tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post541869709582482726..comments2024-03-28T16:22:14.888-07:00Comments on Steve Sailer: iSteve: Two modes of intellectual discourse: Taking everything personally v. debate as sportUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger90125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-21951195295697753162016-05-17T20:30:37.912-07:002016-05-17T20:30:37.912-07:00tl;dr, indeed. It's overling even in Sailer&#...tl;dr, indeed. 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Techniques for enforcing group norms and b...seebs:<br /><br />Techniques for enforcing group norms and beliefs, or defining some ideas or people as beyind the pale, are pretty useful in various levels of group politics, from me and my brother vs my cousin stuff all the way up to national politics or keeping a big church together. <br /><br />The super inclusive style of discourse is mainly useful for keeping a relatively big, diverse group all pointed the same direction, I think. CEOs and political leaders like that kind of language, because it helps them harness a bigger group of people to their will. (And the purpose can be good or bad. There is a damned good reason why the usual advice about workplace discussions involves staying off of politics, religion, and other conflict-laden topics.). NOTAnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-11602435766450698082012-12-11T10:00:23.840-08:002012-12-11T10:00:23.840-08:00Anon:
Two markers for seeking truth instead of vi...Anon:<br /><br />Two markers for seeking truth instead of victory:<br /><br />a. How likely is it that your claim about reality can be tested with experiments or observations in the near future? <br /><br />b. Is there an incentive for some people to get their picture of reality right, in order to achieve some other goal? <br /><br />The worst situation is one where there's nobody with a strong incentive to get the right answer to accomplish some other goals (like making their plane fly or getting rich or geting their building to stand up), and where it's rarely or never possible to test anyone's theories against new data. In that case, however much the field has the trappings of science, it turns into an exercise in convincing other people you're right. That looks a lot more like philosophy or macroeconomics or politics than it does like physics or engineering or even medicine. <br /><br />I think in fields like that, intellectual fads and clicques are almost guaranteed. Let those fads and clicques get caught up in larger social and political identity, and any search for truth is even less likely to happen. NOTAnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-39295519684933769842012-12-11T09:20:14.546-08:002012-12-11T09:20:14.546-08:00I don't think there are exactly two models on ...I don't think there are exactly two models on offer, and I'm not sure I buy the assignment of gender roles to them.<br /><br />As always, before you declare a mechanism superior, you need to figure out what you want to accomplish. In general, my experience is that more metaphorically violent forms of discourse are great at determining who's wittier, and crappy at determining who's right. Carefully non-confrontational forms, on the other hand, are frequently poor at getting any articulation at all of what the positions even are, let alone some kind of meaningful contrast.<br /><br />In short, it seeems to me that you're comparing two strategies which both suck.<br /><br />I observe:<br /><br />There is giving offense, and there is taking offense. If you try to avoid anything at which people might take offense, you can't expect to say anything of interest. If you go out of your way to give offense, you may be able to say things of interest, but you won't communicate them. The winning strategy seems to be for people to accept that offense may occur, but to avoid going out of their way to give offense.<br /><br />Most people know nothing about how to persuade.seebshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13682607472729749985noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-71512940141003118922012-12-11T09:19:32.680-08:002012-12-11T09:19:32.680-08:00I don't think there are exactly two models on ...I don't think there are exactly two models on offer, and I'm not sure I buy the assignment of gender roles to them.<br /><br />As always, before you declare a mechanism superior, you need to figure out what you want to accomplish. In general, my experience is that more metaphorically violent forms of discourse are great at determining who's wittier, and crappy at determining who's right. Carefully non-confrontational forms, on the other hand, are frequently poor at getting any articulation at all of what the positions even are, let alone some kind of meaningful contrast.<br /><br />In short, it seeems to me that you're comparing two strategies which both suck.<br /><br />I observe:<br /><br />There is giving offense, and there is taking offense. If you try to avoid anything at which people might take offense, you can't expect to say anything of interest. If you go out of your way to give offense, you may be able to say things of interest, but you won't communicate them. The winning strategy seems to be for people to accept that offense may occur, but to avoid going out of their way to give offense.<br /><br />Most people know nothing about how to persuade.seebshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13682607472729749985noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-36205826755095082912012-12-11T00:49:51.037-08:002012-12-11T00:49:51.037-08:00The distinction stems from the aim.
If the aim is...The distinction stems from the aim.<br /><br />If the aim is to arrive at the closest point to the truth i.e. *both* brains want to arrive at the same spot, then you develop a debating mechanism with agreed rules which leverages all the available brains to the same end.<br /><br />Peer-review is an example.<br /><br />If the aim is for one side to *win* regardless of the truth then the form adapts to that aim whether through extreme verbal aggression or extreme passive-aggression the result is the same.<br /><br />Rigging peer-review a la climategate is an example.<br /><br />The first form is rare but when it takes root the people among whom it roots tend to invent / discover a great deal during the time it lasts.<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-64747550844027779702012-12-10T17:03:58.438-08:002012-12-10T17:03:58.438-08:00Steve, this is kind of an old distinction that fe...Steve, this is kind of an old distinction that feminist psycholgists have been talking about for decades regarding ethical learning.<br /><br />Lawrence Kohlberg, a famous psychologist, in various studies discovered that female children have more difficulty than male children in learning and grasping the application of "universal" moral laws (like everybody should be treated equally before the law, etc...)<br /><br />Carol Gilligan, another Harvard psycholgist, posited that it wasn't that girls were inferior it was just that they were more orientd to the communty and to building and maintaining relationships of inclusiveness (sound familiar?) and so they were therefore more likley to view universal laws as amenable to bending or breaking in order to preserve the community.<br /><br />It's quite funny really ... and just nonsense because bascially what it boils down is girls wanting everyone to get along...even if it means fucking over their brothers ... and if you object ... well then you are "racist" or a "sexist" or whatever.<br /><br />To me the Left doesn't use rational arguments because rational arguments are yucky and ineffective to reach their fellow travelers who operate purely on the level of emotion... therefore they just rely on ad hominen attacks like you're "racist" or "sexist". <br /><br />Extraordinarily primitve type of point and sputter if you think about it... but amazing how effective being denounced as a witch is in this day and age. <br /><br />It's all emotion ... female brains are smaller that's a fact (as is the case with certain minorities)... giving them the vote was a huge mistake...no question about it. Rational arguments will never ever reach most of them .<br /><br />We are doomed.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-47801717353248084472012-12-10T16:47:03.864-08:002012-12-10T16:47:03.864-08:00I think Sailer is onto something when he notes tha...I think Sailer is onto something when he notes that this social construct is <i>rare</i>. The natural mode <i>is</i> to take debating attacks personally; you need a lot of training in the right milieu to learn to separate your personal life from the debating arena.<br /><br />I also agree that there is something inherently masculine about the Anglo-Saxon debating style, though it is also much more civilized than the "traditional" way men settled their difference. The introduction of more women into intellectual discourse may have something to do with this shift, though I imagine a lot of it is also beta-males wanting to make the women feel comfortable, as well as get emotional protection from the alpha-male debaters.jgresshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03287009809340785879noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-55335900362991668582012-12-10T14:20:24.010-08:002012-12-10T14:20:24.010-08:00The good way is a form of parallel processing - a ...The good way is a form of parallel processing - a way of leveraging all the brains in a population whereas the new way just uses the brains of those who have the ability to shout the loudest.<br /><br />Not surprising that innovation stems from cultures that hit upon the good way.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-2666816544401413232012-12-10T13:21:32.624-08:002012-12-10T13:21:32.624-08:00I think there's a kind of availability bias th...I think there's a kind of availability bias that makes the arguments of the past seem more logical than they probably were. Logical arguments are almost the only ones that feel like they have any currency at all, and so the only ones most people will ever bother reading from the past. Arguments based on political or social identity have a lot of weight now, but they don't translate across countries and centuries too well. Seventy years ago, you could have shut up a lot of arguments by accusing the speaker of being a Communist, but these days, that kind of accusation just doesn't have much weight. Arguments that amount to "shut up or you'll get your ass kicked" have even less weight, when read centuries later and thousands of miles away--who cares what the Inquisition or the KGB will think of this argument, now that those things are no longer fearsome entities and never were very important here anyway? <br /><br />The result is that the only arguments that seem worthwhile or intereting from the past are the ones that are mostly driven by logic of some kind. The more common appeals to identity, tradition, widespread belief, or threats of dire consequences for you or the world if you persist in your heresy just don't translate well. <br /><br />You could demonstrably lose your job and be chased out of town and lose all your friends for making the wrong arguments even during the golden ages (still going on) when reason and math and experiment and observation gave us previously-unimaginable power and wealth. You could say true things that would ruin your life in 1612, in 1712, in 1812, and in 1912, just as you can in 2012. The thing that changes is mostly *which* true things you'd get in trouble for saying, which vary across times and places. ) NOTAnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-11623413206855561652012-12-10T12:41:24.799-08:002012-12-10T12:41:24.799-08:00"one in which sensitivity, inclusivity, and i..."one in which sensitivity, inclusivity, and inoffensiveness are key values"<br /><br /><br />The problem with this article is when i read that sentence, I knew the author was on the other side. No one ever characterizes their OWN position as dedicated to "inoffensiveness". Robellininoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-87482657958808755042012-12-10T11:55:50.103-08:002012-12-10T11:55:50.103-08:00Those articles are long. I'm lazy. I want to r...Those articles are long. I'm lazy. I want to read the Mencius Moldbug Condensed Edition.Anthonyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12389602137217799305noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-34943626371300295612012-12-10T11:26:48.833-08:002012-12-10T11:26:48.833-08:00I'm no historian at all, but my impression is ...I'm no historian at all, but my impression is that this kind of outraged point-and-sputter mode of argument, complete with purges, blacklists, lynchings, burnings at the stake, and breakings on the wheel, is not only the default mode of argument, it was common even during what we now think of as intellectual golden ages. Certainly, people arguing in public for unpopular minority religions, Bible-violating astronomy, geology, or biology, or political theories that required the powerful people in the local society to pick their own damned cotton have gotten plenty of hatred, shouting down, and running out of town over the years. <br /><br />The thing is, we now see at least some subset of those rabble-rousers as the good guys. Their contemporaries mostly didn't--they saw the Darwins and Benthams and Douglasses as offensive and dangerous subversives, the way powerful people in the US in the early 50s saw Communists. <br /><br />Similarly, most of the rabble-rousers were full of shit, just like most of their contemporaries spouting conventional wisdom of the day. But we mainly remember the small subset of rabble-rousers who were right. And if you're looking for a way to be right, arguments based on logic and data, of the kind that can convince a fair-minded skeptic who doesn't want to believe them, will get you a lot further than arguments based on "If you say that in public again, you'll be spitting out teeth, buddy." NOTAnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-69860459878922273422012-12-10T02:24:37.709-08:002012-12-10T02:24:37.709-08:00Here's the debate on immigration between Marin...Here's the debate on immigration between Marine Le Pen and Manuel Valls I mentioned:<br /><br />http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AE3UdAV73C0<br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-21352572417033656682012-12-10T02:22:22.312-08:002012-12-10T02:22:22.312-08:00Generally, anybody who denounces opponents as repr...<i>Generally, anybody who denounces opponents as representing "hate" is hate-filled.</i><br /><br />What a hateful thing to say.<br /><br />I tried arguing with a woman once that women (on average) are too emotional to be good at reasoning. But she refused to accept it or indeed discuss it further, because the idea of sex-differences upset her too much. As for arguing with the Scotch-Irish... Tinnitus ahoy! And it has been a v. successful tactic.<br />Zed O'Toolenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-76819554009795077932012-12-10T02:19:37.784-08:002012-12-10T02:19:37.784-08:00As a distant spectator to both the French and Brit...As a distant spectator to both the French and British political scene I'd say it's the French who have the more lively, masculine and sporting style of debate of the two countries. Britain seems to now use the "inclusive" feminine techniques of shaming, shunning, appeals to peer pressure and a delight in silliness and trivia to carry out its politics while France still uses the bare-knuckle debate. Their big political prizefight last week was between Manuel Valls and Marine Le Pen, who is very much her father's daughter except that she's better at keeping her cool. And, yes, even though she's one of the better players at this game, the French political scene is still very masculine. When I say "masculine" I don't mean there are lots of men either. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com