tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post7265835220715656703..comments2024-03-28T16:22:14.888-07:00Comments on Steve Sailer: iSteve: How to use AP classes to get your kid into BerkeleyUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger103125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-57501752984340592582009-08-01T03:25:29.302-07:002009-08-01T03:25:29.302-07:00China’s College Entry Test Is an Obsession
"...<a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/13/world/asia/13exam.html" rel="nofollow">China’s College Entry Test Is an Obsession</a><br /><br />"For the past year, Liu Qichao has focused on one thing, and only one thing: the gao kao, or the high test.<br /><br />"Fourteen to 16 hours a day, he studied for the college entrance examination, which this year will determine the fate of more than 10 million Chinese students. He took one day off every three weeks...."Junnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-19256117226704397032009-07-23T08:51:41.702-07:002009-07-23T08:51:41.702-07:00Most Asian countries are much less represented at ...<i>Most Asian countries are much less represented at the far ends of the bell curve compared to white nations. Even Japan (which was industrialized for most of the 20th century) has only 1/10th as many Nobel prizes per capita as the USA.</i><br /><br />That's a highly flawed method of judging intelligence. It should go without saying that Europe and the United States dominated ALL of the early years of the Nobel Prize (first awarded in 1901). It also includes irrelevant categories for this discussion, such as the Nobel Prize for Peace (the much maligned Nelson Mandela is a recipient of this, so all you white nationalists here should temper your enthusiasm for this one). It would be more accurate to look at the recent results of science based awards, and here Japanese are strong.<br /><br />Chemistry: 4 in 10 years. Germany and the UK combined have a greater population than Japan, together they have 2.<br /><br />Physics: 4 in 10 years. Germany and the UK combined: 5.<br /><br />The white dominance is clearly slowing as years pass. Asians came up big in the most recent round of high end awards.<br /><br />2008 Nobel Prize in Physics: All 3 awards won by Japanese.<br /><br />2008 Nobel Prize in Chemistry: 1 Chinese, 1 Japanese, 1 white.<br /><br />2006 Fields Medal (highest award for mathematics): 1 Chinese, 3 whites.<br /><br />Someone already mentioned the Asian dominance at the 2009 International Math Olympiad, and I'm having trouble finding the exact results of the Physics Olympiad, but it looks like another Chinese domination. It was lopsided the previous year as well.<br /><br />2008 IMO: All 3 perfect scorers were Chinese.<br /><br />2008 International Physics Olympiad: Another Chinese sweep, with individuals winning top overall score, top score in theory, and top score in experimental.<br /><br />China is going to be lagging behind in Nobels for a while, because the facilities, funding, and experience conducting world class research isn't close to the level of the West. They have only very recently begun to make significant investments in R&D.<br /><br />Anyway, I'm not advocating Asian supremacy here, I like both Asians and whites! Egalitarians are out of control claiming environment is the cause of everything, but guess what? You guys go too far with your "genes explain everything" too.MacSweeneynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-640053615107499402009-07-23T05:57:52.106-07:002009-07-23T05:57:52.106-07:00Because everyone knows that "movements",...Because everyone knows that "movements", religious, social, political or otherwise, spring from joy and contentment vis-a-vis the status quo. What you call "reasonable" whites are only able to exist right now due to the current environment, which is changing even as I type these words.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-32268319987593145692009-07-22T21:54:28.022-07:002009-07-22T21:54:28.022-07:00"The surfeit of mean-spiritedness and haughti..."The surfeit of mean-spiritedness and haughtiness chokes the movement before it can grow to fruition. It is sad."<br /><br />You, know, it really, really is sad.Truthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17286755693955361308noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-82341730243154351422009-07-22T21:17:55.701-07:002009-07-22T21:17:55.701-07:00The whole "my kids should get preferential tr...<i>The whole "my kids should get preferential treatment to good schools, because some guy who looked like them built them 300 years ago" thing is a great argument for reparations if you think about it.</i><br /><br />300 years ago??<br /><br />How long ago was 1980, when the non-hispanic white population in the U.S. was 79.7%?<br /><br />Or 1990, when it was 75.6?<br />Or 2000, when it was 69.1?<br /><br />Just when was it that the U.S. university system became as good as it is today? Last year?Chrisnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-90869896527392051282009-07-22T19:53:59.201-07:002009-07-22T19:53:59.201-07:00Uh, not so much, for the simple reason that black ...<i>Uh, not so much, for the simple reason that black Americans are much richer than Africans. It was those same white guys 300 years ago who built the institutions that eventually made that possible. If anything, black folks owe whites rent.</i><br /><br />I now understand the reason that HBD discussion cannot get off the ground and go mainstream. Comments as the one above put off most reasonable whites (and others). The surfeit of mean-spiritedness and haughtiness chokes the movement before it can grow to fruition. It is sad.DAJnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-66906881795390684992009-07-22T19:45:58.586-07:002009-07-22T19:45:58.586-07:00Wow, this is a popular thread. Judging by the Int...Wow, this is a popular thread. Judging by the International Math Competition results and last year's Nobel laureates, I'm predicting this will be the "Asian Century".Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-76327001453186840442009-07-22T19:38:56.711-07:002009-07-22T19:38:56.711-07:00The whole "my kids should get preferential tr...<i>The whole "my kids should get preferential treatment to good schools, because some guy who looked like them built them 300 years ago" thing is a great argument for reparations if you think about it.</i><br /><br />I agree. When blacks cry for reparations because their dead co-ethnics were enslaved by whites some two hundred years ago, whites on this site decry such an assertion as ludicrous and unjust. Oddly, these selfsame guys are now advocating reparations for whites in the form of easier admission into UC because their dead co-ethnics founded the schools one to two hundred years ago. In other words, both liberal blacks and paleoconservative whites espouse unearned reward based on race. They are opposite sides of the same coin.DAJnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-56093290899594881232009-07-22T19:19:17.587-07:002009-07-22T19:19:17.587-07:00" I could date all of the white girls that I ..." I could date all of the white girls that I wanted, except for the trashy and super-slutty ones."<br /><br />Ummm... You do realise that those ones are the easiest ones to 'date'?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-79108159290284385822009-07-22T18:36:01.747-07:002009-07-22T18:36:01.747-07:00Who cares if marginally more academically inclined...<i>Who cares if marginally more academically inclined Asians 'merit' admission more than whites. Sorry, but the white folks that, you know, actually conquered California -- and their kin and descendants -- have the right to see the institutions they created continue to serve their posterity.</i><br /><br />So is affirmative action wrong or not?DAJnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-79313851600581119542009-07-22T18:14:07.295-07:002009-07-22T18:14:07.295-07:00Truth said...
The whole "my kids should get ...<i>Truth said... <br />The whole "my kids should get preferential treatment to good schools, because some guy who looked like them built them 300 years ago" thing is a great argument for reparations if you think about it.<br /><br />Touché. Score one for Truth. Sometimes--not often, but sometimes--he brings it.</i><br /><br />Uh, not so much, for the simple reason that black Americans are much richer than Africans. It was those same white guys 300 years ago who built the institutions that eventually made that possible. If anything, black folks owe whites rent.stari_momaknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-4291505694275185552009-07-22T18:08:58.829-07:002009-07-22T18:08:58.829-07:00Actually, pzed, the Conquest of California was fai...Actually, pzed, the Conquest of California was fairly bloodless, with the Californios putting up enough resistance to satisfy honor. Then, once we had the territory, we set about building the institutions that exist today, including the UC. Several generations of mostly white Californians, and indeed Americans as the UC gets funding from a variety of nationwide programs, built the schools. There was simply no reason why we have to hand them or the state over to Asians. In fact, we should emulate Korea (which seems to be your ancestral homeland, and allow virtually no immigration.stari_momaknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-65055028163864520482009-07-22T17:08:00.635-07:002009-07-22T17:08:00.635-07:00This is really sad and hypocritical as the defende...This is really sad and hypocritical as the defenders of the meritocracy when it comes to "NAMs" suddenly feel that a student's "unquantifiable potential" (to win a Nobel even) should be taken into consideration when evaluating whites and folks like myself. Incidentally I think the folks who have the potential to win a Nobel Prize are going to be accepted anyway (no matter what there race, with or without affirmative action).<br /><br />Second point, you people act like there aren't any white folks being accepted into the UCs. Last time I checked the major UC campuses still had a significant population of whites. Ya'll are not being "dispossessed of your birthright." It's just that some of you might just have to work a little harder to keep it. But hey, competition is good right?<br /><br />Oh and Testy the Deranged...I know that was supposed to be satire but it took me a while to realize it :DPissed Off Chinamannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-60232946794830673642009-07-22T16:55:26.052-07:002009-07-22T16:55:26.052-07:00I'm an East Asian guy who was too much of a ne...I'm an East Asian guy who was too much of a nerd to date at all until late in college. But once I figured out how to game the "dating game" I could date all of the white girls that I wanted, except for the trashy and super-slutty ones. This was way easier to figure out than the SAT, the ACT, the APs, or the ASVAB. It was easy: I just followed Steve's instructions--act white and be successful. Happily, because most white guys are too busy listening to rap music, wearing their pants around their knees, playing video games and/or smoking pot, being iSteve-white is easier than it sounds.Asian Guy with White Girlsnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-56425860807372266142009-07-22T16:06:13.097-07:002009-07-22T16:06:13.097-07:00"About a year ago, I looked at which scores N..."About a year ago, I looked at which scores National Merit Scholar Semifinalists went to. Less than 1 in 15 went to an Ivy. State schools got most of them, so clearly there are a lot of talented people not going to Ivies and similar schools."<br /><br />There are 15k semi-finalists per year. That is not exactly a hyper-elite group.<br /><br />If you set the threshold high enough (e.g., top thousand seniors in the country) you will find that the elite schools get more than all other schools combined. That was perhaps not the case 20 years ago, but it is now.<br /><br />http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Merit_Scholarship_ProgramAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-5205914335837534532009-07-22T15:44:47.337-07:002009-07-22T15:44:47.337-07:00Truth said...
The whole "my kids should get ...<i>Truth said... <br />The whole "my kids should get preferential treatment to good schools, because some guy who looked like them built them 300 years ago" thing is a great argument for reparations if you think about it.</i><br /><br />Touché. Score one for Truth. Sometimes--not often, but sometimes--he brings it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-38492358173277997612009-07-22T14:23:18.628-07:002009-07-22T14:23:18.628-07:00Simon said:
“I suspect, going by Lynn's work o...Simon said:<br />“I suspect, going by Lynn's work on IQ, that the NE Asians (Chinese, Japanese & Korean) do have a slightly higher median competence than the whites, though not to the extent of the disparity in UCLA admissions.”<br /><br />One thing I noticed about Lynn’s meta-analyses showing higher average East Asian IQ is that on the larger, more representative samples, such as the standardizations of the Wechsler, Kauffman (KABC, KAIT), McCarthy, DAT, DAB, the NLSY’s AFQT (although small sample in that case) tests, and some of the larger Raven’s standardizations in East Asian Countries as well as the US, East Asians don’t tend to have IQs in the 106 range as Lynn and Rushton repeatedly claim. They seem to do better than whites, but usually in the 101 to 104 range and also show a marked difference in verbal and visuospatial IQ. The higher scores, in the 106 + range seem more questionable, often from small or select populations. For instance, Lynn includes a study by Geary asserting that Chinese have a 113 IQ based on samples of students at an American and a Chinese University (i.e., using the US college students as a norm, the Chinese students scored nearly 1 SD better). How is this comparison worthwhile? It all depends on which University in each country you look at. Also, Lynn reports high scores (105-110+) for samples of school children in Tokyo, Shanghai, Hong Kong, Singapore, and Taiwan. From his data, I have no problem believing that the average IQ in these urban financial and political centers is around 106 or even higher. However, are they representative of NE Asian Mongoloids as a whole? I would image that the white population of Washington D.C., or many European capitals, also has an IQ above 100. For instance, Lynn cites Buj’s 1981 study of IQs in various European capitals using the Cattell Culture Fair Test. Lynn gives the IQs for Bonn, Amsterdam, and Warsaw as 107, 107, and 106 respectively, which is much higher than any of the norming studies on Germany, Holland or Poland have ever shown. Again, I think Lynn is correct that East Asian Mongoloids are higher in g than European Caucasoids, but I think he tends to be a bit sloppy on his selection of studies and sometimes exaggerates his conclusions.<br /><br />The more interesting question is how white and East Asian populations compare with respect to their population variance in g. I have been able to find surprisingly little info on this. Seligman way back in his book on IQ in the early 90s claimed that the Wechsler standardizations in Japan show an SD of slightly under 13 compared to an American SD of 15, although it was unclear if he was referring only to whites or Americans in general (where large racial gaps would tend to widen the SD compared to homogenous Japan). Steve Hsu, on the other hand, analyzed the SDs on PISA scores and found that, if anything, East Asians had a slightly wider SD than whites. However, I am not completely convinced by this is as dispositive as Hsu thinks. Although PISA scores are highly correlated with g (see Rindermann), it seems probable that the character of the education system could influence the variance on these tests. If students are tracked by ability and rigorously educated to their potential, not only will the average improve, but the SD will widen as the more able students get more out of increased investment in their education. From what I have read and heard, this seems to be how East Asian educational systems work. In the egalitarian West/US, we play to the lowest common denominator and tend to dumb things down to accommodate the slower students. Even though motivated parents are attempting to get around this by de facto tracking in AP or honors classes, we in the West probably compress our population variance on academic achievement tests due to the pernicious effect of egalitarian dogma on our educational systems.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-51956122178415666852009-07-22T14:22:32.710-07:002009-07-22T14:22:32.710-07:00Anon:
“How do you explain the overrepresentation o...Anon:<br />“How do you explain the overrepresentation of Asians at places like MIT and Caltech, where test scores play a very important role in the admissions process?”<br /><br />Even though the data is by now somewhat dated, I notice looking in the “Bell Curve” that at elite institutions, Asians tend to slightly outscore whites on the SAT, whereas at state lower ranked state institutions the pattern is reversed, with whites doing better. About a year ago, I looked at which scores National Merit Scholar Semifinalists went to. Less than 1 in 15 went to an Ivy. State schools got most of them, so clearly there are a lot of talented people not going to Ivies and similar schools. So, to answer your question, you have to look at motivation: how much do people from different ethnic and religious groups value the prestige of a highly ranked elite university versus the much lesser cost of a state honors program with a substantial scholarship. From what I have observed (admittedly anecdotal), Asians, Jews, and old line elite WASPs (Episcopalians, etc.) place much greater emphasis on academic prestige than white non-elite Protestants (Scots-Irish, etc.) or ethnic Catholics. Even though the density of highly talented individuals is higher in the academic prestige valuing groups, the later groups are much more numerous. I would bet that the top scoring Asians (and Jews and elite WASPs) are far more likely to place value on gaining admission to and to attend elite Universities than generic whites matched for g/SAT scores. Put another way, a much higher portion of Asians, Jews, Episcopalians, etc. that have the requisite g to attend an elite university do so (and pay the excessive price just to say, “my son goes to Harvard).<br /><br />Sabril said:<br />“Is the West doing enough to make sure that a decent number of brilliant and creative people are channelled into situations where their brilliance can benefit the whole human race?”<br /><br />I share your concerns. Look at all those people with high quant skills that go work in the financial industry (how’s that working out?) instead of the sciences.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-35062201640415658902009-07-22T14:20:52.559-07:002009-07-22T14:20:52.559-07:00DAJ said:
When whites outperform blacks on promoti...DAJ said:<br />When whites outperform blacks on promotional exams, such as in the case of Ricci, black leaders characterize the act of studying diligently for a test as "gaming the system." When Asians outperform whites on admissions to UC due to superior GPAs in AP courses, Steve Sailer characterizes such diligent studying as "gaming the system."<br /><br />You and others here misunderstand the point. It is not Asians fault for “gaming the system.” The point is that the system itself is the problem. Look at the prediction/validation studies yourself. Highly g loaded measures (like the SAT, SAT II (achievement tests) or ACT) are by far the best predictors of performance (both academic and job). HSGPA is so variable from class to class and school to school that it isn’t that g-loaded and adds very little to the predictive validity over and above g-loaded tests. (That it even adds a little is probably because it shows conscientiousness.) It is also much easier to improve than one’s performance on g-loaded tests relative to one’s peers. There’s probably no point in giving a college education to people below the 80th or 90th percentile in g. By emphasizing low-g measures for university admission, you end up selecting people whose g, even if they are motivated students, is below the probability threshold that they can master the material in a technical field.<br />Steve’s point is that the current system has deemphasized highly g-loaded measures to help lower g NAMs gain more admissions to university and that Asians were the unintentional the main beneficiaries. There’s nothing wrong with Asians’ higher conscientiousness causing them to surpass whites more in the less g-loaded measure of HSGPA than on higher g-loaded aptitude tests (where they have an advantage, but only a modest one), but when selecting the people who should be getting a college level education, it is the g-loaded tests that are the better gatekeeper.<br /><br />Mitch is almost certainly correct when he wrote:<br />“Remember, if they just used test scores with a less weighted GPA, whites enrollment would almost certainly go up. The problem is that they can't unweight the GPA without losing their cover for affirmative action.”<br /><br />The Ricci case is qualitatively different. In fact, you accuse Steve of hypocrisy when he is in fact arguing against the same thing: the City of New Haven was trying to do exactly the same thing as UC – deemphasize a better measure of g (and better predictor of job performance) for more subjective, less g-loaded (and, hence, less predictive) criteria.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-82206838936908038252009-07-22T11:40:04.433-07:002009-07-22T11:40:04.433-07:00To all who accuse Steve of abandoning meritocracy:...To all who accuse Steve of abandoning meritocracy:<br /><br />Do you really believe that merits are best measured (to the tune of 75%) by the high-school GPA, despite all the quirks that Steve has documented? If merits means "politically correct preference," then I guess it works out perfectly. Girls are more meritorious than boys; 1000 in the hood beats 1200 in the burb; a 5 in Human Geography trumps a 4 in Physics C. <br /><br />In such a meritocracy, New Haven fire fighters would choose what exams they want to take, which would then be graded separately by neighborhood. I doubt Rev. Kimber would have a problem with that, though Ricci might. <br /><br />Personally, I would rather define merits as the contribution to society that a prospective student is likely to make with the training and prestige provided by the institution. There's no perfect way to measure that, but a straightforward combination of 50% SAT and 50% of ungamed GPA (ideally adjusted for competitiveness) would be vastly superior to the current Californian system. <br /><br />That is not to say that the percentage of Asians at Berkeley would drop under the new criteria. It may very well increase. But at least, high-school students, Asian or otherwise, would be spending their energy on taking their classes rather than choosing them. <br /><br />Steve seems to think that whites should be better represented if colleges are looking for seeds of Nobel-worthy researches and world-changing innovations (which they should be). I tend to agree. But besides using the SAT and GPA as an imperfect proxy, there's no way to select for potential on a large scale without openning a whole can of subjective worms. <br /><br />Tom V<br /><br />PS Dog of Justice, another Asian and a Caltech grad, once <a href="http://isteve.blogspot.com/2009/05/why-not-also-give-ap-tests-in-september.html" rel="nofollow">remarked on this very blog</a> that Asians test significantly better than whites despite having only slightly higher average IQ. He wanted to "stop the madness." Apparently he doesn't equate GPA with competence. I tend to agree.Tom Vnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-48618699976753830442009-07-22T08:40:25.667-07:002009-07-22T08:40:25.667-07:00"Sorry, but the white folks that, you know, a..."Sorry, but the white folks that, you know, actually conquered California -- and their kin and descendants -- have the right to see the institutions they created continue to serve their posterity."<br /><br />it's funny you choose to state things that way. whites killed a bunch of non-whites and you think that gives whites a perpetual "right" to what they have or had?<br /><br />there's no such thing. even assuming this "right" existed, the only way to preserve a right is to fight for it any time it's challenged. whites in california aren't succeeding in a system they created themselves.<br /><br />if you whites don't like it, then maybe you should tell your kids to study harder. asians will happily displace (conquer) you in californa's higher ed system in the meantime.pzedhttp://undeadastronauts.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-64963768690507491882009-07-22T07:14:41.452-07:002009-07-22T07:14:41.452-07:00The whole "my kids should get preferential tr...The whole "my kids should get preferential treatment to good schools, because some guy who looked like them built them 300 years ago" thing is a great argument for reparations if you think about it.Truthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17286755693955361308noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-75552042618020242032009-07-22T06:17:24.900-07:002009-07-22T06:17:24.900-07:00All white women (except Sarah Palin, of course) ha...All white women (except Sarah Palin, of course) have <i>literally</i> split open the chests of their sons and made burnt offerings of their still-beating hearts on the altar of the dark Alpha Male Cock God, in return for which evil service they are permitted to join His harem and appointed to affirmative-action sinecures free of any white beta male contamination. This is why the few surviving remnants of maledom must band together, subdue the fiendish harpy horde through a relentless campaign of suitcase nukings, and set the world right again by forcing these sultry demonesses onto breeding farms run by the victorious white beta male warriors. To the barricades, comrades!Testy the Derangednoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-71298347338454240892009-07-22T02:35:36.701-07:002009-07-22T02:35:36.701-07:00Professor McUCLA said...
"Whites sure aren&#...Professor McUCLA said...<br /><br />"Whites sure aren't."<br /><br />Not preserving it <i>now</i> and being capable of preserving it are two different things. They made it, of course they are capable of preserving it. Decadence overcomes any civilization at some point. That doesn't mean we should die off, or become Brazil. Perhaps the question should have been: Can anyone but whites revive western civilization?Beastmasternoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-69550758616418631382009-07-22T01:47:35.064-07:002009-07-22T01:47:35.064-07:00Steve should decide whether he wants to advocate W...Steve should decide whether he wants to advocate White Nationalism or not. <br /><br />Sometimes he almost seems to be making the case for White Nationalism, but then he later steps away from that position.<br /><br />I think in the future, whites probably will have to practice some form of White Nationalism in order to keep from getting trampled by other ethnic groups. <br /><br />Steve's citizenism just doesn't make sense in a country where every other ethnic group practices ethnic nationalism.king obamanoreply@blogger.com