tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post4959059319045127129..comments2024-03-27T18:24:19.683-07:00Comments on Steve Sailer: iSteve: Pinker on interpreting twin studiesUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger28125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-84567726578668521552014-02-01T19:03:46.737-08:002014-02-01T19:03:46.737-08:00I have taught a pair of id twin girls. The dominan...I have taught a pair of id twin girls. The dominant one, now about 8, has gradually grown noticeably taller than her sister,<br />.Environment?pyrrhushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06150605108788285274noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-18791885326077663842014-01-30T15:26:15.571-08:002014-01-30T15:26:15.571-08:00>that you don't understand something does n...>that you don't understand something does not mean that it does not exist or is not important<<br /><br />I didn't say it doesn't exist or is unimportant.Davidhttp://david-passingparade3.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-36505303074577943382014-01-30T11:21:09.287-08:002014-01-30T11:21:09.287-08:00The cottage industry around nurture.
Nurture Vul...The cottage industry around nurture. <br /><br />Nurture Vulture. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-80599638638644055952014-01-30T10:57:34.607-08:002014-01-30T10:57:34.607-08:00We also have to deal with the nurture gene.
We t...We also have to deal with the nurture gene. <br /><br />We tend to see nurture as opposed to nature, but nurturability may be more hardwired into some than others. <br /><br />Nurturability has the nurturing side and the nurtured side. <br /><br />Nurturing side of the nurture gene wants to nurture. <br /><br />Nurtured side of the nurture gene is receptive to nurturing. <br /><br />It may be that some individuals--and some groups--have stronger nurture genes. <br /><br />Some women really love their kids while other women see children as a nuisance. Take the film GEORGY GIRL where Charlotte Rampling hates her kid and just wants to go off and have fun again. But Lynn Redgrave has a nurturing gene and adopts the baby though not hers.<br /><br />Likewise, some kids are very receptive to nurturement while others are not so very much. <br />Among animals, puppies more so than kittens. Puppies want to grow closer to humans as they develop. Kittens grow more distant from humans as they mature. <br /><br />(Oddly enough, dogs are louder and more aggressive yet also more obedient and docile; cats are gentler and more timid yet more fierce and stubborn.) <br /><br />http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8YCQ8j55VM<br /><br />Consider laughter. <br /><br />Some might say laughability is natural, i.e. some people are born with the funny bone; others might say it's a case of nurture, i.e. people exposed to more jokes will laugh more. <br /><br />But what we call 'nature' is, to an extent, one's innate tendency to be nurturing and/or nurtured. <br /><br />Those born with the funny bone are more likely to tell jokes and laugh at jokes. <br /><br />Consider two people. One is prone to laughter and the other isn't.<br /> <br />Both can be nurtured to laugh because even humorless people will laugh at something. So, some might say laughter is a case of nurture. <br />But, those with the funny bone will be more responsive to the nurture of laughter. They will be the first to laugh. And they will be more likely to wanna spread the joy of laughter to others by 'nurturing' others toward humor.<br /><br />Those without the funny bone may be made to laugh too, but it takes more effort. They can be nurtured to laugh but their nurture gene of laughter isn't as powerful as it is with some other people. <br /><br />So, nurture too is partly a case of nature. <br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-38331821662191135232014-01-30T07:32:36.159-08:002014-01-30T07:32:36.159-08:00It's more for the sake of convenience. We don&...<i>It's more for the sake of convenience. We don't if we it is justified to make the assumption that the effects of these mutations can be ignored. Some and perhaps even all of the difference between identical twins could stem from these mutations. Again, twins are our metric on the effects of heredity. Think about it. </i><br /><br />It's not an entirely unreasonable assumption since we know most mutations are neutral. Also as novel mutations they're not the products of specific selective pressures.<br /><br />There are no perfectly controlled experiments, even in more rigorous fields like physics. The point is to get a sense of the probabilities.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-45068233205216120932014-01-30T07:05:29.817-08:002014-01-30T07:05:29.817-08:00Stephen Pinker is completely essential reading.
W...<i>Stephen Pinker is completely essential reading.<br /><br />What does astonish me, is that his writing is so politically incorrect yet he seems not to suffer 'Watsoning' because of it.<br /><br />Is this all down to his pleasent manner and genteel moderate tone?<br /><br />Nick - Pretoria </i><br /><br />He has the "right background". And he's not politically incorrect enough to tolerate scientific study of what that means. <br /><br />http://www.kevinmacdonald.net/Pinker.htmben tillmannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-64068189203593963932014-01-30T06:22:24.979-08:002014-01-30T06:22:24.979-08:00Now this one is really good. A besetting vice of t...Now this one is really good. A besetting vice of the modern age is to assume we <i>know</i> all the factors involved and just have to figure out the exact proportions - but there can be no mystery in this grand scientific age. <br /><br />What's genius? Why it's IQ+personality traits like openness! There is no mystery in genius - how could there be? This is the age of science. Because we <i>know</i> absolutely everything there is to be known about intelligence in the form of the infallible IQ test so clearly, no mystery there, and if it isn't a kind of pure intelligence not captured by our perfect IQ tests, then it must be something else that we <i>know</i>. But there cannot be chance or mystery. <br /><br />All phenomena must be explained through <i>known</i> factors in some interaction and no admission of mystery or chance can be made. It' a kind of mad scientist hubris that makes our age blind. Of course I'm not saying the mystery need be final, although in many cases it will undoubtedly prove so, but that at the current moment, there is a huge mystery surrounding such things as intelligence, nutrition, and other phenomena, and to pretend that we know about it is worse is far worse than simply admitting that the state of current science is on very shaky ground.<br /><br />Nutrition is another good one. My roomate is a nutritionist, and he will plainly deny any health pehnomena that is not grounded in <i>known</i> nutritional factors. When I point out that we don't know everything about nutrition and that in fact we know precious little, he can't accept it.<br /><br />Does that sound unintelligent? It's the rule of the age we live in. My roomate's a smart guy in some ways- he'd score high on an IQ test - but he has a kind of stupidity or blindness that impedes progress. But wait, I can't say that, because either he is smart or he is stupid. It's probably personality. It can't be that his mind has a defect that he simply can't <i>see</i> complexity and uncertainty in a situation.Michaelnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-75721517642178057732014-01-30T06:13:27.886-08:002014-01-30T06:13:27.886-08:00Does anybody know what a "confound" is?
...Does anybody know what a "confound" is?<br /><br />Can any two knowledgeable people give the same definition of "gene expression"?<br /><br />That expression appears to mean whatever the speaker/writer wants it to mean.<br /><br />If that's Science, Bill Clinton never told a lie.<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-65471774043532529982014-01-30T05:58:30.637-08:002014-01-30T05:58:30.637-08:00"Binary Genital", sounds like a great na..."Binary Genital", sounds like a great name for a rock band.Prof. Wolandnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-56169090692719468972014-01-30T05:41:21.649-08:002014-01-30T05:41:21.649-08:00"I've totally gone over the top in arrang..."I've totally gone over the top in arranging my environment to suit my innate predilection."<br /><br />Blacklisting by MSM helped some. <br /><br />When you got nothing left to lose, you might as well be you. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-71634481407830359372014-01-30T05:39:24.250-08:002014-01-30T05:39:24.250-08:00Passive environment vs active environment.
Imagi...Passive environment vs active environment. <br /><br />Imagine a poor community. Bad. <br /><br />But the culture of the people is actively engaged in pushing kids toward meaning goals. Good. <br /><br />Imagine a rich community. Good. <br /><br />But the culture of the people is passive in its attention to children. Bad. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-44898373571781816182014-01-30T00:43:41.420-08:002014-01-30T00:43:41.420-08:00Stephen Pinker is completely essential reading.
W...Stephen Pinker is completely essential reading.<br /><br />What does astonish me, is that his writing is so politically incorrect yet he seems not to suffer 'Watsoning' because of it.<br /><br />Is this all down to his pleasent manner and genteel moderate tone?<br /><br />Nick - Pretoria Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-31052001304052399682014-01-29T18:32:28.930-08:002014-01-29T18:32:28.930-08:00@Anonymous:
It's more for the sake of conveni...@Anonymous:<br /><br />It's more for the sake of convenience. We don't if we it is justified to make the assumption that the effects of these mutations can be ignored. Some and perhaps even all of the difference between identical twins could stem from these mutations. Again, twins are our metric on the effects of heredity. Think about it. JayManhttp://jaymans.wordpress.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-18097007818468611052014-01-29T18:24:27.122-08:002014-01-29T18:24:27.122-08:00And finally, perhaps most poignant of all, but gre...<i>And finally, perhaps most poignant of all, but greatly underrated, is the fact that that identical twins are not actually genetically identical, but possess subtle differences due to de novo mutations. While behavioral geneticists and others like to ignore these, identical twins are our metric of the effects of heredity.</i><br /><br />They ignore them because most mutations are neutral.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-416427041469527802014-01-29T18:06:31.369-08:002014-01-29T18:06:31.369-08:00"For example, as a child I went out of the wa...<i>"For example, as a child I went out of the way to create an environment for myself that was conducive to my tastes for the intellectual life (e.g., spending a lot of the time at the library -- and I benefited from living two-blocks from the library), but as a middle-aged man I've totally gone over the top in arranging my environment to suit my innate predilection."</i><br /><br />It looks like you're describing gene-environment correlations. While they sound plausible conceptually, and they are rather popular with those interested in heredity, there actually isn't much evidence that they matter much at all. Meng Hu had a great discussion on the topic:<br /><br /><a href="http://menghusblog.wordpress.com/2013/07/31/the-genetics-of-intelligence/" rel="nofollow">The Genetics of Intelligence « Meng Hu’s Blog</a><br /><br />Pinker raises an important, and much under-considered matter with developmental noise.<br /><br />However, to quote myself at <a href="http://hbdchick.wordpress.com/2013/12/11/the-transition-from-shame-to-guilt-in-anglo-saxon-england-and-core-europe/#comment-37068" rel="nofollow">HBD Chick</a> & <a href="http://staffanspersonalityblog.wordpress.com/2014/01/21/the-nurture-enigma-how-does-the-environment-influence-human-nature/comment-page-1/#comment-2231" rel="nofollow">Staffan's</a>:<br /><br />However, what’s left over, after you’ve accounted for “attenuated heredity” may be what’s known developmental noise. This is “environmental” in the sense that it’s not inherited, but is essentially random and not subject to controlled manipulation.<br /><br />Or we think it’s random. See Kevin Mitchell on it:<br /><br />http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KDFh74eENuw<br /><br />And finally, perhaps most poignant of all, but greatly underrated, is the fact that that identical twins are not actually genetically identical, but possess subtle differences due to de novo mutations. While behavioral geneticists and others like to ignore these, identical twins are our metric of the effects of heredity. We think we can precisely measure the genetic effect vs “environmental” one by looking at identical twins raised together – anything different between them must be due to environment, so the story goes. But the differences between them could be due to genes, so in reality, we have no idea how big the effect of the “environment” truly is.<br /><br />These differences are starting to recognized as being potentially powerful, as seen from the differences of supposedly (but not truly) genetically identical mice:<br /><br /><a href="https://www.sciencenews.org/blog/scicurious/all-mice-are-same-until-theyre-not?mode=blog&context=131" rel="nofollow">All mice are the same, until they’re not | Science News</a><br /><br />Genetic tests that can distinguish between identical twins <a href="http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/science-news/10511087/Identical-twins-need-never-be-tried-for-same-crime-after-DNA-breakthrough.html" rel="nofollow">are becoming available</a>. This is an underappreciated goldmine in future research into genes and environment.JayManhttp://jaymans.wordpress.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-59904418703914402752014-01-29T17:50:27.001-08:002014-01-29T17:50:27.001-08:00The future.
Gene therapy for the rich.
Bean the...The future. <br /><br />Gene therapy for the rich.<br /><br />Bean therapy for the poor. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-64603881896506049092014-01-29T17:29:34.192-08:002014-01-29T17:29:34.192-08:00I would prefer scientists to better measure mutati...<i>I would prefer scientists to better measure mutations et al. rather than differences in how parents treat twins. The latter strikes me as much more idiosyncratic. After all, who truly understands parental behavior?</i> <br /><br /><br />I repeat, the fact that you don't understand something does not mean that it does not exist or is not important. Where would science be if this attitude had been applied to light? Sound? Gravity?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-38045489147449524052014-01-29T16:59:42.688-08:002014-01-29T16:59:42.688-08:00"gene" to refer to stretches of DNA that...<i>"gene" to refer to stretches of DNA that code for a protein</i><br /><br />It's a bit shocking that Pinker does not seem to be aware of genes that code for rRNA and tRNA... Or is he intentionally trying to create confusion where there is none? <br /><br />Also, there is not a single developmental biologist that is unaware of the role random events can play in gene expression and development of phenotype. <br /><br />To say that this somehow means that Behavior =/= Genes + Environment makes no more sense than saying that poker game =/= skill + luck. I honestly thought that Pinker is smarter...<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-85496232372266678532014-01-29T15:42:26.248-08:002014-01-29T15:42:26.248-08:00>The inability to measure something is not an a...>The inability to measure something is not an argument against the things existence, it's an argument in favor of better measuring techniques.<<br /><br />It can also be an argument for completely reconceptualizing the field. No instrument will tell you how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, correct?<br /><br />That said, the resolution of these quirks might require big-time conceptual overhauling, but probably not.<br /><br />I would prefer scientists to better measure mutations et al. rather than differences in how parents treat twins. The latter strikes me as much more idiosyncratic. After all, who truly understands parental behavior?Davidhttp://david-passingparade3.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-53388414935480513242014-01-29T15:14:14.974-08:002014-01-29T15:14:14.974-08:00Anonymous said...
'"I've totally gone... Anonymous said...<br />'"I've totally gone over the top in arranging my environment to suit my innate predilection."<br /><br />'Let me guess. Sailer lives in an underground bunker on a golf course.'<br /><br />An underground bunker well-stocked with Natty Light, from what little I can gather. In the Valley.slumber_jnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-58718690562360279572014-01-29T15:12:55.405-08:002014-01-29T15:12:55.405-08:00"but another is that people with a given geno..."but another is that people with a given genotype place themselves in environments that indulge their inborn tastes and talents."<br /><br />There is a community. There's a church, a pool hall, a library, a movie theater, a ball park. <br /><br />There are five people. <br />One spends most time at church, another at pool hall, another at library, another at movie theater, another at ball park. <br /><br />So, they are in the same environment but they engage with it in very different ways. For each, the places they ignore might as well not even exist while they place they frequent could mean everything. <br /><br />Also, mood affects how one looks at environment. If a person is shot with happy drug on monday, sad drug on tuesday, angry drug on wednesday, lazy drug on thursday, and crazy drug on friday, he will perceive and engage with his environment in very different ways on each of the days. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-68892248160007409642014-01-29T14:59:20.639-08:002014-01-29T14:59:20.639-08:00this category really should be called "miscel...<i>this category really should be called "miscellaneous/unknown," because it has nothing necessarily to do with any measurable aspect of the environment</i> <br /><br /><br />The inability to measure something is not an argument against the things existence, it's an argument in favor of better measuring techniques.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-13238357924181191822014-01-29T14:56:57.523-08:002014-01-29T14:56:57.523-08:00"I've totally gone over the top in arrang..."I've totally gone over the top in arranging my environment to suit my innate predilection."<br /><br />Let me guess. Sailer lives in an underground bunker on a golf course. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-52257335755206302402014-01-29T14:55:36.473-08:002014-01-29T14:55:36.473-08:00Based on my own admittedly small sample size, I ha...Based on my own admittedly small sample size, I have to say that I find the notion that children who grow up in the same family share an identical environment to be laughable. Parents do treat children differently, sometimes extremely differently.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-81374006098593035582014-01-29T14:53:47.369-08:002014-01-29T14:53:47.369-08:00White Americans. From cowboys to cowards. White Americans. From cowboys to cowards. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com