Japan. In both of those places, the U.S. presence is as a reflection of arrangements considered mutually agreeable by the governments concerned. In addition, we've probably got specific committments to NATO.

In S. Korea, a state of war still exists, each sides holding a bit of "enemy" territory and separated by a demilitarizedzone. "Korean War" saw U.S. action as part of a U.N. "police action," another dozen or so countries in minor roles (to that of U.S. and ROK). Our obligation (committment of troops and equipment) is probably, technically, still to the U.N., though we probably have additional agreements with ROK itself.

As example, both US and ROK have obligation for certain numbers of troops. Special arrangement with ROK allows US to reduce US troops while still fulfilling its UN obligation. How? US "rents" Korean soldiers, in units called KATUSA (Korean Augmentation To United States Army), who serve in their own units under U.S. command. These get paid exactly as though they were U.S. personnel, except they never see the money, which is paid directly to ROK (which pays the troops same as though they were serving in ROK units. The 18-month ROK service is, to the Korean soldier, similar to a foreign deployment for a U.S. soldier (though I don't think they get anything extra for it).

IHTG said...

The Pollard thing was really, really bad, and you would think that the Israelis and their friends in America would learn to shut up about it instead of trying to spring Pollard.

It's a different mentality, Steve. Like Gilad Shalit, he's a soldier left behind in the field. Or at least that's how the public has been taught to think about him.

Tne purpose of pointing out the double-standard with repect to Israel is not to encourage "the US" to act to destroy Israel. It is to encourage Jews in the US to stop acting to destroy the US.

Oh, I realize that, and in fact heartily support the usage of said tactic. Not sure how what I said contradicts it.

Gilbert Ratchet said...

Figure out how to use a comma. It can only help my friend!

Nice one!

Anonymous said...

Maintaining troops in South Korea costs US taxpayer anywhere between $15 and $40 billion a year.

US taxpayers don't pay for anything.

The entire US balance of payments deficit is basically a military deficit.

Countries that run a balance of payments surplus with America get dollars, dollars that are turned over to their central banks. The central banks buy US Treasury bonds and finance with those Treasury bond purchases, the military spending that's responsible for the US federal deficit.

All of the money that the military spends abroad ultimately gets recycled into US Treasury bills. If it weren't for the military deficit, America would have to finance its own domestic budget deficit. It's been foreigners that are financing the budget deficit.

Anonymous said...

Interesting take on the BOP.

"Nice country. Shame if something bad were to happen to it. By the way, there's a new 10-year issue coming out this week. Sincerely, The Pentagon."

Looking at MFH data from Treasury, most of the top-10 treasury security-holding nations fall under the US military umbrella. The notable (pun intended) exceptions are Russia and China, of course.

I think there's some merit to the claim that the US military, while obviously extremely expensive, does recoup some of those expenses in lower Treasury borrowing costs. Perhaps some egghead has done a detailed study?

sunbeam said...

I'm kind of struck by something that occurred to me reading this thread.

How much do Israeli and American Jews actually have in common?

Maybe old hat to some, but it just not 1960 anymore, with Jews segregated by both choice and pressure.

I understand there are quite a few intermarriages, far more than there used to be. If your dad is Jewish, and your mom something else, how excited and interested in Israel are you?

If you aren't raised in a community with a lot of other Jews, or go to a Jewish school, how are you going to become part of the tribe?

Let's say you are from Southern California. Say you are secular, and don't go to Synagogue. (David Lee Roth had to come from somewhere.)

It just seems to me that whole thing is going to just peter out. If you aren't really interested, it gets harder and harder to make yourself involved.

I mean, how many times a year do third generation American Italians think about Sicily?

Ivan Drago said...

sold secrets on the locations of US boomer subs -- the last line of defense in the nuclear deterrent triad -- to the Israelis, who bartered them to the Soviets

Got any evidence for this? Let me guess, more anonymous sources?

Anonymous said...

"I mean, how many times a year do third generation American Italians think about Sicily?"

Jews kept a strong coherent identity in the "diaspora".

kudzu bob said...

Pollard looks like an even homelier version of the Comic Book Guy.

Whiskey said...

The French are major spies upon the US too, and for the same reason.

While both Israel and France share over-arching goals with the US, both worry constantly, and for good historical reason, about being "sold out" by the US. For the French, that was the Suez Affair, much of West Africa, and dealings in Southeast Asia. For Israel, it is that the US will "cut a deal" with say Iran, or the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt, and agree to Israel's annihilation for some temporary bonus, a deal on oil or the Suez Canal or somesuch.

That's a pretty realistic fear, given that most Coastal Whites in the Democratic party HATE HATE HATE Israel as White Ethno-State Enemy #1, Blacks hate Jews intensely (because Jews were influential in ending Segregation and have a much higher average intelligence than Blacks thus guaranteeing Black hatred), and Catholic Latinos have the general attitudes of Viennese Catholics in 1913.

I don't blame the Israelis for spying so intently, failure to do so can get their people DEAD DEAD DEAD very quickly. Being so small, demographically and territorially, they have zero margin for error and ample experience on the uselessness of the international community and "guarantees."

Whiskey said...

As for Israel having a lock on lots of communication software, that's easy. They have a bunch of smart people. Unlike say Silicon Valley, they don't destroy cohesion with endless amounts of H1-B visa holders (cheap, lesser skilled labor).

America's Silicon Valley has been effectively destroyed (Microsoft's Employees were all White and nearly all male at first) by importing lots and lots of Chinese and Indian programmers and program managers who favor co-ethnics from the home villages (often extended cousins) instead of keeping a skill-base alive. You might as well ask why Germany's Mittelstand has a lock on machine tools, or Japan on affordable watches.

America had that lead and threw it away in pursuit of cheap wages.

ATBOTL said...

"Right. Israel is a country that has achieved a lot of success under difficult circumstances, and its methods are deserving of respectful, clear-eyed study by Americans."

One thing that is interesting about Israel is that 100% of the elites are Jews and 0% of the elites non-Jews. That's something we should definitely be learning from. Make sure your own people have ALL the power and never let members of hostile minority groups run newspapers or banks.

Whiskey said...

As far as Jews and the US goes, many, many Jews are opposed to Israel even existing: Steven Spielberg, Sarah Silverman, to name just two. Most have no real religion, i.e. they don't observe restrictions and dictates and don't attend Temple. Most are concentrated in the coasts, in media, entertainment, law, and finance. There are few Jews working say the oil patch.

Jews voted for Obama by about 70%, and will likely do so again. Even though Obama is the most anti-Jewish and anti-Israeli President since Ike (who disliked Israel intensely). Some of that is no doubt a heritage of Truman, who liked Jews and recognized Israel over the torrid objections and planned mutiny of the State Dept and the military. Most Americans like Jews and Israel, otherwise Seinfeld, the most Jewish comedy on TV would not have been such a hit and endlessly quoted everywhere. Nor would both Romney and Obama pay lip service to supporting Israel.

However again, Coastal elites including many Jews oppose Israel's existence. Any reader of the FT knows the assumption is that all ethno-states save non-White ones are bad, and that all military force save that by non-Whites are bad, apply in spades to Israel which is viewed through the lens of a Black Panther meeting.

Ike was arguably anti-Israeli, so was JFK, until the reality of Soviet domination of the ME and threats to the Gulf (from Soviet backed Iraq, Syria, and Egypt) led the US to an alliance of convenience with Israel and Iran, tolerated by a frightened Saudi Arabia. This switch came late in the LBJ administration, around 1967 or so. Was continued by Nixon though he personally found Jews abominable, and the Soviets were kicked out by Sadat in 1972, losing Egypt.

Practically speaking, Israel has been a net plus. It is too weak to be an independent player (too small demographically to bite off chunks of territory and its people to adverse to casualties). Meanwhile it has excellent intel, particularly human intel, on various nations of interest to the US, has territory that can be used to launch spying particularly drone operations, can be persuaded in emergencies to open its ports for logistical support elsewhere, and has its own surveillance capacity.

No one assuredly gives a good damn about the Palestinians, not the least of which are the Sunnis in a death match with the Iranian Shia. Syria putting the lie to anyone caring anything about the Palestinians.

SFG said...

"It just seems to me that whole thing is going to just peter out. If you aren't really interested, it gets harder and harder to make yourself involved.

I mean, how many times a year do third generation American Italians think about Sicily?"

Pretty much true. The thing is that heads of Jewish organizations get paid to drum up tribal feeling, and the Israeli government leans on their guilt.

The whole thing works both ways. There was an amusing flap a while back where an Israeli organization ran all these ads showing American Jewish kids thinking Christmas and Hanukkah were the same thing, etc. and American Jewish organization complained and they stopped.

The real problem is that the persecution complex means the Israelis think they are entitled to anything because otherwise they'll be destroyed, etc.

One of these days I'm going to get disgusted and convert to Southern Baptism.

Anonymous said...

What is this Israeli "communications software" that people keep talking about?

Is it used by Cisco? Juniper? Alcatel-Lucent?

[Although apparently an Israeli company bought some of the remains of Nortel...]

Anonymous said...

As for Israel having a lock on lots of communication software, that's easy. They have a bunch of smart people. Unlike say Silicon Valley, they don't destroy cohesion with endless amounts of H1-B visa holders (cheap, lesser skilled labor).

Israelis are a major beneficiary of H1-Bs as well.

They took over certain key security niches in software because of active participation by their military-industrial-intelligence complex.

Anonymous said...

As for Israel having a lock on lots of communication software, that's easy....You might as well ask why Germany's Mittelstand has a lock on machine tools, or Japan on affordable watches.

We're not talking about key communication and security software niches inside Israel. We're talking about those niches inside the US that they've taken over.

Anonymous said...

"the Five Eyes of the Anglosphere(U.S., U.K., Canada, Australia, and usually New Zealand), have preserved a remarkable amount of the sincere spy-friendship borne of shared hardship in World War II, and come pretty close to being friends who don’t spy on each other."

Yes, perfect strangers they were, flung together by the vagaries of WWII; bound only by their recent anti-fascist history and the accident of language.

Another example of political correctness makes stupid.

Gilbert Pinfold.

Anonymous said...

"Tel Aviv is not the capital of Israel. If an article refers to Israel in this way, it's a pretty good bet that the author hates hates hates Israel and is very biased against Israel."

The Tel Aviv libel, eh, what?

GP

Anonymous said...

Israelis don't vote in our elections, do they?

They do. Many have dual citizenship. I know a guy who has three: Israel, USA, Germany.

sunbeam said...

Anonymous said:

'"I mean, how many times a year do third generation American Italians think about Sicily?"

Jews kept a strong coherent identity in the "diaspora".'

Yeah, but I don't think the modern world, and in particular the United States is like anything they've existed in before.

This place is like some kind of cultural sandblaster that removes all features of those who are placed therein.

People get hopped up about Mexicans here, but they are going to become fat-ass, Big Gulp drinking proles like everyone else.

Well as long as that lasts anyway.

Jews seem to be more resistant to assimilation, but to my eye they are getting there.

To me the special people are American blacks. All this time, all that federal money spent, all that legislative effort, and it is still what it is.

Jews may have survived Pogroms, the Holocaust, persecution, jihads, what have you. But American consumer culture is a different animal altogether.

It really is one of the most successful cults in world history.
(won't make it for the long haul though)

sabril said...

"Much of Jerusalem is occupied Palestinian territory captured by Israel "

Nonsense, there was no such thing as "Palestinian territory" in 1967. Eastern Jerusalem was occupied by and claimed by Jordan.

But anyway, even if we assume for the sake of argument that Israel's claim to Jerusalem is somehow illegitimate, it doesn't follow that Israel's capital is Tel Aviv or Haifa or any other city.

sabril said...

How dare the Israelis spy on CIA operatives in Israel? The chutzpah of it all!

sabril said...

"Oh, and you're objectivity itself, sabril."

I'm not asking anyone to accept claims I made simply on the basis of my authority.

Anonymous said...

"the Five Eyes of the Anglosphere(U.S., U.K., Canada, Australia, and usually New Zealand), have preserved a remarkable amount of the sincere spy-friendship borne of shared hardship in World War II, and come pretty close to being friends who don’t spy on each other."

The White Anglosphere countries are friendly and trust each other? SHOCKING!

Anonymous said...

How dare the Israelis spy on CIA operatives in Israel? The chutzpah of it all!
This argument would only hold water if it were proven that the CIA employees were in Israel in order to spy. What evidence have you got of this? And, yeah, now that you mention it, it is a case of chutzpah (i.e. incredible effrontery), because state-sponsored spying is an act of war.

TGGP said...

Microsoft is technically located in Redwood, Washington rather than Silicon Valley.

Also, I already pointed out earlier that even university faculties side with Israelis as much or more than Palestinians, contrary to the claims of Mencius and Israel. It certainly isn't the case that coastal whites broadly HATE HATE HATE Israel, but then again that phrase (what I tell you three times is true!) is practically a confession of bullshitting at this point.

TomV said...

Sabril said:

"Tel Aviv is not the capital of Israel. If an article refers to Israel in this way, it's a pretty good bet that the author hates hates hates Israel and is very biased against Israel."

Projection, projection. Not everyone is as obsessed with Israel as you are, Sabril.

If I refer to the Israeli government as "Tel Aviv," that's because I've heard it countless times and never anything else. Certainly not "Jerusalem." I was actually surprised to learn that the seat of government isn't there when I looked it up this morning. Shame on me, perhaps, but I have better things to occupy myself with than Middle-Eastern political correctness.

And to think that Sabril is one of the more reasonable ones. SFG, don't leave the tribe. It's all down to you now.

Mr. Anon said...

"Steve Sailer said...

Klaus Fuchs was the son of a Lutheran pastor."

I had thought that Fuchs was raised as a Quaker (an unusual denomination for Germany).

Mr. Anon said...

"Steve Sailer said...

The Pollard thing was really, really bad, and you would think that the Israelis and their friends in America would learn to shut up about it instead of trying to spring Pollard. Pollard was a cokehead who sold secrets on the locations of US boomer subs -- the last line of defense in the nuclear deterrent triad -- to the Israelis, who bartered them to the Soviets. Caspar Weinberger, for example, was appalled and horrified when he found out."

Is there any speculation regarding what it was that the Israelis got from the Soviets in exchange for Pollard's information?

The primary reason the Israelis seek Pollard's release is likely because they have to be seen to do so, if they ever want to recruit other american citizens to spy for them. They need to prove that they will stand behind their guys to the utmost. That also indicates how much remorse they feel over the matter. Perhaps they are running a few stellar spies right now, and they need to keep them encouraged.

Londoner said...

"Israel", "spies", "Lavon", "Pollard"... looks like the web-crawling software at Hasbara central triggered a veritable klaxon after you made this post, hence its minions scuttling all over the comments thread.

Anonymous said...

"The entire US balance of payments deficit is basically a military deficit."

There's an interesting circularity here in that - since most of the guts of the american economy was ripped out by offshoring - the dollar as the reserve currency is the only thing holding up the superpower military - through scaring smaller countries off copying the Chinese and Russians dropping of the dollar for international trade - is in turn the only thing holding up the dollar as the reserve curency.

I think the constant threat - but no action - of war against Iran is partly to do with this i.e. it scares countries off from copying the Chinese and Russians in dumping the dollar for international trade.

.
"US taxpayers don't pay for anything."

It's post-dated. They will pay if and when the dollar stops being the reserve with instant, and i do mean instant, Weimar.

.
"How much do Israeli and American Jews actually have in common?"

As long as some percentage of Jews are engaged in activities that are absolutely guaranteed to create massive amounts of anti-semitism - and the banking system does that on its own every 70 years or so even without the cultural warfare - then the rest will eventually be driven back into the herd.

That's the - evolved not intentional - point. The culture of paranoia creates behaviors which produce a reaction and the reaction then feeds the culture of paranoia and so it goes round in a circle.

יהונתן פולארד said...

I will walk soon!

Anonymous said...

"This place is like some kind of cultural sandblaster that removes all features of those who are placed therein.

People get hopped up about Mexicans here, but they are going to become fat-ass, Big Gulp drinking proles like everyone else."

Sunbeam, "cultural sandblaster" is a great metaphor... very apt description of American culture.

Disagree with you a little about the Tribe drifting apart because of the sandblasting. True, some have and will continue to drift away, but that leaves the more fanatical behind. In a way this is worse, because the fanatical who refuse to assimilate exhibit views and behaviors that aren't moderated by their lesser devoted co-religionists who have chosen to leave or have drifted away.

In the end you get a smaller group of paranoid fanatical sociopaths with a siege mentality who are cousins to a country, Israel, which openly boasts of taking the rest of the world down with them with their 200+ nuclear arsenal if they are attacked.

I mean what type of "people" openly threaten to destroy the "world" and the rest of civilization if they are attacked?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samson_Option

Sure, a lot of liberal Jews loathe the Neocons, but look how fanatical and blood thirsty the Neocons can be when excited.

You can practical see the blood in their eyes as they lick their lips in gleeful anticipation of killing more of Israel's enemies if you catch them in the right conversation on the right talk show.

If you are a human being watching their act can be quite repulsive.

Regarding Mexicans, given the proximity of Mexico and their large numbers I also don't forsee their integration as being either rapid or unproblematic.

Regarding Blacks, I agree with you progress has been sloooow.

The sandblaster may be powerful, but it has a lot of work to do.

Beecher Asbury said...

Whiskey wrote, "As far as Jews and the US goes, many, many Jews are opposed to Israel even existing: Steven Spielberg, Sarah Silverman, to name just two. "

Really? In a 2006 interview with Spiegel, Steven Spielberg had the following to say about Israel:

SPIEGEL: How would you describe your attitude to Israel?

Spielberg: From the day I started to think politically and to develop my own moral values, from my earliest youth, I have been an ardent defender of Israel. As a Jew I am aware of how important the existence of Israel is for the survival of us all. And because I am proud of being Jewish, I am worried by the growing anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism in the world. In my film I ask questions about America's war on terror and about Israel's responses to Palestinian attacks. If it became necessary, I would be prepared to die for the USA and for Israel.


That doesn't sound like a guy who opposes the existence of Israel.

Dennis Dale said...

I was distressed to read the comments over at some conservative inc. site--condemnation of the AP's egregious anti-Semitism! God help us.

sabril said...

"Not everyone is as obsessed with Israel as you are, Sabril. "

To be sure. But then again, you are not writing a lengthy article about Israel's activities.

Anyone who writes a lengthy article for publication ought to know that Tel Aviv is NOT the capital of Israel. And if they make such a basic misstatement, it's reasonable to be very skeptical of the entire article.

sabril said...

"This argument would only hold water if it were proven that the CIA employees were in Israel in order to spy. What evidence have you got of this? "

Lol, read the first line of the article. It refers to "sensitive equipment" the CIA operative had in order to communicate with CIA headquarters. If he was not in Israel to spy, why does he need "sensitive equipment"? You do realize, don't you, that Israel has telephone service?

Anonymous said...

Weird that so many normally fact-based isteve commenters should insist on their right to call Tel Aviv the capital of Israel, even though it is not. Again, I insist on everyone's right to refer to L.A. as the seat of the U.S. government, and anyone who complains about it is a quibbling ninny.

Anonymous said...

It's post-dated. They will pay if and when the dollar stops being the reserve with instant, and i do mean instant, Weimar.

Well yes, if the dollar stopped being the world reserve currency, and the US wished to maintain its military empire at its current levels, then US taxpayers would have to pay big time to maintain it. You'd have to have severe austerity with lower living standards and higher taxation. Politically, it's more likely that the military empire would be significantly scaled back because the public wouldn't want such burdens.

Anonymous said...

As far as Jews and the US goes, many, many Jews are opposed to Israel even existing: Steven Spielberg, Sarah Silverman, to name just two.

Spielberg has voiced his support for Israel in quite strong terms before.

I don't think Silverman is opposed to Israel existing.

Silverman's sister Susan lives in Jerusalem with her husband and children.

Silverman frequently visits and does shows in Israel.

http://forward.com/articles/12067/sarah-silverman-jokes-for-israel-/

"Sarah will show her love for Israel when she and cast members from her TV series headline “Comedy Without Borders,” a performance benefiting the Arava Institute for Environmental Studies (an organization located on Kibbutz Ketura, where Susan, her husband and their five children live)."

sabril said...

"If the CIA has a station chief in Tel Aviv I see nothing wrong with the Israelis spying on him there. That would be internal counterintelligence"

I agree. What exactly is a CIA operative doing in Israel with "sensitive equipment"? Is he trying to figure out which country has the best falafel?

sabril said...

"The problem is not so much that Israel is a spy threat but that US is totally run by Zionists inside out. "

If the US is "totally run by Zionists," then why is Pollard still in jail? Why is the US embassy still in Tel Aviv and not Jerusalem? Why does the US not recognize Israel's annexation of the Golan Heights?

sabril said...

" This is exactly the kind of Jewish intolerance that makes others 'hate, hate, hate' Jews."

Lol, let's see if I have this straight:

The real reason people hate Jews is that Jews think there is hatred against Jews.

Possibly you've outdone the inventors of the "stereotype threat" hypothesis for inversion of cause and effect.

sabril said...

"Referring to Israel as Tel Aviv is absolutely standard practice in diplomatic journalism."

Cite please.

sabril said...

"The real question is whether US actively spies on Israel. Does anyone know?"

I would guess that if the CIA has an operative in Israel with "sensitive equipment," it's a pretty safe bet.

Ariel said...

"I mean what type of "people" openly threaten to destroy the "world" and the rest of civilization if they are attacked?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samson_Option


- That wikipedia entry was pretty f'ed up.

We go to war with Iraq because of that country's supposed stockpiles of lesser weapons that might be used to harm someone, are on the verge of war with Iran because they could potentially develop arms while not making threats against us, and here we have a country in Israel who openly boasts of targeting peaceful capitals of countries who have done nothing to it, such as in Europe, with its known nuclear arsenal- and this is a friend?

A friend who has been proven to spy on us, a friend who has sunk a US naval vessel, a friend who dragged us into multiple military conflicts and wars on its behalf, costing us thousands of soldiers and billions upon billions in expense? A friend who conveniently has the blame for these things placed on our shoulders through the US media- 'The war in Iraq was about oil', etc.

There's the old adage- ' with friends like these...' At best, Israel is like a sociopathic bully who pretends to be your friend as long as he can get things from you.

Anonymous said...

Weird that so many normally fact-based isteve commenters should insist on their right to call Tel Aviv the capital of Israel, even though it is not.


You seem to be the "weird" one. It's the entire world which insists that Tel Aviv is the capital of Israel, and not just some crazy commenters on a blog.

Anonymous said...

Anyone who writes a lengthy article for publication ought to know that Tel Aviv is NOT the capital of Israel. And if they make such a basic misstatement, it's reasonable to be very skeptical of the entire article.


According to the CIA Fact Book: "Israel proclaimed Jerusalem as its capital in 1950, but the US, like all other countries, maintains its Embassy in Tel Aviv".

Israel says that Jerusalem is its capital. Everyone else says otherwise.

Anonymous said...

Again, I insist on everyone's right to refer to L.A. as the seat of the U.S. government, and anyone who complains about it is a quibbling ninny.


If you can get everyone to agree with you - as everyone agrees that Tel Aviv is the capital of Israel - then you'll have a strong case. But of course, you cannot.

Mr. Anon said...

"Whiskey said...

As far as Jews and the US goes, many, many Jews are opposed to Israel even existing: Steven Spielberg, Sarah Silverman, to name just two."

Is this your latest tactic of argument - just plain outright lying?

Mr. Anon said...

"sunbeam said...

Jews may have survived Pogroms, the Holocaust, persecution, jihads, what have you. But American consumer culture is a different animal altogether."

However, in the orthodox, they have a deep bench. Just as some jews figuratively outmigrate, through marriage and assimiliation, there is a steady in-migration of liberal, non-religious jews from the ranks of the orthodox, who give up orthodoxy, but not their identification as jews. This serves to replenish the ranks. And the orthodox are quite fecund. I don't see the jewish tribe, or a cohesive sense of jewishness, going away anytime soon.

Anonymous said...

Jews may have survived Pogroms, the Holocaust, persecution, jihads, what have you. But American consumer culture is a different animal altogether


This fable about how Jews have been persecuted to an unusual degree really needs to be buried. It's bad enough that Jews believe this nonsense, we don't need the rest of the world playing along with the story.

DirtyTricks said...

Doesn't the CIA station chief have video cameras watching entry points to his communications equipment, if not watching it directly?

Difference Maker said...

sabril said...
Lol, read the first line of the article. It refers to "sensitive equipment" the CIA operative had in order to communicate with CIA headquarters. If he was not in Israel to spy, why does he need "sensitive equipment"? You do realize, don't you, that Israel has telephone service?


Perhaps he and the USG would not like the Israelis to interfere in US domestic processes once he has reported his opinions as an observer on the ground.

ben tillman said...

Really? Only "Anti-Zionists and anti-Semites see this as evidence of Jewish domination"? A clear-eyed and impartial observer would observe this peculiar situation and conclude - what?

You're missing the bait-and-switch.

When the term is defined, "anti-Semitism" refers to a psychopathic hatred of Jews or, nonsensically, a grave moral failing. When the term is used, however, it applies to any failure to resolve a conflict of interest in favor of the Jewish community.

Ben Tillman said...

It's post-dated. They will pay if and when the dollar stops being the reserve with instant, and i do mean instant, Weimar.


What a great name for a band or a song! "Instant Karma" was pretty good, but Instant Weimar would be awesome.

NOTA said...

Anon:

I expct that this will happen sooner or later. We will have some kind of political or economic or social crisis that shakes the notion that US securities and investing in US markets is safe, and then almost overnight, we will find ourselves having to finance our unsustainabtle deficits internally or cut back. And a lot of the world will be destabilized by this, as we abruptly pull back from our (massively overextended) military commitments worldwide.

A flaw in the human mind is the expectation that because stuff has worked a certain way for all your lifetime, that means it must keep working that way forever. Reality isn't put together that way--many apparently permanent aspects of the world rotted out silently and collapsed, shocking the hell out of everyone. I grew up in a world with a dangerous and monolithic Soviet Bloc and an impoverished and backward China, and the world looks nothing like that now. It would be foolhardy to assume that stuff like the US being the world's piggy bank will continue forever, permitting us to spend more than we produce every year.

Anonymous said...

One thing that is interesting about Israel is that 100% of the elites are Jews and 0% of the elites non-Jews.

That's interesting about America, too.

Anonymous said...

General George Keegan, former head of US Air Force Intelligence, said that Israeli intelligence is worth five CIA. So US must be getting something out of the intelligence cooperation with Israel.

Svigor said...

And if they make such a basic misstatement, it's reasonable to be very skeptical of the entire article.

Your logic is self-refuting. See, I've seen you engage in so much cheap, low-grade pseudo-intellectual shysterism that everything you say is suspect.

William said...

Mitt Romney abased himself before the wailing wall and grovelled to Israelis in order to get crumbs from Sheldon Adelson. The big question is whether romney will do a dubya and shed american blood and waste american treasure to satisfy the mad militarism of his neocon advisors.

Anonymous said...

The CIA has a section chief in Tel Aviv? And he's annoyed that the people he's there to spy on are spying on him?

Im sure the CIA has at least a nominal presence in most countries, usually based in the US embassy.

Just as most other countries will have their equivalents in their embassies.

Anonymous said...

Anon said re jews & Israel: In the end you get a smaller group of paranoid fanatical sociopaths with a siege mentality who are cousins to a country, Israel

I dont think thats a recent development, I think jews have been like that for many, many generations. The only recent addition being the modern state of Israel.

Anonymous said...

Using "Tel Aviv" as a stand-in for Israel is perhaps a rather silly way to show that you're an in-the-know type, but it's even sillier to act as if it's some huge display of ignorance or malice.

The Tel Aviv metro area has almost half of Israel's population, and much more than half of its Jewish population. And Israel is pretty tiny demographically and geographically - apart from a few locations of historical significance (irrelevant to some modern jet-setter), what's really there besides Tel Aviv? It's like using "Baltimore" as a stand-in for "Maryland" - somebody in Chevy Chase might get annoyed, but so what?

Anonymous said...

According to Joseph Nye, a professor at Harvard who worked in the Clinton admin and authored the US' post-Cold War basing policy in E. Asia at the Pentagon, removing the US forward bases in Korea, Japan, etc. wouldn't save much money because of the host nation payments for the bases. If the US was committed to military and nuclear deterrence of China, North Korea, etc., it would have to base the troops and capabilities elsewhere, such as the US, while losing some features of forward bases or bridgeheads.

http://thediplomat.com/2012/07/26/the-interview-joseph-s-nye/

Jonathan Silber said...

Regarding blacks and Arabs and their ilk who present themselves as victims:

When one such black expressed his "rage" to philosopher Eric Hoffer, Hoffer replied: "Mister, it's easy to be full of rage. It's not easy to go to work and build something."

And that's it in a nutshell.

The achievements of the Jews--especially those in the desert they share with the Arabs--are a constant reminder to the Arabs of their own fecklessness.

And the achievements of the Caucasians are a like rebuke to the black race.

sabril said...

"the logical inference seems to be that if Jerusalem is not the capital, then Tel Aviv must be the capital. I can't figure out that logic"

I agree it doesn't make much logical sense, but it's a shorthand way of denying Israel's legitimacy. It's a pretty reliable indicator that the author is very much against Israel.

Here's another indicator:

"even in a country friendly to the United States, the CIA was itself being watched."

i.e. holding Israel up to a double standard. Surely the CIA is watched in every last country where it operates.

TomV said...

Sabril:

"Anyone who writes a lengthy article for publication ought to know that Tel Aviv is NOT the capital of Israel."

No doubt, but his readers do not. I, for one, would find
"DC and Jerusalem are such close partners" jarring and even puzzling. I would have to *think* about what it means. Call it dumbing down if you will, but one writes in the language that the reader understands.

Unless one has some sort of agenda...

Besides, if you're looking evidence of the author's resentment against Israel, there is ample in the piece itself. The guy makes no attempt to hide it. The question is whether the resentment is justified. And I've seen enough of these debates to know that many instinctly feel ("know") that any resentment of Israel supplies evidence against itself.

This silly stickling about "Tel Aviv" saves you from admitting (to yourself) that circular logic of "antisemitism."

sabril said...

" I, for one, would find
'DC and Jerusalem are such close partners' jarring and even puzzling."

I don't see why. The seat of Israel's government is in Jerusalem.

"And I've seen enough of these debates to know that many instinctly feel ('know') that any resentment of Israel supplies evidence against itself."

Sure, like Israel's audacity in spying on CIA operatives stationed within its borders.

"This silly stickling about 'Tel Aviv'"

No, it's simply a demonstration that the author's factual assertions are suspect. It's kinda like people who insist on capitalizing the word "black" while putting "white" in lowercase. (or vice-versa). You can call it "silly stickling," but it's reasonable to infer that people who insist on doing that have an agenda. Their factual assertions should not be trusted. Duh.

sabril said...

"It's like using 'Baltimore' as a stand-in for 'Maryland'"

Is there any author, newspaper, or other publication which does this? I've never heard of any.

Also, is there any publication or author which (1) regularly and consistently uses "Tel Aviv" as a stand-in for "Israel" and (2) is NOT regularly and consistently hostile towards Israel?

sunbeam said...

Mr. Anon said:

"However, in the orthodox, they have a deep bench. Just as some jews figuratively outmigrate, through marriage and assimiliation, there is a steady in-migration of liberal, non-religious jews from the ranks of the orthodox, who give up orthodoxy, but not their identification as jews. This serves to replenish the ranks. And the orthodox are quite fecund. I don't see the jewish tribe, or a cohesive sense of jewishness, going away anytime soon."

Yeah, but I have one question: Are these guys smart? Feynman, Von Neumann smart? Do they have the mutations or the heredity the Jews we all know and love have?

If they don't, if they are only "average" as the Sephardic Jews are, then what you have is the equivalent of Gypsies with a little more smarts, and less survival skills.

I'm sure they will regarded warmly in some quarters, but well so what? Lots of people like that in the world.

sunbeam said...

Anonymous said:

"This fable about how Jews have been persecuted to an unusual degree really needs to be buried. It's bad enough that Jews believe this nonsense, we don't need the rest of the world playing along with the story."

By no means are the Jews the only persecuted minority in the world. However to say they haven't been persecuted to an unusual degree? I'd tend to think they have.

If you wish I could list some minorities that have only been "ordinarily" persecuted in world history.

And I can list some that have been "unusually" persecuted.

I think the Turks have put some minorities under "double secret" persecution.

History. It never ends, never stops bleeding.

Anonymous said...

Of course US spies on its allies, including the Anglo-Saxon nations. Ever heard of Echelon?

Anonymous said...

read the first line of the article. It refers to "sensitive equipment" the CIA operative had in order to communicate with CIA headquarters. If he was not in Israel to spy, why does he need "sensitive equipment"? You do realize, don't you, that Israel has telephone service?


Last I checked, America has a phone service. But I'm 100% certain that the Israeli embassy does not communicate with Tel Aviv (see how I did that?) by ATT or Magic Jack. They possess "sensitive equipment" to communicate privately. And if the CIA were to break into the Israeli embassy in DC to access that equipment, it would provoke a national incident.

Anonymous said...

one'd think with the reception that Netanyahu got, there'd be no need for these things. The chinese are getting there too.

"That doesn't sound like a guy who opposes the existence of Israel."

Unfortunately the WASP-harvard mafia didn't exist back then.

Dennis Dale said...

Would they please stop calling that Russian spy "hot"? Good lord, she looks like a turtle. Like a ginger Maggie Gyllenhaal.

Anonymous said...

It would be a pity if iStevers started deliberately saying "Tel Aviv" instead of "Israel" just to annoy posters like Sabril and Aaron in Tel Aviv, sorry, Israel. I'm sure that won't happen though.

Kybernetika said...

Steve Sailer said...
"Klaus Fuchs was the son of a Lutheran pastor."

Perhaps, but he seems an outlier in popular treatments such as Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_Spies

Another horrible case of disparate impact. Of course, if you factor in average IQ by ethnicity, it ain't so surprisin' that some groups may have higher representation.

As a nominal Lutheran (rather out of practice), I feel proud that another one of us has somehow stumbled into such company ;)

Anonymous said...

I don't see why. The seat of Israel's government is in Jerusalem.

"Yankee" is used to refer to Americans and America related stuff, even though most Americans aren't Yankees, and America isn't really Yankee in culture, folkways, etc.

Anonymous said...

It's not surprising that the CIA would be wary:

"A series of CIA memos describes how Israeli Mossad agents posed as American spies to recruit members of the terrorist organization Jundallah to fight their covert war against Iran."

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2012/01/13/false_flag

NDB said...

Sabril is just a hasbarat, as shown with his "Tel Aviv" obsession (I'd bet money that XX Committee author, as a US Govt employee, was just reflecting US Govt policy), but it's time to shut down his silliest comments.

1. All intelligence agencies rely on secure comms, every last one of them. Securing one's comms is 101-level stuff in all intelligence circles.

2. US intelligence presence in friendly countries is usually a liaision function, ie cooperation and intel sharing with local services, including targeting of third-country personnel (ie CIA does not attempt to recruit Israels from its station in Tel Aviv, but it may target, say, Russians there).

3. In every country, the local security service (FBI in USA, SHABAK in Israel) will assess the foreign intelligence presence to determine who is really a spy under cover.

4. However, targeting those persons and stations for recruitment, harrassment, etc as the AP story indicates has done to CIA in Israel, is never, ever done with friendly countries - and I promise you that if the FBI did that to Israelis in the USA Congress would hear the screams via AIPAC within minutes.

5. Worst of all, Israel uses false-flag tactics to recruit spies and helpers - including masquerading as US intelligence. Totally 'not done' to a friendly service ... but the rules are different for the Jews.

sabril said...

"It would be a pity if iStevers started deliberately saying "Tel Aviv" instead of 'Israel' just to annoy posters like Sabril"

Agreed, I don't care for trolls. But at least there is value in people wearing their agenda on their sleeve, so to speak.

sabril said...

"'Yankee' is used to refer to Americans"

Agreed. So what?

If I used "Los Angeles" as a stand-in for California, would it be less jarring and puzzling than "Sacramento"?

e.g. "Yesterday, Los Angeles decided to raise the state sales tax by 1%."

sabril said...

"Sabril is just a hasbarat,"

Ummm, I haven't made a secret of the fact that I am a Zionist. Is it inherently illegitimate to defend Israel?

"All intelligence agencies rely on secure comms, every last one of them."

So what?

"US intelligence presence in friendly countries is usually a liaision function"

So you are confident that CIA operatives in Israel are not there to spy on Israel?

" I promise you that if the FBI did that to Israelis in the USA Congress would hear the screams via AIPAC within minutes."

Ok, so you are confident that the FBI does not keep an eye on Mossad agents in the United States?

" Israel uses false-flag tactics to recruit spies and helpers - including masquerading as US intelligence"

You are confident that American agents never do such things?

Please provide cites from reputable sources for all of your claims, i.e. not simply conclusions asserted by haters of Israel.

In particular, please show evidence that (1) CIA agents operating in Israel do not engage in spying on Israel; (2) FBI agents in the US do not spy on Mossad agents operating in the US; and (3) CIA agents never pretend to be from friendly countries.

sabril said...

"But I'm 100% certain that the Israeli embassy "

If a Mossad agent who happens to be in New York uses "sensitive equipment" to communicate with Jerusalem, is it reasonable for New York to believe he is probably there as a spy? Is it reasonable for New York (acting through the FBI) to keep an eye on him?

"nd if the CIA were to break into the Israeli embassy in DC to access that equipment,"

Oh, are you saying that that the Israelis broke into the New York embassy?

Svigor said...

Lol, read the first line of the article. It refers to "sensitive equipment" the CIA operative had in order to communicate with CIA headquarters. If he was not in Israel to spy, why does he need "sensitive equipment"? You do realize, don't you, that Israel has telephone service?

Lol, your grasp on good argument is as nonexistent as ever. The need for "sensitive equipment" for communications and whether one is spying on any particular party are two entirely distinct issues. Or maybe you can give us a cite for your implied assertion? Or are you going to smash Jewish stereotypes again by playing your usual shyster act and saying "a question is not an assertion"?

" This is exactly the kind of Jewish intolerance that makes others 'hate, hate, hate' Jews."

Lol, let's see if I have this straight:

The real reason people hate Jews is that Jews think there is hatred against Jews.

Possibly you've outdone the inventors of the "stereotype threat" hypothesis for inversion of cause and effect.


Is there a form we can fill out, to petition for a better class of habaroid? I think iSteve readers deserve it. Btw, "lol" is looking more and more like your tell.

The Sources of Iranian Conduct

“It is an undeniable privilege of every man to prove himself right in the thesis that the world is his enemy,” Kennan wrote of Soviet leaders’ paranoia. “For if he reiterates it frequently enough and makes it the background of his conduct he is bound eventually to be right.”

Jews are like a drunk who's been thrown out of every bar in the county; it doesn't take a genius to see that the problem's with the drunk, not every bar in the county.

Just look at America; our fathers and grandfathers pulled their asses out of the fire, and they're still turning the screws on us.

Cite please.

Anyone want to lay odds that Sabril learned this silly tactic at Wikipedia? I wonder how much "truth" he's protected there.

At best, Israel is like a sociopathic bully who pretends to be your friend as long as he can get things from you.

Jewry is essentially sociopathic, on an ethnic level. Anything and everything is justified because sometimes the goyim fight back.

I don't see the jewish tribe, or a cohesive sense of jewishness, going away anytime soon.

Some of our commenters are just that much smarter than 3000 years of precedent. They know the real score.

Using "Tel Aviv" as a stand-in for Israel is perhaps a rather silly way to show that you're an in-the-know type, but it's even sillier to act as if it's some huge display of ignorance or malice.

Not if distraction (e.g., "cite please") is your main tactic. Well, okay, it does look like a pretty silly tactic from where I'm sitting, but experience tells me it might just peel off a few suckers.

Svigor said...

i.e. holding Israel up to a double standard. Surely the CIA is watched in every last country where it operates.

No double standard. Iran, Israel, same standard.

It's a pretty reliable indicator that the author is very much against Israel.

Cite please.

Yeah, but I have one question: Are these guys smart? Feynman, Von Neumann smart? Do they have the mutations or the heredity the Jews we all know and love have?

If they don't, if they are only "average" as the Sephardic Jews are, then what you have is the equivalent of Gypsies with a little more smarts, and less survival skills.


I'd say the smart money is on "yes." Until "Jewish emancipation," all Jews were orthodox. That's where Ashkenazis came from.

By no means are the Jews the only persecuted minority in the world. However to say they haven't been persecuted to an unusual degree? I'd tend to think they have.

That's like saying a career criminal has been harassed by law enforcement to an unusual degree.

It would be a pity if iStevers started deliberately saying "Tel Aviv" instead of "Israel" just to annoy posters like Sabril and Aaron in Tel Aviv, sorry, Israel.

That would be too bad.

Agreed, I don't care for trolls. But at least there is value in people wearing their agenda on their sleeve, so to speak.

Can you give us a cite for that? Never mind, I'll tell you right up front, my agenda is "ANTI-SEMITIC!!!" (i.e., pro me and mine, not pro you and yours).

Ok, so you are confident that the FBI does not keep an eye on Mossad agents in the United States?

That's cute, how you totally ignored what he was saying and invented a new meaning via straw man. Good tactic, I'm sure no one will notice.

Please provide cites from reputable sources for all of your claims, i.e. not simply conclusions asserted by haters of Israel.

Yeah, you're Wikipedia-trained. Either that, or Wikipedia got its training from the same place as you. Not only do we have to provide cites for negatives (it's our job to prove Santa Claus does not exist, now), but they have to be cites from sources of which you approve. Can you show us a cite indicating why we should care about your opinion?

please show evidence that (1) CIA agents operating in Israel do not engage in spying on Israel

Please show evidence that the Tooth Fairy does not exist.

Anonymous said...

God in Heaven, it's almost shockingly depressing to see how "small" the comments are on this thread.

Let me try again, and this time, let's try to THINK BIG.

Who wrote this article?

Who ordered its release?

Who stands to gain from the release of this article as written?

Who stands to lose from the release of this article as written?

C'mon people, this is iSteve: WHO/WHOM?!?

NDB said...

Sabril: You're funny. You have paid no attention to what I said, so cut it out.

You obviously know nothing about intelligence, and a lot about Zio-agitation.

You're a vastly better recruiter for the ZOG-obsessed nut-wing than a million David Dukes.

FredR said...

"If your dad is Jewish, and your mom something else, how excited and interested in Israel are you?"

My impression (from being one such person, and knowing many others) is still fairly interested.

TomV said...

Sabril said:

" I, for one, would find
'DC and Jerusalem are such close partners' jarring and even puzzling."

I don't see why. The seat of Israel's government is in Jerusalem.


You would even if you weren't willfully blind. Popularity matters for figures of speech (metonymy in this case).

Sure, like Israel's audacity in spying on CIA operatives stationed within its borders.

More like Jonathan Pollard. Don't sell your diaspora short.

sabril said...

"No double standard. Iran, Israel, same standard."

I'm not sure I'd consider Iran a country to which the US is friendly. But would Iran be criticized for spying on CIA agents operating within its borders?

"Cite please."

Simple observation and common sense. It's anti-Israel publications like The Guardian which insist on using "Tel Aviv" as a stand-in for Israel. Besides, why else would anyone falsely imply that Tel Aviv is the capital of Israel?

"Never mind, I'll tell you right up front, my agenda is 'ANTI-SEMITIC!!!'"

You do get credit for honesty. Although your analogizing of Jews to career criminals is kind of a hint.

"That's cute, how you totally ignored what he was saying and invented a new meaning via straw man."

He's asserting, in essence, that the FBI does not spy on Israeli agents in New York. Agreed?

"Not only do we have to provide cites for negatives"

Among other things, he asserted that "US intelligence presence in friendly countries is usually a liaision function"

That's not a negative at all. He is asserting, in essence, that New York sends intelligence operatives to Israel for liason purposes only. I'd like to see proof of this claim.

"Please show evidence that the Tooth Fairy does not exist."

If New York sends CIA operatives to Israel; and those operatives have "sensitive equipment," it's reasonable to assume they are engaged in spying. If they are there for liason purposes only, I'd like to see some proof.

sabril said...

"Popularity matters for figures of speech"

Show me three prominent newspapers anywhere in New York which regularly use "Tel Aviv" as a synonym for Israel.

Svigor said...

Simple observation and common sense.

Cite please.

You do get credit for honesty. Although your analogizing of Jews to career criminals is kind of a hint.

I knew I'd have to walk that one back about 2 minutes after I posted, when I realized "that's like saying the American military unfairly persecuted the German military in WWII" was a better fit.

Agreed?

No.

it's reasonable to assume they are engaged in spying

Cite please.

Svigor said...

Show me three prominent newspapers anywhere in New York which regularly use "Tel Aviv" as a synonym for Israel.

Show me three idiots interested in jumping through hoops for you.

NOTA said...

Just as an aside, having encryption equipment absolutely does not equal spying on the local nation. If the Israeli government ever shares information with the local CIA liasons, or the US governemnt ever sends information along to be shared with the Israelis, then they would have encryption equipment.

Now, of course the CIA spies on Israel, and of course the Israeli government would like to know what they're reporting home. And of course we spy on Israeli agents here. (There was even a fun case a few years back where a US congresswoman was caught on phone taps promising votes for some kind of reward from Israeli agents.)

Out of curiousity, are there Israelis who have been arrested for being American or Russian spies? I'd expect a lot of both, but I don't know whether that's true, or whether that sort of thing gets made public in Israel.

sabril said...

"Cite please."

Simple observation and common sense.

"Show me three idiots interested in jumping through hoops for you"

Lol, I guess that means you have no interest in actually backing up your ridiculous claims.

"No"

Well in that case, what exactly is he asserting that the FBI does not do?

sabril said...

"Now, of course the CIA spies on Israel, and of course the Israeli government would like to know what they're reporting home. And of course we spy on Israeli agents here"

Agreed, but some people are (apparently) so blinded by their hate for Israel, they cannot accept these things.

Anonymous said...

"What a great name for a band or a song! "Instant Karma" was pretty good, but Instant Weimar would be awesome."

heh, yes.

.
"You'd have to have severe austerity with lower living standards and higher taxation. Politically, it's more likely that the military empire would be significantly scaled back because the public wouldn't want such burdens."

Yes, ultimately it would have to but i think TPTB would try and hold onto it for as long as they could. That would require a more totalitarian gvernment of course.

Svigor said...

Simple observation and common sense.

Cite please.

that means you have no interest in actually backing up your ridiculous claims.

Cite please.

Well in that case, what exactly is he asserting that the FBI does not do?

Try Strunk & White, or hooked on phonics or something.

Svigor said...

Agreed, but some people are (apparently) so blinded by their hate for Israel, they cannot accept these things.

Others are so busy carrying water for Israel they can't handle basic reading comprehension.

sabril said...

"Try Strunk & White, or hooked on phonics or something."

Lol, nice weasel.

"Others are so busy carrying water for Israel they can't handle basic reading comprehension."

Are you referring to me here? If so, kindly identify the passage I have misconstrued. Please use quotes.

TIA.

Mr. Anon said...

I think we can all come to some agreement here:

Jerusalem is indeed the capital of Israel, and Sabril is a dick.

sabril said...

By the way, I don't engage with "Mr. Anon" due to his past dishonesty.

Anonymous said...

The Israelis are good enough to break into CIA agent's lock boxes but not good enough to make the break in undetectable? Wassamata, they don't have iphones to take a picture of the box's contents so they can put it back together in the same way? Ditto on "rearranging the food in the refrigerator". 2 possibilities come to mind - the 1st is that the break ins never happened and the CIA guys are imagining things or are covering up some failing of their own. The 2nd is that this some sort of intentional signal by the Israelis - "Just a little reminder here that we are watching you, so watch what you do and say." People complain about Israel's spying on the US, but if these were CIA guys in Israel, what were THEY doing there? Do we get to spy on the Israelis but not vice versa?

Mr. Anon said...

"sabril said...

By the way, I don't engage with "Mr. Anon" due to his past dishonesty."

Sabril is a liar. I have never been dishonest in my posts concerning him. Quite the contrary, he is deceitful and argues in bad faith.

Mr. Anon said...

"Anonymous said...

People complain about Israel's spying on the US, but if these were CIA guys in Israel, what were THEY doing there? Do we get to spy on the Israelis but not vice versa?"

Did we ever trade secrets we got from them to one of their adversaries?

sabril said...

"2 possibilities come to mind - the 1st is that the break ins never happened and the CIA guys are imagining things or are covering up some failing of their own. The 2nd is that this some sort of intentional signal by the Israelis - "

Those do seem to be the most likely possibilities. Of course it's also possible that it's the Russians. Surely they have a few agents floating around Tel Aviv and Jerusalem.

"People complain about Israel's spying on the US, but if these were CIA guys in Israel, what were THEY doing there? Do we get to spy on the Israelis but not vice versa?"

A lot of people have a subconscious double-standard when it comes to Israel.

Mr. Anon said...

"sabril said...

A lot of people have a subconscious double-standard when it comes to Israel."

Most notably, jews.

Sword said...

I guess that I am unimaginative, but what is the point of breaking into a lockbox with "sensitive communication equipment"?

Assume that is has happened, and that some Israeli agent actually has gotten into the lockbox.

What then? Did they plan on taking out the equipment, taking it to some lab to get info out of it/implant a snooping soft/hardware, and then return it undetected?

First problem: the agent probably does not know what the equipment looks like, in detail. Therefore, he can not substitute it for some copy that would ensure that the CIA person would not be alarmed one the lockbox is openend.

Second problem: Time frame. If one takes out the equipment and plans to test it in a lab, then one has to do that in some other place. It takes time to run tests, especially on stuff that has some sort of password (at least) protection. Once that is done, one has to return to home of the CIA gay, do a 2nd break-in, put back the thing in the lockbox, and hope that the whole thing goes unnoticed. If something gets noticed by the CIA guy, then he knows that the equipment is compromised. Then the CIA guy simply has to take back the equipment to Langley, where it can be examined at leisure. Meanwhile, by simply not using the equipment, there will not be any useful results coming out of the whole thing, seen from the POV of the Israeli side.

What am I missing?

Anonymous said...

>> The real question is whether US actively spies on Israel. Does anyone know?


Well, just look at the number of American military & civil servants that get run through Modern Hebrew language classes in Defense Language Institute (Monterey CA) and in Suburban DC..... a large number.


Item in the Hebrew press a few years ago. 2 CIA field agents got run out (in a nice polite way, they were given a week to ship their house belongings out, & etc) of Israel after being spotted continuously driving around Dimona. The cover story that they were Mr & Mrs tourist didn't check out. Marriages in the USA are registered.

We are a world power in espionage. We spend our resources in America because it's an important country that makes things happen. What should we do, spy on Lichtenstein ?!?

In a thousand years, no one in North America will still be speaking English, and probably won't even be white. But parking tickets in Jerusalem will still be being issued in Hebrew.

This is the timeframe we use in judging countries and super-powers. Where the Roman Empire went..... America will someday follow.

Anyway, 90% of the time, the two countries have virtually-identical interests. Maybe 95% of the time.