tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post634539963749869560..comments2024-03-28T16:22:14.888-07:00Comments on Steve Sailer: iSteve: Is the American wedding system an in-direct dowry?Unknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger44125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-86940939354101987252013-05-03T17:07:30.006-07:002013-05-03T17:07:30.006-07:00"Interestingly, there does seem to be a "..."Interestingly, there does seem to be a "new tradition" of a dowry in Hong Kong--the price of housing is so high that almost no young people can afford to have a home. Parents (who rode the wave of opportunity in the 1980's and after) have to help out. "<br /><br />I've seen A LOT of this in Seoul, S. Korea. The cost of real estate is extremely hight, and it's hard for a middle class young(ish) couple to afford anything that's not a filthy hole.<br /><br />On the other hand, I've noticed that, just as the kids over there are expected to follow a predetermined life plan, the parents are expected to invest everything they have into their kids. It's not so much that the parents are expected to pay for a wedding or an appartment, but that they are expected to pay for anything they can possibly afford. Mayanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-7549424232311524842013-05-03T10:35:21.029-07:002013-05-03T10:35:21.029-07:00Married in Hong Kong some years ago to a Chinese w...Married in Hong Kong some years ago to a Chinese woman. Wedding--over 200 guests, net loss financially but MIL was satisfied. Deficit covered mostly by the MIL. <br /><br />Interestingly, there does seem to be a "new tradition" of a dowry in Hong Kong--the price of housing is so high that almost no young people can afford to have a home. Parents (who rode the wave of opportunity in the 1980's and after) have to help out. <br /><br />Second interesting detail--for us, the dowry from the MIL came when we had children--i.e., when it became obvious that our marriage was serious. Jerrynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-44263485309332842442013-05-03T09:30:33.163-07:002013-05-03T09:30:33.163-07:00For example, it's illegal for the parents of a...<i> For example, it's illegal for the parents of a newly married couple to make the down payment on their house on their behalf, and would pay taxes if they gave them a gift over, what, $12K these days?</i><br /><br />Really? This is illegal, and you can't just give cash gifts to people? I had no idea.<br /><br /><i>How much should be spent on a wedding when one's 25 yr old daughter, against her parent's strong opposition, accepts a proposal from a 36 year old guy with no education and no steady job? Are we expected to put on a big wedding for this guy who is already mooching off our daughter with no change in sight?</i><br /><br />"Nothing" and "no".<br /><br />Then again, myself, I wasn't aware of this idea that a bride's family is expected to pay for anything, seeing as how my in-laws were dirt poor country folks and we paid for our small, non-extravangant wedding ourselves. The system being described herein doesn't really seem very fair.Samson J.http://samsonsjawbone.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-91276731008175758192013-05-03T08:49:09.816-07:002013-05-03T08:49:09.816-07:00Miss Manners, by the way, has consistently condemn...Miss Manners, by the way, has consistently condemned the idea that a gift should be obliged to equal the cost of the guest's share of the reception. It is a gift, she says, not a business transaction.James Kabalahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02335302113772004687noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-83408566552558793092013-05-03T06:46:31.772-07:002013-05-03T06:46:31.772-07:00Semi-employed White Guy said...
How much should be...Semi-employed White Guy said...<br /><i>How much should be spent on a wedding when one's 25 yr old daughter, against her parent's strong opposition, accepts a proposal from a 36 year old guy with no education and no steady job? Are we expected to put on a big wedding for this guy who is already mooching off our daughter with no change in sight?"</i><br /><br />I think I'd go for the old "You're an adult, so I can't stop you from being a damned fool, but <i>I'm</i> damned if I'm going to fork out good money so you can marry that worthless s.o.b. in style."<br /><br />Yes, I have a daughter getting to marriageable age, and yes, I would say that to her.Rohan Sweenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-57873969735505828152013-05-03T04:19:20.512-07:002013-05-03T04:19:20.512-07:00Hmmm. I need more supporting arguments, Steve. If ...Hmmm. I need more supporting arguments, Steve. If the function of a dowry is to provide the groom with seed money or an estate property to get the marriage off the ground, I’m not so sure. Unless the bride’s parents provide the newlywed couple something like that, I don’t know how you can call it an indirect dowry. <br />Since the guests attending most weddings are roughly half split between the bride’s friends and family and the groom’s friends and family, any gifts/money from them cancel each other out. So you’re left with who fronts the sunk cost of the wedding and reception, which are the bride’s parents. I don’t see how that is an “investment” to launch the relationship, because it’s a onetime event, and the bride’s parents can’t recover that sunk cost. As I said, if the bride’s parents provide property, a house, or perhaps the house down payment, then I would consider that a dowry. In theory, if the marriage fails, the bride’s parents could recover this type of initial investment (as long as the wife gets title to it in any divorce settlement).Captain Trippshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02303143412847947308noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-50985737426019264502013-05-03T00:48:59.395-07:002013-05-03T00:48:59.395-07:00" Semi-employed White Guy said...
This is a t..." Semi-employed White Guy said...<br />This is a timely topic for me. I'd love to hear the iSteve-o-sphere's opinions on this. <br /><br />How much should be spent on a wedding when one's 25 yr old daughter, against her parent's strong opposition, accepts a proposal from a 36 year old guy with no education and no steady job? Are we expected to put on a big wedding for this guy who is already mooching off our daughter with no change in sight?"<br /><br />Speaker Boehner, is that you?Uncle Peregrinenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-90109983824203011492013-05-02T22:51:35.429-07:002013-05-02T22:51:35.429-07:00I believe that the purpose of the modern fancy wed...I believe that the purpose of the modern fancy wedding is to give the bride something to do with her nervous energy. It seems like in Jane Austen, Trollope, etc, up to the 1950's "Father of the Bride" with Elizabeth Taylor, the father of the bride planned the wedding while the bride fussed over her trousseau. Now that married women aren't expected to start dressing matronly, no one has a trousseau anymore, and so brides have nothing to fuss over except the wedding itself.Lauranoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-20629847222254686152013-05-02T21:03:08.846-07:002013-05-02T21:03:08.846-07:00Confirmed that the Chinese way of giving wedding g...Confirmed that the Chinese way of giving wedding gifts is admirable: cash (or cash-equivalent money orders), straight up, in a red pocket. No fuss, no muss for givers and receivers!<br /><br />Most people here (I'm in Hong Kong) give enough to cover the cost of their presence at a wedding banquet, so for the couple (or the groom's family, if they're taking the traditional path and paying for the party) it's usually at worst a wash financially. Some relatives also give gold jewelry to the bride, but this practice seems to be slowing down a bit.<br /><br />When my wife and I held our wedding, quite a few of our guests were western expats who gave actual gifts, so we ended up well in the red. <br /><br />I cannot overemphasize how much more sense it makes to simply give money at weddings. I know it's still considered gauche in the west, but man, couples end up in debt staring at a collection of material objects they're never going to get good value from. <br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-88691822433803214692013-05-02T20:46:35.655-07:002013-05-02T20:46:35.655-07:00Like pretty near everything else, the American wed...Like pretty near everything else, the American wedding system itself is all screwed up. <br /><br />As the meaning of "marriage" even between a man and woman deteriorates - with couples living together openly before the formal ceremony takes place - the size and cost of the proceedings has expanded greatly. It makes no sense whatsoever.Old fogeynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-19988518781623348852013-05-02T20:34:12.233-07:002013-05-02T20:34:12.233-07:00that's the east asian way... i believethat's the east asian way... i believeAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-46907125386917393982013-05-02T20:00:14.273-07:002013-05-02T20:00:14.273-07:00"I know several couples who would have rather..."I know several couples who would have rather received money or an extravagant honeymoon as opposed to a fancy wedding ceremony. But in every case the mother of the bride demanded a traditional wedding."<br /><br />Holy crap! That's us! It's nice to know that, for a Soviet girl who had a court house wedding followed by a dinner at her parents', just like all her peers, my mom now has such Western sensibilities. Assimilation is key...Mayanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-9149769073565122512013-05-02T18:57:16.389-07:002013-05-02T18:57:16.389-07:00@steve - "In China, the bride joins the groom...@steve - <i>"In China, the bride joins the groom's family and leaves her biological family behind...."</i><br /><br />genetically speaking, she typically left her <i>paternal</i> biological family behind, but often united up with her maternal biological family since <a href="http://hbdchick.wordpress.com/2012/02/08/cousin-marriage-in-china/" rel="nofollow">maternal cousin marriage was preferred for a very long time in china</a>.<br /><br />financially speaking, though, things have been run along patrilineal lines in china for pretty much forever.hbd chickhttp://hbdchick.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-48428791366149645942013-05-02T18:16:52.187-07:002013-05-02T18:16:52.187-07:00My older brother called the guests who gave a gift...My older brother called the guests who gave a gift less than their share of the reception cost, "costers." He was (pretty much) joking around though, as gauche as it sounds.FWGnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-48567099586512996212013-05-02T17:58:49.834-07:002013-05-02T17:58:49.834-07:00My daughter is in her mid-20s so I hear some weddi...My daughter is in her mid-20s so I hear some wedding stories from her. A lot of young couples pay for the wedding themselves and they borrow the money. For some reason, they want to have a big party. <br /><br />Of course, they always hope that people are going to give them cash gifts that cover the place setting but from what I hear, there is a lot of disappointment about the haul. They want to invite their friends and young people don't give much. They'll chip in $40 on a gift, maybe. Then they want to bring a date, too. And you're not getting $40, you're getting a gift that you might not need or want.<br /><br />How do you limit the guest list to people who will come up with the cost of their place setting? My daughter and her boyfriend are talking marriage so I've thought about it a bit. If my brother and his wife are invited, then his 2 daughters (ages 32 and 38) would have to be invited and how do you not invite the older one's 3 children (ages 6, 12 and 13). They'd all want to come. They'd all feel miffed if any of them weren't invited. My daughter would not get $200 total out of the 8 of them! A huge financial loss. directly.<br /><br />You can get around the gift limits by spreading it over 2 years. Its $13,000 per person per year for each gift-or so we could give $52,000 to the young couple with no tax penalty in one year. I'd much rather do that.<br /><br />Since when are these weddings fun for the guests? My policy for a long time has been to decline and send a $50 check rather than spend $300 or $400 for me and my husband to go to a wedding. We'd probably have to buy some clothes, too, because we don't need party clothes in our regular life. And to do what? Sit there and wait for the food? We can go out to a nice restaurant 3, 4, maybe 5 times for what it would cost to go to a wedding.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-32432927487739392962013-05-02T17:47:23.241-07:002013-05-02T17:47:23.241-07:00It's a combination of the dowry and the potlac...It's a combination of the dowry and the potlach.SMERSHnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-61094335402719020502013-05-02T17:42:59.091-07:002013-05-02T17:42:59.091-07:00Yes, Steve, that's exactly right. In tradition...Yes, Steve, that's exactly right. In traditional Chinese family arrangements, the tension between wife and husband's mother is notorious, because the latter can easily see herself as having 'bought' the former, and therefore having free rein to push her around. And the MIL is also likely to have suffered as a new bride herself, so she may have bushels of resentment built up over the decades just waiting for a legitimate target . . . .<br /><br />In this sense, paying for our own wedding due to orthogonal cultural expectations has bought my wife and me an out from some of the ongoing pressures that can plague intra-cultural marriages. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-40575155910273160432013-05-02T17:38:26.796-07:002013-05-02T17:38:26.796-07:00Of course, my wedding screwed the dowry thing all ...Of course, my wedding screwed the dowry thing all up by us eloping....Pochinkonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-19970047597113645692013-05-02T17:38:15.040-07:002013-05-02T17:38:15.040-07:00"remember one time I got married. My wife wou..."remember one time I got married. My wife would buy presents for every married female she'd ever met at Christmas time, thinking I couldn't work out that in essence, she was buying HERSELF dozens and dozens of presents, and that every wife she knew of participated in the same scam, whilst simultaneously making sure to point out to all and sundry the length and breadth of their magnanimity in such a time."<br /><br />For a minute I thought you were outlining some status marker I don't get or experience. But then I realized you were describing something called "exchanging presents." People have been doing it from time immemorial. I find it tedious usually, but sometimes it's fun to see what somebody else thinks is just the ticket for you.<br />wrapped and wirednoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-10506360764256732662013-05-02T17:37:40.090-07:002013-05-02T17:37:40.090-07:00It sounds like its more of an in-direct dowry as y...It sounds like its more of an in-direct dowry as your wife indicates. Which would make sense, as the husband has been traditionally the bread winner.Pochinkonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-70218769047022795292013-05-02T17:33:28.386-07:002013-05-02T17:33:28.386-07:00"in Chinese culture, it's the groom's..."in Chinese culture, it's the groom's family that is expected both to pay a price for the bride, and to foot the bill for the wedding."<br /><br />In China, the bride joins the groom's family and leaves her biological family behind, and is expected to work hard for mother-in-law. So, I guess it makes sense for China to be a bride-price culture, even though husbands also work very hard in Chinese agriculture.Steve Sailerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11920109042402850214noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-18206463586231775562013-05-02T17:29:20.010-07:002013-05-02T17:29:20.010-07:00One addendum to both this thread and the previous ...One addendum to both this thread and the previous one on traditional vs contemporary marriage.<br /><br />The aspiring bride on the previous thread directed her particular disdain against White male/Asian female cheapo weddings.<br /><br />Well, I fit that demographic (I live in China, but am American) and I can tell you by experience one good reason why such weddings may be underfunded: in Chinese culture, it's the groom's family that is expected both to pay a price for the bride, and to foot the bill for the wedding. In American culture, conversely, the bride's family is supposed to pay for the wedding. This leaves the happy couple in a bit of a bind: both sets of in-laws are expecting the other to pay! <br /><br />We simply paid for the whole deal ourselves to avoid trouble, and therefore did keep things relatively modest.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-50630427965513441062013-05-02T17:17:31.151-07:002013-05-02T17:17:31.151-07:00"I remember one time I got married. My wife w..."I remember one time I got married. My wife would buy presents for every married female she'd ever met at Christmas time, thinking I couldn't work out that in essence, she was buying HERSELF dozens and dozens of presents, and that every wife she knew of participated in the same scam, whilst simultaneously making sure to point out to all and sundry the length and breadth of their magnanimity in such a time."<br /><br />I can't believe I've been married for nearly a decade and never worked that one out. Maybe it's why I'm still married. :)<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-83453497830127387622013-05-02T16:59:12.258-07:002013-05-02T16:59:12.258-07:00Raymond Crotty noted in "When Histories Colli...Raymond Crotty noted in "When Histories Collide" that Ireland used to have a brideprice system (part of his argument that it resembles third world colonies), it was replaced by the dowry after conquest.TGGPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11017651009634767649noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-71060611978382071882013-05-02T16:54:30.768-07:002013-05-02T16:54:30.768-07:00"How much should be spent on a wedding when o..."How much should be spent on a wedding when one's 25 yr old daughter, against her parent's strong opposition, accepts a proposal from a 36 year old guy with no education and no steady job? Are we expected to put on a big wedding for this guy who is already mooching off our daughter with no change in sight?"<br /><br />No, the cost of the wedding should not be out of proportion to the likelihood of success of the marriage. Encourage an Elvis chapel marriage or something on the Carnival Cruise line with Captain Steubing.Julie the Cruise Directornoreply@blogger.com