tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post190005752451654247..comments2024-03-27T18:24:19.683-07:00Comments on Steve Sailer: iSteve: The Appeal of Nil-Nil DrawsUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger58125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-26659914175410456132011-04-25T13:32:11.804-07:002011-04-25T13:32:11.804-07:00"The appeal of high-scoring American football..."The appeal of high-scoring American football—with its action, expertise, and comebacks against the clock—is as obvious as the appeal of American summer movies."<br /><br />No wish to denigrate other people's favourite sports, but as far as I can see that appeal is only really obvious to Americans and Canadians.<br /><br />I think most people outside North America find gridiron football slow and predictable. I don't doubt it has its attractions, but it's such an acquired taste compared to more accessible sports such as association football and rugby.Chrisnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-55811453202602902342010-07-01T06:57:27.326-07:002010-07-01T06:57:27.326-07:00Not really buying that. At the college level they ...<i>Not really buying that. At the college level they do hold these men v women exhibition games sometimes and the men usually outscore the women by 5 to 10 goals. There is no indication that they aren't playing seriously, and if they aren't totally serious I still find it hard to believe that the margin would be "50 to 0".</i><br /><br />It's so cute the way women think they are as good as men at manly things (ie at the 95% of things that matter in this world).<br /><br />I don't know why they're so crushed to find out they're not, though. It's not as if men have the slightest desire to get rid of women (the way man-hating she-things want to do without men).Silvernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-29068434072598364782010-06-30T19:54:32.133-07:002010-06-30T19:54:32.133-07:00"scores" are simply arbitrary quantized ...<i>"scores" are simply arbitrary quantized abstractions of to differentiate between team/individual play</i> --Kaka<br /><br /><i>Loser.</i> --Bear Bryant's ghost<br /><br />If Kaka's comment makes him a "loser", BBG's makes <i>him</i> an anterior orifice. <br /><br />I don't remember Bryant himself displaying such bad manners, or snobbery. I suspect he'd just have ignored such "Kaka-phonous" analyses.Reg Cæsarnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-85260674553335552302010-06-30T19:47:39.753-07:002010-06-30T19:47:39.753-07:00Baseball is more symphonic with pitcher functionin...<i>Baseball is more symphonic with pitcher functioning like a conductor ...</i> --Asdf...etc. (the man with no left thumb or right hand)<br /><br />This would be a most fascinating analysis, but for one little mistake-- it's the catcher who performs the "conductor" role in baseball.<br /><br />Symphonic conductor, that is. I suppose the pitcher <i>could</i> be compared to a <i>railroad</i> conductor!Reg Cæsarnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-60939048396227959972010-06-30T16:44:51.356-07:002010-06-30T16:44:51.356-07:00"This comment was off-topic, and got buried i..."This comment was off-topic, and got buried in the thread (most of the rest of the comments were fascinating), but I think this is great since I pretty much had the same idea. My idea was to make all basketball games five quarters, the team that wins three quarters wins the game. The game lasts as many quarters as it takes a team to win three quarters, some will last three quarters, some four, and some will go five quarters."<br /><br />Five Quarters? Interesting...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-51219538342721057052010-06-30T08:43:52.720-07:002010-06-30T08:43:52.720-07:00>"scores" are simply arbitrary quanti...>"scores" are simply arbitrary quantized abstractions of to differentiate between team/individual play<<br /><br />Loser.Bear Bryant's ghostnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-3748427208504587372010-06-30T04:05:55.405-07:002010-06-30T04:05:55.405-07:00Really there isn't that much appeal in watchin...Really there isn't that much appeal in watching a nil-nil draw. If people knew in advance that a match will be nil-nil they wouldn't watch it. Except that they don't.<br /><br />I come from a country where Soccer is popular, and I can assure you that 99% of people appreciate high-scoring games over low-scoring games. And contrary to what the first commentator, most people really are more concerned with 'Who Wins', not so much 'What Happens'. Most soccer fans don't really appreciate the fine art of defending. It just isn't very visually appealing.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-44284779415087549482010-06-30T01:54:35.302-07:002010-06-30T01:54:35.302-07:00"Men vs. Women playing American football? Wom..."Men vs. Women playing American football? Women would get killed ... literally."<br /><br />How about Asian men vs Black women? Timothy Nguyen vs Thelma Washington.adsfasdfasdfnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-8319895744346602282010-06-30T00:04:34.470-07:002010-06-30T00:04:34.470-07:00At the college level ... men usually outscore the ...<i>At the college level ... men usually outscore the women by 5 to 10 goals. I still find it hard to believe that [at much higher level] the margin would be "50 to 0".</i><br /><br />Let's say 10 at the college level. The point is, at the very top the difference will be <b>larger</b>. A reader of this blog should get the idea easily: we are talking about extreme right side of the two distributions with significantly different means.Nanonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-90239772900117896702010-06-29T22:50:37.373-07:002010-06-29T22:50:37.373-07:00"The soccer score would be more than 50:0 if ..."The soccer score would be more than 50:0 if men decide to play seriously. At that point the margin should be considered infinitely wide. "<br /><br />Not really buying that. At the college level they do hold these men v women exhibition games sometimes and the men usually outscore the women by 5 to 10 goals. There is no indication that they aren't playing seriously, and if they aren't totally serious I still find it hard to believe that the margin would be "50 to 0". My guess is that elite women are on the same level as a decent but not elite high school boys team.BamaGirlnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-5184263223086019942010-06-29T17:51:51.983-07:002010-06-29T17:51:51.983-07:00"I thought that to - but that's just one ...<i>"I thought that to - but that's just one game."</i><br /><br />Actually, Ghana knocked us out last time around too.Frednoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-80525003740206939472010-06-29T16:25:16.824-07:002010-06-29T16:25:16.824-07:00The women still lose, but not by as great of a mar...<i>The women still lose, but not by as great of a margin as they would in football.</i><br /><br />The soccer score would be more than 50:0 if men decide to play seriously. At that point the margin should be considered infinitely wide. <br /><br /><i>Women are more relatively competitive with men in sports like tennis and distance running than they are in soccer.</i><br /><br />Maybe. Yet, a 600+ ranked chain smoking male player (Karsten Braasch) beat top female players (Williams sisters) 6:1, 6:2.Nanonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-73484976201679000632010-06-29T16:11:17.064-07:002010-06-29T16:11:17.064-07:00"You could play a basketball like tennis is p..."You could play a basketball like tennis is played, and each team has to win three quarters (if there's a tie at 2-2, then play overtime). That would make each quarter worth something. Of course, the game might be over by the third quarter. Then you play the final quarter on a total points basis, ie if one team outscores the other (but loses on quarters) they play an overtime."<br /><br />This comment was off-topic, and got buried in the thread (most of the rest of the comments were fascinating), but I think this is great since I pretty much had the same idea. My idea was to make all basketball games five quarters, the team that wins three quarters wins the game. The game lasts as many quarters as it takes a team to win three quarters, some will last three quarters, some four, and some will go five quarters. <br /><br />The NBA has a huge problem with officiating, worse than any other professional sport including soccer (where the problem is also pretty bad), and that is the reason I don't watch. But agree that the games don't have any tension since scoring happens all the time, and you really only have to watch the fourth quarter unless it is a blowout.<br /><br />By comparison, the low scoring in international soccer is not that bad, and they probably only need to do minor adjustments, comparable with lowering the pitcher's mound. This year they seem to have tried a different ball. I don't get the offsides rule, but before they touch that I'd like to see them introduce the concept of settling games in overtime instead of allowing teams to get points for ties or to win through penalty kicks, this probably will encourage more aggressive strategies in the international tournament.Dr. Naismithnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-3921044509575495362010-06-29T15:40:51.071-07:002010-06-29T15:40:51.071-07:00Men vs. Women playing American football? Women wo...Men vs. Women playing American football? Women would get killed ... literally.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-27397090851330105832010-06-29T15:35:16.135-07:002010-06-29T15:35:16.135-07:00Steve is comparing a national competition with a c...Steve is comparing a national competition with a club competition. What he should really do is compare a club competition - NFL - with another club competition, like La Liga or Premier League, or Champions League football. Average scoring is higher in those games.<br /><br />He should also remember international sport is unique because unlike at club level managers cannot buy in talent to get the most out of a star player. They have to work with what they've got, which is often 1 star player plus 10 jokers. Thus I think international football is system orientated - the individual is suppressed for the good of the team - whereas club football more often star orientated. Chelsea gets the most out of Lampard, Liverpool Gerard, Man U Rooney, Bayen Munich Robben, Barcelona Messi etc.<br /><br />So Steve is comparing apples to oranges... sorry, knock out punch not yet landed.<br /><br /><br /><br /><i>Dear Mr. Sailer !<br />Would you like to comment on the USA - Ghana play from the position of yours: that soccer is is white man's game (requiring more endurance), as opposed to football (American one, requiring fast spurts, like 100 meter dash), or basketball ?<br />Respectfully yours, Florida resident.</i><br /><br />I thought that to - but that's just one game. Truth should come out in the averages.<br /><br />I did notice though that Ghana didn't have a good second half and had put 3 outfield substitutes on the pitch by the extra time period. The goal scored in extra time was scored on a break-away.<br /><br />Fifa stats show US team ran a culmulative 148km during the match, Ghana 140km. (There were no red cards).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-84177441589345682102010-06-29T15:05:44.664-07:002010-06-29T15:05:44.664-07:00it's more accurate to analyze soccer league pl...it's more accurate to analyze soccer league play. there's more scoring in regular season, regular league soccer play. then the comparison between soccer and american football would be more apples to apples.<br /><br />i read that in the bundesliga, which was the only soccer league to start using the new ball 1 year ahead of time in anticipation of the world cup (smart germans are smart), scoring was about 3 goals per game both before the new ball and after.<br /><br />world cup play is the ultimate "play not to lose" scenario. for the weaker teams, a 0-0 draw is infinitely preferable to a 1-0 loss. a draw gets you 1 point, a loss 0 points. effectively, you can win by not losing.<br /><br />many sports have a problem with "play not to lose", but they incrementally put in rules to force action. MMA for instance is in the middle of having a massive problem with "play not to lose". this problem mainly occurs in UFC action where the stakes are highest, but can happen anytime in MMA.<br /><br />the NBA had perhaps the worst "play not to lose" problem of any US sports league, which led directly to the invention of the shot clock.jodynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-53580866522291429162010-06-29T14:37:22.950-07:002010-06-29T14:37:22.950-07:00"Much of the pleasure of the World Cup comes ..."Much of the pleasure of the World Cup comes from seeing national stereotypes validated (methodical Germans, fun-loving Brazilians, etcetera)"<br /><br />Actually this world cup this is the total opposite of the truth. Germany has a very creative side full of flair and scores large numbers of goals. Their midfield consists of two box-to-box midfielders (Khedria and shwinestieger) and one great young offensive technician (ozil). Their central striker, Podolski meanwhile has a reputation for laziness. The one negative is diving, already two german players have been booked for diving. <br /><br />By contrast the Brazil team is led by Dunga a man known as a player for his methodical defensive play, and he has built his side along those lines, his striker Luis Fabiano is a poacher who scores off mistakes and rarely scores spectacularly. His midfield has two purely defensive midfielders (felipe melo and Gilberto silva) and one attacking midfielder (kaka). Kaka is far and away Brazil's best player and far from fun loving he is a devout christian who criticized his coach in 2006 for allowing other players to have sex during the tournament.<br /><br />Of course if we are talking about national stereotypes it should be noted that the new attacking creative German team is a diverse one with the majority of players coming from immigrant backgrounds. While the new hardworking defensive Brazilian team whose players spend their nights studying the bible rather than partying has occured at the same time as Pentecostalism took off in Brazil.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-48906406554196872792010-06-29T13:31:27.071-07:002010-06-29T13:31:27.071-07:00I say make the goal just one yard wider so that mo...I say make the goal just one yard wider so that most scores may be 3-2 than 1-0.adsfasdfasdfnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-36515923305909689902010-06-29T13:31:27.072-07:002010-06-29T13:31:27.072-07:00"However, it should be noted that a lot of Eu..."However, it should be noted that a lot of Europeans, Africans and South Americans also like a high-scoring game."<br /><br />They certainly do but they still prefer a low scoring game where they team wins or loses-not-too-badly over a high scoring game where their team gets its ass kicked to the moon. I don't think North Koreans enjoyed losing 7-0, which in American football would be like losing 200 to 0. <br /><br />Besides, people got used to thinking, as Steve said, low scores = 'we have a solid defense' and 'our offensive players are up against a powerful defense,' which is an ennobling feeling. <br /><br />When scores start shooting way up high, people are more likely to wonder, 'what's with the shit defense??' than 'what a great game!' <br /><br />Hockey is like soccer too in that sense. <br />And best chess games are ones where little happens between great players. Why? Because both sides know just about all the tricks of the other. <br /><br />Paradoxically, better the opponents in a match, more 'boring' the match will be, at least for the uninitiated. But if you know the the nature of the sport and how it's played, it's not boring. For real fans, a boring game is like Portugal beating North Korea 7-0. It goes from GOOOOAAALLL to goal, goal, goal, zzzzz. <br /><br />Similarly, a great judo wrestler will do dazzling things with a lesser opponent, tossing him left and right. But two evenly matched wrestlers will appear to be doing very little when, in fact, each is psyched 200% at every second. <br /><br />Soccer is also, in some ways, more like a classical music symphony. The entire field is in play at all times. Just as a soccer ball can from point A to point B or C with a sudden kick, an orchestra can go from quiet to loud, from strings to brass, from horns to drums, etc. <br /><br />Most sports are more like pop music, where our focus is narrower: to a single point of action or melodic line. There are long passes in football but every play presents a specific focus of attention: quarterback hands ball to runner or passes to receiver. <br />The ball moves around a lot in basketball but usually remains on one side of court until the shot is made or rebounded by the other side. It is essentially a half court game. <br /><br />Baseball is more symphonic with pitcher functioning like a conductor but even there the action is pretty well-focused between pitcher and batter. <br /><br />In soccer, the entire field is almost always in play, as the ball goes here, there, everywhere.<br />For the uninitiated, classical music is 'boring' cuz quite often there is no easily identifiable beat or melody. Rather, there are series of sound waves intermingling and creating new realities and situations. <br /><br />Since the soccer field is twice as large as a football field, there's an epic quality. Maybe soccer is liberating for that very reason in smaller countries where people are crammed into tiny living quarters than in the big vast USA. <br />For people from small or poor countries, kicking the soccer ball in a huge field may feel like globe trotting, like conquering the world.<br /><br />And it must be said nothing is more therapeutic than kicking a ball. In basketball, you shoot to make the goal, which isn't very relaxing. In football, you carry the ball like a burden or pass it to nail the receiver. It's nerve wracking. But much of kicking is soccer is just to kick the ball down the big wide field. <br /><br />Most of the time, people use their hands to do practical work. To kick is a more a primitive urge--like angry people kicking their dogs to release their frustration. Well, it's certainly better to kick a ball than some poor animal.asfasdfasdfasdfnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-44517822896778986642010-06-29T12:55:21.256-07:002010-06-29T12:55:21.256-07:00Also, think about Arena Football. I watched a few...Also, think about Arena Football. I watched a few minutes of a broadcast on NFL Network recently. If I recall correctly, the commentator mentioned that the record for touchdowns in the last minute was nine!<br /><br />But it should be the more popular football right? High scoring games where most teams get 50+ points, no lead is ever safe, quick comebacks, and more physical play. But it's not, and the game is a just a spectacle that gets boring within minutes. With defense made so pitiful and useless, there's no accomplishment by the offense (and, yes, it's because the players are NFL-rejects too).Gorillanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-22324076975006113842010-06-29T12:49:37.171-07:002010-06-29T12:49:37.171-07:00Seems a lot of denigration of soccer comes from pe...Seems a lot of denigration of soccer comes from people who just haven't tried to play the sport competitively. Like all sports, only a former player can appreciate the skills demonstrated by the pros. <br /><br />In fact, the declining skill level of pro basketball and football players in the NBA and NFL has been noted by many. Many players are in the league NOT because of their skills, but because of their size and speed. <br /><br />In soccer, that is inconceivable. The pro soccer play is a physical specimen of the highest order, but no one can get by without the highest level of soccer skill. Their accuracy with the ball, playing at such a fast pace under constant pressure, is truly amazing to watch. <br /><br />But if you haven't played soccer competitively, I guess it doesn't seem to register.Justinhttp://religionnewsblog.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-1340836529321783892010-06-29T12:35:03.314-07:002010-06-29T12:35:03.314-07:00"(I wonder how a men vs women soccer game wou..."(I wonder how a men vs women soccer game would turn out. It'd prolly more competive than men vs women football.)"<br /><br />The women still lose, but not by as great of a margin as they would in football. Women are more relatively competitive with men in sports like tennis and distance running than they are in soccer. (Of course even then as a rule the best men always beat the best women)BamaGirlnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-8119165621364998322010-06-29T12:26:55.370-07:002010-06-29T12:26:55.370-07:00... Two closely matched sides battling each other ...<i> ... Two closely matched sides battling each other for 90 minutes, balancing on the edge of a knife; coming close to scoring many times but the other side stopping them. What's not to like? </i><br /><br />North Americans who think that way can watch a hockey game.<br /><br />Plus, hockey has some fights and violece.David Davenportnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-32162746092535071832010-06-29T12:16:08.999-07:002010-06-29T12:16:08.999-07:00"Consider the excitement of the USA's 1-0..."Consider the excitement of the USA's 1-0 victory over Algeria last week. For 90 minutes, the USA were going to tie and fail to make it out of the group stage. The USA had a goal disallowed on a bogus offside call in the 1st half. The tension builds, and builds, and builds, as the USA attacks and attacks and attacks the Algeria goal but fails to score. Finally, in the last possible moment, on a play from one box to the other, the full length of the field, from GK Howard to Donovan to (IIRC?) Altidore to Dempsey to a rebound to Landon Donovan who scores and the USA wins the group. It is an incredible release of tension; an orgasm; a release. There's nothing else in sports like it."<br /><br />Well said.<br /><br />And that illustrates the final point I made: it's easier to remember a stirring yet comprehensive narrative description of a 1-0 soccer game than of a well-executed NFL game simply because the soccer game is simpler in outline. <br /><br />Compare that 1-0 game to the 2009 Super Bowl won 27-23 by Pittsburgh over Arizona. Because the two NFL teams scored a total of nine times in the game, it's very hard to remember a narrative of the game. News stories about it typically mentioned the final touchdown pass, then quickly went into statistics (Kurt Warner 31-43 for 377 yards, Ben Roethlisberger 21-30 for 256 yards) to summarize the complex action. <br /><br />Personally, I like statistics, but they aren't of first order appeal to most human beings: David v. Goliath was a 1-0 fight, and that's what people like.Steve Sailerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11920109042402850214noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-26571364318108363462010-06-29T11:55:55.603-07:002010-06-29T11:55:55.603-07:00Rule changes to the NFL that have given more and m...Rule changes to the NFL that have given more and more protection to the quarterback probably account for most of the increased scores. Also the salary cap era makes it hard for a team to continue to build its defense year after year while remaining under the cap and signing the offensive weapons fans insist on. Teams tend to have defenses that start young, get good, and then get old and give up a ton of points before needing to be scrapped.<br /><br />The rest of the Anglophone world plays cricket, which is an even bigger exercise in statistics than baseball. And many American football statistics are spurious: a team can easily win a game despite having 25% of the time of possession and quarterbacks who throw for 300+ yards only win 50% of the time. Defensive stats, sacks and half-sacks are as sparse as goals and assists in soccer.<br /><br />Glad to see you write so much about soccer though.Gorillanoreply@blogger.com