tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post4546245379951668054..comments2024-03-27T18:24:19.683-07:00Comments on Steve Sailer: iSteve: Are people still growing up taller than their parents on average?Unknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger69125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-71051207206999480612010-03-12T10:45:44.328-08:002010-03-12T10:45:44.328-08:00> The Greeks and Turks, despite good nutrition,...> The Greeks and Turks, despite good nutrition, are still the shortest, and I don't hear them complain. <<br /><br />You mean you don't hear them complain in English.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-30754329757514526272010-03-11T14:17:58.512-08:002010-03-11T14:17:58.512-08:00What's so great about being tall anyway? Beyo...What's so great about being tall anyway? Beyond a certain point, it serves no useful purpose, and is little more than a sex selection marker. Think of the peacock's tail or the antlers of the Irish Deer.<br /><br />So what if the Dutch are some of the tallest people in Europe? The Greeks and Turks, despite good nutrition, are still the shortest, and I don't hear them complain.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-48514083129441334652010-03-11T13:50:53.945-08:002010-03-11T13:50:53.945-08:00(birth cohort around 1970).
Correction: That shou...(birth cohort around 1970).<br /><br />Correction: That should read early 1960s.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-24574866626209211602010-03-11T13:50:53.944-08:002010-03-11T13:50:53.944-08:00(birth cohort around 1970).
Oop! That should read...(birth cohort around 1970).<br /><br />Oop! That should read 1960.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-71442840540766628822010-03-11T13:34:14.780-08:002010-03-11T13:34:14.780-08:00“I was struck in Britain and Germany (Frankfurt an...“I was struck in Britain and Germany (Frankfurt and south) how much darker Europeans seemed to me than mainstream (British/German/Irish) whites in the US.”<br /><br />I’ve lived in Britain and Germany for about 8 years total and I didn’t find that. Germany has a lot of variation. The bulk of the population in the S and C parts of the country look mostly “Alpine” – not particularly tall (but not short either), broad and heavy build, round, globular heads and faces, fairly broad features, brunet white complexions and hair color usually of various shades of brown. All types of eye colors though mixed seemed to predominate (i.e. hazel as opposed to pure blue or brown). In the NW (Niedersachsen, and Holland as well), the people are much more “Nordic” looking – tall, skinny, and long limbed, long narrow heads, faces and features, pinkish/ruddy complexions, overwhelmingly blue eyed. Most of the children are blond and most of the adults have light brown hair. Blondism tends toward “golden.” In the Former E Germany, the people have a much more “Baltic” look – squarish heads with prominent cheekbones. Complexion is pale, but not ruddy. Light eyes predominate, but usually gray or blue-gray as opposed to blue. Hair is usually blond in children and brown in adults and blondism tends towards “ashen” – i.e., absence of rufosity.<br /><br />In Britain, the population varies a lot by region. In the W Country of England, Wales, and Cornwall the people are often quite swarthy with dark hair and eyes. In the E and NE, the people are pale and ruddy, overwhelmingly blue-eyed and have a high incidence of blond hair (very similar in pigmentation to Scandinavians and NW Germans) as well as red-headedness. The Irish tend towards pale milky complexions, blue eyes with dark hair. When they have fair hair, it is usually red or reddish. The Scots are similar to the Irish, but blonder in the Eastern part of the country. In the SW around London the people appear more mixed. Hair color is usually an non-descript brown and skin and eye color are very variable.<br /><br />“The Japanese have been getting taller since their diet became more Westernized (i.e.: more carbs and dairy).”<br /><br />Young adult Japanese males and females have been stagnant at about 172 and 159 cm, respectively, since the early 80s (birth cohort around 1970).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-37985922668213881432010-03-11T13:34:14.781-08:002010-03-11T13:34:14.781-08:00“I think there is just something odd about the fac...“I think there is just something odd about the facial morphology of some of those in the low countries (no offense, but strikingly primitive sometims).”<br /><br />The Low Countries have what anthropologists used to classify as Dalo-Falids:<br /><br />The Dalo-Falid is quite tall, and rather wide in most features, especially when compared to the more gracile Nordid. The neck is thick, the shoulders broad, and the general impression is of great strength and robusticity. There is a certain extent of sexual dimorphism, and whereas the men are typically very "masculine", the women develop corresponding features only to moderacy; they are often large-featured, however in a distinctively female way.<br /><br />The Dalo-Falid head is meso- to dolichocephalic, and is characterized by a wedge-like shape. The face is broad and somewhat short, often giving the impression of a compressed Nordid, which undoubtedly reflects the partial contribution of Dalo-Falid or a similar Cro-Magnid strain to the historical formation of the Nordid types. The maxillary bones are strongly developed.<br /><br />The forehead is short and rather steep, and a characteristic supraorbital bulge is often seen, especially in men. In combination with deep-set eyes, which are also common in Dalo-Falids, this feature tends to give the type a “primitive” aspect.<br /><br />The nose is relatively short, yet thin (meso- to leptorrhine), and often protrusive. The profile is mostly straight, with a slight tendency towards concavity (rather than convexity). In women, Alpinid-like noses are not uncommon.<br /><br />The lower jaw is massive and broad, and the gonial angles are clearly visible, even flaring. The Dalo-Falid deviates from the Brünn in this latter respect, and while it is usually broad-faced, it seldom approaches the facial flatness common among Irish Brünns. However, the Dalo-Falid type is strongly orthognathous, with a nearly vertical mouth region, an impression which is reinforced by the thinness of the lips.<br /><br />Furrows and folds appear at a relatively early age (in men, firstly), particularly on the forehead and along the sides of the nose and mouth. The skin is a bright rosy color, approaching red, which is less common in Nordids. The pigmentation of the Dalo-Falid type is nearly as light as that of Nordids. The hair is typically blond or brown, with a tendency towards rufosity, and the eyes are gray or blue.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-88264279223352473062010-03-11T13:24:09.743-08:002010-03-11T13:24:09.743-08:00My anecdote:
Few white men under 30 are less than...My anecdote:<br /><br />Few white men under 30 are less than a half a foot taller than I am. And I was of average height most of my life (5'10").Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-74088249193782830392010-03-11T10:14:37.432-08:002010-03-11T10:14:37.432-08:00On the New Yorker article, I wonder if apples have...On the New Yorker article, I wonder if apples have stopped getting larger. What about oranges? If we compare the two, perhaps we will discover that planting apple trees in Florida would lead to bigger fruit. Because we can totally compare apples and oranges, Gladwell says so.<br /><br />Seriously, Italy, Germany, Belgium...all the EU has socialized medicine. Why are Italians shorter than the Dutch? Is Italy starving, are they all sick?<br /><br />Comparing the rate of change in height between populations seems iffy: European Americans might have hit their max earlier.<br /><br />But really, height has a heritability of like .9 in the modern US white population. Tall men have more children than short men. If children have dads that are just an inch taller than the average of dads' generation, that generation will be 0.9 inches taller. There's a ton of room for selection in population height.<br /><br />Tall men outearn short men and have higher SES on average. "Dysgenic" reproduction will drive height down. <br /><br />Black women getting shorter: in normal (ie not malnourished or whatever) women, age of menarche and adult height are inversely correlated. When earlier puberty leads to earlier (or more) reproduction, that will drive down height.<br /><br />Comparing Europeans and European Americans is not perfect: immigrants are not a random sample, selection varies (poverty, disease and war), white Americans probably have 2-4% Native American admixture. Maybe even higher in tradtional/Old stock/settler/ Americans. I'd bet the dopamine receptor allele that influences ADHD (DRD4?) is more common in white Americans than in Europeans.<br /><br /><i>I attribute much of the high per capita of attractive Southern gals with some blend of Scotch-Irish and squaw DNA</i><br /><br />White and Native American works pretty well, at least Northern European and North American Indian. Spanish and Central American: not so much. To my eye, mixed race African/Native people are the least attractive people, not really healthy either, IIRC.robnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-92191939947471406312010-03-10T19:17:45.286-08:002010-03-10T19:17:45.286-08:00"in soccer, tennis, boxing, track, and swimmi..."in soccer, tennis, boxing, track, and swimming, many of the modern athletes are huge and much bigger than players from 20 years ago. size does not even seem useful in soccer, but some of the players are really tall now."<br /><br />You obviously don't know much about soccer if you think that size is not useful in soccer. Of two players with equal skill, the bigger player is going to dominate, all other things being equal. The game is faster and more physical than it used to be, and size plays a part in that.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-84504995881944346732010-03-10T15:48:57.212-08:002010-03-10T15:48:57.212-08:00"Is it just that "German" Americans..."Is it just that "German" Americans married girls named Smith who were 1/8 Native American" <br /><br />Probably. I attribute much of the high per capita of attractive Southern gals with some blend of Scotch-Irish and squaw DNA. Parker Posey, Sela Ward, and Ashely Judd are just a few examples of prominent Southern lookers that make a good case for this being a beneficial admixture.Marc Bhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15526121114466617234noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-68510284885488934462010-03-10T14:43:13.533-08:002010-03-10T14:43:13.533-08:00anon:
"You guys live in places like Californi...anon:<br />"You guys live in places like California, New York, and the South where there's a lot of short people."<br /><br />Yes, my experience of the US is limited to the South and west to California. Texans seemed tall, but white male Southerners seemed mostly fairly short, not much taller than me (5'9"). The Mexicans immigrants who seemed to make up most of the population of California were mostly ca 5'4"-5'5" I'd say.Simonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-15328912257473727782010-03-10T08:50:53.868-08:002010-03-10T08:50:53.868-08:00As far as baseball pitchers are concerned, a 6'...As far as baseball pitchers are concerned, a 6'7" white pitcher, with a sleeve length up around 40 inches, is going to have a MASSIVE advantage in pitching arm torque/angular momentum over a 5'7" Central American aboriginal with a sleeve length in the 30s or high 20s.<br /><br />If the 6'7" guy's pitching shoulder and pitching elbow can take the force generated by his pitching motion [i.e. as long as his tendons and ligaments aren't ripped apart by the stress of 90+ MPH fastballs], then the 5'7" guy can never compete with him [unless maybe the 5'7" guy can bench press 500 or 750lbs, to make up for his lack of torque/angular momentum].Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-79706853326177367182010-03-10T07:40:57.887-08:002010-03-10T07:40:57.887-08:00"For me, though, you can find evidence everyw..."For me, though, you can find evidence everywhere. If 7-1 Wilt Chamberlain could average 50 points per game in 1962 by being more gigantic than everybody else, but by 1972 he couldn't, that suggests something." <br /><br />Honestly Mr. Sailer, you are a brilliant guy, but this may be the dumbest thing I have ever read.<br /><br />It suggests he spent 10 years dragging his 7-1 inch body up and down a hard court floor and he had destroyed his knees and ankles. Every big man in history after 10 years couldn't get off the floor any more. <br /><br />An the Kareem thing was almost as bad. You are baffled why there werent' more tall thin hook-shooting centers?<br /><br />Like the other guy said, because it is VERY hard to develop those skills and they guy worked his tail off. Why is it that so many people cannot grasp that truly great basketball players worked very hard to develop their skills.lcjnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-85094587091226835322010-03-10T06:58:01.878-08:002010-03-10T06:58:01.878-08:00From my Experience in Belgium (and to some extent ...From my Experience in Belgium (and to some extent the Belgium). The tallness factor is not necessarily correlated with classical nordic experience. Based upon my anecdotes, I still see typicall 5'10" American high school students with a ruggedness of build (and classic skull shape) that is not to be found in some of the European counterparts. I think there is just something odd about the facial morphology of some of those in the low countries (no offense, but strikingly primitive sometims).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-4328461242265870172010-03-10T05:19:21.897-08:002010-03-10T05:19:21.897-08:00Carbs (due to their insulin inducing properties) a...Carbs (due to their insulin inducing properties) and dairy (usually hormone-laden) are primarily responsible for height once appropriate nutrition is achieved. <br /><br />Examples: <br />- Dutch people are really tall, and they consume vast amounts of dairy.<br />- The Japanese have been getting taller since their diet became more Westernized (i.e.: more carbs and dairy).<br /><br />Gains in the US are no longer realizable, as the excess carbs and dairy after a certain amount (probably reached somewhere between the 60s and 80s) only leads to obesity, not additional height.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-90606091037355447292010-03-09T22:58:18.187-08:002010-03-09T22:58:18.187-08:00We have a ton of Guatemalans in our town. They are...We have a ton of Guatemalans in our town. They are tiny. Every night I drive home and see eight year olds smoking cigars strolling down the sidewalk and realize that they are full grown men.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-38886981601908086182010-03-09T21:26:47.484-08:002010-03-09T21:26:47.484-08:00"Anyone who has been to nations that provided..."Anyone who has been to nations that provided a lot of white American stock (Britain, Holland, Germany) knows they look different than American whites--ie in this context that they are biologically "whiter." Fairer skin, lighter hair, lighter eyes and probably some subtle structural differences in the face and body."<br /><br />I don't think I agree with that. I was struck in Britain and Germany (Frankfurt and south) how much darker Europeans seemed to me than mainstream (British/German/Irish) whites in the US. The number of brunette Germans in Frankfurt was surprising to me. Southern Germans appear not to be Germanic at all but rather Germanized Celts. There are lots of brunette, brown eyed English people on the London Tube as well.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-69635317436605585922010-03-09T20:48:35.568-08:002010-03-09T20:48:35.568-08:00“When I occasionally visit the Netherlands and Bel...“When I occasionally visit the Netherlands and Belgium. I notice both the extreme height of the younger generation (you can still see some middle-aged dutch who are well below the American average). In addition it seems that the youth are not completed puberty until a later stage.”<br /><br />According to Evelyth and Tanner’s “Wordwide Variation in Human Growth” 2 Ed. N. Europeans mature later and finish growing later than Southern Europeans (and this largely accounts for their difference in adult heights). This difference persists for Australians of N. and S. European descent born and raised in Australia. The US white population isn’t purely N. European, but a mixture from all parts of Europe.<br /><br />“Everyone should look at the New Yorker article…The authors note that the studies comparing Dutch men to American men take ethnicity into account, but I'm a bit skeptical.”<br /><br />You are right to be skeptical. That article relies on the work of John Komlos. He just treats white Americans and Dutch as equivalent. They clearly are not, but being a good multi-culti socialist, it would be unthinkable for him that valued traits could differ between populations due to genetic reasons. To adapt a line from S.J. Gould, “say 10 times before breakfast” that there could not be any differences in genetic potential for height from people from different parts of Europe.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-65188426215453933422010-03-09T20:32:54.621-08:002010-03-09T20:32:54.621-08:00You should also factor in which groups have been t...You should also factor in which groups have been the most reproductive. Catholic whites have had more and continue to have more babies than average whites. traditional Catholic groups -Irish and Italians- are shorter than the general stock. Now their share of that stock should be increasing and with that increase, white height should fall.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-14903334525962891152010-03-09T19:52:50.409-08:002010-03-09T19:52:50.409-08:00Now when I look at very old family photos (or hist...<i>Now when I look at very old family photos (or historical photos from before the first world war). Americans still were not done increasing in height and note that 25 year old men would look like todays 40 year old.</i><br /><br />Consider <a href="http://www.shorpy.com/node/7829?size=_original" rel="nofollow">this 1937 photo</a> depicting a group of Minnesota lumberjacks. Most of them appear to be well into middle age, sometimes almost on the verge of old age. The point is, given the nature of the job they probably weren't all that old - they just looked old beyond their years.<br /><br />PeterAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-87660781811284966542010-03-09T18:49:36.988-08:002010-03-09T18:49:36.988-08:00Here's an amusing 1954 video of the 17-year-ol...Here's an amusing 1954 video of the 17-year-old Wilt Chamberlain. Note the short shorts and the narrow 3-second zone (this video is so old it's still a rectangle and not the "key" shape that came next)<br /><br /><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9GPibuasw4" rel="nofollow">Wilt Chamberlain at 17</a>CJnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-92070589373295589712010-03-09T18:28:44.571-08:002010-03-09T18:28:44.571-08:00You guys live in places like California, New York,...You guys live in places like California, New York, and the South where there's a lot of short people.<br /><br />In the German Midwest, average height for men is probably right on 5'11" as it is in Germany. I'm 5'7" to 5'8" and there were maybe 3 or 4 other guys in my high school class of 300+ who were shorter than me. Whereas in college at Cornell I passed easily for average height.<br /><br />And in Dutch Western Michigan it's probably about 6'.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-85283544306184027532010-03-09T18:01:31.031-08:002010-03-09T18:01:31.031-08:00Anonymous: keep in mind that America is a further ...Anonymous: keep in mind that America is a further south than most of Europe and gets a lot more sun. Nonetheless, I've noticed the same thing, especially amongst the white lower classes, which isn't surprising.Northwest Alternativehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00843774229686929502noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-63433804788529119522010-03-09T16:53:27.510-08:002010-03-09T16:53:27.510-08:00I have never understood why people automatically a...I have never understood why people automatically assume that better nutrition leads to greater height. Who is to say that people who average 6'4 in height have had better nutrition than people who average 5'11? There are some very healthy, long lived and short populations out there. In fact, it could turn out that a diet conducive to health and longevity results in lower height! (Caloric restriction, methionine restriction...)<br /><br />And, as I was browsing though the March issue of Vogue, I came upon an article about the new crop of beautiful Dutch models, where one of them says: "We eat healthy with our simple bread and potatoes and cheese. We are definitely a healthy bunch of people." I dunno about that! Northern European diets tend to be very heavy on bread (wheat) and dairy. Some nutrients might make you taller, but do they make you healthier?MilkandBreadnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-42805041404152614012010-03-09T16:01:25.858-08:002010-03-09T16:01:25.858-08:00Everyone should look at the New Yorker article.
F...Everyone should look at the New Yorker article.<br /><br />Fascinating data that turns out to have extremely interesting implications.<br /><br /><br />The authors note that the studies comparing Dutch men to American men take ethnicity into account, but I'm a bit skeptical. Anyone who has been to nations that provided a lot of white American stock (Britain, Holland, Germany) knows they look different than American whites--ie in this context that they are biologically "whiter." Fairer skin, lighter hair, lighter eyes and probably some subtle structural differences in the face and body. <br /><br />We're not talking about apples and oranges, but it would be fairly easy to distinguish--on the basis of natural physical appearance (controlling for things like ridiculous European haircuts, effete clothing, etc.)--a group of 20 Northern Europeans from a group of 20 American whites purportedly of Northern European heritage.<br /><br />The why of this is somewhat puzzling. It would be easy to dismiss this notion if I were just talking about ethnic places like LA, but I remember getting singled out for my fair skin by kids who all had names like Smith when I spent summers at the pool of my South Carolina country club. <br /><br />Is it just that "German" Americans married girls named Smith who were 1/8 Native American, and their "German" kids married people who were 1/4 Italian, etc. until a subtle standard of "American" whiteness gradually emerged? <br /><br /><br />I can't really give much of an argument here besides the experiential one. I think anyone who has been to Europe recently would have noticed this same phenomenon, whether they live in a particularly vibrant Manhattan neighborhood or a thoroughly German town in Missouri. <br /><br /><br />If anyone has had a different experience traveling through Britain or Denmark* or wherever, I'd be interested to hear it. <br /><br /><br /><br /><br />*My sister judged Copenhagen fun but annoying--the women were gorgeous and she was no longer special for being tall, fair and naturally blonde.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com