Here's a long, serious article from The Atlantic that, when read closely, self-destructs.
Several observations from reading the story:
- Middle class blacks in Tuscaloosa made a deal with whites to get their black children away from underclass blacks.
- The country is slowly running out of white children to use as buffers to absorb black dysfunction.
It focuses on three generations of the black Dent family in Tuscaloosa.
Resegregation in the American South
Sixty years after Brown v. Board of Education, the schools in Tuscaloosa, Alabama, show how separate and unequal education is coming back.
Nikole Hannah-Jones/ProPublic
Though James Dent could watch Central High School’s homecoming parade from the porch of his faded-white bungalow, it had been years since he’d bothered. But last fall, Dent’s oldest granddaughter, D’Leisha, was vying for homecoming queen, and he knew she’d be poking up through the sunroof of her mother’s car, hand cupped in a beauty-pageant wave, looking for him.
So, at about 4:30 in the afternoon on October 18, Dent, age 64, made his way off the porch and to the curb along Martin Luther King Jr. Boulevard in the West End of Tuscaloosa, Alabama.
Central was not just a renowned local high school. It was one of the South’s signature integration success stories. In 1979, a federal judge had ordered the merger of the city’s two largely segregated high schools into one. ...
But on that sunlit day last October, as Dent searched for Melissa’s daughter in the procession coming into view, he saw little to remind him of that era. More caravan than parade, Central’s homecoming pageant consisted of a wobbly group of about 30 band members, some marching children from the nearby elementary schools, and a dozen or so cars with handwritten signs attached to their sides. ...
The reason for the decline of Central’s homecoming parade is no secret. In 2000, another federal judge released Tuscaloosa City Schools from the court-ordered desegregation mandate that had governed it for a single generation. Central had successfully achieved integration, the district had argued—it could be trusted to manage that success going forward.
Freed from court oversight, Tuscaloosa’s schools have seemed to move backwards in time. The citywide integrated high school is gone, replaced by three smaller schools. Central retains the name of the old powerhouse, but nothing more. A struggling school serving the city’s poorest part of town, it is 99 percent black. D’Leisha, an honors student since middle school, has only marginal college prospects.
Is it all that awful for 90 IQ black students to get to grow up feeling superior to 80 IQ black classmates rather than feeling inferior to 100 IQ white classmates?
Tuscaloosa’s schools today are not as starkly segregated as they were in 1954, the year the Supreme Court declared an end to separate and unequal education in America. No all-white schools exist anymore—the city’s white students generally attend schools with significant numbers of black students. But while segregation as it is practiced today may be different than it was 60 years ago, it is no less pernicious: in Tuscaloosa and elsewhere, it involves the removal and isolation of poor black and Latino students, in particular, from everyone else.
I.e., from non-poor black students.
In Tuscaloosa today, nearly one in three black students attends a school that looks as if Brown v. Board of Education never happened.
Tuscaloosa’s school resegregation—among the most extensive in the country—is a story of city financial interests, secret meetings, and angry public votes. It is a story shaped by racial politics and a consuming fear of white flight. It was facilitated, to some extent, by the city’s black elites.
This is the real story that almost nobody has noticed in reading this long article: Tuscaloosa's black middle class leadership sold out its black underclass in return for its own interests.
... In recent years, a new term, apartheid schools—meaning schools whose white population is 1 percent or less, schools like Central—has entered the scholarly lexicon. While most of these schools are in the Northeast and Midwest, some 12 percent of black students in the South now attend such schools ....
In other words, the North was traditionally segregated spatially, while the South was segregated socially.
For example, as a Catholic school kid in the San Fernando Valley, which is isolated spatially by the Hollywood Hills, I noticed that Jewish kids at the park, who all went to public schools, looked down upon Catholic schools as alien and un-American But when busing from Watts into the San Fernando Valley was ordered in the late 1970s, local Jewish politicians led the fight against integration, and Jews started an impressive number of private schools.
In the fall of 1979, Central High School opened to serve all public-high-school students in the district—no matter their race, no matter whether they lived in the city’s public-housing projects or in one of the mansions along the meandering Black Warrior River. The mega-school, a creative solution to a complex problem, resulted from many hours of argument and negotiation in McFadden’s chambers. ...
Now 45 and a single mother of four, [Melissa Dent] works on the assembly line at the Mercedes-Benz plant just outside of town.
A few minutes before first period on a Wednesday last October, D’Leisha Dent, a 17-year-old senior, waded through Central High’s halls, toes with chipped blue polish peeking out from her sandals, orange jeans hugging solid legs that had helped make her the three-time state indoor shot-put champion.
She eventually broke free from a tangle of girls to enter Tyrone Jones’s Advanced Placement English class and take her seat at the front. She dropped two black bags taut with notebooks and binders beside her desk.
Jones didn’t waste time setting the boisterous class to task. The AP exam was approaching. Students who didn’t score high enough wouldn’t get college credit for the class. Even though the 17 girls and boys gathered in front of him made up Central’s brightest, their practice essay about a poem hadn’t gone so well.
D’Leisha raised her hand, her brow furrowed. How many kids had made the cutoff last year? she asked. Only two students had, but the teacher dodged the question. “I really do believe all of you can make those scores,” he said.
He passed out an essay question about D. H. Lawrence’s novel The Rainbow. As the students began to write, a girl sitting to his left scrunched up her nose and raised her hand. She couldn’t spell a word she wanted to use in her essay. Jones told her to look it up in one of the heavy red dictionaries in the baskets below their desks.
“You know what I don’t understand?” the girl said, a pen poised at her lips. “You always tell us to look up the word. How are we supposed to look a word up if we don’t know to spell it?”
Ouch.
... After Melissa Dent graduated, in 1988, Central continued as one of the state’s standout high schools. But over time, local leaders grew more concerned about the students who didn’t attend the school than those who did.
Running out of white kids ...
... White students once accounted for a majority of the Tuscaloosa school district’s students. But by the mid-1990s, they made up less than a third. Total enrollment had dropped from 13,500 in 1969 to 10,300 in 1995. Many white parents had decided to send their children to nearly all-white private schools or to move across the city line to access the heavily white Tuscaloosa County Schools.
Tuscaloosa’s business leaders and elected officials had witnessed the transformation of other southern cities after their school districts had reached a tipping point—the point at which white parents become unsettled by the rising share of black students in a school, and pull their children from the school en masse. School districts in cities such as Birmingham and Richmond had seen their integration efforts largely mooted: just about all the white students had left. ...
In some ways, all-black schools today are worse than Druid High was back in the 1950s, when poor black students mixed with affluent and middle-class ones.
The fundamental issue is that there is always a large black underclass that everybody treats as a hot potato. Controlling the boundaries of Appropriate Discourse is helpful in dumping this hot potato into somebody else's lap without them having a vocabulary for explaining what you are up to.
Tuscaloosa’s residential population stagnated during the ’90s, and the school situation took on special urgency in 1993: Tuscaloosa was vying for the Mercedes-Benz plant where Melissa Dent now works, which officials hoped would draw people to the city. Just a few years earlier, Tuscaloosa had lost out on a bid for a Saturn plant. In an interview early this year, Johnnie Aycock, who at the time headed the Chamber of Commerce of West Alabama, suggested the schools had scared Saturn away. “We learned that lesson. We learned that lesson completely.”
In other words, engineers and executives from Stuttgart aren't going to send their kids to majority black schools. And let's not even think about Hyundai executives ...
Publicly, the city’s movers and shakers said the lack of neighborhood schools made the district unattractive and that schools languished in disrepair because the district had to await court approval for every little decision. Behind closed doors, they argued that if they did not create some schools where white students made up the majority—or near it—they’d lose the white parents still remaining. ...
The roster of witnesses lined up behind the school board shocked many in the black community. It included some of the city’s most influential black leaders, including a city councilman, a state senator, and Judge John England Jr., whose credentials carried force. England had been a member of the first integrated class at the University of Alabama Law School, and he’d fought discrimination his whole career as a litigator, before taking on roles as a city-council member and then as a county judge.
England testified as to how the city’s racial views had changed over the years. Building a school “across the river,” England told the court, was “the best thing for the community as a whole.”
Rumors spread within the community that England’s and others’ support had been part of a secret arrangement with white leaders. Dennis Parker, an attorney for the NAACP Legal Defense Fund, asked England during his testimony whether he’d said at a public meeting that a deal had been struck to improve a West End school in exchange for support for a new school in the whitest part of town. ...
In an interview last fall in his chambers at the Tuscaloosa County Courthouse, Judge England said on the record for the first time that he had privately agreed to support the Rock Quarry [elementary] school during the trial—which would ultimately lead to the district’s release from federal oversight—only with the assurance of investment in West End schools, though he denied having made a quid pro quo deal. (Several others confirmed that white business, school, and city officials met privately with select black leaders to gain support for the district’s efforts to end the court order and free it to return to neighborhood schools, in exchange for new black schools and development in the West End.)
In other words, democracy: whites provided tax money to middle class blacks, and middle class blacks dumped poor blacks into their own high school.
What happened was rapid and continual resegregation, in particular the sequestration of poor black students in nearly hopeless schools.
Why are the schools hopeless? Because they are full of poor black students.
It is no small irony that efforts to woo the very plant that allows Melissa Dent to earn enough to support her family also played a part in ensuring that her children would attend nearly all-black schools.
In 1999, less than a year after Blackburn’s public hearing, the school board voted to abandon its three single-grade, citywide middle schools in favor of more-traditional middle schools.
So, under the old desegregation order, all the sixth graders in the city went to a single school devoted only to sixth grade. The next year they moved to a single school devoted only to seventh grade, and the same for eighth grade. And The Atlantic wonders why parents complained?
It carved out two integrated schools to serve sixth-through-eighth-graders in the northern, central, and eastern parts of the city, and returned Westlawn Middle, in the West End, to its familiar historic state: virtually all black.
The school board commissioned a biracial committee to figure out what to do about the high school. White parents, the commission suggested in its May 2000 report, would not want their children to attend schools once they turned 70 percent black. By its reasoning, the district had already reached the tipping point. The only way to create the necessary school ratios in a district where black students outnumbered white students almost three to one
You know, that is kind of a problem ...
was to cluster a large number of black children in schools without white students. ...
After the commission issued its report, the district created a plan for two large integrated high schools—Northridge, in the whitest and most affluent part of town, and Paul W. Bryant, along the city’s eastern edge—as well as a much smaller high school that would retain the name Central. School officials drew Central’s proposed attendance zone compactly around the West End, saying that an all-black high school couldn’t be avoided, because the district couldn’t help where people lived.
Today, Northridge HS "in the whitest and most affluent part of town" is 61% black and 35% white. Paul W. Bryant HS is 75% black and 19% white. Central H.S. is 100% black.
... Nonetheless, in August 2000, the seven-member board ordered Central’s dismantling, 21 years after its creation. One black member joined the board’s four white ones in voting in favor.
And so the district built its new high schools—but white parents did not flock to them. By 2007, white enrollment had fallen to 22 percent
Running out of white children ...
But some parents were unhappy with the plan for a different set of reasons. The historic district around the University of Alabama, a predominantly white and middle-class area that’s home to college professors and other professionals, lies south of the river. The district’s plan would reassign children in this neighborhood to their closest schools, which were heavily black.
College professors, no matter what they might say in the lecture hall, don't want their kids being sent to highly black schools.
The day before the school board voted, the president of the historic district association sent an e‑mail to his fellow association members assuring them that after “lengthy negotiations with the school board attorney” and “discussions with school board members and the superintendent,” students in the district would be able to continue to attend the north-of-the-river schools....
A 2012 Stanford study examined school districts with at least 2,000 students that had been released from court order since 1990, finding that, typically, these districts grew steadily more segregated after their release.
As opposed to other schools? From 1990 to 2012, the whole country has been running out of white children to buffer minority dysfunction.
... Indeed, in some ways all-black schools today are worse than Druid High was back in the 1950s, when poor black students mixed with affluent and middle-class ones, and when many of the most talented black residents of Tuscaloosa taught there.
Feature, not a bug, to middle class black leaders -- they're rescued their kids from the black underclass.
D’Leisha Dent has retaken the ACT three times to try to raise her score. At a practice session with students from other high schools, she observed, “They knew things we didn’t know. They had done things we hadn’t done.”...
Though its students may arrive bearing more burdens, in many ways Central is like any other high school. It’s got its jocks, its nerds, its mean girls and band geeks. D’Leisha herself is the all-American girl—the homecoming queen dating a football player. ... The school is housed in a lovely modern brick building outside of the West End, within view of the towering University of Alabama football stadium. ...
Standing one day last fall outside the counselor’s office at Central, D’Leisha looked up at the college bulletin board. It was dominated by National Guard and Army flyers, with some brochures for small Alabama colleges tucked among them. Students with D’Leisha’s grades and tough honors coursework often come home to mailboxes stuffed with glossy college brochures. But most days, nothing showed up in the mail for her, and no colleges had come calling. She had taken the ACT college-entrance exam twice already. The first time she scored a 16
21st percentile among ACT takers. Of course a lot of students who have already dropped out or who know they aren't college material don't take the ACT or SAT. For whatever it's worth, here is somebody's ACT / AFQT (military entrance test) concordance, which puts 16 on the ACT at equivalent to scoring at about the 45th percentile among all young people. The black average on the ACT is 17.0 (28th percentile), while the white average is 22.4 (65th percentile).
, the second time a 17
28th percentile among ACT test takers.
Her mother’s alma mater, the University of Alabama, expects a 21
55th percentile.
, the national average. Many four-year colleges will not even consider students who score below an 18.
34th percentile
“My biggest fear right now is the ACT,” D’Leisha said. “I don’t have a good score. It’s been on my mind a lot.” She described an ACT study session she’d attended last summer at a community college. “We were with kids from Northridge, and they knew things we didn’t know,” she said. “They had done things we hadn’t done.”
Because D’Leisha excels in school and everything else she’s involved in, her teachers and counselors don’t worry about whether she’s on the right track. They’re stretched thin trying to keep in class the seniors—roughly 35 percent of them—who fail to graduate each year. But in December, at home texting with her boyfriend, D’Leisha admitted that she’d filled out only one college application. Lately, she said, she’d been looking more closely at those military brochures, just as her grandfather had, something that angers her mother. “I am kind of clueless how to get stuff done for college,” D’Leisha told me, looking down and fidgeting with her phone. “They are supposed to be helping us, but they think because I am the class president I know what to do. Sometimes I don’t speak up, because I know people have expectations of me.”
For black students like D’Leisha—the grandchildren of the historic Brown decision—having to play catch-up with their white counterparts is supposed to be a thing of the past. The promise was that students of all colors would be educated side by side, and would advance together into a more integrated, equitable American society. Polls show Americans embracing this promise in the abstract, but that rarely translates into on-the-ground support for integration efforts.
Late last year, D’Leisha took the ACT for the third time, but her score dropped back to 16.
21st percentile
So early on a Saturday in February, she got up quietly, forced a few bites of a muffin into her nervous stomach, and drove once again to the community college where the test is administered. A few weeks later, she got her score: 16 again.
21st percentile.
She contemplated a fifth attempt, but could see little point.
Is it really all that terrible that a nice girl like D'Leisha got to enjoy four years of being a big fish -- class president, honor student, homecoming queen -- in a small pond? I suspect that this situation seems far more tragic to the Atlantic writer than it does to D'Leisha, who will likely wind up getting a job, like her mother, at the big Mercedes-Benz factory outside of Tuscaloosa.
Half the people in the country are going to be below average in general intelligence. Traditionally, working at an auto plant was seen as a working class Good Job.
I think public policy (e.g., the Reagan Administration's quotas on imported cars) is more likely to influence whether or not there are car factories for people with below average IQs to work at than whether or not there are people with below average IQs.
Half the people in the country are going to be below average in general intelligence. Traditionally, working at an auto plant was seen as a working class Good Job.
I think public policy (e.g., the Reagan Administration's quotas on imported cars) is more likely to influence whether or not there are car factories for people with below average IQs to work at than whether or not there are people with below average IQs.
Leftists failed with redistribution of wealth, but they figured redistribution of people would work just fine.
ReplyDeleteThat was a good piece even if the author has an agenda.
ReplyDeleteWhat's scary is D’Leisha is one of the top students at her school. What does the future hold for the masses at Central?
Is it really all that terrible that a nice girl like D'Leisha got to enjoy four years of being a big fish -- class president, honor student, homecoming queen -- in a small pond?
ReplyDeleteDoesn't Tuskegee take girls like her?
Parents take their kids out of schools that are 70% black? I'd imagine most take their kids out well before that. I'd probably do it at 20%.
ReplyDeleteIt sounds like Tuscaloosa has run out of white kids, but they still exist, they just live in the surrounding communities instead.
Ahhh shucks, they just ain't looking hard enough for white kids. High IQ Chicago Mayor Rahm Emanuel has no problem finding'em.
ReplyDeleteDubuque agrees to correct discriminatory housing policies
"HUD said that discriminates against black people moving from places such as Chicago or Milwaukee." (Civil rights now mean the right to live somewhere you cannot afford to live in)
http://www.kwwl.com/story/25257161/2014/04/15/dubuque-agrees-to-correct-discriminatory-housing-policies
One observation about Section 8 in the New York City area, bringing poor people from random areas and concentrating them in a new area causes problems due to gang affiliations. People who were warring with each other across town in Brooklyn and Philly, now live in the same housing project in some podunk that never had those problems before so the police are very ill equipped and not staffed correctly for the their new charges. If they are going to relocate Chicago Blacks to somewhere, it should be very far away from Chicago so as to break all connections. Dubuque is not far enough from Chicago.
Wilkes Barre Pa has had a plague of Brooklyn NY related crime due to a Section 8 project in Wilkes Barre housing people with family and 'friends' still living in Brooklyn NY (my home town) who show up invited or uninvited in Wilkes Barre.
>>Steve Sailer wrote and observed:
ReplyDelete"""""- Middle class blacks in Tuscaloosa made a deal with whites to get their black children away from underclass blacks.""""""
Or else they'd sick the underclass on the rest of the whites. Steve, with some of these observations it sounds as if you're anticipating Nicholas Wade's new book due out May 6.
"""""- The country is slowly running out of white children to use as buffers to absorb black dysfunction."""""""
A different variation on this theme could be that the country is slowly running out of black middle class children, or what used to be commonly known as the 'talented tenth'.
Remember, the out of wedlock rate among ALL blacks hovers around 80% in 2014. If things are not done to stop this rise by 2024, the out of wedlock number will hover around 90%.
One noticeable trait of these middle class blacks in this story is that several of them actually had/have two parents, married and all.
Seriously, are there REALLY all that many in total numbers? I'd venture to say that on a national basis, there are more Jewish children who score waaaay above nearly all of the talented tenth do on SAT, GPA, and all relevant tests that measure IQ.
In other words, IF contrary to their usual 85 IQ counterparts, the talented tenth of blacks' IQ mean is about 107 and Jews median IQ STARTS at 110 IQ, well,.....which number ends up being higher in about...99% of the time.
""""Resegregation in the American South
Sixty years after Brown v. Board of Education, the schools in Tuscaloosa, Alabama, show how separate and unequal education is coming back.""""
Ok, 60 yrs since Brown v Board Decision and they STILL can't let things go. There must always be the trope 'But we still have more work to be done because racism is just as bad now as it was back then.' Trotsky would be proud of these useful idiots pushing his theme of perpetual revolution.
Central was not just a renowned local high school. It was one of the South’s signature integration success stories. In 1979, a federal judge had ordered the merger of the city’s two largely segregated high schools into one. ...
But on that sunlit day last October, as Dent searched for Melissa’s daughter in the procession coming into view, he saw little to remind him of that era.
More caravan than parade, Central’s homecoming pageant consisted of a wobbly group of about 30 band members, some marching children from the nearby elementary schools, and a dozen or so cars with handwritten signs attached to their sides. ...
The reason for the decline of Central’s homecoming parade is no secret.
In 2000, another federal judge released Tuscaloosa City Schools from the court-ordered desegregation mandate that had governed it for a single generation.
Interesting, a federal judge actually reading and abiding by the intent of the Constitution and forced desegregation, technically, would be vs the 1st Amendment Clause of freedom of association and therefore UNconstitutional.
>>Steve Sailer noted and observed (cont'd):
ReplyDelete""""""D’Leisha, an honors student since middle school, has only marginal college prospects."""""
Rachel Jeantel, is also an honors student as she informed everyone on Piers Morgan's show. Maybe they both can apply to the same college.
"""""This is the real story that almost nobody has noticed in reading this long article: Tuscaloosa's black middle class leadership sold out its black underclass in return for its own interests.""""""
Again, in terms of real numbers, HOW MANY actually are there of the talented tenth? Again, that doesnt mean that its actually 10% of the total number of blacks that have an IQ above 100 at all. The number could be closer to 5-6.5%.
Wonder what kind of school Michelle Obama attended during her HS yrs? A white school, an all urban Rachel Jeantel style school, or a school designed for talented tenth types such as herself?
Or are we allowed to notice enough to ask that question? Come to think of it, how come it didn't occur to the Atantlic writer interview Michelle Obama for her input on this story "Ms First Lady, do you think that racism still exists in public schools throughout America, even post Brown vs Board of Education?" Wonder what she'd have to say about that?
""""""“You know what I don’t understand?” the girl said, a pen poised at her lips. “You always tell us to look up the word. How are we supposed to look a word up if we don’t know to spell it?”
Ouch."""""""""
Paging Jason Richwine!
Another zinger is, by HS, if they DONT know how to spell a word, isn't that....actually.........ON THEM? Shouldn't they have oh...cared enough to actually bothered to find out HOW to spell, read, write, do math, science, etc. by that point in time?
Yes, no?
They gots no kick coming.
Yessir, perhaps De'lisha could get together with Rachel Jeantel and apply to the same school.
Welcome to post Brown vs Board 60yrs later, where nothing has changed and racism exists everywhere and soon Al and Jesse are gonna throw a huge hissy hissy fit that things have got to change right now! Or else!
But it does appear as if you're preparing to review Nicholas Wades new book. Derbyshire's review made mention that IQ tends to figure prominently in it.
"White parents, the commission suggested in its May 2000 report, would not want their children to attend schools once they turned 70 percent black."
ReplyDeleteThis is absurd. I'm sure white parents who can control it aren't comfortable sending their kids to schools that are much more than 20% black.
I'm currently searching for jobs throughout the country: my family's percentage breakpoint is around 15% (and preferably 10% or less). We can afford to be choosy.
anon
Resegregation is happening everywhere. The hypocrisy of middle class whites is beyond belief.
ReplyDeleteNew Zealanders like to pretend they are tough, rural types - the quintessential Kiwi bloke. People like that do exist. They are about ten percent of the population. You have to be tough to live in Murchison or Twizel. My wife's family are the toughest people I've ever met, because they spend their lives herding sheep.
But most of the population now live in three urban centres, Greater Auckland, Greater Christchurch and Greater Wellington. Each one of these centres is now surrounded by a huge belt of what are euphemistically called "lifestyle blocks". These are ten acres areas of land that are just big enough to be counted as farms and so escape the urban zoning laws. There, white parents can have a couple of pet sheep and an alpaca and call themselves farmers while sending their children to schools that are 99 percent white.
Nobody in their right mind would own a lifestyle block for any other reason. They also swallow a huge amount of prime agricultural land in a country that depends on agricultural exports. They are not rural, just inconvenient and you spend a huge amount of time driving if you live in one. I used to own one and my bodyweight promptly shot up by 20kg. I then moved to Costa Rica and lost it all again in five months.
Many urban professionals have noticed this and so are moving back to areas near to the city centre when the regentrification process has been begun by the gay community.
Sociology is not physics and hard-and-fast laws are hard to pin down, but white middle class hypocrisy seems to apply across the whole Western World.
This is kind of close the Thurgood Marshall's suggestion at oral argument in Brown v Board of Education. “Put the dumb colored children in with the dumb white children,” Thurgood Marshall had said to the Supreme Court in 1955, “and put the smart colored children with the smart white children.”
ReplyDeleteThe hot new liberal Trayvonathon du jour is going to be the small number of high school students in Topeka trying to disinvite FLOTUS. I think all MSNBC assistant producers can now take April off.
ReplyDeleteI don't know, Sailer, maybe you should ask her yourself.
ReplyDelete"The country is slowly running out of white children to use as buffers to absorb black dysfunction."
ReplyDeleteMaybe that realization can lead to the rallying cry for sub 2.1 TFR SWPLs to start having more children.
"You need to have more children so they can uplift their disadvantaged black and brown brothers and sisters! Do it for the (NAM) children!"
Because school desegregation was largely forced on communities by an elite that seems to have considered itself morally superior, despite perhaps not knowing as much as they should have known, it's relevant that the BBC today lists the Most Popular in the News item as "Study: US is an oligarchy, not a democracy".
ReplyDeleteThe paper on which this story is based is online, "Testing Theories of American Politics: Elites, Interest Groups, and Average Citizens", Martin Gilens and Benjamin I. Page, forthcoming, Fall 2014 Perspectives on Politics. From the abstract:
"Each of four theoretical traditions in the study of American politics – which can be characterized as theories of Majoritarian Electoral Democracy, Economic Elite Domination, and two types of interest group pluralism, Majoritarian Pluralism and Biased Pluralism – offers different predictions... until recently it has not been possible to test these contrasting theoretical predictions against each other within a single statistical model. This paper reports on an effort to do so, using a unique data set that includes measures of the key variables for 1,779 policy issues. Multivariate analysis indicates that economic elites and organized groups representing business interests have substantial independent impacts on U.S. government policy, while average citizens and mass-based interest groups have little or no independent influence. The results provide substantial support for theories of Economic Elite Domination..."
From the paper:
" ...By directly pitting the predictions of ideal-type theories against each other within a single statistical model we have been able to produce some striking findings. One is the nearly total failure of “median voter” and other Majoritarian Electoral Democracy theories. When the preferences of economic elites and the stands of organized interest groups are controlled for, the preferences of the average American appear to have only a minuscule, near-zero, statistically non-significant impact upon public policy.
...Nor do organized interest groups substitute for direct citizen influence...
...the most influential, business oriented groups are negatively related to the average citizen’s wishes.
...What do our findings say about democracy in America? They certainly constitute troubling news for advocates of “populistic” democracy...
...the superior wisdom of economic elites or organized interest groups should not simply be assumed. It should be put to empirical test.
...majorities of the American public actually have little influence over the policies our government adopts."
No surprise, professors, to those who pay attention to their lying eyes, but thanks for the detailed analysis.
ReplyDeleteJames (Grandfather), Melissa (Mother), D’Leisha (Daughter): Interesting nomenclatural progression (regression?). The grandfather bears a sound, Biblical name. The daughter bears a trendy, but serviceable name. At the very least, it will not mark her as a member of the Black underclass. Then the daughter gets a name that is pure ghetto-Black.Paging Dr Steven Levitt...
As Larry Auster said "Physically powerful, mentally deficient, morally depraved. "
ReplyDeleteAnd as Steve said recently, to paraphrase, "You don't want to grow up in areas that produce Division 1 cornerbacks. "
LOL.
In case anyone missed it, the Paul W. Bryant that the high school is named for is indeed the football coach "Bear" Bryant.
ReplyDeleteLet me see if I have this right. D'Leisha, we are repeatedly told, is an honors student. Despite this fact, her ACT score (after several attempts) is a 16. And people wonder why university administrators don't trust High School GPAs....
ReplyDelete"During the 1970s and ’80s, the achievement gap between black and white 13-year-olds was cut roughly in half nationwide."
ReplyDeleteI'd be interested in what numbers they're looking at here.
--Discordiax
It's rather odd. The article is trying to paint D'Leisha's failure to attend university as some kind of betrayal of the American Dream. But this notion flies in the face of the fact that she is, to put it delicately, marginal university material at best. Sure, she might be able to squeak through a bogus major at a third tier uni, but what would be the point?
ReplyDeleteThat her name is"D'Leisha" tells us everything. The rest is just commentary.
ReplyDelete"Even though the 17 girls and boys gathered in front of him made up Central’s brightest, their practice essay about a poem hadn’t gone so well. [....] As the students began to write, a girl sitting to his left scrunched up her nose and raised her hand. She couldn’t spell a word she wanted to use in her essay. Jones told her to look it up in one of the heavy red dictionaries in the baskets below their desks.
ReplyDelete“You know what I don’t understand?” the girl said, a pen poised at her lips. “You always tell us to look up the word. How are we supposed to look a word up if we don’t know to spell it?”
"Ouch."
Understatement of the year, Steve. These 17 kids are, we are told, "Central's brightest," yet one of them does not know how to look up words in a dictionary....
I hope Steve won't pass in silence over The Atlantic's piece on college debating tournaments.
ReplyDelete--"The Rainbow" is a very odd high school reading assignment, btw. For any group of students.
She better enlist fast before Boehner & Reid open up the US military to all the DREAMERS.
ReplyDelete"Here's a long, serious article from The Atlantic that, when read closely, self-destructs."
ReplyDeleteAn apt description. I read this a few days ago with some interest. Ta-Nehisis Coates had recommended it on his blog, so I was curious to see what it had to say. When D'Leisha was introduced as an honors student, I assumed that we were going to be treated to a tale of wasted potential. Here is this fabulous girl, a potential doctor or lawyer, who has had her dreams thwarted....Then I learned that her ACT score was 16. Instead of being angry over social injustice, I'm now enraged over a High School system that allows someone this mediocre to be an honors student.
James (Grandfather), Melissa (Mother), D’Leisha (Daughter): Interesting nomenclatural progression (regression?). The grandfather bears a sound, Biblical name. The daughter bears a trendy, but serviceable name. At the very least, it will not mark her as a member of the Black underclass. Then the daughter gets a name that is pure ghetto-Black.Paging Dr Steven Levitt...
ReplyDeleteRegression is more accurate and it's scary. The grandfather was raised by a domestic and an unemployed laborer. He appears to have finished high school, entered the service and stitched together a living as a laborer. His daughter is bright enough to at least get into the University of Alabama. This should have been a ticket into the middle class. Yet with all of her learning she is a single mother of 4 and saddled her daughter with the name D'Leisha. She is the weak link in this family saga her family should be firmly middle class by now. The mother should be a shamed of herself.
The Dream School for white liberals is increasingly something like the University of Chicago Lab School, the place where Rahm Emanuel sends his kids. Barely majority white, with sizable Asian and multiracial contingents and a fair amount of middle-class black children. Professors send their kids there while assigning Jonathan Kozol books about the return of apartheid schooling in America. Of course, they are contributing to the problem themselves, but the superficially diverse student body is an awfully nice salve for the conscience.
ReplyDeletePoint of order
ReplyDeleteIn the Deep South, "neighborhood" schools is not understood as a euphemism/dog whistle for de facto racial segregation, like it is outside the Deep South. That's because in the Deep South, residential patterns weren't segregated (de facto or de jure) at all, even during the height of de jure Jim Crow.
This is why Brown v Board in 1954 (the 60th anniversary is next month) had an immediate impact in the Deep South, and resistance immediately sprung up there, but had no real effect outside the Deep South. To have segregated schools in the Deep South, you needed to have de jure segregation. But outside the Deep South, neighborhoods were self-segregated such that even if de jure segregation was not an option, the schools would be de facto segregated.
It would not be until a few decades later that the Federal courts got screwier and screwier in concocting intra-district and in some cases inter-district forced busing, and some other rulings and mechanism, to apply the spirit of desegregation to places outside the Deep South. Then and there, whites started to organize against it.
Now, the favored method in deseg seems to be allowing students in "unaccredited" (dog whistle: black) school district being allowed to transfer out to other districts (dog whistle: white).
"Feature, not a bug, to middle class black leaders -- they're rescued their kids from the black underclass."
ReplyDeleteVery true, Steve. Something that White elites typically fail to grasp is the fear that middle class/affluent Blacks have of ghetto culture ensnaring their children.Of course, this fear is often coded. For example, "Skip" Gates used to like to talk about the importance of keeping his daughters in an environment filled with Black intellectuals. That such an environment would also be rather lacking in poor Blacks simply went unstated. Curiously. Ta-Nehisi Coates has been more blunt.He has tried to explain away the low IQs of affluent Blacks (relative to Whites) as being a product of elite Blacks being insufficiently insulated from poor Blacks.
"""Is it really all that terrible that a nice girl like D'Leisha got to enjoy four years of being a big fish -- class president, honor student, homecoming queen -- in a small pond?
ReplyDeleteDoesn't Tuskegee take girls like her?""""
Come on, now, Tuskegee doesn't do those kind of experiments anymore, we all know that program ended yrs ago!
""""""The country is slowly running out of white children to use as buffers to absorb black dysfunction."""""""""
A variation on this theme: The country is slowly running out of a black middle class to serve as the historical 'talented tenth'.
Per Charles Murray's research from his previous book, it's a fairly established truism that solidly stable middle class families tend to have fairly high rates of marriage, also commonly known as two parent families.
As the out of wedlock birthrate for blacks continues to increase with each passing decade (and it continues to do so) then the black middle class will also continue to shrink. What you'll have left is a 'talented 2 percent, perhaps another 3-4 percent of 'urban creatives' (e.g. rap/hip hopsters; NFL/NBA stars) That leaves roughly about 94-95% who are....Rachel Jeantel or Trayvon Martin or Lashanqueetrius Demarkshantwa Johnson. The black underclass or undertow will greatly outnumber the black middle class at even higher levels than it does so at present time.
As it stands in 2014, the out of wedlock birthrate for blacks hovers around 80%. If this rate continues unchecked, in ten years time it will hover around 90% of ALL TOTAL blacks born out of wedlock, thereby reducing the total number of blacks who are part of the middle class.
What often goes unwritten in articles about the shrinking middle class per the likes of Paul Krugman, etc is that if the white middle class is shrinking, what about the black middle class? Or do they believe that Affirmative Action and other federal programs can prop up the talented tenth, fifth, and fourth for indefinitely and never any adverse consequences besides?
The Atlantic article is a familiar one and could've easily been penned (and most likely probably was) 20, 30, and even 40 yrs ago for each anniversary of Brown v Board decision. The main theme is the same: While some progress has been made, the enlightened whites must be ever vigilant and onguard vs any creeping racism that may attempt to rear its ugly head again, especially in the classrooms across the US.
However, in 2014, it is getting old and outdated to claim things that simply are not the direct result of racism any longer, especially with Barack Obama in the White House.
The country is slowly running out of white children to use as buffers to absorb black dysfunction.
The country is slowly running out of white children to use as buffers to absorb black dysfunction.
ReplyDelete^White children have never been used as "buffers." Below it is asserted, and indeed the article shows that "white flight" has been a long-standing thing since the 1960s. White people have not been keeping their kids near blacks (or vice versa) as as any kind of "buffer."
This is the real story that almost nobody has noticed in reading this long article: Tuscaloosa's black middle class leadership sold out its black underclass in return for its own interests.
They haven't "sold out" anything. Class interests have always played a significant hand in desegregation. The first wave of people to move out when desegregation came was the better off African-Americans. This is old news- and has always been a point of ambivalence about desegregation since the 1960s. Those best positioned to take advantage of America finally living up to its promises of equal treatment for all citizens did so- just as the "late curtain" Irish were better positioned to take advantage of newer opportunities in the burgeoning US economy. This is not "selling out" but the normal process of socio-economic growth within groups.
In other words, the North was traditionally segregated spatially, while the South was segregated socially.
Actually the South segregated spatially as well, not merely socially. Their spatial arrangements were not as SHARPLY DEFINED and DISTANCED as in the north, primarily because blacks were later migrants to the urban north. But spatial segregation within those shorter distances was even more rigid in the north. A black kid might still have to walk pass a white school 2 miles distant to go to the "colored" on 5 miles distant.
School districts in cities such as Birmingham and Richmond had seen their integration efforts largely mooted: just about all the white students had left.
Sure, no surprise there. This pattern has been around since the late 1960s and early 1970s. In the early days of desegregation whites formed numerous private schools, and did numerous gerrymandering maneuvers and manipulation to blockade or minimize integration. Sometimes they failed- but most times they succeeded. The article itself shows that.
The fundamental issue is that there is always a large black underclass that everybody treats as a hot potato. Controlling the boundaries of Appropriate Discourse is helpful in dumping this hot potato into somebody else's lap without them having a vocabulary for explaining what you are up to.
Everybody knew/knows that race is the name of the game. Hence from the 1960s and even earlier with Brown v Board, whites formed private schools, gerrymandered school districts and used a variety of other techniques to blockade or minimize the "hot potato." None of that is any secret. The Saturn plant, the shifting boundaries, etc etc... and the lineup of whites as the article explicitly notes demonstrates that everyone knoe what was up with what and why race is/was the central elephant in the living room.
(Several others confirmed that white business, school, and city officials met privately with select black leaders to gain support for the district’s efforts to end the court order and free it to return to neighborhood schools, in exchange for new black schools and development in the West End.)
Hardly earth-shattering stuff. In fact whites benefited mostly from the deal. They got to minimize integration EVEN MORE - and were out from under the court order. In return, they built some new schools, which they would have had to do ANYWAY as black enrollments increased. All they did was reshuffle who would be going to the new schools- which were on tap anyway. And with the blacks out of the way, new industry like the Saturn type industries could be more attractively lured to the area. Sounds like a good deal for white people. They didn't do blacks any favors- they benefited themselves.
As Larry Auster said "Physically powerful, mentally deficient, morally depraved. "
ReplyDelete------------------------
Agreed... mentally deficient, morally depraved, horrendously violent and congenitally hypocritical pretty much describes white people.
"Freed from court oversight, Tuscaloosa’s schools have seemed to move backwards in time. The citywide integrated high school is gone, replaced by three smaller schools. Central retains the name of the old powerhouse, but nothing more. A struggling school serving the city’s poorest part of town, it is 99 percent black. D’Leisha, an honors student since middle school, has only marginal college prospects. " - wonder who the important person who's kids go to the white school is.
ReplyDeleteIntegration's "success" was built on catching white parents unaware of what was happening. people had children and families secure in the idea that they had a neighborhood and school of their own, until the rug dropped out from under them. Now people just don't have families in that situation. On the other side of the equation the black population has doubled over that same time frame.
"Is it really all that terrible that a nice girl like D'Leisha got to enjoy four years of being a big fish -- class president, honor student, homecoming queen -- in a small pond?" - big fish regress to mean.
A lot of the white pullout of schools in mid-size southern towns occurred around 1990 when Chicago-based gangs spread to these places.
ReplyDelete...the whole country has been running out of white children to buffer minority dysfunction.
ReplyDeleteAnd there you have a decent description of our society reaching the limits of its carrying capacity. The Great Society programs were passed in '64 and '65 when whites made up about 87% of the population. Despite those policies being flawed, the enormous carrying capacity of an 87% European population covered up many of the costs. However, coupled with the growing effects of the 1965 immigration act, our society's carrying capacity has been degraded to the point that the Great Society polices are now becoming too costly and can no longer be papered over. The future is not looking good.
No surprise, professors, to those who pay attention to their lying eyes, but thanks for the detailed analysis.
ReplyDeleteNot sure why you posted that here, but it looks interesting.
A few other things:
ReplyDelete1. The article boasts that after the integration order, Central was a powerhouse HS that won both academic and athletic honors. Well duh, for a few years, while the school had enough blacks and whites, it had enough whites to win the academic honors and enough blacks to win the athletic honors.
2. "Running out of white kids" -- Esp. in the Deep South, it doesn't mean the white kids aren't there, it's that they're somewhere else, usually private schools or home schooled.
3. White kids serving as a buffer to mask black failure -- Isn't that what Hispanics are for these days?
4. Personally, I think the whole integrationist-civil rights movement was mostly a project of the "talented tenth" elite blacks that wanted to displace white people as the rulers of the blue gums. You'll notice that when blacks rule blacks, they slowly but surely salami slice their way back to the Jim Crow system one law at a time, but under a different rubric and without calling it Jim Crow. It's a matter of blue gums getting the government they deserve.
"It's rather odd. The article is trying to paint D'Leisha's failure to attend university as some kind of betrayal of the American Dream. But this notion flies in the face of the fact that she is, to put it delicately, marginal university material at best. Sure, she might be able to squeak through a bogus major at a third tier uni, but what would be the point?"
ReplyDeleteThe failure is that university degrees have increasingly become the de rigeur standard for any worker that doesn't want to earn minimum wages. This is largely the result of the political power of the universities themselves.
D'Leisha probably doesn't have the brainpower to learn Algebra II or critically analyze Shakespeare. But why should she? There's plenty of jobs that need done that shouldn't need it. By the article's account she's friendly, personable, focused, decently intelligent and willing to put in good effort. She'd probably make a more than fine restaurant manager or elementary school teacher.
But these and many other jobs require higher education degrees. Degrees that were originally designed for 85th percentile to develop highly-cognitive loaded knowledge and skills. But because of a societal wide push for college as the be-all and end-all we now expect D'Leisha to go to a university, pass an arbitrary IQ threshold and learn some completely irrelevant material. All things unnecessary 50 years ago, recognizing some people as naturally more intellectually gifted, were willing to create different tracks for different people.
To top it all off, the deal with the devil the black middle class made will inevitably destroy them if it has not already essentially done so. either outmarriage, or as whiskey would put it: hate hate hatred of black betas will do in any such notions of a black middle class continuing to exist.
ReplyDelete“You know what I don’t understand?” the girl said, a pen poised at her lips. “You always tell us to look up the word. How are we supposed to look a word up if we don’t know to spell it?”
ReplyDeleteI'll give her that. I asked my teachers the same thing, and never did get a satisfactory answer. I still don't use dictionaries for looking up spelling, and am not sure I could if I really didn't know how a word was spelled.
But I asked my third and fourth grade teachers, not my 12th grade teachers. By fifth grade, I knew how to spell most words in English.
"Is it all that awful for 90 IQ black students to get to grow up feeling superior to 80 IQ black classmates rather than feeling inferior to 100 IQ white classmates?"
ReplyDeleteIQ scores is NOT the measure of an individual. IQ scores only serve as an arbitrary decision maker among racialists, white and black, as a "definitive marker" of inferiority.
1 Corinthians 4:7
For who sees anything different in you? What do you have that you did not receive? If then you received it, why do you boast as if you did not receive it?
A test, like a yardstick, is only ONE form of measurement. If you use a yardstick alone, the information is completely one-dimensional. Racialists, black and white, thrive on this concept--this method in their eyes never oversteps it’s boundaries as an indicator and it's always used as proof of a verdict regarding worth.
In parts of Northern Virginia, white and Asian parents panick when their local schools start reaching 10-15% Hispanics, let alone blacks!
ReplyDelete70% black? Why, that's like DC and not the good part.
Of course, SOME white parents here start panicking when their local schools start reaching 20-30% Asian, but that's for another reason ("too competitive").
There's always home schooling.
In Northern VA, though, there is also a large number of Asian home schoolers -- probably the greatest concentration of Asian home schoolers in the country; they're usually evangelical Protestants or traditional Catholics and behave much like white evangelicals or white "Old" Catholics, including in voting patterns.
The black middle class in the US (and UK for that matter) is very much an artificial construct. In 99% perfect of the cases it's built upon a vast network of municipal and public-sector jobs. Hence why every single time a big city has to lay off part of it's workforce the protestors are always morbidly obese blacks, usually female.
ReplyDeleteThis pig won't take much more lipstick.
"A lot of the white pullout of schools in mid-size southern towns occurred around 1990 when Chicago-based gangs spread to these places."
ReplyDeleteThat would be interesting to look into. You can definitely see the impact of crack cocaine and gangsta rapping spreading across the country in that time frame in metropolitan homicide statistics, so this sounds pretty plausible. The crack killings peaked in NYC in 1990-91 and then burned out, but in third tier sunbelt cities, they started later and peaked in 1993-94.
Idle Spectator:"IQ scores is NOT the measure of an individual."
ReplyDeleteDid anyone ever say that it was the sole measure of an individual? No. It is, however, a pretty fair measurement of a given person's intelligence. And intelligence is not exactly unimportant in life....
Idle Spectator:"IQ scores only serve as an arbitrary decision maker among racialists,"
Not quite. IQ scores are also used to differentiate intelligence on an intra-racial basis. Also, they are far from arbitrary, as a vast body of scientific data supports their validity.
Anonymous:" white and black, as a "definitive marker" of inferiority."
Well, intellectual inferiority. On the other hand, a person with a 100 IQ might be braver or physically stronger than a person with a 115 IQ...
Idle Spectator:"1 Corinthians 4:7
For who sees anything different in you? What do you have that you did not receive? If then you received it, why do you boast as if you did not receive it?"
Hey, look. The Bible.
Idle Spectator:"A test, like a yardstick, is only ONE form of measurement."
Yeah. And it is a form of measurement that works pretty well for what it is designed to measure....
Idle Spectator:"If you use a yardstick alone, the information is completely one-dimensional."
Which is not a drawback, provided that you are only trying to measure one thing. Nobody faults a vision test for just telling us that someone is nearsighted. Likewise, no one should fault an IQ test for just telling us that someone is pretty stupid.
Idle Spectator:"Racialists, black and white, thrive on this concept--this method in their eyes never oversteps it’s boundaries as an indicator and it's always used as proof of a verdict regarding worth."
You might want to try reading Heernstein and Murray's THE BELL CURVE. I think that it might give a little insight into the field.
Mercedes has training programs in conjunction with community colleges elsewhere in the US - does it have one there? And if so, why isn't D'Leisha encouraged to apply instead of banging her head against the wall with the ACT? She'd make more assembling cars at Mercedes than she would working at Starbucks after scraping through some third tier college with a sociology degree. And given her non-academic high school accomplishments, she might have a shot at advancement to foreman or something at Mercedes.
ReplyDeleteAs a lady shotputter, D’Leisha actually would be a plausible Mercedes assembly line worker for the big firm to show they are hiring women to wrestled heavy parts into place, and then if she works hard she could eventually get promoted to forewoman.
ReplyDeleteHow is that such a tragic prospect in life?
I feel bad for D'Leisha, she struggles and still does badly. I know this is way out of line and close to impossible but, wouldn't it be a kindness to send most blacks back to Africa?
ReplyDeleteThe girl needs a college degree, from whatever bottom-tier institution, so she can get a lifetime sinecure in government. Sounds like she already has drive, social skills, and ambition, just not smarts.
ReplyDeleteHer parents didn't do her any favors with her name either. With the D', it says she is lower-class black; without the D', it says white trash.
Anthony:"I'll give her that. I asked my teachers the same thing, and never did get a satisfactory answer.
ReplyDeleteI still don't use dictionaries for looking up spelling, and am not sure I could if I really didn't know how a word was spelled."
By really not knowing, I'm assuming that you mean having no idea whatsoever. For example, wanting to write mnemonic, but not knowing that it starts with an "m." For the life of me, I can never recall running into a situation where I did not know the first few letters of a word.
Anthony:"But I asked my third and fourth grade teachers, not my 12th grade teachers. By fifth grade, I knew how to spell most words in English."
Which is the key point. By the time one is in High School, one's vocabulary should be strong enough that misspellings will be minor in nature (e.g., not being sure whether to use one "c" or two in recommend). Hence, using the dictionary to look up the correct spelling will be a tad more efficient than just opening it to a random page and hoping for the best.
Jimby said...
ReplyDeleteAgreed... mentally deficient, morally depraved, horrendously violent and congenitally hypocritical pretty much describes white people.
Damn, Jimby's onto us! Into the escape pod!
Seriously, if us white folks is so bad, then we're doing little D'Leshia and the rest of her fellow Central HS classmates a huge favor by keeping them away from our baleful influence.
You're welcome.
Jones told her to look [some word] up in one of the heavy red dictionaries in the baskets below their desks...
ReplyDelete“You know what I don’t understand?” the girl said, a pen poised at her lips. “You always tell us to look up the word. How are we supposed to look a word up if we don’t know to spell it?”
What's wrong with this question? I remember a kid in class (it may actually have been me) pointing out this difficulty. I think it was in about 2nd grade.
Hell, or names are getting segregated.
ReplyDeleteMelissa Dent -- black or white?
D'Leisha Dent -- black or white?
Barbara Jordan -- black or white?
Caitlin Jordan -- black or white?
I see a "DMV lady" in the future.
ReplyDeleteI find D'Leisha's story sad and troubling. The critical line is her comment that because she is class president,etc., her teachers think she is in fine shape in terms of college prospects when very clearly she is not. Her ACT scores suggest that she has a low ceiling on her post secondary prospects, but her extra curricular achievements suggest a somewhat greater potential - one that will never be discovered at Central High.
ReplyDelete"I feel bad for D'Leisha, she struggles and still does badly. I know this is way out of line and close to impossible but, wouldn't it be a kindness to send most blacks back to Africa? "
ReplyDeleteD'Leisha's situation seems to be more crushing to whites (or at least isteve commenters) than it is to D'Leisha herself. So she's experienced some frustration and disappointment, big effin deal, haven't we all? And what kind of a lunatic do you have to be to conclude that sending her "back to Africa" would be rendering her a kindness? There surely exist tasks that the author of that comment would be incapable of no matter how long or hard he tried or how badly he desired to succeed - does he deserve to be "sent" somewhere on the basis of such failure? Or would he prefer to be permitted to shrug his shoulders, tell himself he tried but couldn't get things to work out, and refocus his attention on things that bring him pleasure in life?
I can't believe that it's taking a vicious racist (me) to ask this:
ReplyDeleteJust what exactly is so special about white people?
You read the article, you might think we're the panacea, that our mere presence near coloured people will not only bring average scores up but improve theirs. Why would that be the case? Not even *I* have that high an opinion of us. At the risk of having someone point and sputter about "separate and equal", why would it be so ridiculous to have a high quality education in an entirely black school?
You have a higher chance of being stabbed or raped in a predominantly Black high school than you have in those fancy prisons that incarcerate wealthy non violent white collar criminals like Bernie Madoff for example.
ReplyDeleteIt is more dangerous to be a teacher in a predominantly Black high school than it is to be a prison guard who works at a prison that incarcerates non violent white collar criminals financially belong to the 1 percent.
"I think public policy … is more likely to influence whether or not there are car factories for people with below average IQs to work at than whether or not there are people with below average IQs."
ReplyDeleteVery true; can you boil it down to a good aphorism, though?
"Tuscaloosa's black middle class leadership sold out its black underclass in return for its own interests."
ReplyDeleteSimilarly in DC the Black Middle class, the Talented Tenth, moved to Prince Georges County and left the academically lower scoring corner backs behind to remain. T they stand there confused, on the street corners waiting for that NFL contract.
On another subject, about ten years ago we had school redistricting out here in suburban Md(Howard county) and the hypocrisy was breathtaking. People went from the observed state of saintly conspicuous compassion to snarling Lions fighting over Wildebeest bones, all over the demographic makeup of your kid's school and we are 30 miles out so the percentages were mild, in the twenties.
The public discussion was all pinchbeck, as the deal had been struck before it even reached the papers. Those who wanted to be rid of burdensome lower scorers had been working at the redistricting behind the scenes for five years, the actual open process was all for show.
And it is not just about educating your kids either, work behind the scenes, stroke the right school board member and you add the price of a new Hyundai to your house.
Silver wrote:
ReplyDelete"D'Leisha's situation seems to be more crushing to whites (or at least isteve commenters) than it is to D'Leisha herself. So she's experienced some frustration and disappointment, big effin deal, haven't we all? And what kind of a lunatic do you have to be to conclude that sending her "back to Africa" would be rendering her a kindness? There surely exist tasks that the author of that comment would be incapable of no matter how long or hard he tried or how badly he desired to succeed - does he deserve to be "sent" somewhere on the basis of such failure? Or would he prefer to be permitted to shrug his shoulders, tell himself he tried but couldn't get things to work out, and refocus his attention on things that bring him pleasure in life?"
It's not as common a theme on this site as some things, but a number of people who post here, and myself as well believe things have changed or will change rapidly.
While it is going to take a while (and I'd say 50 years will do most of it) technology is making it possible to replace a lot of things unskilled labor can do.
We've already seen a lot of this. In my opinion it is going to rapidly accelerate in the years to come. I think as little as ten years, and we will see a dramatically altered employment situation in the US.
So what I say is that in essence she will be unemployable, unless it is a public sector job or something else specifically manufactured and set in place to manufacture "employment."
This is just a hunch of mine, but within ten to twenty years I think we will see a situation where 50% of whites are essentially unemployable, and about 70-80% of blacks.
These folks will be on public assistance cradle to grave, with not a hope of being involved in productive economic activity.
A fate that is going to be shared by most of the immigrants that come to this country, save the "dot" Indians and the Asians.
It's also going to be interesting watching this change go up the food chain. There are a number of things that require college and other advanced degrees to perform, that are quite lucrative, and are also very amenable to automation.
The classic example is any doctor who sits at a desk and looks at pictures or any sort of test result and says "Yep, that is definitely cancer or something else in medical jargon."
I used to work as an engineer, and we had a lot of non-destructive testing technicians who did the same sort of thing.
"meaning schools whose white population is 1 percent or less"
ReplyDeleteSchools like that where the white kids are 1-10% or so are stealth gulags where the white population is being wiped out a little piece at a time - not just in America but across the entire Western world.
.
"Leftists failed with redistribution of wealth, but they figured redistribution of people would work just fine."
Leftists support unlimited mass immigration for cheap votes.
Rightists support unlimited mass immigration for cheap labor.
People who still see the destruction of the West as a left-right issue are part of the problem.
"I feel bad for D'Leisha, she struggles and still does badly. I know this is way out of line and close to impossible but, wouldn't it be a kindness to send most blacks back to Africa? "
ReplyDeleteRight-o.
Because blacks accomplish sooooo much when they're in countries of their own and not around white people. Just look at all the famous and accomplished blacks from history and notice that none of them derived any advantage (or relevance) from proximity to white people.
Steve Sailer wrote:
ReplyDelete> Tuscaloosa's black middle class leadership sold out its black underclass in return for its own interests.
As a couple of other commenters have asked -- does that sentence even make sense?
How about,
"California's white billionaires sold out its white middle class in return for its own interests."
Who expects Silicon Valley winners (or Russian oligarchs, Cosa Nostra capos, or Sinoloa drug lords) to be dutiful watchdogs of the genuine interests of their ethnic-affiliate fellow citizens?
Steve's wistful regret about the opportunism of the Talented Tenth reminds his readers of the vanished high-asabiya America in which he came of age.
Still, there is value in seeing hypocritical actions for what they are. By the look of her online material, that is something that Who-Whom'er Nikole Hannah-Jones will never let herself understand.
1) About the dictionary anecdote - if the poor girl had been taught "Sight Reading", rather than "Phonics", then she would NOT know how to "sound out a word" [and thereby guess the first few letters of the word], which, in turn, would deprive her of any insight as to where in the dictionary she should be looking for the word. [Of course, "Sight Reading" was brought to you by the very same sorts of anti-Civilizational nihilists who brought you Brown-v-Board, so you don't have to go far in looking for the wizards-of-smart who should be the object of your wrath here.]
ReplyDelete2) About the Grandfather having been a laborer: Given all the semi-skilled manufacturing jobs which have vanished since our elites pushed through MFN for China, and all the new competition for non-off-shore-able semi-skilled work since our elites opened the floodgates of the illegal invasion from Mexico, it's become something of a pipe dream to expect that this fellow's grandchildren should be able to pull themselves up by the bootstraps the way he did.
3) In light of the above, a factory fore-woman-ship at Mercedes would be a DREAM JOB for the likes of poor D'Queeneisha, but at the "umpteen sigmas" of quality which Mercedes is going to want in their product coming out of that assembly line, D'Queeneisha is probably off by a good standard deviation of IQ in what Stuttgart would prefer to see in that position.
So D'Queeneisha would need to demonstrate something like off-the-charts "3D spatial / nonlinear" skills, which don't show up well on "2D/linear" tests like the ACTs and SATs and traditional IQ tests.
Some folks have those kinda mad offbeat skillz - especially folks who are good at working with their hands - but there's no guarantee that someone with those skillz is also going to be able to master e.g. the error-tracking actuarial software which a modern high-tech factory is going to want them to interface with on a regular basis, the mastery of which correlates so much more strongly with the traditional "2D/linear" tests.
And what kind of a lunatic do you have to be to conclude that sending her "back to Africa" would be rendering her a kindness?
ReplyDeleteSo we're going to be brutally honest with ourselves here?
Absent quota-hire make-work jobs on the right extreme of the bell curve, and EBT cards restuffed with fiat currency each month on the left extreme of the bell curve, how exactly is this poor girl supposed to keep from starving to death?
Compete as an American citizen with a valid Social Security Number against under-the-table illegal alien labor for the right to change the semen-soaked bedsheets in Vinod Patel's "hourly rates" roach motel?
That'll work right up until Vinod figures out that he has to pay income tax, unemployment tax, FICA tax, Mediscare tax, and Obamacare taxes on D'Queenisha's salary, but he doesn't have to pay any of that shiznat on Rosarita Fernandez's under-the-table salary.
To Anony 9:53 p.m. 4/20/14
ReplyDeleteOf course IQ is valid. Of course IQ is a legitimate measure of intelligence. The issue I have is when racialists, or better known as "civilized savages" exclusively focus on this data point to tout intellectual superiority.
Concepts of intelligence emphasize understanding and relating to others--including knowing when to show and when not to show one's intelligence. Such differences between Eastern and Western views of intelligence are tied to differences in the basic cognitive processes of people in Eastern and Western cultures; hence, one group deems a particular metric as fundamentally important.
Over the past two decades, researchers have investigated concepts of intelligence in Africa. Among the Luo people in rural Kenya, scientists have found that ideas about intelligence consist of four broad concepts: rieko, which largely corresponds to the Western idea of academic intelligence, but also includes specific skills; luoro, which includes social qualities like respect, responsibility and consideration; paro, or practical thinking; and winjo, or comprehension. Only one of the four--rieko--is correlated with traditional Western measures of intelligence.
"Oh, look, the Bible".
Perhaps you ought to read and digest its meaning. It does the soul wonders!
"Likewise, no one should fault an IQ test for just telling us that someone is pretty stupid."
Are you able to create a well-designed shelter using nothing but your wits and the environment around you in a specified time frame?
Are you able to present hundreds of stories that clearly detail the history of a group of people?
If you can't, you're pretty stupid.
Many years ago I went through a period where I was both down on my luck and very naive. Stupid enough to be fearless, and with limited options, I rented a house in one of the worst black ghettos in New Orleans.
ReplyDeleteI remember one of my barely literate neighbors telling me about how lucky he had been to get his child into a "good" public school. His evidence that it was a good school: his child's class had 10 white students in it!
There is no "talented 10th", except relative to other blacks. Relative to other truly talented groups (Jews, Asians) intellectually "talented" blacks are vanishingly rare. If your population mean is 85, by the time you get out to 115 or 130, the area under the bell curve is so small that you need a microscope to see it.
ReplyDeleteD'Leisha and her AP classmates are about as good as it gets in the American black community and the best is not very good, in fact sadly mediocre. No matter how much you rant about racism, you cannot make silk purses out of these sow's ears. D'Leisha herself complains that kids from other schools knew more stuff than she did (which is probably true), thus accounting for her lower ACT score , but this has to do with the kids themselves and not with their schools. If you had moved D'Leisha to one of those schools, her scores would not have improved, because the ACT/SAT are basically IQ tests and IQ is more or less fixed at birth.
But any discussion along these lines is verboten, so the result is that the elephant in the room is ignored and we spend endless time and money on witch doctor solutions - send all the kids to the same school, send them to different schools, do more testing, do less testing, give the teachers tenure, fire them for bad performance, etc. etc. and yet the results never change because they cannot change (without changing the composition of the population). There is never any honest discussion, just hypocrisy piled upon hypocrisy and the article in The Atlantic is just one more contribution to the pile of worthless evasion.
The reason for segreagation was so that Black Men would not seduce white girls.
ReplyDeleteFor some reason, consrvative whites cannot handle the fact that white girls crave Men of Color.
D'Leisha probably doesn't have the brainpower to learn Algebra II or critically analyze Shakespeare. But why should she? There's plenty of jobs that need done that shouldn't need it. By the article's account she's friendly, personable, focused, decently intelligent and willing to put in good effort. She'd probably make a more than fine restaurant manager or elementary school teacher.
ReplyDeleteBut these and many other jobs require higher education degrees. Degrees that were originally designed for 85th percentile to develop highly-cognitive loaded knowledge and skills. But because of a societal wide push for college as the be-all and end-all we now expect D'Leisha to go to a university, pass an arbitrary IQ threshold and learn some completely irrelevant material. All things unnecessary 50 years ago, recognizing some people as naturally more intellectually gifted, were willing to create different tracks for different people.
Winner, winner, chicken dinner! That's the real problem here. We are consigning capable people to the bread line due to excessive credentialism. We need to get real about the value of a college degree and the students who are capable of achieving it.
I feel bad for D'Leisha, she struggles and still does badly.
ReplyDeleteShe does badly? Maybe at taking the ACT, but by the article's account she can do other things well. Why not take advantage of those capabilities?
"In other words, engineers and executives from Stuttgart aren't going to send their kids to majority black schools. And let's not even think about Hyundai executives ..."
ReplyDeleteThere's another group your leaving out there, Steve - the Bama faculty. Tuscaloosa is home to the state's flagship University (or second flagship University, if you went to Auburn). A lot of the mean white folk who resegregated the schools were all those (undoubtedly liberal and progressive) university professors and administrators. They wouldn't want THIER kids going to an all black school.
Rahm unwittingly puts his finger on the central conceit of the Talented Tenth:
ReplyDeleteWhen blacks want to escape black ghetto trash and go live with the white folks it is called "a class issue" and is a Good Thing (tm).
When white folks do exactly the same thing (for exactly the same reasons!), it is called "a race issue" and is a Bad Thing.
Likewise the various black segregationist organizations like Jack and Jill. These organizations piddle around doing a few ghetto projects to assuage their guilt for being race traitors and they hammer on white folks (like Rahm does) to be "down with the hood" for the same reason.
Black traitors need a huge black underclass so their kids can get the plum jobs. They know their kids aren't that bright, but the bigger the underclass, the more likely it is that THEIR kids will be promoted and advanced.
We see this everyday as black leaders from Jackson to Sharpton champion amnesty for black wage-destroying and black job-thieving third worlders. Mayor Nutter, for example, announced that his city is not going to cooperate with Federal immigration
"For example, as a Catholic school kid in the San Fernando Valley, which is isolated spatially by the Hollywood Hills, I noticed that Jewish kids at the park, who all went to public schools, looked down upon Catholic schools as alien and un-American But when busing from Watts into the San Fernando Valley was ordered in the late 1970s, local Jewish politicians led the fight against integration, and Jews started an impressive number of private schools."
ReplyDeleteI find it interesting how people whose ancestors came to this country less than a century ago arrogated to themselves the authority to decide what was, and was not, "American". And how they quickly reevaluated thier decision once they were exposed to a little vibrancy.
'Here's a long, serious article from The Atlantic that, when read closely, self-destructs."
ReplyDeleteThere are no serious articles in The Atlantic, Steve.
The comments are way off on this one. D'Leisha's immediate future is quite bright. Her ACT is 17 (her highest score) and is the black average. There are a large number of universities that would love to have her attend (I teach at one) and she most likely will get a significant amount of scholarship money.
ReplyDeleteGiven her history she will be active in campus groups and take leadership roles within the organizations. There are also numerous programs set up for students like D'Leisha which are designed to encourage Black Leadership (I often have students miss a couple of classes a semester to attend these things). She will make a number of contacts at these events.
She can easily earn a B-A average by majoring in sociology, family studies, communications, education, etc. After she graduates she will be sought after by employers for numerous reasons.
She can pull down a comfortable salary through work, and given her past she may choose to run for city council, school board, or go back to school and get and advanced degree in education. She can then become a principal or superintendent and make a very high salary.
I would love to be able to check back in with D'Leisha in five years. I would put money on my prediction against those of other posters.
Harry Carry
"""""There is no "talented 10th", except relative to other blacks. Relative to other truly talented groups (Jews, Asians) intellectually "talented" blacks are vanishingly rare. If your population mean is 85, by the time you get out to 115 or 130, the area under the bell curve is so small that you need a microscope to see it.""""""
ReplyDeleteSo then, a person such as Michelle Obama is at the near genius level.
"""""the article in The Atlantic is just one more contribution to the pile of worthless evasion."""""
The Atlantic is a magazine that is much beloved by old school style SWPL'S, and thus comprise the vast majority of readership. Most of the magazine's authors are white as well.
Therefore, as they are preaching to the choir (e.g. liberal, sophisticated, SWPLS) the article's theme remains the same "What can WE, the best and the brightest whites of our generation DO to make this problem (obviously race related in nature, since what else could account for the disastrous test scores of blacks?) go away? Something must be DONE, damnit!
The article accomplishes two things.
1. Calls attention to the fact that the Atlantic is enlightened, caring, and otherwise concerned about the well being of its fellow man.
2. Gives the illusion that something constructive is being done and thus this article can be trotted oute again come the next anniversary of Brown v Board.
It was fairly common, back in the day, as the Civil Rights Movt was starting to gain traction, that when these arguments were publicly presented, the enlightened, best of the brightest whites could trot out several members within the talented tenth as examples of why Civil Rights, AA, etc needed to pass.
Nowadays it would be highly doubtful that these same members of the best and brightest and most enlightened could in fact trot out numerous examples since as before, the talented tenth is no longer a full tenth but more along the lines of a 2-5%, if that many in actual total percentage of educated, productive blacks.
After all, if D'Leisha is the best example within all of Tuscaloosa that they could promote as part of the talented tenth, then that's not a very good sign.
They might as well have promoted Rachel Jeantel; there is no fundamental difference between the two.
The BBC leadenly intones: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-27067615
ReplyDeleteGoing through an old scrapbook I found a copy of my brother's sixth-grade graduation photo in 1966. There were about 60 whites and four blacks in the photo. This was under Freedom of Choice. Another 140 blacks attended the all-black elementary school.
ReplyDeleteThe schools were forced to adopt a unitary system. Three private schools opened. Two have now closed due to the loss of white students, and the other is barely hanging on. There MIGHT be 60 white students residing in the city school district, or five per grade. The white people have simply left. A few have gone to the county, but most have simply left the area entirely. There are now no whites left to integrate with.
Home prices have gone to nothing. The Homepath mortgage site reports just this week that a 4,500-square-foot antebellum home, beautifully restored, just went under contract. The asking price was $120,000; I’m sure it sold for less. It was the childhood home of Boss Crump. Another mansion, used in the movie Cookie's Fortune, sold for little of nothing about three years ago.
Liberal journalist Douglas Blackmon wrote a piece for Harper's magazine back in 1992 entitled "The Resegregation of a Southern School," in which he lambasted the white community of Leland, Mississippi, for not doing more to support integration. But to his credit he does describe what attending the Leland schools was like: "At school, racial tensioned characterized the daily dynamic. Fistfights on the playground between whites and blacks were routine, and being harassed by blacks as I walked home through their neighborhood after school was so common that I was amazed later to learn that anyone else had grown up differently."
Liberals do not seem to understand that most parents simply will not choose to have their children beaten, harassed, or made miserable as a condition of going to public school.
We are all in search of beauty, including blacks. But when they think they found this type of eschatology appears as D'Leisha.
ReplyDeleteFor most blacks, the beauty is in their super egos developed, the only thing that is super developed in their little minds.
The iQ is a dimensional measure of intelligence, especially technique, generalized memory capacity. That does not mean if u break the cognitive characteristics, blacks will stand out considerably in some element that was hidden in the most general measurements.
However I continue with the idea that the most powerful intelligence test that can exist is to be able to see, accept and live with the truth and therefore reality. You may have iq you want but if you continue to deny the truth that is sambando on your face, then you're not smart enough.
The best iq test is to find the output matrix that psychopaths built to enslave us.
The missing analysis in this story is the history of D'Leisha Mom, Melissa.
ReplyDeleteThe story mentions University of Alabama as Melissa's alma mater. Did she graduate? How did she get in? Were the required ACT scores that much lower than now?
How did she become a single mother with 4 children living in the worst part of town?
And how did her mom become clueless about how to apply to college? Everyone has a computer now, or at least a smart phone. And why would we expect D'Leisha to do any better than mom at a flagship state university (although not an elite one).
And what about, say, 2 years in a community college? They have a college track and can do a good job in preparing students to transfer to a four year school. I'll admit it is rare for all sorts of reasons, but four year public universities actually want to enroll the best students from community colleges.
Her first name is not a sign of a family bent on social mobility. I do feel sorry for D'Leisha. Even a pathetic tiger mom could get her ACT score close to 25. An Asian mom I know ... who is far from a tiger mom has her kid in 4 hours a week in SAT/ACT prep as a Sophomore, trying to get her score from 30 to 35. I forecast at least a 34. And 30 to 35 is much harder than 16 to 24.
How to make stop-and-frisk more palatable.
ReplyDeleteCall it affirmative inspection.
One almost amusing story about Howard County Schools. I used to live there. And my daughter went to a middle school that was well known to have a relatively high percentage of black students. I thought it was maybe 30% or wasn't thinking.
ReplyDeleteShe was tracked into the top group. She had one good black friend whose mom was a doctor. But the teachers were generally good. On 'back to school' night, the parents of the other kids seemed fine.
It wasn't until I went to graduation that I saw a cross section of the school. I was shocked and appalled. It wasn't the racial makeup, but rather the hip hop influenced atmosphere.
Anyway, she went to high school at a small, elite private high school (Baltimore County has a tradition of very good prep schools, with the Catholics receiving a solid Jesuit style education.
At her private school, she was a year ahead in math, and she seemed as well or better prepared than her classmates. The point of this isn't to elaborate on my kid's brilliance but rather to point out the emphasis on tracking as a strategy to prevent white flight. I have subsequently seen this done in Chicago High Schools. In one instance, not only were the kids tracked -- I suppose not that differently than Central -- they also made a huge effort to prevent the top track from harassment and bullying.
That D'Leisha was even taking AP English is impressive, so they employ a sort of tracking even there. AP's are just a test with a formula curriculum, and can't work wonders.
The main point of this is that there are schools (but not many) that do work very hard to keep white flight to a minimum. I suppose you could consider heavily tracked schools to be segregated in another way, but too much focus on just school based segregation. Students will segregate by ability one way or another.
D'Leisha will be rejected by the military also if her IQ does not reach 92.
ReplyDeleteThe Iron Law of development is:
ReplyDeleteAgruculture --> Manufacturing --> Services.
And services are jobs that require humans, and aren't necessarily good or bad. It's a wide spectrum -- and more than burger flippers and high end doctors and lawyers. Most people in office buildings perform services and a lot of them aren't elite jobs.
Until we invent self painting houses and self resurfacing roads, there will even be jobs for people with strong backs and weak minds.
I find D'Leisha's story sad and troubling. The critical line is her comment that because she is class president,etc., her teachers think she is in fine shape in terms of college prospects when very clearly she is not.
ReplyDeleteHer teachers know the drill: no matter how ill-equipped the student is, they must gush over going to college. Suggesting they go to trade school or get a job at the local service station with Cousin Pookie and Ray-Ray can get a teacher tagged as a raciss. So teachers talk college, college, college and avoid the hassle. So says a nice white lady teacher in the Memphis public schools.
"Doesn't Tuskegee take girls like her?"
ReplyDeleteIf she can't manage more than a 17 on the ACT, how's she gonna manage a 1500hp fighter aircraft?
I mean really.
"Winner, winner, chicken dinner! That's the real problem here. We are consigning capable people to the bread line due to excessive credentialism. We need to get real about the value of a college degree and the students who are capable of achieving it." - which brings us to disparate impact.
ReplyDelete"Over the past two decades, researchers have investigated concepts of intelligence in Africa. Among the Luo people in rural Kenya, scientists have found that ideas about intelligence consist of four broad concepts: rieko, which largely corresponds to the Western idea of academic intelligence, but also includes specific skills; luoro, which includes social qualities like respect, responsibility and consideration; paro, or practical thinking; and winjo, or comprehension. Only one of the four--rieko--is correlated with traditional Western measures of intelligence."
ReplyDeleteThe saddest thing about this mush is the overwhelming likelihood that you're white.
"For some reason, consrvative whites cannot handle the fact that white girls crave Men of Color."
ReplyDeleteFor some reason "anti-racists" cannot handle the fact that whites are people too, and may therefore prefer to live on rather die out.
"A fate that is going to be shared by most of the immigrants that come to this country, save the "dot" Indians and the Asians." - don't get your hopes up, chain migration will bring the absolutely unemployable parts of their population here in large numbers, and is indeed already doing so.
ReplyDelete"It's also going to be interesting watching this change go up the food chain. There are a number of things that require college and other advanced degrees to perform, that are quite lucrative, and are also very amenable to automation." - business investment in capital is down precisely because labor is neither scarce, nor expensive. Businesses have no incentive to automate if labor is dirt cheap.
The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money.
ReplyDeleteThe problem with Diversity/cultural Marxists is that eventually you run out of other people's (i.e. the Founding Stock's) people, their social capital, and run down their institutions which mean little w/o the old founding stock.
OT I wonder how the Romney family is doing with the Black child....it seems to me that it will ruin the cohesiveness of the family ...I winder if they had the parents IQ tested.
Or, as I once heard a black guy in Oakland put it, "where I come from, we only talk for a little while, then we start to hit."
ReplyDeleteIdle Spectator:"Of course IQ is valid. Of course IQ is a legitimate measure of intelligence."
ReplyDeleteThen we have nothing to argue about.
Idle Spectator:" The issue I have is when racialists, or better known as "civilized savages" exclusively focus on this data point to tout intellectual superiority."
Well, they do that because a person with, say, a 145 IQ is intellectually superior to someone with an 85 IQ; there's no way to get around that.
Idle Spectator:"Concepts of intelligence emphasize understanding and relating to others--"
That's not intelligence.
Idle Spectator:"including knowing when to show and when not to show one's intelligence. Such differences between Eastern and Western views of intelligence are tied to differences in the basic cognitive processes of people in Eastern and Western cultures; hence, one group deems a particular metric as fundamentally important."
Well, yeah. IQ is pretty damn important if you want to, say, build a plane, write a symphony, write a novel, design a vaccine, etc.
Idle Specatator:"Over the past two decades, researchers have investigated concepts of intelligence in Africa."
I'm guessing that those concepts probably don't include stuff like being able to understand calculus...
Idle Spectator:" Among the Luo people in rural Kenya, scientists have found that ideas about intelligence consist of four broad concepts: rieko, which largely corresponds to the Western idea of academic intelligence, but also includes specific skills;"
So far so good...
Idle Spectator:"luoro, which includes social qualities like respect, responsibility and consideration;"
And then we go off the rails. These qualities have nothing to do with intelligence. Indeed, these are qualities that a stupid person can possess. It's one of the reasons why IQ and moral worth have very little to do with one another.
Idle Spectator:" paro, or practical thinking;"
MMMM, being able to handle high level mathematics is pretty practical when one is trying to do physics...
Idle Spectator:" and winjo, or comprehension."
MMMM, comprehension seems pretty damn important when one is attempting to slog through Whitehead and Russell's Principia Mathematica.....
Idle Spectator:" Only one of the four--rieko--is correlated with traditional Western measures of intelligence."
Actually, as you have defined them for us, that does not seem to be the case.
Idle spectator:"Perhaps you ought to read and digest its meaning. It does the soul wonders!"
I've read it. JOB and CANTICLES were quite good from a literary standpoint. REVELATION had a nice, science fictional feel. LEVITICUS was ineffably tedious.All in all, a solid read. Not quite up to the standards of Homer, but still quite good.
Idle Spectator:"Are you able to create a well-designed shelter using nothing but your wits and the environment around you in a specified time frame?"
Thanks to my Army Ranger uncle, yes. He used to take us out camping when I was a kid and had us build our own shelters as a contest. No tools allowed, and only local materials. On the other hand,I tend to think that D'Leisha wouldn't do too well at that one....
Idle Spectator:"Are you able to present hundreds of stories that clearly detail the history of a group of people?"
Actually, I can. I could reel off a pretty effective narrative of the histories of Rome, England, and the USA. One of the benefits of reading a lot....
Idle Spectator:"If you can't, you're pretty stupid."
Sadly, no. The fact that I can do those things does not indicate much in the way of IQ (barring, of course, the extensive reading).
A lot of libs like to make a lot of noise about kick-starting a new wave of school desegregation. But I don't think there's going to be any serious desire in the left any time soon for the kind of deseg that transfers whites out of white schools and into schools that are heavily or significantly black.
ReplyDeleteThe reason is that the deseg issue was the number one vector for moving white people from either apathy, insouciance or disagreement into racialist thought and politics in the second half of the 20th century.
Yeah, that 70% figure as the panic point is quite a joke. This is how you know that journos are uninterested in truth. Blacks themselves will tell you that whites would be in trouble way before 70%. I had a black guy tell me that I "wouldnda lasted a week" at his high school in San Francisco, which was only about 40% black. Nice guy though - he was talking about his buddies.
ReplyDeleteWhen you go to a public Southern High school with a black percentage of 40%+ you notice that the most striking new event is the invasion of tumbleweeds - balls of torn-out hair weave that accumulate when the black females have their daily knockdown/dragout fights.
ReplyDeleteThey don't even know how much they don't know.
ReplyDeleteMy brother remembers a black kid being all upset about the word "gazebo" being on the ACT - how was a black person supposed to know that word - it was racist to have it on the test. My brother didn't know that gazebos were a whites-only thing until that moment. And that was a black kid being raised in the white suburbs attending a very good public school.
"Parents take their kids out of schools that are 70% black? I'd imagine most take their kids out well before that. I'd probably do it at 20%."
ReplyDeleteNah, you wouldn't because the students in the classes with yours would still be 90% white. You wouldn't pull your kid out because there were two or three black kids in each of your child's classes. Most of the black kids would be in the lower non-honors classes with the dumber/poorer whites who are already less likely to leave anyway.
@silver:
ReplyDelete> There surely exist tasks that the author of that comment would be incapable of no matter how long or hard he tried or how badly he desired to succeed
Well you don't fail until you give up but, yes, sure. But what's she trying to do? She's an ace at her school but has no traction at all toward college. It just highlights the complete gap between her and what's required for success in this society. And, lesser work is drying up for everyone. Better to be somewhere with lower expectations.
Happiness is your success in comparison with your neighbors. If she ran a small business in a small town where that's what everyone else was doing she wouldn't be out of her element.
True it would feel like no favor to send her to Africa now, but if she had been born there she'd have been fine. And, if sent now, her future kids would fit right in. The most important things in life aren't money.
Of course it's only a thought experiment.
Integration is more important than Sailer admits
ReplyDeleteStudents of Color who aren't exposed to white culture arrive ill-equipped for college or a middle-class office.
white students aren't prepared for a country that will have no racial majority by 2050. They will have no understanding of anything except white middle-class culture and are not going to function very well in that society. They are going to make lots of mistakes.
People of Color have many children while whites are aging.
ReplyDeleteSoon, whites will have no place to hide.
Segregation appears to be the culprit in the Marine Corps as well:
ReplyDelete"A Marine's story: Women set up to fail USMC’s most grueling test"
https://news.yahoo.com/blogs/power-players-abc-news/a-marines-story-women-set-up-to-fail-usmc-s-most-grueling-test-223033894.html
"At a petite 5’3’’, Sage Santangelo may not look like a combat fighter at first glance. But the female second lieutenant has never let that hold her back from pursuing her dream of becoming an infantry officer in the Marine Corps.
Growing up, Santangelo found she was always able to keep up with the guys and enjoyed playing hockey on all boys’ teams. But when she joined the Marines, Santangelo found the playing field changed; she was segregated into female-only training units and as a woman, was relegated to less strenuous physical training than her male counterparts. And that’s why, Santangelo told “On the Radar,” she didn’t have a fair shot at passing the Marine Corps’ Infantry Officer Course."
Those ACT scores certainly suggest one thing. The score, however valid it may be, is one reliable test.
ReplyDelete"D'Leisha will be rejected by the military also if her IQ does not reach 92."
ReplyDeleteDon't be so sure.
Sixty years after Brown v. Board of Education, the schools in Tuscaloosa, Alabama, show how separate and unequal education is coming back.
ReplyDeleteThis topic is strictly for the rubes. Everybody with two brain cells to rub together knows the NE (the Atlantic's home region) never really desegregated, and has been far less integrated than the SE ever since Brown.
The American media is thick with Jews, but Jews in Israel can't even integrate with people of a different religion, let alone ethnicity or race.
In 1979, a federal judge had ordered the merger of the city’s two largely segregated high schools into one. ...
"Largely segregated"; you know, like all the schools in the Atlantic's home region.
The reason for the decline of Central’s homecoming parade is no secret. In 2000, another federal judge released Tuscaloosa City Schools from the court-ordered desegregation mandate that had governed it for a single generation. Central had successfully achieved integration, the district had argued—it could be trusted to manage that success going forward.
Freed from court oversight, Tuscaloosa’s schools have seemed to move backwards in time.
Backwards in time, to exactly where the northeast is currently, and has been ever since Brown. Backwards in time, to equality with the northeast.
Tuscaloosa’s schools today are not as starkly segregated as they were in 1954
Correct; they're as starkly segregated as the schools in the northeast in 2014.
But while segregation as it is practiced today may be different than it was 60 years ago, it is no less pernicious: in Tuscaloosa and elsewhere
"Elsewhere" = the northeast, where the Atlantic is headquartered.
In Tuscaloosa today, nearly one in three black students attends a school that looks as if Brown v. Board of Education never happened.
Just like in the northeast, where the Atlantic is.
"In recent years, a new term, apartheid schools—meaning schools whose white population is 1 percent or less, schools like Central—has entered the scholarly lexicon. While most of these schools are in the Northeast and Midwest, some 12 percent of black students in the South now attend such schools"
In other words, the North was traditionally segregated spatially, while the South was segregated socially.
Or, in other words, the problem is in the northeast and the midwest, not the south, and not Tuscaloosa.
In other words, democracy: whites provided tax money
Yup. The people paying (should) get a bigger say in what's done with the money. Shocking to libs, common sense to humans.
It is no small irony that efforts to woo the very plant that allows Melissa Dent to earn enough to support her family also played a part in ensuring that her children would attend nearly all-black schools.
How are quid pro quo and getting what you pay for ironic?
To Anony 4/21/14 11:55 a.m.
ReplyDelete“Then we have nothing to argue about.”
You clearly missed it the first time. For your benefit--The issue I have is when racialists, or better known as "civilized savages" exclusively focus on this data point to tout intellectual superiority.
“Are you able to create a well-designed shelter...yes.”
“Are you able to present hundreds of stories..yes.”
Excellent! Then you have just illustrated how intelligence manifests itself for a wide range of skills. You know, like building a plane, writing a symphony, etc. Perhaps you are unfamiliar with Howard Gardner’s Model, which focuses on seven different types of intelligence.
“Idle Spectator:"Concepts of intelligence emphasize understanding and relating to others--" That's not intelligence.
And you would be sadly mistaken. Social intelligence--the capacity to effectively negotiate complex social relationships and environments. This specific type is measured in particular by Fortune 500 Companies.
“4C is a big data analytics and social intelligence platform that collects public social data and applies exclusive analysis and mapping algorithms to track relationships between audiences, behavior and brand affinity. It combines more than 20 years of university research in big data and computational science with proven advertising acumen to reveal new audience insight for brands and agencies.”
http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/social-intelligence-company-4c-announces-5m-series-b-funding-241267991.html
“On the other hand,I tend to think that D'Leisha wouldn't do too well at that one....”
Except that she was in Girl Scouts. Nice try.
“Actually, as you have defined them for us, that does not seem to be the case.”
I didn’t define them, researchers did. By all means, call them up and tell them they are “wrong”.
In a media appearance on CBS, Mr. Hannah-Jones stated that forced integration is what will close the gap. http://www.cbsnews.com/videos/reflecting-on-the-50th-anniversary-of-the-civil-rights-act/
ReplyDeleteI suspect that if someone wanted to put in the effort that they would find the claims about Central High School having vast numbers of national merit scholars and winning academic teams is vastly overstated. I also suspect that the claim that integration closed the gap without lowering white performance is also a lie.
One of the topics that the Department of Education refuses to fund studies on is the impact of being a white student in a majority black school. One can probably safety assume that the Education bureaucrats are afraid of what they would find, so they refuse to ask the question.
Why couldn't the daughter get a college level job?
ReplyDeleteWho is the granddaughter's father and where is he now?
Interesting, a federal judge actually reading and abiding by the intent of the Constitution and forced desegregation, technically, would be vs the 1st Amendment Clause of freedom of association and therefore UNconstitutional.
ReplyDeleteAFAIK freedom of association has never really been interpreted that way. It's always been about the right to gather in numbers to protest, vote, etc. I'd be happy to be wrong here, but from what I gather, there's pretty much zero legal precedent for what normal people would consider the freedom of association: the right to sell your home to whomever you wish, for whatever reasons, the right to hire and fire whomever you wish, for whatever reasons, the right to dispose of your property as you wish (who to server with your business, etc.), for whatever reasons, etc.
This is absurd. I'm sure white parents who can control it aren't comfortable sending their kids to schools that are much more than 20% black.
This makes sense even in strictly PC terms: "I want my kid to go to a school that looks like America," that sort of thing.
Let me see if I have this right. D'Leisha, we are repeatedly told, is an honors student. Despite this fact, her ACT score (after several attempts) is a 16. And people wonder why university administrators don't trust High School GPAs....
And I'll show you how to get it left: that's why good people don't trust test scores. Because Racial Equality Above The Neck.
Instead of being angry over social injustice, I'm now enraged over a High School system that allows someone this mediocre to be an honors student.
What's unjust about a big fish in a little pond? Honor student means "honored for academically out-performing one's peers."
Agreed... mentally deficient, morally depraved, horrendously violent and congenitally hypocritical pretty much describes white people.
If that's true, then you've got nothing to whine about when whites want to escape you. In fact, we're allies. Right? We want to move away from you freely, and you want us to be able to.
Back in the real world: if what you say is true, why does everyone follow us around? Why can't we have any place to ourselves, away from you? Why do you oppose this right for whites (inter alia)?
And there you have a decent description of our society reaching the limits of its carrying capacity. The Great Society programs were passed in '64 and '65 when whites made up about 87% of the population. Despite those policies being flawed, the enormous carrying capacity of an 87% European population covered up many of the costs. However, coupled with the growing effects of the 1965 immigration act, our society's carrying capacity has been degraded to the point that the Great Society polices are now becoming too costly and can no longer be papered over. The future is not looking good.
ReplyDeleteIndeed: the delusion of racial equality is eating America alive. It's really astounding how pernicious its effects are, when you stop and think about it. Then the libs stumble in drunkenly and demand to know why you're such a wicked person, questioning their delusion.
"Is it all that awful for 90 IQ black students to get to grow up feeling superior to 80 IQ black classmates rather than feeling inferior to 100 IQ white classmates?"
IQ scores is NOT the measure of an individual. IQ scores only serve as an arbitrary decision maker among racialists, white and black, as a "definitive marker" of inferiority.
Yes, some people are definitely what I call "IQ fetishists," and seem to think IQ is the end-all and be-all of the discussion. And there are plenty of them here. But it certainly doesn't apply to me, or even most of the people who think IQ is important, or all "racialists." And none of this papers over the fact that you changed "feeling superior" to "the measure of an individual." Words often have several meanings, you should try and look up "superior" and "inferior" and refresh your working knowledge.
1 Corinthians 4:7
For who sees anything different in you? What do you have that you did not receive? If then you received it, why do you boast as if you did not receive it?
Again, "boasting" and "inferior" or "superior" are quite different words, with very different meanings. If I say I can run faster than a baby, I'm not boasting, I'm stating a fact. Many Christians and post-Christians turn modesty into a fetish, ruining its value in the process. And I don't see anything modest about deliberately misinterpreting people, or taking offense when there's really none to be had.
A test, like a yardstick, is only ONE form of measurement.
Its you who has a problem with the terms "inferior" and "superior"; perhaps you should do a review and get yourself intellectually squared-away, and get back to us.
The black middle class in the US (and UK for that matter) is very much an artificial construct. In 99% perfect of the cases it's built upon a vast network of municipal and public-sector jobs. Hence why every single time a big city has to lay off part of it's workforce the protestors are always morbidly obese blacks, usually female.
ReplyDeleteI for one would really like to have more info on just how much of the black middle class in America is dependent upon gov't or gov't-funded "industries" for their SES. I looked into it about a year ago and couldn't find much via search engines.
White nitwits throughout the South insist that "their" blacks were just fine until they moved North and fell under the influence of the evil "Yankees."
I've noticed that "our" blacks are a lot less obnoxious than "yours." But I'm willing to concede the possibility that you only attracted the bad ones, rather than created them.
Did anyone ever say that it was the sole measure of an individual? No.
No, but a lot of 'spergs here do seem to imply it a lot, especially on behalf of populations that do better on tests than they do in the real world, in the aggregate.
feel bad for D'Leisha, she struggles and still does badly. I know this is way out of line and close to impossible but, wouldn't it be a kindness to send most blacks back to Africa?
It's not unkind to notice that a very substantial portion of American/western black grievances arises from living in proximity to whites. African blacks lack these complexes because they weren't reminded on a daily basis that their race isn't as good at lots of important stuff as other races are.
You read the article, you might think we're the panacea, that our mere presence near coloured people will not only bring average scores up but improve theirs. Why would that be the case? Not even *I* have that high an opinion of us. At the risk of having someone point and sputter about "separate and equal", why would it be so ridiculous to have a high quality education in an entirely black school?
I suppose the "thinking" here is that, given a substantial proportion of white students, evil YT will make the school run efficiently so his kids are educated, whereas, lacking that proportion, evil YT will throw the black school to the wolves. Of course, the real problem is YT must not have anything for himself, the way blacks, Jews, and everyone else gets to.
Are you able to create a well-designed shelter using nothing but your wits and the environment around you in a specified time frame?
ReplyDeleteYes, though I suppose my answer hinges upon the environment around me. (P.S., survivalism is a white thing)
Are you able to present hundreds of stories that clearly detail the history of a group of people?
Yes, though I'd have to learn them first, and see no (intelligent) reason that should move up my list of priorities.
If you can't, you're pretty stupid.
Why? Is either going to put some gold in my pocket?
If you had moved D'Leisha to one of those schools, her scores would not have improved, because the ACT/SAT are basically IQ tests and IQ is more or less fixed at birth.
And she'd have dropped off the honor roll.
reason for segreagation was so that Black Men would not seduce white girls.
For some reason, consrvative whites cannot handle the fact that white girls crave Men of Color.
For some reason, you push this meme, even though you are not black. You are probably a South Asian. Oh, I think I know the reason now...
The article accomplishes two things.
1. Calls attention to the fact that the Atlantic is enlightened, caring, and otherwise concerned about the well being of its fellow man.
2. Gives the illusion that something constructive is being done and thus this article can be trotted oute again come the next anniversary of Brown v Board.
3. Gives the Atlantic readers living in areas with more segregated schools a justification for looking down their noses at southerners who have been living in areas with less segregated schools, and are only now "regressing" to the level of school segregation found in the northeast.
Just thought of something. A few days back, Steve wrote that there were some states that had no AP test takers for the year and another state (Alabama? or was it Mississippi?) only had one or a few AP test takers statewide.
ReplyDeleteIf one of those states was Alabama, wouldn't it be funny irony that D'Leisha was the lone AP test taker in the state of Alabama for her particular school year?
Ironies, ironies. Wonder why the Atlantic didn't bother to point that out as a plus on her side?
That was for a specific AP exam - computer science, iirc. Total AP tests taken in Alabama for all subject likely number in the thousands, if not tens of thousands.
Delete1)I dont' read this as "not enough white kids" as simply " elite blacks avoiding dysfunctional blacks. Even if Tuscaloosa public schools had zero white kids, the elites would have fashioned a map to escape from the dysfunctionals.
ReplyDelete2) The generational names predict outcome: James--->Melissa--->D'Leisha.
3) My husband's niece scored ACT 14. She took 5 years to graduate from nursing school, and now earns $55,000/annually.
"For some reason, consrvative whites cannot handle the fact that white girls crave Men of Color."
ReplyDeleteHow do SWPL/hipster whites handle white girls who crave or used to crave men of color? Do they marry such girls and make families with them? Do they instead use the friendship of the girls as props in the never ending conformity quest for validation and status points? Or do they simply ignore the girls - and the inevitable malted milk ball-coloured offspring - leaving them to the tender mercies of government directed, taxpayer-funded social service programs???
cipher
"The reason for segreagation was so that Black Men would not seduce white girls.
ReplyDeleteFor some reason, consrvative whites cannot handle the fact that white girls crave Men of Color."
A few in high school are easily led and wonder wtf they were thinking 10 years later. I have almost never seen a bm/wf couple that wasn't sort of a sick fetish. Seen hardly any where the girl wouldn't be better off as far away from blacks as possible. She gets nothing, and I mean nothing, from such a relationship.
The weird exceptions are exceptions.
Of course parents want to protect their daughters. If you've seen black male teenagers in action in groups of two or more, any sane person would.
Anyway, breeding with blacks will just lower the average even more than it is. The few smart blacks should stick to their own. Whenever I meet a genuinely intelligent black female, 30s, 40s, she's either childless or one child. The dumber they are, the more kids.
Robin Hanson agrees with the middle class black leaders: the worst students must be isolated so the rest can succeed.
ReplyDelete"For some reason, consrvative whites cannot handle the fact that white girls crave Men of Color."
ReplyDeleteWhite flight around the western world over the last 60 years has been driven by millions of gang rapes of little girls.
If the media told the truth no-one would believe it.
.
"why would it be so ridiculous to have a high quality education in an entirely black school?"
You could provide a decent education but you'd need dramatically higher levels of discipline than currently exist and a lot of segregation of the most disruptive to give the rest a chance.
The whites of Tuscaloosa...
ReplyDeletePer the always interesting GreatSchools website, they've moved to Northport.
91 percent white, 18 miles from Tuscaloosa
http://www.greatschools.org/alabama/northport/1448-Northside-High-School/
91 percent white, 6 miles from Tuscaloosa
http://www.greatschools.org/alabama/northport/1455-Huntington-Place-Elementary-School/
Climbing black illegitimacy rate and more ghettoization...
Shouldn't regression to the mean work both ways? That is, if blacks reach 99 percent illegitimate births, shouldn't the (relatively) smartest among those kids eventually figure out that going back to marriage is the right thing to do?
A lot of HBD'ers believe race doesn't matter. They have a strange IQ over-all worldview. This is utterly false.
ReplyDeleteThe Middle East was a melting pot for centuries of the best and brightest - Arabs, Whites, Jews, Northern Africans - and it created a not too impressive part of the world.
Remember, men could have many wives for centuries in this region, and high IQ guys tended to have the most wives. Yet this melting pot created a stagnant region. Race doesn't matter, HBD'ers?
""""Per the always interesting GreatSchools website, they've moved to Northport.""""""
ReplyDeleteSHHHH. Don't have to let the cat out of the bag. Come on. Let them have their privacy and Constitutional Freedom of Association. Last thing they probably want is for too much attention being called to where they are.
"""Shouldn't regression to the mean work both ways? That is, if blacks reach 99 percent illegitimate births, shouldn't the (relatively) smartest among those kids eventually figure out that going back to marriage is the right thing to do?"""""
Not necessarily. As the illegitimacy rates continue to rise among African Americans (and they are, even as we comment) those particular genes that go along WITH illigitimacy rates (e.g. such anti social behavior as high crime as well as lower IQ) these in turn will be passed along to the next and the next an so forth generations.
Bottom line: The talented tenth, fifth, two'th or whatever is having fewer and fewer offspring to pass along their genes while the Deleshas and Rachel Jeantels are having even more children. They already greatly outnumber the talented tenth right now, at this point in time. How will it look in about ten yrs time when they even further greatly outnumber the talented percentage?
Right now, Delesha isn't the best and the brightest that black America can produce from an academic standpoint. BUT the fact that she was highlighted in the Atlantic article demonstrates that she figures prominently when discussing examples of the talented tenth. Right now they could've have found a better academic example but ten yrs from now no such better example will hardly exist.
In ten yrs, Delesha's example will definitely have to be included in the top 4-5% of the TOTAL number of blacks within the talented...whatever the percentage will have decreased to by that time.
She'll figure prominently as an EXAMPLE of the academic and IQ talent that is black America.
"Parents take their kids out of schools that are 70% black? I'd imagine most take their kids out well before that. I'd probably do it at 20%."
ReplyDeleteNah, you wouldn't because the students in the classes with yours would still be 90% white. You wouldn't pull your kid out because there were two or three black kids in each of your child's classes. Most of the black kids would be in the lower non-honors classes with the dumber/poorer whites who are already less likely to leave anyway.
This fits exactly with my recollection of the "integrated" Southern high school I attended 20 years ago. I think our student body was about 30 percent black, but as a practical matter, it was as if there were two separate schools that happened to use the same building. It was possible for white students to go four years without ever sharing a classroom with even a single black student. If you did have a black classmate, it was almost invariably one of the same two or three black kids who were all — this is the best way I know to say this — basically white. That is, they had zero interest in anything remotely related to black culture — not even in the very tenuous, "I-have-to-at-least-pretend-to-relate-to-this-ghetto-stuff" way that is common among upper-class blacks.
OT. Thomas Piketty's 700 pages of graphs are now number 1 on Amazon. When will we get the full Sailer treatment?
ReplyDelete>>Under a different impression than most, Jason Hops mistakenly observed:
ReplyDelete""""A lot of HBD'ers believe race doesn't matter.""""
Now that's a lie. That is a lie. For the most part, and unlike leftist intellectuals such as the late Stephen Jay Gould, HBD'ers have never denied the reality of race or that it does not matter.
"""They have a strange IQ over-all worldview.""""""
Why is it strange to observe something that plays a direct part in nearly everything in life that a person does?
"""This is utterly false.""""""
Based on what, exactly, old sport? Oh, there's more? Do continue.
""""The Middle East was a melting pot for centuries of the best and brightest - Arabs, Whites, Jews, Northern Africans - and it created a not too impressive part of the world.""""""
Re: Arabs, that is somewhat debatable, especially for the first few centuries. Islam inherited many of the civilizations that they conquered by the sword and so directly benefitted from their achievements.
You do know, though, that Jews and Northern Africans are white, right? I mean from a scientific perspective they are classified as white? And YES, before you say it, I know you don't honestly believe that Cleopatra was black. Never said that and no one else believes it.
"""and high IQ guys tended to have the most wives.""""
Based on what, exactly? Your feelings? You also are aware that for the most part, that Jews tended to be monogamous.
"""""Race doesn't matter, HBD'ers?""""
Uh, sport, what color is the sky in your world?
"""""why would it be so ridiculous to have a high quality education in an entirely black school?""""""
ReplyDeleteWell, we do have 60yrs worth of post Brown v Board decision to verify this statement by examining those public schools that remain prominently black (e.g. 80% and higher since 'entirely' is not really possible mathematically).
And what these 60yrs tell us, unfortunately, is not a very pleasant story. Whenever someone attempts to say "But look at Dunbar HS in DC back in the day! It was a prominently black high school during the time of Jim Crow and its academic excellence was 2nd to none!" That's true of Dunbar then. Dunbar now? Well....
Seriously, the various handful of KIPPS schools and a few prominent charter schools have done well for the talented tenth of blacks. But again, as the talented tenth's overall numbers continue to decline thru not producing enough offspring, especially when compared to the likes of Delisha, well.....there it is.
>My husband's niece scored ACT 14. She took 5 years to graduate from nursing school, and now earns $55,000/annually.<
ReplyDeleteAnd people wonder why the country is in decline.
Does she use the word "conversating"? I once lost a job because I laughed innocently, and offered a polite correction, when my black female manager used that word. We ain't want no smartie raciss up in here
As far as I'm concerned, America is getting, and will get, exactly what it deserves. In the long run, all nations do. It's called the moral law.
"A lot of HBD'ers believe race doesn't matter. They have a strange IQ over-all worldview. This is utterly false.
ReplyDeleteThe Middle East was a melting pot for centuries of the best and brightest"
I'm not saying that other non-IQ traits don't matter for economic success, but the Middle East is not a counter-example. Arab states typically have IQs around 85. With the exception of the oil states there Arab nation GDP per capita falls right in line with where you'd expect given their IQ levels.
This isn't to say that 1000 years ago Arabs weren't smarter than Europeans. But much of the rise of European IQs came after the rise of centralized states within the past 500 years.
Suggesting they go to trade school or get a job at the local service station with Cousin Pookie and Ray-Ray can get a teacher tagged as a raciss.
ReplyDeleteRight. Michelle Obama will never forgive the advisor who told her not to apply to Princeton as her test scores weren't good enough.
How could mere test scores reflect the totality of Michelle's awesomeness!
Here is this fabulous girl, a potential doctor or lawyer
ReplyDeleteDoes America need any more lawyers of any race?
1 Corinthians 4:7
For who sees anything different in you? What do you have that you did not receive? If then you received it, why do you boast as if you did not receive it?
Compare to:
1 Corinthians 12
New International Version (NIV)
Concerning Spiritual Gifts
12 Now about the gifts of the Spirit, brothers and sisters, I do not want you to be uninformed. 2 You know that when you were pagans, somehow or other you were influenced and led astray to mute idols. 3 Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.
4 There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit distributes them. 5 There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. 6 There are different kinds of working, but in all of them and in everyone it is the same God at work.
7 Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. 8 To one there is given through the Spirit a message of wisdom, to another a message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, 10 to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues,[a] and to still another the interpretation of tongues.[b] 11 All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he distributes them to each one, just as he determines.
How 'bout some of those miraculous powers?
Also compare to:
"Over the past two decades, researchers have investigated concepts of intelligence in Africa. Among the Luo people in rural Kenya, scientists have found that ideas about intelligence consist of four broad concepts: rieko, which largely corresponds to the Western idea of academic intelligence, but also includes specific skills; luoro, which includes social qualities like respect, responsibility and consideration; paro, or practical thinking; and winjo, or comprehension. Only one of the four--rieko--is correlated with traditional Western measures of intelligence."
//////////////////
Melissa Dent -- black or white?
D'Leisha Dent -- black or white?
Barbara Jordan -- black or white?
Caitlin Jordan -- black or white?
Also, Morgan Jordan -- male or female?
>>Harry Baldwin said...
ReplyDelete""""Suggesting they go to trade school or get a job at the local service station with Cousin Pookie and Ray-Ray can get a teacher tagged as a raciss.
Right. Michelle Obama will never forgive the advisor who told her not to apply to Princeton as her test scores weren't good enough."""""
And the Atlantic author of the article should have interviewed Michelle Obama for the 60th Brown v Board anniversary story. She most likely would have granted the interview to share her personal thoughts on how she was directly a victim of institutional racism, even though she did attend and graduate from Princeton.
At the very least, she could have been part of the story a la "Ms. First Lady, as we are now approaching the sixtieth anniversary of Brown v Board of Education, do you believe that American public schools have become more or less racist since that time? Also, how much improvement do you believe has been made during this time?"
Her answers to these and other questions would be most revealing and serve as a microcosm of the current administration as a whole.
>>David Davenport observed:
ReplyDelete""""Caitlin Jordan -- black or white?""""
WHITE. In the 2005 book Freakonomics, there is a chapter that discusses various names that both black and white parents have given their children over time going back to the 60's.
There is also a useful alphabetical list of boys and girls names AND the highest level of education that the parents achieved.
So for example, if a boy was named Peter, the parents achieved a fairly high level of education, say, 12th grade education or early college.
Caitlin, for example, was indeed mentioned and clearly marked as a white girls name. Much the way Jennifer is (granted, examples can be found but for the most part).
Example: Who here has ever met a white person with the name LaSharquantius? Tyronarus? Demartreetus?
Didn't think so.
But if we use it the other way, THAT is how rare right nowadays that a black girl of Millennial or Gen, X is going around with the names of Kelly or Katherine.
The Iron Law of development is:
ReplyDeleteAgruculture --> Manufacturing --> Services.
I disagree with that. All services and little or no manufacturing or agriculture is the economy of the Bos-NY-Philly-Wash. megacity.
... A degenerative progression instead of a virtuous progression.
The Iron Law of imperial city concentration and decay.
I disagree as well. Germany and Japan are highly developed and maintain large manufacturing sectors. For that matter, so do we, though I think our manufacturing employs a much smaller % of our population.
DeleteKelly or Katherine
ReplyDeleteKelly -> another unisex white person name nowadays.
Answer: "Is it all that awful for 90 IQ black students to get to grow up feeling superior to 80 IQ black classmates rather than feeling inferior to 100 IQ white classmates?"
ReplyDeleteQuestion: "Courage to speak truthfully circa 2000?"
Yeah, my first thought was the DMV lady. She may need community college courses to perfect that head shake that the sistas do so well.
ReplyDeleteGiven the diminished state of our higher ed system, how is someone a three-time state champion shot putter and NOT have some college scholarship offers?
Svigor--"Words often have several meanings, you should try and look up "superior" and "inferior" and refresh your working knowledge."
ReplyDeleteListen, some of the posters here thoroughly believe that IQ is THE only way to measure intelligence, and they state very clearly that one group, as a result of the scores, is superior and one group is inferior, not from a testing perspective, but from a racial perspective. I properly applied the terms. Guilt much?
I completely disagree that IQ is the only way to measure intelligence, first because it is already difficult to define what is intelligence. As I said in my previous comment, in my opinion, true intelligence is the ability to find the truth and therefore reality, there is no more striking proof of a person's ability to demonstrate its logical capability. And as is widely observed by most hbd'ers, most people with higher intelligences, demonstrated so far, are unable to understand the world around them.
ReplyDeleteAs I have suggested, and I believe that my proposal is of vital importance to this debate. I live and I am including the son of a couple with high technical or high iq intelligence. My father's side of the family is especially full of senior technical IQs, most of them are successful and are employed in white-collar professions. However, the vast majority of them are normal people, in fact, they are super normal. This seems to be the stereotype found among doctors, engineers, lawyers and others occupational niches that require high iq. Most of these people are far from geniuses.
It makes me think of two glaring examples of capacity, Jon Von Neumann, who is revered by many cognitive experts as the smartest ever born.
And the most higher iq, professionally proven in my country, Brazil. Rock singer Roger of the Band '' Ultraje a rigor''. This man scored above 170 when tested. Instead, Von Neumann, as I recall, scored only 125. Through HBD logic, Von Neumann was to be less intelligent than Roger, because as I also remember having ever read,'' people with 170 iq are so different (ie mean higher cognitively) that people with 120 iq, how 120 IQ people are different than 90 IQ people''.
However, while Roger has produced far less culturally than was expected by his super ultra mega master intelligence, Von Neumann, without explanatory.
The crux of what I get. Anomalous brains also produce genius. It is expected that their cognitive dispositions are made in a different way compared to called normal brain or standard. The iq seeks to serve as a cognitive signature of size, cranial volume, morphology and distribution of cognitively specific parts of the brain. The first point to understand the brain of exceptionally talented is precisely understand how the morphology and distribution of these cognitive functions.
IQ tests measure artificially the human intellect, the same way when we see New York the airplane window.
But any discussion along these lines is verboten, so the result is that the elephant in the room is ignored and we spend endless time and money on witch doctor solutions....
ReplyDeleteIt's educational alchemy.
ReplyDeleteIdle Spectator:"You clearly missed it the first time. For your benefit--The issue I have is when racialists, or better known as "civilized savages" exclusively focus on this data point to tout intellectual superiority."
Well, that's because it does demonstrate intellectual superiority...
Idle Spectator:"Excellent! Then you have just illustrated how intelligence manifests itself for a wide range of skills."
No, I have just demonstrated that I had a relative who taught me wilderness survival and that I read a lot. Neither of those abilities is strongly associated with having a high IQ.
Idle Spectator:" You know, like building a plane,"
I'm not smart enough to build a plane.
Idle Spectator:" writing a symphony, etc."
I'm not smart enough to write a symphony.
Idle Spectator:"Perhaps you are unfamiliar with Howard Gardner’s Model, which focuses on seven different types of intelligence."
I am. It's a joke. Try reading THE BELL CURVE as a necessary corrective.
Idle Spectator:"And you would be sadly mistaken. Social intelligence--the capacity to effectively negotiate complex social relationships and environments."
Again, No. "Social intelligence" (a true misnomer) has nothing to do with intelligence.
Idle Spectator:"This specific type is measured in particular by Fortune 500 Companies."
Which simply demonstrates the fact that high intelligence is not the only measure of human worth. An Aspie high IQ executive will not be very effective at managing his employees.
Idle Spectator:"Except that she was in Girl Scouts. Nice try."
MMMM, based on the Girl Scouts that I knew, that's not saying much. Most of them were quite useless when it came to coping with genuine wilderness.
Idle Spectator:"I didn’t define them, researchers did. By all means, call them up and tell them they are “wrong”."
Sadly, modern anthropology rejects concepts like truth and error. That's one of the reasons why it is not a science.
How to make stop-and-frisk more palatable.
ReplyDeleteCall it affirmative inspection.
Better yet: affirmative interaction. Of course, that's a term that could be applied to a lot of things.
"Svigor said...
ReplyDeleteAFAIK freedom of association has never really been interpreted that way. It's always been about the right to gather in numbers to protest, vote, etc. I'd be happy to be wrong here, but from what I gather, there's pretty much zero legal precedent for what normal people would consider the freedom of association: the right to sell your home to whomever you wish, for whatever reasons, the right to hire and fire whomever you wish, for whatever reasons, the right to dispose of your property as you wish (who to server with your business, etc.), for whatever reasons, etc."
I don't know if it was interpereted that way by the courts, as the matter seldom came to thier attention. But that interperetation was quite common within society up until the 1950s or 60s. Racial convenants were quite commonly used to maintain the racial makeup of neighborhoods. Employers had wide discretion as to whom they could hire and fire. It is hard for people nowadays to appreciate the degree to which one was left alone by the government back then.
Never forget that the black civil rights hustlers like Jessie Jackson and Al Sharpton would never send their kids to the kinds of schools they insist we should be required to send our kids too.
ReplyDeleteI'm sure you know the implications of all this but maybe you are reluctant to be candid. I have less to lose.
ReplyDeleteThe problem as I see it is that that whole Martin Luther King experiment with integration was simply a failure. If we were wise we would revert to the status quo ante.
But how can we do that? We have canonized King. We have temples built to him and his statues line our capitol. Every city in the nation has a street named after him. Usually - as Chris Rock says - these streets are terribly dangerous places and should be avoided if you want to live, but the intention was originally positive.
Last weekend 45 people (all black) were shot in Chicago. This should tells us that our current policies have failed but apparently it isn't enough yet. We still want to worship Saint Martin and his dream of integration. We are stuck.
I signed up for 23andme. Their official website only lists about three SNPs that effect IQ. But there are more than a hundred you can locate in the Prometheus adjunct utility. None of them alone contribute much to the explained variance. But it seems certain that some cluster of these SNPs associated with African ancestry and low IQ will soon emerge.
Black people don't do well in school because they possess the wrong pattern of these IQ relevant SNPs. And soon we should know exactly which ones.
We are close to understanding black school underperformance in genetic terms but we are very far from accepting it in social terms. Even today the media will present an 'intellectual' who will assure everyone that 'race is just a social construct'. Which raise the question as to how simple lead bullets in Chicago can understand social constructs.
The main advantage of classroom education after the simple economic one - is the opportunity for the kids to measure themselves against each other. For black kids this must be a terrible ordeal. When the teacher asks the class for a date or the name of an ancient conqueror, the black kids will see that it's always a sea of white hands that rise. A black kid in a class of whites will learn about daily humiliation. The kindest thing would be to separate the races ASAP.
Albertosaurus
"I'm currently searching for jobs throughout the country: my family's percentage breakpoint is around 15% (and preferably 10% or less). We can afford to be choosy."
ReplyDeleteHaving had experience sending my children to majority black schools-- and bear in mind, these were supposedly middle class blacks-- I would never send my children to a school that was even 10% black. It would have to be under that benchmark, maybe in the 5% range. To put it bluntly, you don't want more than 1 or 2 black children in any given classroom.
Even among middle class blacks there is just too much dysfunction, horrible behavior, disrespect for authority, and academic struggle such that it destroys the school experience for the other children.
My children now attend a school that has zero-2 black children in each classroom. It's about 70% white, 20% asian, the rest black and hispanic. The moment that ratio changes we're gone. I learned the hard way.
>>David Pinsen said:
ReplyDelete""""Germany and Japan are highly developed and maintain large manufacturing sectors.""""""
Japan, btw, has very low rates of immigration. Germany over last decade or so has been slowly restricting their immigration level as well.
Generally speaking, large manufacturing sectors should be comprised of a nation's native born population and not hired from among the illegals.
"""For that matter, so do we,"""""
NO, we don't. Not anywhere close as a percentage of the total US population, specially compared to the post war era of 1945-1973.
We don't come close since NAFTA, millions upon millions upon millions of manufacturing jobs have been outsourced. (e.g. to China, Mexico, etc)
""""though I think our manufacturing employs a much smaller % of our population.""""
More US working in field of education as total percentage of US adults than all manufacturing sector combined. This is not a healthy sign for things to come. That is not how an industrialized nation maintains its competitive edge. Not good at all.
QED
OH! Yes, Kelly can be unisex but for whites. Kelly, Katherine, Jennifer, these are white names.
I think Kelly has been mostly a girl's name for a few decades. Kinda like how Ashley turned from a boy's name to almost exclusively girl's name.
ReplyDeleteI'm in my 50's and my black female acquaintances of similar age have uni-racial names like Lisa, Bev, Holly, even a Courtney. They all have good jobs or are well-married, but the I bet the current plethora of weird black names came into being after the racial struggles of the sixties.
Well, in the olden days Blacks did best in places like San Diego with low black populations except a few ghettos in the city of San Diego. Housing has gotten more expensive there which makes it hard for blacks but black income there is higher than Hispanic income.
ReplyDeletePat wrote:
ReplyDelete"I signed up for 23andme. Their official website only lists about three SNPs that effect IQ. But there are more than a hundred you can locate in the Prometheus adjunct utility. None of them alone contribute much to the explained variance. But it seems certain that some cluster of these SNPs associated with African ancestry and low IQ will soon emerge"
The flip side of looking for genes that are associated with high intelligence, the identification of genes associated with low intelligence.
I think a lot of people here just aren't thinking things through enough, concerning the implications of this kind of thing.
My question is what exactly stops Gattaca from becoming reality? Heck you could implement it now, and it is only going to become more exact.
So what happens if the course of your life is written before you were born, at least as far as society deems it necessary to invest in your education and the opportunities presented? And I really can't understand how people are so cavalier about the whole thing. What happens if one of the brilliant posters here "pops out a dud" (gotta do a thorough screening on the wifey) and the kid "reverts to the mean?" Care to think about how the kid's future will work out?
I repeat what stops it besides custom and public outrage (like that has put the brakes on immigration or stopped any recent wars from happening).
An interesting sidenote is when football teams are recruiting (at least down South) they are really interested in a kid's growth potential. They'll look at a kids wrists, eyeball his family. It's not as obtrusive as it sounds, but it is a lot like rating livestock.
Because some 6'4" 200 pound athletic kids you can beef up into a defensive end, and some you can't. And some 6'5" athletic 245 pound offensive linemen are going to be able to grow into 315 pound offensive tackles, and some aren't. And it is your job if you guess wrong too many times.
To Anonymous 4/22/14 7:03 a.m.
ReplyDelete“Well, that's because it does demonstrate intellectual superiority...”
As one data point. As I stated correctly, there are other means to determine a person’s intelligence. Why do you foolishly insist otherwise?
“No, I have just demonstrated that I had a relative who taught me wilderness survival and that I read a lot. Neither of those abilities is strongly associated with having a high IQ.”
I never said that high IQ and wilderness survival are related. Strawman much?
You demonstrated the skills of wilderness survival based on your ability to learn from direct experience and from text. That acumen can then be applied to other novel situations. That is, you were able to take the knowledge and use it appropriately at the particular time. Wilderness skills are a key component of naturalistic intelligence.
“An Aspie high IQ executive will not be very effective at managing his employees.”
Irrelevant and immaterial. You simply avoided the fact that I offered specific evidence that lends credibility and validity to social intelligence. You’re a Bell Curve acolyte, I get it.
“based on the Girl Scouts that I knew, that's not saying much.”
Overgeneralization on your part. Just because you had experience with Girl Scouts who had difficulties with handling themselves in the wild does NOT mean that they are universally deficient in this area. Try using your intelligence next time :)
“Again, No. "Social intelligence" (a true misnomer) has nothing to do with intelligence.”
Disagree all you want and wish it all away, but the fact remains that “social intelligence” along with alternative theories on intelligence have solid evidence and research behind them.
“I am. It's a joke. Try reading THE BELL CURVE as a necessary corrective.”
Please note that TBC is a definitive work with solid research and legitimate claims...but it is NOT the end all and be all. Like the climate apologist or denier, like the racialist or racist, you fall within the same category of person who outright focuses only on one theory as being definitive, contrary evidence be damned. There is a word for you...confirmation bias.
"Perhaps the most troubling aspect of The Bell Curve from an intellectual standpoint is its authors' uncritical approach to statistical correlations. One of the first things taught in introductory statistics is that correlation is not causation. It is also one for the first things forgotten and one of the most widely ignored facts in public policy research. The statistical term "multicollinearity," dealing with spurious correlation, appears only once in this massive book. Multicollinearity refers to the fact that many variables are highly correlated with one another, so that it is very easy to believe that a certain result comes from variable A, when in fact it is due to variable Z, with which A happens to be correlated. In real life, innumerable factors go together."
--Sowell, Thomas. "Ethnicity and IQ" pp70-79 IN: The Bell Curve Wars: Race, Intelligence, and the Future of America. 1996. ed Steven Fraser
“Sadly, modern anthropology rejects concepts like truth and error. That's one of the reasons why it is not a science.”
Debatable, Cochise.
Kelly used to be a man's name:
ReplyDeleteClarence “Kelly” Johnson: Architect of the Air · Lockheed ...
www.lockheedmartin.com/us/100years/.../johnson.html
Lockheed Martin
The young engineer's name was Clarence Johnson, but ever since he'd trounced a local bully in grade school, he went by the more defiant nickname: “Kelly,” ...
>>The Anti-IQ Mismeasure of Man, aka Steven Jay Gould's living voice, Idle Spectator said...
ReplyDelete""""As one data point.""""
NO, as the main data point. Do try and attempt to get these things correct. It appears as if you'd much rather prefer that subjective aspects on the periphery were more directly related to intelligence, when in fact no conclusive studies have demonstrated that they have as yet, so it's really subjective opinion-making.
""""As I stated correctly, there are other means to determine a person’s intelligence."""
All you've stated so far is YOUR PERSONAL OPINION. Keep in mind that the other side have in fact presented studies and scientific data to back up their side of the case. Perhaps if you did so it would help make you appear more credible on the issue. That would of course, be asking quite a bit.
Scientist and now NYT Science writer Nicholas Wade's latest book delves into this topic at some length.
"""Why do you foolishly insist otherwise?"""""
And why do YOU naively insist that, based on subjectivism, not objective FACT that your side (or rather, the side that you appear to favor, i.e., that IQ isn't nearly as all important in the world at large as HBD makes it sound out to be.)
>>>Still Idle Spectator channeling Stephen Jay Gould's theories, cont'd:
ReplyDelete""" Wilderness skills are a key component of naturalistic intelligence."""""
AHA! Okay, here. Right there what you just said. THAT is an example of the other side where anything can subjectively labeled as intelligence. If nearly everything can be labeled (in actuality it is mislabeling) as part of overall intelligence, than next to nothing is in actual fact defined as intelligence.
There is no such thing as a "sports" intelligence; a "music" intelligence; a "walking" intelligence; or even a "comedy/cracking jokes on stage" intelligence.
Malcolm! Malcolm Gladwell, were are you? Paging Malcolm Gladwell! One of your disciples is here!
""""You simply avoided the fact that I offered specific evidence that lends credibility and validity to social intelligence."""""""
Only you appear to think so. You're entitled to your own opinions, but not to your own facts.
""""""You’re a Bell Curve acolyte, I get it. """""
And you are a Stephen Jay Gould disciple and Malcolm Gladwell devotee, oh we do understand. Everything is a component of intelligence and thus nothing is.
I suppose you don't mention Arthur Jensens studies on intelligence since that was waaaay back before even the first Earth Day.
Probably wouldn't like the author of the Descent of Man either, JUST KIDDING! No one said you think that Evolutionary development among humans in all major forms (body; brain; etc) was just a hoax. Come on now, dude.
"""""he fact remains that “social intelligence” along with alternative theories on intelligence have solid evidence and research behind them."""""
AGAIN, you're not entitled to your own facts. Social intelligence is subjective.
OH, I'm sorry. You mean alternative theories on intelligence a la Arthur Jensen, The Bell Curve, Nicholas Wade's new book, etc. That's what you're referring to?
Or not.
""""Please note that TBC is a definitive work with solid research and legitimate claims...but it is NOT the end all and be all."""""""
And neither is your subjective labeling of every single type of trait as part of intelligence. Sorry, but Stephen Jay Gould's the Mismeasure of Man didn't have the solid research behind it.
But you really do channel his ghost very well, have to say. Did you have a seance and ask him how to respond to all naysayers and doubters re: Intelligence?
""""""who outright focuses only on one theory as being definitive, contrary evidence be damned. There is a word for you...confirmation bias.""""""
Again, old sport, look in the mirror, look in the mirror to behold thy own precious bias. Gould himself would be most proud of thee.
Uh, you do understand at some level WHY Thomas Sowell in particular would have a major problem endorsing most of the conclusions outlined in TBC?
You don't? Seriously? Really? It's not fairly clear? I mean, yes, he does write vs Affirmative Action since that does directly affect his credibility but to ask him to endorse TBC which is basically calling his own people group....shall we say....not all that.
Come on. Talk about bias on his part and that's usually not like him.
Know what? You should well heed the late economist Karl Popper's admonition, since you fit it so well.
"The wrong view of science constantly betrays itself in the desire to be right." (at the omission of all relevant data that could potentially refute it).
But nice try, sport. Nice try.
You have a nice day.
To Anonymous 6:51 4/22/14
ReplyDelete“NO, as the main data point.”
No, as a data point. Get it correct, chap.
“...when in fact no conclusive studies have demonstrated that they have as yet, so it's really subjective opinion-making.”
Exactly! Intelligence theory scholars are still struggling with definitions and explanations. Your boyzzz, Herrnstein and Murray, are NO different. Competing researchers outline elements of what might serve as building blocks for the field, but the arguments advanced tend to contradict one another or stress sharply differing approaches without necessarily explaining why one approach is superior to another.
“All you've stated so far is YOUR PERSONAL OPINION.”
Wow, two for two. You believing that “The Bell Curve” is THE definitive work in the field of intelligence, and that seemingly all other works that oppose their findings are severely flawed in their analysis? Personal opinion.
“Keep in mind that the other side have in fact presented studies and scientific data to back up their side of the case.”
Gee, you think? So when I provided a specific example, you simply scoffed at it. You have your mind made up already, I get it.
“And why do YOU naively insist that, based on subjectivism, not objective FACT that your side.”
False characterization--the competing theories from YOUR point of view, and that of those who oppose them, are subjective. You have assumed that any and all intelligence theories other than The Bell Curve are utterly meaningless. No problem if you are biased, just be honest about it.
“If nearly everything can be labeled (in actuality it is mislabeling) as part of overall intelligence, than next to nothing is in actual fact defined as intelligence.”
That is the argument made by The Bell Curve acolytes. Confirmation bias personified. Exactly why there are fundamental disagreements in this field.
“There is no such thing as a "sports" intelligence; a "music" intelligence; a "walking" intelligence; or even a "comedy/cracking jokes on stage" intelligence.”
As you correctly stated, YOUR opinion. Those who argued to the contrary have their own facts, their own research, their own conclusions...that YOU vehemently disagree with.
What do YOU have other than hand-waving?
“And you are a Stephen Jay Gould disciple and Malcolm Gladwell devotee, oh we do understand.”
Not quite. I am disciple of keeping people honest. It seems you believe Jensen and Murray are beyond reproach, or that those researchers who believe in alternative interpretations of what is intelligence are "subjective".
There is no getting into your thick skull that maybe, perhaps, it is quite possible their theories have holes, that their conclusions may be (gasp) biased. All part of the simmering “science” wars that has been going on for the past four decades.
The measure of a person is to look inward, see past their own prejudices, and honestly evaluate things. At least I am able to recognize that The Bell Curve, for all of its faults, has merit in a number of different areas. Apparently, you are unwilling or incapable of looking deeply into TBC own problems.
“Sorry, but Stephen Jay Gould's the Mismeasure of Man didn't have the solid research behind it.”
Opinion.
"AGAIN, you're not entitled to your own facts. Social intelligence is subjective.”
Hand-waving.
“Uh, you do understand at some level WHY Thomas Sowell in particular would have a major problem endorsing most of the conclusions outlined in TBC?”
Doh, you do comprehend WHY Bell Curve sodomites would put forth a concerted effort to discredit any and all criticisms?
As Vox Day succinctly puts it--“Science fetishists have long ignored the fundamental flaw in the system of modern science; it is only as reliable as the moral character of the scientists involved permits.”
Perhaps you ought to take Popper’s advice to heart.
anon2214,
ReplyDelete"True it would feel like no favor to send her to Africa now, but if she had been born there she'd have been fine. And, if sent now, her future kids would fit right in. The most important things in life aren't money."
You missed my point. I said that there are surely some tasks you yourself would fail at no matter how hard or how long you tried or however badly you desired success. My question was should you therefore be "sent" somewhere on the basis of this failure? If it's not a standard you'd wish to be applied to you then you shouldn't apply it to others.
Idle Spectator,
ReplyDelete"Are you able to create a well-designed shelter using nothing but your wits and the environment around you in a specified time frame?
Are you able to present hundreds of stories that clearly detail the history of a group of people?
If you can't, you're pretty stupid."
But if your people can't do calculus, program computers or design space shuttles they're not stupid at all. They are absolutely, totally, 100% equal - and anyone who doubts it must be hounded out of polite society, fired from his job and perhaps even thrown in jail.
Idle Spectator said...
ReplyDelete"""" No, as a data point. Get it correct, chap.""""
I did. Take it up with Jensen, TBC, AND Derbyshire, Wade, Richwine. You see, folks can sit around for ages and debate, discuss, dissect. Eventually, a consensus will be reached.
It is which consensus that is to be the official standard of learning in the public realm which in turn can influence public policy.
“...when in fact no conclusive studies have demonstrated that they have as yet, so it's really subjective opinion-making.”
""""Exactly!"""""
Thank you! You agree with me! I appreciate it, bro., since I was referring to your side.
Oh, you're still rabbiting on? Go ahead. Finish up.
"""Intelligence theory scholars are still struggling with definitions and explanations.""""""
Yes, for the disciples of erroneous nature Franz Boas, Margaret Mead, Ruth Benedict, intelligence is much rather like a mist: nebulous, elusive, cloudy, and can't quite ever be properly ascertained.
""""Your boyzzz, Herrnstein and Murray, are NO different.""""
TBC puts forth research and data that, as of yet, have not been refuted. Oh, they've been ad-hominened and shouted down and called the dreaded "r" word. Before his weighty Dreams tome, the President wrote an entire article or two lambasting and denouncing it.
But 20 yrs on it still hasn't been fully critiqued and refuted. Maybe, the opposing side just doesnt quite have the intellectual goods to get the job done vs it.
Geez, you're still not done with your point? Continue, but it'd better be good!
""""Competing researchers outline elements of what might serve as building blocks for the field, but the arguments advanced tend to contradict one another or stress sharply differing approaches without necessarily explaining why one approach is superior to another.''""""
ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ. Gobbledygook. Thought there was an actual point and not pontification going on.
"""You believing that “The Bell Curve” is THE definitive work in the field of intelligence, and that seemingly all other works that oppose their findings are severely flawed in their analysis?""""
Nope. This is called projection. TBC is a major work, unquestionably. Obviously other studies were going on and continue to this day in the field of intelligence.
But you know, when an experiment in science in conducted over and over with similar results eventually it goes from being a hypothesis to a theory and thus is considered scientific.....fact, until a different hypothesis comes along and is tested and experimented and the findings conclusively demonstrate that the new theory proves that the old one is in doubt.
THAT is what work such as TBC and others have demonstrated. Now, when another hypothesis is tested and can 'prove' that their findings conclusively refute HBD, then they'll have the floor and their theory will become the standard.
'"""Gee, you think?""""""
Wow, do you? Doesn't sound like it, with all that rabbiting on and on.
""""So when I provided a specific example, you simply scoffed at it. You have your mind made up already, """
Legitimate examples yes, a subjective example, no way. Look, if you have a bias in defending the low IQs of some people groups, just come out and say so. It's okay. HBDers are quite nice folks and won't snap at you. Go ahead, tell us what you're really thinking.
>>Idle Spectator (cont'd)
ReplyDelete""""I get it.""""""
Perhaps in your mind you do, no doubt.
“And why do YOU naively insist that, based on subjectivism, not objective FACT that your side.”
False characterization--the competing theories from YOUR point of view, and that of those who oppose them, are subjective.
And we turn it around and its on you. Wait, is this science or philosophy of science which can include logic, rhetoric, and of course the old fashioned:
"I know you are, but what am I?"
Is that what you've been doing here? Oh, you!
""""You have assumed that any and all intelligence theories other than The Bell Curve are utterly meaningless.""""""
Au contraire. I do submit that not all theories on intelligence are as fully developed and are more subjectively based. Now, some might say that means that they need further testing. Perhaps so. But you know, after several thousand tests and research and if the same point keeps coming up, well then eventually, the point that keeps coming up is consistent and is then out of hypothesis realm and is more reliable and upgraded to theory.
""" That is the argument made by The Bell Curve acolytes.""""
Well then in that respect, they're actually correct. Eventually, in lieu of actual objective evidence have to go with the theory and body of research has facts behind it.
""""Exactly why there are fundamental disagreements in this field."""""
No, that's not it entirely. Human nature also being what it is, there is political motivations and power based struggles behind it. Various interest groups have some motivations for seeing that their side carries the day even if they don't have the actual research behind their hypotheses.
""""Those who argued to the contrary have their own facts, their own research, their own conclusions...that YOU vehemently disagree with.""
Know what? I daresay that you would very much think to debate with Derbyshire and/or Nicholas Wade. OH! Or Steve himself as he has written copious amounts on this particular topic over the yrs.
""""I am disciple of keeping people honest.""""
Then you should use objective facts and not passing off opinions.
>>Idle Spectator: (cont'd)
ReplyDelete"""It seems you believe Jensen and Murray are beyond reproach, or that those researchers who believe in alternative interpretations of what is intelligence are "subjective"."""""
Well, there some crackpots out there who claim they can "refute" the theories of Einstein's, Darwins, etc. but they don't offer much objective evidence. Credible and legitimate interpretations of intelligence, yes. Bogus subjectivism with a political or different agenda at work, no.
Its much the same reason that I don't (perhaps you do) regard Intelligent Design as a legitimate scientific example of alternative explanations to naturalism, darwinism, etc.
""""There is no getting into your thick skull that maybe, perhaps, it is quite possible their theories have holes, that their conclusions may be (gasp) biased.""""
A theory is the scientific standard until it is supplanted by another one with better objective evidence. Until it is presented...
"""All part of the simmering “science” wars that has been going on for the past four decades.""""
In this case, unfortunately, most of it is political and sadly a bit race tinged. Who Whom will best be served if a certain theory carries the day.
""""The measure of a person is to look inward, see past their own prejudices, and honestly evaluate things.""""
ZZZZZZ. Save it for the stump speech and do be sure to add "My fellow Americans" like a good boy now.
"""""At least I am able to recognize that The Bell Curve, for all of its faults, has merit in a number of different areas.""""
Spoken as true poster child of the competing hypothesis a la SWPL. Good job, and bully!
Seriously, do remember to add "My fellow Americans" when using this as your stump speech.
""""Apparently, you are unwilling or incapable of looking deeply into TBC own problems.""""
I recognize objective legitimate research and not subjectivism. That has been the main stigma about the nurture side of the debate, and that is its early founders (boaz, mead, benedict, etc) were all non-scientists and they had a personal motive of attempting to disprove the Eugenics theories of the time.
"""Opinion.""""
No, fact. Take it up with Steve who has documented this fact if you don't agree.
"""Hand-waving.""""
I know you are, but what am I. I know you are, but what am I.
Your turn!
"""" Doh, you do comprehend WHY Bell Curve sodomites"""""
Homophobic smear. Bernstein is dead (though he wasn't gay) and Charles Murray is also married to a woman, no less.
But again, re: Sowell, some motives are clearly in view. On both sides, I will concede. Your turn now to concede, go ahead. Unfortunately, most of the bias and motives are coming from the subjective side contra TBC. But credit again, YOU did at least not quote Barack Obama's articles claiming that TBC wasn't good. And he too has a motive.
""""it is only as reliable as the moral character of the scientists involved permits.”""""
Actually this sounds like Dr Seuss' the Lorax. How about, test and test and then test again, and when a consensus on your data is in sight, test again. And when a consensus finally arrives. Present it for peer review. And then test some more and then the scientific community arrives at its decision.
No, sport, Popper's all yours. As a Gouldian disciple, he's allll yours.
Anony 10:22 p.m. 4/22/14
ReplyDelete“Thank you! You agree with me! I appreciate it, bro., since I was referring to your side.”
You are being disingenuous. I wasn’t acknowledging the “superiority” or "exclusivity" of your side, just correctly stating that you are focusing only on those individuals who fit YOUR world view. Confirmation bias much?
“It is which consensus that is to be the official standard of learning in the public realm which in turn can influence public policy.”
And to my point that you repeatedly ignore is that there is a decidedly lack of consensus in the intelligence community, despite your effort to tout TBC as the "gold standard".
“Yes, for the disciples of erroneous nature...”
And for the Jensen’s, TBC’s, Derbyshires, etc. of the world as well.
“But 20 yrs on it still hasn't been fully critiqued and refuted.”
Wow, you are that FAR gone. A cursory Google search comes up with a variety of critiques and analysis. Yet, more hand-waving on your part. Pathetic, really.
“Now, when another hypothesis is tested and can 'prove' that their findings conclusively refute HBD, then they'll have the floor and their theory will become the standard.”
And now we are getting to the heart of the matter. There have been other scientists who have conducted a myriad of studies and have called into serious question the findings of TBC, yet their adherents continually to outright dismiss their conclusions. That is not science.
“Legitimate examples yes, a subjective example, no way.”
Pavlov must be your best friend.
“ Look, if you have a bias in defending the low IQs of some people groups, just come out and say so.”
I am merely questioning your insistence there is only ONE intelligence theory that everyone ought to go by.
“Wait, is this science or philosophy of science which can include logic, rhetoric, and of course the old fashioned...”
I was just about to say the same thing.
“But you know, after several thousand tests and research and if the same point keeps coming up...”
Thank you for agreeing that the competing theories have similarly undergone this process!
“Eventually, in lieu of actual objective evidence have to go with the theory and body of research has facts behind it.”
Exactly why theories other than TBC have been properly vetted.
“Human nature also being what it is, there is political motivations and power based struggles behind it.”
You hit the nail on the head. TBC is NOT immune to this phenomenon; its foundation also rests on a desired outcome.
“Then you should use objective facts and not passing off opinions.”
Likewise, I’m sure.
“A theory is the scientific standard until it is supplanted by another one with better objective evidence. Until it is presented...”
There are MANY competing theories, not simply “THE ONE”, in the field of intelligence. That is why its adherents work to refute and contradict one another’s research.
“In this case, unfortunately, most of it is political and sadly a bit race tinged.”
We have covered this point already. Well, at least I have...
“Save it for the stump speech and do be sure to add "My fellow Americans" like a good boy now.”
Exactly how an acolyte responds.
“Unfortunately, most of the bias and motives are coming from the subjective side contra TBC.”
Project much?
“Homophobic smear.”
Sensitive, aren’t we?
“How about, test and test and then test again, and when a consensus on your data is in sight, test again. And when a consensus finally arrives. Present it for peer review. And then test some more and then the scientific community arrives at its decision.”
And we are back at the starting point. The scientific community has YET to arrive at a DEFINITIVE decision regarding the nature and scope intelligence. That is why this field has continued to delve deeper into the existing theories.
Keep your hamster wheel spinning!
"It seems you believe Jensen and Murray are beyond reproach, or that those researchers who believe in alternative interpretations of what is intelligence are "subjective"."
ReplyDeleteYes, if only academics could be more open-minded about it. As it, they are staunch hereditarians, dismissive of challenges to their belief system. Innocent undergrads get Jensen and Murray pounded into their skulls from day one until they graduate. They're never given the opportunity to reflect on alternative viewpoints.
"Wow, you are that FAR gone. A cursory Google search comes up with a variety of critiques and analysis. Yet, more hand-waving on your part. Pathetic, really."
ReplyDeleteYes, he really is a caveman, isn't he. TBC has been completely demolished. In the wake of the critiques instructors quickly realized the errors of their teaching methods, applied the findings of the new research, and since then it's become commonplace for students who were once erroneously regarded as morons in grade school to complete PhD's in math and science or take charge of multinational corporations.
What is interesting is that San Antonio a city not bad for Mexicans lower poverty than usual around 19 percent has a lot of Mexican and white sections. Houston is another with Mexican, white and black sections and now a few more Asian areas with whites and others. Houston is closer overall to a Los Angeles type of inequality.
ReplyDelete>> Idle Spectator said...
ReplyDelete"""You are being disingenuous."""
I know you are, but what am I?
"""I wasn’t acknowledging the “superiority” or "exclusivity" of your side, just correctly stating that you are focusing only on those individuals who fit YOUR world view."""""
As do you.
"""Confirmation bias much?""""
Another subjective smear as in: I know you are, but what am !?
""""And to my point that you repeatedly ignore is that there is a decidedly lack of consensus in the intelligence community, despite your effort to tout TBC as the "gold standard"."""""
An alleged lack of full consensus.
""""A cursory Google search comes up with a variety of critiques and analysis."""""
Most based in agenda driven, such as Barack Obama, Thomas Sowell, etc. Non scientific opinions do not carry weight.
You personally are not a scientist, are you now? Because if you feel that strongly about this issue, perhaps you should write a scientific critique of TBC and submit it to Science, or Nature, or even perhaps Psychology Today.
"""And now we are getting to the heart of the matter."""""
There have been other scientists who have conducted a myriad of studies and have called into serious question the findings of TBC, yet their adherents continually to outright dismiss their conclusions. That is not science.
Depends. IF scientists are dismissing the critques as motive/agenda driven and not scientifc.
After all, the same thing can be said regarding the opposite side. TBC was in part written as a response to the nurture view of intelligence, where anything and everything is simply 'redefined' as, voila!, intelligence.
""""You are being disingenuous. I wasn’t acknowledging the “superiority” or "exclusivity" of your side, just correctly stating that you are focusing only on those individuals who fit YOUR world view. Confirmation bias much?""""
And you are not? Every time we quote from authority we're making a choice of which side to bolster our claims. Sad but true. Now, if we were to actually quote from all sides of the spectrum equally. It would make for interesting speculation.
Do you really need to read The Bell Curve to notice that blacks have significantly lower average IQ's than the other races? You just need functional eyes and ears to make the observation...
ReplyDeleteThe big huge scientific experiment known as history demonstrates the distinct lack of achievement and organization by blacks, (long before Murray or Hernstein were even born)
CamCama--"Do you really need to read The Bell Curve to notice that blacks have significantly lower average IQ's than the other races? You just need functional eyes and ears to make the observation...The big huge scientific experiment known as history demonstrates the distinct lack of achievement and organization by blacks."
ReplyDeleteTypical response made by "civilized savages". Not very surprising.
To Anony 8:09 a.m. 4/23/14
"Most based in agenda driven..."
Yes, similar to TBC. We agree, finally.
"Depends. IF scientists are dismissing the critques as motive/agenda driven and not scientifc".
Exactly my point. You've decided to look in the mirror and self-assess. Thank you.
"Now, if we were to actually quote from all sides of the spectrum equally. It would make for interesting speculation."
Three for three? Wow, you are starting to come around. You, first.
>>CamCama said:
ReplyDelete"""CamCama said...
Do you really need to read The Bell Curve to notice that blacks have significantly lower average IQ's than the other races? You just need functional eyes and ears to make the observation..."""
Amen, Cam, Amen. The thing is, Idle and others who ascribe to allegedly alternative views of intelligence wouldn't necessarily concede much less agree that there is a direct cause. After all, if it can be demonstrated that even a single white person has a low IQ, well then....how can you say that stuff about blacks? If you can find one then that could theoretically disprove the entire thesis.
""""The big huge scientific experiment known as history demonstrates the distinct lack of achievement and organization by blacks, (long before Murray or Hernstein were even born)."""
BINGO. But you know, again, the Stephen Jay Gould types will never concede this point. They'll just state in so many words that 'well, history isn't always a reliable guide. It too doesn't always contain the facts. Things that are merely observable can't always contain absolute facts and causes don't imply connections to such nebulous things as racial identity, especially since we all came from one family. So there are no real distinct differences between the races at all whatosever. Except a couple minor traits but they're soooo infinitesimal so it doesn't count or hardly matter.'
Such is the essence of Stephen Jay Gould as well as the fraudulent pseudo-scientific theories that originated from soft human sciences and from anthropologists Franz Boas, Margaret Mead, and Ruth Benedict.
>>Idle Spectator said...
ReplyDelete"""Typical response made by "civilized savages". Not very surprising.""""
SEE? I called it as typing it. He will never concede that there are any major fundamental differences existing between races since his mentors will not allow for it. Every single race is essentially the same.
To Anony 8:09 a.m. 4/23/14
NO, chap, stop with the homophobic slur anony. It is: """" """""" if you want to get the heading correct, but then not surprised since little else you've gotten accurate when discussing this subject.
""""Yes, similar to TBC. We agree, finally.""""
First the homophobic smears and now this. We don't agree and you know it.
""""Exactly my point.""""
"your" point? Grow up. And stop quoting biased source Thomas Sowell as if he doesn't have any vested interest in this subject.
""""You've decided to look in the mirror and self-assess."""""""""
I never look in the mirror, since I know my own image and what it looks like. Only a deluded narcissist such as yourself would need to do so. Of course, you'd better hurry to take that long last look before the mirror cracks.
""""Wow, you are starting to come around."""""
What, to your seance so I too can become a Gould disciple. Would care to see you debate some of your findings with John Derbyshire. If you can quote Thomas Sowell (who isn't technically a scientist, and neither
I mean really. Honestly. Allowing prominent blacks to give responses to mangled soundbites to a lengthy tome, what do you think they'd say?
Here's how it went down"
"Would you care to comment, Dr Sowell on TBC? In it, it claims that blacks really aren't that from an IQ standpoint."
What do you think he as well as other prominent blacks are going to say in response? Take your time, but not all day.
Next you'll quote Sharpton and Jesse on their response to TBC.
Blah, blah, blah, anony. We get it. Anything and everything that runs counter to TBC, regardless of their findings, regardless of their arguments, etc. is bunk.
ReplyDeleteKeep playing the fiddle while Rome is burning.
"History demonstrates the distinct lack of achievement and organization by blacks".
Here's that word again...subjective opinion.
>>Idle Spectator said...
ReplyDelete""""Blah, blah, blah,""""
Out of the mouths of babes, imbeciles, and seance holders that worship at the Gouldian shrine. That's the best he could teach you and that's not surprising.
Oh, go on, do continue with those tiny wisdom pearlettes.
""""anony."""""
Idly. Exactly, WHAT are you spectator of, OH of course! At the seance when you last contacted your leader a la 'master, Jay Stephen, what must I say at the blog post, what must I say? Give me my instructions."
"""We get it."""""
You mean, you received it, your instructions per Gould. Go ahead.
"""""Anything and everything that runs counter to TBC,"""""
My, those sour grapes are starting to stink!
""""regardless of their findings, regardless of their arguments,"""""
LEGITIMATE findings, certainly. BOGUS goobledygook, no.
What part of the words and concept "legitimate based findings, accurate science" are you having a problem understanding?
I mean, you did 'blah blah blah' earlier so NOT SAYING YOUR MENTALLY CHALLENGED, NOT AT ALL, although...the blah thingy there, does suggest a certain deficiency, and therefore...
""""is bunk.""""""
Sounds just like the church did vs Galileo during the 16th century. As in "Preposterous! EVERYONE knows that the sun and planets all revolve around the Earth, everyone!" (e.g. "everyone knows that Boaz, Mead, Benedict, Gould etc are correct, everyone!")
Anything else?
"""Keep playing the fiddle while Rome is burning.""""
Ok. Maybe mentally challenged isn't a strong term of description. Rome is the capital of Italy. This blog originates in the USA. Rome, Italy is not in the United States of America. You know, two objects can't actually occupy the same space simultaneously.
"""Here's that word again...subjective opinion.""""
What's subjective about what was stated? If you have facts to the contrary regarding US blacks, then state them.
Steve just posted this today, and you are the classic definition. Classic and it's you. It's definitely you! Pinker's ANSWER, is you. Alllllll you.
Q: Aren't we all better off if people believe that we are not constrained by our biology and so can achieve any future we choose?
A: People are surely better off with the truth. Oddly enough, everyone agrees with this when it comes to the arts. Sophisticated people sneer at feel-good comedies and saccharine romances in which everyone lives happily ever after. But when it comes to science, these same people say, "Give us schmaltz!" They expect the science of human beings to be a source of emotional uplift and inspirational sermonizing.
YES, definitely it's you, Idly, blahs and all.
"Keep playing the fiddle while Rome is burning."
ReplyDeleteThis makes no sense. We are attempting to douse the fire while your side keeps adding fuel to it.
"LEGITIMATE findings, certainly. BOGUS goobledygook, no."
ReplyDeleteSpinning the hamster wheel.
" (e.g. "everyone knows that Boaz, Mead, Benedict, Gould etc are correct, everyone!")"
Never said that. They COULD be correct if TBC acolytes would turn inwardly and admit that their criticisms have merit. Exactly why science today is under siege.
Again, follow your own advice--"The wrong view of science constantly betrays itself in the desire to be right." (at the omission of all relevant data that could potentially refute it).
>>Spinning his wheels while Idling Spectator said:
ReplyDelete"""Spinning the hamster wheel."
That's you, Idly!
"""Never said that.""""
Yeah, you did.
"""They COULD be correct""""
See? Just did.
""""if TBC acolytes would turn inwardly and admit that their criticisms have merit.""""
Disingenuous. They used to BEFORE TBC and its findings came along. Actually, want to blame anyone trying blaming Arthur Jensen back in the 60's. He's the one who caught all that flack for daring to publish findings that blacks and whites and standard IQ deviation, and such unpleasant UNGouldian UnBoazian findings. It just upset the whole applecart! How dare he?
"""Exactly why science today is under siege.""""
Well, things were going along fine enough with the entire scientific method etc until the soft sciences (nurture, of course this was waaay before the DNA and Genome findings of 20yrs ago which doesnt help their side any, but that's another matter).
Yep, things were going along fine and then Boaz and his disciples Margaret Mead (a fake. Faked her research on the 'important' discovery of Samoa. Had a personal bias to grind vs standard genetics, nature, etc.)
If its under seige today, its from bogus ideas as "Everything is IQ and we can redefine intelligence any single way we say it is".
""""Again, follow your own advice""""""
Idly! This does not sound like a mere spectator but more of a heckler. What up with that?
""""The wrong view of science constantly betrays itself in the desire to be right."""""""
HEY! Wait just a second. First you hold a seance to crib Gould's ideas, NOW you're stealing my own quote!
Well, imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, Idly. Much appreciated. Any time I can help assist you in your travels thru this big classroom called life, anytime, anytime.
"""(at the omission of all relevant data that could potentially refute it)""""""
Spoken like a true Boazian er Gouldian, which is exactly what they both attempted to do to legitimate science.
Again, follow your own advice--"The wrong view of science constantly betrays itself in the desire to be right." (at the omission of all relevant data that could potentially refute it).
ReplyDelete>>Refusing to alter his preconceptions re: legitimate science, Gouldian devotee, ER Idle Spectator said:
ReplyDelete"""Again, follow your own advice""""
I have, why haven't you? And why cant you come up with your own originality rather than quoting someone else's original quotes 3rd hand?
""""The wrong view of science constantly betrays itself in the desire to be right."""""
If anything, it pertains to your side since its based on legitimate science and not Idly speculation.
"""(at the omission of all relevant data that could potentially refute it)""""
I said this part, and now youre quoting me without attributing it.
See? Attempting to take credit for something that wasn't your original thought; just like a true disciple of Gould and we'd expect nothing less from this.
Again, follow your own advice--"The wrong view of science constantly betrays itself in the desire to be right." (at the omission of all relevant data that could potentially refute it).
ReplyDelete>>Still obsessed with channelling Gould, Idle Spectator said...
ReplyDelete""""Again, follow your own advice--""""
I have, Idly, I have. Why don't you?
""""The wrong view of science constantly betrays itself in the desire to be right." (at the omission of all relevant data that could potentially refute it).""""""
I know you are, but what am I? I know you are, but what am I? Sticks and stones will break bones but names will never ever hurt me!
What other originality do you have for us, Idly? What?
Again, follow your own advice--"The wrong view of science constantly betrays itself in the desire to be right." (at the omission of all relevant data that could potentially refute it).
ReplyDelete