tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post5711237978205220320..comments2024-03-19T02:31:02.140-07:00Comments on Steve Sailer: iSteve: Education Realist responds to Unz essay on college admissionsUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger91125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-31289744146417325632012-12-12T23:54:46.680-08:002012-12-12T23:54:46.680-08:00A test that Asians can't crush whites on? I th...A test that Asians can't crush whites on? I think it's quite easy. When devising a subject test (eg. Chemistry), contain the following types of questions:<br /><br />1. Some knowledge questions. No more than 40% of the score. Memorise, ho hum types. Easy as heck.<br /><br />2. Some application/data response questions. Again, no more than 40% of the score. Requires some brainpower, but set at a level that the slightly above average student can work through.<br /><br />3. Have 20% of the score based on questions that teach a concept right on the spot, and ask the candidate to solve them using the concept outlined. It's great fun for the intellectually curious, but not so fun for the grinders, who might do well for the other question types but fall apart here. It's the content version of the IQ test, assessing the student's ability to identify and apply the patterns taught. In essence, the raw core of intelligence.<br /><br />To avoid disadvantaging the non-grinders (eg. whites), you can make questions belonging to type 1 and 2 really damn easy, or even make it pseudo-open book (you can bring in an A5 sized card, for example) that enables good students to be able to go well even if they didn't really prep hard enough for it.<br /><br />Then toss in type 3 questions to sieve out the really brilliant who deserve to get into the elite ranks. Works every time, and almost impossible to prep for, because the type 3 question content is often university level and there's just too much content at that level to grind through.<br /><br />BTW, I believe virtually every A level student (ages 16-18) in Singapore can explain the derivation of the quadratic formula - that's 30% of the cohort. Either the teaching is just too lousy, or the foundation just isn't there.<br /><br />And they have to be able to explain it, because maths at their level is quite horrible.<br />http://www.seab.gov.sg/aLevel/2013Syllabus/9740_2013.pdfThe Wobbly Guynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-3808169028628368722012-12-12T15:24:37.400-08:002012-12-12T15:24:37.400-08:00"Asian parenting techniques are abusive in wh..."Asian parenting techniques are abusive in white people world. "<br /><br />today's white people world?<br /><br /><br />"Education Realist forgets what the tests are for. They are for predicting future performance.'<br />"And current tests predict with high accuracy future performance. For all races. "<br /><br />do they? I recall hearing complaints on how they didn't, and for sexes as well. My explanation was perhaps even with recentering, SATs couldn't keep up with the grade inflation?<br /><br />"and Asian doctors would kill their patients... "<br /><br />for a moment thought it said 'parents', amy chuas beware!<br /><br /><br />"This seems to be much more common in both Jewish and Asian cultures - high parental investment."<br /><br />many white boys would have at least have the ambition to better their old man, if there was an old man around.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-79616663524456262582012-12-12T13:41:54.065-08:002012-12-12T13:41:54.065-08:00"In my first- and second-hand experience, sma...<em>"In my first- and second-hand experience, smart white kids ..."<br /><br />"Then, how come so many white college kids..."</em><br /><br />There's a very important word in my sentence that's missing from your sentence. A hint: "college" doesn't mean the same thing at all.Cail Corishevhttp://cailcorishev.wordpress.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-35143882104013862292012-12-12T13:24:14.733-08:002012-12-12T13:24:14.733-08:00"The future of testing will arrive when someb...<em>"The future of testing will arrive when somebody comes up with a test that Asians can't crush whites on."</em><br /><br />Wouldn't straight IQ tests come the closest on this? Assuming it's true that Asians average a few points higher than whites, that's hardly "crushing" them, and at least you can't inflate your score by cramming. Also, since we're talking about the right end of the bell curve, the shape matters. The Asian average may be a little higher, but if the white curve is wider, whites could regain the advantage at the higher levels. Has anyone actually looked at that?<br /><br /><em>This is why I will homeschool.</em><br /><br />That's an interesting point. Asian parents have basically determined that they'll do whatever it takes to get their kids the magical scores that colleges want: cram school, tutors, hiring out the homework, whatever. What happens if white parents decide the same thing, but instead of manipulating things within the school system, they just homeschool and hand their kids straight A's?<br /><br />If the colleges simply don't want whites, it's easy: don't accept homeschool grades. But they already know from the last couple of decades of performance that homeschool kids tend to be pretty sharp and good students. If they do want the good ones, they're going to have to depend on the tests to sort out the real gems from the fake.Cail Corishevhttp://cailcorishev.wordpress.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-55842560655664442332012-12-12T13:14:02.262-08:002012-12-12T13:14:02.262-08:00"In my first- and second-hand experience, sma..."In my first- and second-hand experience, smart white kids have a lot of intellectual interests outside school in which they invest a lot of time and energy."<br /><br />Then, how come so many white college kids all think, party, and talk alike? It's PC and pussy. <br /><br />I don't see much of intellectual interest in anything by anyone. Among conservatives, it's always been the case, and I think the problem got worse because many of the most interesting thinkers on the right said stuff about race, sex, and etc. But since those became taboo subjects, rightist thinking got dumb with MLK worship and free markets as solution for all problems. <br />I mean does anyone really think 'school choice' will fix problems? And do white people really want black kids to CHOOSE to come to their schools? Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-54467842198695528942012-12-12T12:47:44.186-08:002012-12-12T12:47:44.186-08:00The larger problems seems to be the numbers of peo...The larger problems seems to be the numbers of people gaming the admissions system. The metrics used to determine admission were supposed to measure some underlying qualities, but they've become ends in themselves. Worse, the gamers tend to have all sorts of negative qualities; they're a bunch of group-think conformists who are all asking "will this be on the test?" <br /><br />One of the great things about the US is that you can be a complete screw-up at 17, obsessed with choom and chicks and Chevys, and still get your shit together at 23. This ethos seems to be lacking at the elite level, though. The pipeline for the elite runs through elite schools, and that's gated to select the gamers described above. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-9069913490304611852012-12-12T06:40:07.531-08:002012-12-12T06:40:07.531-08:00In my first- and second-hand experience, smart whi...In my first- and second-hand experience, smart white kids have a lot of intellectual interests outside school in which they invest a lot of time and energy. I spent many hours learning to program computers, reading all sorts of books, designing adventures for role-playing games, building things, learning to grow things, and so on. Those activities all made me more knowledgeable and well-rounded (the elusive quality schools supposedly want), but not in any way you could easily measure. Since smart kids generally aren't "joiners," they may not even do those things through a group like 4-H or Scouts that can be put on an application.<br /><br />I didn't know any smart Asian kids growing up, but my impression from reading about them is that they don't tend to have as wide a range of interests. They're more likely to focus on the areas of knowledge that will directly help them get a degree or a job, and disdain knowledge that isn't obviously useful.<br /><br />So if you have 100 white kids and 100 Asian kids, all with IQs of 120, the Asian kids will probably have a better average GPA and more AP classes under their belts. The white kids will probably be more interesting to hang around with, and will have a better chance of finding alternate employment and having a good life if the target goals their parents set when they were toddlers don't work out.Cail Corishevhttp://cailcorishev.wordpress.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-8640101108512962432012-12-12T01:09:16.669-08:002012-12-12T01:09:16.669-08:00Because grades are largely based on homework, and ...<i>Because grades are largely based on homework, and Asian parents do their children's homework for them.</i><br /><br />Yes, because their Engrish is that much better.<br /><br />Let's give credit, where credit is due.<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-72637483903297001442012-12-11T21:18:09.156-08:002012-12-11T21:18:09.156-08:00Why would ending grades and going exclusively by t...<i>Why would ending grades and going exclusively by tests hurt Asians rather than help them and hurt blacks and Hispanics?</i><br /><br />Because grades are largely based on homework, and Asian parents do their children's homework for them.ben tillmannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-84787521366771457002012-12-11T21:07:23.114-08:002012-12-11T21:07:23.114-08:00"Black test performance may understate their ...<i>"Black test performance may understate their abilities because the tests focus too much on abstraction and generalized situations."<br /><br />It depends on how you define "abilities". If by abilities you mean "g" then forget it....</i><br /><br />Right. La Griffe covered this years ago, at least with respect to Blacks whose SAT scores are on the right tail of the bell curve. It's sampling error where, typically, n=1.ben tillmannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-74483743716941848972012-12-11T20:35:54.190-08:002012-12-11T20:35:54.190-08:00If you want a test that both whites and blacks wil...If you want a test that both whites and blacks will do better than Asians on, why not test football skills, pct. body fat, size of one's John P. Wadsworth, and stick in a grandfather clause?<br /><br />Or just admit that if its unacceptable favoritism for blacks to get AA over whites because of poorer performance , then on principle it should also be to cook up tests to benefit whites over Asians because Asians do better. The other option is to say f*ck principles, I do it because I want whites to do better.Catharnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-54938872685758728182012-12-11T20:27:55.199-08:002012-12-11T20:27:55.199-08:00It does seem that the elite school alums are dinin...<i>It does seem that the elite school alums are dining out for an awfully long time on a good score on a standardized test taken when they were 17.<br /><br />Why might this pattern of recruiting persist?</i><br /><br /><i>Griggs v Duke Power</i>. That's the bad meat that poisons the well, and until the courts decide companies can give IQ tests without getting sued employers will continue to use college admissions as a proxy for intelligence.Erichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10330712047609650184noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-16507711833982695692012-12-11T19:57:58.884-08:002012-12-11T19:57:58.884-08:00"Ivy league universities have a special manda..."Ivy league universities have a special mandate: Produce profitable leaders. That is why their admissions criteria aren't purely based on scores and GPA's."<br /><br />Yes, they've done a good job of leading this country down the drain.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-57812039402227757762012-12-11T18:31:12.276-08:002012-12-11T18:31:12.276-08:00"Make Harvard admit say, 85% of its student b..."Make Harvard admit say, 85% of its student body as Blacks..."<br /><br />Hey Sviggey, you've made this exact "point" numerous times. You can no longer deny that you and Whiskey are kindred spirits!Truthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17286755693955361308noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-5522879913854971932012-12-11T18:20:55.795-08:002012-12-11T18:20:55.795-08:00I'm struck by something that is kind of weird ...I'm struck by something that is kind of weird if you think about it.<br /><br />Intelligence should be valuable right?<br /><br />But let's take a super smart kid who just graduated high school. He reads and studies on his own.<br /><br />What good is it? I'm sure he will do well, but unless something statistically unlikely happens he isn't going to invent the better mousetrap, or write the screenplay for a mega-blockbuster.<br /><br />If you don't go the college route, your only real route to wealth is to have outstanding people skills. Being the best machinist in the state of New York might be good for a little over 100k, maybe.<br /><br />You could have made a lot more money running a team of Mexicans roofing houses when the boom was going.<br /><br />My belief is that if you don't get your ticket punched at the right school, brains are not as useful as you might think. They might be useful for someone else, but it's not your ticket to ride.<br /><br />On the other hand reading and manipulating people takes real intelligence, and it is the only way most people can get ahead. But I'm not sure that getting A's in AP Calculus in High School really helps you.sunbeamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16540822135478202229noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-92171116361948242772012-12-11T18:15:12.976-08:002012-12-11T18:15:12.976-08:00re" Anonymous said...
i"n seven years an...re" Anonymous said...<br />i"n seven years and probably 300 kids I have never once had a student who could explain the derivation of the quadratic formula (that is, the generalized case for completing the square).."<br /><br />Sounds very implausible. If those kids had an average iq of 105 then you're essentially saying that iq 146 kids (1/300) did not nail the question. This is assuming the population was symmetric in distribution, whereas there surely must have been a lower iq threshold of say 95. Even otherwise, a 1/1000 rarity among whites and kids couldn't do that problem? Hmmmm ..."12/11/12 4:08 PM<br /> and<br />“Anonymous said...<br />The math taught in high school tends to actually be applied math, not pure math. It's not surprising that most students can't derive the quadratic equation."12/11/12 4:47 PM<br /><br />If these kids actually were incapable of understanding the quadratic derivation they had to have been 1) robbed of a primary and secondary education, or 2) dumb as posts. Take your pick.<br /><br />Graduated from HS in 1959. Anyone who got through Algebra II HAD TO UNDERSTAND how to complete the square to get through the first semester. It is not applied math but elementary algebra. It is not that hard. Go to the Kahn Academy and watch a tutorial on the topic or read this article:<br />http://www.basic-mathematics.com/proof-of-the-quadratic-formula.html<br /><br />Applied math ( which existed only on the graduate school level ) centered on matrix algebra used to solve simultaneous differential equations when I went through the system in the 1960s. Applied math was taught to engineers and scientists so that one could solve problems using math. Applied math gives one intellectual Tools to do the work an engineer and scientist needs to be a success in his career.<br /> <br />Dan KurtDan Kurthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08252444956956894276noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-62369267044933780512012-12-11T17:37:11.322-08:002012-12-11T17:37:11.322-08:00"Harvard, and similar schools, are not in the...<i>"Harvard, and similar schools, are not in the business of admitting the smartest people they can find. They're in the business of admitting the people who are most likely to benefit Harvard in the future. And the way they figure that out might, just might, differ group by group."</i><br /><br />And this is why Gordon Gee persuaded Vanderbilt to discriminate in favor of Jewish students, tripling their numbers in the space of an Olympiad.<br /><br />Jews now qualify as legacy admits, as special cases (sports, music, etc.), and as the children of major donors. Asian-Americans have only their high grades and test scores.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-90130693358428998532012-12-11T16:47:26.893-08:002012-12-11T16:47:26.893-08:00The math taught in high school tends to actually b...The math taught in high school tends to actually be applied math, not pure math. It's not surprising that most students can't derive the quadratic equation.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-28813582311711823062012-12-11T16:08:42.873-08:002012-12-11T16:08:42.873-08:00i"n seven years and probably 300 kids I have ...i"n seven years and probably 300 kids I have never once had a student who could explain the derivation of the quadratic formula (that is, the generalized case for completing the square).."<br /><br />Sounds very implausible. If those kids had an average iq of 105 then you're essentially saying that iq 146 kids (1/300) did not nail the question. This is assuming the population was symmetric in distribution, whereas there surely must have been a lower iq threshold of say 95. Even otherwise, a 1/1000 rarity among whites and kids couldn't do that problem? Hmmmm ...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-8168577374483439312012-12-11T15:23:12.608-08:002012-12-11T15:23:12.608-08:00The future of testing will arrive when somebody co...<i> The future of testing will arrive when somebody comes up with a test that Asians can't crush whites on. <br /><br />In theory, blacks and whites could wind up on the same side on testing reform. Some clever Park Slope SWPL might someday come up with a new test that cuts down on Asian advantage over whites and then push it through because blacks do relatively better on it than on old tests.</i><br /><br />An exam that somehow tests the same skills required for public debate would satisfy this criteria.Corneliusnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-22315682663289309702012-12-11T14:53:53.437-08:002012-12-11T14:53:53.437-08:00They are overrepresented in universities, particul...<i>They are overrepresented in universities, particularly public universities, because of their dominance in GPA, not because of their test scores. I agree that they are underrepresented in elite private universities relatives to their test scores; that is well documented.</i><br /><br />"Overrepresented in universities" means that the Asian proportion of university student bodies is higher than the Asian proportion of the general population.<br /><br />Asians are underrepresented relative to their test scores. This means that the current Asian proportion of university student bodies is lower than what it would be if Asians weren't underrepresented relative to their test scores. <br /><br />I don't know if there have been studies on representation relative to GPA. It may for all we know be the case that Asians are underrepresented relative to GPA as well.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-85464701767174524962012-12-11T14:40:10.654-08:002012-12-11T14:40:10.654-08:00This isn't my original line, but I can't r...This isn't my original line, but I can't remember where I heard it so I can't give credit: Harvard is a hedge fund with a side business in education. Jews may be over-represented at Harvard, but they're also over-represented in the United States' business elite, which reflects well on Harvard and provides them with massive amounts of money they can then donate to Harvard. Asians are also over-represented at Harvard, but that hasn't translated to nearly as much success after school. Harvard has definitely noticed this, and is redeploying capital to better uses.<br /><br />Harvard, and similar schools, are not in the business of admitting the smartest people they can find. They're in the business of admitting the people who are most likely to benefit Harvard in the future. And the way they figure that out might, just might, differ group by group.Husker Don'tnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-39362690040209980682012-12-11T14:27:54.293-08:002012-12-11T14:27:54.293-08:00Cui Bono?
There will be NO ZERO ZILCH NADA NONE r...Cui Bono?<br /><br />There will be NO ZERO ZILCH NADA NONE reform of test scores, admissions process, and the pattern of Ivy League admissions (or other universities down the line as commenter Sunbeam notes) because it benefits the Elite as they now stand.<br /><br />What is a major problem for most to conceptualize is the elite is not exactly like the English Landed aristocracy. The Elite is quite willing to take on the son of a Nigerian transport minister at an elite level, who then creates massive trading losses (at UBS) or the Red Princes and Princesses of China or say, Barack Hussein Obama. But it won't take on either Jim Bob Rural from Nebraska or Menachem Orthodox from Blue Collar Staten Island. It certainly will take a Buffet or say, a Speilberg.<br /><br />Fair and open selection of talented people by Ivy League and other universities, and employers, is a DAGGER TO THE HEART of the GLOBAL ARISTOCRACY. And those who hope to join it, principally White women who cannot get enough of kings, princes, and global celebrities (and fantasize Lena Dunham style about sex with them).<br /><br />That's why Korean Rapper Psy faces no real backlash for rapping about killing Americans and US military -- ordinary people ARE the enemy.<br /><br />What is needed is to "burn it all down." Destroy totally the University system, by first and foremost flooding Harvard with as many Black people as possible. Make Harvard admit say, 85% of its student body as Blacks, and people with merit and skill will flock to online certification via places like Stanford, MIT, Caltech, and possibly Oxford, Cambridge, Humboldt, Milan, and other old European universities.<br /><br />Whiskeyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01854764809682029464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-49090871316558597322012-12-11T14:25:04.480-08:002012-12-11T14:25:04.480-08:00"Good essay tests would do a lot to even the ..."Good essay tests would do a lot to even the playing field between whites and Asians. Check out the AP score distributions for English Lit/Lang & Comp/US History compared to math and science scores. And writing an essay about math and science? Worst of both worlds."<br /><br />Yes, but why is the number of Asian National Merit semifinalists so disproportionate? This test should be biased in favor of whites since the selection index double weights the verbal score.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-46835809675291945482012-12-11T14:15:02.220-08:002012-12-11T14:15:02.220-08:00FAO Anthony:
I would be confident in the opinion ...FAO Anthony:<br /><br />I would be confident in the opinion that getting that 3.5 from Berkeley or any good state school in the top 50 would be tougher than Stanford or H or Y.<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com