tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post2777023687269841862..comments2024-03-27T18:24:19.683-07:00Comments on Steve Sailer: iSteve: The jobs Americans just will doUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger98125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-1120733257888487902012-12-29T18:43:28.203-08:002012-12-29T18:43:28.203-08:00when they're retired, surrounded by their gran...<i>when they're retired, surrounded by their grandchildren and living in their paid-off homes, they'll see what an error they made. "I could have lived in a massive soulless suburb, had one child and no grandkids, and made partner," they'll think. Ah, but by then, it will be too late.</i><br /><br />But there is a cost. They will be proles. If they had made it to partnership in a biglaw firm, they would have been upper middle class.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-23152250335455813712012-12-29T16:48:37.969-08:002012-12-29T16:48:37.969-08:00NOTA,
Thank you for your excellent reply. As a m...NOTA,<br /><br />Thank you for your excellent reply. As a matter of fact, on the topic of universal college education, we agree more than disagree. I, myself, was a high school dropout. I left school and joined the Navy. After the service, I got my GED and eventually went to college (at 30 years old) and did very well. I became an English teacher, but later got into I.T. and am now the I.T. director for the local school system. Not rushing off to college after high school is hardly a death sentence.<br /><br />My daughter is a college graduate. Her brother, on the other hand, chose not to go to college. I fully supported that decision. He wants to be out working with his hands. He's done farm work and construction and seems to be living a very satisfying life.<br /><br />In fact, I wrote an op-ed piece for our local paper some years ago about the folly of our society requiring college degrees for jobs where they aren't really needed. And I've been very supportive of school-to-work programs in our district that get kids out working in the community in areas of interest. Some of these kids leave high school and go to work for the folks they've interned with. I think that's great.<br /><br />Your points are all well taken. Thanks again.<br /><br /><br /><br />Jeronimus,<br /><br />Thank you also for your reply. Seriously. Your honesty is appreciated. In light of your remarks, I would say my original post was not helpful. I see now that the posts I read here were not, for the most part, responding to that particular article, but rather were driven by a tremendous antipathy for the views typically expressed on the editorial pages of liberal publications like the Times. And I share many of those views. So you and I are, alas, enemies. But at least we can be honest about it. <br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-18456420598855824452012-12-29T14:22:11.973-08:002012-12-29T14:22:11.973-08:00Vince:
It may be that you simply won't agree ...Vince:<br /><br />It may be that you simply won't agree with a lot of what you read here. But there are a couple background assumptions that might make a lot of the comments make more sense:<br /><br />a. A lot of us strongly suspect that the pressure for almost everyone to go to college is a bad thing, both for the whole society, and for the marginal students.<br /><br />b. A lot of us also have come to see some media sources, particularly the New York Times, as being captured by the worldview of a particular social class of people. Call them the class of successful, smart, urban and suburban East Coast professionals. And this worldview has some consistent blind spots.<br /><br />As far as (a) goes, I went to a respectable large state university. I know people who got liberal arts degrees, and found that these basically qualified them for jobs as clerks or salesmen. Many of those people went seriously into debt to get those degrees. In the intervening years, the cost of tuition has gone up, but also the fraction of people going to college has gone up, and more and more employers are usnig a college degree to filter out the stupid and nonfunctional applicants. The result is that to get even a minimally decent job, it is more or less necessary to get a college degree, for which you must go tens of thousands of dollars into debt even if you go to a perfectly normal state university. Overall. this is a horrible change in the world--a guy can get the same job his dad had, but where his dad got it at 18 with no debt, he gets it at 21 with 30K of debt--which has helpfully been made impossible to discharge in bankruptcy, so even if he loses his job and house and ends up living in his dad's basement, he still will owe it forever. <br /><br />My guess is that many of the people going to midrange and lower universities for liberal arts degrees (I'm not sure a BA in English from Yale isn't helpful in finding a good job, but a BA in English from the University of Illinois isn't all that helpful.) would do a lot better to look for blue-collar skilled sorts of jobs that paid well, and that as a society, we'd do better to try to keep those jobs around. I'm very much in favor of everyone getting what education they can benefit from and enjoy--I'm a working scientist, so it's not like I undervalue education or learning or knowledge--but I don't think it's so great to go deeply into debt to become qualified to work as a barista at Starbucks or stocking shelves at Barnes and Noble. <br /><br />The numbers on unemployment for college degree holders vs non degree holders tells us something about their prospects, but not exactly what we want to know. I'm pretty sure a BA in English from the University of Illinois helps you a little getting a job and having a better life. But so does being smart and literate and functional enough to get that degree. And on the other side, four years of foregone income and a big pile of student loan debt have some costs. And the people who really get screwed are the ones who go to college, run up some debts, but then don't finish. If you are marginally capable of getting through college--you were an okay but not great student in high school, your intro classes are quite challenging but with a lot of work you can manage them--then it's likely you will eventually flunk out or drop out, taking your debt with you. <br /><br />If most of the people tempted to forgo college for a good job now are drawn from the marginal college students, then my guess is that it's a win. Those jobs may not stick around forever, but those guys may still come out ahead by not going. And if you're a marginal student becasue of being irresponsible at 18, you may not be so marginal at 22, going to college after having worked four years in the oil fields. NOTAnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-8392054711041444202012-12-29T10:57:44.550-08:002012-12-29T10:57:44.550-08:00The times should worry far more about the EBT, Tan...The times should worry far more about the EBT, Tanf, or medicaid running out. They are far less sustainable than oil. One look at Sandy or Katrina should give them nightmares as it appears that the educated elite can't deal with emergencies or the Corzine crowd on wall street. That 50,000 dollar income youth in the redoubt is better off than the ivy league toadies blowing up the economy in DC or NYC.indyjonesoutherenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-82561513953631225532012-12-29T08:54:00.838-08:002012-12-29T08:54:00.838-08:00Thanks for posting, Vince R! Yours is the same eli...Thanks for posting, Vince R! Yours is the same elite view that said Americans had nothing to fear from Dems re Second Amendment rights. <br /><br />For years the gun nut stockpilers have been mocked as irrational paranoids. The nuanced, perceptive view from genius liberal land was that there was no future attack coming on gun rights.<br /><br />Now the leftists have dropped the charade of tolerance for the Second Amendment and the gun nuts were right all along.<br /><br />The same dynamic is playing out re Obama's faux Christianity by the way.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-64048632393507884712012-12-29T08:21:14.273-08:002012-12-29T08:21:14.273-08:00Vince R.
I don't care about persuading you or...Vince R.<br /><br />I don't care about persuading you or people like you. It is good to make extreme interpretations of liberal writings, and finding as much fault with liberals as possible. this is MindWar, it's not reasonable discourse with reasonable gentlemen who have some common ground about what is good and what is evil.<br /><br />I don't care to persuade you; I care to defeat you. That is all.Jeronimushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16275855316988361431noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-73808519588629198562012-12-29T07:55:23.722-08:002012-12-29T07:55:23.722-08:00I'm a liberal, one that many of you would prob...I'm a liberal, one that many of you would probably dispise because of real differences in the way we see the world, but also due to preconceived notions about how a liberal thinks. I must admit that I also have preconceived notions about right-wing conservatives. And I'll have to say that some of those notions are borne out by the quality of thinking displayed in this piece by Mr. Sailer and the comments that follow.<br /><br />The NYT piece in question does make a couple of assertions that one might possibly take exception to: certainly the first line about college being "the surest path to a decent job", etc., is one (though all studies show that the jobless rate right now is much higher among non-college grads than those with a degree). Another assertion one might question (though I don't) is that the choice to leave school and work in the oil fields is a "risky decision". But nowhere does the reporter himself claim that it is a "wrong" decision. As much weight is given to the statements of some of the young people making that choice as to the school administrators who do "worry" about it. However, in this article, neither the reporter nor, by association, the N.Y. Times themselves express "worry" about the situation. Sailer has read his own prejudices into his understanding (or lack, thereof) of the article. <br /><br />I'm sure you can all do better than that. But when I see the level of discussion displayed here, it's easy for me to dismiss conservatives as unable to conduct thoughtful, perceptive discourse, prefering to rant wildly than read (and think) deliberately. Come on! Give me a reason to take you seriously. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-77459578822703644072012-12-29T06:53:39.377-08:002012-12-29T06:53:39.377-08:00"this is how most of australia and canada is ..."this is how most of australia and canada is as well. white guys with only a high school education, making 80,000 australian or canadian dollars a year to do an honest day's work of skilled blue collar labor in the mines or the oil fields. do people "not want to live" in canada or australia either? seems to be, half the world would move to canada or australia if they could.<br /><br />so much for the idea that this phenomenon is localized to north dakota and the bakken because nobody wants to live there." <br /><br />Great, they pay more money than you make now, and white guys love this type of physical labor, so when are you moving, jody?<br />Truthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17286755693955361308noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-11334293096562609492012-12-29T06:47:26.625-08:002012-12-29T06:47:26.625-08:00Anony-mouse, I can't speak to the Midwest, but...Anony-mouse, I can't speak to the Midwest, but I can to my native New England.<br /><br />Vermont: Unemployment rate is 5.4, foreign born population is 3.9%. <br /><br />New Hampshire: Unemployment rate is 5.7, foreign born population is 5.2%.<br /><br />Rhode Island: Unemployment rate is 10.5, foreign born population is 12.9%.<br /><br />As we can see here, your thesis falls to pieces.<br /><br />But the real monkey wrench in the works?<br /><br />Massachusetts: 6.5% unemployment rate, 14.7% foreign born.<br /><br />My metric is education:<br />Percentage of Massachusetts residents with bachelors degree or better is 38.7%.<br />New Hampshire's is 33.1%.<br />Vermont's is 33.8%.<br />Rhode Island's is 30.6%.<br /><br />As I've pointed out before on this site, Massachusetts is the honors course program that drives the New England economy; Rhode Island is the short bus.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-52151698255747342032012-12-28T19:38:58.765-08:002012-12-28T19:38:58.765-08:00@Mr. Anime
Debt is bondage. When you are in debt ...@Mr. Anime<br /><br />Debt is bondage. When you are in debt to a person, that person can convince (if not order) you to do things that are against your best interests. This isn't rocket science or brain surgery.<br /><br />It's like this: if you own a business, your unmarried employees aren't going to have as much invested into the business as your married employees (with kids.) If you're a guy who's looking for sex in the back of a limo, you're more likely to convince the girl who *doesn't* have access to a limo to fool around in the back of the limo, than you would be able to convince a girl who goes yachting on a monthly basis. The guy who's worried about paying tuition for his kids is going to accept more overtime than the guy who has no attachments. The girl who's unaccustomed to *eating* properly handled meat (never mind Grade A Prime Rib in a Michelin-level restaurant) is far easier to convince to give a little sucky-sucky in the back of a limo, than the affluent girl who critiques your choice in wine and blithely mentions the time she traded bon mots with Gore Vidal at the Met.<br /><br />It's all about turning us into slaves. It's *always* been about that one thing. It's about consolidating money/value in as few hands as possible. Shut down factories in America, rebuild then in cheaper areas and put the savings in the hands of the (far less numerous) stockholders. Remove pension plans, give bonuses to the top 5% of business executives. Take advantage of illegal immigrant labour and give them primers on how to abuse the system (welfare, Section 8, SIC, ER usage, etc.), then re-offer the jobs to Americans at a 20+% salary cut if they're caught using the scabs (best example-Tyson Foods used to pay $15/hour for chicken deboners. In the early 90's, their Georgia plants began to use illegals. When the media caught wind during the first GWB term, Tyson got rid of the illegals and offered the jobs to American citizens at $10/hour. Interestingly enough, those jobs were swamped with applicants, even at the reduced pay, because the unemployment rates in the area were so high that the people were desperate for any source of money.) <br /><br />It's the old joke, "A million here, a million there, and soon you're talking about some real money!", on a macro scale. A factory here, a factory there, and now America only produces components and food. A bonus here, a bonus there, and what was a set of $10K bonuses for the most profitable workers in the Sixties are now $100+K bonuses for any guy who has the right connections (school, experience, family) even if the recipient is a failure (Golden Parachutes, anyone?) Can't use IQ tests because of "racial bias", so universities become billion dollar entities to provide a proxy (and has made the mid 5-figure corporate earner with a degree in English Lit or Gender Studies a stereotype.) It's turtles all the way down, getting smaller and smaller as the top turtles continue to get fat. MaMu1977http://www.youtube.conoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-82267718547620221302012-12-28T16:00:44.670-08:002012-12-28T16:00:44.670-08:00this is how most of australia and canada is as wel...this is how most of australia and canada is as well. white guys with only a high school education, making 80,000 australian or canadian dollars a year to do an honest day's work of skilled blue collar labor in the mines or the oil fields. do people "not want to live" in canada or australia either? seems to be, half the world would move to canada or australia if they could.<br /><br />so much for the idea that this phenomenon is localized to north dakota and the bakken because nobody wants to live there. what about texas and the eagle ford? same thing happening there, yet it's omitted from the discussion because...people want to live in texas.<br /><br />as other people have said, this is a nightmare scenario for our year 2012 liberals.<br /><br />and yeah, obama was dead wrong about the green energy stuff. but what isn't he dead wrong about? he mocked "drill baby drill", but isn't that EXACTLY what is actually working?<br /><br />and contrary to some posters here, obama is definitely impeding the US energy sector. it's growing despite him, not because of him. he's blocking plenty of projects.<br /><br />the energy industry is the only industry even growing. if there's any real growth in that 1% GDP growth in the US, it's almost exclusively from oil and natural gas.<br /><br />stupid, evil, dumb, conservative white guys, figuring out how to get more oil and natural gas from tight rock formations. what idiots. what backwards relics. america could use a lot less of them and a lot more harvard lawyers.<br /><br />the great irony of america is that it could not be built today. lawyers would block everything, and the great american industrialists of 150 to 100 years ago, and huge scale infrastruture projects of 60 to 50 years ago, would never be allowed to happen.jodynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-52026443276694882422012-12-28T07:34:09.249-08:002012-12-28T07:34:09.249-08:00"JSM said...
White folks getting a college d..."JSM said...<br /><br />White folks getting a college degree without debt.<br /><br />Aha! That's it. There's the rub among the piper-payers who call the NY Times' tune."<br /><br />Yes, that has become an obvious theme in the conventional wisdom as spread by the media: whatever you do, make sure that you're always in debt. Why being in debt is such a good thing is never explained. Obviously, us being in debt is good for someone.Mr. Anonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-33070825429093587492012-12-28T05:09:13.280-08:002012-12-28T05:09:13.280-08:00Anon 7:02, Brazilians aren't Portuguese, they&...Anon 7:02, Brazilians aren't Portuguese, they're just former colonials that speak the language.<br /><br />Cape Verdeans, on the other hand, self-identify as Portuguese when they want to be accepted by whites and Cape Verdean when they're being black, and Rhode Island has plenty, as does Massachusetts.<br /><br />Massachusetts and Rhode Island essentially have the same demographic profile for the top 7 ethnicities in each state. After that, though, Massachusetts lists Polish, Scottish, Scotch-Irish, Indian and Swedish. Rhode Island has Puerto Rican, Dominican, Chinese and Guatemalan.<br /><br />The bottom 15% of your population defines your state as much as the top 15%.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-46852692356512335902012-12-27T23:11:33.964-08:002012-12-27T23:11:33.964-08:00No, Steve's interpertation was perfectly reaso...<i>No, Steve's interpertation was perfectly reasonable. One needs to take into account the entire body of the Time's reporting when considering any one article.</i><br /><br />Not only the "entire body of the Time's reporting" but also the body of Steve's work. He's previously mentioned that immigration deprives Americans of the benefits of boomtowns. ben tillmannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-6196896225198230832012-12-27T20:32:42.466-08:002012-12-27T20:32:42.466-08:00I was car-free for several years in my 20's an...<i>I was car-free for several years in my 20's and it was great. I lived in Boston on 9 bucks an hour in 1995 and was budgeted to the penny. But I was also quite care free and able to think clearly and had free time to breathe and live.</i><br /><br />Try living without a car in Middle America. Thinking clearly? No, thinking like a sanctimonious East Coast big city yokel.David Davenporthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03315090179595817174noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-18713876785733660362012-12-27T18:38:07.226-08:002012-12-27T18:38:07.226-08:00"Also these kids are better off going to coll..."Also these kids are better off going to college because at least they'll have a backup plan when the local wells run dry and the industry skips town."<br /><br />Ijit.<br />Work the oil fields now, save money; when the oil runs dry THEN go to school, on the funds you saved working, so NO DEBT.<br /><br />*No debt.* <br />White folks getting a college degree without debt. <br />Aha! That's it. There's the rub among the piper-payers who call the NY Times' tune.JSMnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-61763675085037588872012-12-27T18:29:30.499-08:002012-12-27T18:29:30.499-08:00The Times makes this scenario sound like some kind...<em>The Times makes this scenario sound like some kind of nightmare.</em><br /><br />Because to the kind of person who writes for the Times, it does sound like a nightmare. Hard work? Outdoors? Plundering the earth for fossil fuels? Living around people who have never seen a Broadway show or spent a summer backpacking across Europe, who drive pickup trucks and go hunting for food and fun?<br /><br />To a Times writer, that's not just a nightmare, it's like all his nightmares run together in a montage.Cail Corishevhttp://cailcorishev.wordpress.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-46082538625454628772012-12-27T17:56:39.366-08:002012-12-27T17:56:39.366-08:00Of course the NYT is upset. Some white people are ...Of course the NYT is upset. Some white people are catching a break. They are doing well for themselves. And EVEN WORSE they are doing well without any diversity.<br /><br />And we can't have that now, can we?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-62258309860880706082012-12-27T17:49:41.983-08:002012-12-27T17:49:41.983-08:00What exactly is "wrong" with being 18 ye...<i> What exactly is "wrong" with being 18 years old and earning 50K a year? Usually your expenses are pretty low at this time of life. I think its a great deal. Sign me up.</i><br /><br />Hell. Just sign me up for the 18 part. <br /><br />Please.<br /><br />I'm not greedy.TontoBubbaGoldsteinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15084529465502345934noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-49533589169401985062012-12-27T17:44:13.280-08:002012-12-27T17:44:13.280-08:00What exactly is "wrong" with being 18 ye...<i> What exactly is "wrong" with being 18 years old and earning 50K a year? Usually your expenses are pretty low at this time of life. I think its a great deal. Sign me up.</i><br /><br />Hell. Just sign me up for the 18 part. <br /><br />Please.<br /><br />I'm not greedy.TontoBubbaGoldsteinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15084529465502345934noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-45493644858761457722012-12-27T16:44:09.865-08:002012-12-27T16:44:09.865-08:00"the huge labor shortage in the entire state ..."the huge labor shortage in the entire state of ND shows the unwillingness of most unemployed Americans to work."<br /><br />Now be fair; the lack of housing is the big problem. A lot of people don't want to live in huge man-camp trailer cities in BFE. At least the North Slope had dorms for these guys, but I don't know if they've tried that in the Bakken yet.Carolnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-55993833728044492502012-12-27T14:04:11.569-08:002012-12-27T14:04:11.569-08:00If Americans were willing to work as a cashier in ...If Americans were willing to work as a cashier in Williston no one would be paid $24/hour to do it.<br /><br />In fact the huge labor shortage in the entire state of ND shows the unwillingness of most unemployed Americans to work.<br /><br />And its not just ND. KY and neighboring VA, CO and neighboring NE, RI and (almost) neighboring NH/VT have such different unemployment rates that the laziness of able-bodied unemployed Americans is obvious.<br /><br />My favorite example is HI, and the many states with higher unemployment rate. Just think, people would rather not work in Feb in Chicago than work that same month in Honolulu.anony-mousenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-71420326282201136512012-12-27T14:01:12.295-08:002012-12-27T14:01:12.295-08:00"I have a degree in physics from a well-respe..."I have a degree in physics from a well-respected UC school and I have been unemployed for the last two years. Certainly, unemployment/underemployment for recent hard science majors is far rarer than for bulls**t majors, but it is still high to a disturbing extent, I'd say around or above 20 per cent (vs. 54% for recent college grads overall)."<br /><br />Well hell, Son, take a job selling cars or something until JPL comes a'callin'.Truthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17286755693955361308noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-63409357677209319642012-12-27T13:24:59.670-08:002012-12-27T13:24:59.670-08:00Obama, being reelected, is poised to kill kill kil...Obama, being reelected, is poised to kill kill kill brown energy with a vengeance. He's from Chicago, so all he cares about is the FIRE industries (Finance, Insurance, Real Estate). His cronies Soros and Buffett, the Carlos Slims of America, are not invested. So they benefit. And Green fantasies are more opportunities for him to make (even richer) guys like Buffett and Soros and the California VC crowd that backed him. Brown energy in places like Montana just benefit wildcat oil companies which are political enemies of Obama who in turn is a creature of the liberal coastal elites.<br /><br />Look at the handgun ban working its way through the Senate, sponsored by Feinstein. Its revolvers only. It will fail (the House won't pass it), piss off White gun owners, but Dems don't care. Because Obama will just enact it by fiat like everything else he does, such as the coming Amnesty for 20 million Mexicans, to media / NYT approval.<br /><br />Obama "won" and does not need or want to take into consideration White middle/working class voters. Just Buffett, Soros, and the Sandhill Road guys.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-63843266830742147272012-12-27T13:23:36.167-08:002012-12-27T13:23:36.167-08:00Montana and N.Dak you could find a very few white...Montana and N.Dak you could find a very few whiter places in the USA but those places don't have oil or nat.gas.<br />Eastern Montana and North Dakota have some of the most challenging <br />environments in the USA. <br />CKnoreply@blogger.com