tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post4190044470095607747..comments2024-03-27T18:24:19.683-07:00Comments on Steve Sailer: iSteve: "Why Steve Sailer is wrong"Unknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger133125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-55121190916492021692009-06-29T12:26:56.035-07:002009-06-29T12:26:56.035-07:00"Since there is a one standard deviation diff..."Since there is a one standard deviation difference on average in cognitive ability, only about one-third of blacks score above the white median, not four-fifths."<br /><br />Correction: 16% of blacks score above the white median. (1-NORMDIST(100,85,15, 100)<br />25% of hispanics (1-NORMDIST(100,90,15, 100))<br /><br />I know, I know. It's mind blowing but makes sense in comparison to the other exam results you quoted.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-7524897375915734022009-06-12T16:37:49.160-07:002009-06-12T16:37:49.160-07:00I'm with anon. It's much more agreeable w...I'm with anon. It's much more agreeable when our enlightened (read: superior) authorities engage in intelligent dictation, and the rest of us STFU and listen to our orders. I think the soporific part is when they tell us our children are born guilty and so must pay for that guilt, and the deeds of their ancestors. No no, I think I find the part where we pay and the elite reaps the benefits might be the most peaceful aspect. No, hold that, the most tranquil part is where we must smile as our civilization is destroyed. Or maybe the part where we're evil, yet the innocent follow us around en masse. Then again, it's hard to top the part where the elite minority with the most agency in our woes does in its own territory pretty much exactly what it forbids to us.<br /><br />I'm about to take a nice, relaxing nap just thinking about it. Pretty much the opposite of combative.<br /><br />The only thing keeping me awake is the grim knowledge that anon finds the comments here "upsetting." There's nothing worse than a tummy ache.<br /><br />~ SvigorAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-45303882721149063352009-06-11T19:53:15.098-07:002009-06-11T19:53:15.098-07:00Wow, I find all of these comments really upsetting...Wow, I find all of these comments really upsetting. I went to Harvard and they tell me I have a high IQ and I happen to be a mixed race person. But if this is how people who perceive themselves to be intelligent (read: superior) engage in intelligent conversation, I would rather opt out. Just the combative tone in general is a real turnoff.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-76226152538031616732009-06-09T18:25:58.578-07:002009-06-09T18:25:58.578-07:00Svigor, if you actually explained your higher thou...<i>Svigor, if you actually explained your higher thoughts then maybe us lower beings could benefit.<br /><br />For example, I can't understand why I am a moron for saying that I do not know what it is like to be a black American... :)<br /><br />And I don't believe in certain knowledge or objective morality, so don't expect any virtue from my side. ;)</i> <br /><br />If someone else asks me to explain I will, but for now I'm assuming you're the only one who doesn't "get it" and I doubt my ability to explain it to you.<br /><br />If you're addressing someone else, your post makes sense. Otherwise it doesn't; most of your response is to points made by someone else.<br /><br />(If you don't believe in certainty, you might've cited this fact before you started yammering about "proof" of this or that. Now you just look like a conniver.)<br /><br />And yes, projecting your ignorance onto others makes you look like an ass, because in this case it's leftist boilerplate ( "racists" know nothing of NAMs). You just KNEW none of the white men here had any first hand knowledge of blacks or how they live.<br /><br />~ SvigorAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-83916024800864863682009-06-09T18:12:08.264-07:002009-06-09T18:12:08.264-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.B322https://www.blogger.com/profile/18257802768718375656noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-37263974226066299042009-06-09T15:31:00.942-07:002009-06-09T15:31:00.942-07:00For example, I can't understand why I am a mor...<i>For example, I can't understand why I am a moron for saying that I do not know what it is like to be a black American...</i> <br /> <br /><br /><br /><br />Just exhibit #642 in your catalog of dishonesty. You don't let your ignorance stop you from lecturing us on the topic of the supposed "socio-economic disadvantages" of American blacks, or the alleged apartheid" they live under.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-607944784378480162009-06-09T13:45:26.142-07:002009-06-09T13:45:26.142-07:00Svigor, if you actually explained your higher thou...Svigor, if you actually explained your higher thoughts then maybe us lower beings could benefit.<br /><br />For example, I can't understand why I am a moron for saying that I do not know what it is like to be a black American... :)<br /><br />And I don't believe in certain knowledge or objective morality, so don't expect any virtue from my side. ;)flex05noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-53344820608392362362009-06-09T10:00:55.205-07:002009-06-09T10:00:55.205-07:00Leave Flex alone, Svignor.
He can't help not ...Leave Flex alone, Svignor.<br /><br />He can't help not visiting the less fortunate areas of the US, as he's been socialized by his Islamic masters in the UK and their "no go" zones!<br /><br />BrutusAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-14026643894884590172009-06-08T18:47:40.139-07:002009-06-08T18:47:40.139-07:00When I went to Washington DC I didn't see any ...<i>When I went to Washington DC I didn't see any blacks even though there is a large concentration of them living there, kept out of sight. So what is your point?<br /></i> <br /> <br /><br /><br /><br />The point is that you don't know what you are talking about, as your moronic "voluntary apartheid" remarks confirm.<br /><br />But I'm familar with people like you from my dealings with our domesic liberals, so I'm 100% ceratin that no shadow of doubt will ever or can ever cloud your conviction that you are both completely correct and completely morally virtuous.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-25738643824949268332009-06-08T16:29:19.242-07:002009-06-08T16:29:19.242-07:00"they believe each of them has more in common...<i>"they believe each of them has more in common with the average Korean or Nubian than with each other"<br /><br />That's exactly what "even when the most distinct populations are considered and hundreds of loci are used, individuals are frequently more similar to members of other populations than to members of their own population" means.</i> <br /><br />How can you expect anyone with a three-digit IQ to take this seriously? Is it possible you're innumerate?Svigorhttp://www.majorityrights.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-92183527728490474122009-06-08T15:34:57.779-07:002009-06-08T15:34:57.779-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.B322https://www.blogger.com/profile/18257802768718375656noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-44258255441818037792009-06-08T14:13:42.453-07:002009-06-08T14:13:42.453-07:00"they believe each of them has more in common..."they believe each of them has more in common with the average Korean or Nubian than with each other"<br /><br />That's exactly what "even when the most distinct populations are considered and hundreds of loci are used, individuals are frequently more similar to members of other populations than to members of their own population" means.<br /><br />"Very few people outside the HBD / race realist set would believe that a forensic scientist can place someone in the correct race based on a DNA analysis from e.g. a hair sample. That is why paraphrasing Lewontin is usually a fallacy - it robs the lay person of information."<br /><br />What's your point here? You can identify individuals from their DNA FFS! Most people surely know that. I suspect that you are mixing up DNA and genes...<br /><br />"Comparing individual differences to group differences is comparing a simple number to a comparison."<br /><br />Exactly!!!!!<br /><br />"You can't prove anything"<br /><br />True.flex05noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-51709945440747156882009-06-07T20:31:53.122-07:002009-06-07T20:31:53.122-07:00Steve mentioned neurodiversity, the great unmentio...Steve mentioned neurodiversity, the great unmentionable. Just as Africans have the most genetic diversity, Whites (esp. Northern Europeans) have the most neuro-diversity.<br /><br />That is the greatest strength of the White race: neurodiversity. Asians may be smarter on average, but Whites produce more neuro- atypical creative geniuses. The worst race traitors are those Whites who persecute their neuro-<br />atypical brothers and sisters.<br /><br />Curse government factory schooling for its bigoted neuroconformist crusade in the name of "equality".Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-31936278137163033312009-06-07T11:15:54.002-07:002009-06-07T11:15:54.002-07:00That's because he didn't prove anything.
...<i>That's because he didn't prove anything.</i> <br /><br />You can't prove anything, either. E.g., you can't prove that the transatlantic trade ever existed. You can point to some history books and artifacts, but proof? Ha!Svigorhttp://majorityrights.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-32162438564309907142009-06-07T11:13:44.036-07:002009-06-07T11:13:44.036-07:00As I already said I have not taken a position on a...<i>As I already said I have not taken a position on affirmative action, the state of America, immigration etc etc so not sure why some of you are responding as if I have.<br /><br />Svigor: "Hire a cab and drive to the poor neighborhoods that form most of D.C., presto! Blacks everywhere."<br /><br />That was my exact point. Why should I have to take a taxi ride to the poor neighbourhoods to see the majority population of a city? Shouldn't they be everywhere in the city?</i> <br /><br />I believe you were also making an implied "point" about how I grew up in an all-white gated community, imagining how blacks live, but that plank seems to have silently fallen out from under your platform.<br /><br />Please explain why the poor should be everywhere. Hell, you can start by even explaining what that means. Then please explain what it means that D.C. didn't conform to your expectations.<br /><br />Because right now you sound like a bit of a nut. You might as well have landed in NYC and wondered at the injustice of no Trump and Soros to greet you at the airport. Shouldn't the super-rich be everywhere after all?<br /><br /><i>Svigor, you say you don't understand why it matters that genes vary more between individuals than between groups. I agree that it doesn't matter UNLESS you are making a claim about the importance of genetic differences between groups.</i> <br /><br />What is this supposed to prove? There's more variation within age groups/sexes/many species than between them, too.<br /><br />What does this tell us about race that it doesn't tell us about age, sex, and species?<br /><br /><br /><i>Are both of you asking me to believe that you really think it does not have any practical consequences whether a group of people is a) naturally stupid OR b) embittered and alienated.</i> <br /><br />You're the one constructing hypotheses where culture is tantamount to genetics.<br /><br />I say if it's persistent, intractable, and inherited, what's the bloody difference? This "culture" you're talking about cannot be changed and attaches to ancestry. What do I care if you "technically" call it culture or genetics? They're the same thing in practical terms. You may want to revisit the definition of the word "naturally." It does not mean "harder for me to wish away."Svigorhttp://majorityrights.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-47546613768311143482009-06-07T09:19:03.568-07:002009-06-07T09:19:03.568-07:00... Let me add to my above comments that I don'...... Let me add to my above comments that I <b>don't</b> think leftist dissembling is the <i>only</i> reason for Lewontin's Fallacy. Another important reason is simply that it is difficult to sum up fiendishly complex quantitative stuff in ordinary English. I gave the examples of pitfalls in comparing IQs, but even these are vastly simpler than genetic stuff. <br /><br />Comparing individual differences to group differences is <b>comparing a simple number to a comparison</b>. As such it will always be difficult. We strive to do it anyway because, like sex on the mind of a puritan, race is always on the minds of Anglophones.<br /><br />(I am going to try to look up how to figure the mean difference between to points on a single Gaussian distribution in one of my old stat textbooks, but if anyone knows, feel free to shout it out.)B322https://www.blogger.com/profile/18257802768718375656noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-87467446701161160982009-06-07T08:30:39.929-07:002009-06-07T08:30:39.929-07:00Let me ask something to try to get a range of opin...Let me ask something to try to get a range of opinions:<br /><br />If you have a bunch of blacks in a room, and their IQ ranges from 60 to 110 (mean 85), and a bunch of whites, and their IQ ranges from 75 to 125 (mean 100), would it be accurate to sum that up as:<br /><br />"The IQ differences between individuals vary more than the IQ differences between groups."<br /><br />To me, it is a matter of opinion. Some would say it is definitely accurate, because each group spans 50 IQ points, but the group mean difference is only 15. Or maybe it is not accurate because the group difference spans 65 points? <br /><br />I'm not sure if anyone has figured out the mean difference between two black IQ scores, though it would certainly be doable. If that score, and the mean difference between two white IQ scores, were greater than 15, then I guess the statement would be correct. My guess is that this is not the case, because if it were, the establishment would have repeated:<br /><br />"The IQ differences between individuals vary more than the IQ differences between groups."<br /><br />so many times that no one would even think to look for IQ differences between groups any more.B322https://www.blogger.com/profile/18257802768718375656noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-60500382528512260082009-06-07T08:08:51.734-07:002009-06-07T08:08:51.734-07:00"if there is little practical difference betw..."if there is little practical difference between intractable cultural factors and genetic factors, why do progressives take such vehement exception to the alleged mislabeling of the former as the latter?"<br /><br /><i>Are both of you asking me to believe that you really think it does not have any practical consequences whether a group of people is a) naturally stupid OR b) embittered and alienated.</i><br /><br />(I don't know about Svigor; I'm pretty sure he thinks most of the differences lie in the genes.) If people are embittered and alienated enough over a long enough term that it <b>perfectly</b> simulates, through crime, dropout rates, illegitimacy, and job performance, the low scores they've produced on Stupid Tests that correlate with those things, then no, it doesn't matter. I don't care if it's a genius who threw the Stupid Test and then decided to steal parts off my bike even though they have no resale value, just to show he's embittered and alienated. The behavioral sciences really have no way of dealing with this possibility, though some religions may.<br /><br />The leftist solution is that you should assume that a group of people that rapes, takes crack, and steals things of no resale value at higher rates than the general public are composed of people of thoroughly normal abilities. Then you should promote them faster than everyone else to show your respect for their inner normality. <br /><br />I have <a href="http://personal.lse.ac.uk/Kanazawa/pdfs/MDE2005.pdf" rel="nofollow">argued</a> against this, just not in <a href="http://www.lrainc.com/swtaboo/stalkers/em_gfact.html" rel="nofollow">ways that keep the leftists from getting bored</a>. <br /><br />NOTHING works. They said it was a self-esteem thing until it was proven that blacks have higher self-esteem. The leftists didn't admit that they were wrong. They said blacks made less money doing the same work; disproven. The leftists didn't admit that they were wrong. They said culturally-loaded questions made blacks look bad. Disproven. The leftists didn't admit that they were wrong. They said poverty drove blacks to property crimes, which was clever since Harper Lee has essentially made it impossible to discuss all the violence blacks commit. They say higher IQs among admixed blacks disprove a lot of this, since the one-drop rule, which no one accepts, means that no one is admixed. That one is too weird to really disprove.B322https://www.blogger.com/profile/18257802768718375656noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-86849029697082946772009-06-07T08:05:29.602-07:002009-06-07T08:05:29.602-07:00As I already said I have not taken a position on a...<i>As I already said I have not taken a position on affirmative action, the state of America, immigration etc etc so not sure why some of you are responding as if I have.</i><br /><br />I brought up affirmative action to explain what we care about and why. The classic sequence is:<br />-Leftist claims social engineering will dissolve race/class differences.<br />-Rightist disagrees.<br />-Leftist claims rightist has just said all important differences are genetic, and that rightist is wrong.<br />-Most rightists skip to giving evidence for genetic differences. I also paused to say that it is doesn't matter if all or just some differences are genetic, since the cultural ones aren't going away, since trying to make them go away constitutes WHITEY TELLING SOUL BROTHER WHAT TO DO which hasn't historically worked.<br />-Leftist asks why it matters anyway.<br />-Rightist answers why it matters.<br /><br />That's where we are. All that matters politically is the national question: immigration, affirmative action, language. The civic stuff - whether or not white people hate themselves and/or allow others to hate them, matters more.<br /><br />Blode0322: "A.W.F. Edwards didn't win any prize."<br /><br /><i>That's because he didn't prove anything. I will quote the relevant sentence from the article which YOU linked to: "The fact that, given enough genetic data, individuals can be correctly assigned to their populations of origin is compatible with the observation that most human genetic variation is found within populations, not between them. It is also compatible with our finding that, even when the most distinct populations are considered and hundreds of loci are used, individuals are frequently more similar to members of other populations than to members of their own population."</i><br /><br />So, all you've shown is that when you a geneticist gives details and nuance, real information can be transferred. <br /><br />A statement like "most geneticists argue that most genes vary more between individuals than between groups" lacks nuance and misleads the reader. I've known many Eurowhites who have had that repeated to them so many times that they believe each of them has more in common with the average Korean or Nubian than with each other. Back when most of my data on these topics came from verbal interactions, I would challenge that statement by asking how two people could belong to two different groups but still be the same individual. I reasoned that, if people were of two different groups then they must be two different individuals, and thus the genetic distance between people of different races <b>must</b> be greater than the genetic distance between people of the same race. By that point, the leftists had already gotten bored.<br /><br />When I started <b>reading</b> about this stuff, I had one of those head-slapping moments: "Oh, is that all?! You mean all this confusion was created because people couldn't properly assemble the sentence, 'The genetic distance between people of two different races is less than <b>twice</b> the genetic distance between two people of the same race.' ????"<br /><br />Very few people outside the HBD / race realist set would believe that a forensic scientist can place someone in the correct race based on a DNA analysis from e.g. a hair sample. That is why paraphrasing Lewontin is usually a fallacy - it robs the lay person of information.B322https://www.blogger.com/profile/18257802768718375656noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-86911204474657637352009-06-07T02:15:27.834-07:002009-06-07T02:15:27.834-07:00As I already said I have not taken a position on a...As I already said I have not taken a position on affirmative action, the state of America, immigration etc etc so not sure why some of you are responding as if I have.<br /><br />Svigor: "Hire a cab and drive to the poor neighborhoods that form most of D.C., presto! Blacks everywhere."<br /><br />That was my exact point. Why should I have to take a taxi ride to the poor neighbourhoods to see the majority population of a city? Shouldn't they be everywhere in the city?<br /><br />Blode0322: "A.W.F. Edwards didn't win any prize."<br /><br />That's because he didn't prove anything. I will quote the relevant sentence from the article which YOU linked to: "The fact that, given enough genetic data, individuals can be correctly assigned to their populations of origin is compatible with the observation that most human genetic variation is found within populations, not between them. It is also compatible with our finding that, even when the most distinct populations are considered and hundreds of loci are used, individuals are frequently more similar to members of other populations than to members of their own population."<br /><br />Svigor, you say you don't understand why it matters that genes vary more between individuals than between groups. I agree that it doesn't matter UNLESS you are making a claim about the importance of genetic differences between groups.<br /><br />"if there is little practical difference between intractable cultural factors and genetic factors, why do progressives take such vehement exception to the alleged mislabeling of the former as the latter?"<br /><br />Are both of you asking me to believe that you really think it does not have any practical consequences whether a group of people is a) naturally stupid OR b) embittered and alienated.flex05noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-74029911385565528182009-06-06T17:37:23.666-07:002009-06-06T17:37:23.666-07:00Blode0322 and Tom V, you both take a very narrow v...<i>Blode0322 and Tom V, you both take a very narrow view of what non-genetic factors may be at work.</i><br /><br />If you say so....<br /><br /><i>So Blode0322 let's take your intractable cultural practices. For example, what if Group A got screwed over by Group B for about 500 years and Group A therefore decided not to cooperate with Group B, including in the matter of those stupid tests Group B sticks in their faces every now and again.... It's not genetic but for a group it could certainly have a cross generational effect on the average score of that group.</i> <br /><br />Okay, so if there is little practical difference between intractable cultural factors and genetic factors, why do progressives take such vehement exception to the alleged mislabeling of the former as the latter? Maybe it is of academic interest, but I don't see why affirmative action is a good thing in one case and a bad thing in the other. <br /><br />The point is that the anti-HBD "Horatio Alger" right has made a perfectly adequate case against affirmative action by pointing out that lowering standards for failed groups reinforces the (allegedly 100%) cultural factors that make them fail. They've pointed out that any number of immigrant groups started off as poor and as "screwed over" as blacks and have done better, due (entirely!) to their cultures. <br /><br />So why are we talking about racial differences? Why do we care? <b>Because affirmative action still exists.</b> Does it seem odd that someone would care that it exists? Thomas Sowell says it has messed up <b>every</b> country in which it has been introduced.<br /><br /><i>And NB in this example it would be the IQ score being affected not the actual IQ.</i><br /><br />Yes, and Group A's <b>crime rates, college dropout rates, and on-the-job-injury rates would be measurably better than the stupid tests would predict</b>. The psychometric world would take note of this, and something quite the opposite of:<br /><a href="http://www.lrainc.com/swtaboo/stalkers/em_gfact.html" rel="nofollow">"Actually, the tests slightly over-predict scholastic and workplace performance by blacks and are to that extent unfair to whites and Asians in competition for the same positions."</a><br /><br /><i>But most geneticists argue that most genes vary more between individuals than between groups. <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lewontin%27s_Fallacy" rel="nofollow">If you can prove different then go and get yourself off to your beloved Sweden for a Nobel prize</a></i>.<br /><br />A.W.F. Edwards didn't win any prize.B322https://www.blogger.com/profile/18257802768718375656noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-4133909587214471692009-06-06T17:26:32.111-07:002009-06-06T17:26:32.111-07:00most geneticists argue that most genes vary more b...<i>most geneticists argue that most genes vary more between individuals than between groups.</i> <br /><br />What is this supposed to prove? There's more variation within sexes than between them, too. There's more variation within age groups than between them, too. If I had to guess, it's true of a hell of a lot of species, too.<br /><br />What does this tell us about race that it doesn't tell us about sex, age, and species?Svigorhttp://majorityrights.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-76091657848231099092009-06-06T17:19:14.995-07:002009-06-06T17:19:14.995-07:00I have been to the US many times but I am happy to...<i>I have been to the US many times but I am happy to say that I know very little directly about what life is like for US blacks. But given the voluntary apartheid system you have over there I am quite confident that you know very little about what life is like for US blacks too.</i> <br /><br />Ah, you tipped your hand. Voluntary apartheid system? American whites don't know how American blacks live?<br /><br />I grew up in a black neighborhood. Most of my non-school friends were blacks until I was in my teens. Slept over more times than I can remember. What was I, in sensory deprivation the whole time?<br /><br />You've got to be kidding me with this shyte.<br /><br /><i>When I went to Washington DC I didn't see any blacks even though there is a large concentration of them living there, kept out of sight. So what is your point?</i> <br /><br />Kept out of sight? What are you, blind? Hire a cab and drive to the poor neighborhoods that form most of D.C., presto! Blacks everywhere. Spent a bit of time there, too.<br /><br />But thanks for the American culture lesson, good stuff.Svigorhttp://majorityrights.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-40525253853983096272009-06-06T17:13:08.752-07:002009-06-06T17:13:08.752-07:00For example, what if Group A got screwed over by G...<i>For example, what if Group A got screwed over by Group B for about 500 years and Group A therefore decided not to cooperate with Group B, including in the matter of those stupid tests Group B sticks in their faces every now and again. Not all or even most of Group A would need to have this attitude for it to reduce the average score for Group A in tests (doing well in school is acting "white"). So call that kind of factor whatever you like.</i> <br /><br />Given all the data I've seen on your "hypothetical" groups, I'd say the attitude is genetic (or persistent and inherent, what you name it matters little) and move on.<br /><br />I wouldn't bother mentioning Occam's Razor, but I might start developing a theory on pathological excuse-making.Svigorhttp://majorityrights.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-61492272377944939422009-06-06T17:09:10.789-07:002009-06-06T17:09:10.789-07:00"You are right, there is not an ironclad scie...<i>"You are right, there is not an ironclad scientific case for hbd."<br /><br />Thank eff for that! That's all I have been wanting somebody to say!</i> <br /><br />I pretty much said that already. Roughly nothing anyone ever argues about has an ironclad case.<br /><br />HBD-denial is a molehill, and HBD is a mountain unclad in iron.Svigorhttp://majorityrights.comnoreply@blogger.com