tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post2404591270446635465..comments2024-03-28T16:22:14.888-07:00Comments on Steve Sailer: iSteve: Boston Globe and Steven Durlauf on Putnam's diversity researchUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger50125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-50778297276250059242007-08-11T00:06:00.000-07:002007-08-11T00:06:00.000-07:00"It makes perfect sense to be rigorous - it does N..."It makes perfect sense to be rigorous - it does NOT make ANY sense to take liberals seriously in their pretended quest for same."<BR/><BR/>LOL. That sums it up nicely, Svigor.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-53597726632191130752007-08-10T12:54:00.000-07:002007-08-10T12:54:00.000-07:00"I am no liberal but correlation is not causation...."I am no liberal but correlation is not causation. Sometimes it's just random chance."<BR/><BR/>Sometimes correlation is just random chance. But sometimes it's not. Again, there is the notorious example of cigarettes and lung cancer. And since lung cancer only occurs in about a quarter of smokers, and lack of trust occurs in all, or almost all, situations where diverse populations are present, the correlation between diversity and trust is even stronger than that between cigarette smoking and lung cancer.<BR/><BR/>The philosopher David Hume had interesting things to say about the difficulty of proving cause and effect, or causation. He devised the following thought experiment: Imagine I ask you to demonstrate cause and effect. You pick up your pencil and let it drop to the desk. You say that the effect is the pencil hitting the desk, and gravity is the cause. Hume would reply, no, it's not cause and effect because it might not happen next time, and you can't prove it will. He would say that it's only association.<BR/><BR/>Disingenuous? Maybe. But it does illustrate the tremendous difficulties trying to show causation.<BR/><BR/>Again, sometimes correlation is enough.Matthew Dunnyveghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02271543259993468567noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-39098723839090384432007-08-10T11:39:00.000-07:002007-08-10T11:39:00.000-07:00Meaningless Coefficient:You are, of course, right ...Meaningless Coefficient:<BR/><BR/>You are, of course, right technically speaking. But there's a side to this that I'm sure you too have noticed. It's like the "screaming fire in a theater" argument to defend limits on free speech: five minutes into the debate, you hear it.<BR/><BR/>The trouble with this technical distinction:<BR/><BR/>i) although not all correlation is causation, all causation *has* to be correlation one way or another.<BR/><BR/>ii) correlating height with say engineering success in Sweden may yield the funny results you mention, but let's face it, human existence being what it is -- having to survive on scarce resources which in the case of scientific investigation really really scarce -- we don't have the option to test a gazillion possibilities.<BR/><BR/>For instance, although hitting your head against a sharp object may cause bleeding, this, due to i above, is also a correlation -- head hittings against sharp objects will be strongly correlated with head bleedings. Now, with all due respect to your academic hygiene, it is moronic to come up with a "hey, heads may bleed due to many exotic reasons; crows, which are attracted to shiny things and therefore may pick up some shiny and sharp objects, may drop them from the air to passers-by, and cause bleedings; let's not rush to conclusion that it is because of carelessness on the part of the the head bearers" argument. The likelihood of this event is so infinitesimally small compared to people simply hitting their heads against say doors, it is pointless to include that "control" in your study.<BR/><BR/>And this is where the whole pain-in-the-ass liberals come in. It is idiotic to even pretend that people are oblivious to danger/safety concerns (trust being an "inter-personal safety" issue) when they choose their habitat. It is their first and foremost criterion in choosing a location as their living quarters -- or else people living in a Honduran jungle, the Mojave desert, and Minnesota would all be roughly equal.<BR/><BR/>And yet, this mister is raising this objection as if it is only a very distant possibility that people of English/Scots-Irish/Dutch/German/Scandinavian-American origin may find people from say Somali, Afghanistan, or Benghal not entirely trust-inspiring -- or vice versa. This is intellectual hypocrisy, to say the least. At worst, it is ideological pig-headedness.<BR/><BR/><BR/>JDAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-4673295077854790622007-08-10T09:21:00.000-07:002007-08-10T09:21:00.000-07:00When I was in college (Reed, early 1960's) stealin...<I> When I was in college (Reed, early 1960's) stealing and other sorts of anti-social behavior were not unknown, despite the fact that it was an over-whelmingly white, upper middle-class high IQ community. </I><BR/><BR/>An infamously hippy dippy lieberal college. It's possible that you're the only Reed man in the Chatt. area. Did you grow up in TN?<BR/><BR/><I> ... OTH there are white lower-class areas near downtown Chattanooga where only a fool would not lock his door. </I><BR/><BR/>Have you ever lived in those parts of town, or do you just know this from hearsay?<BR/><BR/><BR/><I> ..Was age the key? Maybe. Anonymous big cities will have trust problems no matter the ethnicity. Multi-racial small towns with a stable population might not, depending on certain cultural variables. ... </I><BR/><BR/>My eyes are getting heavy, so drowsy ... Is that taken from a Gannett newspaper op-ed. piece? ... Z-z-z-z-z. Snore.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-64657900283408532622007-08-10T07:47:00.000-07:002007-08-10T07:47:00.000-07:00“Also, I don't think that that there is any reason...“Also, I don't think that that there is any reason why folks on the left should be put off if Putnam's claim about the effect of integration on attitudes is true. One reason is that the defense for many race-related policies (I am thinking of policies whose advocates regard them as promoting integration, and I would include affirmative action in this category) is based on ethical considerations for which the validity of Putnam's claim has little import as these considerations (if valid) trump side effects of the type Putnam suggests can occur.”<BR/><BR/>This quote from Durlauf would indicate that the real dispute is not whose since is more accurate. Rather, it’s whose morality do you agree with.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-81520828149413476382007-08-10T07:27:00.000-07:002007-08-10T07:27:00.000-07:00: I agree that people should go into research meth...<B>:</B> <I>I agree that people should go into research methods and offer alternative studies if they refute some assertion but correlation vs causation is crucial to scientific though not necessarily mathematical thinking.</I><BR/><BR/>The problem is that The Left only ever drags out the "correlation -vs- causation" bullshit when the correlation coefficient is to their disadvantage. When it's to their advantage, you'll never hear so much as a peep out of them.<BR/><BR/>"Correlation -vs- Causation" is just 21st century Ad Hominem, nothing less.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-58547579181840686712007-08-10T07:17:00.000-07:002007-08-10T07:17:00.000-07:00Korea, Japan, Singapore, Germany, Finalnd: all are...<I>Korea, Japan, Singapore, Germany, Finalnd: all are ethnically homogeneous and all have extremely successful, modern, high-tech economies.</I><BR/><BR/>Minor nit: Singapore is not ethnically homogeneous. Germany is becoming less so.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-18726935468491242202007-08-10T05:38:00.000-07:002007-08-10T05:38:00.000-07:00I am no liberal but correlation is not causation.I...<I>I am no liberal but correlation is not causation.</I><BR/><BR/>I certainly didn't mean to imply that correlation is causation, or that thinking it isn't makes one a liberal.<BR/><BR/>My point was just that liberals don't give a damn about rigor until it serves their purposes. Also, their fair-weather rigor is somewhat less than rigorous, since they throw out any sense of balance in these cases (common sense, predictive power, parsimony, etc.) and zoom in on one aspect. The clear implication is that they're playing semantic games - that the proof they want cannot exist.<BR/><BR/>A great many of your theoretical height correlations would no doubt make no sense, have no predictive power, etc. "Group differences in behavioral genetics are a big part of group differences in outcome" makes perfect sense, has predictive power, is far more parsimonious than liberalism's answers, etc.<BR/><BR/>It makes perfect sense to be rigorous - it does NOT make ANY sense to take liberals seriously in their pretended quest for same.Svigorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09397917915404344439noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-92160355376081700902007-08-10T05:36:00.000-07:002007-08-10T05:36:00.000-07:00Luke said:"The general welfare (economically), the...Luke said:<BR/><BR/>"The general welfare (economically), the idea of human equality, democratic norms, love of country -- these are more important considerations, at least for me."<BR/><BR/>This must be why you live in an "upper-middle class white" neighborhood "in a small southern town outside Chattanooga." Those ideals have viability there.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-53733827253900493972007-08-10T03:55:00.000-07:002007-08-10T03:55:00.000-07:00Americans really are getting shorter though =) Ch...Americans really are getting shorter though =) Check out these charts for white and black men:<BR/><BR/>http://halls.md/chart/men-height-w.htm<BR/><BR/>http://halls.md/chart/men-height-b.htm<BR/><BR/>The tallest men are in the 35-45 age group, which is too far to the right to be explained by the younger men not being fully grown yet. Though the change seems to appear only for men. There could be some sort of sampling error involved, such as short men being more or less likely to be in the army or prisons, but I dont think the effect could be that noticeable.Stopped Clockhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18155709284859187212noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-86082136844033333372007-08-10T00:07:00.000-07:002007-08-10T00:07:00.000-07:00Korea, Japan, Singapore, Germany, Finalnd: all are...Korea, Japan, Singapore, Germany, Finalnd: all are ethnically homogeneous and all have extremely successful, modern, high-tech economies.<BR/><BR/>And Dick Florida? Is that gay...er, guy still around? 5 years ago he was everywhere. I haven't seen him, or heard a politician quote him, since 2004.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-76814108753471716442007-08-09T19:58:00.000-07:002007-08-09T19:58:00.000-07:00Svigor,I am no liberal but correlation is not caus...Svigor,<BR/><BR/>I am no liberal but correlation is not causation. Sometimes it's just random chance. For instance, if you did a study in Sweden where I hear people are tall, you could likely correlate height with anything you are measuring but the correlation would be meaningless. Also, you should think this way next time you read an article about how US children are shrinking. Who's moving in at a rate of thousands per year, short Mexican people who will no doubt have children who are much shorter than the average Swede no matter what you feed them.<BR/><BR/>I agree that people should go into research methods and offer alternative studies if they refute some assertion but correlation vs causation is crucial to scientific though not necessarily mathematical thinking. Let's not label it as a tool for liberal propagandizing please. I've designed a few research studies for classes and keeping this distinction in mind helped me be more critical of results. And yes you are supposed to be critical of results hopefully striving for the elusive, unobtainable goal of pure objectivity.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-76817256467265151662007-08-09T17:27:00.000-07:002007-08-09T17:27:00.000-07:00Many things effect trust besides diversity. E.g.,...Many things effect trust besides diversity. E.g., I live in a n neighborhood where it isn't necessary to lock one's doors when you go out. Why? Well, it is upper-middle class white, and I live in a small southern town outside Chattanooga. OTH there are white lower-class areas near downtown Chattanooga where only a fool would not lock his door. Does that mean class is decisive? Not necessarily. When I was in college (Reed, early 1960's) stealing and other sorts of anti-social behavior were not unknown, despite the fact that it was an over-whelmingly white, upper middle-class high IQ community. Was age the key? Maybe. Anonymous big cities will have trust problems no matter the ethnicity. Multi-racial small towns with a stable population might not, depending on certain cultural variables.<BR/><BR/>So I think the trust angle is not the crucial one in so far as the question of whether large-scale immigration is good for America. The general welfare (economically), the idea of human equality, democratic norms, love of country -- these are more important considerations, at least for me.Luke Leahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11290760894780619646noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-55680059223019293682007-08-09T16:11:00.000-07:002007-08-09T16:11:00.000-07:00I'm thinking of all the twenty-somethings who move...I'm thinking of all the twenty-somethings who move to the big city because they were alienated and freakish in their small home town and so would prefer to live where people have no need to judge each other because their lives are not as interdependent, etc. you know where I'm going. Same for gays. It is a sort of chicken or egg thing.Jameshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05758584002044225327noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-37212408330248285182007-08-09T15:57:00.000-07:002007-08-09T15:57:00.000-07:00causation has never been established between cigar...<I>causation has never been established between cigarette smoking and lung cancer. But there is an overwhelmingly strong correlation between the two.</I><BR/><BR/>Thanks for reminding me; liberals always amuse me with their "correlation is not causation" thing. The truth of that NEVER matters to liberals, until it comes down to conservatives or HBD-types and race.<BR/><BR/>Poverty causes crime. All liberals know this. "Correlation isn't causation? What's that supposed to mean?"<BR/><BR/>Liberal intellectuals never want proof for anything, unless they're opposed to it. Welfare? Where's the proof it works? Global warming? Where's the proof man is involved? Human equality - 'nuff said.<BR/><BR/>Liberals NEVER prove anything they say, or that anything they try will work. Suddenly, when someone comes up with an idea that challenges received liberal wisdom, they get all intellectually rigorous on yo ass.<BR/><BR/>Another tickler is how they condemn HBD-types for their turpitude and attack their methods and conclusions, but they never want to get to the bottom of the matter. They never suggest more research is in order, or take up the challenge to provide better explanations.Svigorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09397917915404344439noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-50517400285561665852007-08-09T15:25:00.000-07:002007-08-09T15:25:00.000-07:00If your friend Steven considers that "ranting", he...If your friend Steven considers that "ranting", he seems like a quite mild-mannered fellow. <BR/><BR/>Regarding the benefits of diversity with respect to engineers, I'm guessing the most important thing is to hire the best engineers you can find, whatever their ethnic background (obviously, you will end up mainly with whites, South Asians, and Northeast Asians). All things being equal, I doubt that ethnic diversity adds a lot to engineering. <BR/><BR/>One example from personal experience working at a financial Internet start-up: The founder was an MIT-educated WASP tech dork, the chief engineer/techie was an Indian tech dork, and the rest of the tech staff included a Polish-American female tech dork, a Chinese tech dork, more Indian tech dorks, etc. Never did I see or hear of any problem solved or feature created that was the result of cross-cultural pollination among the members of this group. <BR/><BR/>The only benefit I can see from a diverse group of engineers versus a homogeneous one is networking -- maybe you can get some quality hires before your competitors by tapping into your Finnish or Japanese engineer's personal network in the old country. <BR/><BR/>BTW, after the WASP tech dork/founder was forced out of the CEO role by the venture capitalists (all white, btw), he started a new venture: using his Indian contacts to start an IT offshoring business.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-59426577545779611272007-08-09T15:02:00.000-07:002007-08-09T15:02:00.000-07:00Also take a look a the vid for the Big Dog four-le...Also take a look a the vid for the Big Dog four-legged robot. It's real Star Wars stuff: <BR/><BR/>http://www.bostondynamics.com/content/sec.php?section=BigDog<BR/><BR/>Won't be long at all until Mexicans and other 3td World laborers are almost totally superfluous useless eaters.<BR/><BR/>Not a very Christian thought.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-77686413799717136102007-08-09T14:55:00.000-07:002007-08-09T14:55:00.000-07:00Steve Sailor: For example, we don't know what the ...<B>Steve Sailor:</B> <I>For example, we don't know what the results of the current massive unskilled immigration will be, so it would seem reasonable to cut back on it: the potential upside is limited and potential downside is much larger, so why do it?</I><BR/><BR/><B>Svigor:</B> [sarcastically] <I>What's so bad about letting supply and demand determine wages, and what's so great about state-sponsored labor dumping?</I><BR/><BR/>You know, while I agree with you guys that the situation for lower-IQ white guys must be hell on earth right now, watching their wage base eroded down into poverty status, what with this influx of cheap Mexican labor, all other things being equal, it's not the labor problems [per se] which bother me.<BR/><BR/>It's the fact that eventually all of these Mexicans are going to get the right to vote [whether by hook or by crook], and I know of no evidence whatsoever that they will ever choose to vote for limited government & the rule of law.<BR/><BR/>Rather, all the evidence I've ever seen indicates that they're going to vote a straight party-line ticket for Marxist-Fascism.<BR/><BR/>I.e. in my mind, as a societal dilemma, the economics of the thing are vastly inferior to the politics of it.<BR/><BR/>We've got a huge, vibrant, growing economy, and we can afford to absorb just about anyone who wants to come here to work.<BR/><BR/>What we can't afford to absorb are any more votes for Marxist-Fascism.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-6069328477378590602007-08-09T14:50:00.000-07:002007-08-09T14:50:00.000-07:00One possible economic benefit to high-racial-diver...<I>One possible economic benefit to high-racial-diversity cities is that having an "underclass" is useful.</I><BR/><BR/>If that's true, why did the Northern states technically and economically outpace the slave-owning southern American states by the 1860's?<BR/><BR/>If that's true, why aren't Latin American countries more successful?<BR/><BR/>I suppose it depend's on one's defintion of useful. Having lots of les proles miserables helps a top class lord it over the middling classes.<BR/><BR/>Oh, check out this video on the Japanese dancing robot. It's quite life-like. Probably won't be too long till they get that robot to sweep the floor and clean toilets.<BR/><BR/>http://staff.aist.go.jp/s.nakaoka/movies/BandaisanHRP-2.mpgAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-84469251591472488492007-08-09T14:42:00.000-07:002007-08-09T14:42:00.000-07:00Hemlock: There are those on the conspiratorially-m...<B>Hemlock:</B> <I>There are those on the conspiratorially-minded Right (who, me?!), who think the whole point of the Left's promotion of mass immigration and multiculturalism is the destruction of traditional sources of social capital, leaving the State ready to the fill the vacuum.</I><BR/><BR/>Nahh - ya think?<BR/><BR/>/sarcasmAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-16756039710352876782007-08-09T14:38:00.000-07:002007-08-09T14:38:00.000-07:00"The difficulty in moving from a correlation betwe..."The difficulty in moving from a correlation between individual attitudes and neighborhood ethnic diversity to a causal statement that neighborhood diversity affects individual attitudes is that one needs to appropriately control for the possibility that individuals located in different neighborhoods may systematically differ with respect to various characteristics that affect attitudes. Putnam fails to control for these potential differences in anything approaching a statistically adequate way."<BR/><BR/>If a lack of trust is correlated with diversity in all known instances, then establishing causality is not necessary. And control of variables is only necessary for quantitative and qualitative considerations.<BR/><BR/>To the best of my knowledge, causation has never been established between cigarette smoking and lung cancer. But there is an overwhelmingly strong correlation between the two.<BR/><BR/>No less a thinker than Aristotle admonished us not to demand more precision from a particular discipline than it is capable of rendering. And the social sciences can be notoriously imprecise.<BR/><BR/>Sometimes correlation is good enough.Matthew Dunnyveghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02271543259993468567noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-68181313717846303292007-08-09T14:36:00.000-07:002007-08-09T14:36:00.000-07:00tommy: Unlike most of my peers, I attended three d...<B>tommy:</B> <I>Unlike most of my peers, I attended three different high schools. Two of them were very different... Most boomers are clueless and most kids cannot perceive something is wrong when they've never known anything different.</I><BR/><BR/>My nephew was in a public school kindergarten which had a huge minority presence [upwards of 50% minority - black and hispanic], then his family moved to another state, and he started first grade at an exclusive private school.<BR/><BR/>The first thing that he said to my sister was [quite literally] "Mom, the kids in this new school are all quiet and they sit still and they pay attention!"<BR/><BR/>PS: And these are both very exclusive university towns, with very high mean incomes & very high education levels.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-78741637335279913152007-08-09T14:19:00.000-07:002007-08-09T14:19:00.000-07:00One possible economic benefit to high-racial-diver...<I>One possible economic benefit to high-racial-diversity cities is that having an "underclass" is useful.</I><BR/><BR/>I know nothing of economics. That said, I just don't follow the logic here. Sounds like robbing Peter to pay Paul (or selling the rope your customer plans to hang you with, take your pick of analogies).<BR/><BR/>What's so wonderful about depressing wages for low skill jobs by importing slav- er, I mean scabs?<BR/><BR/>What's so bad about letting supply and demand determine wages, and what's so great about state-sponsored labor dumping?Svigorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09397917915404344439noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-58993136023344136462007-08-09T14:09:00.000-07:002007-08-09T14:09:00.000-07:00I support some forms of affirmative action for Afr...<I>I support some forms of affirmative action for African Americans with American decent as a form of reparations, but I would also acknowledge the costs</I><BR/><BR/>Reparations for what? Making African-Americans the wealthiest group of SSAs in the world (ballpark of 50 times SSA wealth)? Enfranchising them into a civil society, something SSAs seem largely incapable of on their own? Ever wondered how many African-Americans alive today would never have existed without the transatlantic trade?<BR/><BR/>The idea of reparations for African-Americans is like the idea of paying someone for his pain and suffering upon winning the lottery.<BR/><BR/>See here:<BR/><BR/>http://www.success-and-culture.net/articles/recip.shtml<BR/><BR/>As the author notes, looks like they've already gotten their reparations.Svigorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09397917915404344439noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-27145792066052934552007-08-09T13:29:00.000-07:002007-08-09T13:29:00.000-07:00Racial diversity does increase innovation. If by d...Racial diversity does increase innovation. If by diversifying we mean increasing the hegemony of whites. If we mean the reverse (decreasing the hegemony of whites relative to that of nonwhites), then the opposite effect is observed. A little concomitant learning will reveal the continents of evidence for this.<BR/><BR/>Also note an equivocation on "diversity." The bait-and-switch goes like this: surely you don't deny the evidence that a healthy, growing economy or science depends upon a multiplicity of ideas and viewpoints? (Diversity of ideas.) Therefore, you must agree that reducing the ratio of whites in any system will improve it. (Diversity of race.) It's a non-sequiter (so even the reverse of it isn't true).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com