From FairTest:
| 2011 College-Bound Seniors Avg SAT Scores | ||||||||||||||||
| W/score changes from 2006 | ||||||||||||||||
| READING | MATH | WRITING | TOTAL | |||||||||||||
| ALL | 497 | (-6) | 514 | (-4) | 489 | (-8) | 1500 | (-18) | ||||||||
| Female | 495 | (-7) | 500 | (-2) | 496 | (-6) | 1491 | (-15) | ||||||||
| Male | 500 | (-5) | 531 | (-5) | 482 | (-9) | 1513 | (-19) | ||||||||
| Asian | 517 | (+7) | 595 | (+17) | 528 | (+16) | 1640 | (+40) | ||||||||
| White | 528 | (+1) | 535 | (-1) | 516 | (-3) | 1579 | (-3) | ||||||||
| Black | 428 | (-6) | 427 | (-2) | 417 | (-11) | 1272 | (-19) | ||||||||
| AmerIndian | 484 | (-3) | 488 | (-6) | 465 | (-9) | 1437 | (-18) | ||||||||
| Mexican | 451 | (-3) | 466 | (+1) | 445 | (-7) | 1362 | (-9) | ||||||||
| PR | 452 | (-7) | 452 | (-4) | 442 | (-6) | 1346 | (-17) | ||||||||
| Other Hisp | 451 | (-7) | 462 | (-1) | 444 | (-6) | 1357 | (-14) | ||||||||
I've been following baseball statistics since 1965 and educational test scores since 1972. Test scores are vastly more important for understanding how the world works, but they aren't as diverting because they seldom change. For example, in the above, whites are just treading water, down 1% of a standard deviation over half a decade. Boring. NAM scores are down, probably mostly because the College Board has been subsidizing more NAMs to take the SAT for free as a publicity move. In other words, it's probably not a real change.
But, wow, as I pointed out last year in writing about PSAT National Merit Semifinalists, Asians have just been pulling away from everybody else in the last few years.
Is the same trend true on low stakes tests, like most school achievement tests that are used to grade schools rather than students?
This is a big story and it deserves more research. Is the innate intelligence of Asians going up? Or does this prove that Tiger Mothering works? Is the SAT being unfairly gamed? There are a lot of questions here.
Hello, I'm Filipino.
ReplyDeleteWhat do the figures mean? That Asians are gaining or losing?
Of course, the only real inference that you can draw from these figures is that the USA will be dominated by an Asian elite decades hence.
ReplyDeleteIn your topic last year, I pointed out that Japanese-Americans were 1 percent of the PSAT finalists in California and 1 percent of the population. They were proportionally no more likely than white Californians (who slightly underperform the white national mean) to make PSAT finalist. Both groups have similar age demographics in California. Which suggests there's no IQ difference.
ReplyDeleteIn contrast, Koreans and Chinese are wildly overrepresented relative to whites. Jews, as you pointed out, are hardly represented at all on the PSAT finalist list.
My guess: cram schools. Asian newspapers and neighborhoods are full of advertisements for cram schools which claim to raise scores by hundreds of points. Every Tiger mom is making sure her little Chou Wei/Venkat/Kim-Sung is going to one every weekend. Lots of Asians start sending their kids to these places in junior high and, by high school, their children are in a strong position. Whites and Jews don't Tiger Mom, and NAMs aren't going to send their kids either.
The same can be seen on the GMAT. GMAT scores, which tend to be static over time, have risen pretty quickly in China and India over the last few years.
It's not surprising that people who come from cultures with long histories of standardized testing (China, Korea, etc.) tend to do pretty well on standardized tests.
If you read any of the critiques of Amy Chua, you'll notice that an awfully large number of them come from Jewish women. I guess they feel threatened that Asians are taking their children's place in the universities and stealing their men (Amy married a handsome Jewish professor) away from them. Asians, and probably Indians, are displacing Jews and there seems to be recognition of that.
ReplyDeleteDecades ago, Professor Flynn examined a large number of studies of Asian-American (Japanese and Chinese) IQ, including Project Talent and the Coleman Report. He found the Asian mean was 98.5, but Asians had higher SAT scores and better academic performance than whites and other races.
ReplyDeleteHis more recent finding is that the mean Chinese-American IQ has risen to 103. He credits rigorous home environment and more selective post-1965 immigration patterns for this.
Interesting that today, Japanese-Americans hardly at all carry the reputation for being academic superstars. Chinese, in contrast, are still going pretty strong.
But, wow, as I pointed out last year in writing about PSAT National Merit Semifinalists, Asians have just been pulling away from everybody else in the last few years.
ReplyDeleteI'd like to see data on whether 1) Asians are more likely to take SAT preparation courses, and 2) if such preparation actually helps to increase scores. It's my impression that the answers are 'Yes', and 'Yes', but I'm not sure.
Not to take anything away from Asian achievement here.
Anyway, perhaps for a 'citizenist' like Mr Sailer, this is just an interesting factoid.
But for someone with WN sympathies -- e.g. me, and anyone else who thinks a majority white America, and majority white American college campuses, have value and are worth preserving -- it's sad. Reminds me of walking across the Berkeley campus, where on any particular day there's a chance you'll see more Asian than white faces. And with demographics and scores trending the way they are, you'll be seeing fewer Whites and more Asians at UCB and other elite universities.
Sorry, but that just does not look like America to me.
Interesting that today, Japanese-Americans hardly at all carry the reputation for being academic superstars. Chinese, in contrast, are still going pretty strong.
ReplyDeleteChinese civilization is largely built on examinations. Chinese have had a test-based meritocracy in place for well over a thousand years. Anyone who passed the imperial exams - no matter what his background - officially raised his family's status for three generations.
Anyone interested in the long-term effects of officially sponsored eugenics in a mass society (as opposed to some minority sect) should study this aspect of Chinese history.
"Of course, the only real inference that you can draw from these figures is that the USA will be dominated by an Asian elite decades hence."
ReplyDeleteWill that be better or worse than America's current domination by a Jewish elite?
There's no doubt that tutoring and cram schools are the answer. I live in Monterey Park, CA, the first city in America to have a population which is predominantly Asian. Today Monterey Park is about 70% Asian, and the Asian population is almost exclusively comprised of first-generation immigrants. People in Monterey Park are mostly middle class folks. A number of wealthy Asians send their kids to the parochial school that our kids attend.
ReplyDeleteMost people have NO IDEA just how prevalent tutoring and cram schools are in the Asian community. Because we live in a predominantly Asian community, we know dozens of Asian families with school-aged children. Every single family, save two, has their kids tutored for at least two hours per day in the late afternoon after school ends -- beginning in preschool. As the kids get older, this increases to four hours per day. In other words, when school lets out at 3:00, tutoring begins at 4:00 and continues to 6:00. Then it's time for homework.
(A friend of ours just immigrated from China last year. She said that in China, kids attend school for twelve hours per day, starting at age five. I'm sure she is not exaggerating.)
Asian parents also informally supplement their kids' education even after school, and tutoring, is finished. If you go to the local public library on any afternoon, you'll see 7 and 8 year-old Asian kids and their moms returning 10-12 books and checking out 10-12 more. Often the mothers will refer to the kids' "reading list," making it clear that they are instructing their kids to read a certain number of books per week.
While this might seem excessive, even abusive, to Americans, in my experience Asian parents are mostly very nice people who care about their kids a great deal. They are tend to be outstanding parents. They just have a different set of expectations for how much work is appropriate for school-aged children.
They are practicing tests not going in cold like most of the others do. Their gains aren't much when you consider how hard they work for the score. Were whites to go through the same process you'd see SAT scores through the roof.
ReplyDelete(Cont'd)
ReplyDeleteAlso, while white people often think that Asian kids have an IQ advantage, the Asian parents we know (many of whom have degrees from Ivy League universities) do not believe that. They believe that academic performance is largely a matter of effort, and in my experience they are generally quite aware of their own kids' limitations. To them, education is always about maximizing their kids' potential.
Sure, there are some horror stories out there. For example, I attended law school at NYU with a woman who was a graduate of Harvard College. When her father learned that she hadn't been accepted to Harvard Law School, he did not speak to her for six months. Her dad was not hyper-educated himself, he owned a hardware store in the Bronx, but when his daughter failed to get into Harvard he felt that she had "dishonored" him. Her college roommate would be beaten by her parents whenever she failed to get less than an A.
But that stuff is mostly the exception rather than the
And frankly, there is a lot to be said for the Asian approach. Kids are probably better off reading for an extra hour a day than playing Xbox.
Even the Asian disciplinary techniques that Amy Chua describes in her book have their merits.
I do not agree with Asian parenting methods, not at all, and that's why we send our kids to a parochial school. I think that character is more important than academic performance; that academic success is not the be-all and end-all in life; and, finally, that Asian methods are not actually the most effective way to educate children. Asians have been emphasizing education for thousands of years, but have comparatively little to show for it. There is a reason why the West has always been more innovative. IMO that's because intensive drills and rote learning are not the best way to learn.
But our neighbor across the street is a violin instructor who is an old-school Asian disciplinarian, and we have our kids take lessons from her because I think it is good for them to get a limited exposure to the dragon lady approach. They are only exposed to it for two hours per week, rather than two hours per day, but it can't hurt to get a little taste of the tiger mother method.
The bottom line, IMO, is that cram schools and tutoring account for almost all of the difference in SAT scores. It is way more prevalent, and way more intense, than most people realize.
"(Amy married a handsome Jewish professor) away from them. "
ReplyDeleteGive up. No handsome, successful guy is going for a boring, average looking Asian. I don't even have to see a pic to know you're engaging in wishful thinking. No one else wanted the dweeb or they would've had him.
And, as a person who does well on standardized tests, I can tell you they are overrated as measures of IQ. Plenty of people get crap scores on such instruments yet have abilities I could never hope to emulate. People way too talented and valuable to be treated like second class citizens just because some overly ambitious Asians practice diligently to learn how to cheat on a test.
Sorry but Asians just aren't performing on real world measures of the verbal IQ that gets the SAT score over the top for your assertions to be true.
Fixing schools.
ReplyDelete"Of course, the only real inference that you can draw from these figures is that the USA will be dominated by an Asian elite decades hence."
ReplyDeleteYour performance on the SAT doesn't get you anything but the opportunity to enter certain universities. What you study, which for Asians is usually science or math intensive, determines your future career path not the score on a standardized test.
The Rick Perrys of the world who are verbally fluent, confident and charismatic will always outperform Asians in the power and influence game. A score sufficient to get into a decent university is all it takes. Actually, I'm pretty certain that the aptitude for doing well on SATs and the natural interaction style that develops a politician's network of friends and associates are mutually exclusive. Take a look at Gingrich, for example, the obsessive intellectualizing eventually ruined his career. For an Asian whose mostly only mimicking Western style reasoning this will keep them from ever being very successful in politics.
Asians don't really think and certainly aren't quick witted. It's great when you have time to boost your performance on a written exam but that's not going to help you in the fast moving, impromptu world of politics.
I spent two years teaching 6-8th grade in a Florida district that is roughly 1/3 white, 1/3 hispanic and 1/3 black with a smittering of everyone else. In my first year, a Filipino who was recently adopted, along with his adorable younger sister, by an elderly white couple absolutely dominated the spelling bee in a way that was difficult to comprehend. Having only been in the States for 1 year, his speed was at least double any other student. In my 7th grade class, a one-half Chinese girl was the highest scorer on the FCAT standardized tests. She scored near perfect on both reading and math despite being exceptionally lazy. The next highest scoring students where Columbians. During my second year, I had one sixth grade boy score perfectly on the state standardized test for reading and math. He is half black and half Hispanic; both parents being immigrants.
ReplyDeleteOverall, I was not impressed by white kids. They were not very intelligent. Some of them may have a strong acumen for reading but they lack curiosity and are weak logically. It is telling that all of my smartest students were foreign and that the lone halfie Chinese was the smartest of them all. The most curious boy, and the one that I would rate as most likely to have a spark was also an immigrant; although he was white.
It is probably a brutal reality that the USA needs smart immigrants as much as I hate to think that.
(Cont'd again)
ReplyDeleteMost educated Americans grew up with Asians, and went to school with them, but have no idea of their actual methods.
Most people probably think that Asian families tell their kids that education is important; encourage them to study; make sure that they do their homework; praise them for getting good grades and scold them for getting bad grades; and get them help if they are struggling.
But the truth is that they do WAY more than that -- 2-4 hours of tutoring every single night; 10-12 books per week from the library, etc.
It seems pretty obvious that any gap in achievement would disappear if white parents were to adopt Asian educational methods. This really is an instance in which environment wins out over heredity.
@Anon 12:15
ReplyDeleteEhh not really, keep in mind Asians only compromise 4-6% of America, with a stagnating fertility rate at best (lots of immigration though). White average scores are lower primarily because of the simple fact that whites make up ~70% of America. Meaning they have a lot of lower IQ whites dragging down the score. There are still plenty of capable whites to make up the 'elites'. Not that it's a more or less comforting factor, since both elites don't seem to be doing much for either of their people; i.e. East Asia is a miserable place even if you're living at such a high standard. And well.. western elites, I'll let you decide what you think of them.
@Anon 12:04
Gaining...
How come we don't get any stats for Jews, the most significant and powerful people in America?
ReplyDeleteOf course, the only real inference that you can draw from these figures is that the USA will be dominated by an Asian elite decades hence.
ReplyDeleteIf we pretend that SAT scores can accurately predict membership in the "elite", sure.
Looking at the white decline. We know that women outnumber men as test takers.
ReplyDeleteWe also know that the gap between Asian women and men is not as big as with whites.
So, are white men losing ground?
Are Asian men gaining?
Or is this just a case of white women bringing down the white average, while Asian women are not doing bringing down the Asian average much?
Many of today's Asian students are the progeny of H1b imported engineers/scientists. You would expect them to be smarter and better test takers.
ReplyDeleteOnething that should be looked at is the effects of immigration. My theory is that the recent wave of Asian immigrants are more selective. Due to both higher IQ and better work ethics. Their kids lifted the curve.
ReplyDeleteThis also explains why Japanese Americans are not shining as brightly as other Asian ethnic groups. There was not much immigration from Japan in recent decades compared to other groups.
OT, dunno if you've seen this article yet about the new Jayson Blair of high finance: http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/e6148290-df99-11e0-845a-00144feabdc0.html#axzz1Xxa6Gp1c
ReplyDeleteSeems like the typical story of an AA hire - smart black guy, not as smart as people want to think he is, too lazy/greedy/incompetent to succeed in the usual way, people who should've stopped him just try to avoid seeing a train-wreck-in-progress (that part isn't out yet, but I'm sure we'll hear about it) - and then the crash.
Kweku's in-over-my-head facebook posts are hilarious if you're, well, kinda mean.
The Japan question is interesting.
ReplyDeleteI will just provide a data point in that my brother in law married a Japanese woman (from Japan, but went to US university and worked in the US after).
I would have to say she is very laid back. She potty trained her first child fairly late and is sending them to public school with no music lessons.
She is really in to having them eat organic food, etc.
All very SWPL.
I assume Indians and Pakistanis are counted as Asian? How do they compare to the Orientals?
ReplyDeleteGood for them.
ReplyDeleteNon-American Chinese, Korean, and Indian elites are sending their teenagers to the USA - parachute kids - http://asianweek.com/070899/news_parachute.html,
ReplyDeleteothers are training for the test at home and then coming to the USA to take the test, either illegally (and getting status as 'illegal immigrants'™), on various types short term visas, probably mostly tourist; and others who already have status (eg 'citizens' through baby tourism) are taking the test outside the USA at possibly dubious test centers.
(http://sat.collegeboard.org/register/sat-international-dates)
("Because of the extraordinary security measures required in India and Pakistan there is an additional surcharge for testing in those countries.")
and then the Diversity Correct (DC) Universities and College Boards are calling them 'Asian Americans' in their statistics.
About the fall of White scores...
ReplyDeleteHas the immigration from white countries to the US increased during the measured segment of time (not as a percent of all immigrants, but relative to the white immigration before)? Immigrants who don't send their kids to cram schools can bring the average down, especially in English.
Let's see, pressure from above in the form of an elite group of super-achievers. Pressure from below from a mass of under-educated people driving down wages. When the middle faces pressure from above and below, how long till it explodes?
ReplyDeleteGood or bad, the next few decades will most certainly not be boring.
i've pointed out before that what this probably means is that east asians are now REALLY putting EVERYTHING into studying for academics and truly discarding every other life option. because, the numbers for all people from asia are put into that US "asian" category. southeast asians and islanders are not that good at school which means they are bringing the "asian" numbers down, so for the chinese and south korean students their numbers are up even more than the statistics say. not many japanese students left, so it's a total chinese and south korean wave of pure book nerds.
ReplyDeleteGreat work! I have a couple posts on this from before the new data arrived. I shall wait to see if they will send me their older reports before I update the graphs on my blog. The difference between black and white increased participation still shows that black people are increasing their participation at a faster rate than white people, which could explain having another year of a worsening black-white writing sub-test gap, just as you suggest. However, Asians increased their participation by 11% this year, slightly more than black people, and the difference between increased Asian and increased white participation is greater than it has ever been. Therefore, the fact that Asians continued to increase their score advantage over whites and blacks on the math and writing sub-tests is even more remarkable than it seems. As always, the gap between blacks and whites is larger on the math sub-test, which should have less cultural bias. Asians have their largest advantage on the math sub-test, as well, which could result from actual cultural bias or English-as-a-second-language masking an all-around higher ability or that the highly offensive stereotype of Asians being good at math is based on a highly offensive reality.
ReplyDeletejody (The Wicked):
ReplyDelete"east asians are now REALLY putting EVERYTHING into studying for academics and truly discarding every other life option."
Stop embarrassing white people with your outrageousness.
i just noticed the american indian numbers are a good amount above the mexican numbers. that would be basically a disaster if those categories were pretty rigid and well defined. it would mean the coming majority in many states performs at an academic level below american indians. american indians do nothing in any field. and i've argued many times on here that mexicans do almost nothing in any field despite there being almost 150 million of them.
ReplyDeleteif they are gonna perform BELOW american indian levels, that's a catastrophe for the united states. the liberals like to talk about vibrancy but it's the exact opposite. mexicans could not be less genuinely vibrant. like most third worlders they are static, unchanging, and not dynamic. they are boring. they bring no vibrant change to a society and will not be the primary forces behind any world changing industry or cultural phenomenon. they'll mostly just turn US states in crappy, corrupt second world backwaters. any places where they become the dominant group will fall behind the north and northeast, western europe, and east asia on the global importance and competition scale. basically, on the "What comes from here?" report, those places will lapse into radio silence. nothing important to US national culture or world culture will come from those places ever again.
but because these two categories are not sharp, well defined groups, but have fuzzy, shifting boundaries, it's not as clear what's happening. how american indian do you have to be to be in the american indian group? probably most of those people are half european. likewise for mexicans, who in the US, are almost all part indian as well, although from tribes south of the US. how european are the mexicans in this data set?
Anyone interested in the long-term effects of officially sponsored eugenics in a mass society (as opposed to some minority sect) should study this aspect of Chinese history.
ReplyDeleteWhy? It's totally irrelevant to us. Those eugenic effects don't apply if the women are doing something besides having babies, dummy.
Every iSteve post about Asian IQ or test scores brings out the following WN response:
ReplyDelete"Asians only score higher because they study harder. Test scores mean nothing."
Of course, on threads about blacks and hispanics the WN view is:
"Whites have higher scores. It means we're genetically superior -- all 15 points of the IQ difference is genetic, even though blacks can't sit still and are out in the streets all night! Tests are the only meritocratic way to allot seats at university and jobs to cops and firefighters."
I went to a high school with a lot of Jews and few Asians. I was also in the "gifted" program, which I guess was for people with IQ>130. The gifted program had a lot of Jews but some non-Jews as well. One thing I noticed is that the gifted Jews seemed to be more academically oriented, more interested in taking AP classes and attending Ivy League colleges. More of the gifted non-Jews were content with going to state U.
ReplyDeleteAs Jews intermarry and become more of the elite, they seem to be less obsessed with SAT scores and things like National Merit. Asian kids and parents are probably much more obsessed with these things, maybe similar to how Jews used to be a generation or two ago, and maybe even more so. Meanwhile, Jews don't make up a huge percentage of athletes at Ivies, but it's still probably more than the Asian percentage. Maybe Jews are now becoming more well-rounded as they get more and more integrated into the upper class.
"Overall, I was not impressed by white kids. They were not very intelligent. Some of them may have a strong acumen for reading but they lack curiosity and are weak logically. It is telling that all of my smartest students were foreign and that the lone halfie Chinese was the smartest of them all. The most curious boy, and the one that I would rate as most likely to have a spark was also an immigrant; although he was white.
ReplyDeleteIt is probably a brutal reality that the USA needs smart immigrants as much as I hate to think that."
White kids in a two thirds black/Hispanic school in FL are likely to be considerably below average.
It's funny that white Americans created the most prosperous, free and technologically advanced society in history without any help from Asian immigrants.
(1) we probably get the cream of the crop of Asian immigrants.
ReplyDelete(2) White lower-class women seem to have lots more kids than white upper-class women. White educated women might pop out a kid or two at 35. So whites will be becoming dumber unless we start punishing high-IQ whites who do not reproduce.
(3) Asians will not become the elite. superstudy, sneaky fuckers as they are will try, oh they'll try, but whites will keep their numbers to acceptable minimums.
"Stop embarrassing white people with your outrageousness."
ReplyDeletei'm just saying what i've observed. which matches up with what joe schmoe has posted. you only get 24 hours in a day. if you put 12 of them into studying a math book there is no time for any other activity or pursuit. this is a concept even a dumb white guy like me can grasp. steve has covered this topic of "time poured into activity x" many times. and this is a good example.
how many thousands of hours of cramming is required to increase SAT scores by 40 points? let's go WAY low in our assumptions. east asians spend 1 extra hour per day per year. so that's 365 days a year, 1 extra hour a day, for 12 years. 4380 extra hours poured into just studying for tests. so that means we're at about 109 hours of additional cramming required per additional SAT point scored. it's rather like a role playing game, isn't it? because that's how they approach it. like creating a character in world of warcraft. the chinese are obsessed with that game. the south koreans, with starcraft.
if we use joe schmoe's estimates, the ROI is much lower than 109:1. and we can be pretty confident it does not scale linearly. like learning an instrument, to achieve the next level of proficiency, it requires a doubling of time commitment. 1 hour a day gets you an extra 5 points, but to get an extra 10 points you need 2 hours a day, to get an extra 20 points you need 4 hours a day, and so forth.
i think we can assume that IQ tests ARE measuring...something. and that whatever they are measuring, it applies fairly directly to academic testing. so i would assume that if the people in japan and south korea score about 5 points higher on IQ tests than the people in england and germany, then holding all other factors equal, the relevant one here being time spent preparing for the test, the east asians would do a little better. in my opinion, intelligence tests seem to be measuring primarily the capacity to remember and learn. so IQ test results match up exactly with commonly held stereotypes - east asians ARE slightly better at learning. but, maybe, not problem solving.
i've posted many, many times about this. i've tried to support my argument with evidence, pointing out that east asians do not appear frequently at the top of almost any brainpower field that is somewhat removed from what they can study in a university. if they can't study the material already laid out for them in a book, they usually aren't there. they aren't around. the 12 million ashkenazi jews in the world are sometimes there, but the 1.5 billion east asians aren't.
ReplyDeletethis doesn't necessarily have to be the case. i don't like the argument where people put down east asians and say they can't be creative or innovate. i think they can, and they have sometimes. they can also step into other non-academic pursuits and have some success. they may not become the best but they can do ok. but right now, especially in the US, most of them are rigidly locked up in a tiny little box. "Dad said I can be anything I want. Doctor or engineer."
Schools like UCI, UCLA, Berkeley, and others are either already dominated by Asians (UCI) or soon will be. There are more Asian students at UCLA than Whites, for example. This has severe implications for public education policy.
ReplyDeleteFirst, you cannot expect the White middle class, still the tax base for California and other places, to pay for education of everyone BUT their kids, when they fall behind Asians in test scores and admission behind all non-Whites due to anti-White preferences.
Secondly, you'll see continued efforts to get into non-Asian dominated schools in places like South Dakota, or Wyoming, that are public and low-cost, or demand for mostly White private universities in various states. White flight will prop up tuition prices like it has real estate since the post-War era, until that too crashes because Whites cannot pay for it anymore.
Third, continued out-sourcing, H1Bs, and the like affect Asian students just as much as Whites. Heavy focus on easily outsourced/H1-B'd concentrations like Math, Science, Engineering, etc. make Asians as vulnerable as White professionals before them. An engineer in Vietnam costs Boeing about 25% of what the cost is in the US.
Is the innate intelligence of Asians going up?
ReplyDeleteNo. If it was "innate" intelligence, it shouldn't be going up.
Besides, what's the explanation for the uninspiring performance of Japanese-Americans? Last I checked, Japan was the most successful of the East Asian tigers, so I doubt they're any dimmer.
These PSAT finalist results for Asians in California tend to suggest that they're smarter than Jews. Which I highly doubt. Interestingly, Jewish-American have a higher mean SAT score, but relatively few 1 percent PSAT high scorers.
So who won the Opium Wars?
ReplyDeleteThe country lead by people who did well on standardised tests?
Or the country with people who invented the steam engine, etc.?
Any wagers whether this guy was an affirmative action hire?
ReplyDeletehttp://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/banksandfinance/8764363/City-rogue-trader-Kweku-Adoboli-arrested-over-2bn-UBS-loss.html
London looters were small potatoes. THIS is the real way to steal from the white man.
ReplyDeleteJody, stop letting facts getting in the way of theory.
ReplyDeleteDespite the highly hypothetical nature of IQ and SAT tests (in that that are lots of unknowns involved in both tests and it is not entirely clear what they both measure), in the minds of many people they are more important than the FACT that Asians arent present at the highest levels of intellectual performance despite trying really hard for the past 150 years at least.
You see, the IQ and SAT have this patina of *science*, despite the fact that they are riddled with hypotheticals and theories, and so mere *facts* like Asian underperformance are not allowed to get in the way.
I used to make arguments like yours all the time, but I all I would get was, *well, IQ test show this blah blah blah*. In other words, facts OTHER than IQ or SAT tests are not allowed to say anything about Asian intelligence, you simply are not allowed to factor them in.
I interact with Asians all day. I like them. They are smart and friendly, but there is a HUGE disconnect between Asian intellectual performance in the real world and their *scores*.
The OBVIOUS conclusion is to say that since the tests involve hypotheticals and unknowns, whereas Asian intellectual underperformance is a hard, brute fact, it makes more sense to reconsider the tests.
But few people are prepared to say that, because the tests have this patina of *science*, while facts are just, well, facts.
No, Asians are not going to be the *elites*, but they are excellent extremely hard-working moderately intelligent people who contribute a lot to this society.
OMG. Yes Steve, Asians are getting smarter. Wake up. Do your kids go to schools with any Asians? They all go to tutoring and prep classes. Their moms have them doing worksheets when they are toddlers. What is with your Asian worship? Get a clue.
ReplyDelete"If you read any of the critiques of Amy Chua, you'll notice that an awfully large number of them come from Jewish women."
ReplyDeleteBut why did the Jewish-dominated publishing world give green light to such book in the first place?
Would it have allowed Battle Hymn of the Teutonic Mother(or why white people need to study harder to compete with Jews and Asians?)
Interestingly enough, though Jews are the most successful people in the US, there hasn't been many mainstream books by Jews or non-Jews on HOW TO SUCCEED THE JEWISH WAY. There are some books along those lines, and I remember one interview on Charlie Rosebut few and far between. Generally, Jews shy away from sharing their secrets. Jews would rather share some of their wealth(by higher taxes and charity)than share the very formula that made them more successful in the first place. Of course, the main secret is higher Jewish IQ, which means that the main agenda of any people seeking greatness should be eugenics, which, btw, doesn't mean dumb people must be sterilized; it can simply mean smart people should have more kids, and indeed Jewgenics was just that. Jews didn't forbid dumb Jews from mating; it's just that smart Jews have more kids in the past(or more kids that survived).
But there are cultural factors too, and it's to the credit of the KIPP guy that he is value-and-discipline-centric than a pusher of useless fashionable theories of education which crop up so often in the pages of the Ny Times. In other words, a kind of fascism works for schooling, especially with problem kids.
Anyway, why did Jews give green light to Amy Chua's book? There could have been multiple reasons.
1. Yellow peril market. For those who wanna read about why them yellers are rising across the Pacific so fast. Whether Chua was joking or not, she seemed to gloat about the yellow way. She was filled with chua-tzpah. This is useful for Jews in diverting our attention from Jewish power. To be sure, Alan Dershowitz wrote a Jewish power book called Chutzpah but he played on righteous victimology, which is not what Chua's book is about. According to Dershowitz, Jews are a long suffering people who must stand up and demand equality and power that is due them(as if they didn't have enough of it already). So, his arrogance puts goyim morally on the defensive. There is so such in Amy Chua's book(or that's the sense I get since I aint read it). There is a constant refrain in Dershowitz's book that goes, 'you goyim owe us, you goyim owe us, even as we Jews grow richer and more powerful than you dimwit morons', but Chua doesn't go for baiting white guilt. She doesn't dredge up all the history of discrimination and etc experienced by the Chinese at the hands of the West(or that's what I'm guessing since I haven't read the book). She just says her way is the strong and superior, and if you wanna win, that's what you gotta do with your kids. Make them tough.
2. Sober-ization message. With trashy pop culture and poor attitude among so many young, many white/Jewish liberals are kinda beginning to realize that permissiveness failed or at least went too far. But for them to admit as much would mean that they had been wrong, and NO ONE wants to admit they're wrong.
ReplyDeleteSo, by putting forth Amy Chua to make the argument, they can play it both ways. On the one hand, they are getting the 'we gotta return to seroius parenting message' out there. On the other hand, they can feign shock at Chua's harsh means and put on liberal airs. Just like the devious general in PATHS OF GLORY.
3. Yellow fetish market, which is both the opposite and corollary to the yellor peril market. In the 90s, there was an international scandal about some white kid sentenced to be whipped in the ass with a bamboo rod in Singapore for vandalism. Suprisingly, many Americans supported the measure. What with kids getting away with too much shit in America, it was refreshing to see the kid get his comeuppance.
Similarly, it could be some Americans wanna believe that Asians are now embodying and practicing what had been Western values of fortitude, hard work, and disicipline.
No, Asians are not going to be the *elites*, but they are excellent extremely hard-working moderately intelligent people who contribute a lot to this society.
ReplyDeleteI mostly agree with this, but I disagree on Asians not becoming the elite. It's hard to see how Asians don't become a large part of the elites. They have pursue higher educational credentials in disproportionately high numbers, and those credentials lead to high income and influence, as Half Sigma as used data to point out (on his blog).
Asians are more introverted, highly beta, conformist, verbally average, non-charismatic, and lower in leadership qualities. So less likely to make CEO or manager. However, most people don't ever make those positions. The average man is an accountant or a paper pusher or data cruncher. In these mid to high level office jobs, Asians will win out due to their higher level of education.
"Besides, what's the explanation for the uninspiring performance of Japanese-Americans? Last I checked, Japan was the most successful of the East Asian tigers, so I doubt they're any dimmer."
ReplyDeleteHow many pure Japanese-Americans are there? I would think a whole bunch of them mixed with other Americans by now. They arrived earlier than Koreans and for whatever reason seems to have adapated better into white commuity than the Chinese--even despite the thing with internment during WWII.
I don't think Japantowns in America were ever so ethnocentric as Chinatowns. Maybe the cultural minimalism of Japanese made it easier for them to fit into American culture. Chinese, in contrast, are very characteristically in Chinese in so many areas: noise, smells, foods, knick knacks, attitude, behavior, manners, etc.
Already selective universities seem to be putting quotas on Asians. As the Asian percentage of the population and the Asian SAT score continue to increase, the quotas are probably going to become more stringent.
ReplyDeleteIt's like among whites, the less rowdy Germans and Scandinavians adapted to wasp America better than the drunken Irish or crazy eye-talians.
ReplyDeleteAny wagers whether this guy was an affirmative action hire?
ReplyDeleteI dunno man. West Africans are first class scammers in terms of effort and aspiration (what is Nigeria known for but 419 scams?), bankstas are first class scammers in terms of achievement. Maybe these things just go together naturally anyway?
"She was filled with chua-tzpah."
ReplyDelete!
"Any wagers whether this guy was an affirmative action hire?"
ReplyDeleteI'd wager on whether he has more money than you.
Every iSteve post about Asian IQ or test scores brings out the following WN response
ReplyDelete"Asians only score higher because they study harder. Test scores mean nothing."
Every iSteve post about Asian IQ beings out Yan Shen bashing the usual collection of strawmen.
Any wagers whether this guy was an affirmative action hire?
ReplyDeleteWouldn't you have to be pretty smart to get away with that for so long?
However, Asians increased their participation by 11% this year, slightly more than black people, and the difference between increased Asian and increased white participation is greater than it has ever been. Therefore, the fact that Asians continued to increase their score advantage over whites and blacks on the math and writing sub-tests is even more remarkable than it seems.
ReplyDeleteLet's not forget that the number of foreigners taking the test may be going up. The Asians in these numbers may not even be here. They may never have set foot in the US. They have to take the SAT to get into the college they want, but they don't have to come here to take the test. It is administered elsewhere.
"Already selective universities seem to be putting quotas on Asians. As the Asian percentage of the population and the Asian SAT score continue to increase, the quotas are probably going to become more stringent."
ReplyDeleteTrue, and these universities are basically the entries into the elite. But getting into top colleges isn't sufficient to be in the elite. Asians don't have what it takes in most other respects.
for those who think Asians are smart and friendly, they put on a nice face, but are brutal backstabbers.
Interestingly enough, though Jews are the most successful people in the US, there hasn't been many mainstream books by Jews or non-Jews on HOW TO SUCCEED THE JEWISH WAY. There are some books along those lines, and I remember one interview on Charlie Rosebut few and far between. Generally, Jews shy away from sharing their secrets,
ReplyDeleteWhat a bunch of BS. Every parenting book out there besides Amy Chua's and fundie Christian books are from the liberal Jewish perspective. They basically tell you how to raise kids that are born with high IQ and sensitive personality traits. That is why parenting has become such hell for so many. They don't have those kinds of kids. They have ornery little brats. Traditional and fundie Christians ignore that kind of advice as do the Asians, but many other folks, especially women and it is a freakin' disaster.
According to College Board, a lot of Asian-Americans taking the test are living in Asia. They tend to even outscore our Asian-Americans on the SAT. Which is interesting.
ReplyDeleteThe LA Times reports that whites in California outscored Asians.
ReplyDeleteI think one problem among Asians is college-centricism. For most white kids, college is a way or a bridge to something else. College may be cool, college may be fun, and/or college may be prestigious, but it is primarily a passage to something else.
ReplyDeleteI think Asians--especially Asian immigrants--think differently. For them, college itself is the highest peak of one's life. Going to good college means (1) honor for family (2) pride in self (3) sense of having entered the castle.
In the Confucian order, learning and teaching are the highest virtues, so schools are almost sacred. Going to the best school means entering a kind of heaven. Success, wealth, and power may await the college graduate, but all such worldly matters are not as respectable as being in the center of knowledge and wisdom, the hall of the philosopher kings. Elite colleges are to Asians what the Vatican is to the Catholic clergy.
Paradoxically, this may explain why Asian-Americans often have disappointing careers after college compared to Jews and smart whites. Jews and whites see college as a means, not the end. They figure they gotta take college seriously to move up to the next step and go out and succeed in the big world. Asians, otoh, feel they've MADE IT by the sheer virtue of being admitted to an elite college. So, they take it easy. I've heard this is one reason why even top Asian colleges suck. Students there think they've made it and they take it easy. Asians work hard to get to college but work less hard once there. Also, it could be asians are more into the prestige of wisdom than wisdom itself. Being less individualistic, their sense of truth is less about "what I think" than "what lofty institution I belong to". So, if a Jew at Harvard feels, "I gotta think up a storm and make my mark in life", an Asian might feel, "Hey, I'm in Harvard, so I made my mark already by the virtue of being around all these smart people." Also, I think Asians think it bad form for some thinker or intellectual, especially if young, to boldly express or show off his ideas. It upsets the sense of hierarchy. It means he's overstepping his bounds. If Einstein had been Asian, he might have shut up about E = MC2. I think in the Talmudic tradition, a rabbi took pride in having students who argued well and even overshadowed the rabbi himself. But Asian sages would prolly not take kindly to losing their face by being bettered by a student or inferior. So, smart young Asians filled with creative ideas keep their heads bowed before superiors. (This applies in the West when it comes to political correctness. People of all ages and races keep their mouth shut on certain topics. Even the much venerated James Watson found out the hard way when he spoke candidly.)
I heard that in Asia, it's still common for college students to call older students 'big brother'. What a bunch of nimrods.
ReplyDeleteIt could be Japanese-Americans are less into this rat-race since there have been very few Japanese immigrants to the US since after WWII. They've wised up as Americans. They see college as a process, and they don't feel they have to go to the 'best college' to eventually make a mark on life. College is a bridge to the future, not the castle of one's life.
Immigrant Asians may have a different view. Asian society is more regimented and hierarchical. Before college, it means cram schools. After college, it means being an orderly citizen who fits in. So, college is the only time when one can relatively be 'free' and 'be oneself'. So, college is seen as some kind of paradise one treasures for the rest of one's life. College is less a bridge to the future(as a student)than a bridge to the past(as a worker looking back on the good ole days).
In America, though college life is culturally important, I think the defining period for most people is highschool(Dazed and Confused, Breakfast Club, Wanderers, etc), or summer right after graduation from highschool(American Graffiti). Partly, it could be a reflection of America's democratic nature. Everyone goes to highschool, not all go to college. And since American highschool students do have lots of freedom, it's when they 'discover themselves', whereas many Asians are too busy cram-studying during highschool and find themselves only in college.
"They are practicing tests not going in cold like most of the others do. Their gains aren't much when you consider how hard they work for the score. Were whites to go through the same process you'd see SAT scores through the roof."
ReplyDeleteI doubt it, but I think whites have the potential to do as well. Standardized tests like the SAT and GRE are an accurate IQ test only when they measure the results of identical levels of preparation and effort. But preparation must start in junior high to see 200 - 300 point gains in the SAT v+m.
"Why do Jews succeed?"
ReplyDeleteThis is pretty good but no mention of IQ. After all, Jews are not only successful but hyper-successful.
Chinese civilization is largely built on examinations. Chinese have had a test-based meritocracy in place for well over a thousand years. Anyone who passed the imperial exams - no matter what his background - officially raised his family's status for three generations.
ReplyDeleteWhile modern western civilization is largely based on job interviews and vaporous "social skills". My experience tells me that the people with the most "social skills" are the biggest a-holes.
Wait. American Indians are smarter than Mexicans?
ReplyDeleteI heard that in Asia, it's still common for college students to call older students 'big brother'. What a bunch of nimrods.
ReplyDeleteIt's not a school thing, but a general thing. They'll call an older male that they're friends with or close to 'big brother'.
It seems like white people are trying to explain the increased score compared to whites on studying.
ReplyDeleteBut couldn't black people make that same claim?
White people may not try as hard as Asians. But Whites definitely put in more effort than blacks do.
Does this mean that the greater score that white people show can be explained by white people studying more?
"I guess they feel threatened that Asians are taking their children's place in the universities and stealing their men (Amy married a handsome Jewish professor) away from them."
ReplyDeleteHave you ever MET a Jewish woman? Are you surprised?
"Will that be better or worse than America's current domination by a Jewish elite?"
Well, Israel can't survive without America, so it has to keep America alive and relatively strong. China has no such compunctions.
"They basically tell you how to raise kids that are born with high IQ and sensitive personality traits. That is why parenting has become such hell for so many. They don't have those kinds of kids. They have ornery little brats. Traditional and fundie Christians ignore that kind of advice as do the Asians, but many other folks, especially women and it is a freakin' disaster."
I think you're on to something here...that said, Jews are plenty ornery, just not physically aggressive. But verbally, oh boy.
"Anyway, Jews own most of publishing and they write a lot of books. But they rarely discuss the SECRET HOW-TO when it comes to Jewish power. (And when they do, they mostly bullshit, e.g. "Jews are successful cuz they respect learning"--as if Anglos, Germans, and Asians don't--or "Jews got good at business cuz they weren't allowed to own land"--but gypsies weren't allowed to own land either.)"
What secret how-to? Study hard, save money, and favor your relatives? That's how the Anglos and Germans BUILT this country, for crying out loud...remember Adams and Quincy Adams? Same dirty trick every other successful group plays. The Germans only got beat down in their homeland because they have lousy geography (surrounded by enemies) and wacky leaders (the Kaiser was a moron, and Hitler really overplayed his hand; when Bismarck was in charge, Germany was on the way up). As for the Brits, well, no empire lasts forever. They had the biggest empire in history, which sounds pretty good to me. The Chinese happened to be on the wrong end of the world and missed out on the Renaissance and the scientific revolution. But I think the presence of Japan as a world power (they picked the wrong side in WW2) shows yellow people are more than capable of doing the science-and-industry thing.
As for the Gypsies...well, they didn't become bankers and businessmen.
"Wait. American Indians are smarter than Mexicans?"
ReplyDeleteWell, they did get the casinos.
The reason why asians, who have the highest IQ scores, have not made up the bulk of the "super rich alphas" of society is because of discrimination.
ReplyDeleteThere are a lot of white people who are threatened by Asians. So they bring out the old canard about Asians lacking creativity and such.
This discrimination isn't just racial however. High IQ whites are discriminated against as well. The real people who are making it in society today are the people who are good at bullshitting.
Charisma trumping IQ in our present society.
"Wait. American Indians are smarter than Mexicans?"
ReplyDeleteYou only have to be some x% native Am. to claim benefits, so yeah, people who have that x% do use it to their advantage. Of course for statistical purposes, they are lumped in with folks that have much more native Am ancestry, so the group average is lower than the white average, but higher than Mexicans.
"And, as a person who does well on standardized tests, I can tell you they are overrated as measures of IQ."
ReplyDeleteBull: Standardized tests - notably the SAT and ACT - are good measures of intelligence as indicated by their strong correlation with g and IQ (r ~ .82).
See, e.g.,
Coyle, T. R.; Pillow, D. R. (2008). "SAT and ACT predict college GPA after removing g". Intelligence 36 (6): 719–729.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3090148/?tool=pubmed
"I'd like to see data on whether 1) Asians are more likely to take SAT preparation courses, and 2) if such preparation actually helps to increase scores."
ReplyDeleteThe question of whether "[SAT] preparation actually helps helps to increase socres" has been studied extensively. The preponderance of evidence from "coaching" studies - comparing SAT gains for coached versus uncoached groups - is that test prep produces trivial gains. In one review, coaching effects (coached-uncoached) were 8 and 18 points for SAT-V and SAT-M, respectively (2% and 4% of 1 SD).
See, e.g.,
http://www.collegeboard.com/prod_downloads/highered/ra/sat/coaching.pdf
"Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteIt seems like white people are trying to explain the increased score compared to whites on studying.
But couldn't black people make that same claim?
White people may not try as hard as Asians. But Whites definitely put in more effort than blacks do.
Does this mean that the greater score that white people show can be explained by white people studying more?
9/15/11 5:19 PM"
Are you saying the achievement gap is not genetic? But ... but, is that not the raison d'être of this blog?
"smarter than an Asian said...
ReplyDeleteThey are practicing tests not going in cold like most of the others do. Their gains aren't much when you consider how hard they work for the score. Were whites to go through the same process you'd see SAT scores through the roof.
9/15/11 7:18 AM"
So how did you figure out that you are smarter than every single Asian in this country? Just because you are white? That is a pretty stupid way of gauging someone's intelligence, don't you think? In other words, you are not that smart ...
That being said, since we are on the subject of hypothetical "what ifs," what if white people stops being racist tomorrow and starts to hire and promote people based on merit, would corporate middle and upper management reflect the demographics of elite universities? What if, what if.
"Also, while white people often think that Asian kids have an IQ advantage, the Asian parents we know (many of whom have degrees from Ivy League universities) do not believe that."
ReplyDeleteWell, they may not believe that but, compared to whites and blacks, Asians have traits that contribute to higher levels of g: Bigger brains, faster RT, faster NCV (see Rushton's work).
The Asians from lower class families usually have parents that are hardcore about studying, because they didn't make the cut back home. It's just like some guys are super hard on their kids with sports, because they couldn't cut it when they were younger. So they can over preform compared to their innate ability.
ReplyDeleteAsians from higher class families are generally blessed with loaded genetics (1-2 parents with advanced degrees in STEM), so I'd expect them to do significantly better anyways.
Of course, the only real inference that you can draw from these figures is that the USA will be dominated by an Asian elite decades hence.
ReplyDeleteThe current Ashkenazi elite has ways of maintaining its position:
http://racehist.blogspot.com/2010/07/merit-in-elite-college-admissions.html#more
https://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/30/nyregion/30medschools.html
"Of course, the only real inference that you can draw from these figures is that the USA will be dominated by an Asian elite decades hence."
ReplyDeleteWell, if Asians are the most capable, and if their fruits are justly earned - through individual merit and without regard to tribal affiliation - then to be "dominated by such an elite" would be a triumph of the American experiment.
I would bet on it being gamed.
ReplyDelete"Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteI heard that in Asia, it's still common for college students to call older students 'big brother'. What a bunch of nimrods."
You heard wrong, nimrod. "Big brother" is just an amicable way for friends to address an older friend, whom they respect.
But what can I expect from an ignorant white supremacist who has never owned a passport or befriended anybody who is not white?
"Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteIt seems like white people are trying to explain the increased score compared to whites on studying.
But couldn't black people make that same claim?
White people may not try as hard as Asians. But Whites definitely put in more effort than blacks do.
Does this mean that the greater score that white people show can be explained by white people studying more?"
What? So are you saying that the achievement gap is not genetic? But is this not the raison d'être of this blog?
And here is my crossing my fingers to this comment not seeing the light of day.
"Udolpho.com said...
ReplyDeleteI would bet on it being gamed.
9/15/11 7:42 PM"
If by "gamed", you meant "studied for it", then I am pretty sure every single kid out there who has already taken the SAT has "gamed" it to different degrees, especially those preppy white kids from rich families. For those rich white kids who does not "game" so hard, I guess there is always the "ungamed" option of legacy admissions. That is how real honest white folks get into the Ivys, unlike those "gaming" Asians.
The SAT is an incredibly easy test to game. The College Board claims you can't study for it, but that's complete malarky.
ReplyDeleteIt's just a matter of memorizing a bunch of bullshit vocabulary and math puzzles.
Personally I raised my score by about 200 points (out of 1600) after just a couple months of prep.
Tiger moms who force their kids to study for the SAT for years can easily squeeze out gains of hundreds of points.
White suburbanites in the cities where lots of Asians live have caught onto the SAT gaming scam, and have started demanding test prep in the schools. It's probably just flyover state whites who are the laggards.
"like UCI, UCLA, Berkeley, and others are either already dominated by Asians (UCI) or soon will be. There are more Asian students at UCLA than Whites, for example."
ReplyDeleteLet me guess why, 'kay, Whiskey? 'Cuz I've been such a good pupil of yours, and all.
It's because White women hatehatehate betas. And Asians are oh, so very alpha, so White women want them imported so they can increase the supply of Alphas for themselves. Right?
Or wait.
No. Asian men are extremely not alpha. They are the quintessential betas. Hmm.
Okay, I know. I got it now.
It's because White women want to see ugly non-White women imported so they look better by comparison and rich White Alpha men will compete for them. Yeah, yeah, that's it.
Or, wait. We're told Asian women are actually more feminine, petite and submissive and such. So that doesn't work for an explanation, either.
Darn.
Guess we'll just have to blame the rich, anti-White, guys, who want to drive down betas' wages with cheap H1-B labor, for this one.
Rats. The Whiskey Grand Unified Theory of Everything Is the Fault of White Women just got reductio'ed to absurdumity.
Japan needs smart Chinese immigrants. Good thing China has millions of potential candidates, because Japan needs all the help it can get.
ReplyDeleteIsrael, too. Israel needs Needs NEEDS a million or so smart Chinese and Indian immigrants. Needs them so bad, dumber Israelis (Mean IQ<100) should be removed to make room.
The reason why asians, who have the highest IQ scores, have not made up the bulk of the "super rich alphas" of society is because of discrimination.
ReplyDeleteThere are a lot of white people who are threatened by Asians. So they bring out the old canard about Asians lacking creativity and such.
This discrimination isn't just racial however. High IQ whites are discriminated against as well. The real people who are making it in society today are the people who are good at bullshitting.
Charisma trumping IQ in our present society.
Think about how bad it would be if there were no SAPs bravely battling against this tide of White discrimination!
I don't know from studies, but I gained over a hundred points on the old (early 90s) SAT by taking a few hours of prep class and reading a couple of prep books.
ReplyDeleteIn my case, the "you guys are hypocrites because blacks, whites, yellows, etc." thing does not apply.
ReplyDeleteBecause I've never simply chalked Whites outperforming Blacks to IQ. I've always thought it obvious that there are other personality metrics at work in the White-Black gap, so it only makes sense that I would attribute the White-Yellow gap to other metrics, too.
I'm not an IQ fetishist WRT to the W-B gap so why should I be an IQ fetishist WRT the W-Y gap?
When Yellows start out-punching Whites in terms of innovation, and sustain a lead for a century or so, I'll be impressed. Until then, I'm going to suspect there's more to achievement than IQ. Or even IQ + Conscientiousness. The Chinese have both in spades, but so far the billion of them are following the path Whites blazed, then paved and lined with rest stops and gas stations.
Now, swamping the west with aliens is a good way to put a stop to the contest...
I think with Asians.. the philosophy is 'practice makes perfect'.
ReplyDeletewhy don't supposed math genius Asians rule wall street and all other markets across the globe?
ReplyDeleteBecause it is the distribution of IQ that produces superstars in a field. Whites have more geniuses and more idiots than asians.
E.G. ethnic german science behind the nazi war machine vs ethnic Japanese science behind their ww2 empire. The military driven tech of the nazis was astounding and was moved in whole to the USA. Nazi tech and personnel played a huge role in American post war dominance on the ground in the air and in space
I think creativity is the way a LOT of WASPs like to assert or justify their dominance over other people, not just Asians, Mexicans, and Blacks, but also over other white ethnics. I've experienced this time and time again. Too the point that I'll be cliched just to get the annoying WASP SOB off my back. Sometimes it's a credentialed teacher, sometimes just some rand SOB. Only the the Jews are excepted, but they seem to be co-conspirators in the US (buy ins). Shame on the Slavs, the Meds, and even, EVEN Indian sub-continentals and Middle Easterners who band-wagon on this concept of WASP led white creativity. Shame on you if you do. Especially the Germans and Italians who should be experienced enough to see through this game. Shame on you. BTW, the SAT is a lousy proxy for IQ. Just lousy. Obviously it can be gamed. OTOH, it takes a certainly level of sophistication for someone to use gaming techniques. Credit Asians for having that "critical mass" that sustains the test prep "industry". Hehe.
ReplyDeleteThe SAT dumbed down considerably what with eliminating analogies (high g loading, hard to study for) with vocab. Lower g loading, easier to study. On the math side, they got rid of thinky algebra and word problems and replaced them with fairly simple, rote trig problems. The test is much easier to game/study for now because ETS wanted it that way.
ReplyDeleteThe best data available put black IQ at 1.1 SD below the white men and Asian IQ at 0.2 SD above. Blacks perform about as well as IQ would indicate in America, but Asians seem to do much better. Latinos, for whatever reason, seem to underperform relative to their IQ.
ReplyDeleteIn Britain, blacks from the Carribean and Africa outperform their IQ. South Asians (Pakistani, Indian) outperform too.
Yes, blacks would benefit if they tried harder. Lower income whites, rednecks, guidos, Scotch Irish, and other ethnic groups from the left half of the white bell curve would benefit too. I don't know where people get this idea that every white American is college educated and makes their child do their homework every night. The gap would remain, but everyone would do better from harder work.
"Seems like the typical story of an AA hire - smart black guy, not as smart as people want to think he is, too lazy/greedy/incompetent to succeed in the usual way, people who should've stopped him just try to avoid seeing a train-wreck-in-progress (that part isn't out yet, but I'm sure we'll hear about it) - and then the crash."
ReplyDeleteFrom my own experience, there does not appear to be affirmative action directed toward visa nationals in any country...that would be H1B/F1 in the US and Tier 1/Tier 2 in the UK.
"It seems like white people are trying to explain the increased score compared to whites on studying.
ReplyDeleteBut couldn't black people make that same claim?"
I do understand the mentality you are talking about, but if Black people were gaining year on year, rather than staying static (and from a world historical perspective had countries which traded off with White and West Eurasian countries through history rather than being clearly unimpressive countries through all history), there would be more play given to the idea that their relative deficiency and Whites relative success is due to increasing effort and something cultural, rather than genes.
We claim the B-W gap, is genetic, within our population, rather than cultural, because of its consistency across adoption and across time. If the latter, at least, not to mention the former is not true for EA-Euro, then the case for that being a genetic gap is weaker.
Of course, even people who see the B-W do say there is *something* we can do about the B-W gap, inasmuch as we could "hit the White kids of the head with a ballpeen hammer" as Steve satirically modestly proposes.
http://preview.tinyurl.com/6x9dnv8
"Asian high-school students spend significantly more time studying and doing homework, Ramey found, than any other ethnic or racial group. Averaged over the entire year (including summer vacations), the average, non-Hispanic white student spends 5.5 hours per week studying and doing homework, while Hispanic and non-Hispanic black students spend even less. In contrast, the average Asian student spends a whopping 13 hours per week. Parents' educational levels do not explain the differences, Ramey said, as these become even greater if the sample is limited to children who have at least one parent with a college degree.
The average Asian high-school student does not fit every aspect of Chua's prescription for her daughters, Ramey discovered. In particular, the average Asian student spends no more time practicing and performing music, about the same amount of time watching TV, and more time playing on the computer. But Asians do spend less time on sports and socializing than any of the other ethnic groups. The biggest difference, though, is in time spent working at a job: White students spend 5.8 hours per week on average, and Asian students spend only 2.4 hours."
To me it does seem like there is a much stronger effort gap between Asians and everyone else there than a gap between Whites and Asians and everyone else.
Let's say we assume effective Asian "IQ" (on the SAT) is around 106, and they get 3 points of the advantage on Whites from study. Then let's scale that to the Black-White effort gap implied by the graph, which is about 3 times smaller than the White Asian one. Maybe Blacks could get a point, to bring them up to around 86-90, rather than 85-89, if they worked as hard as Whites? It's not gonna close any achievement gap...
(And maybe they could get closer if we discouraged the Whites kids to study or get educated, and boosted Black educational incentives - but then, that's a "ballpeen hammer" solution).
(Btw. Hopefully all the weird commentators who put up here and ask how iSteve commentators can claim that Asians both spend more time grinding at homework and on playing videogames will see that the two things are not incompatible...).
Also: "The numbers show that Asian mothers do spend more time in educational activities, such as reading to their children or helping with homework, Ramey said, but only by a half-hour per week more than white mothers. There is no difference in time spent on all child care activities between white and Asian mothers, though both groups devote more time than black and Hispanic mothers. These averages control for differences across groups in the number and age of children, education of the mother and marital status"
In contrast, the average Asian student spends a whopping 13 hours per week.
ReplyDeleteThat's a lot.
Historically, the stereotype of the East Asians (mainly referring to Chinese) was that they were industrious, thrifty, controlled in personality, and deferential to authority. They weren't perceived as being neccessarily any smarter, but still capable of outworking and outsaving white laborers.
ReplyDeleteIntellectuals like Lothrop Stoddard and Galton conceded that the "Asiatics" more economically efficient, but still maintained that whites were capable of outpacing them.
Jews, to pick another high achieving group, really were viewed as more clever and capable than white gentiles. Sometimes they were also viewed as underhanded and ruthless, but the general idea was that they could intellectually outmaneuver gentiles. Unlike the Chinese, who were viewed with disdain because they outworked everyone else.
When I read WSJ and other publications, sometimes I get the sense that Jews see the Chinese and other Asians as boring grinds who are playing unfair by working/parenting too hard.
"Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteI heard that in Asia, it's still common for college students to call older students 'big brother'. What a bunch of nimrods."
You heard wrong, nimrod. "Big brother" is just an amicable way for friends to address an older friend, whom they respect.
But what can I expect from an ignorant white supremacist who has never owned a passport or befriended anybody who is not white?
Oh, and one more thing: The term "big brother", or "Da Ge", does not have a negative connotation in Chinese the same way it has in English, since the "Big Brother" of 1984 as a cultural reference is an Anglophone one, not a Chinese one.
Asians will most certainly not take the place of Jews in making up the elite. Jews at least have the benefit of being white. I don't see a lot of angst over high Jewish achievement, at least relative to what I see about Asian achievement on this board. And whoever said that Asians don't face discrimination, I call bs. Compare the number of Asians with MBAs relative to their representation in the corporate boardrooms (oh, I'm sure it's because they aren't "creative". And of course, the fact that Asians applying to elite universities have to perform better relative to whites and other groups in order to get in. And for those who think I'm only picking on whites, overt discrimination towards Asians is much worse among blacks and hispanics, who resent the high-achieving ways of Asians and often respond with violence.
ReplyDeleteFortunately for me, my soon-to-be-born son will only be 1/4th Asian and will be more likely to pass as white than his 1/2 Asian father.
"Anonymous said...
ReplyDelete"The reason why asians, who have the highest IQ scores, have not made up the bulk of the "super rich alphas" of society is because of discrimination."
Oh BS. They sure aren't discriminated against in their home countries, so why aren't those countries setting the pace? "
Because until recently only Japan has the money and know-how to get anything done, as opposed to a whole array of western industrialized states. One country does not set anything.
And what does a high-IQ Chinese peasant being stuck on a farm have to do with whether Chinese Americans are getting discriminated against? You are comparing apples and oranges here.
Anonymous said...
ReplyDelete"Asians outperform IQ is nothing new. Even as far back as the 1950s, Asian-Americans were pulling ahead academically and economically. Now it's more obvious because there are more of them, but this is nothing new.
"Funny thing is that IQ tests from around that time found that AAs scored 0.1 standard deviation below the white mean. As Flynn would state, Asians didn't outperform whites because of higher IQ - they outperformed whites inspite of slightly lower IQs. "
So ... they consistently score higher on the IQ test, but they have "slightly lower IQs"? Great logic there, smart guy.
Anonymous said...
ReplyDelete"Historically, the stereotype of the East Asians (mainly referring to Chinese) was that they were industrious, thrifty, controlled in personality, and deferential to authority. They weren't perceived as being neccessarily any smarter, but still capable of outworking and outsaving white laborers."
The stereotype of the deferential Chinese might be true in China, where being "un-deferential" to authority could land you in a Gulag or worse, but not so much in America. Different countries play by different rules and thus produce different peoples. Hence a Chinese and a Chinese American are not necessarily synonymous.
"When I read WSJ and other publications, sometimes I get the sense that Jews see the Chinese and other Asians as boring grinds who are playing unfair by working/parenting too hard."
And Jews don't "grind"? Please. The Jews had the same stereotype of being grinds back in the day when the Ivys still kept them out. But now that they have taken over the Ivys, they are doing the same thing to Asians. How the things change, and how they stay the same.
For someone as nuanced as Steve, I can't believe he is still using the catchall "Asian" category as if it meant anything.
ReplyDeleteUnfortunately the SAT does not break down by specific country of origin but as those PSAT national merit scholar finalists there is a huge difference in country of origin affecting Asian scores.
The recently release California STAR 2011 assessment shows the same.
White scores
http://star.cde.ca.gov/star2011/ViewReport.aspx?ps=true&lstTestYear=2011&lstTestType=C&lstCounty=&lstDistrict=&lstSchool=&lstGroup=5&lstSubGroup=80
"Asian" scores
http://star.cde.ca.gov/star2011/ViewReport.aspx?ps=true&lstTestYear=2011&lstTestType=C&lstCounty=&lstDistrict=&lstSchool=&lstGroup=5&lstSubGroup=76
Chinese scores
http://star.cde.ca.gov/star2011/ViewReport.aspx?ps=true&lstTestYear=2011&lstTestType=C&lstCounty=&lstDistrict=&lstSchool=&lstGroup=5&lstSubGroup=129
What the Asians are to whites, the Chinese are to Asians.
"Because it is the distribution of IQ that produces superstars in a field. Whites have more geniuses and more idiots than asians.
ReplyDeleteE.G. ethnic german science behind the nazi war machine vs ethnic Japanese science behind their ww2 empire."
Whites have Jews, Japanese do not.
Comparing Japan and Germany in WWII isn't really fair since Germany had a headstart on industrialization and greater access with other advanced nations with which to trade goods and exchange ideas. Though Japan traded with the world by the 20th century, it was like the lone advanced(or advancing)nation in Asia.
But compare Japan with any European nation AFTER WWII. Japan came up with some astounding technology and innovations, more so than most European nations, including the UK. Among Europeans, only Germans and French have been comparable. But there were good number of Jews among the French geniuses.
Of course, America was by far the innovative force after WWII, but much of that owes to Jews.
"In contrast, the average Asian student spends a whopping 13 hours per week."
ReplyDeleteI'll bet much of its playing videogames on the internet while pretending to study.
Geniocracy.
ReplyDelete@Duke of Qin
ReplyDeletePerhaps the Chinese are the herrenvolk of the Orient. ;)
Jews may have been grinds back a long time ago, but these days they seem to let their kids do whatever they want. Trust me, I know plenty of Jews, and they aren't highly academic like Asians and Indians. However, unlike white gentiles, Jews are smart enough to coast into an Ivy League or other top notch school.
ReplyDeleteIf by "gamed", you meant "studied for it"
ReplyDeleteno I mean putting more effort into knowing the test than into knowing the material, a strategy that is more prevalent among some Asians for cultural reasons
"4380 extra hours poured into just studying for tests."
ReplyDeletepaging Mr. Gladwell.
----
"Last I checked, Japan was the most successful of the East Asian tigers, so I doubt they're any dimmer."
they went over the hump earlier?
"the average, non-Hispanic white student spends 5.5 hours per week studying and doing homework, while Hispanic and non-Hispanic black students spend even less. In contrast, the average Asian student spends a whopping 13 hours per week."
If they don't get all As after 13 hours of mugging, they deserve beatings.
"What the Asians are to whites, the Chinese are to Asians."
holy..
Comparing Japan and Germany in WWII isn't really fair since Germany had a headstart on industrialization and greater access with other advanced nations with which to trade goods and exchange ideas. Though Japan traded with the world by the 20th century, it was like the lone advanced(or advancing)nation in Asia.
ReplyDeleteWhy did Germany have a headstart on industrialization? Shouldn't the smarter, more industrious Japanese have figgered that shit out first? Why did Germany have more access to other industrial nations? Oh yeah, Germany was in Europe, while the only neighbors Japan had were there fellow high IQ, industrious Asians. Something doesn't quite work there, dog.
Bottom line of yellow supremacy seems to be that it's joined at the hip to the idea that we should open our countries to them.
ReplyDeleteThese things seem contradictory; why should yellow supremacists be entreating inferior whites to be allowed into white territories?
It's a real laugh to hear yellows whine about discrimination. Yellows don't need to discriminate to keep anything they have - they slam the door in everyone's faces before things get that far.
Svigor, what makes you think yellow supremacists are entreating whites to open their countries to them? I'm a "Han Chauvinist" in the Marxist parlance and I believe that there should be near Zero Chinese immigration to the West and vice versa.
ReplyDeleteWhat many Chinese-Americans do not realize, having not followed the logic of hyper reactionary (correct) thinking down the rabbit hole is that immigration to the West is collective long term self-genocide. Miscegenation rates are high while birth rates are low. Each succeeding generation becomes smaller and smaller. Even worse, the selection effects of assortative mating (higher female outmarriage) are pushing each succeeding generation to be more like the host culture at large.
The inevitable result will be demographic collapse followed by the extinction of our cultural and biological distinctiveness. Within several generations, all that remain of those who call themselves Chinese will be people like her.
http://www.lisasee.com/
Red headed white purveyors of vulgar chinoiserie.
Generations more and even that will be gone and all that will remain of the Han are some mitochondrial DNA markers.
Many Chinese may see this and may not care. Finding the immediate advantages of emigration to be beneficial to them and their immediate progeny. The problem they fail to see is that their descendants will inevitably be strangers.
As someone who wants my race and people to prosper and preserve, all I can say is that immigration to the West is the first step into a long slow gentle death.
Hopefully the coming Nakba of the West once the Neo bolshevist race replacement agenda reaches its inevitable tipping point (either the degeneration into turd worlddom or a white racial awakening) will remove the sheen on immigration to the West.
Very few of you have any experience with children.
ReplyDeleteTell an East Asian boy to sit there and do 20 worksheets, and he does 20 worksheets.
Tell a white boy the same thing, he'll pick his nose and make booger sculptures rather than give you the satisfaction.
So it is creativity, in a sense. White boys will come up with something to do other than what you want no matter how much you take away. Tiring them out physically and terrifying them with truly fearful consequences is the only reliable way to get them to do the level of academics Asians do just by being told to.
Svigor, what makes you think yellow supremacists are entreating whites to open their countries to them?
ReplyDeleteBecause most Yellow supremacy here is accompanied by entreaties to open White countries to Yellows. :)
I agree with your sentiments. It's good to see a YN for once. But I would add that the one-way gene flow you describe (sorta; not sure you've recognized it) accords with your EGI, and thwarts ours.
I believe the most likely answer is that the amount that Asians cheat more than others correlates to how much better their scores are.
ReplyDeleteAmericans think that this is a local phenomenon that Asians are scoring better than the rest. I suggest they have a closer look at the entrance exams results in Australia, Canada and New Zealand. The names of many of their top students are also unmistakably Asians.
ReplyDeleteWhat is the meaning of (+) and (-) in the table?
ReplyDeleteWhat is the meaning of (+) and (-) in the table?
ReplyDeleteIt should be noted that the racial classification on the SAT includes Indians and other South Asians in the Asian race. What significance this holds is hard to discern because this is a strange way to collect and report data about what are generally understood to be distinct races.
ReplyDelete