February 20, 2013

The Flight from White

"Uh, Rahm, would you mind not standing so close
 that I can hear the fierce beating of your heart?"
The young Emanuel brothers of Chicago -- Chicago Mayor Rahm (above in his Clinton Administration days), Hollywood agent Ari (the original for Jeremy Piven's Ari Gold on Entourage), and medical ethicist Ezekiel -- are depicted in Ezekiel's memoir in Vanity Fair, "Growing Up Emanuel." 

There's mention of their mother's membership in the C.O.R.E. civil rights organization in America, but less talk about their father's membership in the Irgun paramilitary / terrorist organization in Israel. 

And then there is this scene:
We understood we belonged to a minority that had suffered in the past and was still subject to discrimination and exclusion. However, change was coming fast. Jews were quickly becoming accepted into the white majority, and our parents taught us that nothing that really mattered was beyond our reach and we had little to fear as we moved through the world. We were safe in this assumption except, ironically enough, when Rahm was “black.” 
Rahm and Ari had my mother’s skin coloring. Both brothers needed just a few days in the sun to turn the color of café au lait. By the end of the summer the two of them were almost chestnut brown. With curly black hair and a broad, flat nose, Rahm could easily pass for an African-American.
We got most of our ultra-violet rays at Chicago’s Foster Avenue Beach, which became our regular summer hangout. In yet another demonstration of her confidence (today it might be called child neglect), our mother would send us off alone to spend entire summer days playing in the lake and on the sand. I led the troop down Winona, through the Foster Avenue underpass, which let us safely cross Lake Shore Drive, and then into the park, where the beach stretched northward for a quarter-mile or so. 
In this time before cell phones, our mother did not need to hear from us every half-hour to be reassured that we were O.K. As the hours passed, she somehow assumed we were fine, and for the most part, her confidence in us, and in the city, was well placed. Exceptions arose when some stranger decided to call Rahm and Ari “n******” and demand that we get off the beach.

Well, maybe.

I'm reminded of Countrywide Financial's Angelo Mozilo's assertion? belief? claim? that he was a victim of racism. The Oompa Loompa-colored Mozilo's sister claimed:
"He was always this Italian guy people didn't want to accept. When he tans he gets really dark. My mother told me that when he worked in Florida he was asked to sit in the back of the bus."

I'm starting to notice more and more of a Flight from White.

For example, Armenians in Southern California are more often drawing a verbal distinction between themselves and "whites." When I was at UCLA in the early 1980s, the star of the economics department was Fresno-born Armen Alchian, who just died at 98. There was plenty of interest in pushing diversity back then, too, but the notion that Alchian wasn't white wouldn't have occurred to anybody, just as George Deukmejian was obviously the white guy in the gubernatorial race against Tom Bradley.

In the past, lots of people emphasized their white side. For example, we don't have any Census figures for the number of Latinos in America in 1950 and 1960 because the League of United Latin American Citizens convinced the feds that Latinos should just be counted as white. Back then, Marco Rubio would have been considered as white as Judge Leander Perez was.

But, obviously, these days being white is for losers.

(Apparently not genetically, though. The New York Times relaunched its T fashion magazine last week:
The new T arrived yesterday. I’m impressed by its heft. As I looked through the magazine, I was surprised at Deborah Needleman’s choices. There is a complete absence of any people of color in articles or fashion shoots. I assume the ads cannot be controlled, but I saw only one African-American and one Asian-American among the thousands of models in the ads. The T doesn’t look like my neighborhood or America. [T Magazine’s New Editor Pledges to Make Future Issues More Diverse])

So, I expect that more and more you'll see Caucasian people dropping contrived hints that they aren't really white, until only Prince Charles is left.

Which white group will be the last to defect? I'm guessing Poles. They don't seem terribly opportunistic. But this trend will test even their loyalty and common sense. I expect in a couple of decades to be reading about how even Poles are now identifying as part-Mongolian Eurasians.

192 comments:

Anonymous said...

C'mon, Steve, you know this is bullshit. Are your fans so stupid and so enamoured of their persecution complex that they won't see right through this?

Gloria

Ray Sawhill said...

I have several Jewish friends who tell me they don't consider themselves white.

SFG said...

Ray: yeah. I'm half-Jewish, and always thought I was white. I was kind of perplexed why the KKK didn't, to be honest, but chalked it up to these local ethnic animosities various groups have.

Half Sigma aka Lion of the Blogosphere seems to think he's white, and the Israelis seem to think they're white when they toss the Africans out, so I think it depends on your politics.

As for Western culture--who wrote the Old Testament, the Germans?

Anonymous said...

I AM A NEANDI!!

Tony Tea said...

Black is the new white.

Anonymous said...

Which white group will be the last to defect? I'm guessing Poles. They don't seem terribly opportunistic. But this trend will test even their loyalty and common sense. I expect in a couple of decades to be reading about how even Poles are now identifying as part-Mongolian Eurasians.

Some Poles have already done so.

I'm part Polish on my mother's side (she has a great grandmother from Poland) and in her family they believe that they are part Mongolian.

Unlike the Emanuel brothers, as far as I know, we keep it to ourselves.

Risto

Anonymous said...

In the pic, is that Emanuel with the 'first black president'?

This is why I don't trust the polls about who-is-gay.

Whites say they are not white, and non-gays say they are gay.

If Elizabeth Warren is an Indian, I'm a Martian.

anony-mouse said...

1/ Prince Charles? He's the darkest in his family. I'm betting on Harry.

2/ Lenny Kravitz, Lisa Bonnet, Drake, Rashida Jones, Rain Pryor, Tracee Ross, Lani Guinier, Rebecca Walker.

Well Sammy was more talented than Joey.

Anonymous said...

Bitwa pod Legnicą: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Legnica

William said...

According to Noel Ignatiev, my Irish ancestors "became" white, so I guess that I can eventually un-become white.

Black Irish, here I come!

Anonymous said...

In the 1970s Mexicans were considered white in Chicago. Frank Colin(née Cohen) of that famous band of Chicago Nazis (see Blues Brothers and Skokie March) had Mexican members-one of whom ran for 10th Ward Alderman against "Fast Eddie" Vrdolyak. Back then the Chicago Mexican population was largely concentrated in the area of now long deindustrialized steel mill district of South Chicago.

Anonymous said...

"White" really means European, not Caucasian.

Rollo said...

i'll believe armenians are white when a kardashian dates a white guy

Steve Sailer said...

Angelo Mozilo's not European?

Anonymous said...

He's probably not even as dark as he shows up in Google images. Remember Romney's spray tan?

Vardy Collins said...

I've always thought the Melungeon fad was driven largely by white people excited over the possibility they might have some of that exotic nonwhite blood.

anony-mouse said...

Look at the bright side (is that allowed here?).

Those Whites like Rahm who revel in their non-existent Blackness will find themselves in thankless jobs like mayor of Chicago (yuck) or as laughable hip-hop artists (Ice-Ice baby), or applying for jobs wearing dreadlocks.

Those Whites who are well, simply White will simply get rich by inventing things, etc.

Anonymous said...

Mozilo is European, but he doesn't look like the typical European.

Chicago said...

Somehow, the Rahm incident at the beach seems fabricated just like Hillary claimed to have dodged bullets at a Bosnian airport. Sounds nifty but is it true? Picturing that rich midget with a dark tan just doesn't bring up an image of some soul brother no matter how hard one tries to force it.
Him and all the rest are what might be called 'grievance collectors'. People like this remember every slight, every insult ever thrown their way throughout their entire lives. Full grown adults recount their hurt feelings from when they were in grammar school as though it happened two days ago. They'll never let go of their infantile thumb-sucking. If the stories aren't good enough then there's the temptation to embellish or fabricate some good ones.

Anonymous said...

The incident Mozilo had with the bus doesn't mean that the bus driver actually thought he was black. It could have just been petty prejudice against someone who looked vaguely foreign in a crowd of sunburnt and freckled rednecks.

Anonymous said...

The Mozilo bus incident could also have occurred not because people thought he was black but because he looked like an out-of-towner, a Northerner, etc. Florida was a rural backwater then (much of it still is). Hicks can be friendly but they can also be wary of outsiders, even if the outsiders are of the same race or ethnicity.

a very knowing American said...

The Polish nobility in early modern times claimed to be descended from Sarmatians, Iranic steppe warriors whose later descendants are the Alans and Ossetians. Sarmatism flourished particularly as Poland went into decline, and on some accounts was associated with growing intolerance and opposition to universalist, Enlightenment values. A revival of Sarmatism sounds like just the ticket as the West abandons liberalism for multiculturalism.

Anonymous said...

One of my best friends from high school was the son on a Lebanese immigrant. His father and his uncles came to the U.S. in the 1930s and after a couple of years in Chicago moved to the South and started up first s store and then a textile factory.

At the height of Jim Crow, in the most segregated place in the nation, they married local white girls, became by turn heads of the local chamber of commerce, served as deacons in the largest Baptist church in town. There was never any question they were white.

My friend's daughter, who is only one-quarter Lebanese and the rest generic white American Protestant, says she isn't white, she's an Arab.

Anonymous said...

If you aren't at work, do a GIS for model Britany Nola. She says her father is black, her mother is white, and she describes herself as a person of color. You be the judge.

Anonymous said...

This is the wrong place for this comment, but have you read Ann Coulter's latest piece? It's basically Steve Sailer through and through.

Without a doubt, you're an influential commentator...

...it'd be nice, however, if that fact would occasionally be acknowledged by the pundits who repeat your arguments....

Anonymous said...

I'm 49 and this seems to me the single biggest change in race definition in my lifetime. When I was a kid, much of the world (not just the US) was white. Spanish-surnamed people in the US certainly were. People in the Middle East, North Africa, Central Asia: white. People in India were white even though some had very dark skin. I thought "Orientals" - what we now call Asians - were a different race, but I never thought Ghandi was a different race from Irish-American me.

Now, we hear that the war in Iraq was a war on non-whites. I knew things had come to a head a few years ago when the great player for France's national soccer team, Zinedine Zidane was in the news. I was astonished when the press said he was not white. He's of Algerian Berber ancestry, but in today's world, that makes him not white. Amazing.

Hunsdon said...

A very knowing American said: The Polish nobility in early modern times claimed to be descended from Sarmatians

Hunsdon fumed: That was going to be my line! For some reason, I associate Sarmatism with the era of Stefan Bathory, which is a little early for Poland's decline . . . but only a little.

Anonymous said...

Jews have always used their antagonistic relationship with the larger Caucasian civilization they live in to great success. I guess for the Emmanuel family after the threat from white people was gone they needed something to keep the fire burning so they created this "you look black to white people" story. The white population is a population non-whites "need to overcome", in their heads.

Crescendo said...

Angelo Mozilo

That's one dark white boy. No way he's passing the paper bag test. Maybe there's a reason why he and Rahm were so corrupt... On the other hand, maybe it could be a benefit if they went to prison like they should...

Frank L. said...

"
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The incident Mozilo had with the bus doesn't mean that the bus driver actually thought he was black."

-If it occurred at all, it occurred not because they thought he was black, its because they thought he looked like a damn Cheeto

Soul Sam said...

Actually, lot of young Scots-Irish these days identify themselves as Asian.

Anonymous said...

"This is the wrong place for this comment, but have you read Ann Coulter's latest piece? It's basically Steve Sailer through and through."

Coulter follows Steve on Twitter - that's quite an endorsement.

She is the bravest of the pundits. I will never understand why she gets so much bashing here.

From one anonymous to another.

Anonymous said...

Would any black person fall for the BS that Rahm Emanuel with a tan is black? puhleez

AmericanGoy said...

Proud American of Polish descent here.

You're spot on.

AmericanGoy said...

To anonymous who wrote:

"Some Poles have already done so.

I'm part Polish on my mother's side (she has a great grandmother from Poland) and in her family they believe that they are part Mongolian."

Of course.

Look at the round faces of many poles (mine included) and how the Poles were always superb horse riders, especially in combat conditions.

Mongolian genes... Mongols killed and/or raped everything in their path, women and horses included...

I am assuming my great great great great... etc etc... grandmother had the misfortune to experience some Mongolian horsemanship (again, the apocryphal stories are that Mongols on the march did everything on horseback - their food storage was underneath their Medieval version saddle, their kumis alcohol skin bottle was also located there, within easy reach.

A woman could be snatched up on a horse, with the horse motion providing extra help of course, and after the fact thrown.

So the Mongol horseman could patrol, march, eat and f**k all on a horse.

Multitasking lot, these Mongols.

Also, Europe's first experience of non-White multiculturalism (if one considers the Alans, Magyars, etc etc White).

Anonymous said...

I'll echo SFG. This anecdote is politically motivated and intended for political impact. It tells us less about how the Emanuels see themselves than how they want to project themselves to certain constituencies. Moreover, it tells us little about how ordinary less political Jews see themselves.

Anonymous said...

Majority of Americans Illegal Infiltrators Should Be Deported

http://news.yahoo.com/majority-u-citizens-illegal-immigrants-deported-010930979.html

Rohan Swee said...

The incident Mozilo had with the bus doesn't mean that the bus driver actually thought he was black. It could have just been petty prejudice against someone who looked vaguely foreign in a crowd of sunburnt and freckled rednecks.

Or, far more plausibly, the incident on the bus never happened. What was the year in which this was alleged to have happened? Sometime in the '70s? '80s? I was living there, and nobody was being asked to sit in the back of the bus in Florida by then. But it is the sort of bullshit gullible Yankees would believe. (Hell, many New Yorker readers would probably swallow it if they were told it happened last year.)

Anonymous said...

"I will never understand why she gets so much bashing here."

Read the first chapter of MUGGED.

Maybe it should be called ATLAS MUGGED.

Anonymous said...

Well, white has come to mean a very specific thing these days, and in the cultural sense Armenians, with their braggadocio and gold chains, really are not "white" the way it is culturally understood in modern America.

Which is not to say that whites monopolize all types of class and intellect - there is clearly an Asian way of being smart that would never be called "white" - and there are forms of crassness and vulgarity that are exclusively "white".

I think what's changed is that tribal identification of whatever kind has become much, much more significant than before - there is no longer one large umbrella group that pretty much everyone seeks to belong to.

In the absence of an invitation to join the majority group, even groups that consider themselves inferior will seek to maintain their distinct identity, out of "pride". Citizens of Third World countries often have incredible "pride" in their country.

And lets face it, even though today whites don't insist on immigrants assimilating out of respect for immigrant identity, it can also be seen as a withdrawal of an invitation on the part of whites to become part of their group, and I am pretty sure that many immigrants do feel this way - that whites have withdrawn their invitation.

And in fact, here in Williamsburg the clubs and bars on the weekends are nearly 100% white - even Asians are a very tiny minority. A black friend of mine who lives in Manhattan once came with me and felt very uncomfortable, although no one was rude to him in any way. It would seem, then, that by intention or not, whites have actually become rather exclusive, perhaps in a rather funny way because of the liberal intention to "show respect" to immigrants by not asking them to assimilate. And others are picking up on this and emphasizing their own identities, as people do in these situation.

Anonymous said...

Stoddard's assessment of Pan-Slavism...

"While Pan-Germanism was mainly responsible for precipitating Armageddon with all its disastrous consequences, it was Russian Pan-Slavism which dealt the first shrewd blow to white solidarity. Toward the close of the nineteenth century, Pan-Slavism’s “Eastern” wing led by Prince Ukhtomsky and other chauvinists of his ilk, went so far in its imperialistic obsession as actually to deny Russia’s white blood. These Pan-Slavists boldly proclaimed the morbid, mystical dogma that Russia was Asiatic, not European, and thereupon attempted to seize China as a lever for upsetting, first the rest of Asia, and then the non-Russian white world - elegantly described as “the rotten west.” The white Power immediately menaced was, of course, England, who in acute fear for her Indian Empire, promptly riposted by allying herself with Japan. Russia was diplomatically isolated and militarily beaten in the Russo-Japanese War. Thus the Russo-Japanese War, that destroyer of white prestige whose ominous results we have already noted, was precipitated mainly by the reckless short-sightedness of white men themselves."

Slampo said...

"Well, maybe" is right.

Anonymous said...

I'm half-Jewish, and always thought I was white. I was kind of perplexed why the KKK didn't,

I don't think it was Jews in general that weren't accepted. It was Northern Jews during the civil rights era that came down South to agitate that they detested. Southern Jews got along well with their neighbors. As many point out the Secretary of State during the Confederacy was a Jew.

PBS ran a documentary in 1999 called The Delta Jews about the Jewish community that has existed since before the Civil War in the Mississippi Delta. Very interesting to hear Jews with southern drawls. I remember one guy saying that this is the heart of the Bible Belt and since we went to Temple on Saturday, the neighbors treated us well.

elvisd said...

I've always thought the Melungeon fad was driven largely by white people excited over the possibility they might have some of that exotic nonwhite blood.

It's just another spin on the crypto-Cherokee thing that you see in the South, only more SWPL, because it's more obscure and archival in nature (you know how SWPL's love to "uncover" and "reclaim" things) .

Anonymous said...

Regarding the silly "whiteness studies" thesis that some European groups were not recognized as white in the past, there's a pretty good recent study where it is sensibly concluded that the whole thesis is nonsense. Quoting from the conclusions section:

In stark contrast [to the black-white boundary], there was essentially no SEE-white boundary [SEE=Southern and Eastern Europeans]. Contrary to the arguments of many whiteness studies historians and the social scientists who have drawn on their work, we contend that wherever white was a meaningful category, SEEs were almost always included within it, even if they were simultaneously positioned below NWEs [=Northern and Western Europeans]. Some individuals and an occasional institution questioned—or appeared to question—the whiteness of SEEs and other Europeans, blurring the boundary in limited contexts. But the categorization of SEEs as nonwhite was neither widely recognized nor institutionalized. In fact, quite the opposite. Federal agencies including the census, the military, the immigration service, the Civilian Conservation Corps, and others all counted by race and placed SEEs firmly within the white category. No court ever denied Europeans the right to naturalize as free white persons at least in part because race scientists and the “common man” placed SEEs within the boundaries of whiteness. Furthermore, when SEEs saw Whites Only signs in movie theaters, restaurants, swimming pools, playgrounds, buses and streetcars, and at places of employment, they could—with near certainty—be confident that those signs were not meant to exclude them. Similarly, when housing covenants restricted the sale of homes to whites, when unions declared that their membership was restricted to white workers, when schools declared that their doors were open to white children only, and where marriage laws prohibited miscegenation, SEEs quickly learned that the category “white” included them, too.

Anonyia said...


"One of my best friends from high school was the son on a Lebanese immigrant. His father and his uncles came to the U.S. in the 1930s and after a couple of years in Chicago moved to the South and started up first s store and then a textile factory.

At the height of Jim Crow, in the most segregated place in the nation, they married local white girls, became by turn heads of the local chamber of commerce, served as deacons in the largest Baptist church in town. There was never any question they were white."

There is a strong Lebanese presence throughout the Gulf coast. As you said, none of them were ever considered non-white. Even Cubans, South Americans and even Mexicans were also considered white until recently around here. Of course now I have friend who by virtue of Greek and purported "Gypsy" ancestry, does not consider herself white. Another woman who had a Japanese grandmother considers herself Asian despite the fact that she is 75 % white and looks it. She never even mentions the white part of her heritage, so I wonder if her 1/8 Japanese children will also identify as Asian. Her house is decorated with a Japanese theme.

JP said...

There is nothing new about Italians not considering themselves white many times those who do consider themselves to be white have a complex relationship with it. I am Black so they are white folk to me, but sometimes you meet some that'll argue different.

Anonymous said...

Somehow, the Rahm incident at the beach seems fabricated just like Hillary claimed to have dodged bullets at a Bosnian airport.

What about the story of Hillary as a teenager baby sitting migrant Mexican children? That sounds fabricated too, but it is listed on her biography.

As a young woman, Hillary Rodham worked as a babysitter both after school and during her vacation breaks, sometimes watching the children of migrant Mexicans brought to the Chicago area for itinerant work.

Evil Sandmich said...

If a person can make a 9pm rib run from downtown Cleveland to Hot Sauce Williams and back without being molested in any way, then I might consider them to be non-white; otherwise I'd say that they're just engaging in some screwy form of braggadocio. Put up or shut up fake non-whities!

Auntie Analogue said...


The incessant drumbeat of the Multi-Culti-Diversity Fairytale Narrative has splintered the Melting Pot, whose dispersing contents now run amok grasping at how they can stack themselves up on the Victim Group Race-Preference sweepstakes totem pole.

Anonymous said...

"The racial worldview of F. Scott Fitzgerald"

http://racehist.blogspot.cz/2010/03/racial-worldview-of-f-scott-fitzgerald.html#more

"In May 1921, soon after his unhappy first visit to Europe, he wrote to Edmund Wilson:

God damn the continent of Europe. It is of merely antiquarian interest. Rome is only a few years behind Tyre and Babylon. The negroid streak creeps northward to defile the Nordic race. Already the Italians have the souls of blackamoors. Raise the bars of immigration and permit only Scandinavians, Teutons, Anglo-Saxons and Celts to enter. France made me sick. Its silly pose as the thing the world has to save. I think it's a shame that England and America didn't let Germany conquer Europe. It's the only thing that would have saved the fleet of tottering old wrecks. (Letters 326)

Fitzgerald recognized the racism implicit in these possibly jocular statements and seemed to abhor it. "My reactions," he wrote "were all philistine, anti-socialistic, provincial and racially snobbish." Yet he continued in the same vein as previously: "I believe at last in the white man's burden. We are as far above the modern Frenchman as he is above the Negro. Even in art!" And so on (Letters 326).

[Alan Margolies. The Maturing of F. Scott Fitzgerald. Twentieth Century Literature, Vol. 43, No. 1 (Spring, 1997), pp. 75-93.]"

Anonymous said...

Theodore Bilbo, the senator from Mississippi and Klansmen, was known for anti-Italian prejudice.

Anonymous said...

Theodore Bilbo, the senator from Mississippi and Klansmen, was known for anti-Italian prejudice.

Was the prejudice against Italians racial,or was it because they were Catholics? I think it had more to do with their religion, similarly to the way the Irish Catholics were not liked.

Steve Sailer said...

What was Senator Bilbo anyway? A Hobbit-American?

Jefferson said...

Not everybody has the same 1 universal definition of "White". This subject does not have a monolithic response from everybody.

Who is "White" varies depending on who you ask. I will give you all 2 examples that I have come across on the internet, when this subject comes up.




The most narrow definition of White I have read from some people on the internet is that anybody who does not look like they came straight out of Sweden, is automatically a Nonwhite Person Of Color.

The broadest definition of White I have read from some people on the internet is that anybody who does not look Black or Oriental/Pacific Islander, is automatically a "White" person.

So under that very broad definition, countries like Pakistan and Guatemala for example, would be considered "White" countries because they are neither Oriental nor Sub Saharan African countries.

My own personal definition of White is somewhere in the middle between those 2 extremes.

I suspect Steve Sailor's own personal definition of White would be somewhere in the middle as well.

Baloo said...

It's easy to forget that Judah Benjamin was an Episcopalian, like Goldwater (and more or less like Disraeli). He was quite open about being Jewish by blood, but I wonder if he would have been accepted by the Confederate leaders if he had been Jewish by religion as well. I doubt it.

SFG said...

"I don't think it was Jews in general that weren't accepted. It was Northern Jews during the civil rights era that came down South to agitate that they detested. Southern Jews got along well with their neighbors. As many point out the Secretary of State during the Confederacy was a Jew.

PBS ran a documentary in 1999 called The Delta Jews about the Jewish community that has existed since before the Civil War in the Mississippi Delta. Very interesting to hear Jews with southern drawls. I remember one guy saying that this is the heart of the Bible Belt and since we went to Temple on Saturday, the neighbors treated us well."

That I did know, actually, and I can't imagine the Southerners would be awful happy to have Northerners of any religion/ethnicity trying to mess with their social arrangements.

Anyway, lamentably, I'm pretty powerless to change anything my distant relatives are up to. It does give me a little cover to spread a little heresy on immigration among my acquaintances, but I'm not charismatic enough to do much good in that regard either.

It's too bad nobody wants to be white anymore, though. The depressing thing about reading through that old guidebook for African-Americans Slate put up a few days back was seeing how hard they were all working to act respectable. Now it's thug life and gang-banging.

JeremiahJohnbalaya said...

I'm too lazy to search for it, but I'm pretty sure I got the idea for this from around here.

Dennis Dale said...

Well the Poles already have their bludgeon, if they'd only stop being so, well, Polish, and pick it up and start swinging.

You know, Polish jokes, the historic bigotry against slavs, the fact that slavs were so associated with slavery in Europe the word slave comes from slav (indeed, Hitler hated the slavs and wanted to re-enslave them).

I'm recalling Brando as Stanley Kowalski in Streetcar shouting at Blanche, "people from Poland are called Poles, not Polacks!"
Come to think of it, Stanley is portrayed as brutish, highly-sexed and abusive. Where's the outrage?

Alas, the good Poles have the same problem as a television comedy in the Muslim world (to lift a joke from John Stewart): no Jewish writers!

That's fascinating about Fitzgerald. I recently re-read The Great Gatsby and realized I had completely forgotten he'd made Gatsby's boorish rival Tom Buchanan into a reader of Lothrop Stoddard obsessed with racial decline and hence a buffoon. A misunderstood book really. They sell it to us as a uniquely American tale of self-invention, when I see it more as a story of a decadent society in decline.

Anonymous said...

The conflicts in Europe over the past hundred years did not draw on white pride, they drew on ethnic pride. The Germans were not pumped up because they were white, they were pumped up because they were Germans. The same for the English and French.

In America these different European ethnic groups were melded into one amalgamated white ethnicity, and as a result, we've done a remarkable job of having many different ethnics and religions living peacefully side-by-side while their cousins overseas fought one another. That is something for which America doesn't get enough credit.

However, that model worked well for pre-1965 demographics. Now not so much. I've seen people I know start identify as some sort of ethnic, Polish, Italian, Greek, etc. I've noticed that groups are now giving out scholarships based upon ethnicity. I wonder if this a way to get around discrimination laws?

Anyway, if people start to separate again into ethnic groups, won't this potentially lead to more strife? Wasn't it the melding into one white category that lead to a relatively stable society? Do we really want Poles verus English verus Irish versus Germans all over again?

Anonymous said...

It's interesting that as I was reading the article I was thinking of the Poles and their nearly complete assimilation to American culture.

During the largest Polish migration to America(1890s-1920s), the prevailing culture strongly encouraged assimilation with the majority (white, Anglo) population. This is obviously far different than today when assimilation is explicitly discouraged through government programs and a larger cultural messages.

The Poles are a particularly interesting case because they seem to be the most fully assimilated of the white ethnics. While there is a highly visible Irish-American and Italian-American culture, the Polish-Americans assimilated too quickly and completely to truly have a distinct culture on a national level.

This assimilation is probably due to three factors:
1. At the time of Polish migration, Poland didn't exist as a country, being partitioned by Germany, Russia, and Austria. My guess is coming from a country under Russian occupation will give a migrant a unique sense of gratitude to his new land, and encourage assimilation.
2. Poland and the Polish, were further removed from Anglo culture than, say, the Irish. This made a blending of the two cultures more difficult, and lead more Poles to throw off the old world more completely and adopt to the ways of the New World.
3. Poles migrated in large numbers to cities in the Rust Belt and upper Midwest. Quite simply, these are not the sort of places that produce a lot of screen plays or literature that would define and bring national exposure to an ethnic group. The New York Italians, Boston Irish, and Chicago Polish weren't all that different, but one of those groups wasn't located in a traditional cultural center.
That being said, I suspect you are right that the Poles may be the last to throw off the label of white. A subtle but defining trait of Polish-American culture is a single minded, you could even say simple minded, work ethic of showing up early, going home late, and not asking too many questions. This may be why I've seen a disproportionate number of Polish-Americans in the Armed Forces. But yes, I'm guessing it will be a long time before you see Polish-Americans on the steps of the Capitol demanding government set asides for the oppressed Polish-Americans simply because they feel fortunate and proud to be Americans.

Anonymous said...

I don't think it was Jews in general that weren't accepted.

I would agree and offer in support that Henry Loeb, twice mayor of Memphis, Tennessee during the 1960's, was Jewish and pro-segregation. There was some regional variation in that Jews found more social acceptance in the Delta and Memphis than in places like Virginia, where, for instance, anti-Jewish feeling was roused against the Jewish family that purchased Monticello.

Whiskey said...

The important thing is White is a loser, culturally and demographically. No one aspires to Whiteness because Whites are the fringe of this country. The people who make things go round are Lesbians (Ellen, Rosie O'Donnell) or Black women (Oprah), people with their own TV shows. Certainly not ordinary White people.

No one wants to be part of a loser. Whites are losers. Sadly. I'm White. I don't like it. But a great part of that is that many Whites just HATE HATE HATE Whiteness. And other Whites.

The greatest political innovation was Steve noting the Hi-Low team up, elites + non-Whites against ordinary Whites. Who are the enemy and portrayed as losers culturally (TV, movies, commercials).

patrick said...

I think with Italians (as with Jews) it was a bit of both religion and perceived "racial" differences.

Anonymous said...

I thought Israel was in Asia. Asians aren't considered "White" are they?

Aaron Gross said...

Assuming this "flight from white" phenomenon really exists and is not just a few anecdotes:

Besides the obvious desire of Jews, Armenians, Lebanese, etc., to get on the right side of history, it might also be a result of the emphasis over the last two decades on the social construction of race. In today's climate, it's a short step from "race is socially constructed" (undisputed - does not rule out biological race) to "I get to decide what race I am" (uh, no).

I've noticed that some anti-Semites, such as Kevin MacDonald, also appeal to the socially-constructed aspect of their own definition of whiteness when they argue that Jews aren't white (or rather "White"). So anti-Semitic and/or Nordicist white racialists and (if these anecdotes mean anything) some of these "non-whites" themselves are both following the exact same trend: emphasis on the social aspect of race.

Anonymous said...

Majority of Americans Illegal Infiltrators Should Be Deported

When did vox populi stop our politicians from pushing their own agenda?

Anonymous said...

The Poles are a particularly interesting case because they seem to be the most fully assimilated of the white ethnics.
...
Poles migrated in large numbers to cities in the Rust Belt and upper Midwest

Keep in mind Poles did not migrate in large numbers to the USA. From 1607 on, not even 500,000 Poles have come to the USA. In fact more Salvadoran-born persons live today in the USA then all the Poles who ever came.

So a small number of immigrants is much easier to assimilate which probably explains a lot of the Polish assimilation.

Aaron Gross said...

Assuming this "flight from white" phenomenon really exists and is not just a few anecdotes:

Besides the obvious desire of Jews, Armenians, Lebanese, etc., to get on the right side of history, it might also be a result of the emphasis over the last two decades on the social construction of race. In today's climate, it's a short step from "race is socially constructed" (undisputed - does not rule out biological race) to "I get to decide what race I am" (uh, no).

I've noticed that some anti-Semites, such as Kevin MacDonald, also appeal to the socially-constructed aspect of their own definition of whiteness when they argue that Jews aren't white (or rather "White"). So anti-Semitic and/or Nordicist white racialists and (if these anecdotes mean anything) some of these "non-whites" themselves are both following the exact same trend: emphasis on the social aspect of race.

Anonymous said...

People identify with whatever is good for them to identify with. 100 years ago people like Eva Longoria and Jessica Alba would have identified as white because the winds of good fortune blew that way. (It was good to be white). Now they identify as non-white, because it is considered "good" to be non-white. Thing is they are still basically white.

Anonymous said...

There was some regional variation in that Jews found more social acceptance in the Delta and Memphis than in places like Virginia, where, for instance, anti-Jewish feeling was roused against the Jewish family that purchased Monticello.

Jews were well accepted in Virginia. Evidence of that since the early 19th Century. See, for example, the career of Solomon Jacobs.

Anonymous said...

People forget that Israel is in Asia.

Anonymous said...

Hi. I'm from Canada. Here we call black, brown or yellow people of colour, almost all of whom are recent immigrants, "visible minorities". I am not quite sure just what exactly an "invisible" minority is. (If your invisible how do they know WHAT you look like anyways?) In any case, I know a few Jews who insist they are both white AND visible minorities. Go figure!

Anonymous said...

@AaronGross

I've noticed that some anti-Semites, such as Kevin MacDonald.

Aaron,

What in your view makes Kevin MacDonald an "anti-Semite"?

Brad said...

Polish people are not white.
they didn't use to be anyways.

Historically in America what one refers to as "white" had always meant Northern European/Angelo-Saxon. Poles have vanished into the ether of mainstream American culture and are no longer foreign. That is why they are "accepted"

There is no monolithic
"white race" It is what makes American White Nationalism so pathetic. They are Mongrels.

When old timey racist America said
"The White Race" they use to be saying "Anglo American" John Smith not "Roberts and Sliverman and Dushku and Tyszkiewicz" that never happened.

If there were a flood of new Polish and Greeks I don't think conservative mainland americans would be rejoicing about having to smell all that exotic white food at the dentists office or having to listen to all that beautiful white language in the grocery aisle either.

Canadian Observer said...

If presented with information that Rahm Emanuel's father was a terrorist who supported murdering British occupation troops in the 1940's, your average North American white man would say "does not compute".

Anonymous said...

So anti-Semitic and/or Nordicist white racialists and (if these anecdotes mean anything) some of these "non-whites" themselves are both following the exact same trend: emphasis on the social aspect of race.

They appeal to genetics rather than social or cultural aspects.

Anonymous said...

People forget that Israel is in Asia.

Which means what exactly in the context of Ashkenazim like Rahm Emanuel, none of whose ancestors have been born there for nearly 2000 years? Asia is a large place, with Caucasoids in the western part, Mongoloids in the Eastern part and a gradient of phenotypes in locations between the geographic extremes. On the basis of autosomal DNA analysis, Ashkenazim demonstrate a mixture of Middle Eastern and southern European alleles.

Anonymous said...

I have definitely noticed this. I am part Arab but look white. Among Americans I've noticed that whenever I mentioned this, the white people around me started listing their non-white credentials ("I'm 1/16th Cherokee!")

It took me a long time to realize that people were percieving it as a boast and trying to either defend themselves or outdo me, because I thought that Arabs were far from a trendy/popular race in America. It seems like anything is better than being "generic white".

Seneca said...

"That's fascinating about Fitzgerald. I recently re-read The Great Gatsby and realized I had completely forgotten he'd made Gatsby's boorish rival Tom Buchanan into a reader of Lothrop Stoddard obsessed with racial decline and hence a buffoon. A misunderstood book really. They sell it to us as a uniquely American tale of self-invention, when I see it more as a story of a decadent society in decline."

Can't it be both ... you know like a desert topping and a floor wax?

Saturday Night Live - Shimmer Floor Wax - Video - NBC.com
www.nbc.com/saturday-night-live/video/...floor-wax/1056743/

Anonymous said...

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/columnists/ct-met-kass-0221-20130221,0,5690100,full.column

Jesse Jackson Jr. didn't read his own book: 'It's About the Money!'

agnostic said...

I'd guess the Dutch would be the last to defect. They don't have a very strong ethnic identity here, and the ones I've met from the Netherlands say that they self-deprecatingly agree that they have no real culture of their own (not anymore, anyways), and borrow from everyone around them.

They're usually tri-lingual, eager to blend in with some other white group rather than split themselves off. They don't mythologize their origins the way that Celtic, Slavic, Latin, etc., people do.

agnostic said...

Jews also refer to their volumized curly hair as a "Jew-fro". Heard that beginning in the mid-'90s, and it's common to hear it now.

Anonymous said...

I'd guess the Dutch would be the last to defect. They don't have a very strong ethnic identity here, and the ones I've met from the Netherlands say that they self-deprecatingly agree that they have no real culture of their own (not anymore, anyways), and borrow from everyone around them.

It appears that ethnic pride is inversely related to ethnic accomplishment. I am amazed at how many people from high achieving ethnic groups are so low key or even embarrassed about their background while folks from seemingly dysfunctional groups are so proud.

Jefferson said...

[QUOTE]I have definitely noticed this. I am part Arab but look white. Among Americans I've noticed that whenever I mentioned this, the white people around me started listing their non-white credentials ("I'm 1/16th Cherokee!")

It took me a long time to realize that people were percieving it as a boast and trying to either defend themselves or outdo me, because I thought that Arabs were far from a trendy/popular race in America. It seems like anything is better than being "generic white".[/QUOTE]

If White people really want to be exotic, they should claim they are 1/16 Sub Saharan African instead of claiming to be 1/16 Cherokee.

What is more exotic than having a distant Sub Saharan African ancestor in your family tree ?

I am surprised no White liberals go around claiming to have a distant Black ancestor in their family tree. After all among SWPL types, Blacks trump Amerindians/Mestizos in the pop culture coolness factor.

So why not claim they have some of that coolness factor in their family woodpile

agnostic said...

Levantine-Americans ("Arab Americans") seem pretty safe too. During a time when everyone else likes to brag about their non-mainstream ethnic roots, they hardly bring it up at all. Not just about themselves; they don't even tell weepy Ellis Island stories about their ancestors.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Arab_Americans

Basically none give off an ethnic separatist vibe, and many you wouldn't have suspected because they just try to blend in. Including celebs from the '90s and 21st century, when everyone else loves to talk about their non-white roots.

Obviously they're afraid of being confused with the North African or Gulf Arabs. And since most are Lebanese or Syrian, they don't want to be associated with nearby Palestinians.

They look white, if exotic, and they basically act white, if boisterous. So as long as they don't bring up their non-mainstream ethnicity, let alone boast, let alone try to drive a wedge between themselves and the mainstream, they'll get accepted.

Of course, their desire to go along as white will only last as long as the mainstream's dislike of North African and Gulf Arabs. If those bad guys go away, the Levantines will probably turn out like Italians in their ethnic identity vis-a-vis the mainstream.

Anonymous said...

>It appears that ethnic pride is inversely related to ethnic accomplishment. I am amazed at how many people from high achieving ethnic groups are so low key or even embarrassed about their background while folks from seemingly dysfunctional groups are so proud.


Doesn't seem to be the case with Jews:

WHAT JEWISH LEADERS BELIEVE
(...)
The most important study of the younger [Jewish community activists] leadership is Brandeis professor Jonathan Woocher’s “The ‘Civil Judaism’ of Communal Leaders”, in the 1981 American Jewish Year Book. He looked at 309 middle and upper middle-class participants in leadership development programs of the United Jewish Appeal and the community federations. According to the professor . . . “[N]early 65 percent deny that Jewish values are basically the same as those of all religions, and more than three-quarters acknowledge a ‘special’ Jewish responsibility to work for justice in the world …

“Nearly 60 percent … view the Jewish contribution to modern civilization as greater than that of any other people … 70 percent … claim that they feel more emotion listening to ‘Hatikvah’ (Israel’s anthem) than to ‘The Star Spangled Banner’ … a majority reject the proposition that an American Jew owes his/her primary loyalty to the United States.

“Further, while all but a handful … are glad to be Americans, only 54 percent are strongly so, compared with 86 percent who strongly assert that they are glad to be Jews … 63 percent … explicitly affirm that Jews are the chosen people (and only 18 percent actually disagree).”

(...)

Seneca said...

" agnostic said...
Jews also refer to their volumized curly hair as a "Jew-fro". Heard that beginning in the mid-'90s, and it's common to hear it now
"

Hate to date myself ...but my Jewish girlfriend from Manhattan during college in the late 70s referred to her hair in the same way.

Their consciousness of being slightly different goes way back I am sure.

Anonymous said...

>Keep in mind Poles did not migrate in large numbers to the USA. From 1607 on, not even 500,000 Poles have come to the USA.

Maybe so, but that figure seems absurdly low given that there was already a famously huge Polish population in Chicago and pretty big ones in Wisconsin, Ohio, Pennsylvania and Connecticut in the first third of the 20th Century. There could be some confusion since there was of course no Polish state during the period of mass polish emigration to the US and many Poles could have been counted as Austrians, Russians or Germans.

Drunk Idiot said...

For those who've been suggesting that the sudden revelation of the Emanuel brothers' alleged victimization at the hands of vicious racists at Foster Beach 40 years ago may be motivated by politics...

Rahm's old boss, Barack Obama, produced an admittedly heavily fictionalized autobiography that was designed (IMO) to obscure his privileged white upbringing and to give him some black victim cred in advance of launching his political career.

Rahm is essentially trying to do the same thing.

Expect this revelation to be cited frequently when he eventually runs for president.

Remember, as Rev. Wright said back in 2008, a big part of the reason Barack was preferable to Hillary was because he knew what it was like to be a black man in a country run by rich white people. Hillary, after all, didn't know what it was like to be called a ni**er.

Well, nobody's going to be able to say that about Rahm after this.

Anonymous said...

White anxiety Steve?

Jefferson said...

[QUOTE]It appears that ethnic pride is inversely related to ethnic accomplishment. I am amazed at how many people from high achieving ethnic groups are so low key or even embarrassed about their background while folks from seemingly dysfunctional groups are so proud[/QUOTE]

Blacks show A LOT of high self esteem and pride in their race, for a group that gave the world such failed societies as modern day Detroit, Somalia, and Haiti for example.

Drunk Idiot said...

"(H)ere in Williamsburg the clubs and bars on the weekends are nearly 100% white - even Asians are a very tiny minority. A black friend of mine who lives in Manhattan once came with me and felt very uncomfortable, although no one was rude to him in any way."

If your friend was indeed the only black guy in the bar/club, you definitely won the SWPL status competition that night.

Congratulations! You were the guy with the black friend... thus, you were the highest status white person in the building.

Here's to hoping that you made the most of it.

Anonymous said...

Good God!

Look how the ambitions of the so-called 'civil rights' activists who shouted, screamed and stamped their feet back in the '60s have succeeded beyond even *their* wildest dreams, and how they got evrything they wanted, and then some.
I doubt that in the hisory of civilisation that a 'dominant' ethy has so cravenly and cowardly absed itself like this for absolutely no gain on its part.
It's just plain sick.
And waht was Steve posting about aggression, evolutionary theory and reproductive success the other day.
As someone once said, "those who won't fight won't f*ck".

Anonymous said...

Purely on looks Rahm might be able to pass for black (!) in certain settings, but he's a pushy control freak still lacking too many ethnic attributes to ever truly be mistaken for black, from any vantage except a casting brochure maybe. POTUS's career is the reverse of that situation--you've remarked on how well he fit into Jakarta on the cosmetic level--but he'd have certified-black status conferred upon him even without his mentally fraught Dissident White mom pushing him there. BTW the white status trend to watch is claiming you have or had gay friends; relatives; you used to be gay, etc.

Anonymous said...

What in your view makes Kevin MacDonald an "anti-Semite"?

An "anti-semite" is someone the Jews hate?

Anonymous said...

"when they argue that Jews aren't white"

So when Jewish pundits in the MSM are attacking white people they mean Jews too?

.
"Black is the new white"

Anti-white is the new white - because the MSM is anti-white.

.
"the historic bigotry against slavs, the fact that slavs were so associated with slavery in Europe the word slave comes from slav"

That is an interesting bit of unknown history - the original slave or "slav" trade. It went on from the bronze age until the expansion of the Russian Empire squashed the steppe tribes - so around 2000 years or so - with tribes like the Khazars raiding what would become Poland, Ukraine, Russia etc and bringing captives back to the Crimea to be sold to Jewish slave traders before export to the med.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_medieval_Europe

An even earlier centre of slaving was the Egyptian-Nubian border at places like Elephantopolis and a later one in Moorish Spain where both West African and North European captives were sold.

After the reconquista it was the people who'd run the slave trade in Moorish Spain - after they fled to Portugal - who developed the slave-based sugar plantation model in the Portuguese-owned islands along the west coast of Africa before transplanting it to Brazil and later onwards to America.

You could imagine the possibility of a family slaving business being passed down from father to son from Nubians in Ancient Egypt to the Crimean slav trade to Moorish Spain to Portugal to Brazil to America in an unbroken chain until slavery was abolished - almost 4000 years.

Peter the Shark said...

For example, Armenians in Southern California are more often drawing a verbal distinction between themselves and "whites."

If you ask a Russian, Armenians are not white. Russians consider people from the Caucuses (Armenians, Georgians, Chechens, Azeris, Dagestanis, etc. etc.) to be "chernozhopy" - "black asses", and inferior to ethnic Russians.

status cycles said...

Theodore Bilbo, James Vardaman, and Ben Tillman all would be considered ethnicky names now, probably descended from someone who got out of either Buda or Pest while the getting is good. BTW Armenians despite their heavy pallor still look more Eastern than most Iranians--check the early photos of the Kardashian brood, who once resembled extras from Battleship Potemkin. It's the Turks who really fail at the "looking foreign" test.

Rob said...

Maybe white Americans didn't mind calling Mexicans white when there weren't too many of them around. It's when you start seeing some race of people everywhere you look that you are uncomfortably reminded of how different they are.

robert said...

By the way, I'm getting good at proving I'm not a robot. I managed it after a mere three attempts last time.

Immigrant from USSR said...

In Russia "a person of Caucasian nationality" (literal translation from Russian) means relatively dark-skinned Armenian, Georgian of Azerbaijanian. Not in racial sense, but in terms of traditions.

Matthew said...

Far be it from be to suggest that a story by a rich, powerful man might be made up to make him seem more sympathetic. I mean, we all just know that Pierre Omidyar started Ebay so his girlfriend could trade Pez dispensers, right?

"White" is not a race, a sub-race, an ethnicity, or even a culture. It is a label based on skin color that downplays the cultural, political, scientific, economic, and religious contributions of a people of European descent. You are not white, but European, or Western European, or whatever. Why the hell would anyone want to be thought of as "white" when its only connotations are basically negative?

You want more people to identify as white? Then switch the label to European-American.

Anonymous said...

Levant Christians look different than Muslim counterparts in the same countries. They look a lot more white. Plays a part in their assimilation. The Muslims migrated to the US long after the Christians started to do so.

Anonymous said...

Canadian Observer, you are absolutely correct. People actually vehemently argue with me when I tell them that Dr. Ruth was a sniper/scout for the Haganah.

Cockney Geezer said...

Talking of this flight from white stuff...

Meanwhile here in little old Englandland, one of my cousins (actually his mum is my mother's identical twin sister, so he is sort of my half-brother) recently had a DNA test.

It seems he has j2mtDNA, as does something like 10% of Europeans.

Apparently j2mtDNA originated in the middle east and was spread north into Europe by the first farmers 6000 or 7000 years ago.

Perhaps, because j2mtDNA comes from the middle east, my brother, has decided this must mean we are descended from Jews, or are Jewish or even crypto-Jews or something.

I understand the old testament was written in the 6th century BC, and that Judaism was influenced by Zorastorianism and its estimated Zoraster lived 1000 BC, which was several thousand years after these j2mtDNA types migrated North into Europe - but where's the fun in that?

At a recent family get together, one of my sisters and my brother were discussing a recent BBC report of the remains of bodies found down a well in Norfolk. It seems they had been thrown down the well in the 12th Century. DNA analysis had shown that these remains were Jewish.

"So the Jews were thrown down the well, just like in the Borat song" I laughingly commented. My sister replied gravely that "these were our people". I laughed even more, inappropriately it seems, having not yet come to terms with our true ancestry and its history of persecution.

I can remember our father who was WWII generation saying once that "wogs begin south and east of Calais". I can't remember the context, but I think he was talking about the French.

How times have changed.

Farang said...

Steve Sailer said:

What was Senator Bilbo anyway? A Hobbit-American?
Sure: he was only 5'2"" tall.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodore_G._Bilbo

As to the white people claiming to be non-white: if they were jailed, would they ask to be put in a cell with non-white inmates? Doubtful, IMHO.

The Anti-Gnostic said...

"Arab" like "Hispanic" is a very imprecise term. It's really a linguistic category. The fact that Mohammed's ethnic Arab hordes brutally homogenized hundreds of local cultures from North Africa to Persia is down the memory hole.

I know a number of Syrians with Semitic features but otherwise wouldn't get a second look in Des Moines; some would pass completely. They are mostly (but not exclusively) Christian and have Greek, Balkan and even Franco-German admixture (from the Crusades).

Truth said...

" Are your fans so stupid and so enamoured of their persecution complex that they won't see right through this?"

Damn! I'm sleepposting under a pseudonym again. I thought I had that problem solved. Oh well, back to the therapist.

el supremo said...

Its been common for 40 years to hear some Italian-Americans distance themselves from "whites". Its not a racial issue or any alignment with "diversity" but seperating the supposedly superior Italian way of doing things from what they saw as the mainstream, white bread world of bad cooking and naivete about how things actually work in the world.

For example people used to refer something badly cooked as "white man". You see plenty of this kinds of attitude scattered through Scorcese movies if you didn't have any italian relatives yourself.

It has nothing to do with alignment with other minorities - these guys had a pretty low opinion of blacks - but these Italians' own attitudes towards the broader American society.

DaveinHackensack said...

"In America these different European ethnic groups were melded into one amalgamated white ethnicity, and as a result, we've done a remarkable job of having many different ethnics and religions living peacefully side-by-side while their cousins overseas fought one another. That is something for which America doesn't get enough credit.

However, that model worked well for pre-1965 demographics. Now not so much."


I don't think it's the different demographics that's the problem so much as it is 3 public policy differences between post-1965 and pre-1924:

1) The establishment of the welfare state.

2) Affirmative action (particularly, its expansion to non-blacks)

3) The constant flow of mass immigration.

Hypothetically, if you eliminated all three of those and had another immigration pause of a few decades in length, you'd see an assimilation of many non-European immigrants into founding stock majority norms (those who couldn't assimilate would leave, as there would be little incentive for them to stay).

It's worth remembering that pre-1924 immigrants weren't necessarily all superior to more recent ones: there was a selection process at work, where some of those who couldn't make a living here went back to their home countries.

Anonymous said...

But, but what about white privilege?

Anonymous said...

"It appears that ethnic pride is inversely related to ethnic accomplishment. I am amazed at how many people from high achieving ethnic groups are so low key or even embarrassed about their background while folks from seemingly dysfunctional groups are so proud."

That sounds like a workable generalization but really its only whites who show this embarrassment.

Anonymous said...

If presented with information that Rahm Emanuel's father was a terrorist who supported murdering British occupation troops in the 1940's, your average North American white man would say "does not compute".

And not just any old 1940s but the crucial 1940 - 45 part. You know, when the British army were busy with something else, but what? No, its gone, it will come back to me but let us be assured it wont involve jewish double standards, no siree.

Anonymous said...

im in toronto, a crappy leftist city, more american then american cities in many ways,, and i just dont see it, greeks here call themselves white, poles are proud, and never mention that mongol crap, persians here like to point out that iran means aryan, arabs often try to pass themselves off as italian- i think it all has to do with trying to appeal to the white woman, as silly and self hating as she is, still she has the lowest inter racial marriage rate of all, lower then white males. them coloreds want desperately to get in her pants....her genes.

Anonymous said...

1981 was 32 years ago. Most people who were Jewish communal leaders then are retired or dead. Even the youngest ones would be on their way out now. Among the people sampled, anyone over 50 was more likely to be closely connected to (i.e. child or younger sibling of) Eastern European Jewish immigrants and to have witnessed the creation of the state of Israel as an adult. Neither condition pertains now, and connection to Israel is fading among younger Jews. Moreover, intermarriage is much more common now than it was in the 1960's or 1970's.

Anonymous said...

Re:
"This is the wrong place for this comment, but have you read Ann Coulter's latest piece? It's basically Steve Sailer through and through."

Coulter follows Steve on Twitter - that's quite an endorsement.

She is the bravest of the pundits. I will never understand why she gets so much bashing here.

From one anonymous to another.


Fair enough -- I didn't know she followed Steve on Twitter. That said, I still think it'd be nice if Ms Coulter -- or any other commentator occasionally gave Steve a tip of the hat...

Dennis Dale said...

"So the Jews were thrown down the well, just like in the Borat song" I laughingly commented. My sister replied gravely that "these were our people". I laughed even more, inappropriately it seems, having not yet come to terms with our true ancestry and its history of persecution.

Reminds me of the Seinfeld episode where his dentist is a recent convert and is annoyingly enthusiastic (like Barry O donning his dashiki). He makes a joke about being Jewish and Jerry says he's had enough.
"Jerry", he says, "it's our humor that has sustained us as a people all these years..."
"Yes! Us!" Jerry complains.

Can't it be both ... you know like a desert topping and a floor wax?

Saturday Night Live - Shimmer Floor Wax - Video - NBC.com
www.nbc.com/saturday-night-live/video/...floor-wax/1056743/


I remember that bit! Hilarious. But of course the book is both. It's just you never hear much about its Balzac-ian critique of the old class structure of the eastern US.


Truth said...

"She is the bravest of the pundits. I will never understand why she gets so much bashing"

Here's to helping you join the bashing party...

here.http://robt.shepherd.tripod.com/tea-party.html

pat said...

I read Lynn's book on Jewish intelligence two weeks ago. In it the Jewish pattern is clear. Starting about 1,500 years ago the Jews are thrown out of some country because the natives resent them for being too smart. They seek refuge elsewhere - they are initially welcomed - and then the pattern repeats.

I think that pattern persists today. Clearly the Jews can never be accepted by the Muslims if only because they are so much more competent. I think they will be driven out of the Near East - probably with nukes - and take refuge in Florida. That will be very good for America - we could use some smart immigrants for a change - but eventually they will be resented here too. I predict an upwelling of anti-semitism - led by blacks - about the middle of this century.

The Jewish pattern of flight, acceptance and then native resentment will only stop when Gentiles can avail themselves of some of those specific IQ boosting Jewish genes too.

Albertosaurus

C. Van Carter said...

"What was Senator Bilbo anyway? A Hobbit-American?"

One of Tolkien's friends at Oxford was the Kentuckian Allen Barnett.

Otis McWrong said...

Anonymous said...”Would any black person fall for the BS that Rahm Emanuel with a tan is black? Puhleez”

Truth, are you buying it? Is Mayor Ballerina one of you guys?

Whiskey said...”Sadly. I'm White. I don't like it. But a great part of that is that many Whites just HATE HATE HATE Whiteness. And other Whites.”

I look forward to the day when you realize “hate” is not a 12-letter word. I’m white (Scots-Irish; the real Scots-Irish not the code word; plus some English, Dutch and German) and hate lots of whites. In fact thinking of specific people that I hate, its mostly whites, a couple Jews and one black (assuming BHO counts as black).

seth said...

I'm a swarthy Jew from NYC, and a few years ago I went to the Indy 500 with a white girl (irish Catholic). I told her that in NYC I am unquestionably white, but that when we got to Indiana she would see that my whiteness wouldn't be so obvious.

We got to our hotel in Indianapolis and while we checked in some older guy started up a conversation with me about Indiana, where we from, etc. He was from Crown Point, where Dillinger had escaped, etc. etc.

Then he stopped and said apropos of nothing, "What are you?" I said, "Take a guess." He tilted his head back and forth, "Italian? Arab?"

"Close!" I said as I walked away. "Keep guessing!" was my Parthian shot.

Svigor said...

I've read a couple of stories about Rahmbo blowing his stack with women. He seems to have a real problem with his temper, particularly in relation to women who defy him. He's probably got a string of beaten-up hookers in his wake.

That photo and caption are perfect. Total psycho/stalker vibe.

Svigor said...

I have several Jewish friends who tell me they don't consider themselves white.

Personally, I like to stay away from telepathic speculation. But I have seen several instances of Jews playing whichever side of the fence they think is to their advantage (the most famous being Mike Wallace's interview of Morgan Freeman on 60 Minutes), and I suspect that's what most Jews do. So, here, they're going to play to the audience and claim whiteness. But this isn't your typical audience. Elsewhere, they're not so white. They're diverse and vibrant and victim-y.

Anonymous said...

There is no evidence of a wide-scale 'steppe tribe' slave raiding trade that dates 'back to the bronze age'.
Basically, in the bronze age ie 3000 or more years ago, there were no written records to speak of.

Anonymous said...

I doubt that Emanuel is even descended from Old Testament Jews, and I certainly doubt that he has a drop of sub-Saharan African blood. He's scamming.

Aaron Gross said...

@Anonymous, some white nationalists do claim that race is purely biological, but Kevin MacDonald is not one of them. MacDonald explicitly defines race in terms of social and biological characteristics together. Many other white nationalists use that social/biological approach implicitly and sometimes even unconsciously.

MacDonald appeals explicitly - but not exclusively - to the social aspect of race on the question of whites ("Whites") and Jews. In that sense, he and other contemporary white nationalists follow the social constructionist trend.

Aaron Gross said...

@Other Anonymous, I think Kevin MacDonald is an anti-Semite by any reasonable meaning of that word. His own objection to that label - the only one I've seen - is that he's not antagonistic towards individuals just because they're Jewish. But the same is true of many, probably most, of the "classic" anti-Semites, like Marr and Lueger, to name just two of the most famous. If MacDonald isn't an anti-Semite, then who is or was?

I don't use "anti-Semite" as a swear word, by the way. I don't think it's necessarily bad per se.

Jefferson said...

[QUOTE]People identify with whatever is good for them to identify with. 100 years ago people like Eva Longoria and Jessica Alba would have identified as white because the winds of good fortune blew that way. (It was good to be white). Now they identify as non-white, because it is considered "good" to be non-white. Thing is they are still basically white.[/QUOTE]

According to DNA tests, Jessica Alba and Eva Longoria are both racially mixed.

Which does not surprise that they are not pure White, because Jessica Alba and Eva Longoria have a racially ambiguous phenotype. None of them have the all American White girl look of an Evan Rachel Wood or a Jessica Chastain for example.

Anonymous said...

I've posted this here before, but it's worth repeating.

In the UK, the educational system relentlessly pushes 'diversity', with results like these :

http://www.theewc.org/uploads/content/DfES_Diversity_&_Citizenship.pdf

You’re bored with it, you’re just British.
White female, Year 10 (i.e. age 15)

I’m not from a Caribbean country or an exotic country or even France or Spain. I’m from nowhere like that, I’m just plain British.
White female Year 10

It’s boring, I just want to be like from a different ‘race’, or a quarter something.
White female KS2 (i.e. age 8-11)



Laban

Jefferson said...

[QUOTE]In America these different European ethnic groups were melded into one amalgamated white ethnicity, and as a result, we've done a remarkable job of having many different ethnics and religions living peacefully side-by-side while their cousins overseas fought one another. That is something for which America doesn't get enough credit.

However, that model worked well for pre-1965 demographics. Now not so much."

I don't think it's the different demographics that's the problem so much as it is 3 public policy differences between post-1965 and pre-1924:

1) The establishment of the welfare state.

2) Affirmative action (particularly, its expansion to non-blacks)

3) The constant flow of mass immigration.

Hypothetically, if you eliminated all three of those and had another immigration pause of a few decades in length, you'd see an assimilation of many non-European immigrants into founding stock majority norms (those who couldn't assimilate would leave, as there would be little incentive for them to stay).

It's worth remembering that pre-1924 immigrants weren't necessarily all superior to more recent ones: there was a selection process at work, where some of those who couldn't make a living here went back to their home countries.[/QUOTE]

Which of these Nonwhite immigrant groups do you think would be the least difficult to assimilate into mainstream U.S society in your opinion ? In other words be the most open to assimilating.

1.East Asians (Filipinos, Chinese, Koreans, Vietnamese, etc)

2.Muslims (Egyptians, Somalis, Moroccans, etc)

3.Afro Hispanics

4.Mestizo/Amerindian Hispanics

And which of these Nonwhite immigrant groups do you think would be the most difficult to assimilate into mainstream U.S society ? In other words be the most reluctant to assimilating.

Anonymous said...

Levant Christians look different than Muslim counterparts in the same countries. They look a lot more white. Plays a part in their assimilation. The Muslims migrated to the US long after the Christians started to do so.

This has largely to do with the fact that Levantine Christians tend to dress in Western clothing and be clean shaven, relative to the Muslims. There are Levantine Christians who look "less white" than the Muslims there.

Anonymous said...

"What in your view makes Kevin MacDonald an 'anti-Semite'?"

He goes too far in his ideas about Jewish hostility. It's used as a framework for explaining everything about Jews.

Also, some of his associates are neo-Nazis. Occidental Observer links to Counter-currents run by Greg Johnson the dirty Hitler scum lover.

Read this:

http://www.counter-currents.com/2011/04/the-burden-of-hitler/

It's pure filth and garbage.

Anonymous said...

In that sense, he and other contemporary white nationalists follow the social constructionist trend.

They tend to be materialists and reductionists. If you asked them, they would probably argue that it ultimately reduces to biology.

Jefferson said...

[QUOTE]I'm a swarthy Jew from NYC, and a few years ago I went to the Indy 500 with a white girl (irish Catholic). I told her that in NYC I am unquestionably white, but that when we got to Indiana she would see that my whiteness wouldn't be so obvious.

We got to our hotel in Indianapolis and while we checked in some older guy started up a conversation with me about Indiana, where we from, etc. He was from Crown Point, where Dillinger had escaped, etc. etc.

Then he stopped and said apropos of nothing, "What are you?" I said, "Take a guess." He tilted his head back and forth, "Italian? Arab?"

"Close!" I said as I walked away. "Keep guessing!" was my Parthian shot.[/QUOTE]

There are parts of Indiana where you as a swarthy Jew would be considered unquestionably White.

Like in Gary, Indiana for example, where a whopping 85 percent of the population is Black.

I doubt very much that most people in Gary, Indiana would see you as a Nonwhite Person Of Color.

rno said...

I'm a little late to the party, but here's my personal experience.

I'm a twenty-something in Chicago surrounded by Poles, and growing up here I distinctly remember Polish acquaintances saying things like "I'm not white, I'm Polish." God forbid they should think of themselves as white (like everybody else sees them) because that would be just uncool! So they emphasize as much as possible that they're an "ethnicity", that they're cool and interesting.

So, Steve, I think your observation is true and, in fact, this is already widespread among young whites, in metropolitan areas at least.

Anonymous said...

"Obviously they're afraid of being confused with the North African or Gulf Arabs. And since most are Lebanese or Syrian, they don't want to be associated with nearby Palestinians."

I lived in the Detroit area, where there were a lot of Arabs. Christian Arabs are paranoid about being thought of as even remotely related to Muslim Arabs. Every single one will tell you almost immediately that they are Christian. They refer to their language/culture as "Lebanese" or "Iraqi" rather than Arabic.

Svigor said...

I read Lynn's book on Jewish intelligence two weeks ago. In it the Jewish pattern is clear. Starting about 1,500 years ago the Jews are thrown out of some country because the natives resent them for being too smart. They seek refuge elsewhere - they are initially welcomed - and then the pattern repeats.

I think that pattern persists today. Clearly the Jews can never be accepted by the Muslims if only because they are so much more competent. I think they will be driven out of the Near East - probably with nukes - and take refuge in Florida. That will be very good for America - we could use some smart immigrants for a change - but eventually they will be resented here too. I predict an upwelling of anti-semitism - led by blacks - about the middle of this century.

The Jewish pattern of flight, acceptance and then native resentment will only stop when Gentiles can avail themselves of some of those specific IQ boosting Jewish genes too.

Albertosaurus


Sounds like the problem is being itinerant, not smart. Episcopalians have a higher mean IQ than Jews, and you don't see them kicked out all over the place. You don't see them thinking anyone owes them access to every inch of the planet occupied by white people, either.

Svigor said...

"What in your view makes Kevin MacDonald an 'anti-Semite'?"

He goes too far in his ideas about Jewish hostility. It's used as a framework for explaining everything about Jews.

Also, some of his associates are neo-Nazis. Occidental Observer links to Counter-currents run by Greg Johnson the dirty Hitler scum lover.

Read this:

http://www.counter-currents.com/2011/04/the-burden-of-hitler/

It's pure filth and garbage.


Shouldn't you guys clean up your own back yard, before pointing the finger?

ben tillman said...

What was Senator Bilbo anyway? A Hobbit-American?

His patriline and the Bilbo name go back to Virginia and, before that, France.

Anonymous said...

Starting about 1,500 years ago the Jews are thrown out of some country because the natives resent them for being too smart.

But the natives don't throw out smart natives for being too smart. You seem to be missing something in the analysis.

Anonymous said...

@AaronGross:

Respectfully (and I mean that), you don't seem to have provided any explanation here for why you think MacDonald is an anti-Semite.

@Other Anonymous, I think Kevin MacDonald is an anti-Semite by any reasonable meaning of that word. His own objection to that label - the only one I've seen - is that he's not antagonistic towards individuals just because they're Jewish. But the same is true of many, probably most, of the "classic" anti-Semites, like Marr and Lueger, to name just two of the most famous. If MacDonald isn't an anti-Semite, then who is or was?

Mike said...

Armenians are definitely not what would be culturally seen as "white". The culture relies on projecting toughness, driving cars that appear expensive (almost 100% of which are salvage vehicles) and, at least here in Los Angeles, rely for income primarily on fraud.

The rate of fraud in the community is hard to comprehend. I deal with the community in a lending capacity and it is routine to hear repayment plans that rely on fraud! Armenian attempts to defraud us as a lender would be around 90% of our potential or actual fraud cases - and they make up around 5% of our customers.

Anonymous said...

I read Lynn's book on Jewish intelligence two weeks ago. In it the Jewish pattern is clear. Starting about 1,500 years ago the Jews are thrown out of some country because the natives resent them for being too smart.

Sassinid Persia was when Talmudic Judaism was born, there even was jewish consort queens and wealthy jewish commnuty with their academies and schools.

Anonymous said...

Episcopalians have a higher mean IQ than Jews

Audacious Epigone had difficulty replicating that data. And it's a specious comparison anyway. Today's American Episcopalians aren't an ethnic group like Ashkenazim. Ambitious Whites of other Protestant denominations and socially ambitious people of backgrounds less establishement than Anglo-Saxon found it advantageous to convert to Episcopalianism for two centuries.

Anonymous said...

"Shouldn't you guys clean up your own back yard, before pointing the finger?"

Bullshit. Criticizing Jewish power is fair and square and necessary.
But calling Hitler some white hero is beyond the pale.

josh said...

Rahm is vile.I hate him. When he ran for mayor it was funny how in EVERY photo op,there would be a black kid glued to him. There was a weird sexual subtext going on there,where the kid(s) would be soo close;and they seemed to be a tad not really comfortable with the strange man breathing on them. He would do the Hillary fake crying thing,too,when the subject of black kids came up.Funny he was never photo'd with white kids. I dont know why. Recently the shooting of the black girl whose funeral Michelle attended,has prompted an uptick on the constant talk of why there is shooting in Chicago. Oddly no one ever mentions...immigrants. Nobody ever says anything about the jobs blacks have lost to latins,or the fact that the immies have,being the Dreamers they are always referred to as,set up the Worlds Biggest Drug Network. (NOTE:Prez Calderone was compaining recently about the guns going down to mexico. Maybe when mexico was cheerfully sending us 40 million of their poorest people--and laughing they ass off!!--they should have told the emigrants,"Hey fellas,dont start any drug networks or cartels or nothin',ok?" They forgot that part. Karma is a bitch!)So Rahm has to cry and whimper and look real concerned and hope nobody says anything about the illegal immigrants he welcomes to the city.Sorry if a bit OT.

DaveinHackensack said...

Speaking of the Emanuel brothers, has anyone here linked to this NYT profile of them? Excerpt:

Today, the brothers argue just as passionately about the role that environment and genetics played in the life of their sister, who in recent years has been on and off the welfare rolls that Rahm worked so hard to cut. Benjamin Emanuel met his daughter when he gave her a well-baby checkup and discovered that she had suffered a brain hemorrhage at delivery. The baby's future was unclear; Shoshana's birth mother, a young woman of Polish Catholic background, asked Dr. Emanuel if he knew someone who wanted her child. ''But I couldn't find placement,'' Benjamin Emanuel says. After a week of debate between both parents and sons - Marsha Emanuel had always wanted a girl - the Emanuels themselves took Shoshana in. ''What are you going to do?'' Benjamin Emanuel says philosophically.

Intellectually, Shoshana developed normally - like her brothers, she graduated from New Trier, one of the most competitive high schools in the country - but she needed four operations and years of physical therapy to give her 85 percent use of her left side. She had a difficult adolescence, and today Marsha Emanuel, at the age of 63, is raising Shoshana's two illegitimate children. (None of the Emanuels will talk about Shoshana in detail, and she declined to be interviewed for this article.)

josh said...

BTW how many slave traders & owners wre jews? Mustve been a hell of a lot.I was listening to Glenn Beck( sorry)once,and he had on some nitwit monkey who was a politician in S. Carolina. He,in typical ass-sucking manner,bleated proudly that there were jews in SC back in the 18th century! Well land o Goshen!!! I dearly wanted to call in and ask what biz they were in.

Silver said...

According to Noel Ignatiev, my Irish ancestors "became" white, so I guess that I can eventually un-become white.

No, you can become unwhite. It's like 'undead' is not really dead but not really alive either. Unwhite is not really white but not really non-white either.

That's how the End of History and the Last White Man will play out.

The Anti-Gnostic said...

This has largely to do with the fact that Levantine Christians tend to dress in Western clothing and be clean shaven, relative to the Muslims. There are Levantine Christians who look "less white" than the Muslims there.

This is an area ripe for investigation. The Christians may be in fact ethnically different. They used to be called 'Rum' and probably had more Greek, Balkan, etc. admixture. I also know some very swarthy Levantines who are militantly (in a very real sense) Christian.

Truth said...

"Truth, are you buying it? Is Mayor Ballerina one of you guys?"

I wouldn't think so at first glance, but if you go to New Orleans, you will see black people you had no idea were black.

ben tillman said...

"People forget that Israel is in Asia."

Which means what exactly in the context of Ashkenazim like Rahm Emanuel, none of whose ancestors have been born there for nearly 2000 years?


Wow. His father was born in Jerusalem.

Anonymous said...

Jefferson said..

".... I doubt very much that most people in Gary, Indiana, would see you as a non-white person of color".

I doubt even more that he would ever go walking around alone at night anywhere near Gary, Indiana.

Anonymous said...

"People forget that Israel is in Asia."

Which means what exactly in the context of Ashkenazim like Rahm Emanuel, none of whose ancestors have been born there for nearly 2000 years?

Wow. His father was born in Jerusalem.


And he himself lived in Israel and has citizenship rights there.

Anonymous said...

To Jefferson said: (at 12:50 PM)

Your misrepresenting what I said;

I said that Eva Longoria and Jessica Alba were BASICALLY white. I never meant to imply they were TOTALLY white.

DNA tests say that Longoria is 70% white and Alba 87%. (Btw, this seemed to upset them both greatly.)

MY POINT was that they could both more or less pass for white IF they wanted too. A 100 years ago they would have wanted too. Now it is seen to be "cool" to NOT be white.

Anonymous said...

Seth said..

"Keep on your getting close", was my Parthian shot at him.


What a bad ass you are Seth..

Anonymous said...

OK, but the family has only lived there for a few generations. They were early Ashkenazi immigrants, not Mizrahim, and there was no state of Israel to grant citizenship rights until 1948.

ogunsiron said...

The Anti-Gnostic said...
I also know some very swarthy Levantines who are militantly (in a very real sense) Christian.
====

Are they Phalangists ?
The phalanges are pretty much muscular christianity. I don't know if it's a Lebanese invented concept though, as the phalanges existed in Spain too.

ben tillman said...

Other Anonymous, I think Kevin MacDonald is an anti-Semite by any reasonable meaning of that word. His own objection to that label - the only one I've seen - is that he's not antagonistic towards individuals just because they're Jewish. But the same is true of many, probably most, of the "classic" anti-Semites, like Marr and Lueger, to name just two of the most famous. If MacDonald isn't an anti-Semite, then who is or was?

That's fair enough, as far as it goes. For years, I've noted that an anti-Semite is one who does not believe that every conflict of interest between the Jewish community and another group or person must be resolved in favor of the Jewish community. That's all it takes for one to be labeled an anti-Semite, and that would be essentially consistent with Marr's original definition.

The problem is that the Jewish community simultaneously promotes an entirely inconsistent definition whereby an anti-Semite is an irrational, psychopathic Jew-hater. When someone is called an anti-Semite, that's what we're supposed to think of him.

"In that sense, he and other contemporary white nationalists follow the social constructionist trend."

They tend to be materialists and reductionists. If you asked them, they would probably argue that it ultimately reduces to biology.


You know, MacDonald doesn't just write about Jews and wolves and human children. He also writes about Westerners and Western culture, and this is an essential piece of reading:

http://www.kevinmacdonald.net/WesternOrigins.htm

Naturally, culture has a basis in biology, and culture can inform us about who we are. MacDonald explains that Europeans "are groups with high levels of cooperation with strangers rather than with extended family members, and they are prone to market relations and individualism." People who do not possess these characteristics are incompatible with Western culture no matter how "white" you perceive them to be.

Aaron Gross said...

Anonymous wrote: "If you asked them, they would probably argue that it ultimately reduces to biology."

I have asked MacDonald (on the TOO blog), and he replied that his concept of race is not just biological, it's social as well. If you really mean "ultimately," then even the most extreme social constructionists probably agree that it all comes down to biology, or even past that, down to physics. But practically, MacDonald understands the concept of race as an irreducible combination of culture and biology.

Aaron Gross said...

@Anonymous, re MacDonald as anti-Semite: fair enough. I didn't want to get into the mess of definitions. That's why I said he is one by any reasonable definition of the term.

Most broadly (and ahistorically), you could define it as someone who opposes Jews as Jews. MacDonald clearly meets that criterion.

More historically, you could distinguish it from general Jew-hatred as an ideological, often political, opposition to Jews as a group, often but not always based on "scientific" theories of race. This started in the 18th century. Clearly MacDonald meets all those criteria.

Again, I'll turn the question around: What reasonable definition of anti-Semitism would include the famous anti-Semites of the 19th century, but exclude MacDonald? I don't think there is any.

Aaron Gross said...

To give more details on my question to MacDonald: This was in response to a post he'd made about Kagan and/or Sotomayor on the Supreme Court. I asked about his count of whites on the court: whether, in terms of genetic distances (if I remember correctly?), the Sicilian Scalia should be counted as white when the Ashkenazi Jew Kagan is not. MacDonald replied, first, that he didn't have data on Sicilians, but he did on Sardinians. He then said that being white is not just a matter of biology, but of group attitudes towards the white race as well. So MacDonald's answer was specifically in the context of "are Jews white?".

Silver said...

MacDonald explains that Europeans "are groups with high levels of cooperation with strangers rather than with extended family members, and they are prone to market relations and individualism." People who do not possess these characteristics are incompatible with Western culture no matter how "white" you perceive them to be.

The problem is, Tillman, that people like you manipulate "high levels of cooepration with strangers" to mean whatever you want it to mean so as to exclude whomever you want to exclude. Geezus, to hear WNs tell it no non-white has ever, in the history of the world, trusted or cooperated with a non-kin stranger. As for being prone to markets and individualism, does that mean that white marxists stop being white? Given your logic, why in the world not?

Just give it up, man. Whites exist, whites are people too, and whites deserve a decent racial future. That's really indisputable for any halfway fair-minded person; it's the frankly loony justifications for white identity that some of you have an apparent deep-seated need to invent that prevents people acknowledging it.

Silver said...

Most broadly (and ahistorically), you could define it as someone who opposes Jews as Jews.

Yeah, yeah. What about Jews who oppose goys as goys, Aaron? I mean, come on, fair's fair isn't it? Hath not a goy EGI's? If you prick them do they not bleed? If you tickle them do they not laugh? And if you impose upon them an Immigration and Nationality Act of 1965 that will in due course first reduce them to a minority in their own country and then, in combination with the imposition of a Civil Rights Act of 1964, potentially lead even to their complete extinction, shall they not rebel against such imposition? Think about it.

Anonymous said...

Cockney Geezer -

If your mother's twin sister's son has J2 mtDNA, so do you. That by itself is not enough to indicate Jewish ancestry. Comparison of specific mutations could provide that information as could an autosomal DNA test such as 23andMe. There is a non-Jewish blogger who sometimes goes by the handle Polacko who has designed a free Jewish ancestry test as well as other ancestry tests for autosomal DNA data. But as you mentioned, much of haplogroup J, both Y-DNA and mtDNA versions, was brought to Europe by Neolithic farmers not Jews. That applies to some other haplogroups as well. Most likely you have little or no Jewish ancestry.

Anonymous said...

Kevin MacDonald's source material is practically all from Jews. Jews are not bothered when other Jews say it, but when non-Jews do it's anti-Semiticism. Kevin MacDonald is a consciousness raiser. Jews want the non-Jewish population to be ignorant about them so they can do whatever they please.

RD said...

"I expect in a couple of decades to be reading about how even Poles are now identifying as part-Mongolian Eurasians."

In all seriousness, I did notice the occasional Polish person with some discernible Asiatic features during my time in Poland.

Svigor said...

Audacious Epigone had difficulty replicating that data. And it's a specious comparison anyway. Today's American Episcopalians aren't an ethnic group like Ashkenazim. Ambitious Whites of other Protestant denominations and socially ambitious people of backgrounds less establishement than Anglo-Saxon found it advantageous to convert to Episcopalianism for two centuries.

True, but Jews spend 3/4 of their time on the subject denying they're an ethnic group, and talking up conversion. And Jews have been accepting ambitious, wealthy, and capable whites as converts for a thousand years.

Svigor said...

Bullshit. Criticizing Jewish power is fair and square and necessary.
But calling Hitler some white hero is beyond the pale.


Demographically destroying the people who plowed Hitler under is beyond the pale, too. So is calling whites a cancer, blaming them for black failure, etc.

Svigor said...

The problem is that the Jewish community simultaneously promotes an entirely inconsistent definition whereby an anti-Semite is an irrational, psychopathic Jew-hater. When someone is called an anti-Semite, that's what we're supposed to think of him.

Right. Schizo "logic," as with "RACISM!!!" When you're labelled an "ANTI-SEMITE!!!" or a "RACIST!!!," it means you want to shove Jews into ovens or lynch blacks. But what you actually do to earn the label could be as innocent as bringing up black crime stats or pointing out who runs the media.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous 2/21/13 at 11:35 PM --

Prof. MacDonald can read neither Hebrew nor Yiddish. His material consists of cherry-picked snippets from translated sources. Most of the vast corpus of Jewish religious writing has little to do with non-Jews. The parts that do were mostly written by people living in the Middle East during the early Middle Ages where the locals were not White Europeans. And some of those were discussions of Biblical verses dealing with relations with non-Jews, not necessarily indications of anyone's recent experience. One should also consider that the Talmud records viewpoints of many ancient and early Medieval rabbis, not any one of which is necessarily authoritative for a given issue. Finally, since the time of the Haskalah, opinions of the Orthodox rabbinate no longer carry much weight with many Jews. The rantings of a crazy old rabbi about non-Jews are about as characteristic of the Jewish population's views as the rantings of an old White Jew-hater about Jews are typical of the attitudes of ordinary Whites.

riches said...

I’d bet a donation to Jeremiah Wright’s old church on 95th street (say a thousand zlotys) that you could spend a decade in Chicago and not hear anyone of Polish ancestry say they weren’t white, as commenter Mo claims (s)he’s heard.

Anonymous said...

The inventor of the MRI, Dr. Damadian, was Armenian. So was the pornstar, Christy Canyon. Real name: Melissa Bardizbanian.

Anonymous said...

I am a European guy living in the US and while, if you ask me what race I am, I will respond "white," this is not how I think of myself politically. I think of myself as a Frenchman. I don't believe I have much in common culturally or politically with an American Pole or Scots-Irish or German, so it doesn't make sense for me identify politically as a "white." In the US "white" has a definite historical and political meaning, it's not just a reference to biological race. My loyalty is to the historical French nation and culture. I'm not interested in being part of the insane racial politics of the US, even though I reside in the US. So while I fully recognize I am biologically white, I refuse to identify this way. I imagine for the same reason that a nationalist Japanese is not much interested in identifying as racially an "Asian," which would mean that somehow he has something in common with the hated and despised Chinese.

I am a Frenchman, I know who I am. "White" is for Americans who don't know who they are. The American leadership is historically Anglo, not this nebulous "white."

It makes little sense to speak of a "white" interest worldwide, when America is the most anti-European nation in world history.

Anonymous said...

"The rantings of a crazy old rabbi about non-Jews are about as characteristic of the Jewish population's views as the rantings of an old White Jew-hater about Jews are typical of the attitudes of ordinary Whites."

Generally speaking what is the reaction of Jews to people they say are Jew-haters?

And if a white person reacts in exactly the same way to a Jewish white-hater?

They're Jew-haters.

.
"MacDonald as anti-Semite: fair enough. I didn't want to get into the mess of definitions. That's why I said he is one by any reasonable definition of the term."

There is no reasonable definition of anti-semite which if mirrored into a general definition of unreasonable prejudice wouldn't apply far more to a far larger group of Jewish media pundits and academics.

.
"What reasonable definition of anti-Semitism would include the famous anti-Semites of the 19th century, but exclude MacDonald? I don't think there is any."

Anti-semite is applied to anyone who opposes what is seen as Jewish interests and the logic of it is entirely circular.

If you have a culture which says everyone else wants to kill you then opposing policies which would guarantee Jewish security e.g. turning a majority host population into a minority and destroying their cultural cohesion, means you must hate Jews and want to kill them - obviously.

However an objective Martian looking at it from the outside might think it meant the majority population didn't want *their* security destroyed.

From the point of view of universalist morality increasing the security of n million people by reducing the security of 100n million people doesn't seem quite fair.

The again if an individual from the smaller group were 100 times more important than individuals from the other group it would be perfectly fair.

Obviously.

ben tillman said...

Prof. MacDonald can read neither Hebrew nor Yiddish. His material consists of cherry-picked snippets from translated sources.

Some Jews write in English, though you'd probably find a way to dispute this fact even while writing in English yourself.

Matthew said...

"Demographically destroying the people who plowed Hitler under is beyond the pale, too."

That's what I don't get. Some Jews - many Jews? - seem to hold all European-Americans responsible for the crimes of Hitler. They'll take it out on Great Britain, Canada, and the USA, no matter the historical reality, no matter the fact that Jews have never suffered much persecution in any of those countries.

You really have to understand that to understand the thought process of (yes, some) Jews.

Anonymous said...

Reply to Matthew said...

And it doesn't even make much sense either. The vast bulk of Euro-Jewry lived in Poland, the USSR, etc, areas far removed from where the Anglo-Americans were fighting (North Africa, Sicily, Italy, northern France, etc). If you read the book NO CLEAR AND PRESENT DANGER, the author makes a convincing case the USA's intervention in WW2 saved very few Jewish lives.

Silver said...

My loyalty is to the historical French nation and culture. I'm not interested in being part of the insane racial politics of the US, even though I reside in the US.

Yes, your natural loyalty is to Frenchmen like Jo-Wilfried Tsonga and Yannick Noah, not to the piece of white trash down the street whose same boat you're in.

And obviously giving any thought to the racial future is pure absurdity nothing a good little traditional frenchman would ever want to concern himself with, tsk tsk.

Silver said...

"What reasonable definition of anti-Semitism would include the famous anti-Semites of the 19th century, but exclude MacDonald? I don't think there is any."

It's not about prejudice, it's about power. The Karl Luegers had power. Kevin MacDonald has no power.



Anonymous said...

"
Yes, your natural loyalty is to Frenchmen like Jo-Wilfried Tsonga and Yannick Noah, not to the piece of white trash down the street whose same boat you're in.

And obviously giving any thought to the racial future is pure absurdity nothing a good little traditional frenchman would ever want to concern himself with, tsk tsk."

You sound pretty mad, u mad? Tsonga and Noah are not French. Neither are the Jews who have lived in France for hundreds of years. I know of no traditional conservative Frenchman who thinks they are French.

It's not a matter of white trash, it's that I know who I am, I am French. I'm not going to pretend I have something significant politically in common with a Scots-Irish or German American. America destroyed Europe in WW2 and occupied it. America is behind the Islamisation of Europe, behind the EU. Why the hell would I band with my "white brothers" in the US just because they share my skin color? Again, do you see any self-respecting Japanese nationalist talking about the "Yellow future," as if he has something in common with the despised Chinese or Koreans?

There's never been, in the history of the world, a nation or political group that was actually based on "white" or "yellow" or "black." These are fantasies. There are only Frenchmen, Germans, Anglos, and people of no identity in the US vainly trying to grasp at straws. I'm not interested in the insane racial politics of the US, I want the US out of Europe.

In what possible world am I in the same boat as a generic American you're describing? A citizen of the nation that destroyed European empires and allied with the Soviet Union to destroy traditional European regimes and cultures?

If the American government wants to classify me as "white," that's their business. I guarantee you no self-respecting German, Frenchman, Dutchman, etc., in Europe will think of himself as primarily "white," any more than he'll think of himself as primarily "human." These categories are too broad to be meaningful. We have nothing, literally nothing politically in common with our mortal enemies in Russia or America, who are also white, just like the Japanese have nothing politically in common with their mortal enemies in China.

Anonymous said...

The Frenchman again, let me add something else to this. Suppose you're a Serb. How far do you think "white unity" will take your interests...what do you think a Serb thinks about "white unity"? About the US, that bombed Serbia to save Muslims (who are also white, by the way, in Bosnia). And don't tell me that most white Americans didn't support that vile action.

God fuck America and England. May they reap what they sow, I hope these nations become mulatto basketcases, it would be poetic justice.

ben tillman said...


If the American government wants to classify me as "white," that's their business. I guarantee you no self-respecting German, Frenchman, Dutchman, etc., in Europe will think of himself as primarily "white," any more than he'll think of himself as primarily "human." These categories are too broad to be meaningful.

The German, French, and Dutch nations are under attack because they are White. If they do not realize that their most salient characteristic in this regard is their "Whiteness", they will perish. Any Frenchman who denies this commonality is a traitor to the French nation.

Anonymous said...

"
The German, French, and Dutch nations are under attack because they are White. If they do not realize that their most salient characteristic in this regard is their "Whiteness", they will perish. Any Frenchman who denies this commonality is a traitor to the French nation. "

If they are "under attack" by anyone it is by whites in the US. Like in WW2 remember that? Or in decolonialization, when the US worked with the Soviet Union to destroy European empires.

If you actually think there's a worldwide "antiwhite" conspiracy you're retarded. You really think that the French EU elite has something against white skin or the biological features of Caucasians? Or do you think they're motivated by something else, globalisation and the desire to destroy nationhood. I can tell you it's the latter. I will never, ever, want the French nation to be melded into some disgusting union with Americans, East Europeans, Spanish, Italians, or Dutch. We will not lose our identity, either to the EU tyranny, or to any other transnational scheme, whether it is based on race or something else. That, my friend, is treason. Go tell a Japanese to join his brothers in China, fool. Tell a Serbian to embrace his white brothers in America.

ben tillman said...

If they are "under attack" by anyone it is by whites in the US. Like in WW2 remember that? Or in decolonialization, when the US worked with the Soviet Union to destroy European empires.

Whites in the USA aren't responsible for the actions of their rulers.

You really think that the French EU elite has something against white skin or the biological features of Caucasians?

Deliberately stupid and, threfore, offensive question.

Or do you think they're motivated by something else, globalisation and the desire to destroy nationhood.

They're motivated by their own self-interest. And Whites stand in their way.

Robert Marchenoir said...

"I am a Frenchman. I reside in the US."

"We have nothing, literally nothing politically in common with our mortal enemies in America."


****

And why is Anonymous Frenchman living in America if he hates it so much ?

That reminds me of Arab or African immigrants living in France, taking advantage of the land, and spewing hatred towards everything French.

And towards everything white and/or non-Muslim, by the way. Many racial slurs directed by immigrants towards French natives specifically refer to whiteness. "Face de craie", a common one, means chalk-face.

You're defined by your enemies, not only by your friends. If your enemies hate you because you're white, you'd better pay attention.

By the way, I'm French, too. And I live in my own country. If I wanted to emigrate somewhere else, I would not chose a country I despise and call my "mortal enemy".

Were you abducted to America, Anonymous Frenchman ? Did the CIA kidnap you to Guantanamo ?

Anonymous said...

Robert,
So if you are French, you are happy with letting in white Polish and Romanians, white (Muslim) Bosniaks and Albanians into France? You think that's much better than Moroccans? Because I don't see such a big difference. I want them all out of France. There is no white nation, and has never been. I will not unite with my white "brothers" in other nations any more than I will unite in a brotherhood of all mankind.

The problem in France is the attack on nationhood and French history, not an attack on "white" people; a "white" identity has never existed in France. The Flemish and Walloons across the border hate each others' guts, but they're white. Yet they want their own nations and to live with themselves. They don't believe in any pan-white unity.

If you let your enemies frame any argument, then you've already lost. I don't care what the Moroccans or Cameroonians call me in France, that will not make me shake hands with an American. I don't need to do that to want to deport all non-French from France. And that includes blond Bosnians by the way.

There is no anti-white conspiracy. If the powers that be could, they would import East Europeans or others to destroy Western nations. In Iceland it's the Latvians who are the most hated immigrants, because of all the problems they create.

I'm never going to identify politically as "white" any more than I will identify as "human." It's a totally fake and newfangled category that at most is only appropriate for the US or for some other colonial place, but has nothing to do with my history or who I am. I can guarantee you, supposed Frenchman, there isn't any traditional nationalist in Europe, whether in France, Germany, Croatia, or Lithuania, who thinks of himself primarily as "white." Any more than any Japanese will think of himself as Asian, just because non-Asians confuse him with Chinese or Koreans.

The example of Serbia and the former Yugoslavia alone should discredit this stupid idea of white political unity. If the whites in the US have shot themselves in the foot and are now scrambling to create some political identity so they're not dispossessed, that's got nothing to do with me. No one in France thinks the Moroccans and others are French. Our demographic problems are not near as bad as the US. And frankly I'd prefer Moroccans and Cameroonians because they're easier to identify and eventually deport.

You guys don't seem to understand that there is no anti-white conspiracy, there's an anti-nation conspiracy. And guess who has been behind globalization and the destruction of nations? That's right, England and America. Well, it is poetic justice that you should be the first to fall to your folly, like I said, may you enjoy your mulatto future. The future is with Europe, as it's always been.

Also lol @ "the actions of the US govt. are not those of the American people"; as if the American people were somehow protesting against their leaders or trying to stop them in any way. Is anyone holding a gun to your head? In 1925 there were huge anti-immigrant protests, where are they today? Who in your pathetic so-called "country" actually wants to stop third world immigration, aside from a few of you on the internet? This idea that there's some tyranny over you is ridiculous, the American people could easily have stopped this if they wanted to.

Anonymous said...

Also Robert, do you think the Muslims you talk about are very friendly toward Armenians, Christian Lebanese, or Copts? Do you think they hate these people, and try to kill them, because they're white? Or that they cut them slack because they're tan? By the way, it is often you can't tell a southern Frenchman from a Lebanese anyway.

I don't want the Muslims to love France, to convert to Christianity, or to be white. I want them to leave. If a blond Bosniak converted to Christianity (or a blond Albanian Christian came to France), chose a French name and wanted to "assimilate," my advice would be simple, sir, good for you that you like French civilization, now it is time to take a plane back to your homeland and enjoy French culture there.

I want foreigners out of France. And I want the US out of France. The US is the biggest enemy of the French nation.

Anonymous said...

The Frenchman again, let me say one final thing on this. I keep asking you, do you think a Japanese nationalist would ever think of himself as primarily "Asian"? That he would consider his interests somehow aligned with those of China or Korea, or his identity essentially the same as theirs? And that all that it would take for him to do this is if there were some Japanese politicians who were bringing in third worlders?

I can't imagine a Japanese nationalist thinking he's anything other than Japanese, under any circumstances. That's true confidence. This "white" crap is for people of no history, no identity. Thank England for that, faggots! It's the Anglos in the US who imported you in the 19th century because they had a little glint in their eye, now they have no more use for you. Good luck with your mulatto future.

If anyone asks what I am in the US, I say I am French! I am not a cow or a dog to be classified by race. Southern whites by the way agree with me! They will identify themselves as simply "American." If you were confident about who you are, you would as well.

Fuck England, fuck America, fuck globalization, multiculturalism, the inventions of the Anglo.

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