tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post8406683574220906147..comments2024-03-27T18:24:19.683-07:00Comments on Steve Sailer: iSteve: Open borders debate: Let the recriminations begin!Unknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger101125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-40149214068590347582013-11-07T14:46:43.374-08:002013-11-07T14:46:43.374-08:00"(like all those movies about Southern folks ..."(like all those movies about Southern folks with white men who beat up white women who realize they are fellow victims along with blacks.)"<br /><br />The only one I can think of is "Mississippi Burning." Which other ones are there? Silvernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-51106224960224614572013-11-07T10:02:01.839-08:002013-11-07T10:02:01.839-08:00"Cowen uses the term "Straussian" a..."Cowen uses the term "Straussian" a lot to mean a strategy -- writing crafted to deceive or distract all but the closest readers -- rather than particular ideological tradition."<br /><br />Much of Jewish thought will have to be Straussian. If Jews were a relatively powerless group, they could honestly talk about their tribal interests in their own communities--and I suppose Hasidim(weirdo minority among Jews) do that. <br /><br />If Jews were the vast majority, they could take their power for granted and speak more honestly about power and interests, as Wasps used to do--like Tom Buchanan in GREAT GATSBY. <br /><br />But Jews are a small minority with majority-magnitude power. They are both powerful and vulnerable. As they control much of the academia and media, they feel compelled to speak for all of us, for the good of society as a whole. But Jews are also very much into their own interests and identity. <br /><br />Thus, they have no choice to be Straussian since they are trying to make it seem like they're speaking for ALL OF US when they are really speaking for their own interests. <br /><br />It's like Jews tell us defending Israel is all about defending democracy, American values, and Western Civilization. <br />But then, the same Jews argue that Europe and US must be third-world-ized in order to be more 'inclusive' and less 'racist' for the good of all humanity. <br /><br />Both arguments serve Jewish interests. Where Jews are the majority(in Israel), they want majority power. <br />Where Jews are the minority, they wanna reduce majority power(of whites). <br />But both arguments are made in a Straussian fashion, i.e. 'for the good of lots of people than merely for Jews', but Jews know it's about Jewish interests. <br /><br />Of course, Jews(at least smart ones)pick up on this, but many dimwit gentiles do not. <br /><br />It's like the movie MARGIN CALL. Purely Straussian movie. On the one hand, it looks like harsh criticism of Wall Street. But Jewish Hollywood doesn't wanna go too hard on Jewish Wall Street. So, we have a character who has a dying dog. The movie ends with the image of him burying his poor poor dog. So, never mind all the foul things he did. We are made to feel sorry for him. <br />And the characters are all shown doing their foul deeds with much trepidation and self-loathing, i.e. they are not without a conscience. <br />And there's Jeremy Irons to make the face of Wall Street look WAspy. And then he says things like this happen again and again, i.e. it's really nobody's fault, and well, 'shit happens'. <br /><br />Now, if Wall Street were controlled by people other than Jews, the movie would have much tougher. It wouldn't have ended with a man burying his dog but going home to beat up his wife(like all those movies about Southern folks with white men who beat up white women who realize they are fellow victims along with blacks.) Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-83058189599726769932013-11-06T20:26:13.908-08:002013-11-06T20:26:13.908-08:00You can distinguish between Straussianism as a wor...You can distinguish between Straussianism as a world-view, Straussianism as a cult, and Straussianism as a technique of discrete, even surreptitious intellectual discourse. TGGP above gives an example of one intellectual who acknowledges the influence on him of Straussianism as a technique.Steve Sailerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11920109042402850214noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-9087870764239464132013-11-06T15:35:10.763-08:002013-11-06T15:35:10.763-08:00Steve, I thought you were talking about columnists...Steve, I thought you were talking about columnists influenced by Strauss, not by you. If they're influenced by you, what's the relevance of their indirect connection to Strauss? Is it that it inspires them to channel your ideas without attribution? I don't think you have Straussian training to figure out that maneuver.<br /><br />I understand you don't want to expose people upon whom you are an unacknowledged influence. I'm not naive.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-6328712653537575992013-11-06T14:51:35.251-08:002013-11-06T14:51:35.251-08:00As you say, Kristol is not an NYT op-ed columnist,...As you say, Kristol is not an NYT op-ed columnist, a fact of which I'm well aware.<br /><br />I don't give names because people get denounced for admitting to being influenced by me. For example, look at how Malcolm Gladwell tried to wriggle out of his NFL quarterback draft fiasco with Pinker by revealing that Evil Me was one of Pinker's sources. <br /><br />I've given out enough clues that sensible people who pay close attention will be able to figure some things out, but not enough for Media Matters or the $PLC to easily turn it into denunciations of these prominent crimethinkers.<br /><br />Steve Sailerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11920109042402850214noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-14545558895745288822013-11-06T14:19:08.475-08:002013-11-06T14:19:08.475-08:00Ron Unz did a masterful job of debating the subjec...Ron Unz did a masterful job of debating the subject for the target audience. No one commented on that. I thought he said I don't know shit about economics(so don't play 'professor' on me) but it seems the working class of Americans are getting screwed by immigration. Their wages are going down, they are getting angry. That will cause a hornet's nest of political unrest. You rich people are the ones benefiting. You rich people control the debate, you control the politics. The proles know that.<br /><br />The tacit message: Remember Germany in the twenties and early thirties? A hornets nest of political unrest due to bad times for the working class.Do something before that happens.Conatushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12543138570489872681noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-8419723216654766202013-11-06T14:12:22.815-08:002013-11-06T14:12:22.815-08:00Steve says that "two certain NYT op-ed column...Steve says that "two certain NYT op-ed columnists have an academic lineage two steps removed from Strauss: one attended classes given by Strauss follower Harvey Mansfield and the other classes given by Strauss follower Allan Bloom."<br /><br />First, is there some reason you don't name these people? Do you thnk they would sue for libel based on these statements? Do you think they'd do something worse than that? Do you think there's a Straussian/Cosa Nostra connection (or maybe more likely a Straussian/Israeli mafia connection) like the relationship between Dean Faber and the local mobsters portrayed in Animal House? Really, this sort of thing makes you look paranoid.<br /><br />Secondly, I assume one of the writers you have in mind is Bill Kristol, who got his PhD at Harvard under Mansfield's supervision. Kristol wrote at NYT for one year (over much protest), and his stint there ended quite a while ago. So it's not really accurate to refer to Kristol as an NYT columnist, as if he were writing there currently. But it is fair to call Kristol a Straussian. FWIW, Kristol is opposed to the Gang of Eight bill and (unlike his buddy, the egregious Bush-toady Fred Barnes) is becoming more rational about immigration issues.<br /><br />I assume there other writer you're referring to is David Brooks. Perhaps he did take classes with Bloom. So what if he did? You have to be hallucinating if you think he's some sort of deep-thinking, double-meaning-using Straussian. Although he was more of a conservative back in the 90s, he's evolved into nothing more than a 21st century Rockefeller Republican. Somebody who thinks maybe Obamacare could have been slightly better designed, and maybe we should stick things out in Afghanistan. The David Gergen of his generation. Taking a class with a professor who studied under Strauss does not make one a Straussian.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-72128662506540700052013-11-06T13:29:44.245-08:002013-11-06T13:29:44.245-08:00If anybody wants to see what libertarians think of...If anybody wants to see what libertarians think of Israel, they should go to any libertarian website (such as Econlog, where Caplan writes, or Cato) and search what they say about Israel. Ideologically-purist libertarians (as opposed to more mainstream free-market types) have little use for Israel, which is consistent with their opposition to giving culture, tradition or ethnicity any weight in government policy-making. It is also consistent with their anti-military proclivities and preference to avoid US involvement in foreign conflicts (even if we're not involved in the fighting).<br /><br />Israel's immigration policy (such as its kicking out unwanted African migrants) does not get much criticism here (although it gets some) because the amnesty/open-borders crowd generally ignores the fact that the US already has the most liberal immigration policy in the world. If you look at other country's more rational approaches to this issue, it puts in question the rationality of what the amnesty/open borders crowd is up to.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-3363144424091217802013-11-06T13:12:25.737-08:002013-11-06T13:12:25.737-08:00John Donvan:
Ladies and gentlemen, Ron Unz.
[appla...John Donvan:<br />Ladies and gentlemen, Ron Unz.<br />[applause]<br />18:55:00<br />Ron, you have one of those very, very disparate resumes that Intelligence Squared<br />loves. You're a physicist by training. But then you were a founder and chairman of Wall<br />Street Analytics,<br />which is a financial services software company. Then you ran for<br />governor of California. Then you were a publisher of the American Conservative.<br />You've been described, quote, unquote, as a "nerdy guy who lives and breathes policy<br />and politics." And I hope you know that in the Intelligence Squared universe that makes<br />you a sex symbol.<br />[laughter]<br />[applause]<br />Ron Unz:<br />Well, I guess we'll find out when the vote takes placeAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-65401451096397587442013-11-06T12:51:44.521-08:002013-11-06T12:51:44.521-08:00Late to this one, but I posted this over at Caplan...Late to this one, but I posted this over at Caplan's blog--<br /><br />A couple of problems with your explanation.<br /><br />1. The anouncers made it pretty clear that the debate was not about the mainstream American pro-immigration position, as shown by the following:<br /><br />"Well, of course, as I'm sure you've said, this is not a debate about immigration. It really is an experiment and a debate about pushing free market ideas to the limit."<br /><br />"And when you look at this motion language, “Let Anyone Take a Job Anywhere," how literally do you think that we should expect the debaters to be arguing "anyone anywhere"?<br /><br />-- Well, the motion language is pretty extreme, I must admit, and not terribly nuanced, but a motion that said, let more people take more jobs in more places would hardly have been a good debate."<br /><br />2. The pre-vote totals don't match up with your metaphorical voting hypothesis:<br /><br />In an IQ2 audience, only 46% favor the mainstream American pro-immigration position and 33% were undecided. <br /><br />It really doesn't seem very plausible that all, or even most, of the 28% that shifted to the opposition did so for the reasons you suggest.<br />Jaynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-41746196484059963462013-11-06T12:20:54.553-08:002013-11-06T12:20:54.553-08:00and wow, Unz just refuted the central point of Cap...and wow, Unz just refuted the central point of Caplan's argument a few minutes into his presentation. "here is a counter example where that* didn't happen."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-58346839457686109322013-11-06T12:18:28.875-08:002013-11-06T12:18:28.875-08:00Why did Caplan try to argue that introducing a bil...Why did Caplan try to argue that introducing a billion extra farmers would be a good thing? we pay people to not grow food as is, and for good reason: demand for food is inelastic.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-31067097353094506162013-11-06T09:06:05.894-08:002013-11-06T09:06:05.894-08:00And Paul Wolfowitz lived in the same dorm as Allan...<i>And Paul Wolfowitz lived in the same dorm as Allan Bloom and took two courses with Strauss -- but he was Wohlstetter's student . . . Steve, these sorts of connection are balls and you know it.<br /><br />Any way, Strauss was an amazing scholar. I don't know if you read him a lot; maybe you think so too. But his reputation has been jerked around by loathsome people for too long. Please don't help them.</i><br /><br />If he really was "an amazing scholar", and developed a loyal cult following that persists today, why would these sorts of connections be meaningless?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-73312857614293883752013-11-06T08:38:35.221-08:002013-11-06T08:38:35.221-08:00The man happens to be rather hostile to Israel, li...<i>The man happens to be rather hostile to Israel, like most libertarians, regardless of ethnic background.</i> <br /><br /><br />I had never noticed that libertarians (regardless of ethnic background) are hostile to Israel. Can you give any examples?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-85393673588342400932013-11-06T06:04:41.867-08:002013-11-06T06:04:41.867-08:00"Isn't it funny how Jews are always for o...<i>"Isn't it funny how Jews are always for open borders, except for Israel?"<br /><br />How do you know Caplan isn't for open borders for Israel, genius? The man happens to be rather hostile to Israel, like most libertarians, regardless of ethnic background.<br /><br />Bashing Israel is not going to help stop an immigration disaster in this country. But, if your real priority is screwing Israel, inundating the country with third world immigrants who don't give a shit about Israel, and will vote for far-left ideologues who hate Israel, is a good way to dilute what's left of the pro-Israel constituency in this country.</i><br /><br />He wasn't bashing Israel, he was pointing out a fact. And that fact <i>can</i> help stop an immigration disaster in this country:<br /><br />"I'm very pro-Israel, and if I'm elected I'll do everything I can to make our immigration policy more like Israel's."<br /><br />"I'm very pro-Israel, and I'm worried that this open-borders advocacy will infect our foreign policy and lead to pressure on Israel to destroy itself with an open-borders policy. That is why, if I am elected, I will work to remove this open-borders lunacy from American politics."<br /><br />"I'm very pro-Israel, and I hear a lot of criticism of the American Jewish community's supposed hypocrisy in advocating open borders for America, but closed borders for Israel. The American Jewish community is losing a lot of credibility because of this dichotomy, and I want to put an end to it and strengthen the American Jewish community's position by closing our borders, too."<br /><br />"I love Israel and want to honor them by bringing their border policies to America. I want America to be more like Israel."<br /><br />Et cetera.<br /><br />But thanks for trying to do us a favor, we really appreciate the advice.Svigornoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-63835023719463237172013-11-05T19:44:21.802-08:002013-11-05T19:44:21.802-08:00And Paul Wolfowitz lived in the same dorm as Allan...And Paul Wolfowitz lived in the same dorm as Allan Bloom and took two courses with Strauss -- but he was Wohlstetter's student . . . Steve, these sorts of connection are balls and you know it.<br /><br />Any way, Strauss was an amazing scholar. I don't know if you read him a lot; maybe you think so too. But his reputation has been jerked around by loathsome people for too long. Please don't help them.Miguel S.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-72434820057119115102013-11-05T16:34:54.077-08:002013-11-05T16:34:54.077-08:00Cowen uses the term "Straussian" a lot t...Cowen uses the term "Straussian" a lot to mean a strategy -- writing crafted to deceive or distract all but the closest readers -- rather than particular ideological tradition. <br /><br />In contrast, two certain NYT op-ed columnists have an academic lineage two steps removed from Strauss: one attended classes given by Strauss follower Harvey Mansfield and the other classes given by Strauss follower Allan Bloom.Steve Sailerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11920109042402850214noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-81016051051520388102013-11-05T16:25:15.799-08:002013-11-05T16:25:15.799-08:00Just because a writer is a cagey about what he'...<i> Just because a writer is a cagey about what he's really saying does not make him a Straussian.</i><br /><br />Cowen calls things Strausian all the time. It was a Cowen joke.Sidewaysnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-17214349306481979802013-11-05T16:06:57.573-08:002013-11-05T16:06:57.573-08:00"Bashing Israel is not going to help stop an ..."Bashing Israel is not going to help stop an immigration disaster in this country."<br /><br />Missing the point - again.<br /><br />There are 1000s of pundits in the MSM who say they support diversity and mass immigration because they say they believe it is beneficial.<br /><br />If that was true they'd want it for Israel too - but they don't.<br /><br />It's nothing to do with Israel per se. It's simply evidence that these media pundits think diversity and mass immigration is harmful to the majority and they support it despite or because it is harmful to the majority.<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-72455895495940523082013-11-05T15:50:58.732-08:002013-11-05T15:50:58.732-08:00I haven't read through all of the comments, bu...<i>I haven't read through all of the comments, but if someone else hasn't already pointed it out, Bryan Caplan *still* has "prole jacket gape."</i><br /><br />I noticed that too. It looks like it was caused by, or exacerbated by, the fact that he didn't unbutton his suit jacket while sitting down. Not unbuttoning your suit jacket while sitting down is also a prole or geek thing.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-3992723693432721682013-11-05T15:25:30.522-08:002013-11-05T15:25:30.522-08:00"Border Security is a bull. Illegals will alw..."Border Security is a bull. Illegals will always be able to get across the border even with a wall since they get smugglers."<br /><br />Border security is good for all sorts of reasons - including peace of mind.<br /><br />You are right that the only form of border security that will work *fully* in regards to illegal working is targeting the employers and making the cost vs benefit of employing illegals negative.<br /><br />If there's no demand for illegal workers the supply will dry up.<br />Greyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13398462488549380796noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-38529498332185780262013-11-05T15:20:49.602-08:002013-11-05T15:20:49.602-08:00"Isn't it funny how Jews are always for o..."Isn't it funny how Jews are always for open borders, except for Israel?"<br /><br />How do you know Caplan isn't for open borders for Israel, genius? The man happens to be rather hostile to Israel, like most libertarians, regardless of ethnic background.<br /><br />Bashing Israel is not going to help stop an immigration disaster in this country. But, if your real priority is screwing Israel, inundating the country with third world immigrants who don't give a shit about Israel, and will vote for far-left ideologues who hate Israel, is a good way to dilute what's left of the pro-Israel constituency in this country.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-11274754691274205392013-11-05T14:45:50.919-08:002013-11-05T14:45:50.919-08:00Isn't it funny how Jews are always for open bo...Isn't it funny how Jews are always for open borders, except for Israel?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-74571172420843752922013-11-05T14:23:22.495-08:002013-11-05T14:23:22.495-08:00I haven't read through all of the comments, bu...I haven't read through all of the comments, but if someone else hasn't already pointed it out, Bryan Caplan *still* has "prole jacket gape."<br /><br />http://thriftstorepreppy.wordpress.com/2012/04/17/avoid-prole-jacket-gape/Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-46884514458318588962013-11-05T14:04:29.749-08:002013-11-05T14:04:29.749-08:00Puerto Rico's economy has been helped greatly ...Puerto Rico's economy has been helped greatly by its use of the U.S. dollar as official currency, allowing it to avoid the currency disasters so common to other Latin American nations. Might not last much longer though. peterikenoreply@blogger.com