February 3, 2014

Andrew Sullivan as role model: Gay boys 'roiding up

From WNEW:
Steroid Use Much Higher Among Gay and Bi Teen Boys

CHICAGO — Gay and bisexual teen boys use illicit steroids at a rate almost six times higher than do straight kids, a “dramatic disparity” that points up a need to reach out to this group, researchers say. 
Reasons for the differences are unclear. The study authors said it’s possible gay and bi boys feel more pressure to achieve a bulked-up “ideal” male physique, or that they think muscle-building steroids will help them fend off bullies. 
Overall, 21 percent of gay or bisexual boys said they had ever used steroids, versus 4 percent of straight boys. The difference was similar among those who reported moderate use — taking steroid pills or injections up to 40 times: 8 percent of gay or bi teens reported that amount, versus less than 2 percent of straight boys. The heaviest use — 40 or more times — was reported by 4 percent of gays or bi boys, compared with less than 1 percent of straight teens. 
The study is billed as the first to examine the problem; previous research has found similar disparities for other substance abuse. ...

The nationally representative study is an analysis of government surveys from 2005 and 2007. It involved 17,250 teen boys aged 16 on average; almost 4 percent — 635 boys — were gay or bisexual. Blashill said it’s likely more recent data would show the disparities persist. 
Dr. Rob Garofalo, adolescent medicine chief at Lurie Children’s Hospital in Chicago, said the differences aren’t surprising, since it is known that gay youth often have “body image issues.” But he said, “It is still shocking. These are dramatically high rates.” 

Here, from 2000, is Andrew Sullivan's loving depiction of the effect of prescription testosterone on himself.

By the way, there's a sense that in our culture gay men are less waspishly witty than they used to be and are now more earnest and dull. It's hard to measure, but I'd guess you'd find more people who would agree with that statement than with the opposite. Might this cultural trend (assuming it exists) have something to do with the dumbing down side effects of butching up to be more attractive to other gay men?
      

124 comments:

Anonymous said...

The entire weightlifting culture which has become popular recently among males generally is increasingly gay influenced and driven. As a result there's an increasing "straight flight" from weightlifting and I suspect there will be more straight flight away from it in the future. I know guys who quit lifting altogether because of how gay the gym scenes were getting and now they just fish, shoot, and hunt which are about as gay-free as it gets.

Similar deal with beards and facial hair and tattoos.

Pretty soon guys are going to have be skinny, clean cut and clean shaven to look straight.

"Beards and tattoos: Why are modern men trying to look like gay bears?"

http://phdavies.co.uk/2013/11/09/beards-and-tattoos-why-are-modern-men-trying-to-look-like-gay-bears/

"But really, what I find most interesting is how much straight men’s fashion has borrowed from gay subculture in the past ten-fifteen years. In the late 1990′s, the metrosexual imitated the well-groomed, clean shaven gay who looked after his skin and nails, the muscled-jock started working out more than the Muscle Mary, and now straight men are starting to look like gay bears. In the past, if a man had a beard and tattoo he was a bear. When I went to Sitges last year with husband, we inadvertently found ourselves in the resort during ‘Bear Week’. Throngs of men with beards, tattoos, big arms, and braces drinking huge tankards of beer were running amok on the beaches – come to think about it, it was just like being in Shoreditch on a Saturday night.

How did this happen? I guess gay men have the freedom to push the boundaries of style and adopt old forms of masculinity and turn them into fashion. Indeed, the gay bear look is partly based on the sailor, that symbol of gay male fantasy. Tattoos, biceps, unshaven faces after weeks at sea, a certain swarthiness – it’s an image that is instantly appealing to gay men. From films like Rainer Werner Fassbinder’s Querelle (1982), to the art of Pierre et Gilles, or the fashion of Jean Paul Gaultier, the sailor is an icon in gay culture. This iconic ideal has been transmuted through gay bear subculture and has seeped into the mainstream, redefining masculinity for the twenty-first century."

Anonymous said...

it doesn't seem very mysterious. if you're looking to get laid as a gay man there will be greater "comparative advantage" to building muscle mass than if you're looking to get laid as a straight guy.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mathew-rodriguez/is-discrimination-on-grindr-killing-gay-sex_b_4558989.html

MASC ONLY

Power Child said...

Your last question is a bit of a stretch. But I wonder if it's more of a stretch than this crackpot theory that I just made up:

Gay boys are overrepresented among male dancers. Female dancers experience a lot of pressure to maintain a certain physique; why shouldn't male dancers also?

"But there aren't nearly as many dancers as there are jocks in high school, and jocks are overwhelmingly straight."

Well maybe so, but compared with a typical high school athlete, a competent high-school-aged dancer has a pretty fair shot at continuing the discipline through college/conservatory and going on to be a professional. So, a young dancer has less of a reason to think that 'roiding up now isn't worth it.

Crackpot theory #2:

I notice that among many gay couples one guy is significantly more effeminate than the other guy, almost like he's playing the woman. I wonder if there are more effeminate gay guys than masculine ones, and if so, do the masculine ones tend to compete over the affections of the effeminate ones kinda like how straight men compete over women? If they do, then maybe that minority of masculine gay guys still get 'roided up consistently enough to bump the whole gay average up to six times the entire straight average? I mean, the competition must be pretty fierce. On the other hand, gay guys aren't really exclusive either, so that must act like a pressure valve on the whole thing.

More research needed I guess.

Dave Pinsen said...

"By the way, there's a sense that in our culture gay men are less waspishly witty than they used to be and are now more earnest and dull. It's hard to measure, but I'd guess you'd find more people who would agree with that statement than with the opposite. Might this cultural trend (assuming it exists) have something to do with the dumbing down side effects of butching up to be more attractive to other gay men?"

It probably has more to do with gay marriage and homosexuality becoming so widely accepted as a lifestyle. Witty gays transgressed against the buttoned down mainstream squares. But it's tougher to be witty when defending the mainstream status quo.

2Degrees said...

Gays are incredibly vain and body conscious. That is something they have in common with blacks. They are also far more turned on my large amounts of muscle than women are. The fans of body builders are gay. That is why they overuse steroids.

Transsexuals are a little different. They love to dress up in women's clothes, and when they can they go out of their way to be as grungy as possible.

Welcome to the world of my youth.

Anonymous said...

"Reasons for the differences are unclear."

This week's grand prize winner in not noticing stuff.

SFG said...

"It probably has more to do with gay marriage and homosexuality becoming so widely accepted as a lifestyle. Witty gays transgressed against the buttoned down mainstream squares. But it's tougher to be witty when defending the mainstream status quo."

I pretty much agree. I might say that as gay men become more 'normal', they assimilate to the dumb, muscly average American ideal. But that's my geek-partisan opinion, and is obviously biased.

Anonymous said...


Gay men compete with one another for men using their bodies the way women compete for males by doing the same.

Not much difference between the gay male and the female of the species anyway, not emotionally any way.

Anonymous said...

The math is rather simple. Straight men mostly take steroids only when they're trying to improve performance for sports. Gay men are taking them to be more attractive to other men, since men are more attracted to physical beauty than are women. I think the percentage of women attracted to muscle heads is actually quite small. Moreover, the risks accompanying steroid use - namely infertility - are the kind that will bother gay men less than straightmen, for rather obvious reasons. Any man with a testosterone level in the normal range knows you don't need steroids for weightlifting to work its magic. A few months of weightlifting with adequate nutrition and the results will be visible and, generally, more than enough to be attractive to most women. If women still don't find you attractive, it's not your build that's turning them off.

Novaseeker said...

It's more the simple reality that gay men are as visual in terms of attraction as straight men are, just targeting men and not women, so if they want to be in the erotic sights of other gay men, they up the physical profile. Yes, there are effeminate gays, too -- the gay crowd is split in that way (and in other ways), but there is a lot of pressure on the non-effeminate gay crowd to really up the physical aspects of masculine presentation, especially musculature.

Straight guys are under some pressure here, of course, as well, because the visual is also a part of women's assessment of men erotically, but it's not the exclusive lens. So straight men are bulking up, too, but also working on other things because women care about other things in terms of attraction. But of you're a gay guy trying to attract another one, it's more like a straight woman trying to attract a man -- huge emphasis on the visual presentation as a primary factor.

Anonymous said...

Why would any real man avoid an activity because gay men do it, too? If you like lifting weights then lift weights. If you like going to theatre then attend the theatre. Who gives a rat's ass that gay men are into it, too?

Mark Caplan said...

To quote a character in Whit Stillman's Damsels in Distress, homosexual culture used to be “something refined, hidden, sublimated, aspiring to the highest forms of expression and often achieving them” but now “just seems to be a lot of musclebound morons running around in T-shirts.”

Anonymous said...

From Sullivan's essay:
After he began testosterone injections:

"Depression, once a regular feature of my life, is now a distant memory."


A common finding in numerous studies on homosexual males in all the Western countries is a much higher incidence of mental illness, including depression.

It's likely that whatever brain anomaly that accounts for the homosexuality itself is related to the incidence of depression.

Anonymous said...

Disparate impact!

Anonymous said...

Not much difference between the gay male and the female of the species anyway

Boy, are you one confused puppy!

Anonymous said...

By the way, there's a sense that in our culture gay men are less waspishly witty than they used to be and are now more earnest and dull.

How about now, there are more open gays than before from a broader spectrum? Before, only the queer eccentric types were openly gay.

smead jolley said...

Might be on to something there. Just last week I got into a public argument with one of our sacred cows in SF and the best he could do was call me an ***hole and "homophobic." I asked him when his community was going to start paying us back for the tens of billions spent on AIDS research. At least he didn't try to tell me how "we're all at risk."

Anonymous said...

"Gay men compete with one another for men using their bodies the way women compete for males by doing the same."

"Not much difference between the gay male and the female of the species anyway, not emotionally any way."

Exactly so. Sullivan in his ad for bareback anal sex is gruesome in his details about his body and its capacity to give pleasure to the prospective guy mounting him. He goes on at length about his body's impressive features but focuses most intensely on the ability of his muscles back there to milk dry his partner who of course must be of impressive dimensions himself to fully appreciate all Andy has to offer.

A woman of course is doing the same sort of advertisement if she appears in revealing clothes, whether tight-fitting or otherwise, but she's still feels (for how much longer?) some restraint not to make it too explicit. A man speaking to another man presumably feels few restraints in his advertisements.

Anonymous said...

I just dont care about gay people. They dont enter my circle.

Anonymous said...

Another vote for "regression to the mean." As gays become more accepted, and more guys get the easy ability to notice that they like guys, gays will become more normal.

(I am in many ways a stereotypical male nerd, and simply would not have noticed that I'm more attracted to guys than girls without internet porn to make it obvious. I'd have just chalked it up as low sex drive and married one of the girls I was good friends with, and maybe figured it out in my forties.)

Anonymous said...

My son works out some with a friend of mine who is old school: cleans, squats, kettle, flipping tires. No machines, no isometrics. His disparaging take on high rep/get ripped weightlifting: "That's the gay Guido workout!"

Anonymous said...

They used the Youth Risk Behavior Surveys from 2005 and 2007. I don't have the 2007 results in front of me, but in the 2005 version, 4.8% of 9th grade girls reported using steroids, with between 2% and 3% for 10th-12th grade girls. (See Anabolic Steroid Abuse among Teenage Girls: An Illusory Problem?) That is not a thing that's happening. Either kids don't know what steroids are or they're lying. Probably the boys who lie about being bi or gay are also more likely to lie about taking steroids. I totally accept that there's a difference, but 21% is about as plausible as the idea that 5% of 14 and 15-year-old girls are using steroids. With girls on the nationally representative surveys there's a difference of almost two orders of magnitude in terms of reported steroid usage. These just aren't telling us a lot.

Anonymous said...

My son works out some with a friend of mine who is old school: cleans, squats, kettle, flipping tires. No machines, no isometrics. His disparaging take on high rep/get ripped weightlifting: "That's the gay Guido workout!"

You might want to keep an eye on some of those workout sessions, if you catch my drift. You never know bro.

Chicago said...

So where are they getting these steroids since they're only legal through prescription for a verified medical condition? Are there street corners where they're hawked along with crack and other such goodies? There must be a huge underground network for steroids to service all the professional and amateur athletes as well as the numerous gym rats out there. Yet steroids don't seem to figure in any of the news stories regarding large drug busts. The youth queried wouldn't lie to the researchers would they? The comments following the linked story are mostly very un-PC and are more fun to read than the story itself.

Anonymous said...

The weightlifting/bodybuilding scene has always had a huge gay element, from the original 1940s magazines to the fact that all the 1960s-70s Muscle Beach guys like Arnold Schwarzenegger made ends meet by selling nude photos of themselves to rich gay collectors.

Anonymous said...

Might this cultural trend (assuming it exists) have something to do with the dumbing down side effects of butching up to be more attractive to other gay men?

I would guess so. I recall a discussion in The Man Who Would Be Queen about the scarcity of "tops" in the gay community, so the sexual ROI of appearing to be more masculine would be direct. I also recall the disappointed realization that almost all gays turn out to be bottoms regardless of outward appearance.

Plus the sheer vanity aspect. The club-going gay man seems to be the most fatphobic of all human types.

Suburban_elk said...

Why would any real man avoid an activity because gay men do it, too?

Working out at the gym around a bunch of "gay guys", now there's a barrel of monkeys!

But a straight answer to the question, is that healthy people generally prefer to hang around healthy people.

Dave Pinsen said...

It's also worth noting that there's a difference taking testosterone prescribed to get you up to normal levels and doing what illicit users sometimes do which is take enough to get them well beyond normal levels.

Anonymous said...

Exactly so. Sullivan in his ad for bareback anal sex is gruesome in his details about his body and its capacity to give pleasure to the prospective guy mounting him.

Right. His handle in those ads was "RAWMUSLGLUTES" and he specifically mentioned in the ads that he squatted some X number of "plates" i.e. 45 lb. plates.

Dave Pinsen said...

Certainly a higher percentage of gays lift weights and are concerned with their appearance, but plenty more straight guys lift. Also not everyone who lifts is obsessed with appearance. Power lifters lift primarily for strength, Olympic lifters lift primarily for power, etc.

a woman said...

"Yes, there are effeminate gays, too -- the gay crowd is split in that way (and in other ways)..."

You say that as if most gay males aren't effeminate, but they are, no matter their musculature. No, they don't wear boas and flap their wrists all over the place, but there are still other signs.

I have a few gay male friends who seem to think they are masculine. I haven't the heart to tell them otherwise.

Anonymous said...

Straight dudes only need to be more masculine than the girl; gays, on the other hand, need to be more masculine than guys, which is a lot harder, hence the roids.

Anonymous said...

I said,
"Not much difference between the gay male and the female of the species anyway"
____________________

Another anonymous responded:

"Boy, are you one confused puppy!"
________________

You omitted part of my statement: "Not much difference between the gay male and the female of the species anyway, not emotionally any way.

It's true. Gay men and we straight women are much alike in how we respond to things emotionally.

That's not a big secret, is it?

josh said...

Why did it take me so long to realize that being a prideful homosexual is associated with being a pretty screwed up person?

josh said...

Flipping tires? Is your son going to fight Ivan Drago?

Anonymous said...

I presume gays lift primarily for aesthetic reasons, but a proximate side-effect is they're better suited to defend themselves within their notoriously violent trysts and relationships. The so-called bullying is a half-truth as the perps certainly won't be homophobes for the most part.

MLC said...

Bodybuilding was ALWAYS gay and it is no surprise, as gay culture is vain, insipid, youth-obsessed -- although in the days when it was a sotto voice insinuation, the right intonations and double entendres hid the truth under a patina of worldly sophistication ("Ah, a fellow lover of art!").

Re steroid use and gay youth --

I was a weedy 150, 155 pound college freshman who lifted on and off throughout high school. I walked on (and then off) my school's baseball team after seeing a picture of Bob Paris. Now that was what I wanted to look like -- screw athletics, I'd rather pursue aesthetics.

I hit 175 pounds as a junior, then started on vitamin T (ubiquitous in collegiate athletics), and put on another 20 pounds.

The difference between even just 250-300 mg of test/week and lifting clean is night and day. As for legality, I have a prescription for 250 mg test / week from a Biogenesis-type anti-aging clinic. Such 'medical spas' are EVERYWHERE...boomers need to re-capture their youthful vitality. Even without shady Caribbean-educated MDs or foreign graduates from the Tajikstan Academy of Petroleum Engineering and Medical Sciences doling out testosterone, deca, and HGH, anabolics are very easy to come by.

Anonymous said...

Freddie deboer wrote about this:

http://lhote.blogspot.com/2013/06/the-bert-and-ernie-are-gay-thing-says.html

Anonymous said...

It's true. Gay men and we straight women are much alike in how we respond to things emotionally.

I've never seen too many straight women who want to pound away at someone's anus.

Laguna Beach Fogey said...

Nah, don't be ridiculous.

These are just the same lame excuses used by straight guys to avoid working out, lifting weights, and dressing well (and tucking in their shirts) because it might make them look gay.

LOL!

The pencil-necked geeks among you are just jealous of those of us with muscles, beards, and height. And who dress well.

I just dont care about gay people. They dont enter my circle

I'm sure they don't. But don't you mean ,ring?

lolz

Anonymous said...

Like, I suppose, most straight men, I am moderately "homophobic" towards gay men. In fact, though, effeminate homosexuals don't bother me at all, but I am quite creeped by the pseudo-hypermasculine ones. It's almost like the "uncanny valley" in VR, the feeling of "this person is almost normal, bu there's something wrong.

Dave Pinsen said...

I wouldn't be surprised if lifting also was in part a response to the wasting effects of AIDs - a way for those without the full blown disease to feel and look stronger.

Anonymous said...

The pencil-necked geeks among you are just jealous of those of us with muscles, beards, and height. And who dress well.

Why would they be jealous of homos or people who look just like homos?

Anonymous said...

The pencil-necked geeks among you are just jealous of those of us with muscles, beards, and height. And who dress well.

Your entire blog is about clothes and playing dress up. You should change your handle to "Laguna Beach Faggy".

asdf said...

Reasons for the differences are unclear. The study authors said it’s possible gay and bi boys feel more pressure to achieve a bulked-up “ideal” male physique, or that they think muscle-building steroids will help them fend off bullies.

We can't tell if it's because of hateful heteronormative standards or hateful heteronormative bullies. But it's definitely heterosexuality's fault. 500 million years of oppression!

Oswald Spengler said...

"Regression to the queen."

Anonymous said...

Anonymous said...
It's true. Gay men and we straight women are much alike in how we respond to things emotionally.

I've never seen too many straight women who want to pound away at someone's anus.
_________________________________

Let me guess. You're a hard-headed stubborn man who can't abide losing an argument to a woman.

The key word is "emotionally," not "sexually," honey.

Mike said...

I'm getting gay dating ads on your blog tonight.

Just sayin'

heartiste said...

If we assume to a simplifying degree that gay men are psychosexually like straight men, except the objects of their desire are other men instead of women, then it makes sense that gays would focus on their looks and muscularity. Male sexual desire is visually oriented, so men who are attracted to men would do their best to look desirable.

Straight men don't have this concern, not as much at any rate, because women evaluate mate worthiness based on a larger panoply of factors than male looks.

DR said...

"Either kids don't know what steroids are or they're lying."

Many people erroneously classify many supplements as steroids. Ask the general population and a lot will tell you that creatine, BCAAs, diet pills or even protein powder are "steroids".

As for why gay teenagers take steroids, I'm almost positive it's because many of them have older friends and boyfriends who can procure them grownup things. Not many straight teenage boys are hanging out with 25+ year old women. I'm sure gay teenagers also have higher drinking and drug use.

I would bet though by age 21 when straight boys are old enough and out of the house the steroids gap closes.

Lugash said...

So where are they getting these steroids since they're only legal through prescription for a verified medical condition? Are there street corners where they're hawked along with crack and other such goodies? There must be a huge underground network for steroids to service all the professional and amateur athletes as well as the numerous gym rats out there. Yet steroids don't seem to figure in any of the news stories regarding large drug busts. The youth queried wouldn't lie to the researchers would they? The comments following the linked story are mostly very un-PC and are more fun to read than the story itself.

Steroids are a low priority for cops... and more than a few cops(and firefights) use them.

Mexico is a huge source. My high school baseball team made regular trips to Mexico to load up on them in the early 1990s. Interestingly, very few or none of the football players used the,.

I wouldn't be surprised if lifting also was in part a response to the wasting effects of AIDs - a way for those without the full blown disease to feel and look stronger.

IIRC California passed legislation in the early 90s subsidizing steroids for AIDS patients before the really effective drugs came out. Prescriptions were overfilled, which spilled over into the body building community.

Anonymous said...

"But a straight answer to the question, is that healthy people generally prefer to hang around healthy people."

Lifting weights and attending the theater are unhealthy activities. Got it.

Laguna Beach Fogey said...

Your entire blog is about clothes and playing dress up. You should change your handle to "Laguna Beach Faggy"

Yeah, I get that a lot. :::yawn:::

I get that mostly from genuine pencil-necked geeks [am I the only who remembers that song? Paging Dr Demento...] and who wouldn't recognise a dumbell if it hit them upside the head and tucked in their shirt.

Anon @ 7:54 ~ You betas continue to be jealous of men who grow muscle, grow beards, and grow confidence. It's in your genes. That's why you males are betas.

Or, do you and your smooth-faced bros have a sexual or racial jealousy of White men who grow beards?

http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2014/01/the-racially-fraught-history-of-the-american-beard/283180/

Interesting.

Laguna Beach Fogey said...

Why would they be jealous of homos or people who look just like homos?

They're jealous of men who look like, you know, real men. Not like pencil-necked geeks.

It's simple, really.

Now go back to your D&D games.

CJ said...

Many people erroneously classify many supplements as steroids. Ask the general population and a lot will tell you that creatine, BCAAs, diet pills or even protein powder are "steroids".

Yes. Don't know how much it would skew the survey, but very true. I work out moderately once or twice a week and often mix up some milk and whey protein for breakfast or a recovery drink. When some work colleagues asked what I was drinking I told them. Some time later I was asked if it was true I was on steroids. You really have to be careful about underestimating ignorance and stupidity.

Laguna Beach Fogey said...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JNM4atakanI

Anonymous said...

They're jealous of men who look like, you know, real men. Not like pencil-necked geeks.

It's simple, really.

Now go back to your D&D games.


LOL! This coming from the clothes obsessed fairy who LARPs Brideshead Revisited on the internet.

Laguna Beach Fogey said...

Anon @10:06 ~ You know, I've heard that for years. :::yawn:::

Bor-ring.

lolz

What else do you have? That's it? Got it. Anyway...

You nerds should put down the dice--carefully, mind you (we don't want to wake up the Dungeon Master!)--and get a real life.

Your could try eating right (Paleo is a good place to start), lifting weights, and trying to grow some whiskers on your adolescent chins.

Laguna Beach Fogey said...

Anon @10:06 ~ One more thing...

You know, it's funny, I had to look up what "LARP" means.

There's just no way I would have known such a nerd-term.

lolzzlolzlulzomglolz

Bone Daddy Dawg said...

Steve--the title of this post is silly; Andrew Sullivan is on TRT because HIV has caused him to become hypogonadal (not a rare thing); typical TRT dosages (@100mgs/week depending on metabolism) would bring him into the normal adult male range, no more, no less. Bodybuilders take grams of testosterone and other anabolics per week. THAT is "roiding up".

Re: Where Americans get most anabolic steroids: Overseas, and from Underground Labs (UGs)--and the too can overlap. See http://youtu.be/0LL7bL4F9G4

Bone Daddy Dawg said...

"I wouldn't be surprised if lifting also was in part a response to the wasting effects of AIDs - a way for those without the full blown disease to feel and look stronger."

And since there is a very strong link between LBM and survival rates for those with HIV, it makes perfect sense. See, for example http://www.amazon.com/Built-Survive-Comprehensive-Anabolic-Nutrition/dp/0966223101

Anonymous said...

Your could try eating right (Paleo is a good place to start), lifting weights, and trying to grow some whiskers on your adolescent chins.

You could try not looking gay.

Anonymous said...

my takeaway is that andrew sullivan is more disingenuous than clueless.

then again, it's OK to notice people are doing a thing but it's impolite to notice or suggest that they're doing that thing in order to have sex with sexier sex partners. since gays beef up mainly to become more popular on Grinder, the moment Sullivan chose to notice an uptick in gay teen beefiness is the same moment he commited himself to concocting an implausible (cockamamie?) theory to explain it.

its worth noticing that there still aren't *that* many gay users in the sample, and that if all you know about a kid is that he uses steroids he's still a big favorite to be straight.

To Bone: the main article is about steroid use among teenagers, not Andrew Sullivans.

Clyde said...

RIP Brandt.

Anonymous said...

Flipping tires? Is your son going to fight Ivan Drago?

No, I just figure at 19, you ought to be able to perform a task on that level. Since he's not doing farmwork or other heavy labor, that's a decent urban equivalent. The point I was trying to make was about focusing on strength, rather than bodybuilding. They aren't the same.

Anonymous said...

But don't steroids make your genitals shrink and your hair fall out? Two things I would think would be aesthetically unpleasing to gay men.

Anonymous said...

Predators need to bulk up, too.

PatrickH said...

Andrew Sullivan takes testosterone replacement therapy, not steroids. I mean, at one point, Steve was insulting him by calling him AndrewGel, which is childish and ignorant. In general, Steve's writing on PEDs is among his poorest, least researched.

Anyway...Sullivan was hypogonadal and his doctor put him on a protocol that consisted of injections every other week (at the time of the article Steve linked). That indicates to me that he was probably doing at least 200mg per shot, perhaps of cypionate, perhaps of a longer-lasting ester. In any case, Sullivan's article on testosterone was interesting for many reasons, over and above his sexual habits, especially as indicating a reason for his near bipolar mood swings in his writing from that time on.

As for Long Beach Fogey's animadversions...he's right, you know. Middle-aged American men could use a testosterone supplementation protocol in general. Today's pathetic schlubs need all the help they can get. Not tucking their shirts in to prove they're not gay men may show they're not gay, but it doesn't show they're men. They're not. They're fat weeping cowards, manatees without the sweet nature.

Juice up, dugongs. You have nothing to lose but your moobs!

Dr. Krankenschmaltz said...

Juice up, dugongs. You have nothing to lose but your moobs!

I hope you know some good recipes for Flomax cocktails. Soon you'll need a sidecar for your prostate.

Anonymous said...

Listen to "A.I.D.S." by M.O.D.

That's really all you need to know.

jgress said...

Sounds to me like we're just reverting to the situation in the 1960s/70s, when gym culture and bodybuilding we're dominated by gays.

Rohan Swee said...

PatrickH: ...hypogonadal... 200mg per shot, perhaps of cypionate... longer-lasting ester... animadversions... supplementation protocol...dugongs.

Dude, you talk like a fag.

As for Long Beach Fogey's animadversions...he's right, you know.

Yeah, but his participating in an extended catty exchange because somebody called him faggy is also pretty gay.

...manatees without the sweet nature.

Lol. Would it be gay of me to plagiarize that?

CK said...

21% of less than 3% = 0.6%
vs
4% of 97%. = 3.9%
A sixfold difference in actual usage.

Anonymous said...

PatrickH: Juice up, dugongs. You have nothing to lose but your moobs!

Dr. Krankenschmaltz: I hope you know some good recipes for Flomax cocktails. Soon you'll need a sidecar for your prostate.


LOL! Hey PatrickH, dissolve your Flomax in a tincture of pygeum anficanum, mix a bourbon Manhattan with the tincture instead of bitters, then decorate with a saw palmetto leaf. Otherwise your prostate will have its own Social Security number.

Anonymous said...

Perhaps Gay men use all drugs more than others. And have sex more, which is the point of the lifestyle.

In general people who 'party' or go 'clubbing' use more drugs than those that don't.

My guess is they get steroids from the same connections they get all the other stuff from.

Scientist Peter Duesberg observed that the thing the two groups of AIDS victims, IV drug users and male Gays, had in common was excessive drug use. Duesberg was attacked from all sides for this opinion.

Anonymous said...

http://mondoweiss.net/2014/02/sodastream-commercial-want.html

Palestinian workers treated like American workers by the globalist elites. Let them eat beans.

Palestinians are now a defeated, occupied, and exploited people in the land of their forefathers.

White Americans, meet the same fate.

You laughed at Palestinians and enabled Zionists to do this to a people who had never hurt Americans.

So, may the Palestinians laugh with amusement as Jewish globalists do the same to the white race in America and Europe.

Anonymous said...

dotters and spotters

http://www.cnn.com/2014/02/02/world/asia/indian-burned-alive-dowry/index.html

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/370078/microaggression-alec-torres

Anonymous said...

chinee no likey chinee

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2014/02/03/why_its_dangerous_to_say_we_are_all_chinese_ella_koon_hong_kong

BurplesonAFB said...

I think the former wittiness was mostly a selection bias of the kind of guy who would come out as gay in those days. It was largely the intelligentsia, writers, artists and other assorted bohemians. Certainly a wittier cohort on average.

The gay dumbing down (assuming it exists) is a necessary byproduct of open gayness going more mass market, expect it to continue.

Power Child said...

This was weirdly on point: http://threewordphrase.com/muscles.htm

fondatori said...

This is kind of a 'dog bites man story.' The real story would be if there were some sort of metric on which gays were less self-destructive on average than straights.

as said...

Have you seen a recent picture of Andrew Sullivan. He's fat.

Like most practicing homos, he looks gross.

He's also bald but has a full beard.


Art Deco said...

am I the only who remembers that song?

No. But "Dead Dog Rover" was funnier.

Marc B said...

"gay men are less waspishly witty than they used to be and are now more earnest and dull".

That's something I've also noticed since the ACT-UP 1990's. It was the norm prior to that era to meet witty, urbane and elitist gays who charmed everybody with dirty jokes, clever crassness and a very non-PC view of class and race.

Dan said...

Deport Sullivan!

Anonymous said...

Laguna Beach Fogey said ""I just dont care about gay people. They dont enter my circle""

"I'm sure they don't. But don't you mean ,ring? lolz"

Sophomoric. Change your handle to Laguna Beach 12-year old.

pat said...

I'm looking for a project for this year. Two years ago I did my Mozart project. I spent a year hand coding Don Giovanni into .MusicXML form. Last year I taught myself some photography and made political movies for YouTube. The Mozart project was a success. The movie project laid an egg.

Maybe this year I'll eliminate homosexuality.

I would give me something to do.

Albertosaurus

Hunsdon said...

This is the bitchiest comment thread I have ever read here at iSteve.

Lugash said: Steroids are a low priority for cops... and more than a few cops(and firefights) use them.

Hunsdon said: For a while in the 1990s, there was a distinct look to cops in Houston: the leaning forward stance, the Stone Cold Steve Austin look with shaved head. We all thought it was a roid phase. While (as we all know!) correlation does not imply causation, there seemed to be a huge spike in hickory shampoo incidents.

I need to get back to the whole Paleo thing, myself.

peterike said...

OT but iSteve-ish. Are we getting any commentary on Microsoft, that quintessential American success story, now being run by an Indian? I guess the long running infestation of Microsoft by Indians in now complete.

Made in America!!

Anonymous said...

Speaking of prescription steroid, there was a short Jewish kid in grammar school who had growing problems. His condition wasn't as serious as Gary Coleman, but he told us that he was given steroid treatment. The word got around school that the little Jewish kid got the biggest dick because of the steroids. So I heard.

Anonymous said...

CK said...
21% of less than 3% = 0.6%
vs
4% of 97%. = 3.9%
A sixfold difference in actual usage.


CK has made a great overlooked point.

The USA is a country with 313 million people. About 50% are men, which is 156 million.

0.6% is 936,000 (almost 1 million) gay/bi steroid users whereas 4% is 6 million and 240 thousand straight men. That means for every 1 gay/bi using steroids, there's probably 7 times more straight guys.

The problem is the REASON: straights are using steroids to cheat on sports competition, improve health and to have an advantage whereas gays/bi want to "look good".

Weightlifting and gym culture ain't becoming LGBTQPII or infested with them.

On absolute numbers, there's more straights using steroids, but it's more about beating the competition in sports rather than "looking sexy". In fact gays bulking bulk to "attract" are quite mentally female on this aspect.

It's just that Andrew Sullivan is old, bald, fat, HIV positive and longs for the days when gyms were infested with LGBTPIQQ.

Anyhow, I don't think that steroids is a good thing anyhow. Steroids is bad for health and nobody should be using them, it's a form of self-destructive behavior. It's like a drug.

Art Deco said...

It was the norm prior to that era to meet witty, urbane and elitist gays who charmed everybody with dirty jokes, clever crassness and a very non-PC view of class and race.

I think you've confounded rank-and-file homosexuals with Paul Lynde.

Anonymous said...

"But don't steroids make your genitals shrink and your hair fall out? Two things I would think would be aesthetically unpleasing to gay men."

Homos don't think of homorrow.

DPG said...


Steve Sailer: Some people don't criticize billionaires out of fear of anti-Semitism.

Critics of Steve: Only a crazy, conspiracy theorist Jew-hater racist sexist like you would say that.

WSJ: animosity towards top 1% is driven by anti-Semitism.

http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702303942404579360632011640384

jgress said...

It's a Steve Sailer theme that public gay discourse has been lesbianized over the past 20 years, i.e. where public male gay figures were formerly urbane, elitist and apolitial, they're now turgid, militant and self-righteously PC.

Anonymous said...

"calling him AndrewGel, which is childish and ignorant"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qfvu3I0Wc4

Anonymous said...

Have you seen a recent picture of Andrew Sullivan. He's fat.

Like most practicing homos, he looks gross.

He's also bald but has a full beard.

_____________


Agreed. He's really unattractive now. And the beard is quite dark as if he's dying it. Weird. I wouldn't think most gay males interested in an attractive sex partner would think him attractive at all.

Anonymous said...

"Maybe this year I'll eliminate homosexuality.

"I would give me something to do."

Albertosaurus

______________

Please, Pat, do it, if you can. The t. gondii thing never went anywhere?

Antioco Dascalon said...

Steve,
What do you think research would show as to the differing rates lesbians use make-up or have breast augmentation surgery?
I think the answer is pretty straight-forward. If you want to be sexually appealing to a man, you have to look as good as possible. But if you want to appeal to women, you should learn how to play guitar or make lots of money or get a puppy. Women have many reasons to be attracted to someone. Men are much more visually focused.

Anonymous said...

"The study authors said it’s possible gay and bi boys feel more pressure to achieve a bulked-up “ideal” male physique, or that they think muscle-building steroids will help them fend off bullies."


Gee, did it occur to these crack researchers to ask them why they were using steroids? I mean they asked the guys if they were using, certainly that is much bolder than asking why. Duh.

Anonymous said...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5q7gXITSSCU

Sheeeeeeeeet. GOP has its own Obama.
ROTFL.

Anonymous said...

Want to read something that will curl your toes about the homosexual community and drug use? Strap yourself in and read this:

Vice Magazine reports on Meth Fuelled Gay Sex Parties

DR said...

"But don't steroids make your genitals shrink and your hair fall out? Two things I would think would be aesthetically unpleasing to gay men."

The general perception of the side effects of steroids is way overblown. A properly planned cycle with adequate PCT will have minimal side effects post-cycle.

Almost all the steroids horror stories come from idiots who just were loading up without any particular plan, or disregarding basic safety tips.

Anonymous said...

As GLP Points out, maybe it was jokesters claiming that they were steroid using fudge packers just for fun.

Dave Pinsen said...

OT Steve, but I linked to one of your posts in this comment on venture capitalist Fred Wilson's blog today, where there is another bout of agonizing about how not enough girls are interested in programming.

PatrickH said...

Thanks for the prostate concern, but my prostate's fine. "Hypogonadal" is gay? Rohan Swee, that is a stupid name made stupider by the sheer stupidity of your comment.

I still think Steve's writing on testosterone and steroids in sports is his poorest.

Anonymous said...

This is narcissism. It is rampant in the weightlifting community and with homosexuals. They would rather F themselves than anybody else but they can't.

Dave Pinsen said...

Also worth noting that lifting itself, particularly full body, compound barbell lifts like squats, deadlifts, etc., causes its own hormonal effects, including the stimulation of testosterone production.

Dave Pinsen said...

"This is narcissism. It is rampant in the weightlifting community and with homosexuals."

There are plenty of good reasons to lift weights that have nothing to do with narcissism. Here's a good summary: Strength vs. Endurance: Why You Are Wasting Your Time in the Gym.

Anonymous said...

Speaking of fruitkins, any of you see COG?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lG-B6FkcY14

The first 20 min were so annoying--SWPL BS--I was gonna turn it off, but the story began to gel with the homo redneck. Later, there's a born again Christian crank. Both characters are remarkably drawn, far beyond PC formulations or cultural stereotyping.

Alexander Payne usually begins by showing type A, only to reveal him as type B, or vice versa... and then giving everyone a nice hug and goofy smile.

But it's not so neat in COG. There's messed up people, humanity in their failings, and then inhumanity in that humanity and then inhumanity in that humanity and etc until we are not sure what to think about the characters at the film's end(by which point it might as well be art). No pat conclusions or cutesy summarize-ation.

But the redneck homo... one of the least PC characters ever drawn.

Anonymous said...

There are plenty of good reasons to lift weights that have nothing to do with narcissism. Here's a good summary: Strength vs. Endurance: Why You Are Wasting Your Time in the Gym.

Rippetoe himself looks like a bear who hangs out at rest stop bathrooms.

Anonymous said...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-uBgiya6cE

SWPL review

Anonymous said...

I've been going more warrior than paleo/caveman diet, and I've also been sunning my balls regularly. That later thanks to a poster at heartsies' place.

DR said...

"There are plenty of good reasons to lift weights that have nothing to do with narcissism"

Most people been so brainwashed by conventional notions of the marathon runner as the paragon of health. They think the only point of strong and developed muscles is to be a model or a thug.

For those who think this go to a nursing home and take a look at the residents. Many can barely standup or walk. That's primarily because their muscles have wasted away (and there bones and joints are stressed from making up for the lack of muscle). When I'm 80 I'd prefer not to stuck in bed for months with broken hips.

Habbakuk said...

It seems unlikely that steroid use is the cause of the trend that Steve perceives, since even among gay men few are using steroids on a regular basis.

Maybe it's the case that if you belong to a stigmatized group, humour is a way to defend yourself. In Notes on Camp, Sontag says "Camp is a solvent of morality. It neutralizes moral indignation, sponsors playfulness." Could that be rephrased with "wit" instead of "camp"?

Although there's a perception that gay men are witty, gay men don't seem to be overrepresented among male comedians. On the other hand, lesbians do seem to be overrepresented among female comedians. Lily Tomlin, Ellen Degeneres, Rosie O'Donnell, Wanda Sykes, and Jane Lynch are prominent in the field. I personally quite like Fran Lebowitz, an author and raconteur who was the subject of a documentary by Martin Scorsese. As far as It'd be tough to research the subject in a rigorous way, but it's interesting to speculate.

Rohan Swee said...

PatrickH: "Hypogonadal" is gay?

Yes, of course, Patrick. Obviously I think displaying a vocabulary indicative of literacy and grasp of technical terminology is, like, totally gay.

Jeez, is there something in the water today that is making people so hypersensitive and humorless?

Rohan Swee, that is a stupid name made stupider by the sheer stupidity of your comment.

Nonetheless, I still thought that "manatee" turn of phrase was excellent.

Anonymous said...

Butches vs. Fems. Fems vs. Butches. There. That's all you need to know about gay history.

Anonymous said...

Putin!!!!!

Anonymous said...

Am I the only person in the entire Dark Enlightenment who is aware that T shrinks the testes and sends the sperm count plummeting down towards zero?

I know that we aren't going to get very many children from dudes shooting their loads in Andrew Sullivan's posterior, but if all those dudes do start shooting up on the T, then even the closeted double-life on-the-down-low bisexual married ones won't be having any children.

And I don't know the extent to which the shriveling of the testes and the collapse in the sperm count can be remedied [if and or when a former T-user does decide that he wants children].

PS: If you want to see what the Gay Plague does to men's fashion [the choir boy look vis-à-vis the Grizzly Adams look], then check out what happened to the Duck Dynasty family album:

BEFORE THE GAY PLAGUE

AFTER THE GAY PLAGUE

PPS: And I agree that Anonymous needs to keep a close eye on that old friend of his who is so interested in lifting weights with his son.

Me be getting some bad, bad mojo from that vibe.

Anonymous said...

Lily Tomlin

Well I'll be G*d d*mn*ed.

I always thought that LT was kinda cute.

Huh.

Go figure.

Quantrill said...

I've also been sunning my balls regularly. That later thanks to a poster at heartsies' place.

So the gays have taken over there too?

Anno Frank said...

I'm constantly looking at Gay Porn. Why wouldn't I idealize that which turns me on? I don't think it's more complex than body dis-morphia brought on by an increasingly astute application of weight training methodologies and a Darwinian economic drive to provide the most sought after porn... If I'm not turned on by my body, why would anyone else be?... pathetic, but honest.

Anonymous said...

"If I'm not turned on by my body, why would anyone else be?... pathetic, but honest"

So, ARE gay men turned on by their own bodies?

SoCal Patriot said...

Somewhat OT:


Mr.Sailer, how many "men" (and women) do you believe have been fitted with colostomy bags as a result of the internal damage caused by people having anal "sex"?.