March 1, 2014

The war over the War of 2008

The Georgian invasion of Russian-supported South Ossetia on August 8, 2008 remains a touchstone. My recommendation is to never trust anybody who can't bring themselves to admit that, in the most meaningful sense, Georgia started it.

From the New York Times:
James F. Jeffrey was Mr. Bush’s deputy national security adviser in August 2008 and the first to inform him that Russian troops were moving into Georgia in response to what the Kremlin called Georgian aggression against South Ossetia. As it happened, the clash also took place at Olympic time; Mr. Bush and Mr. Putin were both in Beijing for the Summer Games. 
Mr. Bush confronted Mr. Putin to no avail and then ordered American ships to the region and provided a military transport to return home Georgian troops on duty in Iraq. He sent humanitarian aid on a military aircraft, assuming that Russia would be loath to attack the capital of Tbilisi with American military personnel present. Mr. Bush also suspended a pending civilian nuclear agreement, and NATO suspended military contacts. 
“We did a lot but in the end there was not that much that you could do,” Mr. Jeffrey recalled. 
Inside the Bush administration, there was discussion of more robust action, like bombing the Roki Tunnel to block Russian troops or providing Georgia with Stinger antiaircraft missiles. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice bristled at what she called the “chest beating,” and the national security adviser, Stephen J. Hadley, urged the president to poll his team to see if anyone recommended sending American troops. 
None did, and Mr. Bush was not willing to risk escalation. While Russia stopped short of moving into Tbilisi, it secured the effective independence of South Ossetia and Abkhazia, while leaving troops in areas it was supposed to evacuate under a cease-fire. Within a year or so, Russia’s isolation was over. Mr. Obama took office and tried to improve relations. NATO resumed military contacts in 2009 and the United States revived the civilian nuclear agreement in 2010. 
Mr. Jeffrey, now at the Washington Institute for Near East Policy, said Mr. Obama should now respond assertively by suggesting that NATO deploy forces to the Polish-Ukrainian border to draw a line. “There’s nothing we can do to save Ukraine at this point,” he said. “All we can do is save the alliance.”
  
My impression of the 2008 war is that George president Mikhail Saakashvili, who came to power in the Soros-backed Rose Revolution of 2003, bumptiously overestimated the power of his neocon and neolib friends in America and Israel, and the appetite of the truly powerful in those two countries for a shooting war with Russia. 

Nonetheless, Saakashvili was responding, in his cartoonish fashion, to a genuine reality: that America projects power all around the world, while Russia is much weaker and is largely limited to projecting power to ethnically friendly enclaves within the old Soviet Union.
  

59 comments:

Anonymous said...

Once again, when are you going to get around to blaming us for this ("this" not being Georgia)? I'm genuinely interested in what your argument will be.

jody said...

"My impression of the 2008 war is that George president Mikhail Saakashvili"

georgia president?

a GW induced typo, probably.

interesting reading about what G-dub did in response to the georgia situation. i never really followed that story. at the time, i was focused on the united states possibly electing the worst president ever.

Bert said...

That moron isn't legitimately suggesting that Russia would invade Poland, is he?

Anonymous said...

arm the opponents of the Russian military with Stingers? Seriously? That...ahem...has a pretty poor track record

Anonymous said...

have we gotten to the bottom of the troop transports out of Iraq yet? Does it seem in any way implausible that the Georgian troops could have walked into Iraq with ak47s and telescopes and returned home with fancy-schmancy (non-tracable) cutting edge stuff? Y'know..."poor record keeping" back at the FOB and all....

eah said...

Russian interests in Ukraine are a lot more significant than whatever could have been said to be at stake for the US in Grenada at the time.

anony-mouse said...

'... never trust anybody that won't admit that Georgia started it'.

I take this to be a dig at Sarah Palin who predicted Russia's invasion, based on Putin's actions and Obama's reactions.

Lou Grobian said...

@Jody,

By August 2008, wasn't it already a certainty that we were going to elect the worst president ever? The only question was which.

Anonymous said...

A few days ago in the comments section someone mentioned a never published manuscript from Anne Williamson, called:

CONTAGION THE BETRAYAL OF LIBERTY:RUSSIA AND THE UNITED STATES IN THE 1990

I have searched for it, with no luck. Has anyone located a copy?


Anonymous said...

Where did you get the idea that the Israeli government, or anyone of consequence in Israel, had anything to do with the Georgia/Russia war of 2008? Do you just assume that Israel is behind anything going in the world that you don't like?

Perhaps the small community of Israelis of Georgian origin or descent supported the Georgian government in that conflict, but I don't think they would have had much influence on anything.

Anonymous said...

jody at 6:45 is referring to mccain

5371 said...

I thought Steve Sailer already wrote more than one post about Mrs. Bob Kagan. Not enough for some, apparently.

Anonymous said...

Israeli secularists have strong ties to the Orthodox Jewish community that has lots of kids and provide the nationalist backbone for Israel. (And Jews even spit on Christians in Israel, but no outrage about that).

Putin knows that religious folks have more kids and want to rekindle Christianity in Russia.

But what's good for Jews is not good for Russians. Bad bad Russians for forming an alliance with the Orthodox Church.

Now suppose Russians funded a pussy riot movement in Israel, and the pussies stormed temples and interfered with religious services.

I wonder if the US media would praise such behavior or denounce it an sick movement funded by foreign elements.

Anonymous said...

That also happened around Olympics time.

Anonymous said...

Understandably, Steve has switched gears from writing about H-1Bs in the last weeks to focusing on Ukraine. But on the former topic Alan Greenspan just came up with what I think is a fairly novel justification for why we need to import more technology workers: to reduce inequality. According to the maestro our current levels of low immigration "act in essence as a wage subsidy for the economy's big money makers."

http://www.moneynews.com/StreetTalk/Greenspan-income-inequality-dangerous/2014/02/25/id/554685

Anonymous said...

There are many kinds of Americans.

Swedish-Americans
Greek-Americans
Chinese-Americans
Mexican-Americans
Italian-Americans
Irish-Americans
Nigerian-Americans
Cuban-Americans
Japanese-Americans
Norwegian-Americans
Indian-Americans
Dutch-Americans
etc
etc
etc

Out of all those kinds of Americans, who cares about what happens in the Ukraine and harbors dreams of using it as a bridge to take over Russia politically and economically.

Clue: they almost came to own Russia in the 90s.

Answer: Peruvian-Americans.

No kidding.

Without Peruvian-Americans, we would regard what happens over there as their business, not ours.

Anonymous said...

"Deploy forces to the Polish-Ukraine border"..

But why? Poland is not being attacked or threatened.

"We can't save Ukraine"..

Maybe because it is not a member of NATO, sport.

"We can only save the NATO alliance"....

How is what is happening in Ukraine, which is not a member of NATO, "threatening" the NATO alliance?

Anonymous said...

Note how the USA rejected using any military measures against Russia in 2008, while it didn't hesitate against Serbia in 1999.

The difference of course, is that unlike helpless Serbia, Russia is quite capable of defending itself against American aggression. And Washington knows it. Like all bullies, the USA can dish it out, but it can't take it.

Anonymous said...

http://www.gaynazis.com/

Lol

Larry David was right.

Anonymous said...

Steve - sorry to go O/T.

I was looking at the BBC site looking for Ukraine news and saw this:

Can 10,000 hours of practice make you an expert?

It seems some bloke is putting the 10,000 hour rule to the test. A non-golfer has started from scratch and seeing if he can become good enough to be a pro after the obligatory 10k hours of practice. He's done about 5k so far and apparently become quite good.

Anonymous said...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/ukip/10668996/Mass-immigration-has-left-Britain-unrecognisable-says-Nigel-Farage.html

Brits feeling like Palestinians.

Steve Sailer said...

10,000 hour golfer

http://thedanplan.com/statistics-2/

He's down to a 4.1 handicap. To be tour pro you need to be around, what, a minus 5, so he's got nine more strokes to go.

I'd guess he'll make it to about zero or scratch, which is defined as good enough to potentially qualify for the US Amateur tournament (although not to win).

Anonymous said...

I'm pretty pro-Russian and pro-Putin, to the extent that his desire to see Russia exercise appropriate influence in its "near abroad" doesn't hurt our interests. I hope he takes over eastern Ukraine and the Crimea, and if he bombs the fascists in Lvov, I wouldn't mind either.

But the idea that Georgia started the war in 2008 is an oversimplification. Russia was engaging in months of provocations, including violent ones, before the Georgians invaded South Ossetia.

Anonymous said...

http://alternative-right.blogspot.com/2014/03/crimea-and-punishment.html

Anonymous said...

I'll admit Georgia started once Steve gives his house to the Mexican government.


Let's compare to incidents just to show how sleazy Steve is being here. Georgian troops enter a break away province that is legitimately recognized by all nations except assorted Putin cronies (notice how no paleocons ever make fun of Putin's pathetic coalition of the bribed despite repeatedly smirking at the coalition assembled to invade Iraq) as part of Georgia. According to Steve that's an invasion.

Situation two Russia sends tanks and troops into the Crimea a region within the internationally recognized borders of Ukraine. Steves take the US (and Israel wink) started it. Compete and embarrassing hypocrisy made worse by the fact that this site would never accept Mexican forces crossing the rio grande to retake the land ceded by the treaty of Guadalupe hidalgo. The idea that someone would embrace the propaganda of their nations most belligerent international rival solely out of bitterness is basically embarrassing. I sure hope Mexican gangs don't seize LAX and declare it a part of the sovereign nation of Atzlan, but I sure would enjoy asking Steve what he did to start it.

Anonymous said...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2570474/Brixton-bar-owner-blames-late-night-violence-blighting-nightclub-industry-black-people.html

Steve Sailer said...

Like I've said, Georgia's role in 2008 was much like Egypt's in the Yom Kippur War of 1973: Eygpt had internationally recognized legal claim to the Sinai, which Israel had conquered in 1967. But everybody recognizes that it would be tendentious to try to obscure the fact that Egypt started the Yom Kippur War. (Heck, the Egyptians are proud they started it, just as the Georgians boasted about starting their war.)

But it's easier to manipulate Americans' memories of this crazy little war in the Caucasus.

Anonymous said...

Compete and embarrassing hypocrisy made worse by the fact that this site would never accept Mexican forces crossing the rio grande to retake the land ceded by the treaty of Guadalupe hidalgo. The idea that someone would embrace the propaganda of their nations most belligerent international rival solely out of bitterness is basically embarrassing. I sure hope Mexican gangs don't seize LAX and declare it a part of the sovereign nation of Atzlan, but I sure would enjoy asking Steve what he did to start it.

The last resort of the neocon is to threaten Americans into supporting their foreign policy by arguing that if we don't support it, then we have no moral grounds in which to preserve our territory from revanchist Mexicans. The implication is, if we don't support their chosen parties worldwide in the struggle for land, we might not have their support when Mexico comes a calling. The very fact that they would even suggest Mexico has a valid claim, and would entertain the possibility of letting our land fall into Mexican hands, is proof positive that their primary loyalties and concerns lie not with America. And that is precisely why folks on blogs like this have no use for them.

You refer to Russia as the most belligerent international rival. We disagree. Russia has not invaded the USA. Russia has not flooded the USA with tens of millions of third worlders like the universalist neocons . Russia has not hollowed out our industrial base like the free trader neocons. In short Russia might be belligerent to you, but you are toxic to us.

Anonymous said...

"My impression of the 2008 war is that George president Mikhail Saakashvili, who came to power in the Soros-backed Rose Revolution of 2003, bumptiously overestimated the power of his neocon and neolib friends in America"

That could be it but I think it's more that the oligarchs simply try their luck.

These various crises serve their agenda as a strategy of tension and probably don't cost very much in total at least in relatively poor countries.

In a lot of cases the oligarchs probably turn a profit through contracts from the newly installed governments. I wouldn't be surprised if the people who funded the Georgian revolution own half of Georgia now.

Anonymous said...

Hebrew-nationalists want a war with the Russkies?

Hell, we were all set to sell them the offshore natural gas, when Jordan (synthetically) outbid them by asking to take most of it.... without any need for us to spend a quarter-billion on equipping Ashdod port to be able to ship it to Russia.

We ==did== just sign an Open Skies airlines agreement with Russia. So now I guess there will not only be more Russian tourists to Israel than there is to Pattaya... there will be more to Pattaya AND Saipan combined.

dearieme said...

Why do you want to pick a fight with the nation that sold you Alaska? If you're feeling frustrated why not go and conquer some more of Polynesia? Call it "Greater Hawaii".

Anonymous said...

Re the Gladwellian golfer: He has no chance.

I was a five handicap once. Rory McIroy, Adam Scott, et al, were right to feel unthreatened.

Golf is hard.

Gilbert P.

Fascist Kulak Wrecker said...

I'm pretty pro-Russian and pro-Putin, to the extent that his desire to see Russia exercise appropriate influence in its "near abroad" doesn't hurt our interests. I hope he takes over eastern Ukraine and the Crimea, and if he bombs the fascists in Lvov, I wouldn't mind either.

Would you mind if Putin starts a second holodomor?

Anonymous said...

http://www.eyeforfilm.co.uk/feature/2014-03-02-alain-resnais-obituary-feature-story-by-richard-mowe

Anonymous said...

"Like I've said, Georgia's role in 2008 was much like Egypt's in the Yom Kippur War of 1973: Eygpt had internationally recognized legal claim to the Sinai, which Israel had conquered in 1967. But everybody recognizes that it would be tendentious to try to obscure the fact that Egypt started the Yom Kippur War. (Heck, the Egyptians are proud they started it, just as the Georgians boasted about starting their war.)"

Steve, that's a ridiculous analogy. Israel conquered the Sinai in a defensive war forced on it by Egypt and other Arab countries, which had announced their intention to initiate a war to end Israel's existence. Whatever excuse Russia gave for occupying Ossetia, they did not face any existential threat from puny Georgia.

Again, could you tell us where you got the idea that the Israeli government was pulling the strings behind the 2008 Georgia/Russia war? Don't you think the Israelis, then as at all times before and after, had more urgent things to think about than the fate of a small mountain country that counts for close to nothing in international affairs? Also, do you really think Israel can afford to gratuitously annoy a huge country like Russia on a matter of no direct importance to Israel?

I really wish you would go back to writing about things you know something about, which is basically just about everything EXCEPT foreign policy.

Anonymous said...

Afghan war also got associated with the Olympics.

In that one, Soviets moved into a nation where support for Russia was non-existent.

There are parts of Ukraine that are receptive to Russian power.

Anonymous said...

Russian interests in Ukraine are a lot more significant than whatever could have been said to be at stake for the US in Grenada at the time.

Russian interests in Ukraine are a lot more significant than anything over which the USA conducted war since the Mexican War.

Anonymous said...

From an earlier post:
"These days, this usually is remembered as Russia attacking Georgia (which would make more sense considering the size differential, but didn't actually happen)."
"...Georgia's surprise invasion of Russian-occupied territory was similar to Egypt's and Syria's invasions of Israeli-occupied territory in the 1973 Yom Kippur War. Except, it made even less sense without the assumption of superpower intervention."

Now you write:
"My recommendation is to never trust anybody who can't bring themselves to admit that, in the most meaningful sense, Georgia started it."

The linchpin of your own explanation of the 2008 war is Georgia being an irrational actor, invading a much larger country in a way you would not expect a priori. Perhaps it would be best to admit that it might be little more complex than that? That you don't know everything about it? I know I sure don't.


Moving on from the Georgia 2008 war, I have predicted for the last decade that this would all come to a head in 2017 with the renewal of the contract for the Russian Crimea naval base, so I suppose I don't have the best predictive powers. It does seem silly that Crimea is still part of the Ukraine, though. Perhaps we should fight for the self-determination of the eastern Ukraine?

Anonymous said...

Here's an extract from an article in Time magazine, "What Israel Lost in the Georgia War", By Tony Karon Thursday, Aug. 21, 2008:


"...Georgian Cabinet Minister Temur Yakobashvili... expressing himself in fluent Hebrew, telling Israeli Army Radio that "Israel should be proud of its military, which trained Georgian soldiers." ...impression that Israel had helped bolster the Georgian military was one the Israeli Foreign Ministry was anxious to avoid. ...recommended a freeze on the further supply of equipment and expertise to Georgia by Israeli defense contractors.

...the Israelis were looking to downplay the significance of military ties, they weren't helped by comments like Yakobashvili's — or by Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili's enthusing at a press conference earlier this week that "the Israeli weapons have been very effective." ...


President Saakashvili ... noted.. both his minister responsible for negotiations over South Ossetia (Yakobashvili) and his Defense Minister, Davit Kezerashvili, had lived in Israel before moving to post-Soviet Georgia. According to the Israeli daily Haaretz, the Georgian leader this week enthused that in Tbilisi, "both war and peace are in the hands of Israeli Jews." Working through the Georgian Defense Ministry (and with the approval of its Israeli counterpart), Israeli companies are reported to have supplied the Georgians with pilotless drones, night-vision equipment, anti-aircraft equipment, shells, rockets and various electronic systems. Even more important than equipment may have been the advanced tactical training and consultancy provided, as private contractors, by retired top Israeli generals such as Yisrael Ziv and Gal Hirsch, the man who commanded Israeli ground forces during their disastrous foray into Lebanon in 2006..."

Mr. Anon said...

"Anonymous said...

Situation two Russia sends tanks and troops into the Crimea a region within the internationally recognized borders of Ukraine.."

The borders may be "internationally" recognized, but they don't seem to be recognized by the russian majority that actually lives there. The Crimea is only a part of Ukraine because the Soviet government gave it to them in 1954. Before that it had been part of Russia.

I. Jugashvili, Georgia's Favorite Son said...

I have to say that on this one, I go with Anonymous @11:02, who chides Steve Sailer for suggesting that the Georgian actions in 2008 constituted an "invasion".

SS responds with equivocation: "But everybody recognizes that it would be tendentious to try to obscure the fact that Egypt started the Yom Kippur War. (Heck, the Egyptians are proud they started it, just as the Georgians boasted about starting their war.)"

No doubt. But here's what you said in the OP: "The Georgian invasion of Russian-supported South Ossetia on August 8, 2008 remains a touchstone."

You cannot weasel your way out of the fact that your own words were tendentious and false. South Ossetia was recognized as part of Georgia, and the Georgians can't invade their own country.

You can characterize their actions as foolhardy all you want, but trying to reclaim a legitimate part of their own country is not an "invasion" and never will be.

Anonymous said...

Georgia's son is absolutely right Steve keeps trying to play semantic games by equating invasion and war. Yea ok Georgia started the 2008 Georgian civil war after which Russia invaded to help one side of the civil war. To the extent that it is a war not a civil war that is entirely the responsibility of the Russia for invading another country.

When you cross another nations borders you have invaded them. Strangely for all the squawking of the paleos it's Russia not the US that has done this 2 times in five years.

To put it in perspective by Steve's logic Cuba started the bay of pigs invasion. Actually be Steve's logic Cuba invaded the US.

Anonymous said...

About the overall timeline of the 2008 Russian-Georgian war:

"The 1991–92 South Ossetia War between ethnic Georgians and Ossetians had left slightly more than a half of South Ossetia under de facto control of a Russian-backed, internationally unrecognised government. ...with Georgian, North Ossetian and Russian Joint peacekeeping force present...

During the night of 7 to 8 August 2008, Georgia launched a large-scale military offensive against South Ossetia, in an attempt to reclaim the territory...

...The Georgian attack caused casualties among Russian peacekeepers, who resisted the assault along with Ossetian militia. Georgia successfully captured most of Tskhinvali within hours. Russia reacted by deploying units of the Russian 58th Army and Russian Airborne Troops into South Ossetia one day later, and launched airstrikes against Georgian forces in South Ossetia and military and logistical targets in Georgia proper. ...

Russian and Ossetian forces battled Georgian forces throughout South Ossetia for four days... After five days of heavy fighting in South Ossetia, the Georgian forces retreated, enabling the Russians to enter uncontested Georgia and temporarily occupy the cities of...

...

The Georgian plan completely overlooked the possibility of Russian intervention, with no apparent preparations for clashes with Russian troops, and no reasonable precautions were taken to provide air defense cover for Georgian troops in the event of Russian air attacks."

Anonymous said...

To Anonymous at 8:21 a.m.:

If those are the best quotes you could find in that Time article, you didn't find much to tie Israel to Georgia's policies leading to the 2008 war. All those quotes say is that the Georgian government included Georgian Jews who had returned to Georgia from Israel after Georgia became independent. If you think - without evidence - that those guys were agents of the Israeli government, you're some kind of co0nspiracy nut; Israel is not North Korea, and the actions of its private citizens abroad do not reflect Israeli government policy, any more than the actions of US citizens abroad reflect US government policy. The same goes for the retired Israeli generals. All of the world, there are private Israeli military contractors trying to make a buck; they do not represent the government. The training Israel provided to the fearsome Georgian military - in the hope, no doubt, of getting a tiny bit of diplomatic support in the UN general assembly - does not mean that Israel was pulling the strings for, or even consulted about, a military adventure in which it had no real interest. Again, Israel is not some hydra-headed monster controlling events around the planet; it is a tiny country trying to survive, against the wishes of its neighbors, and it cannot afford to get on the wrong side of a power like Russia over an issue that is basically irrelevant to Israel.

Finally, American neocons - some of whom, like Kagan, seem to be distancing themselves from Israel and otherwise rebranding to make themselves marketable to the current and future Democratic administrations - do not, in any way, shape or form, speak for the Israeli government, which is and has always been hostile to the idea of "democratizing" the Islamic world. (Natan Sharansky, who is no longer in politics, was an exception - that is why he is no longer in politics.)

Anonymous said...

Again, could you tell us where you got the idea that the Israeli government was pulling the strings behind the 2008 Georgia/Russia war? Don't you think the Israelis, then as at all times before and after, had more urgent things to think about than the fate of a small mountain country that counts for close to nothing in international affairs? Also, do you really think Israel can afford to gratuitously annoy a huge country like Russia on a matter of no direct importance to Israel?

The story in 2008, was that Israel was interested in Georgia because they wanted to be able to use air bases in Georgia in case they needed to launch an air strike on Iran. Since the Iranians would presumably believe an Israeli air strike would come from the West, being able to launch from Georgia would have been a nice surprise. This made that small mountain country that counts for close to nothing in international affairs very important.

Anonymous said...

"South Ossetia was recognized as part of Georgia, and the Georgians can't invade their own country. "

The Ossetian position on this is "we're not Georgians, we don't want to be in Georgia".

The right-to-self-determination-of-all-peoples position is "why should Ossetians be in Georgia if they don't want to?"

The Russian position is "Georgians asked us to let them into Russia in 1799 alone, by themselves, but in 1991 they wanted to leave with South Ossetia and Abkhazia in their pockets. South Ossetians and Abkhazians didn't want to go with Georgians. They actually asked us to protect them from Georgians. It's nice to have people wanting our protection."

The Georgian position is "on paper South Ossetia and Abkhazia are ours. Why can't we have them in real life?"

The neocon position is "We hate Russia. We're going to scour the Earth for any conflicts in which Russia might be involved and support the other side in them."

Steve Sailer said...

Georgia President Saakashvili: "Both war and peace are in the hands of Israeli Jews."

http://isteve.blogspot.com/2008/08/saakashvili-both-war-and-peace-are-in.html

Saakashvili was a buffoon who took the sales pitches of Israeli arms salesmen as representing a true commitment:

http://isteve.blogspot.com/2008/08/conspiracies-vs-networks.html

Anonymous said...

@Anonymous at 2:11:

I would not assume the truth of those reports you link to. The website is one I've never heard of, and I would not trust the virulently anti-Israel Guardian on these matters. Even if it's true, I would not blame the Israelis for trying to set up bases for an attack on Iran from an unexpected direction. I'm one of those weirdoes who think Jews have as much right to defend themselves from genocidal maniacs as anyone else. Strange, I know, but that's the way I roll.

The silly comment by the Georgian president quoted by Steve is just what one would expect from the president of a banana republic who just got his dick stuck in a ringer. I have no argument with the assertion that Saakashvili was a buffoon. Once he drove his little country into a ditch, he certainly would have wanted to deflect blame for the disaster to the country that serves as the world's all-purpose scapegoat for humanity's fallen condition, as evidenced by many of the comments here.

Anonymous said...

I would not trust the virulently anti-Israel Guardian on these matters. Even if it's true, I would not blame the Israelis for trying to set up bases for an attack on Iran from an unexpected direction.

I think you're saying that anyone who thinks Israel had anything to do with Georgia 2008 is a hatefull anti-semite, but if Israel secretly did, you're all for it.

Got it.

Anonymous said...

And Jews even spit on Christians in Israel, but no outrage about that

From what I read, those were students at haredi (ultra-Orthodox) yeshivot, and they did not receive press sympathy or popular sympathy outside their own camp. It was hardly an act common to all Israeli Jews.

Anonymous said...

@Anonymous at 6:32 p.m.

I don't think there's anything wrong with Israel taking steps to defend itself from your friends in the Iranian regime, although I haven't seen any convincing report that this is what was going on in Georgia. Believing that Israel is responsible for everything in the world one dislikes (as you apparently disapprove of Georgia's actions in 2008) does tend to be a characteristic of hateful anti-Semites.

I myself have no strong feelings about the dispute between Georgia and Russia (unlike you, evidently), and agree that the US had no vital interest at stake there. If the Israelis did or said anything to encourage Georgia to provoke Russia (which I doubt they did), they miscalculated. But all countries miscalculate from time to time in pursuing their perceived self-interest, as you may have noticed. I don't think Israel is under any special obligation, not incumbent on other countries, to act as some sort of goody-two-shoes on the international stage. Perhaps we should ask why the US does such a poor job of pursuing and defending the interests of its own citizens, instead of sniping at Israel for using sharp elbows against countries that collaborate with those out to kill its citizens.

Anonymous said...

"arm the opponents of the Russian military with Stingers? Seriously? That...ahem...has a pretty poor track record" - How do you mean? not one of them was ever used against us, and incidentally weren't given to the arabs sitting on their butts in pakistan.

Anonymous said...

"The borders may be "internationally" recognized, but they don't seem to be recognized by the russian majority that actually lives there. The Crimea is only a part of Ukraine because the Soviet government gave it to them in 1954. Before that it had been part of Russia." - actually it had belonged to the Tartar muslims before that(they were shift off for collaborating with the nazis),and they may well emerge the victors in whatever conflict comes to the Ukraine as well.

Anonymous said...

I think you're saying that anyone who thinks Israel had anything to do with Georgia 2008 is a hatefull anti-semite, but if Israel secretly did, you're all for it.

Well, Time magazine is well known for spreading ugly virulent anti-semitic conspiracy theory stereotypes so I think he has a point. (Guffaw, guffaw.)

Hunsdon said...

Anonydroid at 7:34 PM said: Again, could you tell us where you got the idea that the Israeli government was pulling the strings behind the 2008 Georgia/Russia war?

Hunsdon said: Israel has engaged in extensive military cooperation with Georgia. Israel sold Georgia armored vehicles and small arms, and Israeli special forces and private contractors have trained Georgian troops. Israel sold Georgia its fleet of UAVs, LAR-160 rocket launchers, anti-tank mines, and cluster bombs. On 5 August 2008, it was reported by Stratfor and Russia Today that Israel planned to halt arms sales to Georgia due to Russian objections.[5][6] Israel continued to train Georgian security forces, though on a more limited scale.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgia%E2%80%93Israel_relations

Hunsdon said...

Anonydroid at 11:40 AM said: When you cross another nations borders you have invaded them. Strangely for all the squawking of the paleos it's Russia not the US that has done this 2 times in five years.

Hunsdon said: That's a rich one. Admittedly, we do tend to get "invited in" by a puppet regime . . . but then that's true of the Soviets in Afghanistan in '79, isn't it?

Alice said...

I think the fact that Steve woke up crazy KGB trolls on the web to start anonymously posting here to defend Russia should give him pause.

Steve, being on Putin's side is a sign of insanity.

For the rest of the commentates looking for a better analysis of Ukraine, please read The Belmont Clubs last few posts at PJmedia.com/richardfernandez.

Crazy KGB Troll.... I mean Simon in London, Comrade. said...

>>Anonymous Anonymous said...
"South Ossetia was recognized as part of Georgia, and the Georgians can't invade their own country. "

The Ossetian position on this is "we're not Georgians, we don't want to be in Georgia".

The right-to-self-determination-of-all-peoples position is "why should Ossetians be in Georgia if they don't want to?"

The Russian position is "Georgians asked us to let them into Russia in 1799 alone, by themselves, but in 1991 they wanted to leave with South Ossetia and Abkhazia in their pockets. South Ossetians and Abkhazians didn't want to go with Georgians. They actually asked us to protect them from Georgians. It's nice to have people wanting our protection."

The Georgian position is "on paper South Ossetia and Abkhazia are ours. Why can't we have them in real life?"

The neocon position is "We hate Russia. We're going to scour the Earth for any conflicts in which Russia might be involved and support the other side in them."<<

I think that's a fair analysis. It's none of my business, but AFAICT Ossetians didn't cross the Georgian border, the border crossed them, and they shouldn't have to be in Georgia if they don't want to be. It's different from the immigrant-invasions of Albanians into Kosovo and Mexicans into California: if you come as immigrants, you shouldn't then try to make off with the real estate you immigrated into. That puts Sam Houston's conquest of Texas on the bad side of the good/bad Separationist line, but I can live with that. I'm willing to make an unprincipled exception for my (real) Scots-Irish kinfolk. >:)

Crazy KGB Troll.... I mean Simon in London, Comrade. said...

Hunsdon said: That's a rich one. >>Admittedly, we do tend to get "invited in" by a puppet regime . . . but then that's true of the Soviets in Afghanistan in '79, isn't it?<<

Yeah, that one always makes me laugh. "Soviet invasion of Afghanistan" = "American invasion of Vietnam" - with similar consequences.
My Vietnamese students are charming, BTW. My one Afghan student was pretty good, too.