tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post5425524239811056909..comments2024-03-28T16:22:14.888-07:00Comments on Steve Sailer: iSteve: TNR: Sailer Probably Right, But Still EvilUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger125125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-4585817480007921022009-05-15T23:20:00.000-07:002009-05-15T23:20:00.000-07:00I am stunned by your (Mr. Sailer's) self-satisfact...I am stunned by your (Mr. Sailer's) self-satisfaction, defensiveness, and seeming inability to reflect. Were you always this headstrong? Was there ever a time in your life when you weren't such a crusader for racial difference? Is there any way for an intelligent person to criticize your premises or argumentation and actually get you to listen to his or her arguments? <br /><br />Speaking of statistics, I'd be interested to find out what percentage of your regular readers are skinheads or members of the KKK. I would wager that the average IQ of Saletan's readership is significantly higher than that of your readership. I would then be curious to find out what kind of analysis you would apply to such a statistical outcome.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-30293314078566545182009-05-14T11:24:00.000-07:002009-05-14T11:24:00.000-07:00Ivy League Bastard, I'm not an Ivy League Bastard ...Ivy League Bastard, I'm not an Ivy League Bastard so your question appears oddly framed to me but my understanding is you are asking what policy position are some HBDers now advocating that they would not advocate for or advocate less for if further research revealed that intelligence, etc. were equally distributed among the varying ethnic groups? I can't speak for all but I would be less passionate against illegal Mexican immigration if it turns out group IQ's are naturally equal. The fear is that descendants of illegals who can't make as much money in the market because of lower natural IQ will use polical means to force redistibutions.treyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05492508216424438001noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-79218976142789782492009-05-12T15:06:00.000-07:002009-05-12T15:06:00.000-07:00John McWhorter is a very smart guy but could it be...John McWhorter is a very smart guy but could it be because he's more white than black? He should kick that issue around a bit. Indeed, most of the intelligent 'blacks' tend to be more white than black genetically. Just look at the black scholar line-up. Musically, it doesn't seem to matter. Smartest blacks of all tend to have Jewish genes. <br /><br />And, when it comes to physical strength, black genes are most useful. Could Brian Clay won the decathalon if he only had Japanese genes and no black genes? Or, how about that Pittsburgh Steelers football player who's half Korean and half black. I think it was the black part of him that made him a great athlete. After all, there are many all-black players in the NFL but no all-Asian players.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-52294297430078821472009-05-12T06:00:00.000-07:002009-05-12T06:00:00.000-07:00"How/why does this site seem to have so many weird..."How/why does this site seem to have so many weirdo's with an asian fetish? Sheesh!"<br /><br />It's so that guys can justify being cowed by their Asian wives. :)<br /><br />Anyway, for example Japan is a country full of people with a lot on the ball IQ-wise, but if it weren't for White Power they would still be spending their time beating themselves over the heads with clubs. The finest, sharpest clubs known to man, but clubs nonetheless.Evil Sandmichhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06094558583013380137noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-44492168619770310712009-05-11T10:47:00.000-07:002009-05-11T10:47:00.000-07:00Ivy League Bastard said:
"But none of that requir...Ivy League Bastard said:<br /><br />"But none of that requires any assumptions about genetics. Non-genetically-construed IQ, non-genetic poverty, non-genetic crime rates, etc can be quite hereditary (in the way that religion or literacy are), so one is in no way debarred from arguing about group characteristics without speculating on genetics. At what point do Sailer/HDB/iSteve types gain anything, anything at all, from adding a (disputed) genetic element to arguments that rest only on measured (undisputable) group differences?"<br /><br />It really has to do with the politics of guilt. You are correct that group differences exist and can be passed on with or without gentics playing a role. However, it is important to determine causality. We can note differences, but if we don't know why they exist, this leaves a lot of room for wrong-headed and costly social policy that is bound to fail. If we don't determine the genetic and environmental causation of group differences, then that allows the AA crowd to blame everthing on racism. Whites must know what role, if any, they play in ethic differences in performance and behavior. Right know many believe, or are browbeaten into professing that they believe, that they are the sole problem. This prevents them from bargaining effectively in their own interests.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-75081631633291891242009-05-11T00:38:00.000-07:002009-05-11T00:38:00.000-07:00"It is important that whites know both the perform..."It is important that whites know both the performance and behavioral stats, scale of preferences, and the causative factors so that they can come to the table and effectively bargain in their own interests."<br /><br />But none of that requires any assumptions about genetics. Non-genetically-construed IQ, non-genetic poverty, non-genetic crime rates, etc can be quite hereditary (in the way that religion or literacy are), so one is in no way debarred from arguing about group characteristics without speculating on genetics. At what point do Sailer/HDB/iSteve types gain anything, anything at all, from adding a (disputed) genetic element to arguments that rest only on measured (undisputable) group differences?<br /><br />Sailer's FAQs on race and on IQ don't address this point (i.e., this question of McWhorter's).Ivy League Bastardnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-44597548455103346242009-05-10T13:59:00.000-07:002009-05-10T13:59:00.000-07:00Ivy League Bastard said:
"If the assumed genetic ...Ivy League Bastard said:<br /><br />"If the assumed genetic differences have no application other than to discussion of assumed genetic differences, they don't matter much."<br /><br />True, but it is important to know such things because eventually they will matter. It appears that diverse America is doomed to be dominated by a racial spoils system for allocating goodies. At the moment, whites are brow beat that they and they alone are guilty for all of NAMs problems and that they should help them. They should understand other causative factors as well, as this will help them approach the bargaining table with more rational, less guilty disposition. Also, while they are generally aware that NAMs get preferences at their expense and that they behave badly (crime, etc.), the media/entertainment industry/education system does a pretty good job of obfuscating the truly mindboggling scale of preferences, transfers and misbehavior to the average white person (especially women struck by appeals to emotion). It is important that whites know both the performance and behavioral stats, scale of preferences, and the causative factors so that they can come to the table and effectively bargain in their own interests. This doesn't mean that blacks don't get some special treatment due to their history of slavery, but everthing should be on the table and open to bargaining. Whites should make informed decisions on how much "Danegeld" they are willing to pay.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-1522096610250314712009-05-10T13:48:00.000-07:002009-05-10T13:48:00.000-07:00Anonymous asks:
"This is where I lose my grip on ...Anonymous asks:<br /><br />"This is where I lose my grip on genetical thingumy whatsits. I thought that selective breeding could raise IQ. In the above case its selection for lower IQ."<br /><br />It can work both ways - you can breed for more or less of a trait (such as g). The problem we have in all modern societies is that we extend adolesence through a long education period for the more intelligent and make it very expensive to properly raise children in the matter expected for high SES families. Additionally, their jobs often demand a lot of time and can discourage childrearing (especially for women). This encourages them to have fewer kids and at older ages. At the same time, social welfare programs and trasfers subsidize the least able women and allow them to have large families at young ages that survive to adulthood without paternal support. They also have little oppurtinity cost for not being in the workforce. <br /><br />Before the 19th century, the opposite was true. The wealthy outbread the poor, who without being subsidized generally did not replace themselves and gradually exited the gene pool. (See Gregoy Clarke's work).<br /><br />"Yet recently here on isteve its been noted that the offspring of well off black middle class couples perform no better (worse in fact) than poor whites. Im told thats regression to the mean, these high IQ blacks remain outliers because their offspring will be closer to the black average. Why does this effect not apply to low IQ black women (in reverse)?"<br /><br />It does, but the overall mean of the black population, to which they regress, is lower in succeeding generations as the mean drops. Also, this is not the only reason why the children of high SES blacks perform poorly on measures of g. Among others is the fact that success in attaining a high SES is not purely based on g<br />and there is some evidence that blacks have outgoing personal qualities that are advantageous in some settings. Also, high SES blacks may be credentialized, but how good are they really on average. We've had AA for a long time now education, hiring and promotions and just remember that whatever degree they have have from a University, they've been spoted ca. 200 SAT points, 12 LSAT points, etc. If the same standards were applied to them as whites or Asians, they may not be in the position they are in.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-41201237300678265832009-05-10T12:44:00.000-07:002009-05-10T12:44:00.000-07:00Yet recently here on isteve its been noted that th...<I>Yet recently here on isteve its been noted that the offspring of well off black middle class couples perform no better (worse in fact) than poor whites. Im told thats regression to the mean, these high IQ blacks remain outliers because their offspring will be closer to the black average. Why does this effect not apply to low IQ black women (in reverse)?<br /><br />I not trying to through a liberal spanner in the works here, I just wish someone would explain it. Im sure Im just missing a piece of the puzzle.</I>No, it's a very good question. I was just wondering the same thing myself.ben tillmannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-88552609960663430422009-05-09T22:36:00.000-07:002009-05-09T22:36:00.000-07:00I think standardized test and superior outcomes on...<I>I think standardized test and superior outcomes only reflect the ability to test well on standized tests.</I> - Thrasher<br /><br />Are the higher dropout rates, higher crime rates, lower average SAT scores, and lower IQ test scores among blacks all a matter of pure coincidence? <br /><br />What sort of Pearson's r would be your minimum to accept that there is a correlation between IQ test scores and crime rates? <br /><br />What sort of Pearson's r would be your minimum to accept that there is a correlation between, say, SAT scores and dropout rates? <br /><br />If the currently measured r exceeds this, does this imply that graduating from college only reflects the ability to test well on standardized tests? <br /><br />Is there any life outcome which is inherently important, or would any life outcome which correlates strongly with a standardized test be unimportant for that reason?B322https://www.blogger.com/profile/18257802768718375656noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-21302151943040650642009-05-09T20:16:00.000-07:002009-05-09T20:16:00.000-07:00Anonymous: It depends what you mean by appreciably...<B>Anonymous:</B> <I>It depends what you mean by appreciably. You're right that you're not going to get huge changes (like 1/2 S.D. or something). Murray is talking about perhaps a 1 or 2 point drop per generation due to dysgenic breeding.</I> <br /><br />No, actually what Murray saw was a 3.5 point drop in IQ [from 83.7 to 80.2 - <A HREF="http://www.bible-researcher.com/murray1.html#note44" REL="nofollow">see footnote #44</A>] within just a generation.<br /><br />And remember that a "generation" in the black community can be as little as 15 years.<br /><br />By my calculations, this means that in just the two decades from circa 1979 to circa 1999 [or, even worse - was it the two decades from 1959 to 1979 ???], American Blacks may have lost upwards of three millenia's worth of selective breeding for intelligence [my gut feeling is that it takes at least 750 years to breed just a one point IQ increase into a population].<br /><br /><br />******************************<br />******************************<br /><br /><br /><B>beowulf:</B> <I>If, in fact, someday its widely accepted that blacks are genetically doomed to have lower average IQs than whites, it would make the case for affirmative action stronger, not weaker. Federal laws protecting the disabled require that employer and schools make "reasonable accommodations" for the person's disability. Since a low IQ citizen can no more choose his immutable condition than a paraplegic citizen, well, that opens the door to far more sweeping social engineering than exists today (i.e. hard quotas).</I> <br /><br />Exactly.<br /><br />Which is why so many of us are thinking so seriously about secession - it is a mathematical certainty that the USA, as it is currently structured, cannot withstand this new tidal wave of - ah, what term would Komment Kontrol allow here? - "disfunctionality"?<br /><br />And, quite frankly, we have no desire to go down with the ship.Lucius Vorenusnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-38912119172393605912009-05-09T00:19:00.000-07:002009-05-09T00:19:00.000-07:00McWhorter's question is obviously
important: supp...McWhorter's question is obviously<br />important: supporters of HBD-positive (to coin a term) Ethnic Studies claim it's all-important to everything, but if no policy does (or can) depend on the genetics, then the HBD is an academic parlor game. Interesting conversation fodder for the internet, but ultimately a lot of sound and fury summing to zero.<br /><br />If the assumed genetic differences have no application other than to discussion of assumed genetic differences, they don't matter much. <br /><br />OK, there is one application domain of HBD ideas: human mate selection. The policy implications were tried out last century with, um, "mixed" success.Ivy League Bastardnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-91478395363193274602009-05-08T21:56:00.000-07:002009-05-08T21:56:00.000-07:00Well McWhorter has written in TNR about Direct Ins...Well McWhorter has written in TNR about Direct Instruction and how it blew away every other teaching method in the Project Follow Through study. <br />http://tinyurl.com/7b8ehf<br /><br />When someone as brilliant and well read as Charles Murray was ignorant of Project Follow Through when he published his education book, I'd say McWhorter is definitely smarter than the average bear.<br />http://tinyurl.com/ophshh<br /><br />If, in fact, someday its widely accepted that blacks are genetically doomed to have lower average IQs than whites, it would make the case for affirmative action stronger, not weaker. <br /><br />Federal laws protecting the disabled require that employer and schools make "reasonable accommodations" for the person's disability. Since a low IQ citizen can no more choose his immutable condition than a paraplegic citizen, well, that opens the door to far more sweeping social engineering than exists today (i.e. hard quotas).beowulfnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-79253354653014085662009-05-08T19:25:00.000-07:002009-05-08T19:25:00.000-07:00Murray has pointed to evidence of growing divergen...<I>Murray has pointed to evidence of growing divergence due to dysgenic breeding amoung blacks. In the NLSY sample (the basis for much of the Bell Curve), 58% of black births were to women below the black average</I>,<br /><br />This is where I lose my grip on genetical thingumy whatsits.<br /><br />I thought that selective breeding could raise IQ. In the above case its selection for lower IQ.<br /><br />Yet recently here on isteve its been noted that the offspring of well off black middle class couples perform no better (worse in fact) than poor whites. Im told thats regression to the mean, these high IQ blacks remain outliers because their offspring will be closer to the black average. Why does this effect not apply to low IQ black women (in reverse)?<br /><br />I not trying to through a liberal spanner in the works here, I just wish someone would explain it. Im sure Im just missing a piece of the puzzle.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-68397802766258522312009-05-08T16:00:00.000-07:002009-05-08T16:00:00.000-07:00And I just have to wonder, if I acknowledge lower ...<I>And I just have to wonder, if I acknowledge lower black IQ out of feelings of inferiority, does that mean I acknowledge higher yellow IQ out of feelings of inferiority, too? Or is that my superiority complex talking? So now I have multiple personality disorder too</I>?<br /><br />Of course the only rational explanation here is all you IQ fetish guys are actually Asians <I>pretending</I> to be white people. "Sailer's" picture is actually that of the genial white guy who grooms his dog.Erichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10330712047609650184noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-66079467385043373072009-05-08T14:39:00.000-07:002009-05-08T14:39:00.000-07:00This is a interesting subject matter as a Black ac...This is a interesting subject matter as a Black activist I am enjoying every angle . I have issues with both McWhorter( a lousy writer) and Saletan ( A liberal bigot)... I do not as of yet think Sailer is a evil white person to be feared..I have no problem with uncensored speech and commentary..<br /><br />My quick take on this issue:<br /><br />I think standardized test and superior outcomes only reflect the ability to test well on standized tests.<br /><br />I also think test results and outcomes are the last bastion of white supremacy in a global world where whites are in a cultural meltdown and no longer viewed as the center of the universe..<br /><br />The superior test outcomes of Asian students are a trend that has broken down to a degree the foundation of white supremacy if one relies on test scores as the basis for measure of merit and intellectual superiority.<br /><br />I do not support this position nor the value of tests and the defining proof of merit and superiority.<br /><br />In part that is why I do not lose to much sleep over the NAEP findings or the national issue of Black students and our inferior test outcomes.<br /><br />I have no problem with the inference that Black folks for whatever reason simply do not test well.<br /><br />For me the real metric is reality and in 2009 it is obvious the influence and dominance of white folks simply is not only inflated but reveals a cultural that is in decay...<br /><br />I use the BIG BEN RACE CLOCK to illustrate my reasoning ..for 23 hours and 45 minutes white folks have ruled and influence our nation from slavery to segregation, separate but equal, disparate treatment, racial profiling to now a global meltdown as a Black man I have 15 minutes to stop the meltdown and fix the decay created by white folks stewardship of our nation...My clock is ticking..tic , toc, tic, toc..lol,lol,lolPlane Ideas https://www.blogger.com/profile/13838821721942426785noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-74712748107938262952009-05-08T11:08:00.000-07:002009-05-08T11:08:00.000-07:00Your logic and analysis don't faze these people, S...Your logic and analysis don't faze these people, Steve, and they will attack you for it instead because their perspective is religious, not scientific. They are not about analyzing the data to see what it means: they are about fitting the data to fit their view of the world. See Galileo, et al.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-86392996306168165682009-05-08T07:59:00.000-07:002009-05-08T07:59:00.000-07:00Face it, you're just a complete screw-up.
I know...<I>Face it, you're just a complete screw-up.</I> <br /><br />I know! I'm so confuuuuuused!Svigorhttp://majorityrights.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-42249653724451476632009-05-08T04:27:00.000-07:002009-05-08T04:27:00.000-07:00RE: Mark Wethman's post.
Let's keep in mind that ...RE: Mark Wethman's post.<br /><br />Let's keep in mind that low IQ black women are almost certainly having more children than high IQ black women - and starting at a much earlier age. One reason that the illegitimacy rate in the black community went up so high is that married better educated middle class black women were having fewer children.<br /><br />In my experience in the DC area, middle class black women, especially college educated women, are similar to middle class white women in their child-bearing. They usually had no more than one or two children and had them after they completed their education, often in their late 20's or even older. Many had no children.<br /><br />What's "a generation"? <br /><br />A college-educated black woman has 2 children starting at 28. She raises them in a traditional middle-class way and so isn't a grandmother until her late 50's. Around the time she's 65, there are 3 generations - her, 2 children, and maybe 4 grandchildren.<br /><br />Meanwhile over in the projects, a 16-year-old with her first baby is still living with her 30-something mother and other siblings and across the court is her 50-something (or younger) grandmother. By the time this Grandma is 65, how many generations will there have been? And how many offspring? What does this do to average IQ if there is a bigger increase in lower IQ persons?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-54564459295251569432009-05-07T20:16:00.000-07:002009-05-07T20:16:00.000-07:00Mark Wethman said:
"I doubt very much the two gen...Mark Wethman said:<br /><br />"I doubt very much the two generations of moderate dysgenic breeding is enough to lower average black IQ appreciably."<br /><br />It depends what you mean by appreciably. You're right that you're not going to get huge changes (like 1/2 S.D. or something). Murray is talking about perhaps a 1 or 2 point drop per generation due to dysgenic breeding. In the Bell Curve he and Herrnstein discuss the effects on society of raising or dropig the mean IQ by just 3 points. It makes quite a large difference in average outcomes. If the black-white difference increases from 1.1 or 1.2 to 1.2 or 1.3 S.D., you will notice a significant aggregate effect in group outcomes.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-57514120517775982582009-05-07T18:16:00.000-07:002009-05-07T18:16:00.000-07:00"To the anonymous who referenced Geronimo's post a..."To the anonymous who referenced Geronimo's post about Asian greatness:<br /><br />"Dude, don't you see the tongue he's got in his cheek there? (Metaphorically speaking, of course.)"<br /><br />That would be me; and you all are totally right: <br /><br />Geronimo was just being ironic (sorry bro)!<br /><br />It was a real loong night and drank way too much coffee the day/evening before...<br /><br />Thanks for pointing it all out to me. I learn something interesting from this site every day!<br /><br />~Peace in the Middle East~Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-22833687002426142252009-05-07T18:11:00.000-07:002009-05-07T18:11:00.000-07:00Ivy League Bastard said:
McWhorter is raising thi...Ivy League Bastard said:<br /><br /><I>McWhorter is raising this point when he asks "what legislation might bear Sailer's imprint". Where's the (genetic HBD) beef?</I>Since you keep repeating it, I'm sorry to let you know that it's <I>not</I> a very good question at all. Indeed, it's a quite stupid one. By what criterion of adequacy must someone who is <I>only</I> pointing out facts that virtually no one else will put their name to (myself included) perform the <I>additional</I> task of stating some policy application that flows from those (again) <I>facts</I>? People who are interested in science and the facts would be perfectly happy if those interested in policy would actually keep those facts in mind when they make policy. That's Steve's job, as I take it. <br /><br />You state that conservatives would be against AA no matter what the genetic facts are. OF COURSE. That's because it's inherently unfair. And no, AA wouldn't be more called for if it were determined that the group cognitive deficits were true. What Murray and Hernstein proposed was not AA, but other types of amelioration. Would you be happy to know your surgeon was an AA admit Med student, Resident, and Fellowship recipient, just because the difference between them and another non AA beneficiary were genetic?Deckinnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-54875846406144779972009-05-07T16:05:00.000-07:002009-05-07T16:05:00.000-07:00McWhorter says:
Poor black kids are routinely sub...McWhorter says:<br /><br /><I>Poor black kids are routinely subject to less qualified teachers, who stick around for less time, than poor white kids.<br /></I>Actually, the causality is the other way. Teachers are subjected to more grief by poor black kids than by poor white kids, so they consequently stick around for less time at schools with lots of poor black kids.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-24361766496684738692009-05-07T14:58:00.000-07:002009-05-07T14:58:00.000-07:00re: Geronimo said on world adoption of Easter Cult...re: Geronimo said on world adoption of Easter Culture..come on people, Irony Much? He's joking.<br /><br />re:Stopped Clock- you contend that racial inequalities are the root of all war etc? That's why the Germans attacked into massively differant France, really?<br /><br />re: kiss the goat- "I think Whites would be free to move away from poor areas, and towns wouldn't bus their kids back to poor schools, or vice-versa. Ie, self-segregation would happen. " How is that not a perfect description of de facto housing patterns? Or are you joking like Geronimo and I'm not getting it this time?regularjoenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-49129797147363812722009-05-07T14:01:00.000-07:002009-05-07T14:01:00.000-07:00Asians who are supposedly so smart don't have as m...<I>Asians who are supposedly so smart don't have as much to show for the past 2,500 years of history as the supposedly less bright Westerners.<br /></I>You didn't let us in on your calculus of superiority.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com