tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post7282832517349670162..comments2024-03-29T05:14:33.223-07:00Comments on Steve Sailer: iSteve: "The Creativity Crisis"Unknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger118125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-32382262560961891292010-07-17T16:59:47.510-07:002010-07-17T16:59:47.510-07:00Er, whoops, been juggling numbers all day and had ...Er, whoops, been juggling numbers all day and had a big brain fart there. Meant to say that there's got to be 200 million with IQs over 120 in India and China alone. Don't know how I clicked submit on that one...Svigorhttp://majorityrights.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-18360859935615379412010-07-16T18:36:28.114-07:002010-07-16T18:36:28.114-07:00I've found a perfect example of the phenomenon...I've found a perfect example of the phenomenon I was trying to describe in my earlier comment (about #11 or so in this long thread) in which I suggested that one reason for the drop in creativity is the relentless, mindless democratization of ideas in progressive eduction theory. All ideas are equal, full stop. God forbid you actually have a better one than someone else. It will be lost -- no, <i>buried</i> -- in the process described <a href="http://blog.coreknowledge.org/2010/07/16/group-brainstorming-an-educational-nutshell/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+TheCoreKnowledgeBlog+%28The+Core+Knowledge+Blog%29" rel="nofollow">here</a>.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-80894039683502440412010-07-16T15:39:45.661-07:002010-07-16T15:39:45.661-07:00End Creativity Crisis- TEACHING FOR CREATIVE OUTCO...End Creativity Crisis- TEACHING FOR CREATIVE OUTCOMES: WHY WE DON'T, HOW WE ALL CAN!<br /><br />Excerpted and adapted from: Manzo/Manzo/Thomas § Content Area Literacy: A Framework for Reading-Based Instruction (5th edition) Wiley (2009)<br />Websites: 1.http://teacherprofessoraccountability.ning.com/main/invitation/new?xg_source=msg_wel_network 2. http://bestmethodsofinstruction.com/ and 3. a new site for detailing some professional teaching methods for Professional Teachers: http://anthony-manzo.blogspot.com/2010/05/brief-writing-for-thoughtful-righting.html<br />Anthony V. Manzo, Ph.D.<br /><br />avmanzo@aol.com<br /> <br />See remainder at URL aboveAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-82227105116645100682010-07-16T15:38:07.872-07:002010-07-16T15:38:07.872-07:00End Creativity Crisis- TEACHING FOR CREATIVE OUTCO...End Creativity Crisis- TEACHING FOR CREATIVE OUTCOMES: WHY WE DON'T, HOW WE ALL CAN!<br /><br />Excerpted and adapted from: Manzo/Manzo/Thomas § Content Area Literacy: A Framework for Reading-Based Instruction (5th edition) Wiley (2009)<br />Websites: 1.http://teacherprofessoraccountability.ning.com/main/invitation/new?xg_source=msg_wel_network 2. http://bestmethodsofinstruction.com/ and 3. a new site for detailing some professional teaching methods for Professional Teachers: http://anthony-manzo.blogspot.com/2010/05/brief-writing-for-thoughtful-righting.html<br />Anthony V. Manzo, Ph.D.<br /><br />avmanzo@aol.com<br /><br />It is ironic that the act of passing on prior inventions and discoveries, or acquired knowledge, seems to diminish the inclination to think creatively. Clearly, the mind is empowered by acquiring the experiences and knowledge accumulated by our predecessors; however, it also can be powerfully constrained by the way in which knowledge is transmitted. In point of fact, there appears to be a host of subtle but pervasive factors woven through the fabric of traditional schooling that tend actually to discourage the type of critical analysis--the thoughtful articulation and decomposition of a problem--that leads to constructive thinking. I take constructive thinking to be the composition and assembly of possible solutions, including some that may need to be invented. Constructive thinking, then, includes both "critical" and "creative" intellectual processes. <br />Factors That Discourage Constructive Thinking <br /><br /> <br />See remainder at URL aboveAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-81347387331429095632010-07-14T13:10:21.420-07:002010-07-14T13:10:21.420-07:00catperson
What makes you think that undernourishe...<i>catperson<br /><br />What makes you think that undernourished people are not represented in the IQ samples and would makes you assume that the middle class and even upper class is not suffering from sub-optimum nutrition too?</i><br /><br />Common sense and facts show that malnutrition in India if probably as unequally distributed in India as wealth and IQ. Most middle class and above Indians are adequately if not over nurished with household servant and such while the masses of lower IQ untouchables suffer the most.<br /><br /><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malnutrition_in_India#Patterns.2C_distribution.2C_and_determinants_of_under-_and_overnutrition:_a_population-based_study_of_women_in_india" rel="nofollow">From Wikipedia</a><br /><br />After the section discussing 43% prevalence of Malnutrition in India we have this section:<br /><br /><i>Overnutrition<br /><br />At the same time as a large number of population suffers from malnutrition, more than 100 million people (11% of Indian population) in India are over-nourished.[8] Over-nutrition can be defined as consuming either too much calories or the wrong types of calories such as saturated fat, trans fat or highly refined sugar which leads to obesity and many other chronic diseases.[9] For example, there are over 30 million people with diabetics in 1985 and by next year (2010) India is projected to have 50.8 million diabetics.[10] India is hence considered as the country with the largest population of diabetics.[11] This diabetes (diabetes mellitus) is one of the diseases closely associated with overweight.[12] The direct cause of overweight in India would be lack of physical activity due to sedentary life style, loss of traditional diet, faulty diet, high stress etc.[10] Over-nutrition is most prevalent in the cities among affluences[13] from demographic transition due to sudden economic growth in India. This tells that indirect, underlying cause of over-nutrition would be significantly high rate of economic growth.</i><br /><br />The net effect on India's estimated IQ may be minimal or a wash since the middle and upper class are hugely overrepresented in test takers, especially for those required to proceed to higher levels of education. Anyone have any figures?The Love Gurunoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-54567207360120185202010-07-14T11:42:35.210-07:002010-07-14T11:42:35.210-07:00"The only people who were successful against ..."The only people who were successful against Europeans were the East Asians (Mongols, Huns etc…) as they had an even higher IQ."<br /><br />Mongol barbarians also conquered China and Persia. I guess they were smarter than the Chinese and Persians. <br />Germanic barbarians conquered Rome. I guess they were smarter than the Romans. <br />Assyrians conquered ancient Israel. I guess they were smarter than the Jews. <br />Russians beat the Germans in WWII. I guess Russians are smarter than the Germans. <br /><br />Blacks have been taking over city by city, town by town and driving whites out. I guess they are smarter than whites. <br />Mexican illegals have been taking over the SW territories. I guess they are smarter. <br /><br />Conquests throughout history wasn't just a matter of smarts but of will, martial culture, ruthlessness, and discipline.<br />And depending on the culture, even a smart people could be technologically behind people who were no smarter or even less smart. The smart Jews, for instance, due to their religious orthodoxy, wasn't as venturous in science and technology like the Greeks and Romans and were militarily no match for them. Today, Jews are at the forefront of military technology, especially in computerized warfare, cuz their minds are fully open to all ideas.sdfsadfsdfanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-10579662286034011492010-07-14T10:29:52.249-07:002010-07-14T10:29:52.249-07:00@ Ganpat Sathe:
"What does population base,...@ Ganpat Sathe: <br /><br />"What does population base, IQ and time lines have to do with the fact that R&B, Jazz and hip hop is rubbish compared to traditional Indian music or old Bollywood music?"<br /><br />Stop spouting bullshit. You're obviously a tard with no understanding of how variables are controlled for. <br /><br />"In never denied the fact that Bollywood does copy music from outside India but how much of a percentage is that compared to all music produced here."<br /><br />You brought up that shining example of creativity - Bollywood - and failed to show any examples of creativity there. Then you brought in Indian music which, you claim, is superior to "R&B, Jazz and hip hop [which are] rubbish compared to traditional Indian music or old Bollywood music?" <br /><br />Throw Rock in there, too. I'll call your BS here because it's not unusual to have Indians blather on about matters that they know nothing of. So what makes them rubbish and what structural deficiencies does Ganpat Sathe find in those forms of music ?<br /> <br />"Yeah right, a civilization which is 5000 years old is filth while a culture where ugly black women shake their booty is good."<br /><br />Racist much? Apply some Fair and Lovely and then calm down.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-72123003834271249232010-07-14T02:32:58.331-07:002010-07-14T02:32:58.331-07:00@catperson
"But they have an extremely small ...@catperson<br />"But they have an extremely small population in India so they hardly have much of an opportunity to develop much of a culture."<br /> I doubt that had they been a much larger population, the would have had any significant effect on Indian culture.<br /><br />"Since Indians living in India average IQ 82, then we can conclude that with first world nutrition, the would score 82 + 20 = 102."<br /><br />The Indian IQ of 82 is not of its undernourished but of the middle clases. So do not expect any magical increase to European levels. Besides that American blacks have White and possibly Native American ancestry which Siddis do not.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-51617336980116390272010-07-14T01:40:26.660-07:002010-07-14T01:40:26.660-07:00In India there are a black people called the Siddi...<i>In India there are a black people called the Siddis who have descended from Arab slaves who were given freedom by the British Raj. <br />They sing, dance and make merry but the average Indian is hardly impressed and just consider them a primitive people with primitive tastes.</i><br /><br />But they have an extremely small population in India so they hardly have much of an opportunity to develop much of a culture. <br /><br />It would be fascinating to know the average IQ's of the Siddis. Blacks living in Africa average IQ 67 but Blacks in America average IQ 80-90 depending on the degree of white admixture. The 13 point gap between "pure" blacks in America and "pure" black Africans tells us that African malnutrition stunts IQ by 13 points. But malnutrition in India is even worse, so comparing the IQ's of "pure" black Siddis with "pure" black Americans would tell us how much malnutrition in India stunts IQ. If the "pure" black Siddis have an IQ of 60 for example (20 points below "Pure" black Americans), then Indian malnutrition stunts IQ by 20 points. Since Indians living in India average IQ 82, then we can conclude that with first world nutrition, the would score 82 + 20 = 102.catpersonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00648652809818262153noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-4329643429988418132010-07-13T23:53:01.070-07:002010-07-13T23:53:01.070-07:00catperson said
"Ganpat Sathe, please take the...catperson said<br />"Ganpat Sathe, please take the time to understand my theory before disputing it. I am not saying that blacks are more creative than whites and East Asians, I am saying that controlling for IQ they are more creative. When you compare creativity in hip hop to creativity in science and technology, you are not controlling for IQ."<br /><br /> Catman, Africans are creative controlled for IQ in only few fields such as music or dance and that is subjective at best. Not so in science, technology or architecture. Your theory is correct but in only certain fields.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-90158965976902797042010-07-13T23:29:12.072-07:002010-07-13T23:29:12.072-07:00Ashkenazi Jews, to whom you are referring, are not...<i>Ashkenazi Jews, to whom you are referring, are not pure Middle Easterners</i><br /><br />I never claimed they were <i>pure</i> Middle Easterners. <br /><br /><i>How many inventions have been made by the little few blacks who have high IQ? They would have outdone Edison if your theory were true.</i><br /><br />How many blacks have IQ's as high as Edison, and of those, how many had the opportunity to invent stuff back in the days when there was still a lot left to invent. In sub-Sahara inventions tended to die with their inventors since their was no written language to pass them on, and outside sub-Sahara, blacks were largely slaves or just coming out of slavery and still severely oppressed and uneducated in the golden age of invention.catpersonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00648652809818262153noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-57122550623900463622010-07-13T23:27:27.467-07:002010-07-13T23:27:27.467-07:00asdfasdfasf, your theory on animals sounds more pl...asdfasdfasf, your theory on animals sounds more plausible now but not totally convincing. Asiatic elephants and hippos are smaller and tamer but are still dangerous. The Asiatic lions once had a range all over Eurasia and it is only now that their range has been reduced to only Gujrat state of India.<br />The Tiger is shy but dangerous none the less. They are bigger than Lions on average. Read any British Raj novel and you will know how dangerous tigers are and how many lives would be lost in Asia regularly to tigers. <br />http://www.youtube.com/watch#!v=uyrhWEsCjss&feature=related<br />http://www.redorbit.com/news/science/1591054/tiger_attacks_increasing_in_india/<br />And because tigers sneak attack like the one in that video, you have to be smarter and on your toes all the time.<br />Asia also has crocodiles though crocodiles like the Gharial are not that lethal to humans. There are cobras, pythons, wolves, alligators. And yes there are hyenas in India and also bears which do not exist in Africa as far as I know. I do not think Hippos exist in India.<br />Agreed Africa is not as dangerous as Asia but Asia is pretty close. <br />http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/home/environment/flora-fauna/Wild-elephants-attack-Chhattisgarh-village-tribals-flee-/articleshow/5232643.cms<br />There were loads of cases of Asian farmers having to fight wild animals with mere axes losing life and limb in the process. By your theory South East Asians and East Indians should have been larger and stronger than Europeans at least but that is not the case. Also you forget the fact that during the Ice-Age, Europeans, Northern Asians and Native North Americans had to deal with animals far more dangerous than African ones like the mammoth or the sable toothed tiger. There are cave paintings all around Europe on these animals.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-25942852683976571472010-07-13T22:14:44.376-07:002010-07-13T22:14:44.376-07:00@ Ganpat Sathe:
"But more Indians have a re...@ Ganpat Sathe: <br /><br />"But more Indians have a reasonable understanding of black music than there are blacks who undersand Indian music."<br /><br />Err, dunno about Music, but the best Indologists in the world are non-Indians (Wendy Doniger,David Frawley, David Dean Shulman, Robert Thurman, etc.)<br /><br />Most of what is known about the Indus Valley civilization is also through the West (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indus_Valley_Civilization)<br /><br />It would really not be surprising <br />if the study of Indian music is done in greater depth in the West than in India, which has no culture of serious scholarship. <br /><br />Anyway, the point was not to compare the knowledge that Indians <br />have of black music to that that blacks have of Indian music. The point was: what basis do YOU have to make a comparison of Indian and black music, especially given that Indians have no awareness of black music. <br /><br /><br />"No intelligent man will put hip hop in the same league as this."<br /><br />Are you dense? Comparisons need to be made factoring in: <br /><br />a) population sizes<br />b) time-lines<br />c) IQs (which are essentially the same for African Americans and Indians).<br /><br />An apt comparison would be innovation in music in India in the last century versus the contribution of blacks to Blues, R&B, Jazz, Rock, and Hip-hop. <br /><br />"Yes there is plagiarism in modern Indian music but only a tiny number of songs are copied."<br /><br />Shifting goal-posts? *You* brought up Bollywood as an example of creativity and have failed to dispute the assertion that there is massive plagiarism there. <br /><br />To deal with Indian music, do check out this link and let me know: <br /><br />http://www.itwofs.com/hindi-am.html<br /><br />"Then start shuddering, we have enough high IQ people of take over a reasonable part of the world."<br /><br />Save your own territory from China before boasting of taking over the rest of the world. Typical Indian-speak: All talk, no walk. <br /><br />At least some Indians seem to realize the filth that Indian culture is: <br /><br />http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/2010/05/31/stories/2010053150300900.htm<br /><br />http://www.businessweek.com/globalbiz/blog/globespotting/archives/2006/12/wake-up_call_to.htmlAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-79848727612054600942010-07-13T22:08:32.796-07:002010-07-13T22:08:32.796-07:00"They belong to a primitive race (middle east..."They belong to a primitive race (middle easterners) and thus enjoy the primitive brain functions that allow for weird and nutty ideas, but because they are by far the smartest middle easterners"<br /><br />Ashkenazi Jews, to whom you are referring, are not pure Middle Easterners as confirmed by two recent large autosomal population genetic studies. Genetic distance calculations within the articles showed Ashkenazim to be roughly equidistant between European and Levantine populations.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-89727271860910721662010-07-13T21:44:18.860-07:002010-07-13T21:44:18.860-07:00mexicans had pretty much nothing to do with it.
I...<i>mexicans had pretty much nothing to do with it.</i><br /><br />I assume a white man came up with the stand-and-stuff taco shell, the greatest innovation in Mexican food since the burrito.Svigorhttp://majorityrights.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-72024239632635431592010-07-13T21:21:36.568-07:002010-07-13T21:21:36.568-07:00I can't believe some people here are actually ...I can't believe some people here are actually trying to analyze the "creativeness" of an art form as subjective as music.Height Privilegenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-82961051860633402162010-07-13T21:03:48.344-07:002010-07-13T21:03:48.344-07:00Your theories are beyond funny.
South Asia and Sou...<i>Your theories are beyond funny.<br />South Asia and South East Asia are full of those animals found in Africa. Elephnts, Wild Dogs, Rhinos, Lions, Chetahs, Panthers etc... nearly all are found in Asia. And Africa does not have one of the most dangerous animal to humans, the tiger.<br />So by your theory East Indians and Malays would have been just as well built and been full of 'juice' as Africans.</i><br /><br />Asian elephant, though dangerous at times, is a lot gentler than the African elephant, which cannot be domesticated or trained at all. <br />There are a few lions in India but not many. They've long been limited to a small region. <br /><br />The Asian Rhino is smaller and less dangerous than the African. <br />The Asian water buffalo, though sometimes dangerous, isn't as temperamental as the African buffalo. The Asian buffalo can also be domesticated. <br /><br />I don't believe there are hyenas in India. Wild dogs or dholes of India can bring down big game but generally don't threaten humans. <br />Does India have cheetahs? It's news to me, but I didn't mention the African cheetah because it pretty much minds its own business and is no threat to humans. <br />Not sure if India has hippos, but if it does, it's probably something like the pygmy hippo, which isn't dangerous like the African hippo. <br /><br />But yes, there is the tiger and the leopard, and they've been known to kill and devour a good number of people in India. But it's my knowledge that both are essentially shy forest creatures in India, and they generally don't attack humans unless they are old or wounded and can no longer hunt their natural prey. <br /><br />Black Africans, OTOH, who'd long lived in less settled habitats and tended to be far more nomadic often crossed paths with some of the most dangerous on Earth. Also, since blacks had less agriculture, they depended more on hunting. Hunting a mofo like a hippo could be very dangerous. A hippo that is struck with spears but still alive can turn around, come at you, chomp your wooden canoe in two and then chew your ass alive.asdfasdfasfnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-73871480048860689442010-07-13T19:16:36.319-07:002010-07-13T19:16:36.319-07:00People who have no idea about the complexity and c...People who have no idea about the complexity and creativity of Classical Indian music need to read this. It is only the tip of the ice berg.<br />http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnatic_music<br /><br />No intelligent man will put hip hop in the same league as this.Ganpat Sathenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-25037963158590324512010-07-13T18:53:57.465-07:002010-07-13T18:53:57.465-07:00I think people should listen to the last few minut...I think people should listen to the last few minutes of the 6th video on Brunel.<br />http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FIUAB63-90o<br /><br /> Equating the creativity of black hip hop stars with White inventors is laughable. It is only in White nation that blacks tend to do well in music because WHITE PEOPLE ARE OBSESSED WITH THEM. In India there are a black people called the Siddis who have descended from Arab slaves who were given freedom by the British Raj. <br />They sing, dance and make merry but the average Indian is hardly impressed and just consider them a primitive people with primitive tastes. In non-White countries, black minorities are at best ignored.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-3609930081673783662010-07-13T18:47:46.617-07:002010-07-13T18:47:46.617-07:00"On the other hand, it could be blacks are mo..."On the other hand, it could be blacks are more 'creative' in certain ways not because they are 'less evolved' but because they evolved differently. Australian aborigines lived with kangaroos and wombats, no great threat to them. Amazonian Indians had more dangerous animals to deal with but only the jaguar was the real threat; otherwise, caution would keep them safe from poisonous snakes, frogs, etc. Llamas certainly were no danger to them. But blacks evolved alongside wild elephants, wild buffalos, lions, hyenas, jaguars, rhinos, hippos, gorillas, baboons, and other badass mean animals. They had more threats, so their bodies had to produce more hormones to make them stronger and more aggressive."<br /><br /> Your theories are beyond funny.<br />South Asia and South East Asia are full of those animals found in Africa. Elephnts, Wild Dogs, Rhinos, Lions, Chetahs, Panthers etc... nearly all are found in Asia. And Africa does not have one of the most dangerous animal to humans, the tiger.<br />So by your theory East Indians and Malays would have been just as well built and been full of 'juice' as Africans.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-85832277173155441072010-07-13T18:44:11.360-07:002010-07-13T18:44:11.360-07:00catperson said
"Ganpat Sathe, please take the...catperson said<br />"Ganpat Sathe, please take the time to understand my theory before disputing it. I am not saying that blacks are more creative than whites and East Asians, I am saying that controlling for IQ they are more creative. When you compare creativity in hip hop to creativity in science and technology, you are not controlling for IQ."<br /><br /> I am far from convinced. How many inventions have been made by the little few blacks who have high IQ? They would have outdone Edison if your theory were true.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-33838776400345301892010-07-13T18:40:58.566-07:002010-07-13T18:40:58.566-07:00"I'm yet to meet an Indian that has the s..."I'm yet to meet an Indian that has the slightest understanding of or interest in black music. I'd really like to know what you've seen. "<br /><br />I am yet to meet a non-Indian who really unerstands Indian music. But more Indians have a reasonable understanding of black music than there are blacks who undersand Indian music.<br /><br />"It's also ironic that you believe Bollywood and the South Indian movie industry are creative when they have a reputation for massive plagiarism. <br /><br />At least most of black music is original. And much of it has been created by a much smaller population in a much smaller time frame than the "complex" music given by India. "<br /><br />Yes there is plagiarism in modern Indian music but only a tiny number of songs are copied.<br /><br />"Once again, the bigotry of the average Indian comes to the fore (if it's black, hate it). "<br /><br />Just because we are not impressed by this so called black music does not mean we are bigots. Black music is over rated and thats it an a lot of it is rubbish.<br /><br />"It's a good thing they have low IQs on average, as the prospect of having Indian overlords is something the rest of the world would shudder at the prospect of."<br /> Then start shuddering, we have enough high IQ people of take over a reasonable part of the world.<br /><br />"Name the country, and I can promise you that Hip Hop is there with a vengence. "<br /><br /> Please, many people pretend to like hip hop. They do it because because America (or American media)<br />considers hip hop is cool. America is number one and everything America does (which is decided by the American media) is cool. Thats it.Ganpat Sathenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-33550537806994070682010-07-13T16:53:04.962-07:002010-07-13T16:53:04.962-07:00Hi, Steve -
Thank you for a thoughtful post about...Hi, Steve -<br /><br />Thank you for a thoughtful post about Po's and my article. And thank you to everyone commenting as well.<br /><br />Just to clarify a couple points. The scholars consider art to be creative in that it is a communication exchange - of ideas, of emotion, sensation - between artist and audience. So that's how it is useful. <br /><br />In terms of the rest of the confusion about creativity - it just doesn't have to be as fuzzy as we claim it is.<br /><br />I have been thinking and working about this for years now. And I've come to the conclusion that when we label something as "creative" that isn't what we mean at all. Instead, we often mean is "weird," 'funky," or just off-kilter. Or that we give the title as some award of artistic accomplishment. <br /><br />And I think that framing of the idea as that is ultimately a disservice to the creativity of folks like Jon Fitch, as Steve elegantly wrote about. <br /><br />It's also ultimately a disservice to artists. Some people mentioned a link between creativity and madness - but research also shows that there's a negative relationship between them as well.<br />And so when the dialogue is that "creative" really means off-kilter/weird/even disturbed, there are number of researchers who've found artists actually consciously or subconsciously increase their mental instability to sort of prove their creative worth.<br /><br />As for the TTCT and socioeconomics, most researchers consider the TTCT to be much less influenced by socioeconomic factors than say IQ tests.Ashley Merrymanhttp://www.nurtureshock.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-62315793973077387772010-07-13T16:01:05.064-07:002010-07-13T16:01:05.064-07:00Others have already taken down Ganpat Sathe's ...Others have already taken down Ganpat Sathe's dumb argument, but there are a few facts that need correction. <br /><br />"I mean I have seen that the blacks have done with hip hop, jazz and stuff but if you ask me there has been far more creativity in Bollywood and the South Indian movie industry that all of them combined."<br /><br />I'm yet to meet an Indian that has the slightest understanding of or interest in black music. I'd really like to know what you've seen. <br /><br />It's also ironic that you believe Bollywood and the South Indian movie industry are creative when they have a reputation for massive plagiarism. <br /><br />To wit: <br /><br />http://www.bollywoodtrends.net/2009/04/bollywood-and-plagiarism-list-of.html<br /><br />At least most of black music is original. And much of it has been created by a much smaller population in a much smaller time frame than the "complex" music given by India. <br /><br />Once again, the bigotry of the average Indian comes to the fore (if it's black, hate it). <br />It's a good thing they have low IQs on average, as the prospect of having Indian overlords is something the rest of the world would shudder at the prospect of.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-32356357751763052422010-07-13T15:30:35.455-07:002010-07-13T15:30:35.455-07:00I'm with Catperson - the strawman argument Gan...I'm with Catperson - the strawman argument Ganpath Sathe's making is really silly. No one's arguing who's creativity is better or anything like that though I would like to note with interest that there isn't a place you can go on this planet where Hip Hop hasnt't touched it. Name the country, and I can promise you that Hip Hop is there with a vengence. <br /><br />What I would like to get the feedback on is what I noted earlier - that not only is there clear and present evidence of Black guys using computers, but using them to make quite sophisticated music at that. Let's try this again, because I really, really, need Mr. Sailer and Co. to weigh in on this:<br /><br />"On another note, I find it interesting that no one has even considered one particular computer: it's called the SP1200. Here's some info on it:<br /><br />http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E-mu_SP-1200<br /><br />Some notable users of this computer are:<br /><br />The RZA<br />DJ Premiere<br />J Dilla<br />Marley Marl<br />Dr. Dre<br /><br />Question: which of these Men had formal musical training? <br /><br />Holla back"<br /><br />O.Obsidiannoreply@blogger.com