February 8, 2013

From "Dorner Unchained" to "Dorner Explained:" NYT ponders whether LAPD had it coming

There haven't been enough wacko shootings so far in 2013, so the air has been slowly leaking from gun control momentum since the Newtown peak. You might think that L.A. lunatic Christopher Dorner would be an excellent example to pump back up the panic over Nuts-With-Guns. But, instead, because Dorner mentioned the R Word, Attention Must Be Paid to his reasons, just as with Connecticut shooter Omar Thornton in 2010.

From the New York Times:
Shooting Suspect’s Racism Allegations Resound for Some 
By ADAM NAGOURNEY56 minutes ago 
Whatever the changes since the days of rampant racism and corruption at the Los Angeles Police Department, an alleged killer’s charges — however unhinged — have struck a chord. 
LOS ANGELES — For the Los Angeles Police Department, the allegations of departmental corruption and racism by a former police officer now accused of a revenge-fueled killing rampage are the words of a delusional man, detached from the reality of the huge improvements the force has undergone over the years. 
“These are the rantings of a clearly very sick individual,” William J. Bratton, a former department commissioner, said Friday. “It would be a shame if he was able to rally to his cause people who remember the bad old days of the L.A.P.D.” 
Yet for whatever changes the department has undergone since the days when it was notorious as an outpost of rampant racism and corruption, the accusations by the suspect — however disjointed and unhinged — have struck a chord. They are a reminder, many black leaders said, that some problems remain and, no less significant, that memories of abuses and mistreatment remain strong in many parts of this city.

You'll recall that Thornton's massacre inspired far fewer calls for gun control than inquiries into whether or not the victims had it coming.

68 comments:

Anonymous said...

I don't think this is a race issue. The victims so far appear to be a white cop, plus a black cop and his Asian fiancee.

Equal opportunity.

Kaz said...

What Anon @ 6:14 said. The guy in his manifesto was mad at everyone, he even called out black higher ups that shit on white recruits, because it instilled racism in another generation.

He's mad all around at the LAPD, and with the way they're handling this, it kinda vindicates him, a bit..

Seriously, shooting up the wrong car without any confirmation, great job..

Anonymous said...

Black leaders said...

Oh yes..more white on black racism, when that is not what Dorner is referring to.

Anonymous said...

What's interesting about all the pictures coming out of California is just how militarized American police forces have become.

Cops in 30's managed to take down the most dangerous criminals of the Depression era with shotguns and .38 revolvers. Modern cops look like they're about to storm Fallujah.

Auntie Analogue said...


Ah, the New York Times, the genteel echo chamber of the Southern Poverty Law Center. An African-American goes gun-violent, and it is, of course, White people's fault. Drumbeat, drumbeat, drumbeat, drumbeat....

Anonymous said...

I used to write coverage and edit screenplays for a company in Hollywood, and this guy who is a monster in real life would plausibly be a hero of a "high concept" film. If someone had given me a script about a black cop who earned the wrath of a corrupt LAPD when he "crossed the blue line" sticking up for victims of police brutality and racism, and then turned outlaw to get his revenge, I would have told my boss to give the story a look. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised some studios have decided to stop work on more than one script where the "hero" resembles Dorner a little too closely.

Dorner hasn't been caught yet, so he may be starting to think he is an real-live superhero. This would fit with his obsessions with movies and vigilante justice, and of course with the fact that he wants to do the work of the police. Let us hope The Coon doesn't strike again. For black iSteve readers, I hope my use of "coon" doesn't offend: I mean it as a South Park reference, not an ethnic slur.

Anonymous said...

Well, as of this writing, he's managed to elude the largest dragnet operation in Californian history, making the LAPD and a half dozen federal agencies look like fools.

That LEOs are lighting up innocent members of the public is just the icing on the cake.

I'm starting to very reluctantly root for him.

Truth said...

Pure nonsense, Steve; attention is always paid to their motives..when they live. I guess you're going to say you never heard about McVeigh and the unibomber's motives?

Anonymous said...

He killed a fellow black and an asian not whites.

Anonymous said...

The G-Men in the 30's weren't using shotguns and .38 revolvers, at least not exclusively. The cars of the era had heavy sheet metal and .38's weren't good at penetrating them. Eventually the FBI became famous for Tommy guns. The Colt Monitor--a shorter version of the Browning Automatic Rifle--also had a following.

Anonymous said...

The dude white to Cypress High School in the 1990's hardly any blacks which might explain his crazy thinking. There were mainly whites at that time and Hispanics and Asians.

Anonymous said...

That's right. Gun control is racisssss.

How else will blacks be able to kill those racisss mofos if they don't have guns, including those scary assault weapons with assault magazines and assault bullets!

Maguro said...

Well, it's kind of hard to push a gun control angle when the killer's a cop.

Anonymous said...

You know what his college major was? Political science. In other words the only useful skill he learned was to blame all his own personal failings on "racism".

Gould K.L. Brownlee said...

I love it that it's just a wee tad difficult to figure out what race the guy is in the mainstream media. It's such a big story that if you simply Google his name you get a bunch of pics, but you DO have to do that. Most mainstream media won't mention race and will do everything they can to avoid showing a picture of the guy.

I just looked for the story on my local newspaper's website, the Sacramento Bee, and first of all, it's really hard to find the story and they don't have a picture of the murderer when you finally find the link. The only way I found the link was to click on the "Most Viewed" tab. It's second on the list. People in California are extremely interested in this story, but our California newspaper, the Bee, doesn't have a link on the "front page" of their website.
You have to wade through a photo gallery of panicky cops violating search and seizure laws until finally after about 15 of those you see a little pic of the lively, vibrant offender. It's amazing lol. They are actually trying to bury the picture and the story of the guy.

They also have the obligatory story about how the murderer felt he was a victim of racism. They quote all these people who knew him and there are all these comments about how the family was "admired" and were "nice people" and the guy was "liked a lot" and was "friendly." On and on and on. Well den it mus uh been dem ol raciss White folks that druve him to do it. How could a "nice", "friendly", race obsessed, steroid freak, lively, vibrant diverse who had constant, "friendly debates" about race with his close personal friends of all hues and backgrounds commit such a crime unless he was driven to it by them ol raciss White folks?

Of course if it was a White guy who felt he was a victim of racism then they would probably photoshop his picture with devil horns and fangs and have the picture take up the whole width of the page. It would be captioned; "WHITE FUGITIVE EX COP". The very idea that a White guy might feel discriminated against is, to a Leftist pig, a sign of deep pathology.

Anonymous said...

Steve, even your regular commenters think you're out to lunch on this one. The guy is too odd and heterodox to pin down as an Omar Thornton. He's actually much more interesting than that-- a black guy who goes out of his way to proclaim himself not ghetto and reaffirm his basic patriotism.

Steve Sailer said...

"Steve, even your regular commenters think you're out to lunch on this one. The guy is too odd and heterodox to pin down as an Omar Thornton."

Violent wackos aren't very interesting or important in themselves. What is interesting and important are the lessons that can be learned from analyzing how the media eventually integrates the various vicious oddballs into The Narrative.

Luther said...

Cops in 30's managed to take down the most dangerous criminals of the Depression era with shotguns and .38 revolvers. Modern cops look like they're about to storm Fallujah.

Not really true. For instance, in 1934, the six men who ambushed Bonnie and Clyde were armed with Colt Monitors, which, as another commenter has stated, were Browning Automatic Rifles. The lawmen had the twenty round magazines charged with armor piercing 30.06 cartridges. They also had shotguns and handguns. According to participants:

Each of us six officers had a shotgun and an automatic rifle and pistols. We opened fire with the automatic rifles. They were emptied before the car got even with us. Then we used shotguns... There was smoke coming from the car, and it looked like it was on fire. After shooting the shotguns, we emptied the pistols at the car, which had passed us and ran into a ditch about 50 yards on down the road. It almost turned over. We kept shooting at the car even after it stopped. We weren't taking any chances.

Steve Sailer said...

The 2013 Torrance Police Department expended about the same amount of firepower on those two poor ladies delivering newspapers as those 1934 cops expended on Bonnie & Clyde.

Anonymous said...

Why does the LAPD always find itself in controversy? I suppose the NYPD and other large police departments have their share of controversies, but the LAPD seems to be in a class by itself.

I read his "manifesto" and it seems to become very disjointed as soon as it started getting interesting. I also read that there are many media censored versions on the internet now. I wonder if I only read a censored version...

It seems to me that all of the mass murdering wackos that leave manifestos usually have some valid points before going off on a tangent. I guess that's evidence of their insanity, other than the murders themselves. Or is it?

One thing is for sure, the guy had odd political reasoning. Standard DWL views with sprinklings of racial politics. It's probably a result of having gone to white schools as a black. A very boohoo prism through which he sees the world.

Anonymous said...

"Cops in 30's managed to take down the most dangerous criminals of the Depression era with shotguns and .38 revolvers. Modern cops look like they're about to storm Fallujah."

As other posters have mentioned, those, BAR's, and Tommy guns were military arms of the era. Heck, I'm sure they'd have used Garands and Springfields if they decided to take Clyde at range.

"this guy who is a monster in real life would plausibly be a hero of a "high concept" film."

It's a story with all the makings of a PoMo fiction novel. Dorner could be the protagonist in a lesser-known Vonnegut yarn (Hocus Pocus 2: Electric Boogaloo), or maybe a point-of-view character in a chapter out of some Delillo book.

M said...

"Violent wackos aren't very interesting or important in themselves. What is interesting and important are the lessons that can be learned from analyzing how the media eventually integrates the various vicious oddballs into The Narrative."


I'm not sure why you're so opposed to tiny bits of violence like this or why you think they're unimportant. People who commit suicide have a story to tell about a group much larger than those who take that ultimate step and people with enough intelligence to plan and write manifestos before they violate every cultural principle on which they were raised and go out and kill people - as part of their suicide - have a very interesting story to tell and one that they're likely telling on behalf of millions of others.

The "racism" narrative that he picked up from the MSC (main stream culture) is an important story of course but it's not the main part of this story - even for people as anti the "that be raciss!" narrative as all of us here are.

And, like many others here, I don't really feel like I have a dog in this fight. It's not easy to choose between a guy who carries out a personal vendetta that he's so confident about that he shares it with the whole world and the guys who set up roadblocks and open fire on unarmed civilians at will. Let God sort them out.

M

stari_momak said...

Obviously the guy is whacked (and from the recent images of him, I think that steroids may be involved.

But you have to give him credit, he's obviously thought this through.

The point is well taken about the 'racism' charge. Sure, some attention was paid to McVeigh's motives, but they weren't accorded any respect (the motives were examined mostly to 'link' others who shared his beliefs to his action. Here, the motive is , in the Narrative, a mitigating factor.

What is missing is that this guy has, despite California's stringent regulations on guns, a 50 cal and reportedly a surface to air rocket launcher (the latter might be bluster on his part, of course). As they say, when guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns.

Mr. Anon said...

Let us take charge of the narrative. The narrative, as I see it, should be that law enforcement officers are no more trustworthy with firearms than are civilians. Moves to disarm civilians (and so infringe our constitutionally guaranteed liberties) in the wake of sensational crimes like Sandyhook make no more sense than it would calling for disarming policeman because of cases like this.

And lest one think that policeman of the calibre of officer Dorner are quite to rare, consider these other cases of cops gone wild:

Culpeper Virginia Police Shooting

Or this:

Florida Trooper threatens to shoot citizen in the back

Eric said...

You'll recall that Thornton's massacre inspired far fewer calls for gun control than inquiries into whether or not the victims had it coming.

I'll never understand how racism became Problem Number One in the US. In terms of the things that can make someone a terrible person, IMO racism doesn't even rank in the top ten. But somehow we're supposed to look for new and innovative ways to sniff out and marginalize people who might be racists.

Anonymous said...

tiny bits of violence like this

Sarcasm?!?

Anonymous said...

He seems to have growth up in Orange County and since Orange County tends to be Republican more so when he grew up being black met he was attractive to the hard left side as a rebellion. As for the guns, even he was in a state that allow you those guns he sitll would killed his victims, he shot them in Irvine which has one of the lowest crime rates for murder for a city over 200.000.

Assistant Village Idiot said...

Okay, Steve explained the distinction between the story about Dorner and the story about the media - which was there on a first reading if you took the time.

I haven't noted any sheepish apologies since then.

Or are you still going "No, I was right the first time, Dorner's not really a racist and..." Some practice standardised tests, where they ask "What is the main topic of the essay?" and give you four choices might be in order.

TontoBubbaGoldstein said...

With sincere apologies to Ken Hamblin, I think Dorner should be christened The Black Avenger®.

If a movie is made....I want a check.

a very knowing American said...

Some Sailerish questions:

Dorner is huge. Did he get that way naturally, or is he on steroids? Has this affected his mental state? Is there any steroid subculture among LA cops, or other cops and security types?

Anonymous said...

Another incompetent/marginal black promoted because of "Affirmative Action." The guy accidentally shot himself while at the police academy! And he was still around! The main racism this goon experienced in the LAPD was in his favor, and against the safety of the public, something that, of course, doesn't bother the white-hating Liberal racists that run the NYT.


http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-dorner-profile-20130207,0,3013535.story?page=1

Anonymous said...

It should also be said that the Times and the rest of the media playing up the race angle helps hide the political angle. Nobody could ever prove that Jared Loughner ever saw Palin's "target" campaign ad much less acted on it, but we don't have to guess who inspires Dorner's murderous hate, he tells us point blank. His actions are just the logical conclusion of the mouth-foaming intolerance of his heroes on CNN and MSNBC, and in Hollywood. But unlike the Palin case the media is not inclined to explore the possible connection.

David said...

Given that he's one week out from the navy, I have to wonder if he is the posterboy for Middle Eastern war PTSD and the generaln failure of military mental health services. And is he killing people with navy guns?

Likely a number of his accusations are true. He paints LAPD as a bastion of callous assholes of all varieties. I find that to be believable.

Steve, I think this story is sufficiently interesting that every aspect of it is going to get the media narrative treatment. An educated center-left psycho killer? Women shot up delivering the paper? Hideout in big bear? The inevitable movie will gross 200 million!

Steve Sailer said...

"Is there any steroid subculture among LA cops, or other cops and security types?"

A friend who is a sportscaster in L.A. came to visit Chicago in 1993 and he said he was struck by the huge number of cops on the street in Chicago and how reassuringly pudgy they were, as if they assumed they'd always have enough backup. In contrast, L.A. Thin Blue Line cops looked like they spent all their free time at Gold's Gym so they could singlehandedly wrestle in the dirt with the Crips and the Bloods.

Anonymous said...

Dorner is huge. Did he get that way naturally, or is he on steroids? Has this affected his mental state?

It could also be Typical Jock Behavior, or TJB.

Mike said...

From my dealings with LAPD his story seems very likely to be true. Beyond anything else the department is just staggeringly lazy. I have to deal with different levels of the LAPD from time to time at work and his stories of a nasty, vindictive organisation is definitely my experience. They are utterly lacking in the most basic competence in most situations.

I would honestly be very surprised if Hispanic officers DIDN'T use racial slurs. They are literally from the same homes as the gang bangers.

LA is a city where you have to know how to protect yourself and the LAPD is a huge reason for it. It has nothing to do with the racial make up of the city either - Rialto has an excellent police force and the place is a dump.

Snippet said...

>>> I guess you're going to say you never heard about McVeigh and the unibomber's motives?

They were never presented sympathetically. In fact, they were presented as evidence of just how dangerous (ahem) certain (ahem) political agendas are.

Snippet said...

>>> Steve, even your regular commenters think you're out to lunch on this one.

The regular commenters are the ones out to lunch. This New York Times piece kinda, sorta, not quite, but ... well, not that we're condoning what he did.... routine is all too typical of the treatment minority mass killers get and white ones don't.

Anonymous said...

Dorner's opinions on the racial dynamics in LAPD should serve as a warning to Americans on the future that awaits America if nothing is done to end america's foolish immigration policy. Multiracial empires have always ended in calamity.

DYork said...

Author Adam Nagourney is a living cartoon stereotype of the NYTimes.

He's Jewish, gay, leftist and writes a story blaming Whitey for blacky's crimes.

Another sociopath who types for a living.

Truth said...

Pure nonsense, Steve; attention is always paid to their motives..when they live. I guess you're going to say you never heard about McVeigh and the unibomber's motives?


Why be so evasive? The issue isn't media "paying attention to motives". The issue is media SUBMISSIVENESS toward if not sympathy for the motives of black perps in ways they never are toward White perps.

How do you not get that?

Anonymous said...

Dorner's opinions on the racial dynamics in LAPD should serve as a warning to Americans on the future that awaits America if nothing is done to end america's foolish immigration policy. Multiracial empires have always ended in calamity.

A minority-majority police departament full of blacks, mexicans, lesbians, asians and who know what else wasn't heaven on Earth?

DAMN!

Gall said...

From the award-winning Atlanta Black Star Support for Dorner Spreads Across the Internet.

Fun said...

The regular commenters are the ones out to lunch. This New York Times piece kinda, sorta, not quite, but ... well, not that we're condoning what he did.... routine is all too typical of the treatment minority mass killers get and white ones don't.

I.e. the exact same routine that happens in the alt-right blogosphere when a nerdy white guy massacres a bunch of people, despite the perp being obviously insane and not simply acting out of the pain of being a "beta male" or "oppressed by NAMs" or "political correctness".

It's almost as if certain bloggers decided they wanted be a bizarro reflection of the shallow MSM, rather than accurately describe reality.

Also there are differences between how people respond to workplace shootings vs. public shootings. Recent white shooters were far more likely to frag random, unrelated people and thus elicit a more fearful response amongst the general public. The minorities that followed that pattern, like the DC snipers, were treated similarly.

a very knowing American said...

Assignment:

Compare and contrast the Los Angeles Police Department and race relations and the celebrity culture of Los Angeles as depicted in Christopher Dorner's work, with the Miami Police Department and race relations and the celebrity culture of Miami as depicted in Tom Wolfe's novel "Back to Blood."

Extra credit: compare how Dorner and Wolfe have been reviewed in the New York Times and other publications.

89.3 The Komissar said...

Not that 89.3FM KPCC (SoCal Public Radio) approves, no sirree bob, but Some cheer on fugitive Christopher Dorner with anti-cop, gun control, race agendas.

Anonymous said...

Dorner's opinions on the racial dynamics in LAPD should serve as a warning to Americans on the future that awaits America if nothing is done to end america's foolish immigration policy. Multiracial empires have always ended in calamity. This is true, but blacks usually have a chip on their shoulder.
2/9/13, 12:04 PM

J'Accuse! said...

Video of some great leading questions put to LAPD assault victim Christopher Gettler HERE.
And a super cogent analysis of the video HERE.
Obvious to any sane person that the l'affaire Dorner is a massive racist conspiracy.

Mr. Anon said...

"Fun said...

I.e. the exact same routine that happens in the alt-right blogosphere when a nerdy white guy massacres a bunch of people, despite the perp being obviously insane and not simply acting out of the pain of being a "beta male" or "oppressed by NAMs" or "political correctness"."

No, you are entirely wrong. Neither at this site nor at any of the other HBD-friendly sites I've seen did the murderer in Tucson or the one in Newtown (I refuse to mention their names) or any other white rampage killer get even a remotely sympathetic hearing.

Anonymous said...

Notes toward a successful spree killing:

1a) Melanin injections
b) Allegations of racism and institutional misconduct
2) State training
3) Display of outraged victimhood to evoke public sympathy
4) Verbose manifesto with celebrity shoutouts

and most importantly,

5) Provoke fumbling misplaced reaction, and successfully elude law enforcement to build folk-hero cred

Anonymous said...

I can imagine an OJ-style slow speed chase conclusion to this with a mob on the street cheering him on. The guy is a grandstander.

Dennis Dale said...

Violent wackos aren't very interesting or important in themselves. What is interesting and important are the lessons that can be learned from analyzing how the media eventually integrates the various vicious oddballs into The Narrative.

Absolutely. Dorner is not at all complex--and that's what's interesting. It's what this unexceptional naif has done with all the lies he's been fed. Dorner is a test bed for the effect of radical racial socialization on the average idiot.

Recall that Omar Thornton wasn't spurred by "anti-racism" either. He was motivated by personal rage; he took up the "racism" angle as a post-hoc justification. What I found fascinating was how he seemed to genuinely believe in the power of his accusations to absolve him in the eyes of the public. And we saw how the media thought he might be right.

ATBOTL said...

The LAPD has used police state tactics that wouldn't fly in other parts of the country for a very, very long time.

Anonymous said...

The 2013 Torrance Police Department expended about the same amount of firepower on those two poor ladies delivering newspapers as those 1934 cops expended on Bonnie & Clyde.

The difference is that the cops who shot Bonnie & Clyde were better shots.

Compare:

http://www.trbimg.com/img-51142e9d/turbine/lat-bcpix-la0008171550-20130206/500/500x305

http://texashideout.tripod.com/Bonnie_Clyde_Car_1.jpg

Alice said...

I'm with M. This is an interesting story on many levels, and the fact that Dorner is sympathetic to *many* people, of every race, is part of the interesting part.

Dorner's manifesto basically declares that there's a war on between those in power and those not, because those in power have betrayed the people. And he's here to equalize the fight. Which is the story Mr. Sailer here is telling too, though with a slightly different cast of characters, but not by much.

DOrner's manifesto says that we no longer trust are authorities. The mask is set aside, maybe permanently now.

What's more interesting is how he's in the OODA loop of the LAPD, enough that they are showing their incompetence on a national live televised scale.

Dorner specifically states in his manifesto that noncombatants in his war shouldn't help the police because they wouldn't help the innocent. and lo! they prove him right in spectacular fashion.

They guy may be deluded, but he just seems angry and pushed to the point of having nothing left to lose. Nothing like the ravings of the VA tech shooter or Loughner or the unabomber. he's quite intelligent, but mad. and there are millions like him.

this is a case where everything Sailer's been warning of is coming to pass: the elites poisoned the well, and Dorner intends to make them drink from it.

There's no way to stop hundreds of Dorners, not without massive martial law. If it comes to that, it's going to be difficult for those of us who are trying to stay alive not to end up siding with the Dorners against the elites.

Harry Baldwin said...

Just came across
this article, which justifies Steve's suspicions:

"LAPD to reopen probe into fugitive ex-cop's firing

"BIG BEAR LAKE, Calif. (AP) — The hunt for a former Los Angeles police officer suspected in three killings continued in snow-covered mountains Saturday as the LAPD's chief said he would reopen the disciplinary case that led to the fugitive's firing and new details emerged of the evidence he left behind.

"Officials will re-examine the allegations by Christopher Dorner, 33, that his law enforcement career was undone by racist colleagues, Police Chief Charlie Beck said. While he promised to hear out Dorner if he surrenders, Beck stressed that he was ordering a review of his 2007 case because he takes the allegation of racism in his department seriously.

"'I do this not to appease a murderer. I do it to reassure the public that their police department is transparent and fair in all the things we do,' the chief said in a statement."

Etc., etc.

Golden Bear said...

Dennis Dale said:
"Dorner is a test bed for the effect of radical racial socialization on the average idiot."

Dennis, you and your fellow racists idiots, buried deep in your fox holes of hate, lobbing racial grenades, are so boring. Not everything is about race (Steve doesn't even believe that).

Dorner's case is about how ethical people are often crapped on in this society. The reason so many people tacitly or explicitly support him (while decrying the innocents' deaths) is because Americans feel they are constantly crapped on by the wealthy and the powerful. And cops are the guardians of the wealthy and powerful.

Dorner is one man who just got fed up, and, despite the tragic deaths of Monica Quan, et al., people UNDERSTAND HIS RAGE.

Cail Corishev said...

I think it's in one of John Sanford's (an ex-cop) novels that an ex-cop detective says most cops are of one of two types: they were bullies as children, and wanted to keep being bullies as adults, or they were the bullied and wanted to turn the tables as adults.

None of my encounters with police in my lifetime have convinced me he was wrong.

The Anti-Gnostic said...

Dorner's case is about how ethical people are often crapped on in this society. The reason so many people tacitly or explicitly support him (while decrying the innocents' deaths) is because Americans feel they are constantly crapped on by the wealthy and the powerful. And cops are the guardians of the wealthy and powerful.

Dorner is one man who just got fed up, and, despite the tragic deaths of Monica Quan, et al., people UNDERSTAND HIS RAGE.


That's heartwarming. But I don't think you are going to be so enthralled when the truce which keeps a deeply fractured society like the US together starts breaking down.

Are you ready for a world where Dorner, the DC snipers, Mcveigh, Kaczinsky are no longer lone wolf outliers? I'll confess I'm not. Dorner is another wake-up call for people like me.

Anonymous said...

People do realize that interactions with police especially if you aren't for instance robbing a bank or being interviewed for beating up your gf (I know fat chance with this crew) are pretty much defined by the initial attitude you cop with police. It wouldn't surprise me that the cop haters here on this board are middle school bullies who couldn't pass the police test, or nerds who are constantly trying to establish a modicum of alphaness by copping an attitude with cops. Cops aren't heroes granted and alot of them are incompetent like in an profession, but in how many other professions do you have douchebag libertarians trying to get on Bradley ralko pushing your buttons.

Truth said...

"They were never presented sympathetically. In fact, they were presented as evidence of just how dangerous (ahem) certain (ahem) political agendas are."

That's funny, the main thing I remember about the unibomber was how brilliant he was, and how he could type 20,000 words on a manual typwriter without making an error, and how this poor man who just wanted to be left alone had a legitimate axe to grind against modern technology.

-We don't see things the way they are, we see them the way we are.
-Anais Nin.

Truth said...

"Why be so evasive? The issue isn't media "paying attention to motives". The issue is media SUBMISSIVENESS toward if not sympathy for the motives of black perps in ways they never are toward White perps."

If you gentlemen would like to discuss issues on an adult level, I'm here for that, unfortunately, your constant "OOOOh, the man be holdin' us down" whining is incredibly tired, childish, and and straight out sissified. You guys should be embarrassed, Reverend Al Sharpton would tell you to stop whining.

Cail Corishev said...

People do realize that interactions with police especially if you aren't for instance robbing a bank or being interviewed for beating up your gf (I know fat chance with this crew) are pretty much defined by the initial attitude you cop with police.

That's true of all interactions between human beings, and it goes both ways. But with normal people, if you're a little irritable, they might give you the benefit of the doubt. There's give and take. With cops, it's all up to you to make sure you don't irritate them. If they are having a bad day, you're just screwed.

Actually, all my dealings with police have been cordial, but that's because I'm careful to adopt a pleasant, affable (if not completely submissive) attitude, and I've never committed a crime more serious than traffic stuff. However, I frequently get a vibe that says the guy is on edge and would be happier if I gave him a reason to be unpleasant. I get that vibe from non-police sometimes too, of course, but with cops it's the default.

Paradoxically, the worst seems to be a cop behind a desk, where there's absolutely no excuse for it -- he's not in a dangerous situation where he has to worry that I might have a gun stashed under the seat. The last time I dealt with a cop behind a desk, he had me sit and wait for a few minutes while he did nothing, then after he deigned to help me, he turned around in the middle of things to shoot the breeze with a couple of buddies who appeared to be on an extended coffee break. He was letting me know that he was in charge, and that I had to smile and suck it up or he could make my life worse. That seems to just be part of the job.

Frank said...

"That's funny, the main thing I remember about the unibomber was how brilliant he was, and how he could type 20,000 words on a manual typwriter without making an error, and how this poor man who just wanted to be left alone had a legitimate axe to grind against modern technology."

You are correct that the Unabomber Manifesto is something to marvel at. However, he was really more of a serial killer than a mass killer, as his bombings took place over a span of years.

I disagree that the media was as anxious to speculate on or justify his motives as you seem to think. If I recall correctly, he tried more than once to explain himself, and have the media publish his manifesto, and they refused. He had to threaten to kill more people to get them to do anything.

The media as a whole was never sympathetic to Timothy McVeigh either. About the only person who was was Gore Vidal, interestingly enough.

Frank said...

Golden Bear said:

"Dorner's case is about how ethical people are often crapped on in this society. The reason so many people tacitly or explicitly support him (while decrying the innocents' deaths) is because Americans feel they are constantly crapped on by the wealthy and the powerful. And cops are the guardians of the wealthy and powerful.

Dorner is one man who just got fed up, and, despite the tragic deaths of Monica Quan, et al., people UNDERSTAND HIS RAGE."

Uh huh.

Have you not yet figured out that nearly everyone considers himself to be an ethical person, and that if they have any grievance against someone, they generally attribute it to being unfairly "crapped on"?

It's quite rare that someone will go on a rampage and then explain it by saying "I killed all those people because I am either a horrible person, or just plain nuts, and felt like killing some people.".

Timothy McVeigh thought that he was an ethical person who was being crapped on by the government. George Sodini thought that he was an ethical person who was crapped on by feminists. Anders Breivik thought that he was an ethical man whose people were being crapped on by his government. Seung-Hui Cho thought that he was an ethical person who was being crapped on by... well... somebody. He was never very clear on that. Major Nidal Hassan thought that he was being crapped on by the Army and the infidels.

al-Qaeda thinks that they are ethical people being crapped on by the infidels also. John Wilkes Booth thought that he was an ethical man being crapped on by "tyrants". Thanks to Jack Ruby, we'll never really know what Lee Harvey Oswald's motivations were, but due to his being a Communist, and his general life story, it's fairly safe to assume that he just felt crapped on in general.

And, of course, there is that rather famous case of the young Austrian man who wrote a whole seven-hundred-page book about all the crap he had had crapped on him, written while he was in prison for "political crimes".

The difference is, people don't, generally speaking, take these killers at their word. In this case, they are. But why? What makes you so sure that events happened the way he said they did? Do you think he's one of those guys who is willing to kill innocent women, but would never stoop to bending the truth a bit?

On the other hand, it's a documented fact that the government laid siege to the Branch Davidians and killed innocent people at Ruby Ridge, but that doesn't make most people UNDERSTAND Timothy McVeigh's RAGE, despite decrying the innocent people killed.

It's sort of silly to pretend that it's not partially because of race here. But I don't think it's the whole story. After all, the irony is that two of the only killers to ever actually say that they were just killing people for the sake of killing people were the Columbine shooters. And people went ahead and said that they were just lashing out in revenge over being bullied anyway, despite the fact that they never even claimed this themselves.

So I guess I don't know.

Still, you should probably drop the whole "police as protectors of the wealthy and powerful" crap. The wealthy and powerful have their own private security. Ask any cop you want, and they'll be happy to tell you that they spend most of their time protecting poor people from other poor people.

Mr. Anon said...

"Truth said...

If you gentlemen would like to discuss issues on an adult level, I'm here for that, unfortunately, your constant "OOOOh, the man be holdin' us down" whining is incredibly tired, childish, and and straight out sissified. You guys should be embarrassed, Reverend Al Sharpton would tell you to stop whining."

What's your f**king problem? Nobody here is saying that. We're not even ragging on the guy because he's black. That's not at issue here. We're criticizing him because he's a not very bright, hyper-agressive, murderous asshole. A guy like this could have been a white guy. White, black, what's the difference, in this case? He snuffed out the life of a twenty-something year-old girl who had her whole life ahead of her, because her father wasn't able to keep him from getting fired.

He's a vicious dickhead. White-and-black really has nothing to do with this case.

NOTA said...

anon 8:35:

Or, maybe we've noticed that ugly pattern where:

a. Some guy gets arrested for resisting arrest, and shows up at the jail missing teeth and covered in brusies.

b. The police produce a whole story that makes him out to be entirely the author of his own misfortune.

c. Cellphone video emerges of the guy having the mortal shit beaten out of him by half a dozen cops.

d. Suddenly, charges are dropped, and a couple years later, the city settles with the victim for some large amount of money.

A few such cases, alongside a pattern of policemen arresting people for taking cellphone video, can go a long way toward making middle-class white guys like me really skeptical of the police.

David Davenport said...

Given that he's one week out from the navy, I have to wonder if he is the posterboy for Middle Eastern war PTSD and the generaln failure of military mental health services.

Navy reserve, rear area, no combat while in the Nav. No traumatic stress siutations.

And is he killing people with navy guns?

No.

Dennis Dale said...

Dorner's case is about how ethical people are often crapped on in this society. The reason so many people tacitly or explicitly support him (while decrying the innocents' deaths) is because Americans feel they are constantly crapped on by the wealthy and the powerful. And cops are the guardians of the wealthy and powerful.

Dorner reveres the wealthy and powerful--he worships celebrity. He probably thinks his rightful place is among celebrities. Maybe he even fantasizes about cashing this in, like De Niro in King of Comedy (determined psycho kidnaps and ransoms his way into show biz; of course as Sailer points out Dorner likely hasn't seen this one). Maybe the Falling Down meme you've taken up here has encouraged him.

I suspect delusions of grandeur. Note how Dorner always addresses celebrities directly in his burblings, yo Piers, my man...
Of course Dorner is going to teach us nothing--do they ever? America will look into his dull eyes and turn away with a shudder, not for the evil she sees there but for the mediocrity, the familiarity of it. In the end evil is dull and commonplace, as dull and commonplace as Ellen and Anderson Cooper; and that's the real fright. One day it just pools up in some empty vessel like Dorner and off he goes.

Perhaps that's why you want to blame the LAPD, to find some external outrage commensurate with such bloodthirsty rage. Those dumb goat-eyes hold little promise of enlightenment, don't they?

He's Bateman I tell you, and his manifesto has meant nothing:

There are no more barriers to cross. All I have in common with the uncontrollable and the insane, the vicious and the evil, all the mayhem I have caused and my utter indifference toward it, I have now surpassed. My pain is constant and sharp and I do not hope for a better world for anyone; in fact, I want my pain to be inflicted on others. I want no one to escape, but even after admitting this there is no catharsis, my punishment continues to elude me and I gain no deeper knowledge of myself; no new knowledge can be extracted from my telling. This confession has meant nothing.