tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post1627872424798166300..comments2024-03-27T18:24:19.683-07:00Comments on Steve Sailer: iSteve: "Bad Students, Not Bad Schools"Unknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger71125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-75377192551694005222011-01-03T20:17:26.757-08:002011-01-03T20:17:26.757-08:00I found the racist comments on this thread to be h...I found the racist comments on this thread to be hilarious:<br /><br />"Public schools have morphed into day care centers for the underclass which makes it very convenient for Latinas to birth 3 - 5 kids. However, they might consider a tubal ligation if they had to stay home supervising a tribe of underage hyperactive savages 24/7 x 365 AND provide breakfast and lunch to boot."<br /><br />I can only guess what color you are.<br /><br />I'm not posting to make excuses for anyone, but one thing i can say is that Public School should be an investment into our future workforce. With no jobs however, and no trade training in schools, the students have nothing to work towards, yet, they are set along on a path of subsidized failure by a government who uses the schools to create jobs rather than to educate. <br /><br />I live in NYC with a businesswoman chancellor who knows about as much about education as I know about Pluto.<br /><br />Minorities are USED to create educational staff jobs and then blamed for the countries economic shortfalls. That's the bottom line and as long as the racists continue to blame them - while China and india continue to uplift their people, America will continue to decline until it does go bankrupt and civil unrest does erupt.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00905869114075516201noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-24361378878830916532010-09-16T07:50:01.762-07:002010-09-16T07:50:01.762-07:00Bad students are caused by bad parenting.Bad students are caused by bad parenting.Richard A.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-59249747574123227592010-09-07T08:13:12.376-07:002010-09-07T08:13:12.376-07:00Yes, but this contradicts another fellow that Stev...<i>Yes, but this contradicts another fellow that Steve has found interesting: John Taylor Gatto.</i><br /><br />Gatto's son also has a lot of interesting things to say, but I understand his comments don't make it through moderation here.ben tillmannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-42483592046079283532010-09-01T11:43:27.546-07:002010-09-01T11:43:27.546-07:00Simpson's solution to the education quagmire- ...Simpson's solution to the education quagmire- sensible and effective- all it needs is a p.r. campaign to mainstream it-<br /><br />THOSE WHO SHOW MOST PROMISE THROUGH DEMONSTRATING THAT THEY BENEFIT FROM EDUCATION ARE PROVIDED MORE OF IT, THE MOST OF IT. OTHERS CAN SOLVE THEIR OWN PROBLEMS.<br /><br />http://wwwm.biz.tc/wwwm11.html<br /><br /><br /><br />"The aim in this arrangement of things would be primarily to find and to increase quality of life throughout our whole society, and attention would be especially concentrated on those who showed the most promise of quality. Our cultural heritage on its lowest levels and in its most elementary forms, we might well begin by setting before all alike (after the very manner desired by the proponents of “equal opportunity”), but from the start teachers would be trained to look for those who had responded to, and had made use of, what they had already received. Thus opportunity would be offered as a challenge, as a test, as a prize, and as a reward, all in one, to those who had shown signs of that rare and precious stuff of which quality, superiority, is made. From the lowest grades on, the rule would be, as Jesus put it, “To him that hath shall be given.” Let a youth first prove that he has taken advantage of what he has received, that he has thereby increased in mental and spiritual stature, before he is given any more! Thus will capability, and every manner of virtue, and every manner of genius, be lured out of young men and discovered not only to their teachers but to the young men themselves. Thus will they become aware of a life of their own taking shape within them, singling out a sure and definite direction, growing in vigor and sure-footedness, and making them increasingly conscious of a destiny. And the rare teacher will be at hand, the rare teacher for the rare youth, to feed him all that he can take. And for the youth who is one of the rarest of all, will be waiting one of the supreme teachers of the land."seviernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-48320331195791967052010-08-31T21:30:12.140-07:002010-08-31T21:30:12.140-07:00"-- or --
Maybe it's genetic."
Mayb..."-- or --<br />Maybe it's genetic."<br /><br />Maybe it is.Truthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17286755693955361308noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-56529852207372753522010-08-31T19:00:57.136-07:002010-08-31T19:00:57.136-07:00Curvaceous,
Your points about mental ages and the...Curvaceous,<br /><br />Your points about mental ages and their implications are all excellent. My issue was with the earlier poster who claimed the people with IQs of 79-80 can't learn the 3Rs under any circumstances. <br /><br />Another poster discussed getting 80 IQs through high school. Yes, a problem. Calls for a streamed curriculum focussing on memorizing basic facts and learning manual skills. And into the workforce at 16. (The utopian assumption here is that there will be jobs for such people.)<br /><br />Another poster claims that 80 IQs will never be able to solve a simple arithmetic word problem. If that's so, then my assumption that IQ 80 ~= mental age 12 must be wrong. In our current schools (possibly somewhat dumbed-down) we give those kinds of problems to 8- or 9-year-olds, don't we? Maybe he can provide a reference for that claim.<br /><br />People with IQs of 80 are not mentally retarded - though equally they're not the brightest lights on the Christmas tree.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-67397962540799539812010-08-31T13:08:56.252-07:002010-08-31T13:08:56.252-07:00Relevant to the question of whether it is schools/...Relevant to the question of whether it is schools/teachers or studentss is this interesting study of students who were randomized into different Chicago schools of differing alleged quality:<br /><br />Is Gaining Access to Selective Elementary Schools Gaining Ground? Evidence From Randomized Lotteries<br /> <br />Julie Berry Cullen, Brian A. Jacob<br /><br />NBER Working Paper No. 13443<br />Issued in September 2007<br /><br />In this paper, we examine whether expanded access to sought-after schools can improve academic achievement. The setting we study is the "open enrollment" system in the Chicago Public Schools (CPS). We use lottery data to avoid the critical issue of non-random selection of students into schools. Our analysis sample includes nearly 450 lotteries for kindergarten and first grade slots at 32 popular schools in 2000 and 2001. We track students for up to five years and examine outcomes such as standardized test scores, grade retention and special education placement. Comparing lottery winners and losers, we find that lottery winners attend higher quality schools as measured by both the average achievement level of peers in the school as well as by value-added indicators of the school's contribution to student learning. Yet, we do not find that winning a lottery systematically confers any evident academic benefits. We explore several possible explanations for our findings, including the possibility that the typical student may be choosing schools for non-academic reasons (e.g., safety, proximity) and/or may experience benefits along dimensions we are unable to measure, but find little evidence in favor of such explanations. Moreover, we separately examine effects for a variety of demographic subgroups, and for students whose application behavior suggests a strong preference for academics, but again find no significant effects.Billnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-88303326560559417482010-08-31T11:21:52.329-07:002010-08-31T11:21:52.329-07:00"By that standard, 80 IQ works out to a menta..."By that standard, 80 IQ works out to a mental age of 12-13 (an average 16yo being 100).<br /><br />Average 12-year-olds can learn the three Rs."<br /><br />That's true, but the average 12 year old will have a lot of trouble successfully completing a high school curriculum. If you look at the combined statistics for students dropping out or failing to graduate from a CA high school, the percentages by race are 35%, 25%, 11%, and 8% for blacks, Hispanics, Whites, and Asians, respectively. Assuming an IQ of 80 is the threshold for squeaking by, you would predict an average IQ of 85, 89, 98, and 101 for blacks, Hispanics, Whites, and Asians, respectively. Eerily similar to direct measurements, eh?<br /><br />Of course this also explains why you don't meet too many black or Hispanic engineering majors at the University of California. Fewer than 0.1% of blacks and 0.3% of Hispanics would be mentally qualified, and those that did would probably prefer going into banking, consulting, or some other money making profession. Engineering and science are intellectually challenging, and pay relatively little unless combined with entrepreneurial talent and effort.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-17572648507708900332010-08-31T08:53:33.089-07:002010-08-31T08:53:33.089-07:00"Moscow and Leningrad were pretty safe at nig..."Moscow and Leningrad were pretty safe at night."<br /><br />Well, except for roving rapists like Lavrenty Beria.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-39141647059688635202010-08-31T08:49:07.203-07:002010-08-31T08:49:07.203-07:00With extremely intensive instruction, you might be...<i>With extremely intensive instruction, you might be able to get them to memorize some basic addition tables...</i> <br /><br />Let me expound on that point.<br /><br />Even if, after months upon months of intensive instruction - flash card drills, computer software drills, singing/clapping/chanting/beating-of-the-tambourine drills, etc etc etc - even if you could get them to memorize the 100 [or, modulo commutativity, only the "10 choose 2"] different sums of the numbers from 1 to 10, they will never [and I mean <b>NEVER</b>] be able to apply that memorization to any sort of "word" [or "story"] problem.<br /><br />Not even if you could get them to the point where they could parrot the words in the word problem [which words, at IQ 80, they will never be capable of comprehending]:<br /> <br /> <br /><i>See Dick drop seven doggy treats on the floor by accident. See Spot scurry over and eat three of the doggy treats. See Jane pick up the remaining doggy treats before Spot can eat them. How many doggy treats does Jane now have?<br /><br />a) Jane has five doggy treats.<br /><br />b) Jane has three doggy treats.<br /><br />c) Jane has seven doggy treats.<br /><br />d) Jane has four doggy treats.<br /><br />e) Jane has two doggy treats.</i><br /> <br /> <br />At IQ 80, this will <b>NEVER</b> happen.<br /><br />And even out towards IQ 90-95, it's going to be a difficult problem in [societal-wide] pedagogy to figure out how to burn into their brains the ability to retain a strategy for tackling problems like this when they become adults who are a decade or more removed from formal edumakashun.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-22920452801453801752010-08-31T08:25:31.805-07:002010-08-31T08:25:31.805-07:00"They all explained the gap too..."
&qu..."They all explained the gap too..."<br /><br />"They all explained the gap too..."<br /><br />Maybe they all DO explain the gap--taken concurrently.."<br /><br />Aristotle thought the sun and planets revolve around the Earth. But then he realized it didn't explain everything. So he needed a few epicycles. Then a few more. Just a few more would do it, for sure. Just take them all concurrently, and everything is sort-of explained.<br /><br />One day Copernicus said, hm, maybe the Earth revolves around the sun.<br /><br />""They all explained the gap too..."<br /><br />"Maybe they all DO explain the gap--taken concurrently.."<br /> -- or --<br />Maybe it's genetic.Curvaceous, etc.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-53340676877260149282010-08-31T08:05:19.414-07:002010-08-31T08:05:19.414-07:00"By that standard, 80 IQ works out to a menta..."By that standard, 80 IQ works out to a mental age of 12-13 (an average 16yo being 100).<br /><br />Average 12-year-olds can learn the three Rs."<br /><br />Sure, when they get to BE 12. But in American schools populated by White kids, we don't teach reading at age 12. We teach it at age 6. <br />Those 80-IQ 6 year olds are mentally 4.8, and normal 4-year-olds can't be taught to read and add yet.<br /><br />So if we actually had the nerve to stare down the "disparate impact" howlers, we'd go ahead and track non-White children and just teach most of those kids just cutting and pasting and being read to until age 8 (mental age 6.5), and then go verrrry slowly, emphasizing decoding for several years. The dullards would be much happier for not having their limitations on display.<br />Sounds like a plan to me.<br /><br />Too bad non-White advocates say, perish the thought. Better they sit in White classrooms and make everyone sloooooowww down. <br /><br />Or, the other outcome. The 80-IQs at age 12 cannot read because everything has been over their heads the whole time. Because they're mad about it, they refuse to even try to do the 2nd grade work they now could master.Curvaceous, etc.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-49736086613701329912010-08-31T07:43:11.521-07:002010-08-31T07:43:11.521-07:00"They all explained the gap too..."
May..."They all explained the gap too..."<br /><br />Maybe they all DO explain the gap--taken concurrently.Truthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17286755693955361308noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-9509159155860570512010-08-31T07:04:56.602-07:002010-08-31T07:04:56.602-07:00"The cynics on this thread are trying to get ..."The cynics on this thread are trying to get you to realize that the very best teacher in the world can't teach Reading, 'Riting, nor 'Rithmetic to children with IQs of 79 or 80."<br /><br />Originally, IQ measured "mental age" versus real age. Admittedly, they don't calculate it that way anymore, but it works as an illustration.<br /><br />By that standard, 80 IQ works out to a mental age of 12-13 (an average 16yo being 100).<br /><br />Average 12-year-olds can learn the three Rs.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-74456075544833826652010-08-31T06:21:36.835-07:002010-08-31T06:21:36.835-07:00>Obviously the top of the society would not gen...>Obviously the top of the society would not generally [emigrate] [from the other side of the pond before the Potato Famine], but the bottom wouldn't either (it took both motivation and at least some free capital to [emigrate])<<br /><br />Motivation: we get put in prison if we stay. Free capital: a small number of men own a ship and need indentured servants. That's pretty close to the bottom.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-71712276644493397092010-08-31T04:18:45.613-07:002010-08-31T04:18:45.613-07:00Just completed "Race, Wrongs, and Remedies&qu...Just completed "Race, Wrongs, and Remedies" by Amy Wax. Its overall theme is that the only way that the gap between whites and blacks can be narrowed is by a change in black culture and that most of our 'programs' have had little effect.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-37798893052340869512010-08-30T23:07:21.037-07:002010-08-30T23:07:21.037-07:00"The commies were more benevolent than our ma..."The commies were more benevolent than our masters are. Except for the mass grave thing, heh."<br /><br />There is something to be said for keeping the state-imposed violence in the gulag rather than having it loose on the streets as we do. Moscow and Leningrad were pretty safe at night.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-76479910975402953332010-08-30T22:46:35.486-07:002010-08-30T22:46:35.486-07:00The chart shows the standard deviation difference ...The chart shows the standard deviation difference between blacks and whites at about 0.8. This seems kind of low, considering it is supposed to be 1.0. Plus, aren't there some Jews still in NYC public schools, therefore making the standard deviation GREATER than 1? Is it possible there has been "progress"?Jacknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-90343977496413923232010-08-30T21:38:25.135-07:002010-08-30T21:38:25.135-07:00We know the bad-teachers-cause-the-gap theory is a...We know the bad-teachers-cause-the-gap theory is a crock because of all the other theories which really going to explain it, finally after all.<br /><br />What happened to NAMs failing due to exposure to murder and gang related violnce?<br /><br />What happened to stereotype threat?<br /><br />What happened to fear-of-acting-white?<br /><br />What happened to racist teachers?<br /><br />What happened to racist teaching materials?<br /><br />What happened to segregation?<br /><br />They all explained the gap too, where is the unified theory that includes those? Seems to be an unspoken agreement that they werent the cause of the gap after all. In which case, where is the big public apology for all those dead ends we've been steered down.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-64549859506919032392010-08-30T21:24:22.282-07:002010-08-30T21:24:22.282-07:00"How about we outsource our feminists from th..."How about we outsource our feminists from the Evil White Male Patriarchy of America, so they can educate Indian women, and mentor them in their professional careers?"<br /><br /><br />Ha, ha, ha! I love it. Slap on a few buzz words and the feminist chicks would volunteer!<br /><br />Very cute.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-42748491665155611462010-08-30T20:59:07.596-07:002010-08-30T20:59:07.596-07:00Why do our rulers have an overbearing need to crea...<i>Why do our rulers have an overbearing need to create conformity? Stalin and Molotov shipped their non-conformers off to the gulag. Modern elites are happy to gulag-ize society in their quest to have a compliant, equalized society.</i><br /><br />Wow, great comparison. The commies were more benevolent than our masters are. Except for the mass grave thing, heh. But no sarcasm intended, great comparison; they can't send the undesirables off to the gulag so they turn the whole country into a gulag instead. It's the kind of thing that should be in the <i>Screwtape Letters</i>.Svigorhttp://majorityrights.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-59729204503203481712010-08-30T20:58:25.690-07:002010-08-30T20:58:25.690-07:00India is academically successful because it's ...India is academically successful because it's full of Indians, who tend to be the equivalent of East Asians in terms of their industriousness, conformity, and strong families. Not every child is smart, but the smart kids tend to work hard, get lots of parental support/pressure, and are rewarded with immense and prestige. <br /><br />Also, the mean Indian IQ is often reported as 80ish for the country. This is bull. The average level of competence is probably lower than in the West or the wealthy parts of East Asia, but it can't be too much lower. I know lots of Indo-Carribeans and Indo-Fijians whose ancestors were peasant laborers. While not particularly intellectual, they are quite a bit more cerebral than NAMS and seem about as competent as working class whites. <br /><br />Studies of non-selected Indian populations have found means IQs in the low 90s range. So I suppose that something like 92 or 93 makes sense for India, which isn't too low and puts most Indians in the normal IQ range. Given the population size and variance, there likely are also a lot of really smart high IQ people too. When you combine all that with the high degree of motivation, industriousness, parental/societal expectations, pro-education culturre, and the economic/social rewards...... well that's a good combination for producing lots of engineers, doctors, and programmers in India. <br /><br />Of course there's downside. For one thing, the level of innovation is not very high. Another problem woud be that students learn in a rote memorization fashion. Also, while the number of smart people is large, the bulk of the people are of medicore or sub-mediocre competence/skills. India is basically like China, more or less.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-61680000079383217422010-08-30T20:57:22.137-07:002010-08-30T20:57:22.137-07:00Is there good publicly available data that shows c...Is there good publicly available data that shows clearly how much of the variance in school test score performance can be explained by racial mix or SES of students? Certainly, around here, the good schools are mostly white/Asian, while the bad ones are mostly black/hispanic. <br /><br />This will surely vary with the difficulty of the tests. But while people always talk about this effect in terms of why it makes it hard to judge teachers by their kids' test scores, I never seem to see any hard numbers on this.none of the abovenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-22860859983883350572010-08-30T20:52:30.489-07:002010-08-30T20:52:30.489-07:00One question I have is where the impact of bad stu...One question I have is where the impact of bad students mainly comes from. Is it a smallish number of really badly behaved kids? Or a larger number of kids who just aren't learning the material? Anecdotally, the first set is often blamed for problems. And yet, it's not all that hard to solve that problem by expelling troublemakers. The second problem is much more intractable. I mean, if you've got a bunch of students reading on a 4th grade level, it's just going to be <i>hard</i> to get through <i>Macbeth</i>, even if the kids are doing their level best and behaving pretty well. <br /><br />There's an obvious overlap between these two problems. Take the average American and drop him into a graduate level class on number theory, and the poor bastard will fidget, look longingly out the window, ask to go to the bathroom six times an hour, chat with his friends, etc. Because what's going on on the blackboard and in the homework will just make no sense at all to him. ("What's with that fraction there? A Jacobi symbol? Wait, who's Jacobi? And what's he got to do with that fraction there?")none of the abovenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-88798293649721541012010-08-30T20:50:04.412-07:002010-08-30T20:50:04.412-07:00Yes, but this contradicts another fellow that Stev...Yes, but this contradicts another fellow that Steve has found interesting: John Taylor Gatto.<br /><br />I'm more in Gatto's camp, in that schools ARE bad, unfathomably bad, compared to what they should be. They teach nothing except following orders and propaganda.<br /><br />The reason people don't understand this is that they compare our supposed bad schools with our supposedly good schools, and find that the only difference is the students. True, but our supposedly good and bad schools both have terrible systems and many inept teachers, meaning that the good students can put shine to the sh*t.Paul DeRenonoreply@blogger.com