tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post4357522815232729843..comments2024-03-28T16:22:14.888-07:00Comments on Steve Sailer: iSteve: Jewish Daily Forward: "Jews Are a 'Race,' Genes Reveal"Unknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger101125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-8727672707593437832012-05-11T21:35:28.706-07:002012-05-11T21:35:28.706-07:00Matthew,
That 20% Neolithic ancestry figure may tu...Matthew,<br />That 20% Neolithic ancestry figure may turn out to be inaccurate. It is largely based on early Y-chromosome research from a decade ago, and recent developments in ancient DNA research have made it hotly debated. The most common Y-haplogroup in Western Europe may be a relatively recent entrant to Europe, and if one believes the link between R1a and the Indo-Europeans, it also may be a relatively recent entrant. Dienekes Pontikos has summarized some of the more recent papers at his blog.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-55180319704479951882012-05-10T00:34:39.307-07:002012-05-10T00:34:39.307-07:00That's probably true. But it's a very diff...<b>That's probably true. But it's a very different thing from being "direct lineal descendants".</b><br /><br />No, you are a lineal descendant of anyone who is your ancestor - whether he's your grandfather or your 1200th great-grandfather. You probably don't inherit any DNA from a man by virtue of being his 1200th great-grandson - you inherit it by virtue of being his 1200th great-grandson along literally trillions (trillions of trillions) of lines.<br /><br />The modern population of Europe is primarily descended (probably ~80%) from populations who outlasted the last glacial maximum in Southern and Eastern European refugia. The amount contributed by Neolithic farmers, who arrived 6000-8000 years ago, not 3000 years ago - is around 20%, at most. This figure, of course, excludes the current invaders to whom Europeans are so joyfully surrendering their patrimony.Matthewnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-2733443783751141112012-05-09T20:25:48.213-07:002012-05-09T20:25:48.213-07:00"The oft-repeated claim on HBD blogs about th..."The oft-repeated claim on HBD blogs about there being a "30-50% genetic admixture between Jews and Europeans" is meaningless gibberish."<br /><br />Anyone with a solid biological science background, including the popular HBD and population genetics bloggers, is aware that all human populations are very similar genetically. However, the variation between populations is still significant as proven by the British geneticist A.W.F. Edwards in opposition to Lewontin's claims. When enough markers that characterize population difference are known, they can be used to predict to what population group an individual belongs. When an admixture statement is made, it essentially means that the admixed group is roughly that proportion more similar (above baseline similarity) to one of its respective parent populations than the parent populations are to each other. <br /><br />The Euroepean admixture range for the Roman Empire-influenced cluster of Jewish populations (Ashkenazi, Sephardic, Syrian) established in the Atzmon paper was 30-60% with the inference that the Ashkenazim are the most admixed of that group. I posted a link in this discussion thread to one of the GNXP posts where Razib Kahn stated (in the comments) that in his experience with the autosomal genotype data, the European admixture among Ashkenazim tended to be close to 50% and is predominantly southern European rather than northern European.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-78526215098271466582012-05-09T18:30:27.534-07:002012-05-09T18:30:27.534-07:00Probably half the world (or more) is descended fro...<i>Probably half the world (or more) is descended from the men who painted Chauvet, Lascaux, and Altamira.</i> <br /> <br /><br />That's probably true. But it's a very different thing from being "direct lineal descendants".<br /><br />We all have very large numbers of ancestors. If you go back far enough all sorts of people have at least one ancestor who belongs to a surprising group of people - Obama's Irish connection is an example. In some sense it is correct to say that he has "Irish ancestry". But it's a truth which omits a great deal.<br /><br />You and I are descended from the painters of Chauvet in the same sense that Obama is descended from the Irish. A little bit, but not much.<br /><br /><br /><i>when the Saxons and Celts arrived...there were people already there. A people they did not eliminate, by any means. As proven by Cheddar Man's DNA analysis.</i> <br /><br /><br />About 10% of the population of Europe carry haplogroup U5, the one which Cheddar Man has. So you can say that they are not "eliminated".<br /><br /><br /><i>There was early (Jewish) admixture with the European population, by various estimates anywhere from 30-50%</i> <br /> <br /><br /><br />30-50% of what? Genes are not all created equal. Blacks and whites share a hell of a lot more than "30-50%" of their genes - it's the fraction of one percent which makes the difference. <br /><br />The oft-repeated claim on HBD blogs about there being a "30-50% genetic admixture between Jews and Europeans" is meaningless gibberish. Anglo-Saxons and European Jews share 99.999something percent of their genetic material. Including the genetic material controlling appearance and intelligence.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-28138585799308597882012-05-09T17:28:42.615-07:002012-05-09T17:28:42.615-07:00"The Indo-European language groups spread out...<b>"The Indo-European language groups spread out from the region near present-day Iran about 3000 years ago."</b><br /><br />4500 years ago, minimum. But as the fact that so many blacks, Hispanics, and Asians now speak English attests (not to mention European-Americans of every ethnic background), spoken language isn't inherited genetically.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-49308649102145925682012-05-09T17:21:10.707-07:002012-05-09T17:21:10.707-07:00"The Angles and Saxons arrived in what became...<b>"The Angles and Saxons arrived in what became England after 400 AD...In other words, the English and Irish arrived in those countries a little less than two thousand years ago."</b><br /><br />And when the Saxons and Celts arrived...there were people already there. A people they did not eliminate, by any means. As proven by Cheddar Man's DNA analysis.<br /><br />Further, where the hell do you think the Saxons and Celts were living before they arrived in Britain? Did they fly in from Damascus on a 747? There were living in Europe, as they had been for millenia.<br /><br />A very large fraction of the ancestors of the present-day British were living in Britain 9,000 years ago. An overwhelming majority of them were living in Britain or Europe nine and possibly even thirty thousand years ago.<br /><br /><br /><b>"The notion that the modern French are the direct lineal descendants of the people who painted the caves at Chauvet is every bit as silly...</b><br /><br />Probably half the world (or more) is descended from the men who painted Chauvet, Lascaux, and Altamira. Even most/all Chinamen probably have few lines going back to Chauvet. The French probably inherit a very large fraction of their DNA from these men.<br /><br /><b>"Are you blind?"</b><br /><br />Jews have been living in Europe for 2,000 years. There was early admixture with the European population, by various estimates anywhere from 30-50%. To go with this admixture they've had 70+ generations of various selective pressures to effect their appearance: lighter skin for more northern climes, the benefits of looking less foreign and more like the natives, etc.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-38469018000889081112012-05-09T15:04:46.521-07:002012-05-09T15:04:46.521-07:00Are you blind?
Northern European Jew Jerry Br...<i>Are you blind?</i> <br /> <br /><br /><br />Northern European Jew <a href="http://www.zap2it.com/media/photo/2007-08/31906485.jpg?title=Jerry+Bruckheimer" rel="nofollow">Jerry Bruckheimer.</a> <br /><br />Northern European (non-Jew) <a href="http://www.exposay.com/celebrity-photos/boris-becker-laureus-gokart-project-launch-1rsVWK.jpg" rel="nofollow">Boris Becker.</a> <br /><br /><br />Are <i>you</i> blind?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-67640469759318452492012-05-09T13:48:49.401-07:002012-05-09T13:48:49.401-07:00"Northern Europeans do not look distinctively..."Northern Europeans do not look distinctively different from Northern European Jews, who supposedly are "from" the Middle East."<br /><br />Are you blind?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-37205606794027352492012-05-09T11:20:46.897-07:002012-05-09T11:20:46.897-07:00Your timing is way off. Your ancestors have been i...<i>Your timing is way off. Your ancestors have been in Europe for at least 10,000 years and likely far more than that.</i> <br /> <br /><br /><br />You are mistaken. It's true that there are signs of human habitation in Europe dating back that far, but they are not us. And by "us" and I mean you and me.<br /><br />The Indo-European language groups spread out from the region near present-day Iran about 3000 years ago. You should read up on the Kurgan hypothesis. (No connection to the Highlander movies!)<br /><br /><br />http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurgan_hypothesis<br /><br />There's some interesting genetics information at the link as well.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-57651907734910816562012-05-09T10:57:32.629-07:002012-05-09T10:57:32.629-07:00By the 18th century, the average German or East Eu...<i>By the 18th century, the average German or East European Jew made his living as a small-time trader and was quite poor.</i> <br /><br /><br />"Quite poor" compared to who? Certainly not compared to the average Central European.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-50042219664149732912012-05-09T10:55:17.361-07:002012-05-09T10:55:17.361-07:00The cave paintings at Chauvet are ~30,000 years ol...<i>The cave paintings at Chauvet are ~30,000 years old.</i> <br /><br /><br />The notion that the modern French are the direct lineal descendants of the people who painted the caves at Chauvet is every bit as silly as the Jewish fantasy that Steven Spielberg is the lineal descendant of the Jews of King David's time.<br /><br />The correct response to silly Jewish myth-making is to point out that it is silly Jewish myth-making, not to engage in similar nonsense ourselves.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-91897392928232754222012-05-09T10:38:55.090-07:002012-05-09T10:38:55.090-07:00Your timeline is way off. A good fraction of the p...<i>Your timeline is way off. A good fraction of the population of the Isles is descended from people who arrived not long after the beginning of the Holocene, ca 11,000 years ago</i> <br /> <br /><br /><br />The Angles and Saxons arrived in what became England after 400 AD. The Celts arrived in Ireland about 2000 years ago.<br /><br />In other words, the English and Irish arrived in those countries a little less than two thousand years ago.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-25785992971699723192012-05-09T08:22:27.502-07:002012-05-09T08:22:27.502-07:00"By the 18th century, the average German or E...<i>"By the 18th century, the average German or East European Jew...was quite poor."</i><br /><br />Right. And everyone else in Europe at the time was rich rich rich!<br /><br />As I said, it's not that the Jews didn't have it hard - it's that everyone else did, too. Overall the life of Jews in Europe was no worse, and probably better.<br /><br />And the whining about pogroms demonstrates a bad intellectual habit of some Jews: tossing every non-Jewish person into the generic "not Jewish" category. Every European "gentile" is held accountable for pogroms occurring only in Russia. "Don't blame our ancestors for killing Christ [and I don't], but we'll blame everyone for the occasional pogrom, whether his ancestors participated or not."<br /><br />My ancestors came overhwhelmingly from Britain. Not any pogroms there for over 700 years.<br /><br />There was a discussion about Denmark and its immigration policy where some Jewish figure proclaimed that Denmark doesn't need to protect its culture and identity, because there are lots of other gentile, Christian countries besides just Denmark - as if the Danes had no unique identity and no right to preserve it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-82299337461275010422012-05-08T22:08:10.399-07:002012-05-08T22:08:10.399-07:00"Of course the English and Irish did not spri...<b>"Of course the English and Irish did not spring up from the soil in England and Ireland. They arrived in those countries a little less than 2000 years ago. Go back 3000+ years and they, like all Europeans, originated in the Middle East."</b><br /><br />Your timeline is way off. A good fraction of the population of the Isles is descended from people who arrived not long after the beginning of the Holocene, ca 11,000 years ago. Many of their ancestors were living in Europe tens of thousands of years before then. Even those who settled in Britain later - like the Saxons, Vikings, and Normans - were descended from ancient European populations.<br /><br />Those who brought agriculture from the Middle East in the last 10,000 years form only a small share of the ancestry of Europeans.<br /><br />The cave paintings at Chauvet are ~30,000 years old. Those at Lascaux (and hundreds of others like it) are ~17,000 years old or more. Europe has been well settled for quite some time. Cheddar Man, who lived in Britain ca. 9,100 years ago, has been found through DNA analysis to have three "relatives" (from just 20 tested) living in the village where he died.<br /><br />There's a reason Europeans (Northern Europeans especially) have a look very distinctive from that of anyone else, including those from the Middle East, and it's not because they arrived in Europe just yesterday.Matthewnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-44159394275497092342012-05-08T20:44:10.446-07:002012-05-08T20:44:10.446-07:00"Life wasn't miserable for Jews. They wer..."Life wasn't miserable for Jews. They were granted almost exclusive access to a profession that even today is still the most profitable of all - finance."<br /><br />Medieval finance amounted mostly to tax farming and small-time lending that made the practitioners extremely unpopular with the people from whom they collected taxes and who owed them debts. Moreover, lending at interest was heavily stigmatized by the Church, and the profits were punishingly taxed by the potentates. <br /><br />As for being "forced into the professions," only a tiny fraction of pre-emancipation European Jews worked in medicine. They were barred from practicing law and barred from the trade guilds. By the 18th century, the average German or East European Jew made his living as a small-time trader and was quite poor.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-83973270190788389022012-05-08T20:35:44.174-07:002012-05-08T20:35:44.174-07:00Anonymous 1:47 P.M. wrote:
"there isn't ...Anonymous 1:47 P.M. wrote:<br /><br />"there isn't one little piece of genetic code which says 'your ancestors came from here'."<br /><br />I am well aware of this. However, genetic markers are useful for inferring ancestry because they are found in different proportions in different groups. In the caes of uniparental haplogroups defined by characteristic mutations, it is also possible to make (admittedly imperfect) inferences about likely region of origin for the mutations and to infer patterns of migration. Estimating age of mutations is trickier, hence the wide variability seen in the studies.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-29297792048994890492012-05-08T16:20:53.434-07:002012-05-08T16:20:53.434-07:00Of course the English and Irish did not spring up ...<i>Of course the English and Irish did not spring up from the soil in England and Ireland. They arrived in those countries a little less than 2000 years ago. Go back 3000+ years and they, like all Europeans, originated in the Middle East. </i><br /><br />Your timing is way off. Your ancestors have been in Europe for at least 10,000 years and likely far more than that.IHTGhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13543091238926738309noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-50642772283569831562012-05-08T13:47:26.724-07:002012-05-08T13:47:26.724-07:00it follows that Y-chromosome markers would show mo...<i>it follows that Y-chromosome markers would show more fidelity to the location of ethnogenesis and therefore underestimate admixture</i> <br /> <br /><br /><br />It's also the case that "markers" are a tiny subset of ones DNA. And that every person in the world has many different genetic "markers" - there isn't one little piece of genetic code which says "your ancestors came from <i>here</i>".<br /><br />Each individual has a lot of ancestors, and while the number of markers is not going to equal the number of ancestors (which can be in the millions once you look back far enough) it is going to be a pretty good sized number.<br /><br />You can say with perfect scientific accuracy that some individual (let's call him "Howard") can have genetic markers which tie him to Ireland, Syria, and various points in between.<br /><br />Which one of those points Howard chooses to signify his "true identity" is entirely arbitrary and rooted in psychology.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-89693117895206405552012-05-08T08:01:37.327-07:002012-05-08T08:01:37.327-07:00The goyim outside Israel are barred from working t...The goyim outside Israel are barred from working the land in Israel. RACISM!!!Svigorhttp://svigor.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-81274365577889951762012-05-08T07:42:00.541-07:002012-05-08T07:42:00.541-07:00Jews were not barred from working the land. That&...Jews were not barred from working the land. That's an insanely Jewish Supremacist spin. They were barred from being landholders, i.e., not allowed in on the racket of directly exploiting the peasantry via land (and people) ownership.<br /><br />Boo hoo, we don't get to exploit the peasants; poor, persecuted us.<br /><br />They didn't want to be farmers.Svigorhttp://svigor.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-32956050928852320522012-05-07T22:20:54.436-07:002012-05-07T22:20:54.436-07:00Life wasn't miserable for Jews.
They weren...<i>Life wasn't miserable for Jews.</i><br /><br />They weren't allowed to work the land and were forced into professions like medicine, banking, and law.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-88667126922951181452012-05-07T21:30:24.013-07:002012-05-07T21:30:24.013-07:00About 80% of Jewish males and 50% of Jewish female...<i>About 80% of Jewish males and 50% of Jewish females trace their ancestry back to the Middle East.</i> <br /> <br /><br /><br />I'm American. Drilling down a level from that, I'm of European ancestry - English and Irish for the most part.<br /><br />Of course the English and Irish did not spring up from the soil in England and Ireland. They arrived in those countries a little less than 2000 years ago. Go back 3000+ years and they, like all Europeans, originated in the Middle East. <br /><br />So what is it supposed to mean to say that some large percentage of Jewish males can trace their ancestry back to the Middle East? It would be shocking if this was <i>not</i> the case.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-16881864425786864852012-05-07T19:36:23.286-07:002012-05-07T19:36:23.286-07:00"being mistaken for a gentile during a pogrom...<b>"being mistaken for a gentile during a pogrom would have its advantages."</b><br /><br />Not much relevance, though. It's doubtful that Jews were much more likely to die in a pogrom than Christian men were to die in, say, a war. I could safely wager that over the course of European history the life expectancy of the average Jew was longer - perhaps far longer - than that of the average Christian. If pogroms were more common that would not have been the case.<br /><br />The truth is that life in the Middle Ages sucked no matter who you were. We're only ued to hearing the Jews bitch about it, though.<br /><br />Life wasn't miserable for Jews. They were granted almost exclusive access to a profession that even today is still the most profitable of all - finance. Over 40% of business profits today are in the finance industry.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-61060793323512751302012-05-07T17:44:15.022-07:002012-05-07T17:44:15.022-07:00does this mean it's ok to talk about race now?...does this mean it's ok to talk about race now? (~_^)hbd chickhttp://hbdchick.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-59003813977696755612012-05-07T17:43:27.712-07:002012-05-07T17:43:27.712-07:00@steve - "It would be interesting to compare ...@steve - <i>"It would be interesting to compare per capita accomplishment levels of Sephardim / Mizrahim to, say, Lebanese/Syrian Christians and Armenians. I would guess they'd be pretty comparable, but I don't really know. Are there any Muslim subgroups that play in that league on a per capita basis?"</i><br /><br />@ihtg - <i>"Arab Christians in Israel seem to be smarter than Middle Eastern Jews, and I believe this has been the historic stereotype as well."</i><br /><br />part of the reason copts are so disliked in egypt -- or, at least, one <i>given</i> reason for why they are so disliked -- is because they're perceived as wealthier/more successful than muslim egyptians. on average, i suppose. don't know if this perception is based on reality or not.hbd chickhttp://hbdchick.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.com