tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post1191063672784704394..comments2024-03-27T18:24:19.683-07:00Comments on Steve Sailer: iSteve: 150th Anniversary of GettysburgUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger61125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-44335081449721537982013-07-02T21:35:28.928-07:002013-07-02T21:35:28.928-07:00Lee's Napoleonic strategy involved a deliberat...<i>Lee's Napoleonic strategy involved a deliberate full-scale invasion of the north. His intention was to meet and defeat the union army and then to choose whether to attack Harrisburg or Washington. Northern sentiment against the war was strong enough at this point that the capture of either city would likely have led to a politically brokered end to the war."<br /><br />Look, I'm a southerner, but I don't have any particular affection for Scarlett and Rhett.<br /><br />However in Lee's defense, the fact that the war had gone as well as it had for the South to that point is more an indictment of the North not getting it's act together than any real strategic chance of winning the war by combat.<br /><br />Lee had to do something. The North had three times the population, vastly more money, industrial production that dwarfed anything the South had....</i><br /><br />And what is your point? <br /><br />Lee didn't have to lose at Gettysberg. Choosing to commit the main body of his army to battle at Gettysberg was not inevitable, not due to some unavoidable force of nature. Neither was the decision to frontally assault the Union army on Cemetery Ridge and Little Round Top instead of trying to outflank Meade's army inevitable. <br /><br /><i> ... He was undone, in the end, by weather (includes the Moscow campaign), which is as close to being undone by Fate as one can get. One can get away with starting many battles but any run holds out only so long, then nature/karma/whatever calls a halt. Hitler found this out, too. Not only did his invasion of Russia fail because of the cold, but Irving even says unlucky weather is what prevented his starting the invasion sooner to begin with.</i><br /><br />Isn't blaming things on fate/nature/karma/whatever merely a way of making excuses?<br /><br />In his book <i>Panzer Leader</i>, Heinz Guderian claims he could have taken Moscow in spite of the weather if Hitler had let Guderian fold Army Groups North and South into Guderians' Army Group Central and concentrated German forces against Moscow's defenses. With Moscow under new management, Guderian said that the Baltic and Caucasian campaigns could have successfully resumed in the spring.<br /><br />In short, Guderian claims that the Ostkrieg failed because of one man's bad decisions.David Davenporthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03315090179595817174noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-310161038610729622013-07-02T13:52:22.947-07:002013-07-02T13:52:22.947-07:00Today on facebook (yes, yes, I know) I saw a post ...Today on facebook (yes, yes, I know) I saw a post by a Slavic page that in translation read: A people who do not know their roots do not deserve a future.<br /><br />Purely coincidentally, the White House has had no proclamations, announcements, statements, remarks or proclamations regarding the 150th anniversary of Gettysburg.Hunsdonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-49093578936114868112013-07-02T13:48:46.585-07:002013-07-02T13:48:46.585-07:00The Flashman books are really quite excellent. Bu...The Flashman books are really quite excellent. Buried amidst the cavalry whiskers, cowardice and carnality is some thumping good military history. The first time through, just read it. The second time through, read the end notes as you go. The third time through, read the end notes and take notes. George Macdonald Fraser was a cracking good author.<br /><br />In addition to the Flashman series, he wrote a much shorter, much lighter MacAuslan series ("The General Danced at Dawn"), the screenplays for "The Three (and Four) Musketeers" and "Octopussy," a memoir of his service under General Slim in the IBC Theater during WW2 ("Quartered Safe Out Here") and finally, a bitter old man's ruminations on the destruction of his homeland, "Light's On at Signpost."<br /><br />If you are a regular here, I would wager quite long odds that you would like Fraser's writing.Hunsdonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-87379019220087480402013-07-02T09:10:26.848-07:002013-07-02T09:10:26.848-07:00In answer to JeremiahJohnbalaya.
I'm not the...In answer to JeremiahJohnbalaya. <br /><br />I'm not the one to ask. I have one Flashman novel in my bookcase which I have yet to read. OTOH I've read at least twenty Cornwell books. Cornwell's scholarship is good. Most of his novels have a short final chapter where he explains what liberties he took with the facts.<br /><br />I've read all of McCullough's Roman novels too, as well as a couple dozen other novels set in Rome. I think I have four different novels based on the Cataline Conspiracy.<br /><br />McCullough's scholarship is more than excellent. She has the best explanation for Spartacus I've read anywhere.<br /><br />If you read Livy for example you are also reading what we would call today historical fiction. Polybius is closer to what we now call a real historian but most of our ancient sources made up a lot of stuff to serve their puposes. Plutarch carefully fit real personalities into his moral plotlines. He was telling a story and making various political and ethical points. He wasn't trying to be objective and just recount the facts.<br /><br />I need to read some more Newt Gingrich. Two years ago I hoped that he would lose in the primaries so he could write some more novels. Had he won the economy would certainly be better but we would probably have American boots on the Syrian ground. Better he write novels.<br /><br />On today's topic - Gettysburg - there are I'm told 5,000 books in print. I had previously thought that the most tedious book I had ever read was a book on Ukrainian philology. But it was nothing compared to a book on Gettysburg artillery. The various Parrott, Napoleon and Ordinance guns are interesting enough but this book was a compilation of which officer had which little battery where on the battlefield at ever hour of all three days. A couple hundred pages of this induces tertiary MEGO.<br /><br />Albertosaurus <br /><br />Pat Boylehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13477950851915567863noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-732604171444779782013-07-01T21:44:54.383-07:002013-07-01T21:44:54.383-07:00It is interesting how poor medical care was in the...It is interesting how poor medical care was in the Civil War and how really poor it was in Napoleon's time.<br /><br />It is apparently now irrefutable that Napoleon's Army was dying of a <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Typhus" rel="nofollow">Typhus</a> epidemic before he crossed into Russia and was thereafter constantly shrinking due to the disease. Napoleon probably understood what the numbers meant and how it put time limits on his campaign. His medical staff was clueless as to what to do about it. Of course, such losses due to disease were probably normal thoughout history.<br /><br />Interesting takes: <a href="http://entomology.montana.edu/historybug/napoleon/typhus_russia.htm" rel="nofollow">Insects, Disease, and Military History: The Napoleonic Campaigns and Historical Perception</a>, Robert K. D. Peterson.<br /><br /><a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/4534540.stm" rel="nofollow">Lice 'undermined Napoleon's army'</a>, BBC.<br /><br /><a href="http://www.amazon.com/The-Illustrious-Dead-Napoleon-Conquest/dp/B002CSL0KC" rel="nofollow">The Illustrious Dead: Napoleon, Typhus, and the Dream of World Conquest</a>, Stephan Talty.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-58553494001710602072013-07-01T20:28:06.721-07:002013-07-01T20:28:06.721-07:00How about a treat? Hear a a trumpet that was used ...How about a treat? Hear a a trumpet that was used at the Battle of Waterloo, June 18, 1815, of the Napoleonic Wars, played by Trumpeter Landfrey, who was a bugler in the Light Brigade at the Battle of Balaklava, October 25, 1854, of the Crimean War. And his voice as well!<br /><br />http://archive.org/details/EDIS-SWDPC-01-04Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-80709634947744071932013-07-01T17:53:34.695-07:002013-07-01T17:53:34.695-07:00>I don't believe Napoleon would have been a...>I don't believe Napoleon would have been able to attack during the morning, the ground was still too muddy to maneuver his canon's effectively.<<br /><br />I agree. He was undone, in the end, by weather (includes the Moscow campaign), which is as close to being undone by Fate as one can get. One can get away with starting many battles but any run holds out only so long, then nature/karma/whatever calls a halt. Hitler found this out, too. Not only did his invasion of Russia fail because of the cold, but Irving even says unlucky weather is what prevented his starting the invasion sooner to begin with.<br /><br />Wars of aggression in general have baleful effects on the aggressor as well as on the victims. One of these boomerangs is immigration from the attacked country. Do a dust-up in the Middle East and you get a significant injection of Middle Eastern refugees, "wretched refuse of the teeming shore." We went to Vietnam and all we got were these lousy pedicure palaces. France in Algeria led to Algeria in France. Buying captives from Africa meant becoming captives in Detroit et al. ...and dying of gangrene in Gettysburg.<br /><br />Most of the time, it's not a bad idea to stay home and mind one's own business.Davidhttp://david-passingparade2.blogspot.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-22379539302682617802013-07-01T17:02:02.517-07:002013-07-01T17:02:02.517-07:00These new immigrants won´t care because they are a...These new immigrants won´t care because they are a different race, Blacks who have been in America as long as can be don´t give a damn about American history other than to bad-mouth it. <br /><br />I`m white but my family only arrived in the 1920´s. And no one was of a correct age to fight in WW@ or NAM or any other war. But, I still feel great appreciation for Americn history. I feel connected to the Founding Fathers, and genuinly feel like a descendant of them and America´s great pioneers and inventors. Why am I different than are new brown immigrants... its truly sad, because america is arguably, including england, italy, greece, the most important country in world history.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-22071684500802905362013-07-01T16:49:52.793-07:002013-07-01T16:49:52.793-07:00To my mind there are really only two interesting h...To my mind there are really only two interesting hypotheticals for the Civil War<br /><br />A) stonewall doesn't die at Chancellorsville <br /><br />B) what does a Beddford Forest led guerrilla campaign look like <br /><br />Lee basically so much as said the game was up when Stonewall died. Indeed, it is intersting to read the Southern Agrarians and discover the only unimanously revered commander was stonewall. Lee was picked because he was basically one of the few patricians who could both not snob off at enlisted men and not get in senseless duels or gethis honor hurt and pout. I don't say this critical that's just the reality of Southern culture at the time.<br /><br />Sam HaysomAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-8237394310362505292013-07-01T16:37:50.114-07:002013-07-01T16:37:50.114-07:00On the issue of "biology" do the Italian...<i>On the issue of "biology" do the Italians remember Roman battles fondly? They are biologically the same people as those that lived on the Italian peninsula under Julius Caesar....</i><br /><br />Prove it. ben tillmannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-50901862275465422232013-07-01T16:05:49.101-07:002013-07-01T16:05:49.101-07:00One thing is clear. If Napoleon won at Waterloo th...One thing is clear. If Napoleon won at Waterloo the West would have been much less vibrant than now. <br /><br />The wrong sides won most of wars and the price is global vibrancy. It is perhaps deserving that Gettysburg is now slowly slipping into the dustbin of history by the very people this battle intended to 'free'.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-81390238797245516642013-07-01T16:04:06.385-07:002013-07-01T16:04:06.385-07:00"but Napoleon was vastly more knowledgeable a..."but Napoleon was vastly more knowledgeable about the operational level of war, even as his strategic knowledge was so poor that he thought attacking Russia was a good idea."<br /><br />Well that may have been the motive - knowing how good he was and knowing how hard it would be even then - the ultimate challenge.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-4738312543484043742013-07-01T15:04:03.422-07:002013-07-01T15:04:03.422-07:00We weren't grateful. Why should today's im...We weren't grateful. Why should today's immigrants be? People should keep that in mind when they consider the insane amount of immigration we're allowing today.<br />----------------<br /><br />Maybe keeping what you say "in mind" is one of causes of the levels of immigration today.<br /><br />Eh, sporty?Haciendanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-50079677555954356462013-07-01T14:53:37.061-07:002013-07-01T14:53:37.061-07:00This seems a canard given the strategic and tactic...<i>This seems a canard given the strategic and tactical brilliance that Lee demonstrated in every other campaign he planned and led.</i><br /><br />Actually, before he took command of the Army of Northern Virginia on 1 June 1862, Lee was best known in the Confederacy for having planned a disastrous campaign to recover breakaway West Virginia for Richmond, and for having planned and led the defense of coastal SC and GA which led to the loss of Fort Pulaski. His appointment to ANV C-in-C came as a shock to the southern press, which was calling him "Granny Lee".Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-26648467851628671562013-07-01T14:52:22.269-07:002013-07-01T14:52:22.269-07:00"Well in a couple of thousand years I would e...<b>"Well in a couple of thousand years I would expect the population to resemble the original inhabitants in skin tone and many other features. The original population was presumably optimized for existence in this environment."</b><br /><br />The Amerindians of 1491 were optimized for air conditioned homes, cars, and offices? For work that was more demanding mentally than physically? Who knew?Matthewnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-82299356405097378582013-07-01T14:37:39.765-07:002013-07-01T14:37:39.765-07:00"For some reason, visiting museums and histor...<b>"For some reason, visiting museums and historical sites has become a 'white thing' than even the highly educated Asians do not bother to do."</b><br /><br />Why would they give a shit? Because we were nice enough to let them move here? Massasoit helped my ancestors survive their first winter at Plymouth. Fat lotta good that did his descendants.<br /><br />We weren't grateful. Why should today's immigrants be? People should keep that in mind when they consider the insane amount of immigration we're allowing today.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br />Matthewnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-56182582270994956962013-07-01T14:35:24.682-07:002013-07-01T14:35:24.682-07:00Anonymous wrote:
"The standard history of Ge...Anonymous wrote:<br /><br />"The standard history of Gettysburg that I've read is that Lee launched an incursion into Pennsylvania for no particular strategic reason, the confederate and union troops inevitably met at Gettysburg - a major road and railroad junction - and then Lee frittered away his army attacking a well-entrenched union army holding the high ground.<br /><br />This seems a canard given the strategic and tactical brilliance that Lee demonstrated in every other campaign he planned and led. I read a book in the past five years that suggests an alternative and much more plausible scenario and one which gives Custer a place of honor. The scenario goes as follows:<br /><br />Lee's Napoleonic strategy involved a deliberate full-scale invasion of the north. His intention was to meet and defeat the union army and then to choose whether to attack Harrisburg or Washington. Northern sentiment against the war was strong enough at this point that the capture of either city would likely have led to a politically brokered end to the war."<br /><br />Look, I'm a southerner, but I don't have any particular affection for Scarlett and Rhett.<br /><br />However in Lee's defense, the fact that the war had gone as well as it had for the South to that point is more an indictment of the North not getting it's act together than any real strategic chance of winning the war by combat.<br /><br />Lee had to do something. The North had three times the population, vastly more money, industrial production that dwarfed anything the South had.<br /><br />Plus the South had one heck of a fifth column waiting to emerge. I'll leave it as an exercise to the reader as to what that would have been.<br /><br />All these movies and stuff make it appear like both sides were totally united and of one soul or something. This isn't true. There were draft riots in NYC.<br /><br />Parts of the South didn't secede (West by God). Within the southern states there were counties that officially didn't secede (whatever that meant really).<br /><br />You had real friction between the Planters and the backwoods and lower class whites, particularly in the uplands of many southern states.<br /><br />I think I read it in the American nations book, but I've read the theory that if the South hadn't attacked Fort Sumter, prevailing opinion in a lot of states in the North might have precluded the war from occurring. Basically those Citadel cadets, egged on if they were, sealed the fate of the whole thing by attacking and setting public opinion in the North solidly in favor of war.<br /><br />Obviously a lot of New England states were all in to the conflict, but other states like Pennsylvania and New York weren't exactly gung ho about the whole thing.<br /><br />Just saying that defeat for the South was inevitable given the logistic discrepancies alone. The only way to win was to make the North want to throw in the towel, not by direct military efforts.<br /><br />Well I guess a foreign power like Great Britain could have jumped in, but that is about the only way.<br /><br />Because even if Gettysburg had gone the South's way, so what? It's not like it would have affected the North's ability to wage war.<br /><br />Alternate histories are always speculation. But one scenario I've never seen described is a Southern victory at Gettysburg, followed by some kind of Carthaginian solution by an enraged North.sunbeamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16540822135478202229noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-74843973096430780322013-07-01T14:33:50.009-07:002013-07-01T14:33:50.009-07:00Oh, and I've started reading Time on The Cross...Oh, and I've started reading <i>Time on The Cross</i>, thanks to the proprietor.JeremiahJohnbalayanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-29792590936673379552013-07-01T14:30:32.907-07:002013-07-01T14:30:32.907-07:00Pat, let's talk historical fiction. Most inte...Pat, let's talk historical fiction. Most interesting recent example being Colleen mccullough's Rome books, on which I'm convinced HBO's <i>Rome</i> relied heavily. Which reminds me I have some other Roman stuff wish-listed in AmaZon.<br /><br />You mention Sharpe ... I got into the Sharpe seriesvia Netflix. How do the books compare to the Flashman series? I don't know anything about Cornwell, but Fraser is a legitimate scholar.<br /><br />(actually, now that I look at him, I may have read some of Cornwell's early Anglo-Saxon stuff)<br />JeremiahJohnbalayanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-53144084698479993652013-07-01T14:01:59.698-07:002013-07-01T14:01:59.698-07:00Suvorov was the other great general of the age, th...Suvorov was the other great general of the age, though his death in 1800 kind of removes him from the narrative.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-1915433149466640162013-07-01T13:25:34.767-07:002013-07-01T13:25:34.767-07:00Oh, and FWIW I think Wellington was ultimately a m...Oh, and FWIW I think Wellington was ultimately a much more skilled tactical commander than Napoleon was, but Napoleon was vastly more knowledgeable about the operational level of war, even as his strategic knowledge was so poor that he thought attacking Russia was a good idea.Inane Ramblernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-17867842686968537322013-07-01T13:23:01.678-07:002013-07-01T13:23:01.678-07:00My understanding is that while the Prussians ultim...My understanding is that while the Prussians ultimately finished off the French army, if Wellington's force hadn't held the line long enough for the Prussians to arrive, Napoleon would have turned against the Prussians and possibly won.<br /><br />If he had pulled that off, ultimately it wouldn't have mattered as the Russians and the Austrians were only several days away, and together they easily had the numbers to put Napoleon down.<br /><br />Let's not forget that it was Russia who ultimately destroyed the French Empire. Russia sent half a million soldiers into Germany.<br /><br />Despite the German attempt to pretend THEY won Waterloo, a significant portion of Blucher's army during the advance through Germany was actually Russian troops seconded to Prussian command.Inane Ramblernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-20132653813617912292013-07-01T11:10:55.317-07:002013-07-01T11:10:55.317-07:00"War, which used to be cruel and magnificent ...<i>"War, which used to be cruel and magnificent has now become cruel and squalid." - Winston Churchill</i><br /><br />That is another magnificent quote. He certainly had a gift for these things. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-18986195668369837322013-07-01T11:09:35.734-07:002013-07-01T11:09:35.734-07:00if they even notice them (which 99% of them won...<i>if they even notice them (which 99% of them won't), i imagine the future vibrant citizens of 2043 america utterly baffled as they watch these minority whites playing dress up and having fake little battles with their pop guns.</i><br /><br />What did the Revolutionary War mean to the children of some Sicilian or Russian immigrant that got off the boat in 1910? "White" is a modern American creation. Back in the 1840s, the Know Nothing Party was petrified of all the Irish Catholics coming off the boat. That they were white was not that relevant. Benjamin Franklin worried about German immigration etc. <br /><br />I am not saying race is irrelevant but acculturation and assimilation account for something. The children of swarthy Southern European immigrants came to identify with the history of what was predominantly an Anglo-Saxon country. Back in Europe, this would have been impossible given British opinions of the Italians or even North Italian opinions of South Italians. <br /><br />On the issue of "biology" do the Italians remember Roman battles fondly? They are biologically the same people as those that lived on the Italian peninsula under Julius Caesar but they couldn't care less. <br /><br />Countries, nations and peoples change and so does their history. I doubt that most white teenagers in America today read about Davy Crockett, the Alamo or that it means anything to them. They are still biologically the same people. The history of the civil war will go the same way because the people have changed - and I do not mean only biologically. How many British children today even know who the British were fighting at Rorke's Drift? Or in the Crimea? They are also biologically identical to the men who fought those battles. <br /><br />The fact that the new immigrants are racially different adds an additional layer of separation but even without it you can whitewash and change all of history with the same people.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-19666524496137856132013-07-01T11:08:29.229-07:002013-07-01T11:08:29.229-07:00The drama of Gettysburg was a function of the fish...The drama of Gettysburg was a function of the fish-hook shape of the Union line. The concavity allowed rapid reinforcement of the line at the point of Confederate attack and a series of just-in-the-nick of time counterattacks to drive back Confederate incursions.Dutch Boyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02687679491743923216noreply@blogger.com