December 18, 2013

Will New York become a Chinese city?

From the NYT:
Chinese Reshape New York’s Immigration Mix 
By KIRK SEMPLE 3:00 PM ET 
The city’s immigrant population has reached 3.1 million, led by a tremendous growth in the Chinese population. 
Dominicans have been the largest immigrant group in the city since 1990 and currently number about 380,200 residents. But the Chinese, who have held the No. 2 spot for that period, are now close behind, with 350,200. While the Dominican population has grown about 3 percent in the past decade, the Chinese population has grown by 34 percent. China was also the single largest source of legally admitted immigrants in New York City from 2002 to 2011, said the report, which was largely based on Census Bureau data as well other federal and city administrative data. 
“China seems to be surging,” Mr. Salvo said. The data, he added, “points to China ultimately becoming the largest source of immigrants to New York.” 
Much of the Chinese immigration, the demographers found, is driven by asylum petitions. More than 40 percent of all Chinese immigrants who were legally admitted in New York between 2002 and 2011 received asylum.

Asylum from what? From having less money than they'd like?
Still, the rate of growth among the Chinese pales in comparison to the Mexicans. In the past decade, the Mexican population has surged by 52 percent, the largest spurt of any group, vaulting them over the Guyanese and the Jamaicans and moving them into third place among the largest foreign-born group in the city.

In the long run, you've got to bet on the Chinese over the Mexicans for taking over New York City. There are a lot more Chinese, they're better at making money, and they like crowded urban life, while Mexicans prefer exurbs, hate public transportation and love large private vehicles, and despise apartment buildings in favor of houses with yards. (In all of the NYT's Carlos Slim-financed hollering for more Mexicans, they've worked very hard to not notice that in a lot of ways related to preferred lifestyle, Mexicans are South Texans.) In contrast, the Chinese supposedly have a word to describe the perfect ambiance of a restaurant: hot, crowded, and noisy.

87 comments:

Anonymous said...

I don't know about Chinese not liking suburbs, the San Gabriel Valley and Irvine are not the usual New York Cities. I bet at the most Asians only make up 20 percent where Latins will be 30 percent and Whites and Blacks the rest.

Simon in London said...

"In the long run, you've got to bet on the Chinese over the Mexicans for taking over New York City."

I would never, ever bet against the current owners. :p

Anonymous said...

International buyers were involved in more than 6 percent of U.S. residential real estate deals in the year ending March 2013, according NAR. Those transactions were valued at roughly $68 billion. One out of every eight of these international deals involved a Chinese buyer. Aside from New York, NAR lists the most popular cities for Chinese investors as Los Angeles, Irvine, Detroit, Las Vegas and Orlando.
Orlando and Irvine more suburbs, Irvine even more so.

Anonymous said...

Also, interesting enough Santa Ana California is in some ways like New York in being heavily in the foreign born and density populated. New York over 20,000 and Santa Ana almost 12,000. Santa Ana lacks tall buildings and high rises and a New York like public transportation but Mexicans and other Latins are not bothered by high population density.

countenance said...

Any room in America for Americans?

Paul Mendez said...

I don't know about Chinese not liking suburbs, the San Gabriel Valley and Irvine are not the usual New York Cities.

I agree -- very few Chinese living in DC. Many, many Chinese living in the affluent Maryland and Virginia suburbs.

Ding Dong said...

"Asylum from what? From having less money than they'd like?"

China no have 'gay marriage'.

Anonymous said...

The thing about Chinese though.. once they settle here, they don't have lot of kids and their kids have even less. So, if we shut the yellow flow, yellows here will dwindle.

Browns and blacks, in contrast, keep breeding like crazy here.

Anonymous said...

Maybe NY is following Toronto's lead.

Anonymous said...

>>There are a lot more Chinese, they're better at making money, and they like crowded urban life, while Mexicans prefer exurbs, hate public transportation and love large private vehicles, and despise apartment buildings in favor of houses with yards.<<

I don't know where you're getting your information about Mexicans, Steve. Is it still that Castañeda book? Maybe you should read something by someone who has actually lived in a working or middle class Mexican home. I have lived in middle class Mexican households and I don't recognize Castañeda's Mexico except as what the upper class privileged insider elites think of us.

The median Mexican's neighborhood has a density of 10-20,000 people per square mile. The median Chinese lives in a central village with a density under one person per acre or 640 people per square mile.

China has cities available for migration and Mexico has rural areas with local councils (ejidos) that will offer land to use almost for free to farmers in some districts. The Mexicans, at least, choose their population density.

And the Mexicans choose to live at 20-30 times the density of Chinese.

Yes, Mexicans prefer houses to apartments, but that density quoted is achieved with houses. Tokyo doesn't have many apartments, either, in proportion but I wouldn't call it an exurb.

And Mexico has a prosperous and high quality public transportation industry that the public enjoys in both urban and rural areas. The Mexico Metro and Metrobús are famous but it's the rural public transit that always impresses me.

But I think you're right about New York City. Over the past six years, each year has seen more people moving from the USA to Mexico than the reverse. There aren't going to be enough Mexican migrants to fill New York. Maybe they'll get Salvadorians, Cubans, and Guatemalans, though. And the Chinese look likely to keep coming.

Anonymous said...

"In the long run, you've got to bet on the Chinese over the Mexicans for taking over New York City."

From the Jews? No way.
Chinese may dominate economically over second-rate peoples like Indonesians and Malaysians, but they can't stack up against the Jews in talent, depth, knowledge, and networking.
I see a rise of Chinese middle class and even upper middle class and even some Chinese doing very well, but the elites of NY will remain Jewish.

Anonymous said...

"I would never, ever bet against the current owners. :p

The Ashkenazim are a mix of Old Testament Hebrews and Europeans. It's quite possible that the elite of the future will be a mix of current Ashkenazim and Chinese. A half-breed elite made up of people like Amy Chua's kids, the Zuck spawn, etc. would find it easier to establish itself in China than a completely alien (to the Chinese) elite.


el supremo said...

The process by which waves poor Chinese migrants receive asylum is the US is truly absurd. There is a network of people who spread stories of what currently works with sympathetic asylum hearing judges.

One of the current favorites is the persecution of Christians - a real issue, but most of the people claiming to be persecuted Christians have to get coached in the basics of the religion they are supposedly suffering to practice. Sometimes they fail to even understand the basics of Christianity in their hearings. Relatives who are corrupt officials rightly put in jail get turned into political prisoners.

Even the NY Times reported on it:
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/19/nyregion/law-firms-accused-of-aiding-chinese-immigrants-false-asylum-claims.html

There was a wave of legitimate asylum claims after the 1989 Tiananmen Square incident, where a number of academics were resettled, but they have been dwarfed by these dubious ones since then.

Luke Lea said...

"One of the current favorites is the persecution of Christians"

These Chinese Christians need to stay at home where, as in ancient Rome, they might eventually overturn the state. There are some regions where that is already starting to happen -- Wouzaou (sp?) or something like that, north of Shanghai.

Anonymous said...

I think it is possible that NYC could have a Chinese-Jewish elite in the near future. It seems some here are forgetting how much young Jewish guys are into east Asian women, at least in the NYC area.

Sometimes it seems almost half the Jewish guys I know have Chinese or Korean wives or girlfriends. Maybe there will even be a half Chinese, half Ashkenazi Jewish "Bloomberg" mayor some day.

Steve Sailer said...

The Coen Brothers latest movie is set in New York in 1961. It features a Jewish male - Chinese female couple who are merging their surnames into "Greenfong," which the permanently grumpy protagonist Llewyn Davis find derisible.

Anonymous said...

The process by which waves poor Chinese migrants receive asylum is the US is truly absurd. There is a network of people who spread stories of what currently works with sympathetic asylum hearing judges.

8K were given asylum in 2011. Hard to get worked up about a small-time racket, when hundreds of thousands of Africans, Asians and Central Americans enter every year to lead perfectly ordinary lives using authentic-looking fake ID's.

Anonymous said...

Here in newly fashionable Kensington
Brooklyn the people rummaging through the recycling bags for cans to collect the deposit are East Asian I assume some sort of Chinese.

I have also noticed many of the postal workers are East Asian which is fine with me except why bring in immigrants to do make work jobs.

News from Chinatown Brooklyn NY USA a Maoist murder:

Man who stabbed mother, 4 children reportedly was jealous of their lifestyle

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/10/28/man-fatally-stabs-mother-4-children-in-brooklyn-home/

As a special bonus observation the local KFC seems to have fired all the Blacks and replaced them with Pakistanis. I sort of liked the chubby 30 something Black ladies and will miss them.

Anonymous said...

Sometimes it seems almost half the Jewish guys I know have Chinese or Korean wives or girlfriends.

Their offspring will constitute a sizable portion of Ivy league applicants that check the "White" box.

jody said...

can't pretty much any city which allows lots of immigrants turn into a chinese city in say 20 years? i mean, there are a billion chinese, and half of them would like to leave.

on a seperate note:

dominican
chinese
mexican
guyanese
jamaican

are the biggest groups? what the heck kind of place does that make? that is going to be one weird city in the future.

never before have there been such random, useless, and pointless conglomerations of completely different, and not complementary, people, as are developing in some US cities today.

any room in america for americans indeed.

Anonymous said...

Chinese immigrants love the suburbs of Toronto, specifically Markham and Vaughan.

sunbeam said...

An Anonymous wrote:

"I think it is possible that NYC could have a Chinese-Jewish elite in the near future. It seems some here are forgetting how much young Jewish guys are into east Asian women, at least in the NYC area.

Sometimes it seems almost half the Jewish guys I know have Chinese or Korean wives or girlfriends. Maybe there will even be a half Chinese, half Ashkenazi Jewish "Bloomberg" mayor some day. "

Meh, never get this yellow fever thing. Nothing against them, but not exactly to my tastes. Whatever floats your boat though.

Another Anoymous wrote:

"From the Jews? No way.
Chinese may dominate economically over second-rate peoples like Indonesians and Malaysians, but they can't stack up against the Jews in talent, depth, knowledge, and networking.

I see a rise of Chinese middle class and even upper middle class and even some Chinese doing very well, but the elites of NY will remain Jewish. "

Yeah. We'll see ok. As an outsider it sure seems like it could happen very easily.

Wonder if we could make some kind of Long Bet on that one.

Whiskey said...

Steve I'd in the words of the great Wesley Snipes, "always bet on Black."

Black violence tends to trump other things. When politics are in doubt, riots and street thuggery and multiple voting have proven hard to beat in America's cities. So, I would bet against Chinese and on folks like Obama. After all, it was Obama not say, a Chinese background guy.

Enough anti-Chinese violence and colonization of key areas stops. See Black on Hasidic violence in Crown Heights.

Yes it is true that Mexican and Central American mass immigration has pushed Blacks out of South Central and Watts, Compton, but there is a difference between hard guys from Michoacan and guys from Shanghai.

Anonymous said...

"Asylum from what?"

From the one-child policy. Chinese who want free housing, food, education, and health care for the numerous children they'd like to have are welcome in NYC.

Anonymous said...

A Chinese business school classmate received asylum from Canada. She said she used the one-child rule as the basis. Funny thing is she only has one child.

Anonymous said...

I tutored Chinese ESL students at UNC 25 years ago. Sen Jesse Helms helped many (hundreds? more?) Chinese students stay here.
They knew the magic words: communism bad, America good.
A Taiwanese student told me mainlanders were conning ole Jesse. I thought it was sour grapes.
Mainland Chinese play the very long game; they think in terms of hundreds of years.
Many wanted to have a child in America to bypass China's one child policy. Their policy is one child born in China. I had no idea they were also creating anchor babies.

Anonymous said...

These Chinese Christians need to stay at home where, as in ancient Rome, they might eventually overturn the state.

Well if they're Christian, then they're not home, since Christianity isn't a Chinese religion.

Mike said...

The thing about the Chinese in NYC is that they form their own enclave and rarely spill over or interact with other communities. You have the upper class Chinese in Flushing and the poor Chinese in Sunset Park and Chinatown. The Chinese aren't really "part" of New York but sort of live "adjacent" to it, so to speak. They take advantage of the business opportunities but really don't participate in the city. So I don't see them "taking over" anything but just quietly making money as they have from time immemorial and love so much to do. Good for them.

All the best neighborhoods and the coolest parts of town in Manhattan and Brooklyn are heavily populated by whites and perhaps secular assimilated Jews. And the Chinese rarely live in or interact with members of these communities. Take a walk down Bedford Avenue in Willaimsburg and you feel like you are in some Scandinavian country the people are so overwhelmingly white. It's like that in most of Williamsburg and the good parts of Manhattan. It's extremely rare to see any Asians in the hip clubs and bars of Willy.

The thing about NYC is that in terms of social life and living its really segregated even though since so many communities jostle for space and work in close proximity there are times of the day and places - like the subway - where it can seem like it's really mixed. Although there are times of day and week when the subway can feel like whitopia and other times when you might think you're landed in Guatemala.

Mike said...

It's not that Jewish guys like Asian women, it's that they have an easier time getting them than white girls. Trust me I know the Jewish attitude very, very well. I'm half-Jewish. They prefer shiksa white girls perhaps above any other group - even than Jewish girls- but Jews in New York for some reason look very ethnic, dark, and non-European. They don't really look like Zuckerburg. And non-Jewish white girls in NYC, who are often from very white places like the South or the Midwest, really don't like ethnic looking or dark guys too much. They pretty much prefer very white looking guys like you might find on Abercrombie and Fitch or Hollywood white types - in other words guys like themselves. It is amazing to me just how much whites are closet racists to a degree you would never believe! NYC really segregates.

Asian girls are not highly sought after in NYC, and Jews also emphasize things that Asians do t, like wealth and success over "coolness" or literary and aesthetic and lifestyle factors like whites do, so that's what makes it easier for Jews to hook up with Asians (for a white girl, which cool countries you've traveled to, what literature you've read, what art you appreciate, how witty you are, how interesting your conversation is, how fascinating a person you are, are what matters, for an Asian girl, how much money and what's your job are far more salient factors. Obviously both groups like all these things but it's a question of emphasis)

Also, it's easy to overstate Jewish elite status in NYC. If it truly existed, they would be the most sought after as mates by women, yet they aren't. Wasn't it Jane Austen who said that you can tell a groups true status by how sought after the men are as mates? Or something like that. While Jews occupy very high profile positions in NYC and are perhaps its wealthiest community, the best and coolest neighborhoods and the best clubs and bars are populated by whites. The white position in NYC I would say displays a different pattern than the Jewish but is probably more salient. It isn't as high profile, but in numbers and diffusion it probably matters more.

Renault said...

@ 3:01

Jews outbreed with White gentiles far more often than with Asian gentiles.

Anonymous said...

By my observation of how US-East Asian marriages trend (invariably, almost, the guy is US), I see a lot of Jewish-Chinese pairings and Anglo/Protestant-Japanese.

The reverse cases (again, US guys) seems much less, especially Jewish-Japanese.

Anyone else notice this or is it just my imagination?

Anonymous said...

Another aside Latino-Black cities, both Camden New Jersey and Compton California have high birth rates I was shocked when I read an article by Rolling Stone mag on Camden NJ having about 30 percent of the population under 18 years old and Compton has 33 percent. The data is taken from 2010 which in the case particularly of Compton might see a dropped since Compton is high on illegal immigration.

Anonymous said...

And this from Canada:

The Somali autism puzzle
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/health-and-fitness/health/conditions/the-somali-autism-puzzle/article572688/

Anonymous said...

I saw the original King Kong movie. In New York everybody was white. Funny how nobody was asked if they wanted to be flooded with Chinese, Dominicans, Guyanese, Jamaicans, etc.

Anonymous said...

But I think you're right about New York City. Over the past six years, each year has seen more people moving from the USA to Mexico than the reverse. There aren't going to be enough Mexican migrants to fill New York. Maybe they'll get Salvadorians, Cubans, and Guatemalans, though. And the Chinese look likely to keep come
Are you from Mexico, I would agree with you if the US doesn't legalized Mexicans this is true but if they legalized Mexicans they may come to the US since their relatives can get vistas to stay in the US. And the Pew Hispanic agrees with your observation to a certain degree. Mexico Remittances are down from their peak in 2006 while Central America is up.

Anonymous said...

Chinese from Hong Kong are in the process of taking over Vancouver, BC in Canada. Chinese form about 28% of the population of the city and whites have dropped to 46%. East Indians meanwhile are flocking to suburbs, but avoid Vancouver city because of the high cost of living.


Anonymous said...

After 50+ years in Silicon Valley and in business there my gut tells me that if you compared Chinese American with whites of the same IQ, the whites would earn more. White Americans are dominant in the business world while Chinese are almost all in technical fields. Call me what you will, I think the main skill they have is getting high test and gpa numbers that don't translate well into real achievement. Ed Realist attests to that. Also some of Steve's writing about countries with a math/reading imbalance like China doing worse than more balanced cultures. Maybe a week back in San Jose influences these comments.

Hail said...

"Any room in America for Americans? "

Going to New York City, one is shocked a little that one sees very few actual 'Americans' around.

The ethnic core of the USA is certainly a tiny minority in that city. There are probably four Jews alone for every White-Protestant in NYC.

agnostic said...

"I think it is possible that NYC could have a Chinese-Jewish elite in the near future."

Life in the Center of the Universe is going to get real interesting if the two most globally reviled ethnic groups team up to rule over everyone else.

"It seems some here are forgetting how much young Jewish guys are into east Asian women, at least in the NYC area."

I always wondered where this "OMG, Asian babes!" meme came from -- must have been the Jews. You don't see them featured on magazine covers, given eye candy roles in movies or TV or pop music, and so on.

It could be a nerd thing, hence the tie-in with Jews, though I think only the really hardcore gentile nerds have yellow fever -- the kind who would move to Tokyo. The average gentile nerd seems more interested in the video game character girls, butt-kicking babes, etc., though all recognizably European (looks and behavior).

Anonymous said...

"Chinese may dominate economically over second-rate peoples like Indonesians and Malaysians, but they can't stack up against the Jews in talent, depth, knowledge, and networking.
I see a rise of Chinese middle class and even upper middle class and even some Chinese doing very well, but the elites of NY will remain Jewish. "

Merchants hailing from Shaanxi province managed to best their Jewish counterparts in the Central Asian parts of the Tsarist Empire during the late Qing Dynasty. Russian observers at the time said it was the first time they'd seen such a thing.

Anonymous said...

" White Americans are dominant in the business world while Chinese are almost all in technical fields. Call me what you will, I think the main skill they have is getting high test and gpa numbers that don't translate well into real achievement. Ed Realist attests to that. Also some of Steve's writing about countries with a math/reading imbalance like China doing worse than more balanced cultures. "

In PISA tests Eastern Asians beat their counterparts in the West in both math and reading.

The Cantonese also readily ousted the Brits from their dominant position in Hong Kong's business world while it was still their colony.

I'd say your visceral intuition is really nothing more than envy and wishful thinking.

Anonymous said...

Life in the Center of the Universe is going to get real interesting if the two most globally reviled ethnic groups team up to rule over everyone else.

I wouldn't say Chinese are the most globally reviled ethnic group. Within Asia, the Japanese are reviled the most. Outside of Asia and among non-Asians, people generally don't distinguish between the Chinese and other Orientals in their revulsion. Generally, if they revile an Oriental group, they revile them generally without distinguishing between Oriental groups since the differences are irrelevant to them.

Mike said...

So Jews have an IQ of 110-115 - depending on which authority you use - and Chinese have an IQ of 100-104 depending on which authority you use. Chinese were competing against 80s IQ Phillippinos and Jews were competing against 103 IQ Germans. That pretty much says it all.

Whats interesting to me is that Germans have an IQ higher than American whites, yet Jewish dominance in Germany was far greater than Jewish dominance in America. I wonder why that should be? I was raised in the Jewish community to regard whites as much stupider than us, but the first thing I and many of my purely Jewish friends learned when we went out into the real world is that in NYC at least, whites are not stupid. NYC whites are not in the least bit less intelligent than Jews. I remember discussing with my friends how what he had taken for granted turned out to be a complete myth.

I now think that the quality in which Jews excel is ambition and sheer drive. Sheer drive should not be underestimated and might even form the majority of any kind of success assuming some baseline level of talent. Didn't someone somewhere say that half the battle is showing up? Well, Jews show up, and how. Jews can be relentless - as if driven by an inner demon that gives them no peace - in a way that I have rarely seen with whites, who lack that kind of intensity. I believe this Jewish intensity comes at least partly from status anxiety produced by perceiving themselves as outsiders who need to prove themselves. That this outmoded perception still retains its hold on the Jewish mind may be surprising but is something I can attest to, although I do think it's lessening of late, with predictable consequences (wasn't it reported recently that Jews no longer do so well on the various prestigious math and science awards?)

Both Chinese and Jews are raised to think they are smarter than whites, but when Jews find out it isn't true (at least in their immediate environment) they take it well; it doesn't really bother them. Chinese, on the other hand,absolutely freak out. Holy cow! I'm sure other people know what I am talking about. Yan Shen used to be a pretty good example of this. The resentment, envy, and bitterness has to be seen to be believed. I wonder why the reaction should be s different?

Anonymous said...

Take a walk down Bedford Avenue in Willaimsburg and you feel like you are in some Scandinavian country the people are so overwhelmingly white.

The people are white, but it doesn't look like Scandinavia at all. You don't see the "all-American" look there. It's very brunette.

Anonymous said...

>>"I always wondered where this "OMG, Asian babes!" meme came from -- must have been the Jews. You don't see them featured on magazine covers, given eye candy roles in movies or TV or pop music, and so on."


Of course! Who do you think really spread the popularity of Chinese food to the rest of America? New York.


And who do you think were the main western consumers of Chinese food (or the Americanized version of Chinese food)?

It was all the Jews who lived in neighborhoods nearby to Chinatown, which is to say....NY Jews.

Ever notice in various films that have a "Jewish" character (also includes such luminaries as Seinfeld to Woody Allen) they're always talking about and mentioning their love for Chinese food?

Honestly, you never ever hear such Americans as Jeff Foxworthy, Larry the Cable Guy, Duck Dynasty, or even normal WASPS (you know, what was once numbered between 85% of US but is still around 70% or so) you NEVER heard these societal archetypes hankering to get themselves some Chinese food.

You never heard it, except from one enthic, the Jews, more specifically the Jews of New York.

Wonder why? Don't Jews particularly like their own cuisine?

Guess not all that much.

Anonymous said...

One of the current favorites is the persecution of Christians - a real issue, but most of the people claiming to be persecuted Christians have to get coached in the basics of the religion they are supposedly suffering to practice.

I wonder how many of them learn the basics of Christianity from Chick tracts?

Well if they're Christian, then they're not home, since Christianity isn't a Chinese religion.

It wasn't a Roman religion either.

Anonymous said...

I tutored Chinese ESL students at UNC 25 years ago. Sen Jesse Helms helped many (hundreds? more?) Chinese students stay here.
They knew the magic words: communism bad, America good.
A Taiwanese student told me mainlanders were conning ole Jesse. I thought it was sour grapes.
Mainland Chinese play the very long game; they think in terms of hundreds of years.
Many wanted to have a child in America to bypass China's one child policy. Their policy is one child born in China. I had no idea they were also creating anchor babies.

That's not unbelievable, a lot of right wing anti-communists types get con by legal or illegal immigrants. Reagan legalized the Mexicans because Mexico needed the US to export some of its people because the Commies might have taken over Mexico Reagan said this once. Robert Dornan who once had Loretta Sanchez's congressional district had Vietnamese working for him because they were anti-communists. Not surprise that the Chinese use the communists line to get into North Carolina and Jessie Helms would fall for it.

Anonymous said...

"It could be a nerd thing, hence the tie-in with Jews, though I think only the really hardcore gentile nerds have yellow fever "

You're getting it backwards. East Asian women are attracted to white nerds. Nerds will respond to anyone who will have them.

Let's say that the average East Asian man scores 2 on the machismo scale, the average white nerd scores 3, the average white man 5, the average NFLer 9. It just so happens that Asian women's sweet spot of attraction is in the 3 to 4 range. It IS possible to be too macho. I wonder if Roissy has ever acknowledged that. Regardless of whether or not he has, it's true. The "too macho" threshold is different for different sorts of women. For all I know it could be 10 or 9.8 for black women. Asian women already start losing interest at 5.

ysv_rao said...


These Chinese Christians need to stay at home where, as in ancient Rome, they might eventually overturn the state.

Well if they're Christian, then they're not home, since Christianity isn't a Chinese religion."

And it was a Roman religion how exactly?

Anonymous said...

You think women like NFL players for their looks, its mainly their money. Lost of pretty boys not gay do better than guys thought more male. In fact the ultra males do the worst unless they had lots of money like Arnold. The average looking male with some money does better than the poor jock without money. Women go for guys that can make it. Guys go more for looks, sorry. For example, Leonard Nimoy the nerd Jew got more fan mail than your average weight lifter since he was the Stoic Vulcan Character that was hard to bring down.

sunbeam said...

Mike wrote:

"And non-Jewish white girls in NYC, who are often from very white places like the South or the Midwest, really don't like ethnic looking or dark guys too much. They pretty much prefer very white looking guys like you might find on Abercrombie and Fitch or Hollywood white types - in other words guys like themselves. It is amazing to me just how much whites are closet racists to a degree you would never believe! NYC really segregates. "

What particular duty do they have to do otherwise?

Seems to me, and it has been discussed many times on this site, that this sort of attitude is almost entirely a northwestern european attitude. Does anyone else in the world share it?

Does anyone walk up to black or hispanic women and say: "You, yes you there. You really ought to date some Asian guys. It's the RIGHT thing to do."

Which leads me to a Clintonian moment. What do you mean by racist anyway? If a woman like this doesn't find a certain type appealing, she has to change her sensibilities to accommodate the belief and attitudes of someone else?

You know, I wish someone would define exactly what racism is. Of course that would mean we have someone who is designated to define it.

I mean if you are not going to put a slave collar or work someone in a sweatshop, or rip them off...

But you really don't want to date them, you are a racist?

What about ugly people? Fat people? Smokers? We are going beyond race here, but the principle is the same. What about someone who is retarded? Someone who is blind? Someone who is obnoxious?

Seems to me that it's time to pull out the quote:

"‘When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, ‘it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less.'
‘The question is,' said Alice, ‘whether you can make words mean so many different things."
‘The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, ‘which is to be master—that's all.'"

Anonymous said...

I had a friend who I recently found it became a millionaire the guy was a nerd as a kid but not a great student until college where he earned a law degree. His current wife not a great beauty told me that he was married before her. They are both white and he was a big Star Trek fan instead of the surfing jocks in Orange County that probably might not have made his money. He is in Florida now. So looks are not everything as much to women as they are to men.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous at 12/18/13, 9:21 PM

I totally agree. But I will add, that even within any given race, there is a LOT of variation. I will use the White race as an example since it is most familiar to me and most ppl in the United States. A White girl who came from a broken family, has a low IQ, is either very attractive or very ugly, low education, low income, and prole is going to want a man who is a 6-7 on the machismo scale. Occasionally you will see one who wants an 8-9. These types of girls go for White Alpha males or Black males. On the opposite side of the spectrum, a White girl who comes from a nuclear family, has a high IQ, is of middling attractiveness, high education, high income, and upper middle class is going to want a man who is a 4-5 on the machismo scale. This is part of the reason why upper middle class, high IQ women have less divorce than low IQ prole women. Because the UMC smart women can easily get commitment from their ideal men, whereas dumb prole women are hopelessly chasing after alphas who will never commit.

Guesses for the desired level of machismo, based on the woman's race and/or class:
Black: 8-9
Hispanic: 6-7
Prole White: 6-7
SWPL White: 4-5
Asian: 3

Whiskey said...

Chinese, Japanese, and to lesser extent Korean (they outmarry less than the other two groups) have a higher tolerance for NERD among men. Hence the appeal to nerdy men of Asian women.

As for Asian women generally, Satoshi Kanazawa found Asian women were rated the most attractive by men of all races, and Asian men the least. This corresponds to the reality of Asian men constantly complaining of their undervaluation in the mate and sex market, and Asian women being "poached" particularly by White guys. Asian women don't generally find thuggishness without money and power that LASTS very exciting, which probably speaks to a higher level of clannishness. HBD Chick IIRC has some thoughts on that.

Black men were of course found to be the most attractive in Kanazawa's study, by women of all races, and Black women the least by men of all races. Steve has touched on those themes before.

That's if you believe Kanazawa's study. I find it credible at least.

Certainly if you did a study of say, adult films, you'd find lots and lots of featured Asian actresses. Revealed preference: what guys will pay for signals preferences in that regard.

The guys I did know who married Asian women were a mixed bunch. Some total nerds, run completely by their fresh-off-the-boat wives, others total players who consistently had a thing for Asian women.

Whiskey said...

As for Chinese domination, I would not bet on that happening.

First, the existing structure is heavily aligned with Democratic politics and media and infotainment. I.E. elite Whites, Blacks, Dominicans, Puerto Ricans, Jamaicans, etc. New York's politics is aimed at extracting the maximum transfer from Albany and DC to fund "fairness" efforts that provides "respectable" earnings and careers for connected family kids.

Think of this as American Princelings, non-explicit Communist version.

Any challenge from an overseas competitor backed by a great power and that does not critically deliver both money AND VOTES at election time is going to find it very heavy going.

The Sailer Hi-Lo team up is not going to take kindly to Chinese interlopers sure to propose things like locking up street thugs because its good for business. Those are VOTERS dammit.

De Blasio represents the dream of NYC's elite. A perpetual money machine, that also gives status by "uplifting" non-Whites with dark skin. Money flows in from DC and Albany, anything else would be "racist" and it is doled out to long-time connected insiders for boondoggles and vote getting.

No icky industry, no nasty importing, a total SWPL playground with those voters and potential uplift candidates shoved out to the outer boroughs or Harlem.

Chinese elites would set up a giant factory spewing out non-green carbon emissions, set up a container port instead of "green space" or a fabulous indie art gallery, and otherwise directly challenge the standing elites.

I expect vote-challenges, residency challenges, etc. if the Chinese diaspora dares to challenge the elite supremacy in NYC.

Anonymous said...

"The average looking male with some money does better than the poor jock without money. Women go for guys that can make it."

Definitely. I was a macho Marine from age 17 to 21. That seemed generally to work against things with the ladies, even far from base.

While and after I got educated and started having more prospects, things got a lot easier. Actually, at that point, the Marine experience helped with women, I assume because I was now a nice civilized person with a future but presumably could be macho in a pinch because of my past.

Anonymous said...

Very scientific.

Matthew said...

"They pretty much prefer very white looking guys like you might find on Abercrombie and Fitch or Hollywood white types - in other words guys like themselves. It is amazing to me just how much whites are closet racists to a degree you would never believe!"

So the shiksas keep turning you down, and it must be because they're racists? Newsflash: pale-skinned, "non-ethnic" white guys get turned down by white girls all the time.

In general, women are more inclined than men to prefer a mate of their own race. The preference gap isn't racial, it's sexual.

Simon in London said...

anon:
"a nice civilized person with a future but presumably could be macho in a pinch because of my past"

That does sound to me like what most women want in a husband - a civilised man who can be uncivilised if he needs to defend her.

Anonymous said...

"I was raised in the Jewish community to regard whites as much stupider than us, but the first thing I and many of my purely Jewish friends learned when we went out into the real world is that in NYC at least, whites are not stupid. NYC whites are not in the least bit less intelligent than Jews. I remember discussing with my friends how what he had taken for granted turned out to be a complete myth."

Maybe NY attracts the smarter whites and/or maybe you are an average IQ Jew.

Anthony said...

When I was in college, while the hottest girls were white (or Latina), Asian girls were *on average* hotter - fewer fatties, less acne, longer hair, less attitude. For a guy who knows he's not going to get one of the top 10% of the girls, the Asian girls are pretty interesting.

Anonymous said...

Of course, it was white people who originally took over NY from the Native Americans. ;)

Anonymous said...

Alot of self-serving narratives, which makes examining some basic data inconvenient. This is why WMAF has by far the highest income and age gap. There's not a close 2nd grouping.

Chinese girls pick those guys because Chinese girls are coming from a country of poverty with zero generational wealth. The majority of their parent's generation was in danger of starvation just 1 to 1.5 generations ago. When the median wage in their country is close to $1.50/hr, it's obvious why they flock to American men. Still Chinese girls will pick Western Chinese guys over their white male counterparts. Let's deal with some facts.

Anonymous said...

The census showed white women marry Korean men at a higher rate than any other. I'd almost certain that Japanese men came in second. How does this square with some of your beliefs?

Bert said...

Only on iSteve could a discussion about increased Chinese immigration into NYC devolved into a debate about how much Jewish men prefer Asian women.

Good lord, you people.

Also, you guys vastly over-estimate Jewish political power in NYC. The Big Apple is nowhere near what it was in the 1980s, when the city had six Jewish congressmen and Ed Koch and his cabal ruled the city unchallenged.

d..... said...

The usual comments from people obsessed with Jooz ("the current owners" ha, like I own anything), and who don't know NYC.

Yes, a disproportionate share of the Park Ave. billionaires are Jewish, like Bloomberg. But the nouveau riche who live in places like this:

http://tinyurl.com/mnnqynu

are foreign moneybags. They are building another monstrosity down the street from One57. Fie on them.

Regarding who peoples NYC's political class, that is straight from the streets. The City Council, Boro Presidents, Comptroller, various clubs, etc., are straight from the streets.

And as the Chinese become the middle class, they will inherit their share of the power. Eventually we will have a Chinese mayor. The first Jewish mayor of NYC didn't happen until 1970. La Guardia doesn't count. He was sui generis.

At the last party of my local club, I noticed a lot of blacks, even though my area is not black at all and demographic share of AA's in NYC is declining. They are very entrenched in the machine. No Asians as yet. It will happen.

d..... said...

One more phun phact about One57, this towering inferno above the 57th Street sky....interiors are being done by Yabu Pushelberg, a gay couple straight outta Hunger Games. I'm not making their names or any of this up.

The gay elite is a pervasive factor in modern life. They don't have numbers but they control a lot. They steer the car from the back seat. There is a dirty gay way of expressing this but I can't bring myself to say it.

Gubbler of the Society of Reformed Chechenistics said...

"They prefer shiksa white girls perhaps above any other group - even than Jewish girls- but Jews in New York for some reason look very ethnic, dark, and non-European."

Lots of Jewish guys prefer ANY WOMEN over Jewish women for reasons of looks and temperament.

Gubbler of the Society of Reformed Chechenistics said...

"Also, it's easy to overstate Jewish elite status in NYC."

Rotfl. Are we talking about the same NY?
Every freaking non-Jewish group knows Jews own and rule NY. I mean gimme a break. Yes, there are fat ugly Jewish accountants, and they aren't gonna get the best chicks, but elite classes in NY are filled with Jews, and many white girls go with rich and powerful Jews.

Anonymous said...

"It's not that Jewish guys like Asian women, it's that they have an easier time getting them than white girls. Trust me I know the Jewish attitude very, very well. I'm half-Jewish. They prefer shiksa white girls perhaps above any other group - even than Jewish girls- but Jews in New York for some reason look very ethnic, dark, and non-European."

For pure sexual pleasure, it's true that Jews prefer long legged blonde 'Aryan' types.
But when it comes to companionship, things get a bit more complicated. I've known plenty of Jewish guys who have a special thing for East Asian(though preferably Japanese and Korean over Chinese) and Asian Indian women. A good number of Jews I've known prefer Indian cuisine over all else, and they remark about how beautiful Indian women are. Maybe some Indian women here look okay, but India is really land of the ugly. For every looker, there are lots of uglies. China isn't much better.

Anonymous said...

"All the best neighborhoods and the coolest parts of town in Manhattan and Brooklyn are heavily populated by whites and perhaps secular assimilated Jews."

That 'perhaps' is one of the most cynically precious things I ever read. I mean... come on. Tell us what you're up to.

Gee, 'perhaps', there are lots of Jews working in the coolest parts of Hollywood. Gee, 'perhaps', there are some powerful Jews around Wall Street. Yeah, 'perhaps'.

'Perhaps', there are some powerful Jews around Obama.



Mike said...

I certainly don't think whites have any obligation to date outside their race. God no. Just pointing out hypocrisy. I also prefer white girls

Mathew as I said I'm half Jewish and I look quite Nordic. If you saw me you'd think I was German or Swedish. I do great with shiksas. Funny thing is Jewish girls don't dig me, and some of them I like a lot, the ones who look like Natalie Portman or Mila Kunis. It's a type I like but surprise surprise! They don't like guys who look like me so much.

At the end of the day everyone dates within their race despite much talk of their being massive interracial dating. It's all a massive myth! I used to believe white girls like the "dark Latino lover" - completely untrue its hilarious! That guy from entourage that supposedly got all the girls - complete myth!

It's interesting to discover to these things.

Perspective said...

Anonymous wrote:
``Chinese immigrants love the suburbs of Toronto, specifically Markham and Vaughan.``

True, the Chinese seem to settle in all types of urban environments in metro Toronto and metro Vancouver. In Vancouver, there are plenty of Chinese in the city proper and in the suburbs of Richmond and Burnaby. Indians, on the other hand, mostly almost always settle in suburban areas just outside the city or in exurbs. There are very few Indians in downtown Toronto, but many in the suburbs of Brampton and Scarborough. The only South Asian group that seems to live in the inner city are Bangladeshis. Caribbean immigrants favour the suburbs as well in Toronto. My area just east of Toronto has become fairly black by Canadian standards mainly because of 2nd generation Jamaican immigrants settling here.

Svigor said...

dominican
chinese
mexican
guyanese
jamaican

are the biggest groups? what the heck kind of place does that make? that is going to be one weird city in the future.

never before have there been such random, useless, and pointless conglomerations of completely different, and not complementary, people, as are developing in some US cities today.


He say you-you brade runna!

Anonymous said...

He say you-you brade runna!

Were there blacks and hispanics in Blade Runner besides Edward James Olmos? I just recall asians.

Anonymous said...

"Of course it was white people who originally took over New York from the Native Americans".

More cultural Marxism at work here.

The Spanish under Cortez took over Mexico from the Aztecs.

How does that create a "right" for Chinese to move to Mexico?

Pizarro took over Peru from the Incas.

How does that create a "right" for Chinese to move there?

Also New York was just forest and undeveloped land. Those Indians didn't build the city.

But they actually did have impressive settlements in Mexico and Peru. Again why doesn't that give the Chinese a "right" to move there?

Finally the term "Native American" is inaccurate. They did not grow out of the ground like trees. They arrived via Siberia across the Bering Strait.

Anonymous said...

>>> It's extremely rare to see any Asians in the hip clubs and bars of Willy.

The (first-generation) chinese aren't as dull-whitted as whites. They won't date down. They'll get their Jewish boyfriend at the accounting firm, not the hipsters-saving-stray-street-dogs meeting.




Go read the _the New Paper_ of Singapore. Singaporean chinese have a =very= conflicted, love-hate relationship with the flood of China immigrants.

Talk to a Singaporean taxi driver. He can probably point you to some China single mom who has a small sideline as amateur escort. Not even illegal in Singapore.

It is more likely for a Singaporean guy to go get to Saigon agency and choice a province Viet wife than a china girl.

Anonymous said...

>>> Funny how nobody was asked if they wanted to be flooded with Chinese, Dominicans, Guyanese, Jamaicans

Funny how nobody asked the Dutch New Amsterdam-ians if they wanted to be conquered by Anglos who admired the Duke of York.

my gumby is yours said...

'At the end of the day everyone dates within their race despite much talk of their being massive interracial dating. It's all a massive myth!'

Not when it comes to Anglo males and Mexican females AND white males and the story of the bravery of love.
That's for real.

An in some integrated area are is a blacks like a certain white chick, they will threaten any white boy who goes near her. And white trash girls are into twerking, porn culture, and beastliness. They go with whomever happens to be the alpha male. And there is no social inhibition against that thing anymore. If anything, in a nation where very white states elected Obama twice, that sort of thing is encouraged through movies, tv shows, especially pop music, and 'progressive' ideology.

Mike said...

"The (first-generation) chinese aren't as dull-whitted as whites. They won't date down. They'll get their Jewish boyfriend at the accounting firm, not the hipsters-saving-stray-street-dogs meeting.


Actually you see a ton of Asian girls in the mainstream clubs that get lots of blacks and ethnics. In fact it's more common to see Chinese girls with blacks (in NYC) and other ethnics than it is to see Asian girls with cool blond whites. And the reasons are obvious - for a black guy a pretty Chinese girl represents an upgrade, for a cool white guy an Asian girl is a definite downgrade.

In California I think it might be a bit different, but I wonder by how much. I am describing the racial politics of NYC which I know very well.

Eh. All this racial politics is interesting but ultimately pointless. I say we shouldn't discriminate against hot girls of any ethnicity!

Svigor said...

Were there blacks and hispanics in Blade Runner besides Edward James Olmos? I just recall asians.

Me too. But "that gibberish he talked was Cityspeak, gutter talk, a mishmash of Japanese, Spanish, German, what have you." No African, though.

Anonymous said...

Mike:

A lot of those Southern & Midwestern white girls are NOT willing to date/marry a non-Christian, and many of them may find the relentless Jewish drive to succeed somewhat off-putting. (Although if they are completely put off by urban hustling, I don't know why they went to New York.)

In contrast, Chinese girls are often fixated on financial success, feel pressured by their families to "marry rich" and have no religious preference in a spouse.

It is offensive to me that you label white girls as racists for not wanting to date Jews while you give fellow Jews a pass for not wanting to date Jews. Maybe Jews, especially NYC Jewish males, are too promiscuous, too dishonest, and too prone to perjure themselves when the marriage almost inevitably dies and the couple ends up in divorce court.

I'll bet you aren't asking black women out on dates.

Mike said...

Anonymous, you're not understanding me. I agree that whites have different priorities and temperaments from Jews. As someone who has lots of friends from both communities nothing could be more obvious to me. I don't think MidWestern white girls are racists for wanting to date guys who look, think, and act like them, and I don't think Jewish girls are racists for doing the same, and I don't think Chinese girls are racists for doing it also.

I find all of this entirely natural, healthy, and normal. Only in America is this a big deal. In the rest of the world all this is taken for granted. I am half Jewish but happen to be phenotypically very, very white. I go to bars and clubs a lot and cannot help but be very aware of what girls like me and which don't notice me at all. I realize it is both a limiting factor for me - as it is for everyone! - and an opportunity. And I have absolutely no problem with it.

I DO think that whites are a bit silly with the PC business when in NYC, which is the capital of liberal PC, whites are in the way they conduct their personal lives entirely un-PC.

I am not blaming or condemning whites - or any other group - for preferring mates who look and think and feel like them. I do the exact same thing myself and expect everyone else to. I think amicable relations between the races can exist on a basis of recognizing this fact. I have never resented a girl who looks like Mila Kunis not being into me.

I am merely pointing out that the much bruited white PC behavior is a myth.

Are we clear?

Peter the Shark said...

yet Jewish dominance in Germany was far greater than Jewish dominance in America

No it wasn't. You've swallowed the NSDAP propaganda. If Jews had been truly dominant in Germany it would not have been so easy to kick them out in the 1930s. Jews had no political power in the 2nd Reich and very little even in Weimar. Ethnic Germans dominated industry, government and the military in pre-Nazi Germany - German Jews were prominent in fields like academia, media and medicine precisely because those were second tier professions prior to the late 19th century. Jews in the US are much better connected politically and economically than German Jews ever were.

Mike said...

Peter the Shark,

What I meant was that Jewish over-representation in the elite professions was truly astonishing in Germany. In most elite occupations like lawyer, doctor, journalist, Jewish figures were often over 80%. That isn't the case in America. And it's interesting that because Germans are surely a more intelligent and capable bunch than white Americans.

And if America was all white and went all anti-Semitic it would be exceedingly easy to get rid of the Jews. All that political power would crumble. Why do you think Jews promote immigration and diversity so much? They know their position isn't secure in an all white America.

Anonymous said...

To anon at 4:33 Am:

"Funny how nobody was asked if they wanted to be flooded with Chinese, Dominicans, Guyanese, Jamaicans, etc"

"Funny how the Dutch New-Amsterdams weren't asked if they wanted to be conquered by the Anglos".

So can the Anglos at least resist the conquest by them of Jamaicans, Domicians, Chinese & Guyanese as the Dutch resisted that of their own by the (and ethnically similar for that matter) Anglos? Nobody expected the Dutch to roll over and let the English in.

Anonymous said...

Mike said...

"Why do you think Jews promote immigration and diversity so much?"

Absolutely. Jews are all for open doors and diversity - in any place they are not the majority population. In Israel, its JEWS ONLY, thank you very much.