tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post8007988111905508089..comments2024-03-15T20:52:26.967-07:00Comments on Steve Sailer: iSteve: How much was Tolkien's "Rings" influenced by Wagner's "Ring?"Unknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger83125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-34143942571985975262012-06-12T17:21:29.292-07:002012-06-12T17:21:29.292-07:00Tolkien was irrefutably influenced by Wagner. We i...Tolkien was irrefutably influenced by Wagner. We in Britain (and it's colonial offshoots) tend to forget how significant German culture (especially at the higher end in science and scholarship) influenced British (and for that matter, American) thought. The Victorians -- the world of Tolkien's childhood -- was very Germanophile. This historical fact was re-written because of the First and Second World wars.<br />That said, Tolkien was also influenced by others, too.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-51176727046621633932012-06-10T19:43:06.502-07:002012-06-10T19:43:06.502-07:00"Anonymous Anonymous said...
@ Mr Anon,
I d..."Anonymous Anonymous said...<br /><br />@ Mr Anon,<br /><br />I didn't mean to contradict you. I wasn't clear, I was elaborating on your comment."<br /><br />Verstanden. Entschuldigung.Mr. Anonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-83251874485416628252012-06-10T15:07:54.274-07:002012-06-10T15:07:54.274-07:00@ Mr Anon,
I didn't mean to contradict you. I...@ Mr Anon,<br /><br />I didn't mean to contradict you. I wasn't clear, I was elaborating on your comment. <br /><br />The majority of Tolkien's good peoples are "Germanic" derived in language, lore and many aspects of material culture, the exceptions being the Celtic derived Breemen and Dunlendings, and the Pukelmen, and the Numenoreans.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-86969956681792162142012-06-10T12:11:13.571-07:002012-06-10T12:11:13.571-07:00@ Mr Anon
Orkish sounds vaguely Turkic or Slavic....@ Mr Anon<br /><br />Orkish sounds vaguely Turkic or Slavic. There really aren't any "Germans" in Middle Earth,...."<br /><br />I didn't say "German". I said "Germanic", which would encompass both Anglo-Saxons and Scandinavians. And, clearly, the Rohirim are germanic. Even their names sound anglo-saxon - Eomer, Eowyn, Theoden, etc.Mr. Anonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-71998952873360860522012-06-10T10:53:23.840-07:002012-06-10T10:53:23.840-07:00It seems as if whole bunch of nations coming into ...<i>It seems as if whole bunch of nations coming into being in mid 19th century were forging national myths to create a unified consciousness.</i><br /><br />This wouldn't be at all like the myth-making that comes out of Hollywood today? Or do they call that fiction?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-6860810322850286152012-06-09T22:59:06.958-07:002012-06-09T22:59:06.958-07:00"There was less need for this among Brits and..."There was less need for this among Brits and French cuz their borders and identities were better established."<br /><br />What became national myths for Germans and Finns only amounted to fantasy lit for the British.<br /><br />Poles did it not with mythology but tragic-heroic history: The trilogy by Sienkiewicz, of which the first novel is awesome.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-50994378017452992432012-06-09T22:53:45.185-07:002012-06-09T22:53:45.185-07:00'Would you give Tolkien some credit re Wagner?...'Would you give Tolkien some credit re Wagner? He said he wasn't influenced and I believe him. He said that he was influenced by Kalevala and if you read it you'd see how true it is.'<br /><br />Ok. But the movie is Wagnerian and not in a good way.<br /><br />It seems as if whole bunch of nations coming into being in mid 19th century were forging national myths to create a unified consciousness. There was less need for this among Brits and French cuz their borders and identities were better established.<br /><br />I guess Mormonism sort of fits into category as well. Lord of the Tabernacles.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-89607948704954201732012-06-09T22:46:12.408-07:002012-06-09T22:46:12.408-07:00http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x0yF1AnuRN4
http:/...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x0yF1AnuRN4<br /><br />http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sampo_(film)<br /><br />Sampo (Russian: Сампо) is a Russian and Finnish language 1959 joint Finnish and Soviet production based loosely on the events depicted in the Finnish national epic Kalevala. A significantly edited version called The Day the Earth Froze was released internationally. This version was later featured in the American series Mystery Science Theater 3000. The original Russian version has not been released on video or DVD.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-43156982673508560272012-06-09T22:31:51.490-07:002012-06-09T22:31:51.490-07:00To verbose Anon at 10:19--
I didn't read you...To verbose Anon at 10:19-- <br /><br />I didn't read your full comment and don't intend to but...<br /><br />Would you give Tolkien some credit re Wagner? He said he wasn't influenced and I believe him. He said that he was influenced by Kalevala and if you read it you'd see how true it is. The creation myth, the plot elements, the general "feel"...there is a lot in common. But no one read Kalevala; and on the other hand everyone knows Wagner; so they all look under the convenient Wagnerian lamppost. <br /><br />--------------------<br /><br />Re: blond Greeks.<br /><br />Mary Renault (one of Tolkien's favorite writers btw) posits that while the indigenous Achaeans were dark and swarthy, the relative newcomer Dorians were fair-haired and blue-eyed. I understand that was the scientific consensus at the time. Is it still? Or no one thinks about such things anymore?Pfft the Eldernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-26211500514155105282012-06-09T22:00:44.988-07:002012-06-09T22:00:44.988-07:00@ Mr Anon
Orkish sounds vaguely Turkic or Slavic....@ Mr Anon<br /><br />Orkish sounds vaguely Turkic or Slavic. There really aren't any "Germans" in Middle Earth, maybe in Dorwinion, a land to the South, inhabited by kinsmen of the Northmen, famous for its wines and crops. A reference to the Rhineland or Continental Germans? Otherwise, the equivalents of the Franks, Thuringians or Alemmani aren't there.<br /><br /> The far ancestors of the Rohirrim in ancient Rhovanion were modeled on the Gothic/East Germanic peoples. Otherwise, Tolkien's legendarium reflects his Northern interests: Britain, Anglo-Saxons, Scandinavians and Finns. The Laketown men and the Beornings are modeled on Scandinavians. <br /><br />On Orcs, Tolkien wrote, I don't have the reference, but I think it is in Morgoth's ring, to his son Christopher, that orcs are in every society. They are dull, vicious sorts. Dare I say, Tolkien was also a little bit of an agrarian snob. Orkish influenced Common Speech seems pretty Cockney or urban proletariat.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-38802543141815440102012-06-09T21:34:02.621-07:002012-06-09T21:34:02.621-07:00"Th dragon that Siefried (AKA Beowolf) slays ..."Th dragon that Siefried (AKA Beowolf) slays is the Roman Empire (actually still the Republic then). The Niebelungen Saga was composed around the time of Christ. It's not really very old."<br /><br />The more normative historical tradition traces the roots of the NIBELUNGENLIED to the the downfall of the Germanic kingdom of Burgundy in AD 436.<br /><br />SyonAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-53608886087980029412012-06-09T21:15:55.060-07:002012-06-09T21:15:55.060-07:00"
Ron, since you are a Woo perhaps you are br..."<br />Ron, since you are a Woo perhaps you are bringing an overly Chinese slant on this. The Chinese are somewhat obsessed with their "ancient civilization" as a barometer of worth of their state (it's what holds all their provinces together, for one thing) and so may exaggerate the concerns of other nations. Americans for example don't really care that their country is around 300 years old or see that as making any statement about who they are or what their country is worth."<br /><br /> You make a good point actually - although I do not personally feel I am susceptible to this tendency. <br /><br /> Chinese in mainland China will often grouse to me about how American (US) history is one of unimpressive brevity. I will usually respond by pointing out that its length is irrelevant - the country has an incredible history. If anything, the youth of the United States throws into relief the grandeur its accomplishments. <br /><br /> I do find it ridiculous, however, that many partisans of the Teutonic races on this website are in denial about the chronological structure of their record of accomplishment - i.e. fallow until recently, then just remarkable over the past few centuries. Why would this be a sort spot? It's also utterly disingenuous to argue otherwise.Ron Woonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-84544326583234446562012-06-09T20:56:37.081-07:002012-06-09T20:56:37.081-07:00"pat said...
It has links everywhere. Tolkie..."pat said...<br /><br />It has links everywhere. Tolkien's Ring recounts a fable in which the very English Hobbits (they live in a shire after all) defeat the evil and vaguely Germanic Sauron. In Wagner's Ring the heros are the Germans - indeed the story is about THE German hero."<br /><br />I never perceived Sauron or the Nazgul or the Orcs as germanic in any way. The Rohirim however seemed decidedly germanic, and they were good guys.Mr. Anonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-3441663607234309152012-06-09T20:25:46.708-07:002012-06-09T20:25:46.708-07:00I am not a Tolkien or literary scholar, but I thin...I am not a Tolkien or literary scholar, but I think Steve's last sentence carries more weight than everything else, all the various literary and artistic influences. Yes, surely just about everything the man ever knew contributed to what he wrote and to his artistic style. Tolkien apparently denied it, but I can't see how the man's writing is not about the Somme.<br /><br />He did admit hobits were based on enlisted men he knew and his batman (enlisted aid). He was a Second Lieutenant, a Signals officer, so he likely got around the battlefield.<br /><br />I've known many 3 war combat vets, vets who have seen much combat. Heck, I'm old enough to have known WWI vets. Men with a great deal of time in the field. Some don't manifestly suffer from PTSD, but they often become oddly "compartmentalized". I see Tolkien as a combat vet writing about combat. Like All Quite on the Western Front or The Forgotten Soldier, another of Shakespear's murmur'd tales of iron wars. But Tolkien was able to do so at a distance more removed and more artistic and was also able to address not just his personal sense of loss, but a sense of bigger loss in the balance, his fears for the cost to civilization, to England.<br /><br />The British lost 60,000 the first day of the Somme (about half KIA). The battle lasted for 4 or 5 months and killed over a million men. Tolkien was in the thick of much of it until he came down with trench fever (which probably saved his life and he must have known it). Nearly all Tolkien's close friends were killed in the war. I believe his battalion or regiment survived the battle but was eventually overrun making a stand-at-all-cost during another and "disappered from history".<br /><br />Much of the Somme was fought by the "Pals", volunteer units from the same towns who often all knew each other. When an entire unit was wiped out it meant disaster for some Shire back home (and other places, <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beaumont-Hamel_Newfoundland_Memorial" rel="nofollow">Newfoundland is one</a>). The Somme was the very definition of the battle that killed off a generation. I don't see how living though that can't be a dominant influence on a man's writing.<br /><br />A vet is the last person I'd believe in regard to what he says about why he's telling his stories and what they mean. It's probably what people have to do.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-43518850564591335792012-06-09T19:25:43.009-07:002012-06-09T19:25:43.009-07:00Anonymous 6/7/12 10:19 PM and Anonymous 6/7/12 10:...Anonymous 6/7/12 10:19 PM and Anonymous 6/7/12 10:20 PM (who I think are one and the same),<br /><br />Great comments and I've found them to be very true re my own English and German heritage.Kylienoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-3074113621960008712012-06-09T12:07:58.639-07:002012-06-09T12:07:58.639-07:00The real historical Germanic hero Arminius and [Si...<i> The real historical Germanic hero Arminius and [Siegfried] the mythical Germanic hero were one and the same - so says Delbruck.</i><br /><br />And what was Delbruck's evidence for that assertion?<br /><br />"Arminius" versus "Herman:" The Latin male, singular, nominative case suffix attached to a noun is "-us" or "-ius," so "Arminius" is actually "Armin."<br /><br />Perhaps some vernacular speakers of classical Latin dropped their H's, so "Armin" was shortened from H'armin --> Herman.<br /><br />Folk entymology: "Herman" --> "Herr Mann," the ur-German.David Davenportnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-5234677861670206302012-06-09T08:38:59.888-07:002012-06-09T08:38:59.888-07:00The Carolingian Renasissance was funded by the loo...The Carolingian Renasissance was funded by the loot Charlemagnes got off the Hun Ring-fortresss. This is the origin of the treasure of the ring cycle.<br /><br />19th century journalism called every big conspiracy a Ring. The Tweed Ring, etc.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-39136330049354895862012-06-09T08:23:45.144-07:002012-06-09T08:23:45.144-07:00"Oppositional inspiration is when someone pas..."Oppositional inspiration is when someone passionately dislikes something and is roused to 'do it right'."<br /><br />In-spite-ation.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-59519668259197332012-06-09T08:14:14.627-07:002012-06-09T08:14:14.627-07:00One might make a case that Tolkein was influenced ...One might make a case that Tolkein was influenced by wanting to do the opposite. Wagner's heroes are BIG HEROES full of blood and thunder whereas Tolkein chooses little, inoffensive unwarlike creatures as the heroes. This fits the British self image and if history is any judge, the German.neil craighttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09157898238945726349noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-23403485073865135852012-06-09T05:04:00.968-07:002012-06-09T05:04:00.968-07:00is readily understandable only a few centuries ago...<i>is readily understandable only a few centuries ago, when Teutonic nations had yet to achieve much of substance.</i><br /><br />And yet the Finns feel no envy for the Egyptians.<br /><br />Ron, since you are a Woo perhaps you are bringing an overly Chinese slant on this. The Chinese are somewhat obsessed with their "ancient civilization" as a barometer of worth of their state (it's what holds all their provinces together, for one thing) and so may exaggerate the concerns of other nations. Americans for example don't really care that their country is around 300 years old or see that as making any statement about who they are or what their country is worth.<br /><br /><i>The thing about Northern Europeans envying the ancient civilizations is a bizarre myth that certain people like to believe to salve their own feelings of inferiority. I've never heard a word of envy, only admiration.</i><br /><br />Some people feel that way (those who think hard about the subject), but in general, even those who can't take the blow to their pride (which is very few amongst Northern Europeans) end up rationalising it away and valorising their barbarian ancestors and their lifestyle - that's more characteristic of Nordicism than trying to claim that they were the true ancestors of civilization.<br /><br />Which is very hard for a people like the Chinese who are very invested in being these agrarian civilization types for basically forever to grasp.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-80037251414145706042012-06-08T19:34:49.516-07:002012-06-08T19:34:49.516-07:00"Envy is not something that Germanic people e..."Envy is not something that Germanic people experience easily, because envy takes a selfishness, a trait that Germanic people seem to have less of than anyone else, which makes their societies so pleasant and successful. "<br /><br /> Find it interesting you say that - I'd had extensive interactions with Germans in business and found many of them to be shallow and self-centered dead fish. <br /><br /> You appear to know or understand very little of human cultural history - German envy of Mediterranean antiquity's accomplishments is readily understandable only a few centuries ago, when Teutonic nations had yet to achieve much of substance.Ron Woonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-31788400701024136682012-06-08T18:15:03.890-07:002012-06-08T18:15:03.890-07:00"The Germans have an epic inferiority complex..."The Germans have an epic inferiority complex towards the ancient Hellenes and Romans. Their inferiority complex is so extreme that Hitler granted Italians honorary Aryan status based solely on the accomplishments of the ancient Latins, despite the fact that Italy in the 1930s was essentially a Third World country only a notch or so above sub-Saharan Africa."<br /><br />Wrong on both counts. The thing about Northern Europeans envying the ancient civilizations is a bizarre myth that certain people like to believe to salve their own feelings of inferiority. I've never heard a word of envy, only admiration. Envy is not something that Germanic people experience easily, because envy takes a selfishness, a trait that Germanic people seem to have less of than anyone else, which makes their societies so pleasant and successful. <br /><br />As for Italy being almost Africa...a truly Wiskeyian misrepresentation.ATBOTLnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-14167573922152363962012-06-08T17:18:00.800-07:002012-06-08T17:18:00.800-07:00In Italy we say, about the WW2, "Italian sold...In Italy we say, about the WW2, "Italian soldiers and German officers"<br /><br />The problem of Italy was, after near 20 years of Fascist regime, the heads of the Armed Forces were selected more for their fealty to the Fascist Party than for they skills. Mussolini, like Saddam, believed to be able to "seat at the table of the peace" paying a few lives of Italian soldier. They both misread the political and military conditions. And both went at war unprepared and paid with their lives.painlord2k@gmail.comhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04566115851088917514noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-20715375672178666572012-06-08T14:57:01.967-07:002012-06-08T14:57:01.967-07:00Italy was in dire shape before WWII. It essentiall...<i> Italy was in dire shape before WWII. It essentially had a pre World war 1 army. This is why it was repeatedly humiliated in the war. It's invasions of France and Greece were fiascos. The italians in Libya were so shambolic that the surrendered en masse to second rate British troops who were a fraction their size. </i><br /><br />The Italians had some great kit, like the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reggiane_Re.2005" rel="nofollow">Reggiane Re.2005 </a>. Not enough of them its true, but still as good as anything anyone else had.<br /><br />Their Navy was pretty impressive as well.<br /><br />The <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_commando_frogmen" rel="nofollow">Italian Naval Commandos </a>were outstanding as were the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/185_Airborne_Division_Folgore" rel="nofollow"> Folgore </a> Paratroop Division. They were far from incompetent. If the Germans had gone along with the Italian plan to invade Malta the whole North Africa campaign may well have turned out quite differently.<br /><br />They struggled against the Greeks because the Greeks put up a great fight.<br /><br />However, until the Germans arrived in North Africa with their 88s, the Italians had no effective antitank weapons, something their commanding officer was aware of but Mussolini failed to see the significance of. The unfortunate Italian troops had to face the heavily armoured and (for them) unstoppable British Matilda tanks. This wasn't forested Finland full of lakes and in the middle of winter, but open desert. Of course they surrendered.<br /><br />Having said that, the Eighth Army beat 'em fair and square.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-89551445969900462812012-06-08T14:37:07.654-07:002012-06-08T14:37:07.654-07:00" arguing that the Greeks of antiquity were a..." arguing that the Greeks of antiquity were all blonde and blue-eyed"<br /><br />I remember noticing that in The Aeneid, Virgil describes Queen Dido as blonde-haired - implying that it was (a) possible but (b) unusual for a North African/Phoenician queen to be blonde-haired, in the imagination of his readers.<br /><br />Athenians and Romans were clearly not Nordic, though the Dorian invaders (eg Spartans) may have been rather lighter than the older Ionian (eg Athenian) inhabitants of Greece. <br /><br />IMO Maddison Grant type Nordicism does come across as a bit silly, though not as ridiculous as claiming that Cleopatra was a black west-African. A more realistic approach is to recognise that western-European civilisation rests on a tripod of Jewish/Christian religion, Greco-Roman civilisation, and Germanic culture and folk.Simon in Londonnoreply@blogger.com