March 22, 2014

Down the memory hole

From Google News:

Now you know and I know and Wikipedia knows that Russia invaded Georgia in 2008 in roughly the sense that Israel invaded Egypt in 1973 (i.e., in a counter-offensive), but does anybody else know that?

   

40 comments:

RWF said...

Isn't that mostly because Georgia is not invading anyone else right now?

I've just been reading a book about Putin's Russia (Fragile Empire by Ben Judah) and I came across this passage:

"Able to import near-slave labour at minimal costs, employers had no need to modernize or protect workers' rights. This was not appreciated at the time, but due to the weakness of the rule of law, migrants may have been contributing to growth but they were stalling Russia's modernization — and further devaluing what it meant to be a 'Russian citizen'. "

With the 2nd highest number of annual immigrants in the world Putin seems to be enacting his own "Invade the world, invite the world" strategy. Putin- Russian neo-con?

Steve Sailer said...

Right -- Putin is running a giant multicultural empire.

peter the Shark said...

@RWF - exactly. This is why Putin is not the savior of the white race that so many Paleos seem to want to believe in.

Bert said...

Putin is doing the best he can. He's balancing the need to keep ethnic Russians happy and firmly in control with a desire to not have nationalists start slaughtering everyone else.

All things considered, he's done a fine job.

Pat Buchanan said...

I don't think that anyone is actually claiming he is.

It's more to do with humiliating Obama and his backers.

Hunsdon said...

We have always been at war with Eurasia.

Hunsdon said...

peter the Shark said: This is why Putin is not the savior of the white race that so many Paleos seem to want to believe in.

Hunsdon said: Are you equating Paleo-cons with White Nationalists, peter?

For that matter, what is the definition of a White Nationalist? Am I, someone who was pretty happy with the ethnic makeup of the United States in 1970, a WN? America was, roughly speaking, 85 percent white, 12 percent black, and three percent "other" (with some of the white population of Hispanic descent---but of long-term residence in the US).

That was pretty vibrant, or vibrant enough for me. Actually, it sounds a little like our host's "giant multi-ethnic empire" line.

Hunsdon said...

A search for "Georgia invaded Russia" 2008 returned zero results for me.

Baloo said...

Keep at it, Steve. You're the only credible source pointing this out. I made you a graphic, with links:
Who Invaded Georgia?

Steve Sailer said...

The difference between saying "Egypt started the 1973 war with Israel" and saying "Georgia started the 2008 war with Russia" is that when Egypt invaded the Sinai, the indigenous people of the Sinai (such as they are -- there aren't many) were on the side of Egypt. In contrast, when Georgia invaded South Ossetia, the indigenes largely were against Georgia.

Now you can argue that Russia bribed and manipulated the South Ossetians into rebelling to stay in union with the North Ossetians in Russia, but you'd still have to admit it's not like the Sinai, which Israel conquered in 1967 with no assistance from Sinai dwellers at all.

Anonymous said...

Many if not most of Russia's immigrants are Russins from the ex-Soviet Republics or Soviet minorities who identify more as Russian than as the constituent ethnicty of the new Republic.

In general, the population flow has been of Slavic minorities back to their homelands, Jews out to Israel, US, and Germany, along with a very minor amount of other minorities into Russia. In Ukraine, the influx of Ukrainians has balanced the outmigration of Russians and Jews, and the population decrease is due to the natural decrease of the domestic population.

Its really a totally different immigration paradigm than the US sees.

Anonymous said...

"A search for "Georgia invaded Russia" 2008 returned zero results for me."

Is this serious? How embarrassing fr the person who posted this? There is nothing funnier than watching Steve's dim acolytes try to emulate Steve but in their complete ignorance failing utterly. No one would ever claim that Georiga invaded Russia because that would be absurd. It's like how someone dim enough to use the google gaydar on Antonio Cromartie would get no results either. Maybe you can try Googling Druids in Saudi Arabia next. I'm just kidding obviously you are going to google lonely over 50 next.

When I googled Hundson + a woman's touch google just laughed at me.

Anonymous said...

"Putin is doing the best he can. He's balancing the need to keep ethnic Russians happy and firmly in control with a desire to not have nationalists start slaughtering everyone else.

All things considered, he's done a fine job."

This is what GW Bush and every Republican presidential candidate with the exception of John McCain is trying to do to. Why does everyone give Putin such a pass, but never stop to consider just how difficult our political environment is to navigate for a right of center party. Honestly, considering the playing field with which they have to vie I consider the Republican party a far better force for conservatism and western culture than Putin.

Matt Buckalew said...

The difference between saying "Egypt started the 1973 war with Israel" and saying "Georgia started the 2008 war with Russia" is that when Egypt invaded the Sinai, the indigenous people of the Sinai (such as they are -- there aren't many) were on the side of Egypt. In contrast, when Georgia invaded South Ossetia, the indigenous largely were against Georgia.

Right now apply this logic to California. Oh right you can't because you aren't indigenous, but you think your wishes should be adhered to over those of the far more indigenous Hispanic residents there. If indigenousness mattered then Putin would be giving the Crimea back to the Tartars.

I'm interested what Steve's logic is going to be when the Russian tanks knife into Estonia to protect the Russian colonists rights against the indigenous Estonians. I'm betting indigenousness won't matter so much anymore.

Anonymous said...

RWF in quoting Ben Judah wrote,""Able to import near-slave labour at minimal costs, employers had no need to modernize or protect workers' rights. This was not appreciated at the time, but due to the weakness of the rule of law, migrants may have been contributing to growth but they were stalling Russia's modernization — and further devaluing what it meant to be a 'Russian citizen'. ""

In a nutshell the same passage could have been written about the USA, especially the part of devaluing what it means to be a citizen. It never ceases to amaze me that people readily understand the law of supply and demand with regards to the labor market, except in the United States. Even Bibi has made similar arguments in favor of Israel keeping out foreigners.

Anonymous said...

Why does everyone give Putin such a pass, but never stop to consider just how difficult our political environment is to navigate for a right of center party. Honestly, considering the playing field with which they have to vie I consider the Republican party a far better force for conservatism and western culture than Putin.

You omit one huge point, probably because you are too young. Remember the USA as recently as forty years ago was 85% European. As recently as thirty years ago Reagan won 49 states. The so-called difficult political environment you mention was actually playing in favor of a center and center-right government.

So how did the GOP deal with this? They continued to import third worlders. Reagan even amnestied 3 million or so in 1986. And no republican since has really done anything to curtail this trend. In fact the republicans in charge, like W, have exacerbated it.

Any difficulties republicans now face were created in large part by them.

Putin inherited the people from the Caucasus region who have been part of Russian history for centuries. Our leaders imported our diversity literally overnight and continue unabated in one of the largest migrations of people in history.

Anonymous said...

"This is what GW Bush and every Republican presidential candidate with the exception of John McCain is trying to do to."

Er no. Republicans at the national level have fallen over themselves to balkanize America for money.

ATBOTL said...

What do you think these state supported neo-Cossack groups are about? Russia is consciously developing the kind of tribal structures amongst its own people necessary to manage chaps like Chechens and Uzbeks in the long term.

If any of these peoples ever presents a real threat to Russia, they will be destroyed. Everyone in that part of the world knows that. The idea is to build up Russian society so they can deal with these folks in less extreme ways. Russians who are members of honor bound Cossack clans are not going to be vulnerable to Chechen extortionists. Observant Orthodox Russians are not going to decide they need radical Islam to give meaning to their lives.

In the mean time, many Chechens will assimilate and Putin doesn't want violence against them to slow that process down.

"If indigenousness mattered then Putin would be giving the Crimea back to the Tartars."

You mean the Scythians? Last time I checked, the Mongols were not indigenous to the Black Sea region.

Hunsdon said...

Anonydroid at 1:02 PM said: When I googled Hundson + a woman's touch google just laughed at me.

Hunsdon said: A hit, a hit! A very palpable hit. You have wounded me to the quick.

Anonydroid: No one would ever claim that Georiga invaded Russia because that would be absurd.

Hunsdon said: Since Russia had occupied (parts of) South Ossetia since the fall of the Soviet Union, South Ossetia was de facto if not de jure, Russian territory. Given the information level of US media, I figured it was worth a shot.

I am glad to have amused you.

Hunsdon said...

Matt Buckalew said: Right now apply this logic to California. Oh right you can't because you aren't indigenous, but you think your wishes should be adhered to over those of the far more indigenous Hispanic residents there.

Hunsdon said: Hi, Matt! What do you mean by "indigenous"? Do you mean, "Mexican or Hispanic"? Most of the Hispanic population of California is not indigenous.

reiner Tor said...

Russian tanks knife into Estonia

I personally wouldn't support that one.

Anonymous said...

"If indigenousness mattered then Putin would be giving the Crimea back to the Tartars."

Tatars are relative newcomers to the Crimea. In historical times Greek presence there was especially lengthy, though Romans, Goths, Italians, Turks and many others had their turns. There are still some Greeks on the northern Black Sea coast, including in the Crimea, though they're most numerous in Mariupol. A large share of place names in the Crimea are of Greek origin - Simpheropol, Sevastopol, Theodosia, Eupatoria, etc. Russians still sometimes call the Crimea Tavrida, which was its Greek name. It sounds romantic, like Albion for Britain or Gaul for France.

reiner Tor said...

I kept thinking about this.

I'm interested what Steve's logic is going to be when the Russian tanks knife into Estonia to protect the Russian colonists rights against the indigenous Estonians. I'm betting indigenousness won't matter so much anymore.

Strange why you had to bring up the question of what Steve will write if and when Estonia will be occupied by Russian tanks.

Does that mean that you disagree with Steve's position because you think Steve will take an inconsistent position in the eventuality of a Russian incursion in Estonia, or because you would be against his position even if his position proved to be more principled than you now imagine?

Miguel S. said...

It's always harder to think of the little guy as the aggressor.

AmericanGoy said...

"Hunsdon said...
A search for "Georgia invaded Russia" 2008 returned zero results for me."

Err....

Here's a BBC documentary on the Ossetian war. When you watch it, you will realize two things:

1) It is very good, and impartial

2) This will NEVER be shown on American television

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K-ALvCYlZvY

AmericanGoy said...

"RWF in quoting Ben Judah wrote,""Able to import near-slave labour at minimal costs, employers had no need to modernize or protect workers' rights. This was not appreciated at the time, but due to the weakness of the rule of law, migrants may have been contributing to growth but they were stalling Russia's modernization — and further devaluing what it meant to be a 'Russian citizen'. """


There is so much projection going on here. Pot, meet Mr. Kettle...

Hunsdon said...

AmericanGoy said: Here's a BBC documentary on the Ossetian war.

Hunsdon said: Muchas gracias, as we Texicans say. (I wasn't saying I couldn't find any information, i was simply reporting the Google results of a straight up search.)

Bert said...

Considering Estonia is a member of both the EU and NATO, I think it's pretty damn unlikely Russia will be invading anytime soon.

Anonymous said...

"If indigenousness mattered then Putin would be giving the Crimea back to the Tartars."

The Crimea was 80% slaves for most of its history. The raiders varied over time but the slaves were all Slavs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean_Khanate#Slave_trade

Anonymous said...

Right now apply this logic to California. Oh right you can't because you aren't indigenous, but you think your wishes should be adhered to over those of the far more indigenous Hispanic residents there. If indigenousness mattered then Putin would be giving the Crimea back to the Tartars.

What don't you apply this logic to Israel?

Anonymous said...

indigenous Hispanic residents.

Ha ha. So the Tongva, Chumash, Yokuts, etc. were "Hispanic" while their Spanish conquerors were not, but rather were "white." That's a good one.

Difference Maker said...

If indigenousness mattered then Putin would be giving the Crimea back to the Tartars.


You mean the Indo Europeans.

And I must second the lol at "Hispanic" old California

Silver said...

"It's always harder to think of the little guy as the aggressor."

That's true. Israel has been proving it for sixty years.

Ivan the Terrible said...

The Tatar Khaganate never forgets.

Never learns either.

You'll shoot your eye out kid said...

The big guy standing behind the small guy enables the pint size bully to persecute Ralph from Christmas Story.

Dan said...

It's not allowed to see that particular little guy as a proxy.

Boulghassoul said...

Now Steve, you can't fault the media and search engines. Without the memory hole, how could the elites ever tell us, "we've always been at war with Eastasia"?

Anonymous said...

Both Abkhazia and South Ossetia LONG had the reputation as idyllic retirement lands for KGB and Spetsnaz officers.

Sochi is just up the coast from Abkhazia -- and had been the summer time retreat for the Soviet dictators from Brezhnev onwards. Indeed, there is one famous photograph taken circa 1980 that managed to capture the Soviet leadership from Brezhnev to Gorbachev in rank order -- left to right!

Since the Big Man summered there, so too did everyone else who mattered.

The KGB and Spetsnaz crowd ended up stationing a serious amount of manpower in the area to meet that chronic need.

(The Big Man or his underlings would jet down to Sochi all the time to warm up. Naturally, these holidays were never publicised, bad PR.)

As for South Ossetia, it LONG ago gained a reputation for great wines... sort of the Napa of the Soviet Union. As you might imagine, the Big Men decided that their personal wine groves needed special protection, too. And, what better retirement than to kick-back and watch the grapes grow in a climate like the south of France?

%%%

Then there's the curious timing. Putin had just completed a rail head -- terminating just north of the magic tunnel -- and just weeks before the 'sudden' out break of hostilities.

The reason that the Russian general was so far forward with his armor was that no serious resistance was expected. A full scale tank corps had previously been brought in by rail in the days before the problem began.

Their deployment was the sole and only reason that they were so close to hand, so timely. The nearest tank base was days away by rail. No tanks were flown in, of course.

The Soviets and Nazis had a predilection for fake oppression that required cross-border interventions. Such a subterfuge launched WWII at Poland, 1939. Similarly, the Red Army invaded Finland and Romania to protect cross border Russians. (Finland had been kicked loose from the Tsar in 1917 and so ratified by the Reds in November 1917. Prior to that it was Russian turf, entire.) The Turks had been oppressing the Slavs for centuries. So it was SOP for all the Tsars to enter into campaigns on that pretext. Using it again to go after Moldava/ Bessarabia was a no-brainer for Stalin.

In sum, you can't trust any of these players. Everything is played out in a hall of mirrors.

NATO satellite photos of Russian pre-deployed tanks are not put out for public consumption.

But those with any memories do recall that Russian movements before the conflict even erupted had already become news. Now they've been 'Winstoned.'

scottlocklin said...

Steve: clear out your cookies. I got 3500 on that search, and 5830 on a news search. My cookies also get balleeted every time I navigate away from google.

+1 on Crimea being Scythian and Greek rather than Tatar. Though the local Tatars are probably just as Slavic as everyone else in the region. They don't look much different.

Anonymous said...

Tatars in general do not look like Mongols but they do look different from Slavs. Think Charles Bronson who was of Tatar origin or Marat Safin or Rudolf Nuriev.