tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post4686340437614404603..comments2024-03-28T16:22:14.888-07:00Comments on Steve Sailer: iSteve: IQ: Intelligence and/or motivation?Unknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger61125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-16828888998259558582011-05-11T19:28:00.687-07:002011-05-11T19:28:00.687-07:00Silver:
I'm not really recommending a better ...Silver:<br /><br />I'm not really recommending a better approach. I'm just pointing out that this is a known bug in the human brain. (Or at least the educated middle-class first-world-citizen brain, the only kind of person I spend much time chatting with.) <br /><br />To misquote Sinclair Lewis, it's hard to make a man understand something, when his respectable membership in his community relies on him not understanding it.none of the abovenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-54208904004489140632011-05-08T22:51:16.804-07:002011-05-08T22:51:16.804-07:00Cenn,
Apparently, English has lost that useful co...Cenn,<br /><br /><i>Apparently, English has lost that useful construction known as a "generalization". As Canadian blogger Kathy Shaidle once said, if Paul Revere was riding today, he'd have to say "Some British are coming! Some British are coming!"</i><br /><br />Lol. Good one. <br /><br />Don't worry, I'm well aware of all that. But race is an emotional subject and generalizations do far more harm to understanding than they help.<br /><br />none of the,<br /><br /><i>b. The more your listener is offended/upset by the implications of what you're saying, the less effectively he's likely to think about it.</i><br /><br />Well obviously. That's the whole point behind including "on average." If "on average" is still upsetting (I'm "running into problems" according to you) then I'm stumped as to what you'd have me do.<br /><br />Actually, I'm not stumped. A great deal depends on the context in which the issue is raised. Most people, in my experience, get upset by the very fact that you're even talking about it. There's nothing you can do, so even if it's true, why talk about it? You're just "spreading hatred" they'll tell you. (Curiously, none of the bastards who tell you this wish that they themselves had never been informed of the facts -- it's always <i>other people</i> who must be kept ignorant.) Nevertheless, there are some contexts in which it's relevant to raise these issues, which will you get you a mostly fair/receptive hearing. The reason this is so is that people silently ask themselves <i>why</i> you're talking about it. If you've got an obvious reason to bring it up, it's okay. Otherwise you're no different to some mormon proselytizing you out of the blue halfway through lunch. Imo, the best reasons are defensive. Eg Whites are being blamed for what is not their fault. If these differences had no social impact there would be no need to discuss them, but they exact an awful cost so they must be discussed. It's not so much a case of the literal truth as it is making those truths an object of intense focus. I can guarantee you there are plenty of hard left shitheads who are well aware of the truth but who just don't care (because they hate or fear the consequences) -- in other words, they're aware of these truths, but these truths are not a central focus in their minds. These truths can't just be acknowledged; they need to become a central focus if action is ever to be taken.Silvernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-59579449203498094642011-05-08T19:35:08.300-07:002011-05-08T19:35:08.300-07:00Silver:
I think even with the "on average&qu...Silver:<br /><br />I think even with the "on average" phrasing, you run into two really hard problems:<br /><br />a. Most people just don't think in terms of probability distributions. That means that while you're thinking mu_0, mu_1, sigma_0, sigma_1, overlapping curves, etc., the other guy is likely having to force his brain through each step of the reasoning process. <br /><br />It's easy to forget how utterly f--king unnatural mathematical and statistical reasoning is for the human mind. Having kids really brings this home--I keep finding myself going through things like "All X are Y, not all Y are X" with them. It's worth remembering that most people, when faced with something like differences in IQ distributions between two different groups, are having to do something like that "manual override" step to even think about the idea that, say, whites have a 15 point higher average IQ than blacks, and yet Tyrone the cardiologist is way smarter than BJ the janitor.<br /><br />b. The more your listener is offended/upset by the implications of what you're saying, the less effectively he's likely to think about it.<br /><br />Even very smart people with the right mental toolkit to understand you can run into their own taboos and moral offense. But people who don't have the right mental toolkit to begin with, who would have to painstakingly think through every step to get your argument, will have way more problem doing this when you're arguing toward a morally or personally offensive point.none of the abovenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-65863912640141409942011-05-08T19:11:37.246-07:002011-05-08T19:11:37.246-07:00in this thread, like most HBD science threads, i c...in this thread, like most HBD science threads, i continue to be annoyed by the strict focus on comparing western europeans and western africans. as if these were the only two groups of humans that existed.<br /><br />if you're doing science by ignoring over half of the available data, you're not gonna increase your understanding of how the world works very much. somehow even HBD people are extremely locked in to this idea that there are only 2 or 3 groups in the world, when in reality there are like 5 or 6 broad groups to compare and contrast.<br /><br />i only had 4 years of training as a scientist when i was an undergraduate college student, but that alone was enough for me to bust rushton's "races on a sliding axis" hypothesis, the very first time i encountered it. even without having years of experience thinking about HBD i knew it was wrong since it excluded groups that did not fit. compared to some groups, europeans seemed to be better at almost everything, but the axis hypothesis did not predict that.<br /><br />i will say this, though. there is no doubt some types are africans are the least motivated people in the world. whether this is due to their brains or something else, i'm not sure. in sports threads we often talk about how black americans would dominate any sport if they were "interested", when in reality, many africans around the world are not even interested in the most important things in life, like not dying from hunger, thirst, or disease. they repeatedly show they have no interest even in copying technology some other group came up with for providing food, shelter, or vaccination, let alone playing some sport. detecting and avoiding, or at least mitigating, the devastation of earthquakes, hurricanes, and tornadoes, does not seem to rank anywhere on their list of priorities. you can't be more motivated than by the threat of death, yet millions of them do nothing, ever.jodynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-59229146426563954852011-05-08T17:08:34.426-07:002011-05-08T17:08:34.426-07:00Statsquatch has essentially demolished this study ...Statsquatch has essentially demolished this study at <a href="http://statsquatch.blogspot.com/2011/05/bad-apple-in-duckworths-iq-motivation.html" rel="nofollow">his blog</a>.THnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-25220517558487375702011-05-08T13:41:20.551-07:002011-05-08T13:41:20.551-07:00Motivation might be a larger factor on group admin...Motivation might be a larger factor on group administered tests like the SAT, LSAT, GRE, and AFQT, but on actual professionally administered IQ tests like the WAIS, I don't think motivation looms large. These professional tests consist of fun engaging tasks that start off very easy, and as soon as the subject fails several items in a row, the examiner moves to another subtest, where items once again start off easy and then quickly discontinue when they become challenging. Thus, one would have to be conspicuously lacking in motivation to give up. <br /><br />In addition, most of the questions can be answered quite rapidly (you either know the meaning of a certain word or you don't)and problem solving items usually have a time limit of no more than 3 minutes, so one does not need to sustain a huge amount of motivation to stay on task.<br /><br />There are a few subtests (Matrix reasoning) that don't have a time limit, and motivation might play a role here, however many of the tests that do require motivation and many of those that don't, both seem to load very high on the g factor common to all the tests which means the g factor appears to be a cognitive variable not a motivational one, and since the overall score is highly g loaded, for most people IQ tests are measuring intelligence, even if motivation confounds the scores in rare cases. In addition, IQ tests are highly correlated with chonometric measures of the speed and consistency of compex reaction time which occur below the speed of motivation and thus are not at all affected by it. Indeed it's impossible to fake a slow reaction time without producing speeds that are extreme outliers for any human.<br /><br />One scenario where I could see motivation being relevant are the exceptionally low IQ scores of the Roma. Despite the fact that Roma are non-white caucasoids, they average IQ 70; almost as low as pure black negroids living in Africa. One explanation for this is that the Roma (who have very little schooling) simply do not value intellectual pursuits enough to stay focused on Matrix reasoning type tasks. Indeed Rushton reported that many Roma complained that the test was giving them a headache.catpersonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00648652809818262153noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-33824053239463498462011-05-08T12:01:13.960-07:002011-05-08T12:01:13.960-07:00"Blacks are better at running and jumping and..."Blacks are better at running and jumping and Whites are better at thinking."<br /><br />I assume you mean: "On average"? <br /><br />Obviously at the collegiate, Olympic and professional levels black running and jumping superiority is evident but has there ever been a study on black vs white running/jumping ability in the general population?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-77529620903572871912011-05-08T12:00:30.508-07:002011-05-08T12:00:30.508-07:00"Black Africans and Afro-Carribeans do pretty..."Black Africans and Afro-Carribeans do pretty well academically in the UK."<br /><br />With regard to Black African immigrants, I imagine there is a selection effect, in North America as well as the UK. Nice work, skimming off the best and brightest from continent with the lowest average level of human capital. (Self-) congratulations are clearly in order!<br /><br />CennbeorcAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-36488791843140148642011-05-08T11:55:53.082-07:002011-05-08T11:55:53.082-07:00"But why shoot yourself in the foot by leavin..."But why shoot yourself in the foot by leaving out the key words "on average"? Most people absolutely will take your point to be that all white are smarter than all blacks and that all blacks are better runners and jumpers than all whites."<br /><br />Apparently, English has lost that useful construction known as a "generalization". As Canadian blogger Kathy Shaidle once said, if Paul Revere was riding today, he'd have to say "Some British are coming! Some British are coming!"<br /><br />CennbeorcAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-19351561255906898772011-05-08T10:22:57.736-07:002011-05-08T10:22:57.736-07:00captain Jack,
Agreed that Obama is playing immigr...captain Jack,<br /><br />Agreed that Obama is playing immigration in such a way that Republicans split into Chamber of Commerce sorts v. the rest of Repubs.<br /><br />That doesn't mean, however, he'll be successful. As you mentioned, immigration "reform" hasn't a chance when the economy rots. Too many struggling Americans, of any race, need those jobs, if only temporarily.<br /><br />Perhaps, too, the recent capture of OBL will have a perverse effect (from a liberal perspective) of reminding voters how different and hostile is the Arab/Muslim culture. Media coverage of the capture was ubiquitous. Unavoidable. Low information voters got a glance into a world that hates us. frankly, I can't see how the media coverage of OBL could help Democrats in their drive to increase D voters through lax immigration policies. The media blew this one, if they were intending to help Obama, that is. In the long run, it may just undermine Obama.<br /><br />A persistent and subtle identity between Obama and "foreigners" has never been shaken, which makes Immigration Reform impossible on his watch.<br /><br />On a related note, when in Israel, simply driving between Tel Aviv and Jerusalem, the walls and fences separating the Arabs from the Jews are both effective and simply made. This begs the question: So who, here, is benefiting from lax immigration, if not the Democrats? Who on the R side wants more illegals? Why?Kristenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16239014631677633313noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-15288964617413652912011-05-08T08:06:17.187-07:002011-05-08T08:06:17.187-07:00According to Richard Lynn Afro-Carribeans in the U...According to Richard Lynn Afro-Carribeans in the U.K have an I.Q of 86.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-40756380150073743302011-05-08T07:57:42.850-07:002011-05-08T07:57:42.850-07:00Afro-Caribians do terribly in England. I don't...Afro-Caribians do terribly in England. I don't know where you get your information. <br /><br />There is currently a scandal in the U.K because Oxford only accepted one (1) black-english student last year.<br /><br />http://www2.warwick.ac.uk/fac/soc/cedar/staff/stevestrand/strand_inpress_tiering_prepub.pdfAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-48846323972445726222011-05-08T02:15:55.296-07:002011-05-08T02:15:55.296-07:00Blacks Africans and Afro-Carribeans do pretty well...Blacks Africans and Afro-Carribeans do pretty well academically in the UK. The black-white gap in "good GCSEs" (the measure of academic attainment in secondary school) is a lot smaller than in the U.S. Africans are also more likely to be enrolled in full-time university than the white British.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-70351786233503457412011-05-08T02:06:47.905-07:002011-05-08T02:06:47.905-07:00Yet is that what science actually says about race ...<i>Yet is that what science actually says about race and IQ? No. Science says exactly the opposite. The races are not equal. Blacks are better at running and jumping and Whites are better at thinking.</i><br /><br />But why shoot yourself in the foot by leaving out the key words "on average"? Most people absolutely will take your point to be that <i>all</i> white are smarter than <i>all</i> blacks and that all blacks are better runners and jumpers than all whites. It's in the aggregate that the distributions of these abilities really matter, not at the level of the individual. At the level of the individual, the science of race has very little to tell us about ourselves.Silvernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-70689476285647664282011-05-07T23:56:46.942-07:002011-05-07T23:56:46.942-07:00Captain JA, good analysis on the amnesty thing, I&...Captain JA, good analysis on the amnesty thing, I'd say - this is basically 'trolling' on the part of the president. You mention that it would have been far easier when the Dems had both houses of Congress. I'll add that the attempts under Bush were also much more likely to succeed, because economic conditions were (or seemed) much better.RSnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-34051735871672103322011-05-07T23:19:02.808-07:002011-05-07T23:19:02.808-07:00There is some weirdness in Duckworth's meta-an...There is some weirdness in Duckworth's meta-analysis. Her pooled estimate of a .64 SD improvement depends heavily on one paper from the late 70s by a researcher who was later accused of research fraud.Statsquatchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17817921893921527627noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-52403169760922617892011-05-07T21:52:24.465-07:002011-05-07T21:52:24.465-07:00Anyone care to take a shot at OBL's IQ?Anyone care to take a shot at OBL's IQ?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-37849351786713070862011-05-07T21:14:25.861-07:002011-05-07T21:14:25.861-07:00OBL apparently watching himself on TV at his priso...OBL apparently watching himself on TV at his prison / hideout / retirement home.<br /><br />http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/al-qaeda/8500525/Osama-bin-Laden-home-video-terrorist-leader-shown-as-frail-figure-watching-himself-on-TV.htmlWandrinnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-1592013772317390842011-05-07T21:06:12.865-07:002011-05-07T21:06:12.865-07:00Intelligence and, imo. However, if conscientousnes...Intelligence and, imo. However, if conscientousness (c-ness) is a trait that gets selected for due to benefits for conforming to an elite prescribed social identity then:<br /><br />1) High population density would lead to a greater need for strong social identity restraint.<br /><br />2) Highly complex societies would both require higher levels of c-ness to wade through higher levels of education and training and be able to provide greater rewards for the winners.<br /><br />3) Societies with higher average IQ may be able to create more efficient methods of selecting for c-ness e.g Confucian exam system.<br /><br />4) Mechanisms for selecting c-ness would work over time so a population that developed refined methods of selecting for c-ness and implemented them over a long period of time would have the greatest amounts.<br /><br />5) Populations that didn't develop high-density populations or highly complex socieies would have less need to develop mechanisms for selecting c-ness and would likely have the lowest amounts.<br /><br />6) If c-ness measured willingness to conform to the dominant social identity system then a minority group A's average c-ness would apply in group B's culture. However if c-ness measures willingness to conform to one's own group's social identity and that social identity is at odds with the dominant one then c-ness might have the opposite effect i.e conforming to one's own group's anti-education attitude.<br /><br />7) High discipline would partially make up for low c-ness. If c-ness effectively determined what percentage of inherent IQ actually got used then someone who was 85 IQ but 70% c-ness could possibly be externally coerced to their maximum (but would probably back-slide if the discipline was removed).<br /><br />I think the black population are likely to have lower average c-ness for reason 5) but it could be increased because of 6) and 7).<br /><br />I think 6) could easily be proved by comparing middle-class Africans with slavery-descended black people of similar IQ. The Africans won't have the same "acting white" problem and will do a bit better.<br /><br />8) Extremely high c-ness might have an overclocking effect.<br /><br />.Wandrinnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-27432269783475885422011-05-07T20:59:13.437-07:002011-05-07T20:59:13.437-07:00OT, but according to a Tom Tancredo email: "T...OT, but according to a Tom Tancredo email: <b>"The Whitehouse announced that the president will make a major immigration speech on Tuesday. According to Obama’s press secretary Jay Carney, "What I can say is that the speech will reflect the President's continued commitment to find a bipartisan way to create comprehensive immigration reform."</b><br /><br />Hmmm. We had three pushes for amnesty during the Bush Administration (one aborted by 9/11) and one attempt during the lame duck session of the Democratic-controlled Congress late last year, but none at all when Democrats controlled everything.<br /><br />Three observations: 1) If a limited amnesty for "students" couldn't happen when Dems controlled everything, a larger version won't happen now. 2) Democrats must see amnesty as a way of enticing Republicans into angering their base. Amnesty pushes depress a considerable number of Republican voters. 3) The fact that Republican leadership is willing to piss off its primary supporters by cutting Medicare, but is willing to push amnesty in order to (allegedly) attract Hispanics, should be depressing enough. Kowtow to the voters you don't have (and never will), but piss off your loyal supporters.<br /><br />For me, it's working - I won't be voting Republican next year without a major effort to secure our borders.Captain Jack Aubreynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-65747024560656227432011-05-07T20:25:59.933-07:002011-05-07T20:25:59.933-07:00"Renorming" the Military AFQT in 1980 di...<i>"Renorming" the Military AFQT in 1980 did one thing for it if nothing else. Mensa does not accept AFQT scores for tests taken after October of 1980.</i><br /><br />I'd like to see a pre-1980 AFQT. The one I took in the mid-80s didn't look anything like an IQ test.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-45120496005980686352011-05-07T20:17:33.938-07:002011-05-07T20:17:33.938-07:00I've seen the effects of someting similar to (...I've seen the effects of someting similar to (yet distinct from) stereotype theat that affects motivation:<br /><br />In the 70s & 80s whites felt they just couldn't compete with blacks in boxing. With many East European boxing champions today, that has changed however.<br /><br />I've spoken with top college white track athletes who openly admit it's a fools errand for them to try to compete with blacks in short sprinting events.<br /><br />As a parent, I steer my kids away from sports they are at a clear genetic disadvantage for and towards ones where they can succeed.<br /> <br />Today, the talent net is cast far wider, is more accurate at identifying potential talent and developing it. Competition at the top is so intense that any genetic limitations are disqualifiers.<br /><br />I don't think these are cases of the standard "sterotype threat" that suggests a below average performance due to an irrational or unconscious debilitating state of mind. Rather, these are rational conscious mental calculations about the potential rewards for relative investments of time, effort and other resources.<br /><br />Sports psychologists, trainers and coaches who try to motivate athletes toward better performances probably have no effect on average. Still, they could realize tremendous improvements in individual athtetes, especially noticible at the tails.Sterotype Threat in Sportsnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-764581126268721862011-05-07T20:03:09.888-07:002011-05-07T20:03:09.888-07:00"Has everyone noticed that our media has esse...<i>"Has everyone noticed that our media has essentially become like the old Soviet Pravda, a propoganda arm of the ruling regime and permanent elites?"</i><br /><br />From <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trofim_Lysenko#Early_rise" rel="nofollow">Wikipedia on Lysenko</a>. <br /><br /><i>In succeeding years, however, further attempts to grow the peas were unsuccessful. Similar Soviet media reports heralding Lysenko's further discoveries in agriculture continued from 1927 until 1964; reports of amazing (and seemingly impossible) successes, each one replaced with new success claims as earlier ones failed. Few of the successes attributed to Lysenko could be duplicated. Nevertheless, with the media's help, Lysenko enjoyed the popular image of the "barefoot scientist"—the embodiment of the mythic Soviet peasant genius.<br /> <br />By the late 1920s, the Soviet political bosses had given their support to Lysenko. This support was a consequence, in part, of policies put in place by Communist party personnel to rapidly promote members of the proletariat into leadership positions in agriculture, science and industry. Party officials were looking for promising candidates with backgrounds similar to Lysenko's: born of a peasant family, without formal academic training or affiliations to the academic community.</i><br /><br />Which contemporary politicians could be substituted for "Lysenko" and which ethnic group could be substituted for "peasant" and "proletariat"?Pravda Todaynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-751814954850332212011-05-07T19:25:12.793-07:002011-05-07T19:25:12.793-07:00@ Truth
OK, so I took a gratuitous shot at my ex-...@ Truth<br /><br />OK, so I took a gratuitous shot at my ex-wife. The funny thing is that I was not joking. <br /><br />My bigger point is that tests like the MMP are not designed to see how intelligent someone is. Lots of really dumb people have custody of children. There are no "right" answers. It is designed to find out what kind of personality you have. The guy who did my last evaluation ($8,000) had done something like 1,800 MMPs in his career, mostly on guys who were trying to get released from prison. There is something like 553 questions, all of which have mutually exclusive answers. They are basically looking for patterns. People who try and game the test will answer they way they thinks helps their case but what is really is happening is that they reveal their lack of voracity. <br /><br />This type of test also works well on potential hires. It does not matter how smart someone is if they hate they type of work they are applying for. A person who is highly motivated (i.e. desperate for work) will say anything on a job interview. They might look and sound like a good candidate but two weeks into the job they are already underachieving. Once they have an income, their motivation disappears like a sun tan and they are grinding away in a position they should not be in.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-86403270180553824712011-05-07T18:55:56.769-07:002011-05-07T18:55:56.769-07:00I've always heard IQ is correlated pretty high...I've always heard IQ is correlated pretty highly with income. Is this true, and if so, what are the sources. I've seen some discussion that the correlation is rather low, but I'm suspect about that given the usual thought police on the subject. Who's right?Scotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07015297601955395727noreply@blogger.com