tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post1847901884209207348..comments2024-03-27T18:24:19.683-07:00Comments on Steve Sailer: iSteve: Jacob Heilbrunn's "They Knew They Were Right"Unknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger52125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-20716903217413789772008-02-06T21:00:00.000-08:002008-02-06T21:00:00.000-08:00Heilbrunn's book is very good in its analysis of t...Heilbrunn's book is very good in its analysis of the neocons' relationships to Jewishness and modern Jewish experience. He's right on the money. Otherwise, his book is quite fatuous. The neocons are irrelevant, fighting the battles of the past. The idea that a group of crazy Jews (and Heilbrunn clearly regards them as rather crazy ('fanatics', 'extremists', he calls them)) took control of American foreign policy through 'prophetic bravado and savvy street-fighting skills' is, well, crazy, and a good example of academic detachment from reality. The establishment used the neocons for whatever they were worth in rhetoric and theatrics, but, despite what the necons or anyone else may claim, never included them in central decision-making. That is a fact. (Of course, Bush et al. must have enjoyed the Left's squirming under the potential charge of antisemitism due to its unsuccessful efforts to control itself from seeking to discredit the neocons on the basis of their Jewisness alone. THAT would be must illiberal. Are Jews open season for the Left if they leave the Left? Tsk. Tsk. What a laugh!)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-54465354033809658222008-01-26T08:42:00.000-08:002008-01-26T08:42:00.000-08:00Why would we want to be Paleos when Paleos like yo...<I>Why would we want to be Paleos when Paleos like you give us the finger?</I><BR/><BR/>The question is irrelevant. Jews don't pursue Paleoconservatism because it's not in their interests. Jews aren't worried about anyone giving them the finger. What are we to think chutzpah is - a myth?<BR/><BR/><I>Paleo-populism is, like all forms of populism, an ideology for economic under-achievers.</I><BR/><BR/>Oooh, wicked burn! Is your point that economic under-achievers shouldn't pursue their own interests, or that normal people should avoid the politics of economic under-achievers, lest they catch the same disease, or both?<BR/><BR/><I>We Jews tend to be empathetic and philanthropic to have-nots, which is why we often support policies to help other groups (e.g., Civil Rights for blacks) or those which go against our economic interests (progressive taxation and generous social spending for the poor).</I><BR/><BR/>Jews tend to be less empathetic toward outgroups than most groups - this is part and parcel of high ethnocentrism. See the historical role of Jewries as exploiter-middleman (Soviet Union, Soviet satellites, Medieval Europe, etc.) for good examples.<BR/><BR/>Jews advanced civil rights for their own ethnic interests, not out of any sense of generosity. They favor progressive taxation because they know those who pay the biggest bribes stay closest to the king's ear. Philanthropy toward fellow Jews is of course written into Judaism, and by extension modern Jewry, but I've never seen a scintilla of evidence that this crosses the ethnic divide.<BR/><BR/>It might not be a proxy for empathy toward outgroups, but it's in the neighborhood: Jews are drastically less trusting of outgroups than any other European denomination:<BR/><BR/><B>[148] Just how distrustful Jews are has been calculated in a survey conducted by the National Opinion Research Center for Dr. Melvin Kohn of the National Institute of Mental Health. In this survey, Jews almost leaped off the chart in terms of their intrinsic distrust of others. That survey, reported by the center's Andrew Greeley in his book That Most Distrustful Nation, attempted to assess various white ethnic groups' comparable levels of distrust. The scale went from Plus 4--most trusting--to Minus 4--least trusting:</B><BR/><BR/><B>GROUP ORDER AND SCORE<BR/>Irish Catholic 2.506<BR/>Scandinavian Protestant 1.583<BR/>Slavic Catholic 1.481<BR/>German Protestant 0.767<BR/>German Catholic 0.757<BR/>Italian Catholic 0.502<BR/>White, Anglo-Saxon, Protestant 0.242<BR/>Jewish - 3.106</B><BR/><BR/>Do you have any data on Jewish philanthropy to outgroups, vs. non-Jewish philanthropy to outgroups? How about Israelis? Any data on them? Do they seem to be worried about the wellbeing of outgroups around them? In my experience, Israel (i.e., Jews on their own) seem to travel in the opposite direction.<BR/><BR/><I>But if you hate us, why would you expect us to go out of our way to advance your agenda? We're not shrinking violets, but were not all masochists either.</I><BR/><BR/>There was lots of animus against Jews prior to their march through the institutions, rise to financial prominence, etc. Why didn't they wilt in the face of all that? Hell, the left seems to be trending toward "anti-Semitism"; why aren't Jews trending right just as quickly?<BR/><BR/>This whole conversation is stupid, really. I feel like a sucker for even entertaining this nonsense.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-33966131074592146682008-01-25T15:40:00.000-08:002008-01-25T15:40:00.000-08:00Fifi,American manufacturing exports are at record ...Fifi,<BR/><BR/>American manufacturing exports are at record levels today. Great American manufacturing companies like Boeing, John Deere, United Technologies, GE, etc. are booming, supplying demand for infrastructure and heavy equipment in the developing world. Like all successful American industries though (e.g., farming), American high-tech manufacturers are more efficient today and thus require fewer workers to produce more output. So like everyone else in the workforce, manufacturing workers have to compete for these (typically high-paying) jobs. <BR/><BR/>Paleo-populists look back on the glory days post-WWII when the factories of Europe and Japan had been smashed to rubble, leaving so little competition for American manufacturers that they could afford to pay lavish wages for life to workers who failed out of high school. The saga of the UAW sucking our big-three auto makers dry shows what happens when you try to continue those policies in a competitive world. <BR/><BR/>Sorry you have to hustle to get a good job, but so do the rest of us. Deal with it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-37712694112727227472008-01-25T12:25:00.000-08:002008-01-25T12:25:00.000-08:00"Paleo-populism is, like all forms of populism, an..."Paleo-populism is, like all forms of populism, an ideology for economic under-achievers. We Jews tend to be empathetic and philanthropic to have-nots..."<BR/><BR/>Two points. <BR/><BR/>Paleo-populism is about having a manufacturing base in this country so that those who aren't among the educated elite will have access to jobs other than waitress, retail clerk, or car washer. <BR/><BR/>Donating or redistribution of income to have-nots wouldn't be necessary were you to support policies that keep jobs from going overseas (see above).<BR/><BR/>I know you like to feel good about yourself that after impoverishing the former middle class with your globalist corporate agenda you provide them welfare but it makes you no less guilty.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-58721142401711762492008-01-25T06:11:00.000-08:002008-01-25T06:11:00.000-08:00"When Jews are excluded from something they want t...<I>"When Jews are excluded from something they want to do, they do it on their own. Just come out and admit they don't want to be paleos; you'll get points for honesty, at least. This shrinking violet thing is laughable."</I><BR/><BR/>Why would we want to be Paleos when Paleos like you give us the finger? Paleo-populism is, like all forms of populism, an ideology for economic under-achievers. We Jews tend to be empathetic and philanthropic to have-nots, which is why we often support policies to help other groups (e.g., Civil Rights for blacks) or those which go against our economic interests (progressive taxation and generous social spending for the poor). But if you hate us, why would you expect us to go out of our way to advance your agenda? We're not shrinking violets, but were not all masochists either.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-78746627733442409132008-01-24T13:39:00.000-08:002008-01-24T13:39:00.000-08:00nearly all American Jews want to be, and are, assi...<I>nearly all American Jews want to be, and are, assimilated Americans. In fact, they are so assimilated that half of them marry non-Jews.</I><BR/><BR/>Jews have far lower intermarriage rates than other groups. All the yakking Jews do over having the lowest intermarriage rate of any group (certainly any white group) just serves to prove how much less they are intermarrying, and how much they oppose intermarriage.<BR/><BR/>Anybody know the interracial marriage rate for Jews? I suspect I don't, after years of reading about this sort of topic, precisely because Jews don't want me to know. <BR/><BR/><I>Paleos have a group identity that doesn't include Jews, so there is no room for Jews in that club. It's like asking where are the Jews in Germany's Christian Democrats party.</I><BR/><BR/>When Jews are excluded from something they want to do, they do it on their own. Just come out and admit they don't want to be paleos; you'll get points for honesty, at least. This shrinking violet thing is laughable.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-6057788035097268622008-01-23T16:05:00.000-08:002008-01-23T16:05:00.000-08:00Are you equating Confederates with Paelocons? That...<I>Are you equating Confederates with Paelocons? That makes no sense. Paleocons are Republicans</I><BR/><BR/>You obviously know nothing about paleocons. (Maybe you think Newt and Rush or paleos? LOL) Go to their websites - Chronicles, Conservative Times, Taki, - and read what they have to say about the GOP and The Great Liberator.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-65831409123269978262008-01-23T15:30:00.000-08:002008-01-23T15:30:00.000-08:00"History trivia question: who was Judah C. Benjami...<I>"History trivia question: who was Judah C. Benjamin?"</I><BR/><BR/>Are you equating Confederates with Paelocons? That makes no sense. Paleocons are Republicans, and one of the key planks in the Republicans' platform in Benjamin's time, of course, was their opposition to slavery.<BR/><BR/><I>".. Both Chompsky and his protege, Norman Finkelstein, like to make the point that, prior to about 1967, many or perhaps most Jewish Americans wanted to be assimilated Americans."</I><BR/><BR/>First, there's no "p" in Chomsky. Second, nearly all American Jews want to be, and are, assimilated Americans. In fact, they are so assimilated that half of them marry non-Jews. There are exceptions among the ultra-orthodox, who embrace the freedom America has given them to live in their own communities, but they are no less American (and are less isolated) than traditional Amish or Mennonite communities.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-32553742877244394982008-01-23T12:07:00.000-08:002008-01-23T12:07:00.000-08:00There have been a few Jews in paleocon circles, su...<I>There have been a few Jews in paleocon circles, such as Paul Gottfried and Jacob Neusner, so it is not as if they unwelcome. Jews just don't seem to find anything that smacks of nationalism to be attractive.</I><BR/><BR/>Israeli Jews seem to be all over it like a cheap suit. <I>American</I> Jews seem all over Israeli nationalism like a cheap suit.<BR/><BR/><I>Maybe they just don't find traditionalist Gentile concerns to be of much interest to them.</I><BR/><BR/>They seem to find them interesting, but in the wrong direction.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-63684924030134152462008-01-23T12:03:00.000-08:002008-01-23T12:03:00.000-08:00The reason why there aren't many (if any) Paleo Je...<I>The reason why there aren't many (if any) Paleo Jews is because we aren't welcome in that crowd.</I><BR/><BR/>The world heavyweight champions of political activism don't go paleocon because they get the cold shoulder from non-Jewish paleos?<BR/><BR/>Intelligence-insulting facile argument #335211; Jews need <B>no one's</B> approval to do what they want politically. They start movements at the drop of a hat. But we're supposed to believe that the group who gave the world the word chutzpah suddenly turn into shrinking violets when it comes to real conservatism?<BR/><BR/>Gimme a break already. Who comes up with this drek?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-78464604077963592312008-01-23T09:35:00.000-08:002008-01-23T09:35:00.000-08:00But Paleos have a group identity that doesn't incl...<I> But Paleos have a group identity that doesn't include Jews, so there is no room for Jews in that club. It's like asking where are the Jews in Germany's Christian Democrats party.</I><BR/><BR/>Check this:<BR/><I><BR/>The Jewish Confederates (NS) by Robert N. Rosen (Hardcover - Oct 2000) <BR/>Buy new: $39.95 $26.37 31 Used & new from $8.75 <BR/><BR/>Get it by Thursday, Jan 24 if you order in the next 5 hours and choose one-day shipping. <BR/>Eligible for FREE Super Saver Shipping. <BR/> (11) <BR/>Excerpt - page 44: "... the Library of Congress.) (Right) Map of Charleston showing key Jewish Confederate sites. ..." <BR/>Surprise me! See a random page in this book. <BR/><BR/>http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_gw/104-6120669-7562316?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=jewish+confederates&x=18&y=29</I><BR/><BR/>History trivia question: who was Judah C. Benjamin?<BR/><BR/>.. Both Chompsky and his protege, Norman Finkelstein, like to make the point that, prior to about 1967, many or perhaps most Jewish Americans wanted to be assimilated Americans.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-38475258469362866822008-01-23T04:22:00.000-08:002008-01-23T04:22:00.000-08:00Why is it hunkey-dorey for liberals to yakk about ...<EM>Why is it hunkey-dorey for liberals to yakk about the WASP power structure, but not hunkey-dorey for me to yakk about the Jewish power structure?</EM><BR/><BR/>Because your IQ is less than your shoe size and you think that the Jew doctors cut your penis too small?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-57046024193522637722008-01-23T02:06:00.000-08:002008-01-23T02:06:00.000-08:00"All political movements attract high-IQ people. …..."All political movements attract high-IQ people. …The only political movement where Jews are absent is the Christian-right, and that's because Jews aren't Christian._"<BR/><BR/>I can think of at least one: that crazy guy Michael D. Evans, author of books like Showdown with Nuclear Iran and The Final Move Beyond Iraq. Although a Christian minister, he’s of Jewish descent and identifies as such.<BR/><BR/>And though he’s not a convert to Christianity, I kind of think Michael Medved should count too.<BR/><BR/>So, while clearly at a lower rate than other political movements, even the Christian-right attracts some Jews. Although my examples may be exceptions to your high-IQ point.Garlandhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03453366944819816207noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-51246321197211549222008-01-22T21:29:00.000-08:002008-01-22T21:29:00.000-08:00There have been a few Jews in paleocon circles, su...There have been a few Jews in paleocon circles, such as Paul Gottfried and Jacob Neusner, so it is not as if they unwelcome. Jews just don't seem to find anything that smacks of nationalism to be attractive. Maybe they just don't find traditionalist Gentile concerns to be of much interest to them. <BR/><BR/>Compared to other causes there are very few involved in so-called anti-immigrant movements. Prior to immigration becoming a big issue on the right Jews were virtually non-existent among such movements.<BR/><BR/>I don't think there are many Jewish "isolationists" either. <BR/><BR/><I>I've thought about this a bit, for I don't myself look at neoconservativism through the lense of faith.</I><BR/><BR/>Jews are an ethnic group.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-50081505236354860912008-01-22T21:09:00.000-08:002008-01-22T21:09:00.000-08:00Half-sigma:"All political movements attract high-I...Half-sigma:<BR/>"All political movements attract high-IQ people. Ashkenazi Jews are disproportionately represented in all political movements because the average Ashkenazi Jew is 15 IQ points smarter than the average gentile.<BR/><BR/>The only political movement where Jews are absent is the Christian-right, and that's because Jews aren't Christian."<BR/><BR/>You are correct, as far as you go. Think of us gentiles as black Africans and Jews as European settlers. European settlers will always be in charge of the high-IQ political movements because European settlers are very smart. But because they are a minority, European settlers will always feel fundamentally insecure and inevitably protect themselves first. <BR/><BR/>And when for some strange reason black Africans throw off the hegemony of European settlers, the settlers will stand in shock and horror, telling the black Africans that they will never survive without the guidance, technology and education that settlers provide. And it will be heartfelt ... and no conspiracy required.<BR/><BR/>And for some strange reason the black people of Africa will always prefer to do things themselves (and even make a mess of it) rather than live in perpetuity as second class citizens.<BR/><BR/>And no conspiracy is required.<BR/><BR/>Being dominated by another changes one's culture inevitably and inexorably ... and no conspiracy is required.<BR/><BR/>I believe the Israelis have a name for the phenomenon: the Demographic Problem. The only difference is that the Israelis are fearful of being overwhelmed by majority of Arab votes and not a minority of Arab smarts.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-82037728879085367462008-01-22T19:46:00.000-08:002008-01-22T19:46:00.000-08:00"If Jews wanted to support paleoconservative polic...<I>"If Jews wanted to support paleoconservative policies they certainly could."</I><BR/><BR/>Some do, e.g., Mark Levin. But Paleos have a group identity that doesn't include Jews, so there is no room for Jews in that club. It's like asking where are the Jews in Germany's Christian Democrats party.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-88877131071234915762008-01-22T18:22:00.000-08:002008-01-22T18:22:00.000-08:00The reason why there aren't many (if any) Paleo Je...<I>The reason why there aren't many (if any) Paleo Jews is because we aren't welcome in that crowd. The reason many Jews (though not today's generation of neocons, most of whom, unlike their fathers, were never leftists) lean left is because Judaism traditionally inculcated a concern for justice, and, in the first half of the 20th Century, many Jews saw the liberals as being on the side of justice (e.g., the struggles for worker's rights, civil rights, etc.).</I><BR/><BR/>Thanks for providing a theory. I don't know that I agree, but I certainly appreciate it more if you had simply said that you can find Jews of all stripes since the same could be said of any group and that doesn't explain why some groups lean further in one direction or another.<BR/><BR/>If Jews wanted to support paleoconservative policies they certainly could. It could be argued that traditional mainstream conservatism hasn't been particularly welcoming toward Jews. That hasn't stopped the neocons.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-64646171688773200342008-01-22T17:32:00.000-08:002008-01-22T17:32:00.000-08:00"That doesn't explain why Jews lean left or why Je...<I>"That doesn't explain why Jews lean left or why Jews are so much less prominent among the field of paleoconservatives versus neoconservatives."</I><BR/><BR/>Tommy,<BR/><BR/>The reason why there aren't many (if any) Paleo Jews is because we aren't welcome in that crowd. The reason many Jews (though not today's generation of neocons, most of whom, unlike their fathers, were never leftists) lean left is because Judaism traditionally inculcated a concern for justice, and, in the first half of the 20th Century, many Jews saw the liberals as being on the side of justice (e.g., the struggles for worker's rights, civil rights, etc.). Nevertheless, Jews can be found at different points along a broad political spectrum in the U.S. today. Some examples:<BR/><BR/>- Liberal populist: The late Sen. Paul Wellstone.<BR/><BR/>- Mainstream, antiwar Democrat: Sen. Feingold, one of the first Senators to call for withdrawal from Iraq.<BR/><BR/>- Right-wing anti-immigration traditionalist: Radio talk show host Mark Levin.<BR/><BR/>- Left-wing anti-Western, anti-capitalist, anti-Israel: Noam Chomsky<BR/><BR/><I>und so weiter</I> (as your ancestors in the old country would say).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-65254469115040621382008-01-22T16:39:00.000-08:002008-01-22T16:39:00.000-08:00Anonymous (well one of them) said: 'Paleos are ob...Anonymous (well one of them) said: 'Paleos are obsessed with America and what's best for Americans'<BR/><BR/>Why would European paleos think this way?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-67763378845740172232008-01-22T15:36:00.000-08:002008-01-22T15:36:00.000-08:00Lots of unintelligible babble here.Unintelligible ...<I>Lots of unintelligible babble here.</I><BR/><BR/>Unintelligible does not mean the same as unintelligent. The clue is in the suffix.<BR/><BR/><I>All political movements attract high-IQ people. Ashkenazi Jews are disproportionately represented in all political movements because the average Ashkenazi Jew is 15 IQ points smarter than the average gentile.</I><BR/><BR/>They're not disproportionately represented in the anti-immigration movement or any other movement seeking to defend the interests of gentile whites. Nor does their higher average IQ account wholly for their success: things like ethnic nepotism and aggression are also at work.<BR/><BR/><I>People seriously need to stop looking for Jewish conspiracies where none exist.</I><BR/><BR/>People seriously need to stop thinking a bit of hand-waving will make the facts go away. Neo-conservatism clearly seeks to serve Jewish interests as a certain group of Jews conceive them to be. Being pro-Israel and pro-immigration is one example. And what's your ethnicity, Half-Sigma?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-15300324008751369952008-01-22T14:57:00.000-08:002008-01-22T14:57:00.000-08:00do you think an anti-Jew can write a book critical...<I>do you think an anti-Jew can write a book critical of paleoconservatism and its link to anti-Jews (of course not all paleos are anti-Jewish)?</I><BR/><BR/>Sure. They talk about it all the time.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-17386361435508306072008-01-22T13:26:00.000-08:002008-01-22T13:26:00.000-08:00I'm not sure I believe that. My memory may not be ...<I>I'm not sure I believe that. My memory may not be what it used to be, but I think I remember some polls before the invasion that suggested otherwise.</I><BR/><BR/>Yes, Jews polled in favor of the war, a few points behind the general public. Once it became fait accompli, approval trended steadily downward.<BR/><BR/>But organized Jewry was and is fully in favor.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-79459637691012928782008-01-22T13:25:00.000-08:002008-01-22T13:25:00.000-08:00Nice try, but taqqiyah is an Islamic precept.-The ...<I><BR/>Nice try, but taqqiyah is an Islamic precept.<BR/><BR/>-The International Jew</I><BR/><BR/>Ah, but if it were also Jewish that's exactly what you would say, right? So you prove I'm correct.<BR/><BR/>hehe<BR/><BR/>Actually, deception is permissible in Judaism, and in Islam as well, but not in Christianity. Many of the martyrs in Spain under Islamic occupation were Christians who simply refused to dissimulate, even when that's all that was expected of them, under pressure from Islamic law. Then, after the tables were turned, the Inquisition was set up to root out taqqiyah practiced my marranos, moriscos and eventually Christian heretics. <BR/><BR/>You see the fundamental philosophical difference? This might explain the higher degree of religious conformity in Europe when compared to the Middle East.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-60302122494508324992008-01-22T08:07:00.000-08:002008-01-22T08:07:00.000-08:00"In what sense is Bill Kristol not Jewish? His par..."In what sense is Bill Kristol not Jewish? His parents Irving Kristol and Gertrude Himmelfarb are certainly Jewish." I think he was thinking of Jonah Goldberg who takes his mothers religion of Episcopalianism.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-24363051748160137952008-01-22T06:48:00.000-08:002008-01-22T06:48:00.000-08:00Bill - (I think it's culturally ingrained from cen...Bill - (I think it's culturally ingrained from centuries of practicing taqiyyah, or dissimulation)<BR/><BR/>Nice try, but taqqiyah is an Islamic precept.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com