May 25, 2013

SAT canceled in South Korea

From Time magazine:
For the First Time, SAT Test Gets Canceled in an Entire Country 
By Kayla Webley | Time.com – Fri, May 10, 2013 
Some 1,500 South Korean students who dream of attending elite American colleges are scrambling after the U.S.-based administrator of the SAT cancelled the scheduled May 4 session of the exam because of allegations of widespread cheating.

Have you come to hate the word "dream" as much as I have?
It’s the first time the SAT test has been called off in an entire country. 
... Test center managers told the Journal that the problem is widespread and that official test booklets can be purchased from brokers for about $4,575 — a relatively small price to pay for families fighting to gain admittance to Harvard, Stanford and other prestigious American schools no matter the cost. According to the Institute of International Education’s most recent annual report, South Korea sent 72,295 students to study in the U.S. in the 2011–12 school year, making the country the third largest provider of foreign students to U.S. colleges after China and India. Worldwide, international student enrollment at U.S. colleges has soared in recent years with a record 764,495 foreign students attending American universities in 2011–12. 
This is not the first incident of SAT cheating in South Korea. In 2007, some 900 students who took the exam in January of that year had their scores canceled after an investigation found an unknown number of students had seen at least part of the exam before the test was given. The latest incident, plus a string of scandals in the country over the past year that saw at least seven lawmakers accused of academic plagiarism, caused a South Korean national newspaper to question whether its citizens are unusual in their willingness to cheat.

More willing? Koreans tend to be nationalistic and effective, so I suspect they're mostly better at cheating. 

The more interesting question is who have been less willing to cheat? The answer appears to be: those awful Northern Europeans who can hardly be forgiven for having set up most of the institutions of the modern world. 

Could there be a connection between European conceptions of honor and the success of European institutions? And how to encourage European behavior when Europeans are the default bad guys?

164 comments:

gubbler said...



They cheat on beauty too.

Koreans go for physical and intellectual plastic surgery.

And they're vile dogocausters.

And they cheat in sports. Ask Jones and Ohno.

Kaz said...

It's the obscene school system they have in Korea. For their first world living standards it's a damn hell hole for the youth.

In school from morning to midnight. All for a chance of working 80 hour weeks for the rest of your life.

They adopted so many odd parts of American culture: religion, consumerism, music. But they need to relax..

gubbler said...

I wonder if Korean cheating extends to all exams or especially American ones.

Maybe Koreans are more tolerant of cheating on the SAT cuz it's duping the Americans(foreigners).

But the same mentality applies here in the US in 'who, whom' manner. The media really cheated conservatives in 2008 and 2012.
Watson got punished for telling the truth, but Stephen Gould has been honored for his cheating.
IRS targeted conservatives.

If you call out on communists, you're reviled as a paranoid McCarthyite, but if you scream KKK, you're honored and promoted.

Iran has no nukes but has been economically punished. Israel has 300 illegal nukes but we shower it with our tax dollars.

Israelis treat Palestinians worse than whites treated blacks in South Africa, but we encourage Jews to cheat Palestinians of their land and rights.

So, some cheatings are more tolerable than others.

And Iraq and WMD and no Wall Street bigshot going to jail?

Anonymous said...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y5T47G2iIvk

Northern Europe today.

Anonymous said...

When I was an undergrad at Cal a Chinese-American grad student I knew told me it was easy to find books in Chinatown (San Fran) bookstores that provided answers to the homework questions in all the major science textbooks.

DR said...

"Could there be a connection between European conceptions of honor and the success of European institutions?"

Anglo institutions one out over Scandinavian institutions. In the sense that governments and firms in Scandinavia and around the world look a lot more like the governments and firms of the English-speaking world circa 1900 than vice versa.

Yet the Anglo culture is less trustworthy than the Scandinavian culture. For example Anglo countries consistently rank below Scandinavian countries in the Corruption Perception Index:

http://cpi.transparency.org/cpi2012/results/

There's certainly a threshold of trust below which societies cannot succeed, but the above observations would contradict that global institutional success is monotonically linked to trust-worthiness. The optimal level of trust may not be the maximum level of trust.

The fact that East Asian economies are not out-growing European economies would suggest that given the current economic climate Northern Europe may be over-optimally trustworthy.

For example Northern Europeans are nobly and honorably going to great lengths to reduce their carbon emissions. Which significantly costs them economically. The East Asian economies are selfishly ignoring concerns about global warming and are consequently reaping a competitive advantage.

The peak of American economic success was during the era of Boss Tweed and Tammany Hall. A little may very well grease the wheels of industry and stop the would-be do-gooders from shutting everything down.

Simon in London said...

In assessing student applications, I find the most reliable indicator of quality is country of origin.

Anonymous said...

The real question is why are the booklets available for purchase before the test in the first place? Has this been the "key to success" for the well-informed for decades?

Anonymous said...

An article on the VOC recently posted on a history cite mentioned "the well-established stereotype of Asians as being cowardly, superstitious, deceitful and lazy."
After living the better part of a decade in Indonesia, the stereotype is spot on.
And not just in daily life: almost every day in the newspaper you can find a photo of someone walking out of court accused of embezzling millions (USD) with a broad smile on his or her face. Shamelessness is the norm.

Kaz said...

@DR

China might ignore their environmental issues. But Japan and Korea do not take it as lightly.

spandrell said...

The stakes are waaaaay higher in South Korea. It's either a foreign degree to get a nice job at Samsung or a 70 hour week grind for minimum wage (4 dollars an hour) forever. Which means no women too.

South Korea is China with double salary, which ain't saying much.

Anonymous said...

"For example Northern Europeans are nobly and honorably going to great lengths to reduce their carbon emissions. Which significantly costs them economically. The East Asian economies are selfishly ignoring concerns about global warming and are consequently reaping a competitive advantage."

I agree it is nice the euros are reducing their carbon emissions, however on a per capita basis they are still much higher than China.

eah said...

...so I suspect they're mostly better at cheating.

A friend of mine teaches math at a JC in southern California. He ranks the various ethnicities (it's like a human zoo in those parts, so sample size is good) in terms of cheating and general conniving and whining for better grades. Last time we talked about that he put Iranians at the top -- ie they are the worst. Have to ask him next time about Koreans. In my experience Chinese are worse than Koreans. Japanese are generally OK.

Anonymous said...

Koreans were at the heart of the cheating scandal at Duke's business school a few years ago.

deconstructingleftism said...

>>Could there be a connection between European conceptions of honor and the success of European institutions? And how to encourage European behavior when Europeans are the default bad guys?<<

As with the drug thing, the modern world needs a level of integrity not found outside northern European cultures. Read "Poorly Made in China". Cheap is not cheap if it doesn't work.

Anonymous said...

In my experience, the level of trustworthiness among East Asians goes as following:
1. Japanese
2. Chinese
3. Korean

Koreans are naturally dishonest. Even their national martial art Taekwondo does not credit its Japanese origin.

Anonymous said...

Have you come to hate the word "dream" as much as I have?

One man's dream is another man's nightmare.

Anonymous said...

/* when Europeans are the default bad guys */

Yale - private Ivy League - named after Elihu Yale - who indulged in slave trade in Chennai aka Madras, India.

"As for the Indian methods of "animalizing" cotton [i.e. giving cotton the texture similar to animal skins], they remained mysterious to most European printers until much later than might be expected - for seventy years after the arrival of chintz. Ironically, it was a man of the cloth, Jesuit Father Coeurdoux, who betrayed these fiercely guarded secrets. In 1742 the French cleric took advantage of his missionary posting on the Coromandel coast to gain the trust of Indian master dyers whom he had converted to Catholicism. They confided their secret process to him with an understanding that he would never reveal it. Coeurdoux immediately gave a detailed description in a step-by-step letter published in France. In a blink, three thousand years of clandestine artisan practice became public knowledge."

slave trade, decimating local population & environment wherever they went (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goa_Inquisition) , stealing secrets,wealth,money from those hated pagans of Hindusthan & other lands is how these famed Northern European institutions were built.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kerala_school_of_astronomy_and_mathematics#Possibility_of_transmission_of_Kerala_School_results_to_Europe

we all know how Jesuit missionaries 'transmitted' knowledge to Europe. Great honorable Europeans they are!

Sid said...

I wouldn't say that Northern Europeans are inherently more noble and self-sacrificing than Northeast Asians. Whenever you hear about rampant Chinese and Korean cheating to get into the Ivy League, remember the SWPLs who come out of the Ivy League.

sunbeam said...

This whole thing makes a kind of sense to me.

Getting into HYPS isn't really a matter of "deserving" it, is it?

It's simply a matter of getting the admissions people to say you are worthy. So to do this, we have a system that is grooming people from birth to be "worthy."

There are a number of benefits to graduating from one of these institutions. Probably the biggest one is to have jumped through the right hoops to get a job on Wall Street.

Rationally SAT cheating should be widespread throughout the US. You have to have common interests and bonds of kinship for "honor" to mean anything.

I might not like it, but it is the way it is. Americans ought to copy the Chinese when it comes to this. It might lead to the same kind of shoddy behavior by companies down the road, but you have to get down the road to have that problem.

HYPS admission by any means necessary at the current time, and with the current system in place. Basically you have to tell the kids "come home with your shield, or on it" when it comes to academics. Then manufacture all the right activities and flute lessons to make the product appealing to an Ivy league admissions officer.

And start cheating on the SAT. This is serious business and real money. You can't let a competitor do these things and win. If success accrues to this behavior it needs to be duplicated.

Traveller said...

"Northern Europeans who can hardly be forgiven for having set up most of the institutions of the modern world"

You spelled Roman Empire wrong.

nooffensebut said...

CNN has been running stories of widespread American cheating on certain medical specialty board exams. I heard there was a Web site for beating the Microsoft-developer exam. I wonder if this is less about race and more about technology, competitive culture, or the folly of "crystallized intelligence."

Anonymous said...

At my business school the "cheating scandals" were the sole purview of Asians in particular the Indians, Chinese and Koreans.

For some reason the Japanese students didn't participate.

Anonymous said...

Black Notre Dame Quarterback can't hack it academically is tossed. I'm sure some school from the SEC will pick him up.

http://nesn.com/2013/05/notre-dame-quarterback-everett-golson-leaves-school-after-reported-academics-infraction/

Anonymous said...

East Asians tend to be more corrupt.

Look at the transparency index(a measure on corruption).

Second, Northern Europeans treat their women much better and are less misogynic. Women in Japan, Korea and China are treated far worse.

Feminism is a modern disease but women in, say, Sweden were treated much better in that country a 1000 years ago than many women are in third world countries today.

East Asians are less likely to be violent but are also less individualistic/more prone to succumb to whatever the authorities say and are also more likely to be corrupt.

If you look at press freedom, you again see that East Asian countries don't have great scores. It's the collectivist impulse, obey the authorities.

Northern Europeans create the world's best societies, ever.

But as you say, that creates a lot of envy from all the others.

And when Northern Europeans are a minority in their own countries, the effectiveness, transparency and fairness of their institutions will reflect the nature of the new inhabitants. The best case scenario is an East Asian profile, like Canada/Australia have, but it's less inferior to the original institutions.

Karen said...

Dr-- I'm not sure how you define "economic success." Please explain why you think the 1860's through 1890's was our most successful era, as opposed to, say the Eisenhauer or Clinton years?

Porter said...

South Korea sent 72,295 students to study in the U.S. in the 2011–12 school year

Q: And what precisely was the benefit to displaced Americans of having these 72,295 Koreans sitting in their seats?

A: Racist! Nazi! Anti-semite! Xenophobe! Xylophone! Ummm...what was the question?

Boils said...

South Korea, "Our great ally?" In Seoul the better restaurants will have sings up banning Westerners. They import almost 'NO (as in none) foreign cars...And we waste taxpayer money defending them...

Go through the modern Imperial
War Museum and you wouldn't know the US had a hand in defending them during the Korean War. Even he Sherman tanks are listed as having been made by Koreans...Think about that before you buy a Hyundai

David said...

>The fact that East Asian economies are [...] out-growing European economies would suggest that given the current economic climate Northern Europe may be over-optimally trustworthy.<

Here's a Northern European man explaining why using growth as the only standard of progress is short-sighted. Warning: no tigers, prostitutes, bling, garages full of Harleys, or Kalashnikovs in this vid - just boring things like math.

Svigor said...

Have you come to hate the word "dream" as much as I have?

You just crushed some poor little Korean kid's dream of cheating his way to the top in the US of A. I hope you're proud of yourself.

It’s the first time the SAT test has been called off in an entire country.

KOR-E-A! KOR-E-A! KOR-E-A! Yyyyyeeeeeah, baby! In your face China!

Test center managers told the Journal that the problem is widespread and that official test booklets can be purchased from brokers for about $4,575

Koreans who never set foot in America get more out of Korean immigration to America than Americans do.

According to the Institute of International Education’s most recent annual report, South Korea sent 72,295 students to study in the U.S. in the 2011–12 school year, making the country the third largest provider of foreign students to U.S. colleges after China and India. Worldwide, international student enrollment at U.S. colleges has soared in recent years with a record 764,495 foreign students attending American universities in 2011–12.

Okay, okay, so I'm walkin back the whole "'Mericans don't profit" thing, I admit that, I admit that. Clearly, the commie endowments of 'Merican universities are cleaning up.

Svigor said...

Anglo institutions one out over Scandinavian institutions.

Did you ever get around to giving us the broad strokes of your educational background, Mr. MotU?

anony-mouse said...

Er, Don't Southern Europeans have more pronounced concepts of honor than Northern Europeans?

Yet I get the feeling that Northern Europeans have a better reputation for not cheating than Southern Europeans.

Svigor said...

There's certainly a threshold of trust below which societies cannot succeed, but the above observations would contradict that global institutional success is monotonically linked to trust-worthiness. The optimal level of trust may not be the maximum level of trust.

Deep Cultures - Part I

Jews and American Politics
Stephen D. Isaacs
Doubleday 1974


[148] Just how distrustful Jews are has been calculated in a survey conducted by the National Opinion Research Center for Dr. Melvin Kohn of the National Institute of Mental Health. In this survey, Jews almost leaped off the chart in terms of their intrinsic distrust of others. That survey, reported by the center's Andrew Greeley in his book That Most Distrustful Nation, attempted to assess various white ethnic groups' comparable levels of distrust. The scale went from Plus 4--most trusting--to Minus 4--least trusting:

GROUP ORDER AND SCORE
Irish Catholic 2.506
Scandinavian Protestant 1.583
Slavic Catholic 1.481
German Protestant 0.767
German Catholic 0.757
Italian Catholic 0.502
White, Anglo-Saxon, Protestant 0.242
Jewish - 3.106

pat said...

East Asians take their testing seriously. The exams that began in China in the Sui Dynasty have had a tremendous impact on their history.

For example the bloodiest conflict in the whole world in the nineteenth century wasn't the American Civil War but the Chinese Tai-Ping Rebellion. This whole conflict came about because an obscure rural Chinese man failed the civil service tests twice.

He couldn't pass the tests so he had a dream that he was younger brother of Jesus Christ. Millions perished in the ensuing conflict.

Such life altering tests used to be part of Western life too. Sir Geraint Evans - the famous opera singer - flunked the Welsh high school entrance exams in the thirties. He was going to be denied any further education and would have become a window display dresser had his voice not saved him for better things.

Testing has its problems but nevertheless, the United States needs something similar because a college degree is such an outrageously expensive alternative. In the old days if you wanted to learn something you went to the local old guy who knew things. Socrates was one such guy. Later the knowledgeable old guys were grouped together into institutions called universities.

Today we have Google and Wikipedia. But our social expectations have not had time to adjust.

At one time if you wanted to learn say, Greek History you might seek out someone like Victor Davis Hanson and attend his classes and seminars. Do this and you would get a history degree after you passed your final exams. But Hanson has written many books, why not just read all those books and take a history proficiency test on line? If both of you had web cams and Skype (very cheap) those who paid some fee could have a personal weekly conference with Hanson. That would be by far the cheapest way to gain access to a world famous scholar.

Learning online isn't the same as learning face to face on a campus - but it is much, much cheaper - just as online dating is cheaper than attending a series of church socials.

Our model should be something like Boy Scout Merit Badges. Get enough badges of the right sort and you become an Eagle Scout. It shouldn't matter where or how you learned what you learned. If you can pass the test you get the badge. Immediately this would unemploy hundreds of thousands of school administrators and other educational bureaucrats who now do pointless paper shuffling.

College tuition at a good school is now about $40,000 a year. We should be able to impart the same amount and quality of knowledge using modern methods for around $400.

The main reason kids who are not otherwise very scholarly get a college degree is that employers need an indication as to the brain power of applicants. A simple IQ test is more reliable and vastly cheaper.

In the fifteenth century Gutenberg freed the apprentices. Between 1450 and 1500 thousands of books were published that explained and illustrated what had been formerly semi-secret techniques that could only be learned through indentured service to a Master. We as a civilization did well with the Guttenberg revolution but are doing less well with the computer revolution.

Albertosaurus

carol said...

Yes I am tired of the "dream" business. Ads are using it a lot, especially the ones targeted to women consumers of houses, home decor and so forth...Dream! Dream again!

Everything's a big goddam dream now, with all the inherent irrationality that implies.

Anonymous said...

Could there be a connection between European conceptions of honor and the success of European institutions? And how to encourage European behavior when Europeans are the default bad guys?

European dominance came at a time before the development of a widespread culture of meritocracy, anonymous honesty and forthrightness. By modern standards, 17th and 18th century England would have been horrifically corrupt. The impeachment trial of Warren Hastings is -- as far as I can tell -- the first substantial indicator of the 19th century shift towards modern (or rather, Victorian) norms of fair-play and decency.

In Korea, standardised exams have been a fixture in elite life since at least the enthronement of the Chosun dynasty in the 14th century. And cheating has long been a major concern in all the examination systems used in East Asia over the past few millenia. People who are found involved in any test-related cheating activity at all need to be blacklisted from admission to any American school or any elite Korean school (Seoul National, Yonsei, Sogang, Sungdae etc.). It can't just be limited to cancelling their scores. Their parents are probably the ones shelling out the money, and their parents have to be terrified about the consequences for their childrens' future, if they're caught involved in any cheating. There needs to be public humiliation involved -- like a list of names in the newspaper.

Anonymous said...

I'm skeptical Northern Europeans are less willing to cheat. According to whom? Northern Europeans?

I think if anything, Northern Europeans have less incentive to cheat due to a higher standard of living and the fact that colleges rig the admission process in favor of said Northern Europeans.

By penalizing math in sat's, favoring elite feeder schools that still have elite white families sending their kids to, and favoring nebulous activities like going to Africa and building schools there is less of a reason for Northern Europeans to pursue high sat's as a means to get into elite IV league schools. Especially if they are going up against Asians who have higher iq's and who are hungrier for a shot.

Asians are hurt more than anyone by affirmative action, so Asians pursue high sat scores because that is the only way for Asians to get in.

Anonymous said...

European and American economies polluted the world horribly to create their modern economies. America cut down huge swaths of Forrest, driving many species to extinction, and almost drove the Native American to the brink of extinction. Why can't other peoples follow the same path?

East Asian economies are ignoring carbon emissions to save the world because global warming itself is a myth designed to block and hamper development of third world countries into economies that can compete with modern western economies. You say it is noble and a sacrifice to produce clean energy, yet the goal of reducing carbon emissions is solely to regulate the world under an organization run by western interests.

This sounds like any other theme pushed by white people to try and controll the world. From spreading democracy, to spreading capitalism, to spreading clean energy, it is just another way for white people to try and control the world.

Anonymous said...

"those awful Northern Europeans who can hardly be forgiven for having set up most of the institutions of the modern world.“

English speaking people set up most of the institutions of the modern world. German or Belgian or whatever else contributions pale in comparison to English speaking influence in the past 200 years.

dearieme said...

Is this cheating or just business as usual?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2331214/Pakistani-lesbians-Muslim-gay-couple-marry-UK-claim-asylum-immediately-lives-danger-home.html

d said...

"I have a scheme...."

Anonymous said...

Why is the test booklet available for purchase before the test, to begin with? For whom?

Anonymous said...

East Asian economies are ignoring carbon emissions to save the world because global warming itself is a myth designed to block and hamper development of third world countries into economies that can compete with modern western economies.
sweetheart, all we have to do is cutt of trade if we wanted to that, kind of like orientals do, sweetheart.

Also sunshine, there is still plenty of forested land (and far more national parks) in the US than oriental countries, buttercup.

it is just another way for white people to try and control the world.
And where are you writing fwom?

Anonymous said...

I think if anything, Northern Europeans have less incentive to cheat due to a higher standard of living and the fact that colleges rig the admission process in favor of said Northern Europeans.

Northern Europeans founded those institutions and thus have the absolute moral right to admit whomsoever they like. And that my friend is the end of your 'argument'.

Anonymous said...

"East Asian economies are ignoring carbon emissions to save the world because global warming itself is a myth designed to block and hamper development of third world countries into economies that can compete with modern western economies."

It's a myth designed to de-industrialize the West.

Anonymous said...

A friend of mine teaches math at a JC in southern California. He ranks the various ethnicities (it's like a human zoo in those parts, so sample size is good) in terms of cheating and general conniving and whining for better grades. Last time we talked about that he put Iranians at the top -- ie they are the worst.

Real Iranians or "Persian Jews"?

Anonymous said...

I see a lot of Korea bashing comments here. The blogpost is definitely newsworthy, but considering that the test booklet was being sold in the open market through distributors, I have to assume that ETS, the test maker, knows this happens all over the world, year in and year out. It sounds like one of the those hush-hush insider knowledge things. Insiders in SK probably overused it and just happened to get called out for it.

Anonymous said...

English speaking people set up most of the institutions of the modern world. German or Belgian or whatever else contributions pale in comparison to English speaking influence in the past 200 years.

What's the point of distinguishing between English and Germans. They are the same people.

gubbler, champion of all things checheny(except criminality) said...

"I'm skeptical Northern Europeans are less willing to cheat. According to whom? Northern Europeans?"

I think Northern Europeans are less likely to cheat among themselves, but paradoxically, their fair-mindedness may encourage cheating in others.

As 'progressive' Northern Europeans wanna make good on their historical 'sins' and be fair with all people, they are less willing to pass judgment on non-whites who cheat. The sentiment behind it might be 'noble', but all it does is spoil non-whites. In the worst case scenario, it encourages non-whites to cheat even more.
If northern european whites in Europe and America tell non-whites, "THE MAIN REASON WHY WE ARE SO RICH AND YOU ARE SO POOR IS BECAUSE WE CHEATED YOU IN THE PAST WITH WHITE PRIVILEGE, AND SO, WE WANNA MAKE IT UP TO YOU GUYS BY BEING EXTRA-FAIR-MINDED", then non-whites are feel it's in their right to cheat the 'honkey' since, in their minds, the main reason why northern euroopeans whites are so rich in EU and US is cuz they've been 'racist' and shit.

The main reason for Northern European success was organization, discipline, innovation, and rule of law, but as long as 'well-meaning progressives' put WHITE PRIVILEGE as the main reason, then non-whites are only gonna feel it's their right to cheat 'to make things all fair'. Many blacks feel that the only reason why Africa is poor and why so many blacks are part of the underclass is because whites cheated them.

The only way to spread the culture of fairness through fairmindedness is by combining fairness with confidence. White Americans have to say, "We achieved more than you due to our adherence to rule of law, so if you wanna do business with us, you better follow rule of law too."
But guilt-ridden white Americans and Europeans feel that rule of law applies only to themselves whereas illegal aliens and illegal students are entitled to reparational cheating.

In a way, this is tied to immigration. In the past, non-whites understood that they had to prove themselves worthy to be allowed into America. Nowadays, the word has gone around the world that Americans are pushovers on the verge of signing onto another round of amnesty. They can't believe their ears. A whole bunch of their countrymen illegally entered America, but they're gonna be rewarded with path to citizenship. Their 'dream' is gonna come true.
Crime sure pays. It's like saying a burglar has a 'dream' to rob you and then rewarding him for breaking in.

So, why play by the rules when when breaking the rules is so lucrative?

I can't find the link but I vaguely recall reading a Vdare article where some anonymous Korean in America said he played by all the rules but he faced many more hurdles than illegals who broke all the rules. Illegals got free everything while the Korean who played by the rules faced one red tape after another.

So, America now encourages cheating.

gubbler, champion of all things checheny(except criminality) said...

Of course, Northern Europeans did cheat others in the past, especially the American Indians whose treaties were all violated. But why did Northern Europe rise so fast even before they gained dominance over the world?
And if slavery and oppression were key to Northern European domination, why didn't China, Middle East, Africa, etc become powerful? They were all bloody, oppressive, and had massive slavery, much more so than Northern Europeans. If slavery perse is key to wealth of empire, then Arabs should have been richer than Europeans. And Latin Americans practiced more slavery than North Americans, so they should have been richer.

The real key to NE success was principles and organizations. NEs may have cheated others, but they tended to be more fair amongst one another, which is a start. (A people who aren't fair to one another aren't gonna be fair to others either.) Belief in the rule of law and shame associated with violation of such laws were key to NE success.
Protestantism helped too as it swept away the idolatrous and superstitious clutter of Catholicism with its labyrinthine bureaucratism. It simplified culture and purified the soul. And as NE were racially purer, they felt more as one people than southern Europeans who were more mixed in temperament, color, and traditions.

Also, paradoxically, the unfairness of the British class system may have improved the culture of fairness. Elites rule society, and for elites to act fairminded, they must feel secure in their station. The British class system made the elites feel secure over the rabble who dutifully said, 'aye guvnor', and so British elites were more willing to act fair since they could take their privilege for granted.

Anonymous said...

favoring elite feeder schools that still have elite white families sending their kids to

Elite feeder schools aren't favored. They are disfavored. They just happen to have disproportionately excellent students (whether due to genetic or financial backgrounds of the students).

gubbler, champion of all things checheny(except criminality) said...

"I see a lot of Korea bashing comments here."

We don't discriminate when it comes to bashing. We are like Dirty Harry.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RnRkCemeV7k

gubbler, champion of all things checheny(except criminality) said...

A lot of financial cheating in America, and not only on Wall Street.

In the past, it was shameful for someone to declare bankruptcy. But now, a lot of people spend and borrow like crazy, declare bankruptcy like it's nothing. Some even play the 'victim' of credit companies.

Something really stinks. And the last thing we need is to encourage more cheating and allow cheaters in from all over the world. Our house needs cleaning.

Anonymous said...

Er, Don't Southern Europeans have more pronounced concepts of honor than Northern Europeans?

Yet I get the feeling that Northern Europeans have a better reputation for not cheating than Southern Europeans.


You are equivocating on the word "honor." For Southern Europeans, you are reaching for a word with the connotations name, prestige, or status. For Northern Europeans, you mean integrity and honesty.

Anonymous said...

Northern Europeans founded those institutions and thus have the absolute moral right to admit whomsoever they like. And that my friend is the end of your 'argument'.

You are absolutely correct, except that the reality is the admissions committees favor Jewish applicants.

Davis said...

Koreans and Indians seem to share the same intrinsic belief that the American university system was built exclusively for their benefit.

Why do these people seem to want to live in the west so badly but are so terribly belligerent once they arrive? All you have to do is read the previous comments from our Asian amigos.

Anonymous said...

@Porter

Q: And what precisely was the benefit to displaced Americans of having these 72,295 Koreans sitting in their seats?

The Koreans' tuition helps finance these educational institutions, providing employment and lowering the cost of education to Americans.

Anonymous said...

Yes, albertosaurus, your system would be more rational, but it can't be allowed because it would undermine diversity more than the current system. IQ tests went away with Griggs v. Duke Power. Content-based exams are also under attack by TPTB. That and an irrational belief that education makes people "smarter" is why we are stuck with using degrees for job screening. Online education doesn't solve that problem, but it could make degrees cheaper. Unfortunately, the fact that online education could be accessible to the entire third world will make people even more desperate for prestige credentials to get ahead of the pack. So even if crappy small liberal arts colleges fold, expect HYPS to survive and for the signal of eliteness they offer to be even more important in the future.

Anonymous said...

"I think if anything, Northern Europeans have less incentive to cheat due to a higher standard of living and the fact that colleges rig the admission process in favor of said Northern Europeans."

The level of idiocy here is astounding.

College process IN FAVOR of Northern Europeans? Are you pretending to be that thick on purpose?

Also, South Korea has a high standard of living. Check your facts.

Still a much more corrupted society with a much less free press than any North European nation.

A lot of butthurt from your direction.

Anonymous said...

What's the point of distinguishing between English and Germans. They are the same people.

Similar, but not the same. Recent autosomal population genetic studies show that the genetic impact of the Anglo-Saxon and Viking invasions varies by region but is strongest in the southeast and north respectively. In other parts of England and even in those regions, there is signficant indigenous British ancestry.

sunbeam said...

Anonymous said:

"@Porter

Q: And what precisely was the benefit to displaced Americans of having these 72,295 Koreans sitting in their seats?

The Koreans' tuition helps finance these educational institutions, providing employment and lowering the cost of education to Americans."

I don't know about all schools, but for public ones the cost of tuition doesn't cover the cost of a student to the school. There is an indirect subsidy, financed however it is, whether by state governments, endowments, what have you that keeps the cost of tuition below true cost.

This is before student loans, scholarships, or anything else.

No idea about these new for profit schools, but I imagine most private ones function the same way.

So even if these Korean students pay tuition, the school is losing money on each one. Of course this doesn't consider what an individual student might do on his own to be a net benefit.

Anonymous said...

The Koreans' tuition helps finance these educational institutions, providing employment and lowering the cost of education to Americans.
oh so that's why tution has increased something like 10x the rate of inflation?

These institutions were made to educate our own, not your own. Even state schools often favor out of state foreigners over in state residents, despite getting money and land (like big ten schools) from the state. The purpose is not to provide employment, and we got along fine without Koreans or any significant amount of foreign students for centuries -and its no accident that since the scot irish post 1960s take over, quality has decline, prices have gone up and the system is openly hostile to gentiles.

the whole system reeks of corruption.

Anonymous said...

Koreans and Indians seem to share the same intrinsic belief that the American university system was built exclusively for their benefit.
precisely, they jump over each other to get here, so they can heap contempt on us... and of course, ruin the system they secretly and jealously admire.

Anonymous said...

Recent autosomal population genetic studies show that the genetic impact of the Anglo-Saxon and Viking invasions varies by region but is strongest in the southeast and north respectively. In other parts of England and even in those regions, there is signficant indigenous British ancestry.

Where does Norman influence fit into your framework?

Anonymous said...

But... Korean is nice people, Korea #1!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ptyzc4BQliY

Steve Sailer said...

But... Korean is nice people, Korea #1!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ptyzc4BQliY

That's hilarious.

Steve Sailer said...

Japanese dinosaur EAT peaceful Korean dinosaur, and Japanese never say they are sorry!

Anonymous said...

I don't know about all schools, but for public ones the cost of tuition doesn't cover the cost of a student to the school. There is an indirect subsidy, financed however it is, whether by state governments, endowments, what have you that keeps the cost of tuition below true cost.

The locals' tuition doesn't cover the cost of the locals. The Koreans pay their own way and subsidize the Americans.

Truth said...

Euraka, Steve, you've solved the mystery! They're cheating on IQ tests too!

Anonymous said...

This article and the commenters here remind me a lot of the state of the white man. Instead of being the best at things and building grand societies, it seems like white people aren't good at anything anymore so instead of doing things the hard way to recover white people find it easier to bring others down.

I think a lot of it stems from the fact that for the past 200 years white people have been busy colonizing the rest of the world, and when other people decide they don't like it white people become angry because western living standards rely on this relationship.

So when Arabs don't give up the oil to western companies and trade oil to countries who won't play ball with us, we manufacture reasons to steal the oil from them. Terrorism, democracy, women's rights, etc.

We blame Mexicans for coming to the US, but we forget that it is the American drug habit and the american drug war that has wrecked Mexico and made it a bad place to live. So where do you think they will go? Why did your ancestors come to America?

White people here love using sat scores to show how much smarter and more able they are compared to blacks. But all of a sudden with Asians sat scores don't matter because Asians just study longer and game the system.

Never mind the fact that white people study a lot more and game the system far more than black people do. How many black people do you think are in test prep centers compared to whites? How many blacks get old exam questions and memorize compared to whites?

As I see it white people are just gaming the system on a different level. Cheating the white way. If you think about it it makes sence. Unless it is Ashkenazi Jews, white people aren't going to out score Asians no matter what white people do. So it makes sence that the only hand left to play is to try and game and manipulate the system in white people's favor.

gubbler, champion of all things checheny(except criminality) said...

I think we can kiss Northern European standards of higher fairness goodbye in the new social order.

Among themselves NEs could play by rule of law. When NEs had power over other groups, they could impose the rule of law over them. It's like immigrants in the past had to accept and assimilate into WASP standards to make it up the social ladder.
And FBI went after the mafia.

But as NE types keeping losing in numbers and power in US and EU, they're gonna find themselves having to compete with cheater cheater curry/taco/kimchee/bagel/fried chicken/pita/mooshoo pork/pumpkin eaters. In a world where crime does pay and NEs no longer have any social or moral authority to do anything about it, they're gonna have to cheat too to compete with everyone else.

And especially with the imploding middle and working classes, it's gonna get pretty hairy.

Anonymous said...

So when Arabs don't give up the oil to western companies and trade oil to countries who won't play ball with us, we manufacture reasons to steal the oil from them.

Who's "we," White Man? There has been only one single time when Arabs haven't "given up the oil." That was 40 years ago, due to our support of the jewish invasion of Palestine.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous 5/26/13, 3:52 PM -

This article shows that black students are more likely to use test prep courses than white students.

white people aren't going to out score Asians no matter what white people do

That's not exactly true because of population size. There are millions of American whites who have IQ's greater than 130. The Asian average IQ might be slightly higher than the average white IQ, but there are relatively few Asians in this country compared to the number of whites. So even though the percentage of the Asian-American population scoring above a certain IQ threshold may be higher, the total number of whites with scores above the same IQ threshold will be greater.

Anonymous said...

I think a lot of it stems from the fact that for the past 200 years white people have been busy colonizing the rest of the world, and when other people decide they don't like it white people become angry because western living standards rely on this relationship.

Name one example where Americans have gotten angry at a foreign country because their living standards depended on the relationship.

Anonymous said...

We blame Mexicans for coming to the US, but we forget that it is the American drug habit and the american drug war that has wrecked Mexico and made it a bad place to live.

This is simply ahistorical. If anything, the drug violence of the last 8 years in Mexico has coincided with a slowing of migration to the United States.

Moreover, most Mexican migrants hail from non-drug trade regions. But to the extent these regions are related to drugs, they are producers and the trade helps their small local economies by bringing in additional income.

To the extent that Mexico is a "bad place to live," that is due to Mexico's explosive population growth of the last 100 years, fueled mostly by economic prosperity and technological advancements brought about by "the white man."

gubbler, champion of all things checheny(except criminality) said...

Things are weird. Since childhood, in some ways, America has become more corrupt and in some ways cleaner.

I used to have a Filipino friend who said her mother arrived in the early 70s and became a registered nurse cuz it was was easy to buy cheat sheets to the answers back then. So, during that time, a whole bunch of Filipino and other Asian immigrants became full-time nurses. But she told me her aunt arrived in the mid-70s and the system had been cleaned up. So, she couldn't pass the nurse exam and had to settle for factory job.
So, I suppose in nurse testing, the system did become cleaner and better.

When I was young, it was all too common for police to take bribes from speeders. But the scandal hit the news, and that pretty much went away, and police departments did become more professional and less corrupt. No doubt about that.

City inspectors routinely used to take bribes in the 70s and early 80s, but things did get cleaned up(relatively speaking)from what I heard from friends and businessmen.

I recall Chicago and NY used to be far more corrupt, dirty, and grimy in the 70s and early 80s than they became later. I suppose that was one of the good things about gentrification. Gentrifiers, even homos, tended to be more conscientious about stuff than many ethnics of working class persuasion.

And initially, diversity may have curtailed certain aspects of city corruption. When the Irish used to rule, they pretty much did as they pleased. But as cities became more diverse, dominant ethnic clannism became less viable. Irish couldn't just hog everything in places like Boston and Chicago. Cities had to open up to all groups and offer jobs and opportunities on a fairer basis.
But then, there was a big problem... blacks and browns tend to be less qualified,and so huge set asides have to made for them, which is a form of appeasement, corruption, and bribery.



gubbler, champion of all things checheny(except criminality) said...

Irish Catholic 2.506

ROTFL. Riiiiiiight. Most trustful in working together to cheat everyone else.

Fun said...

Foreigners seem to understand better than Americans the disproportionate power and influence Ivy League alumni have over world affairs.

Americans have been convinced by the self-serving elite that elite credentials and connectionsdon't matter... That simply getting a college degree will assure a person a good job, a good home, and a good life. That couldn't be further from the truth.

In reality the middle class is dying. In a couple generations our economy will consist of small elite group ruling over the hopeless, structurally unemployed masses. If Americans weren't so brainwashed to believe in the myth of classlessness, they'd do everything they could to get themselves (or their children) into the elite while the door remains open.

Anonymous said...

it is the American drug habit and the american drug war that has wrecked Mexico and made it a bad place to live

Mexico has been an unstable mess since its creation. Also, what gives with Canada's perennial normalcy in spite of the insatiable American appetite for drugs?

jody said...

"I'm not sure how you define "economic success." Please explain why you think the 1860's through 1890's was our most successful era, as opposed to, say the Eisenhauer or Clinton years?"

this is called the gilded age and is generally regarded as the US's greatest period of growth and development. it's long ago enough now that most people forget about it, and harken back to the 1920s or 1950s as their reference, but the time period between 1870 and 1900 is when the US really boomed the most. a lot of the modern US was laid down during that time period and it also coincided with a technology explosion going on at the time.

the switch from horses to railroads, the switch from wood to steel, the switch from lamps to electricity, the switch from coal to oil, the development of the modern brass case lead bullet smokeless powder ammunition for guns, the development of wireless telegraph and then, radio. all that stuff is still in use today. also during this time period, the entire US south joined the industrial revolution as it switched from manual labor to increasing mechanization for agriculture.

this is the time period when baseball was developed, organized into a professional game, and became america's sport. it reigned for over 100 years.

the history channel recently did a series on this time period, called "The Men Who Built America"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Men_Who_Built_America

the 1990s were nothing compared to that. although compared to the obama years, they would be considered a boom, due to the microcomputer revolution.

there has almost never been a period where the US has been so stultified as it has under the obama administration. energy use has gone DOWN under obama. if you look at a chart of a civilization's energy use over time, this almost NEVER happens while the population is still growing or the nation hasn't just been conquered or defeated or something like that. a continuously developing nation will have it's yearly energy use going up steadily year over year even in recession because that's just required for an expanding population growing at 1% (or more, depending on how many illegals there are).

Anonymous said...

Foreigners seem to understand better than Americans the disproportionate power and influence Ivy League alumni have over world affairs.

Zionists determine our foreign affairs, including our immigration and trade policy.

gubbler, champion of all things checheny(except criminality) said...

Isn't there a simple way to fix this problem?

Have a shuffle system where, out of many possible exam formats, the computer chooses one at the last minute before the exam begins.

And why use exam booklets? Pass out iPads or some such device with the exam questions/problems. Test takers can write the answers on paper, but the test itself will be on the iPad or some such.

If there are 30 or 40 possible exam formats, I doubt if Koreans are gonna buy all versions and try to memorize them all. It'd be stupid and impossible.

gubbler, champion of all things checheny(except criminality) said...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Ved3HwlzhY

http://www.rogerebert.com/far-flung-correspondents/a-nameless-gangster-in-2012s-best-south-korean-film

Maybe this is like a Korean BAD SLEEP WELL.

gubbler, champion of all things checheny(except criminality) said...

http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/opinon/2013/03/198_130757.html

"Confucius is known to have said that unless a person knows what corruption is, he or she will not be able to fight it. We cannot begin to fight corruption until we see that its possibility is in all of us. I also would argue that Confucius identifies corruption, most fundamentally, as the tendency to treat others above and below us in life’s circumstances in ways we would not want to be treated were we in the same position."

gubbler, champion of all things checheny(except criminality) said...

http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/nation/2013/05/116_136393.html

"All 63 private academies are located in Gangnam."

So, it's the gangnam style?

Anonymous said...

SAT is one of the easiest tests because same/similar questions are repeated over times. Thus, if one accumulated enough of previous test questions, you begin to see what SAT is. This is exactly what happened in Korea. Cram school is a big business in Korea, thus it is not surprising that some cram schools decided to accumulate and analyze SAT questions. I don't think you can blame such acitivity, rather it is college board who are lazy enough to test the same questions again and again. - from Korea

Anonymous said...

Cram school is a big business in Korea, thus it is not surprising that some cram schools decided to accumulate and analyze SAT questions. I don't think you can blame such acitivity, rather it is college board who are lazy enough to test the same questions again and again. - from Korea

Maybe the problem lies in releasing the questions in the first place?

Davis said...

Sweden's vast colonial empire made it a pleasant place to live. They depended on their colonies for all of the essentials to create their welfare state, high per capita income and high social trust.

The problem with white people is that we DON'T cheat. The problem is that we attend the universities OUR ancestors built. The problem with Koreans is that you do cheat and that you refuse to attend the universities your ancestors built.

Where is that old post made by an iSteve reader about his tour of High Scoring Asian Universities throughout the US? That was a classic.

Anonymous said...

This article shows that black students are more likely to use test prep courses than white students.

Yeah. I really believe that blacks are cramming test prep schools. There are just hordes of them in every inner city.

Anonymous said...

@Davis

From your posts, is your point that Whites are superior? If so, just state it explicitly, no need dance around it with bad examples.

I'm Korean and I, well anyone with eyes and a brain, can concede that Europeans created the modern world and up until the turn of the 20th century, also directed what is considered civilized behavior. I also don't subscribe to the idea that Europeans' high standard of living was mostly derived from colonization or exploitation, although it helps maintain it. One had to have had certain advantages in order to effectively colonize and/or exploit others to start with.

Having said that, remember that tables can turn and often do. Ask ancient Greeks why modern Greeks need a bailout. Most racially conscious Whites are quite aware of this, especially when it comes to the Scots-Irsih. Are you? Basically, humanity and its hierarchies are not static, no matter how much you want them to be. There was a time when Korea was much more advanced than Japan, both economically and culturally. So much so that the Japanese routinely raided villages and kidnapped artisans and intellectuals in the tens of thousands. Sorry, getting off track, but you get the picture.

I, personally, don't fault any White for the sense of loss and dispossession they must feel, but you, along with most Whites, deliberately bark up the wrong tree, every chance you get. Koreans, Indians, or other East Asians didn't create your accelerating decline. Neither did Mexicans or Blacks. The fact that most don't dare to speak the truth of this, is proof enough of their fear and feeling of inadequacy regarding it.

As far as why are Koreans here and so on and so forth, tell me why after WWII, the US decided to divide Korea and not Japan?

Anonymous said...

The problem here is that white people won't own up to their own contribution to the immigration problems at home.

Quit blaming the people that come here. It is the same damn thing your own ancestors did.

Isreal controlls their immigration, so does every other country in the world. The west lets immigrants in because some white people in power can benefit from it. Either by boosting corporate income through hiring cheaper engineers or by flooding the country with Medicaid recipients to boost their healthcare companies.

The white people in America who are against immigration should be focusing on other white people in power who want to push immigration.

Anonymous said...

My last post, not only @Davis (sorry I singled you out, I didn't mean to. I started responding to you, yet my response expanded) but to everyone else bashing Koreans and other minorities in general.

Anonymous said...

The problem with white people is that we DON'T cheat. The problem is that we attend the universities OUR ancestors built. The problem with Koreans is that you do cheat and that you refuse to attend the universities your ancestors built.

White people do cheat. They do things like manipulate the political system to start and participate in things like the Iraq War that has lead to the deaths of thousands of innocent Iraqi civilians.

Most white people's ancestors had nothing to do with building American universities. Why don't most white people go back to Europe and attend universities their ancestors might have had a hand in building?

Anonymous said...

Davis,

Why don't you go back to Europe?

gubbler, champion of all things checheny(except criminality, corruption, and bride-stealing) said...

"As far as why are Koreans here and so on and so forth, tell me why after WWII, the US decided to divide Korea and not Japan?"

It was not a conscious decision. It just happened. Idiot FDR told Soviets to enter the Asian sphere, and Soviets took over North China and northern part of Korea and then installed a commie gubment.
Soviet installed government and US installed government in the South couldn't see eye to eye.

Come to think of it, same thing sort of happened in China. Though Soviets pulled out and acknowledged Chiang as ruler of all of China, they empowered Mao and communists in the North. So, China, upon liberation in 1945, was defacto divided with commies controlling the north and KMT controlling the South. Commies were better organized and took over all of China. It would have been the same in Korea, but US saved the south.

None of it might have happened if FDR told USSR to stay out of Asia. No commie takeover of China, no Korean war, and no Vietnam War either.
FDR was an idiot.

gubbler, champion of all things checheny(except criminality, corruption, and bride-stealing) said...

"My last post, not only @Davis (sorry I singled you out, I didn't mean to. I started responding to you, yet my response expanded) but to everyone else bashing Koreans and other minorities in general."

You Koreans are far too sensitive. We make fun of everyone, from hillbillies to Neocons to conquis to Japanese to French to Greeks to fruity Brits, etc.

Hail said...

"Don't Southern Europeans have more pronounced concepts of honor than Northern Europeans?
Yet I get the feeling that Northern Europeans have a better reputation for not cheating than Southern Europeans.
"

Honor can mean more than one thing. Just like with the word 'chutzpah', English did not develop a vocabulary for the kind of "honor" of the mafia (or Chechnya).

See here:

The World's Most Toxic Value System

"Although this "honor" mentality tends to be a feature of what anthropologists sometimes call "shame" cultures, "shame" is not really an accurate term either. There really is no specific term in English to describe this value system. The social science literature commonly describes this mentality as "feuding," but though feuding is common in such societies, the term "feud" tends to obscure other aspects of the value system. The term "Mediterranean" is also widely used in the social science literature"

Captcha: "Judaea teurhec" [teuer, German for "expensive"]

Hail said...

Sid wrote:
" Whenever you hear about rampant Chinese and Korean cheating to get into the Ivy League, remember the SWPLs who come out of the Ivy League.

Didn't Ron Unz demonstrate that as many Jews are WASPs graduate from the Ivy League now? See here 23% White Gentile, 23% Jewish.

I calculated the racial origins of UCLA students two years ago, after the incident of the White student for mildly criticizing East-Asian study habits was expelled for racism.

Race Heresy Enrages UCLA -- I find Jews to outnumber Whites only 24-to-10. if that ratio were applied to the USA as a whole, there would be 80-85 million Jews resident (41-42% of White population).

Hail said...

"tell me why after WWII, the US decided to divide Korea and not Japan?"

(1) Korea was not yet ready to be independent (following about 50 years of defacto and then dejure colonial rule). They needed a foreign sponsor, and the USA didn't want to seem like it was setting up its own colony, so 'invited' Russia to handle the north.

(2) The Russians were already in the north of Korea, following their August declaration of war on Japan. So the same principle as applied to other conquests of 1945 prevailed.

(3) The Russians were not in Japan.

Anonymous said...

Quit blaming the people that come here....

The white people in America who are against immigration should be focusing on other white people in power who want to push immigration.


A couple of things.

First, the path toward immigration control lies in educating Americans to the costs and dangers of immigration (so that we can then bring more pressure to bear in the political process). The negative consequences of immigration overlaps with the effects on the country of immigrants themselves. So try understand our predicament: it is difficult to discuss this issue without coming close to highlighting negative consequences that immigrants create in our country.

Second, a not insignificant number of Indian, South Korean, and Scots Irish migrants to America come here to make and take, not to merge with us. This is parasitic or colonizing behavior. I know too well the contempt and disdain many migrants have for we Americans who have welcomed them to our country.

Anonymous said...

Isreal controlls their immigration, so does every other country in the world. The west lets immigrants in because some white people in power can benefit from it. Either by boosting corporate income through hiring cheaper engineers or by flooding the country with Medicaid recipients to boost their healthcare companies.

Your understanding of the interests that effectively direct U.S. policy and its media is woefully incomplete.

Hunsdon said...

This post would be a lot better if our host dropped in some of his crazy Korean riot videos. I never want to be caught in the middle of a Korean riot.

Anonymous said...

"As far as why are Koreans here and so on and so forth, tell me why after WWII, the US decided to divide Korea and not Japan?"

Huh? Because the Soviet 25th Army had occupied Korea north of the 38th parallel while the war was still going on (they were fighting the Japanese, though the Soviets had stayed out of the war against Japan until right at the end). The Soviet army set up headquarters in Pyongyang. The US military didn't arrive in southern Korea until about a month later, after the war was over. Boots on the ground, and all that.

Anonymous said...

"Asians are hurt more than anyone by affirmative action, so Asians pursue high sat scores because that is the only way for Asians to get in." - Asians are net beneficiaries of the system of ethnic preferences, which is why they vote for it in such overwhelming numbers.

"We blame Mexicans for coming to the US, but we forget that it is the American drug habit and the american drug war that has wrecked Mexico and made it a bad place to live." - Yes, "We". Or rather, no we don't. Mexico was ruined by a TFR of 7 for the better part of a century, not the drug war which is a symptom, not a cause of the demographic woes of mexico. Incidentally, this seems to be the same problem that everywhere that isn't the west seems to be having, small world huh?

sunbeam said...

Jody said:

"there has almost never been a period where the US has been so stultified as it has under the obama administration. energy use has gone DOWN under obama. if you look at a chart of a civilization's energy use over time, this almost NEVER happens while the population is still growing or the nation hasn't just been conquered or defeated or something like that. a continuously developing nation will have it's yearly energy use going up steadily year over year even in recession because that's just required for an expanding population growing at 1% (or more, depending on how many illegals there are)."
This came from this blog:

http://physics.ucsd.edu/do-the-math/2012/04/economist-meets-physicist/

"Economist: More than happy to keep our discussion grounded to Earth.

Physicist: [sigh of relief: not a space cadet] Alright, the Earth has only one mechanism for releasing heat to space, and that’s via (infrared) radiation. We understand the phenomenon perfectly well, and can predict the surface temperature of the planet as a function of how much energy the human race produces. The upshot is that at a 2.3% growth rate (conveniently chosen to represent a 10× increase every century), we would reach boiling temperature in about 400 years. [Pained expression from economist.] And this statement is independent of technology. Even if we don’t have a name for the energy source yet, as long as it obeys thermodynamics, we cook ourselves with perpetual energy increase.

Economist: That’s a striking result. Could not technology pipe or beam the heat elsewhere, rather than relying on thermal radiation?

Physicist: Well, we could (and do, somewhat) beam non-thermal radiation into space, like light, lasers, radio waves, etc. But the problem is that these “sources” are forms of high-grade, low-entropy energy. Instead, we’re talking about getting rid of the waste heat from all the processes by which we use energy. This energy is thermal in nature. We might be able to scoop up some of this to do useful “work,” but at very low thermodynamic efficiency. If you want to use high-grade energy in the first place, having high-entropy waste heat is pretty inescapable.

Economist: [furrowed brow] Okay, but I still think our path can easily accommodate at least a steady energy profile. We’ll use it more efficiently and for new pursuits that continue to support growth.

Physicist: Before we tackle that, we’re too close to an astounding point for me to leave it unspoken. At that 2.3% growth rate, we would be using energy at a rate corresponding to the total solar input striking Earth in a little over 400 years. We would consume something comparable to the entire sun in 1400 years from now. By 2500 years, we would use energy at the rate of the entire Milky Way galaxy—100 billion stars! I think you can see the absurdity of continued energy growth. 2500 years is not that long, from a historical perspective. We know what we were doing 2500 years ago. I think I know what we’re not going to be doing 2500 years hence."

Alfa158 said...

My wife is taking the Project Management Institute certification test which is a real bear to pass. A passing score to get certified is around 60 to 70% yet most applicants will fail it on the first try. I understand that to keep organized grinds from gaming the test, or getting copies to which they can study, the PMI uses a computerized test that gives each applicant 200 random questions from a database of about 10,000. Their software keeps a running calibration of the difficulty of each question based on how many applicants got it right on tests right up to when you took it.The algorithms can compute what the passing grade is for your test even though no two people will ever take the same test. 25 of the questions are not used for your grade, they are new ones about to be added to the database and are being calibrated for difficulty. This has been very effective at stopping cheating or the use of cram courses tailored to a particular test. You either know the discipline inside and out or you are out of luck.

Anonymous said...

They do things like manipulate the political system to start and participate in things like the Iraq War that has lead to the deaths of thousands of innocent Iraqi civilians.

Aware white people opposed attacking Iraq.

Anonymous said...

You Koreans are far too sensitive. We make fun of everyone, from hillbillies to Neocons to conquis to Japanese to French to Greeks to fruity Brits, etc.

If the way I responded to some inaccurate comments seemed overly sensitive, I guess I'm guilty?

Anonymous said...

Mexico was ruined by a TFR of 7 for the better part of a century, not the drug war which is a symptom, not a cause of the demographic woes of mexico.

What is a TFR?

Anonymous said...

If the way I responded to some inaccurate comments seemed overly sensitive, I guess I'm guilty?

What were the inaccuracies?

I don't know about guilty. But as a commenter suggested above, you may be lacking in empathy for the predicament in which ethnic Americans find themselves.

Anonymous said...

(1) Korea was not yet ready to be independent (following about 50 years of defacto and then dejure colonial rule). They needed a foreign sponsor, and the USA didn't want to seem like it was setting up its own colony, so 'invited' Russia to handle the north.

Do you have a source for this? I agree with the not being ready part, but I'm not sure that the FDR administration was actually worried about perceptions.

(2) The Russians were already in the north of Korea, following their August declaration of war on Japan. So the same principle as applied to other conquests of 1945 prevailed.

Your describing the how and not the why. Japan, like Germany, was defined as the aggressor and then the eventual loser. So why was Germany deliberately divided and not Japan? The reason given for Germany's division was to prevent their future militarism.

(3) The Russians were not in Japan.

Actually, neither was the US. Russia could have come in after the surrender, just as the US did. Instead, it was decided that they wouldn't and just annex Sakhalin.

The intent of my question wasn't to argue over history. It was to demonstrate that no answer to why Korea was deliberately divided would be satisfactory to Koreans, just as no answer offered by non-Whites would satisfy people who subscribe to a White-only America.

Anonymous said...

Huh? Because the Soviet 25th Army had occupied Korea north of the 38th parallel while the war was still going on (they were fighting the Japanese, though the Soviets had stayed out of the war against Japan until right at the end). The Soviet army set up headquarters in Pyongyang. The US military didn't arrive in southern Korea until about a month later, after the war was over. Boots on the ground, and all that.

You're describing the how and not the why.

Anonymous said...

This post would be a lot better if our host dropped in some of his crazy Korean riot videos. I never want to be caught in the middle of a Korean riot.

There's a lesson to be learned from South Korean riots. That's how South Koreans transformed a military puppet dictatorship into a democratic puppet republic.

Anonymous said...

"So it makes sence that the only hand left to play is to try and game and manipulate the system in white people's favor."

More idiocy.

If the system was rigged in our favour, immigration would look different, affirmative action would be abolished and the universities wouldn't teach minorities like yourself to hate yourself(even if you pretend to be white and think nobody will notice your hatred).

East Asians have a higher IQ, but only slightly. Also, post-1995, the SAT is a lot less correlated with IQ and thus is more responsive to the amount of time you put in studying. This is why Asian scores were locked in tight very closely with white scores until about the end of the 1990s until you started to see the slow and increasingly faster rise of higher Asian scores since people started to notice that, yes, you can improve the scores by starting several years earlier than others.

Finally, the point about Northern European societies is true. The people who judge the amount of corruption is a leading anti-corruption organization employed by the UN. The people who judge press freedom are Reporters without Borders.

This is unbiased information. And we crush East Asian nations on corruption and freedom of the press, not to mention that women are expected to work and not be housewhores with plastic surgery.

Secondly, 100% ethnically homogenous white countries are doing as well - and often better - than East Asian countries. Finland, is a case in point. Switzerland isn't as homogenous, but it's not far off, is another. Denmark, again. Germany is also not as homogenous as it once was.

If you look at the UN's Human Development Index or other 'the world's most liveable countries' it's basically a competition between overwhelmingly North European countries.

All I see from you is a lot of excuses why you can't be as good as us.

Anonymous said...

Second, a not insignificant number of Indian, South Korean, and Scots Irish migrants to America come here to make and take, not to merge with us. This is parasitic or colonizing behavior. I know too well the contempt and disdain many migrants have for we Americans who have welcomed them to our country.

Americans should be given the opportunity to look very closely at the impact of immigration. How did you guys let it to this point? I can only offer my opinion of South Korean immigration because my parents are South Korean immigrants. They left SK in the late 60's because of the over-crowded, hyper-competitive environment in South Korea, not to mention to escape the puppet military dictatorship sponsored by the US. They wanted their children to have better opportunities than they did. Is that parasitic or colonizing? I don't think so. As far as I'm concerned, members of my family have contributed and sacrificed more than our fair share to American society. And although I constantly hear from Whites about immigrants having disdain and contempt for America, those are not things I've personally witnessed frequently. Most of the contempt and disdain for America comes from Blacks and Whites.

Regardless, I support a homeland for Whites, especially the whole of Europe.

Anonymous said...

"Asians are hurt more than anyone by affirmative action, so Asians pursue high sat scores because that is the only way for Asians to get in."

This is a lie. Affirmative action is more than just college and you're net beneficieries like many have siad.

But even for college, the biggest losers are white.

Why? Because Jews count as 'white' when people make these statistics and you should be aware by now that Jewish achievement have dropped a lot in the past few years.

If you seperate out Jews from WASPs, and look at working-class WASPs from mostly rural states you need even higher SAT scores to get into Harvard. In fact, some even say it's basically impossible to get in unless you have a 'liberal marker' like being gay, being involved in a liberal cause like anti-gun organizations and similar.

Espenshade and others have documented this, and they found that working-class whites with 'conservative' markings had a tougher time to get in into Ivies than anyone - including Asians.

And yet, they got that result by mixing in Jews. If you take the Jews out, which they didn't, it would be nigh on impossible.

Get educated on the facts.

Also, I tend to hold the belief that people are not stupid and unless you think East Asians are stupid, you should be aware that East Asians support Affirmative Action by about 70%(according to polls taken by Asian instutions now in March).

If a community supports it by such numbers, it's probably because they are net beneficiaries and they know it.

Again, people are not stupid when it comes to "what's good for me". Except white people who give away the farm to everyone else and tolerates people who owe white people everything in their lives - including coming to Western countries in the first place - to just bitch and be ungrateful.

You're despicable.

Anonymous said...

What were the inaccuracies?

There are a lot of inaccurate comments, but being predisposed to cheating also makes me too lazy to find examples.

I don't know about guilty. But as a commenter suggested above, you may be lacking in empathy for the predicament in which ethnic Americans find themselves.

I'm not sure what comment you're referring to but no one has directly responded to any of my comments to suggest that I may be lacking in empathy, even though I'm Korean.

It would probably help if I didn't always comment as anon, but I think you're ascribing someone else's comment and a subsequent response to me.

One thing to consider when discussing these types of issues with Korean Americans or Asian Americans, is that most can't think for themselves and are edumacated at liberal American universities. This means their thoughts and answers are prepackaged by someone else. The fact that pure bloods self-identify as Korean American or Asian American is revealing in itself, isn't it?

In all honesty, aside from the probable/eventual quadruple teamed bloodbath on the Korean peninsula, nothing saddens me more about the future of humanity than the reality of White genocide.

gubbler, champion of all things checheny(except criminality, corruption, and bride-stealing) said...

Whenever I talk with my Polish friends, I rib them about illegal Polish immigrants. There's a whole bunch of illegal Poles living in state-funded retirement complexes. When I ask them how this is done, they tell me by 'shhhhhhhh.'

The manager of the complex is a Polish-American lady and she looks the other way. And since she's mum about illegal Poles, she tolerates other illegals too.

In this age of cell-phones and internet, every illegal in the US sends message back home that you get rewarded big time by cheating on immigration.
Just look at Obama's illegal aunt.

Now. I don't really mind illegal Poles as they is white. But most immigrants, legal and illegal, are non-white, and they'll telling their relatives that America takes good care of 'cheater immigrants'.

gubbler, champion of all things checheny(except criminality, corruption, and bride-stealing) said...

"puppet military dictatorship sponsored by the US"

Park was no puppet. He was a great man. Sure, SK was a client state dependent on the US, but Park was a patriot who forged his own national policy. When he asked for loans from the US to build a steel factory, US said no and told him that Korea should just buy steel from the US and Japan. Park wanted Korea to become an industrial power. He defied the Americans.
Park finally secured a loan from Germany, a nation he greatly admired and used as the model for modernization--along with Japan. He built the foundation of modern SK. One of the great fascist leaders of the 20th century. If Hitler had been more like Park and focused on nation building than warmongering, 20th century would have belonged to the modern right.

Ataturk of Turkey was another great man. Even greater for he wasn't only a patriot but a man of enlightenment values. Park was a forward-thinking dictator and patriot, but too brutal and simpleminded about cultural matters.

Anonymous said...

More idiocy.

I think I'll take this opportunity to mediate. The commenter you're replying to doesn't understand that what White elites do for themselves isn't what's good for the majority of Whites.

Also, it should be self-evident that societies that attract the most immigration are the most desirable places to live. Why is this up for debate?

But your point about 100% ethnic white homogenous countries is only true insofar as western countries. Former Soviet countries are far more homogenous and not all of them are doing well.

Anonymous said...

If a community supports it by such numbers, it's probably because they are net beneficiaries and they know it.

I'm not the commenter you replied to, but I'm Korean. What you're saying isn't necessarily true. If you isolated for education level and geographic location, I would be surprised if the SWPL rate is any lower than the Asian rate. I don't support any form of affirmative action, but I know many who do, but it's not because they see themselves as net beneficiaries. They really buy into the redress and diversity is strength arguments.

Again, people are not stupid when it comes to "what's good for me". Except white people who give away the farm to everyone else and tolerates people who owe white people everything in their lives - including coming to Western countries in the first place - to just bitch and be ungrateful.

I've always appreciated my White neighbors and teachers. Being influenced by White culture and thinking has broadened my view of the world. But again, there are many Asian Americans, having been edumacated in liberal universities, view their experience in America the same way SWPLs believe in white guilt. At least in the social circles I run in, none of it is logical or with legitimate malice. But, the second part of your statement, I disagree with. The part about Whites giving away the farm etc. Most racially aware Whites, rightfully, complain about not being given a choice about immigration, etc. So obviously, Whites aren't a monolith. My minor point is that racialists shouldn't take credit for what libtards have done for immigrants and at the same time criticize it. And most immigrants I know are grateful, especially immigrants with children.

Anonymous said...

Park was no puppet. He was a great man

For sure, he was a great man. He's a genuine SK hero. I respect him. But, when I say puppet, I meant more in terms of how the regimes relate to NK and foreign policy. To this day, SK's military would go under US operational control if war broke out. SK still doesn't have sovereignty over its dealing with NK.

Anonymous said...

I understand that to keep organized grinds from gaming the test, or getting copies to which they can study, the PMI uses a computerized test that gives each applicant 200 random questions from a database of about 10,000. Their software keeps a running calibration of the difficulty of each question based on how many applicants got it right on tests right up to when you took it.The algorithms can compute what the passing grade is for your test even though no two people will ever take the same test. 25 of the questions are not used for your grade, they are new ones about to be added to the database and are being calibrated for difficulty.

Many standardized tests already does most of this. Also people in the same testing room will have different tests.

Hunsdon said...

Anonydroid at 9:22 PM said: And we crush East Asian nations on corruption and freedom of the press, not to mention that women are expected to work and not be housewhores with plastic surgery.

Hunsdon said: Excuse me? Housewhores? And part of the greatness of northern European civilization is that women are expected to work?

Anonymous said...

Anonymous 5/26/13, 9:27 PM -

Unz bases much of his case for decline in Jewish achievement on PSAT test scores. If one doesn't plan to attend one's state school, the reward for high performance on the PSAT is low. The grant of around $2k total(in the 1990's) barely made a dent in my private school's tuition. Intelligent but unmotivated kids are quite capable of intentional underperformance on tests of low importance.

Jewish absence from science competitions, national spelling bees, etc. partly reflects a population shift to suburban schools and private schools. Those kinds of activities were a big deal at the NYC exam schools when my father was a student in the 1950's. They were not a big deal at my suburban private school where athletics and arts were emphasized. And not many of my high-scoring white gentile classmates were even interested in the Ivies. Some of these people were wealthy sophisticates, and none were rural 4H-ers. As I recall, they perceived the Ivies to be less fun than the schools that caught their attention. I can believe that there is a bias against poor, rural white people in the elite university admissions game but am not convinced that it explains the entire story.

Anonymous said...

In regard to partitioning Japan instead of Korea:

"Russia could have come in after the surrender, just as the US did. Instead, it was decided that they wouldn't and just annex Sakhalin."

You make it all sound so optional. They could have done this, they could have done that... Often things are dominated by what it's realistic to do. The Soviets had no amphibious warfare capability. It was easy for them to invade North Korea, however. Just a short drive from Vladivostok. They'd also been there before.

There's an old saying "everything in war is simple, but even the simple things are difficult". The Soviets hadn't been in the war against Japan. They simply weren't ready to invade Japan. The US was.

Don't over think this. I know it seems very important to you and did turn out to be very important to a huge number of people, but the US probably barely gave it a thought at the time. There wasn't any hostile intent. People just had bigger fish to fry.

Svigor said...

I, personally, don't fault any White for the sense of loss and dispossession they must feel, but you, along with most Whites, deliberately bark up the wrong tree, every chance you get. Koreans, Indians, or other East Asians didn't create your accelerating decline. Neither did Mexicans or Blacks. The fact that most don't dare to speak the truth of this, is proof enough of their fear and feeling of inadequacy regarding it.

You, personally, don't have a clue as to which tree we're barking up, or why. Read more, write less.

NOTA said...

We are seeing the occasional tip of an iceberg sticking up out of the water, and discussing it as though each visible chunk of ice is some rare weird event.

My guess is that cheating on these high-stakes tests is pervasive and has been for a long time. People tie their lives into knots to get into ivy league schools, and their parents take out second mortgages on their homes to pay for it. Parents do every legal thing they (we) can do to make sure their kids do well in school. It would shock me if there were NOT widespread cheating, some of it organized at the level of whole prep schools and prep classes. For there not to be such cheating would be a remarkable show of ethics in a people that aren't much given to sacrificing their interests for the sake of principle.

This is like performance enhancing drugs in sports. When all is laid bare, it will turn out that the whole structure of our intellectual meritocracy is as riddled with cheating and near-cheating as our sports meritocracy.

Anonymous said...

The top-ten graduate econ program I attended simply stopped considering applications from Korea after getting burned by admittees who proved to be nowhere near as good as suggested by their (apparently faked) GRE and TOEFL scores.

Anonymous said...

"This is like performance enhancing drugs in sports. When all is laid bare, it will turn out that the whole structure of our intellectual meritocracy is as riddled with cheating and near-cheating as our sports meritocracy."


We're already there, in a more literally sense than one might imagine. Something like 30-40% of the ugrads at elite universities are probably routinely using "study-drugs" at exam time. These drugs don't make you smarter, but they make it difficult to become unfocused and distracted, that is, they keep you focused. As somebody must have said, "genius is %1 smarts and 99% focus":


"One in 10 Teens Using 'Study Drugs,' but Parents Aren't Paying Attention", ScienceDaily, May 20, 2013:

"... Adderall, Concerta, Ritalin, and Vyvanse."



"The Competition Drug", Roger Cohen, March 4, 2013:

"“Just popped an Addie, so I’m good to go” — this sort of pretest attitude has become pervasive. Conversations with several students suggested Adderall was always available, costing from $2 to $5 a pill. Adderall has become to college what steroids are to baseball...

... I went from D’s and F’s to straight A’s. ..."




"The Real Limitless Drug Isn’t Just for Lifehackers Anymore: Modafinil’s moment", Robert Kolker, Mar 31, 2013:

"... he was experiencing a level of concentration he’d never imagined... As long as he kept taking the pill, his focus never wavered. ...

... Modafinil, which is marketed as Provigil in the United States, was first approved by the FDA in 1998 ... it’s become better known as a nootropic, a “smart drug,” ...

... U.S. prescriptions increased almost tenfold over the past decade. Far and away, most of those were for off-label use."

Anonymous said...

You, personally, don't have a clue as to which tree we're barking up, or why. Read more, write less.

Follow your own advice.

Deckin said...

Boils: The idea that S. Korea imports few or no foreign cars is ridiculous. A five minute drive through Seoul will reveal more foreign cars than a similar drive through Chicago.

Sunbeam: Foreign students at public colleges/universities pay far more than their education costs. In state residents are subsidized, out of state pay the full load, foreign students pay more than the full load. That's how it works in CA and most states.

Anonymous said...

, but the US probably barely gave it a thought at the time. There wasn't any hostile intent. People just had bigger fish to fry.

Are you suggesting that during the Pacific War and especially when victory was imminent, that there wasn't a team of US strategists that decided that it would be in the US's interest to have a foothold in mainland Asia, specifically Korea and the Soviets felt the same way, previously having fought two wars for it? I'm not saying that it was necessarily hostile intent towards Korea, but was a self-serving decision regardless of how it affected Koreans. But the main point, as I mentioned in another post, was to demonstrate no answer to deliberate division would be satisfactory to Koreans, just as no answer on immigration by non-Whites would be satisfactory to people who want a Whites-only America.

Yes, it kind of sucks to be from a small strategically located country, that's constantly being bullied. Even today, Korea is a chessboard that will most likely end in lots of blood and tears. It's probably the cause of what I think is a form of psychosis in Korea. Imagine being surrounded by China and warring Japan as your neighbors forever.

Anonymous said...



The top-ten graduate econ program I attended simply stopped considering applications from Korea after getting burned by admittees who proved to be nowhere near as good as suggested by their (apparently faked) GRE and TOEFL scores.

I wonder if schools will ever ban Chinese students. I routinely hear that their entire transcripts are faked.

Anonymous said...

Who says white people are more honest?

Try asking the Native Americans who got small pox blankets.

Look at the biggest thieves in Wall Street who steal billions upon billions. What race are they?

Anonymous said...


"Why don't you go back to Europe?"

I wish I could, but the don't just let white Americans in because they have ancestors for from there.A Nigerian probably has an easier time to get into England or France than a white American.

Second. Europe is being ruined by immigration to so there isn't much to go back to.

Anonymous said...

If the Asians are so smart, why don't they create some top schools in Korea and China that their top students can go to?

How many of the 700,000 students are allowed to stay here?

Anonymous said...

"Our model should be something like Boy Scout Merit Badges"

I think EO Wilson recommended that too.

Porter said...

I note the humorous (as is all one can presume the point is) position that displaced Americans "benefit" from Korean tuition payments.

"Great news Timmy, you got rejected from Harvard. Those Koreans just saved us $60 grand/year!"

Anonymous said...

Is there a connection between respecting rules and linguistic structures within a language?

Anonymous said...

"Are you suggesting that during the Pacific War and especially when victory was imminent, that there wasn't a team of US strategists that decided that it would be in the US's interest to have a foothold in mainland Asia, specifically Korea and the Soviets felt the same way, previously having fought two wars for it?"

Yes, I'm suggesting there was no grand strategy such as you propose with respect to Korea. WWII was a big deal, the type of thing that focuses the mind. Korea was apparently a footnote at Yalta, if that.

It was not at all clear what the future would bring. It was not clear that a foothold was needed, after all, China was an ally that still had not fallen to communism and a good chunk of it was occupied by the USMC. See for instance "The United States Marines in North China 1945 - 1949". The Marine Corps landed in China immediately at the end of WWII and had a pretty big presence. The operated out of the big air field at Nanyuan near Beijing, for instance, flying Corsairs to patrol up and down the Great Wall... They were pretty active for a time.

Thus the big Asia questions for the US did not come directly at the end of WWII but later when Truman decided that Americans weren't ready to support a big war in China fighting the PLA and pulled the Marines out of China, resulting in the political issue "who lost China?"


"... the 6th Marine Division ... sailed to Tsingtao, China .... The division remained in China until it was disbanded in Tsingtao on 31 March 1946."

Hum, here's one way to handle illegal immigration:

"The 1st Marine Division... Following the surrender of Japan, the division was sent to Northern China as the lead combat element of the III Amphibious Corps with the primary mission of repatriating more than 650,000 Japanese soldiers and civilians still resident in that part of China. ...

...During this time they increasingly fought skirmishes with soldiers from the People's Liberation Army ...

... The last elements of the division finally left China on 1 September 1947."



Regarding the US and the partition of Korea:

"On August 10, 1945 two young officers – Dean Rusk and Charles Bonesteel – were assigned to define an American occupation zone. Working at extremely short notice and completely unprepared, they used a National Geographic map to decide on the 38th parallel. They chose it because it divided the country approximately in half but would leave the capital Seoul under American control. No experts on Korea were consulted. The two men were unaware that forty years previous, Japan and Russia had discussed sharing Korea along the same parallel. Rusk later said that had he known, he "almost surely" would have chosen a different line.[7] Regardless, the decision was hastily written into General Order No. 1 for the administration of postwar Japan."

I know it's tempting to believe the US couldn't possible have been so haphazard, so ignorant, this has to be a cover story... Perhaps this is a downside to the US propensity for action over analysis-paralysis. Sometimes the cowboys (or junior officers in the field acting in haste) really do call the shots. Probably one of the secrets to the history of the West. As much as Kings and Emperor's might not like it, history was often written from the bottom-up.

gubbler, champion of all things checheny(except criminality) said...

"For sure, he was a great man. He's a genuine SK hero. I respect him."

I must say he makes a very unlikely 'great man'.

Sukarno had warmth and easy charisma. He should have been an actor. He was immensely likable even when he was being a total fool.
Mao, though evil, was a man of ideas and a true titan. Vile but his greatness was obvious, and people like Edgar Snow noted it early on.
Lee of Singapore learned much from the British. You could tell he knew lots of stuff.
Deng learned much from his life experiences as a revolutionary.
But who would have thought someone like Park would come out of nowhere and lift a third-rate nation(at least in eyes of the world) to an economic power?
Park didn't have much of a personality. Marcos was a fool but a very funny guy. He should have been a comedian.
Park was supposed to some colorless military guy but had an instinctive understanding of things.

And history is funny. Who would have thought in the 70s that his daughter would be the president of DEMOCRATIC SK.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0uZfGwqFrVQ

gubbler, champion of all things checheny(except criminality) said...

"I routinely hear that their entire transcripts are faked."

Academic derivatives.

Anonymous said...

"What is a TFR?" - Total Fertility Rate. The number of children born to a woman over her lifetime.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_fertility_rate

A TFR of 8 for example allows a nation to double its population every generation I believe.

Anonymous said...

I note the humorous (as is all one can presume the point is) position that displaced Americans "benefit" from Korean tuition payments.

"Great news Timmy, you got rejected from Harvard. Those Koreans just saved us $60 grand/year!"


@Porter

The argument is that their tuition helps fund the services that the school provides to other, American, students. Without their tuition dollars, the institution might not stay afloat, and everyone would be displaced.

Also, if the institution had to close, a lot of academic and administrative jobs would be lost.

Anonymous said...

Try asking the Native Americans who got small pox blankets.

This is a malicious lie. The original blood libel.

Anonymous said...

"Yes, I'm suggesting there was no grand strategy such as you propose with respect to Korea."

I appreciate the research you put into your post. Perhaps we are misunderstanding one another. First, I'm not suggesting that the US was an evil empire and acted with malice against Korea. Shit happens in war and world domination.

I was merely stating that the division of Korea was not an accident but a deliberate act, probably more from the Soviet side than from the. The Wikipedia article you quoted about the division of Korea actually supports this view. The part you quoted about the young officers only shows the careless way it was decided where Korea would be divided. Nothing in the article indicates that the young officers are the ones who made the decision to divide Korea. In fact, if you reread the entire article, it actually supports my assertion. The decision to divide, even if there wasn't a detailed plan on how best to implement it, was made by FDR, Stalin, and Chiang, perhaps as early as 1943, but definitely before the Soviets rolled in, evidenced by the fact that they knew to stop at the 38th parallel.

But again, although I like studying history, the main point of my original comment was only to demonstrate that no answer as to why Korea was divided would be satisfactory to Koreans, just as no answers given on immigration by non-Whites would be satisfactory to people who subscribe to a White-only America.

Anonymous said...

Look at the biggest thieves in Wall Street who steal billions upon billions. What race are they?

I don't know. Scots Irish? Are you referring to Madoff? What "thieves" in Wall Street have stolen billions upon billions? You seem to just be regurgitating propaganda.

Anonymous said...

If the Asians are so smart, why don't they create some top schools in Korea and China that their top students can go to?

They do. Their top tier students attend their top schools, at least for their undergraduate studies. The second tier and third tier students, if their parents can afford it, think getting a western degree gives them better job prospects.

Also, MNC's prefer to hire recruits with international education.

Porter said...

The argument is that their tuition helps fund the services that the school provides to other, American, students. Without their tuition dollars, the institution might not stay afloat, and everyone would be displaced.

This is why anonymous commenting is important. No one will ever need admit to having written this.

Anonymous said...

" note the humorous (as is all one can presume the point is) position that displaced Americans "benefit" from Korean tuition payments.

"Great news Timmy, you got rejected from Harvard. Those Koreans just saved us $60 grand/year!"

@Porter

The argument is that their tuition helps fund the services that the school provides to other, American, students. Without their tuition dollars, the institution might not stay afloat, and everyone would be displaced.

Also, if the institution had to close, a lot of academic and administrative jobs would be lost."

It's nonsense, especially for a place like Harvard, which could easily give all their students a free ride from what I have read.

There are more Americans who want to go to UCLA, MICH, Illinois etc than they accept.

Only a few percent of the students at those schools are foreign, so it doesn't make up that much money. The schools could slightly raise the tuition if they had to, or just replace the foreign students with out of state students who pay full tuition.

The only schools that might benefit from foreigners are small, mediocre, private schools that can't get enough students to full their rolls. Also, maybe some south east so and so state schools that don't get enough applications, if there are any.

Anonymous said...

"hey do. Their top tier students attend their top schools, at least for their undergraduate studies"

I assume you would have to be an elite student to get into Berkeley, Harvard, MIT at the undergrad level.

They can't have top graduate programs in China?

Anonymous said...

The argument is that their tuition helps fund the services that the school provides to other, American, students. Without their tuition dollars, the institution might not stay afloat, and everyone would be displaced.

This is why anonymous commenting is important. No one will ever need admit to having written this.


@Porter

There are institutions in California where nearly the entire student body is Asian. What do you think would happen if Asians were given the boot?

Anonymous said...

The argument is that their tuition helps fund the services that the school provides to other, American, students. Without their tuition dollars, the institution might not stay afloat, and everyone would be displaced.

Also, if the institution had to close, a lot of academic and administrative jobs would be lost."

It's nonsense, especially for a place like Harvard, which could easily give all their students a free ride from what I have read.

There are more Americans who want to go to UCLA, MICH, Illinois etc than they accept.


Harvard and other schools of the kind you mention are only a tiny fraction of U.S. higher education. It's all the other schools that are struggling to cover their costs.

Anonymous said...

I assume you would have to be an elite student to get into Berkeley, Harvard, MIT at the undergrad level.

At Harvard and MIT, foreign undergrads represent about 10% of the student body. Most of the 10% are children of diplomats or large donors from around the world, not just Asia (Think Middle East and Latin America, even Africa and Europe). The few that aren't children of donors, usually attend on some type international NGO friendship scholarship.

They can't have top graduate programs in China?

I'm sure they do but if the business world prefers hiring students with degrees from unis they recognize, that's what they're going to do.

If you were running Bechtel and wanted to set up an office in China, are you going to hire someone that has a BS, MS, and Phd from Chow Mein U. or someone who has a BS from Chow Mein U., but also a PhD from MIT?

Harvard has a 10% foreign undergraduate rate, but a 33% foreign MBA rate.

Anonymous said...

"here are institutions in California where nearly the entire student body is Asian. What do you think would happen if Asians were given the boot?"

Names of schools? These are schools that employers wouldn't really be impressed by, unlike UCLA etc.

By Asians do you mean foreign Asians or Asian Americans?

I hope these undergrads aren't allowed to stay in the US.

These are mediocre schools that could be opened in China.

" It's all the other schools that are struggling to cover their costs."

Most of the students at these schools probably shouldn't even be in college according to Charles Murray because there are few people who go to these schools in the top 10%-20% of students.

Hail said...

Anonymous 5/26/13, 8:52 PM wrote:
"no answer to why Korea was deliberately divided would be satisfactory to Koreans"

Ok, but as others said, it was just a matter of where the armies were. Italy also wasn't divided: The Soviets weren't there. The Soviets were not in Japan. They were in Korea. There is no "why" beyond that, IMO.

All that said, your point is that Koreans are angry about the partition. True. And why wouldn't they be? I would offer only one caveat: Korean historiography is so clouded by myopic nationalism that no answer about anything that has ever happened in/to Korea would be satisfactory, if it is anything but gushingly "pro-Korean".

gubbler, champion of all things checheny(except criminality, corruption, and bride-stealing) said...

"Ok, but as others said, it was just a matter of where the armies were."

Armies didn't just happen to be there. Idiot FDR asked Stalin to enter the Asian sphere. Given Soviets lost 15-25 million in WWII and much of USSR had been devastated, you'd think FDR would have done more to secure Asia. But the fool simply didn't see communism as a longterm threat, and many of his top advisers were commie spies.

Anonymous said...

All that said, your point is that Koreans are angry about the partition. True. And why wouldn't they be? I would offer only one caveat: Korean historiography is so clouded by myopic nationalism that no answer about anything that has ever happened in/to Korea would be satisfactory, if it is anything but gushingly "pro-Korean".

It seems you are reading too much into what I wrote or not fully comprehending the nuance between the question I posed versus the many replies that have attempted to answer an unasked question. If there was any anger in my comments, please point it out. I don't remember feeling angry while writing any of my comments.

Although anger may be justified, towards whom should it be directed? Korea and Koreans have, let's just say, a cornucopia of issues we need to deal with, but most of my compatriots never start with what's staring at them in the mirror. Koreans unconsciously focus on our victimhood, to our own detriment. It's part of the psychosis that I mentioned earlier. I can go on and on...

Regarding your comment on Korean historiography, you couldn't be more wrong. It's just the sort of uneducated insult that inflames Koreans and Koreanophiles. But before you say, "see what I mean", I'll put it into some context. The fact is there are many many more Sinophiles and Japanophiles than Koreanophiles. This is very important to consider, because anything in history not sprinkled with kimchee went to China or Japan, whether true or not. And most of this happened while Korea was at its weakest and many of its cultural artifacts stolen or destroyed.

China, although foreign ruled at the time, was obviously a very large and very old civilization and attracted many Sinophiles. Japan, the first to be modernized, precisely because of its weakness in East Asia, was able to dedicate resources to cultural revivalism and attract Japanophiles. For example, Bushido is described as an ancient honor code used by the Samurai. Very cool... They always fail to mention that Bushido was only coined in the 19th century, when their cultural revivalism was going on.

I started going into a longer rant, but this isn't the proper venue.

NOTA said...

Anon 7:11:

More like the original virus libel. Or maybe dried pus libel. No blood involved in the story at all. And while whites probably didn't intentionally engage in germ warfare against american indians, the eurasian package of contagious disease pretty well cleared out the continent when it arrrived. That isn't anyone's fault, it's just the way things worked out.

Svigor said...

We blame Mexicans for coming to the US, but we forget that it is the American drug habit and the american drug war that has wrecked Mexico and made it a bad place to live.

This guy's just lobbing meatballs.

Yeah, we forced Mexicans to sell drugs and shoot each other. Okay.

When Americans deal guns to Mexicans, Americans are the bad guy. The dealers are the purveyors of evil.

When Mexicans deal drugs to Americans, Americans are the bad guy. The customers are the purveyors of evil.

"Drug War," lol. Like we landed at Cancun with 10 divisions. Nobody's forcing the little brown wretches to mutilate one another. Mexico's well-fed and full of fat people.

Anonymous said...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31wy85JcWPA

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/22/books/22book.html

"The most eye-opening sections of “The Korean War” detail America’s saturation bombing of Korea’s north. “What hardly any Americans know or remember,” Mr. Cumings writes, “is that we carpet-bombed the north for three years with next to no concern for civilian casualties.” The United States dropped more bombs in Korea (635,000 tons, as well as 32,557 tons of napalm) than in the entire Pacific theater during World War II. Our logic seemed to be, he says, that “they are savages, so that gives us the right to shower napalm on innocents.”"

War is hell.

Cumings may be right about US atrocities but he's scum and so is NY Times for praising this apologist of a totalitarian regime.

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2004/09/mother-of-all-mothers/303403/

Anonymous said...

War is hell.

My hope is that reunification happens peacefully and all Koreans become prosperous.

It's a very fine line that each Korea has to walk and need lots of luck. The North has to survive long enough as a nuclear state to eventually be tolerated as one by the West. The South has to provide increasing profits to its Western investors, while asking for a slow withdrawal of US forces. Both Japan and China has to be okay with a unified Korea. China has to be okay with a nuclear Japan. The West has to be okay with 3 East Asian nuclear states. The US economy can't decline too fast. China can't rise too fast. And everyone has to feel like they can benefit from a unified Korea. It's a tough sell.

Svigor said...

Steve, I know you don't allow "holocaust denial" here, but you need to understand that even orthodox historians of the Jewish holocaust regard lampshades of Jewish skin and soap from Jewish fat as M-Y-T-H-S. They find them embarrassing and want nothing to do with them. I'll help you through this with sources debunking both myths.

Part I: Lampshades from Human Skin

All my sources here come from the first 10 Google results for a search for myth human skin lampshades (or from links on those pages).

Wikipedia: The Lampshade: A Holocaust Detective Story from Buchenwald to New Orleans

In the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina, a lampshade, purported to be made from the skin of a Jewish Holocaust victim, turned up in a sidewalk rummage sale in New Orleans.

...

Genetic testing showed that it was indeed made from human skin.

...

Both the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum in Washington, D.C., and the Yad Vashem museum in Jerusalem, declined to take possession of the lampshade, saying that the concentration camp lampshades made of human skin were probably a "myth."

...

In 2012 the lampshade was subjected to more sophisticated next-generation DNA testing and was found to be cow skin with 100% certainty.

NPR: New Book Tells Grim Story Of 'The Lampshade'

KALISH: Despite the many stories and the film footage, the use of skin for lampshades is largely seen as mythology, something Mark Jacobson discovered when he tried to donate the lampshade to the Yad Vashem museum in Jerusalem and the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum in Washington, D.C.

The Straight Dope: Did the Nazis make lampshades out of human skin?

Absent compelling evidence to the contrary, I tend to the view that appalled liberation forces heard the survivors' tales, found the tattooed-skin souvenirs, and thought: Whoa, lampshades. In short, the story may be a legend.

In The Lampshade: A Holocaust Detective Story from Buchenwald to New Orleans (2010), New York magazine contributing editor Mark Jacobson tells of a lampshade discovered in the wreckage of post-Katrina New Orleans that testing showed to be made of human skin. (Here's an excerpt.) According to a Publishers Weekly review quoted on Amazon, "evidence linking it to famous allegations that Nazis made lampshades from concentration camp victims is scanty, and Holocaust museum curators dismiss such claims."