tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post231701710206741647..comments2024-03-27T18:24:19.683-07:00Comments on Steve Sailer: iSteve: "Adventures in Very Recent Evolution"Unknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger51125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-50088941023496566322010-07-23T12:36:12.686-07:002010-07-23T12:36:12.686-07:00Because of Nazism, race-based slavery in America, ...Because of Nazism, race-based slavery in America, and Jewish power in America, we are not supposed to talk about certain racial facts and realities. <br />But not all liberals and PC conservatives are alike. <br />Of course, there are dumb liberals and dumb conservatives--especially Christian ones--who really believe or at least try to believe that race is all a myth and that we are all the same either due to evolution or God. <br /><br />But there are many other liberals and PC conservatives who will say one thing in public but think another in private. I know this cuz I've lifelong friends who are liberal. In public, they'll say all the PC bs but if I get into a no-holds-barred discussion of race and racial problems with them behind closed doors, they sound rather like Steve Sailer. Some of these are Jews. In face, I've known many Jews who've told me, "yeah, Jews control the media, Jews are smarter,", but they'll never say it in public. They can speak honestly with me because we all grew up together and we all know eachother's secrets. <br /><br />So, it's not so much that Wade hasn't made a difference among liberals and PC conservatives; it's just that liberals and PC conservatives have mastered the art of pretending it hasn't affected them. <br /><br />It's all part of the love/leave paradox among whites regarding blacks.<br />You'll notice most whites of all stripes prefer to leave areas that are heavily black. They wanna live in mostly white areas. But in order to safely take leave from black areas, one must be successful. To be successful, one has to be PC. Being PC means one has to profess LOVE for blacks. <br />If you say you don't like blacks, then you're fired, demoted, or not promoted. To succeed, you have to say you dearly LOVE those noble saintly blacks, the kin of MLK. But with the success & money you gain by professing sympathy toward blacks, you get to take leave from black areas. <br /><br />Similar was true in communist nations. You had to say you hated greed, wealth, and privilege and loved the working class... in order to leave the factory floor and rise up the bureaucratic hierarchy where you enjoyed greed, wealth,and privilege. And notice that in the Middle Ages, one had to embrace the humble faith of Jesus to rise up as kings, princes, and popes(and lead rather unChristian lifestyles). <br /><br />It's the asme old song with a different meaning and a different beat.adsasdfasdfasdfdsfasnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-4150862534178322412010-07-23T09:58:34.464-07:002010-07-23T09:58:34.464-07:00And most of Bob's genes ARE your genes. You...<i>And most of Bob's genes ARE your genes. You're unduly focused on the person. </i><br /><br />To clarify, why would one of "your" genes favor the rest of "your" genes over the copies of itself found in its ethnic kinsmen? You're thinking of your genome as an indivisible unit, so you're really not even talking about genes at all!ben tillmannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-77060193917841497412010-07-23T09:49:38.335-07:002010-07-23T09:49:38.335-07:00No, Ben, that's not the biological imperative....<i>No, Ben, that's not the biological imperative. The imperative is to get MY genes downstream, the best way possible. Bob from Omaha may have similar genes, but they're not MINE.</i><br /><br />And most of Bob's genes ARE your genes. You're unduly focused on the person. The person is neither the beginning nor the end of biological organization. Why do you think that you own your genes rather than the other way around?<br /><br />Moreover, you're forgetting that what will go into the future is not the genes in your body but <i>copies</i> of them that will reside in the bodies of future humans (your descendants) just as copies of those same genes currently reside in Bob. Your genes can achieve their goal -- the survival of copies of themselves -- through Bob as well as through you.ben tillmannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-1174214085625821352010-07-22T17:53:52.515-07:002010-07-22T17:53:52.515-07:00There was supposedly one Shang king who would fill...<i>There was supposedly one Shang king who would fill large pools with liquor and hang barbecued meat above the pools, then float around in a boat with his concubines, drinking and eating to his heart's content. Sounds like a fantasy to me, but it may have been true. Actually, considering some of the outrageous things I saw in China, I believe it.</i><br /><br />Kings lived that way. They could afford it; afford to live fantastic and outrageous lifestyles impossible for anyone else.<br /><br />There were a few 11th century English kings who literally ate and/or drank themselves to death. Who would have stopped them, or wanted to?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-35417204544510706732010-07-22T12:00:23.384-07:002010-07-22T12:00:23.384-07:00The CCR5 gene, delta 32, which confers immunity to...The CCR5 gene, delta 32, which confers immunity to Bubonic Plague, developed among Northern European populations during the 300 or so years that the plague invested that area of Europe.<br /><br />That's a remarkably short time - 15 generations.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-45660510590996122422010-07-22T08:53:21.635-07:002010-07-22T08:53:21.635-07:00"Of course, you do -- or at least healthy peo..."Of course, you do -- or at least healthy people do -- to the extent they're the same as yours."<br /><br />No, Ben, that's not the biological imperative. The imperative is to get MY genes downstream, the best way possible. Bob from Omaha may have similar genes, but they're not MINE. If I were childless then yes - I would rather support Bob from Omaha's genes then Aaron Rosenthal from White Plains. But if my daughter marries Aaron Rosenthal, or Lee Sam-jung - then I'll thrown my support behind the new genetic stream. At least that seems to be what the WASP elite in America believes.Peter Anoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-80330578255700782412010-07-22T07:31:00.931-07:002010-07-22T07:31:00.931-07:00Wade in Before the Dawn notes that there is more g...Wade in Before the Dawn notes that there is more genetic variation in species closer to their ancestral origin. People developed in Africa. It is a stretch to imply that Sub-Saharan black genetic variation discredits the concept of race. It only makes it more complicated. Which is bound to happen as more human genomes get decoded and classified. So what?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-920701700211117772010-07-22T01:08:10.586-07:002010-07-22T01:08:10.586-07:00I'd like to hear Cochran elaborate, since Stev...<i>I'd like to hear Cochran elaborate, since Steve has banged that drum so many times.</i><br /><br />TGGP: I believe the comment is in response to the idea that (for example) a non-African may be in practice more similar to an African on the bulk of their non-functional genes. The argument as I remember it from 10,000 Year Explosion is that while this is possible for any given gene, once you start looking at the whole genome (or even a small subset of the genome) this is impossible except in impossibly huge and only theoretical populations.<br /><br />I don't think it's in response to what you think it is, which is the drum that Steve bangs fairly often that Africans are only more diverse on non-functional genes. Which I think may be true, but I'm not entirely sure of (I've got fairly high confidence this is closer to true than it isn't for the West African pops that are Black in the USA though).Mattnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-60865176956153332010-07-21T22:44:05.055-07:002010-07-21T22:44:05.055-07:00"But Steve - what you, or at least a lot of y..."But Steve - what you, or at least a lot of your commenters, don't seem to have fully internalized is that "race" really doesn't exist in the traditional 19th century way." <br />...<br />It's not clear that race existent in the way you think it did in the 19th century either--<br /><br />The starting point with race is ancestry that can be traced back to<br />different historical branches of the human species-- <br /><br />"Professor Fried has correctly pointed out that there is no careful and objective definition of race that would permit delimitation of races as exact, nonoverlapping, discrete entities. Indeed, such criteria do not exist because if they did, we would not have races, we would have distinct species. (Dobzhansky in Mead<br />1968, 165)"Chucknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-8045853729094639012010-07-21T22:06:34.588-07:002010-07-21T22:06:34.588-07:00Bentillman said:"And they're starting fro...Bentillman said:"And they're starting from the flawed premise that characteristics define race. That may be how we define species of butterflies or beetles, but we use characteristics as a proxy to enable us to infer common ancestry or relatedness."<br /><br />Portraying race as "commonalities" and not "common ancestry" is part of the strategy used to deny it. I came across this in Stanfords encyclopedia of philosophy -- the author engaged in will-fill ignorance about the meaning of the term. And refuse to update his piece. <br /><br />By redefining race as "commonality" <br />they you point out that arbitrary groups are being made "fat Asians, belong, with fat whites" to the fat race" or "Are you saying that these people act different just because the color of their skin"<br /><br />This is a game --Chucknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-60368164667095446012010-07-21T21:55:37.713-07:002010-07-21T21:55:37.713-07:00Wrong! Han Chinese are rather genetically related...Wrong! Han Chinese are rather genetically related.<br /> <br />Anon said: "One small point of refinement about the "Asian" or "Chinese" race: it probably doesn't exist as one unitary race. As Han China grew through the dynastic ages, it slowly swallowed other nations and those nations' peoples. <br /><br /><br />Han are pretty close. Different Han populations have an average Fst value of .002. In European, it's around .009. The Chinese-European population difference is .1100. It's a bit bigger. <br /><br />http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2009/11/population-substructure-within-china/comment-page-1/Chucknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-28715603405264923942010-07-21T21:51:26.641-07:002010-07-21T21:51:26.641-07:00Anonymous said:
"Morning Edition (NPR) did a ...Anonymous said:<br />"Morning Edition (NPR) did a story just this morning about the serious need for black organ (and marrow) donors. "<br />=====================<br /><br /><i> "in British Columbia...for the years 1992 to 1997 inclusive...There were 236 organ donors and 766 transplant recipients. Comparing racial groups between donors and recipients, Caucasians contributed the most donors (93.2%) but received proportionately fewer organs (73.4%, P<0.000001). Orientals donated 3.4% of all organs but constituted 14.4% of all recipients (P<0.00001). Non-Oriental, non-Caucasians (predominantly Asian Indians and Native Aboriginals) constituted 3.4% of all donors and 12.2% of all recipients (P=0.0001). </i><br /><br />http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=1852605<br /><br />Maybe immigrants think their organs will be sold for profit by corrupt doctors, since likely that happens in China and India. In China they use executed prisoners as a source of organs. It is believed that about 7000 or 8000 people are executed every year in China. <br /><br />This is another example of a low-trust mentality being imported into Canada with immigrants.Melykinnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-54416225690151351432010-07-21T20:40:45.012-07:002010-07-21T20:40:45.012-07:00I'd like to hear Cochran elaborate, since Stev...I'd like to hear Cochran elaborate, since Steve has banged that drum so many times.TGGPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11017651009634767649noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-6266534600299302002010-07-21T20:13:33.041-07:002010-07-21T20:13:33.041-07:00Liberalbiorealism wrote:
Why not imagine that a qu...Liberalbiorealism wrote:<br /><i>Why not imagine that a quite different set of genes and alleles might support high IQ in one race from that of another? Shouldn't the forces of selection have moved them on quite separate genetic paths? </i><br />==========================<br /><br />Interesting. And could it be that slightly different types of intelligence evolved in different races? <br /><br />Apparently lactose tolerance evolved independently in Europe and in North Africa. Maybe different genes are involved. <br /><br />And maybe protection from alcoholism evolved independently in East Asia and in Europe, and the two use completely different mechanisms.Melykinnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-506339143339808912010-07-21T18:48:02.869-07:002010-07-21T18:48:02.869-07:00Morning Edition (NPR) did a story just this mornin...Morning Edition (NPR) did a story just this morning about the serious need for black organ (and marrow) doners. The unspoken bit was that the reason blacks don't donate is because they're afraid whites will benefit. They wanted to say it, but only brushed up against the line.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-80584282574368744092010-07-21T17:33:44.877-07:002010-07-21T17:33:44.877-07:00Wait a second, Mr. Cochran, don't leave yet! ...Wait a second, Mr. Cochran, don't leave yet! I don't know what you meant. Are you in agreement with the information TH provided below you? <br /><br />If I may speculate: I don't think Mr. Sailer was saying Lewontin's Fallacy isn't a fallacy if restricted to junk DNA. <br />I think what Mr. Sailer meant by "this" in <i>This is true for neutral ("junk") genes that aren't selected not for functional genes</i> was the assertion that there is more genetic diversity among Africans than everyone else. That is the implication I got from "Seven Dumb Ideas". <br /><br />(I think this is an editing flub. Steve was in a hurry, and debunked more-diversity-among-Africans, clarified about junk DNA, and then slipped a reference to Mr. Lewontin in between them, by accident.)<br /><br />I think pretty much everyone agrees that Lewontin's is a fallacy at any level of analysis, except perhaps in a completely different form; i.e. the assertion that when you move from a human population to the whole human species, <b>numeric diversity increases by less than a factor of two</b>. Do I have that right?B322https://www.blogger.com/profile/18257802768718375656noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-7431087850612951132010-07-21T16:45:50.196-07:002010-07-21T16:45:50.196-07:00'Let's see ... wife gives birth to a baby ...'Let's see ... wife gives birth to a baby who doesn't look anything like wife's husband.<br />Hmmhmmmhmmm ... I'm stumped'<br /><br />A bummer... what was the headline?<br /><br />'Adventures in Very Recent Evolution'sj071noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-46919905045591595052010-07-21T16:43:27.237-07:002010-07-21T16:43:27.237-07:00'Let's see ... wife gives birth to a baby ...'Let's see ... wife gives birth to a baby who doesn't look anything like wife's husband.<br />Hmmhmmmhmmm ... I'm stumped'<br /><br />A bummer... what was the headline?<br /><br />'Adventures in Very Recent Evolution'sj071noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-18139185852214238832010-07-21T16:10:08.275-07:002010-07-21T16:10:08.275-07:00To expand on that, height correlates with health c...To expand on that, height correlates with health <i>ceteris paribus</i> -- i.e., in this case, if the genes are the same. And the whole point was that there were a number of genes that varied from person to person, in which case your assertion that height is a measure of general well being begs the question.ben tillmannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-82161120144164129182010-07-21T16:00:21.075-07:002010-07-21T16:00:21.075-07:00Height is in a sense a measure of general well bei...<i>Height is in a sense a measure of general well being.</i><br /><br />No, it's not.ben tillmannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-16701130701537160842010-07-21T15:52:30.831-07:002010-07-21T15:52:30.831-07:00Race is essentially statistical, yet most people i...<i>Race is essentially statistical, yet most people insist on thinking in boolean categories.</i><br /><br />Race has nothing to do with statistics or characteristics; it's all about ancestry.<br /><br /><i>So, if race is real, there must be some attribute X such that all black people are X, and no white people are X. But as we know, there is no such X.</i><br /><br />And they're starting from the flawed premise that characteristics define race. That may be how we define species of butterflies or beetles, but we use characteristics as a proxy to enable us to infer common ancestry or relatedness.ben tillmannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-32568826320680860042010-07-21T15:50:47.337-07:002010-07-21T15:50:47.337-07:00Now I admit that my ignorance of genetics is rathe...Now I admit that my ignorance of genetics is rather considerable, but the Wade article raises a question in my mind that I've wondered about and can't say I've ever seen addressed. (For all I know it has an obvious, well known answer, but I just don't know it.)<br /><br />The article makes a point regarding genes for skin color that seems at first blush quite relevant to genes correlated to IQ (and by extension many other traits).<br /><br />Apparently there's been small enough gene flow between the races that similar changes in skin color are reflected in different genes. <br /><br />Why not believe the same for genes that support higher IQs? I'd expect that such genes might be among those quite aggressively selected for across races (which doesn't imply, I should add, that the rate of change in IQ is the same). Why not imagine that a quite different set of genes and alleles might support high IQ in one race from that of another? Shouldn't the forces of selection have moved them on quite separate genetic paths? <br /><br />And wouldn't that potentially make finding useful correlations of genes with IQ that work across all races problematic? That is, it might be possible to discover useful correlations within races (or perhaps even narrower subpopulations), but not between them.<br /><br />Putting the point another way, we may never reach a day when we can say: here is the set of genes involved in high IQ, and this race over here has more of them than that race over there, so, for that sole reason, the average IQ of this race is going to be higher than that of that race.<br /><br />And, if that's a problem for IQ, I wonder if isn't a similar problem with all sorts of traits and dispositions. <br /><br />With regard to genes for IQ, I wonder if it may be that the only method to see how genes across all races contribute to high IQ is to uncover the actual physiological mechanisms that support high IQ, and then determine which genes in which races affect those mechanisms in suitable ways (and presumably to differing degrees, given the differing averages).liberal biorealisthttp://liberalbiorealism.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-46955281689689626382010-07-21T15:41:57.610-07:002010-07-21T15:41:57.610-07:00But that's not the way evolution works. It'...<i>But that's not the way evolution works. It's all about me getting my own personal genes downstream (or you yours). I don't care about Bob from Omaha's genes.</i><br /><br />Of course, you do -- or at least healthy people do -- to the extent they're the same as yours.ben tillmannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-44968591431688036792010-07-21T15:25:36.189-07:002010-07-21T15:25:36.189-07:00Two more Bible incidents:
In Exodus 32, the Israe...Two more Bible incidents:<br /><br />In Exodus 32, the Israelites scandalously get drunk and party in celebration of Aaron's crafting of the Golden Calf. In 1 Samuel chapter 1, the priest is worried that Hannah has scandalously entered the temple drunk. Hannah explains that she is not drunk, merely in an emotional state.<br /><br />The neighboring Egyptians and Mesopotamians drank beer and wine. In the Gilgamesh story, wine drinking is characterized as a sign of civilized status -- Gilgamesh's wild man friend had to be taught to enjoy it.MSGnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-33049188251266192342010-07-21T15:17:50.927-07:002010-07-21T15:17:50.927-07:00'I'm stumped"
Race is but a social c...'I'm stumped"<br /><br />Race is but a social construct...why shouldn't the child be different from its parents?<br /><br />Or is this a case of the Nigerians' accelerated adaptation to a more northern latitude?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com