tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post888683435201612427..comments2024-03-28T16:22:14.888-07:00Comments on Steve Sailer: iSteve: On the minimum wage and immigrationUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger59125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-37681134709762880092011-10-08T09:05:47.473-07:002011-10-08T09:05:47.473-07:00Sorry Steve, meant to point this out the other day...Sorry Steve, meant to point this out the other day but RL got in the way... The Universal Living Wage group has a diabolically clever idea that'd force metro areas to choice between either a high minimum wage or a low zoning tax-- Ed Glaeser's term for the regulatory cost tacked onto housing prices in (ahem) smart growth jurisdictions. Phase it in over a decade to give (using an extreme example) the Bay Area time to (a) adjust to a $22.90/hr minimum wage or (b) flood the market with new low-income housing or, most likely, something in between. <br /><br /><i>"We have devised a National formula that is based on each local economy throughout the entire United States. The formula is designed in such a manner that no matter whether you are in Austin, Boston, or L.A., if you are willing and able to work a 40 hour week, you should at least be able to afford a one-bedroom apartment.<br /> * Work a minimum 40 hour week<br /> * Spend no more than 30% of income on housing<br /> * Index the minimum wage to the local cost of housing as set each year by the US Department of HUD (Fair Market Rents)"</i><br />http://universallivingwage.org/beowulfhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14987548132065830204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-76056204253519178712011-10-06T11:55:59.288-07:002011-10-06T11:55:59.288-07:00"Raise the minimum wage and the vast majority..."Raise the minimum wage and the vast majority of businesses will obey."<br /><br />No they won't. The vast majority of businesses will comply on paper but in practise what they'll do is sub-contract minimum wage jobs to agencies and the agencies will employ the illegals.<br /><br />It's misdirection.<br /><br />Seal the border first. Until that is done every other policy is distraction and misdirection.Wandrinnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-65397147425708794232011-10-06T09:11:30.888-07:002011-10-06T09:11:30.888-07:00Better a wage subsidy for USA citizens only.Better a wage subsidy for USA citizens only.JWOhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00004178958481335795noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-1428137196460695472011-10-05T21:40:00.639-07:002011-10-05T21:40:00.639-07:00"If you want to stop illegal mmigration, star...<b>"If you want to stop illegal mmigration, start enforcing the laws currently on the books against it and add new ones if neccessary."</b> - Q<br /><br />Yes, but I've made that point - over and over and over again. I want to tackle illegal immigration directly. I think that nothing demonstrates our moment like the fall of guys like Bob Bennett, Chris Cannon, Mike Castle and now Rick Perry. How do you keep missing that? How many times do I have to spell that out? Good grief, whether it's this or the Amanda Knox case, it's like two conversations in a parallel universe.<br /><br />But <i>along with tackling immigration directly</i>, I believe that raising minimum wages would go a long way to reducing demand for illegals. We hit about 5% unemployment during the last boom. It's rare that we ever get unemployment that low. Businesses were adding millions of jobs that Americans weren't willing to do for just $7 an hour.<br /><br />Despite all the prognosticating here I suspect there's only one really good way to find out if a higher minimum wage will reduce illegal immigration - raise the minimum wage and find out.Captain Jack Aubreynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-47498808502859526422011-10-05T15:46:49.204-07:002011-10-05T15:46:49.204-07:00The incessant whining we heard from businesses in ...<i>The incessant whining we heard from businesses in the last decade about how they needed all these illegal immigrants to do "jobs Americans won't do" came about because they were able to create millions more $7.25/hour jobs than there were Americans to do them.</i> <br /> <br /><br /><br /><br />Now <i>that</i> is crap. There are always sufficient Americans to do whatever work needs doing. You're swallowing the employers propaganda hook, line and sinker in saying that they <i>had</i> to hire illegals to fill all these jobs they created.Qhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07558322957414189512noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-67544945722559162082011-10-05T15:43:08.291-07:002011-10-05T15:43:08.291-07:00There's nothing "odd" or "tripl...<i>There's nothing "odd" or "triple bank shot" about using higher minimum wages to slow demand for unskilled labor. Sounds pretty straightforward to me.</i> <br /> <br /><br />That's true, there is nothing in the least "odd" or "triple bank shot" about using higher minimum wages "to slow demand for unskilled labor".<br /><br />What is "odd" and "triple bank shot" is the theory that we can use higher minimum wages to slow illegal immigration.<br /><br />If you want to stop illegal mmigration, start enforcing the laws currently on the books against it and add new ones if neccessary. Don't write some law which may or may not have the <i>side effect</i> of slowing illegal immigration.Qhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07558322957414189512noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-4588736628516549302011-10-05T13:55:13.611-07:002011-10-05T13:55:13.611-07:00"There's lots of financial motivation to ...<i>"There's lots of financial motivation to avoid minimum wage laws, especially when off-the-books illegals are easily available for hire."</i> <br /><br /><i>True. However, if the illegals have the means and desire to turn you in...</i> <br /> <br /><br /><br /><br />The illegals will not have that means or that desire. As has already been pointed out, an implicit assumption of the Unz plan is that all the illegals are given amnesty. Otherwise any illegal who files a suit with the government against his employer will wind up getting deported himself.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-30962365104035180052011-10-05T13:50:17.445-07:002011-10-05T13:50:17.445-07:00Most of the employers currently hiring illegals wo...<i>Most of the employers currently hiring illegals would stop if the law were changed to make it actually illegal (by for example requiring e-verify or some of method of reliably determining eligibility).</i> <br /><br /><br />Most of the employers currently hiring are intensely opposed to mandatory E-Verify.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-79630904067696813392011-10-05T13:31:55.239-07:002011-10-05T13:31:55.239-07:00Ron Unz is the textbook case of the limited effect...Ron Unz is the textbook case of the limited effect of high intelligence on good judgement!Dutch Boyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02687679491743923216noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-90187391134435276562011-10-05T11:48:58.280-07:002011-10-05T11:48:58.280-07:00How did we skip over the fact that construction an...How did we skip over the fact that construction and farming companies ALREADY FLOUT THE MINIMUM WAGE LAWS WE ALREADY HAVE?!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-90227852476055192632011-10-05T09:28:10.432-07:002011-10-05T09:28:10.432-07:00Get effing real. There's nothing "odd&quo...Get effing real. There's nothing "odd" or "triple bank shot" about using higher minimum wages to slow demand for unskilled labor. Sounds pretty straightforward to me.<br /><br />The incessant whining we heard from businesses in the last decade about how they needed all these illegal immigrants to do "jobs Americans won't do" came about because they were able to create millions more $7.25/hour jobs than there were Americans to do them. If you have no legal jobs at those wages then demand would be less. It ain't rocket surgery.<br /><br />Is a higher MW the best way to reduce immigration, or the most direct way? Nope. Is it the method we should focus on right now? Nope. Could we even pass a higher minimum wage law now, with 9.1% unemployment? Probably not. Right now we're winning, the arguments against immigration are in our favor, and we need to push for policy changes directly impacting immigration.<br /><br />But when...if...the economy returns to normal, higher minimums would keep us from ever developing an illegal immigration problem again. It would also complement perfectly a reduction in welfare benefits.Captain Jack Aubreynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-434428506860677042011-10-05T06:28:57.571-07:002011-10-05T06:28:57.571-07:00@Skeptical Economist
You are correct. The Wall St...@Skeptical Economist<br /><br />You are correct. The Wall Street Journal and Chamber of Commerce would prefer increased immigration without the change in minimum wage. They would oppose the Unz plan because of the minimum wage aspect, not the immigration aspect.Default Usernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-12323655074864987132011-10-04T23:43:38.035-07:002011-10-04T23:43:38.035-07:00Nordic Insider said:
"In Scandinavia, high ...Nordic Insider said: <br /><br />"In Scandinavia, high minimum wages has increased dependency, because it is more efficient for society to keep not-so-efficient workers out of the workplace"<br /><br />Well, yes and no. Finland, Sweden and Denmark does not have a minimum wage written into law. Wages are set by collective bargaining between unions and employers' representatives. This process includes most workers and employers. <br /><br />While wages in general are fair, the minimum wage agreed upon can be very low. The lowest wage agreed upon in Finland is abt. 4,40 euro/h, for unskilled summer workers in municipal work (general maintenance, parks, handyman jobs).<br /><br />Rather, the price of labor is high due to high social security payments, benefits, taxation, and the expense and hassle of getting rid of disinterested or dishonest employees. This is money being handed from the employer to the government, insurance companies, etc. A loyal and healthy worker himself does not benefit much from the high price of labor in the Nordic countries.<br /><br />You are absolutely right about a part of the workforce being unemployable because they are less than 100% productive, though. If the Scandinavian business owner can not find just the right person for the job he'll rather have none at all. These people instead depend on substantial unemployment benefits that have become their alternative to going to work.DanJnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-21096354191657291452011-10-04T22:37:30.032-07:002011-10-04T22:37:30.032-07:00Anonymous said ... "That's a back-assward...Anonymous said ... "That's a back-asswards way of reducing immigration.<br /><br />"If you want to take Vienna, take Vienna! If you want to stop illegal immigration, stop illegal immigration! <b>Don't attempt these odd triple-bank shots which may or may not stop illegal immigration as a side effect of doing various other things.</b><br /><br />"The most likely result of raising the minimum wage is that more and more low-skilled Americans will never find work, and that more and more illegals will be hired in America."<br /><br />THAAAAAAAAAANK you!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-33371988178392594312011-10-04T22:26:52.662-07:002011-10-04T22:26:52.662-07:00@NOTA: "Yeah, drugs might be an even better e...@NOTA: "Yeah, drugs might be an even better example. We certainly put enough people in jail and spend enough money fighting the drug war that it's hard to imagine we'd be more serious about enforcing minimum wage laws than drug laws. And yet, mysteriously, drugs havent become rare...."<br /><br />True, but such "failure" isn't the point in the case of the drug war; like the War on Poverty, the War on (some) Drugs isn't intended to eradicate illegal drug use. Success in that sense would be self-defeating; the point is to grow the power of government and the careers and budgets of law enforcement bureaucrats. Therefore the War on Drugs must be perpetual and the solutions offered aren't really intended as cures. <br /><br />It would be a lot easier to enforce draconian labor laws than draconian drug laws because most employers can't hide everything they are doing from the government (unlike drug users). In other words we could solve our labor problems within the existing legal climate, whereas true drug eradication can't be solved, without resorting to extreme measures like a police state. <br /><br />I'll take the current Unz minimum wage proposal seriously when I see the government taking labor laws, immigration laws, and border enforcement seriously. Saying "assume we have tough enforcement of minimum wage laws" is like saying "assume we had real border enforcement" or "assume we made a real effort to penalize the hiring of illegal labor". We can't assume that; recent history demonstrates that we can't assume that, because TPTB don't want enforcement. <br /><br />It's just another bait-and-switch, like the 1986 Amnesty. Prove the government is serious about enforcement, and then maybe we have a valid argument. Otherwise, it's just another "assume we have a can opener" on a desert island scenario.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-33665609469952686692011-10-04T22:23:42.960-07:002011-10-04T22:23:42.960-07:00The main problem with our current laws against hir...The main problem with our current laws against hiring illegals isn't that they aren't enforced, it is that don't really ban hiring illegals. As an employer you are required to ask potential workers for proof that they can legally work in the US. In response they can present you with any of a number of documents some of which are easy to forge. Unless the document is an obvious forgery you are basically required to accept it. So complaints about enforcement are misguided the problem is the law itself. Most of the employers currently hiring illegals would stop if the law were changed to make it actually illegal (by for example requiring e-verify or some of method of reliably determining eligibility).<br /><br />I believe if this were done raising the minimum raise would also help a little by reducing the incentive to break a real law against hiring illegals. If you have to pay a wage which attracts sufficient American workers why risk hiring illegals. And why lobby for open borders. Also minimum wage laws are more self-enforcing than no hiring of illegals laws because the underpaid worker has a strong incentive to turn in his employer.<br /><br />However making it actually illegal to hire illegals is more important.James B. Shearerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13452342984383895221noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-28681081781267405012011-10-04T22:17:08.846-07:002011-10-04T22:17:08.846-07:00Eric,
"what are the odds the average guy is ...Eric,<br /><br />"what are the odds the average guy is going to support a no-tolerance legal approach to minimum wage?"<br /><br />Who knows? Easier than getting support for a no-tolerance legal approach towards employing illegals. However, the real point is to make the system self-enforcing using the existing minimum wage legal regime. One key addition would be making businesses liable for minimum wage violations of their contractors. That will really put the fear of god in them.<br /><br />Thripshaw,<br /><br />"The point about minimum wage laws (and all fair labor laws) is that they have been de facto repealed by the huge illegal alien presence."<br /><br />No lawyers willing to file wage cases in New Jersey?<br /><br />Gladys P,<br /><br />No doubt, America has plenty of other immigration problems as well. H1B abuse is rife.<br /><br />Default User,<br /><br />"The Unz proposal is more of the same Wall Street Journal/Chamber of Commerce solution, which is to increase immigration regardless of the question."<br /><br />I can't predict if the Unz approach will work or not. However, I am sure that the WSJ and the COC will bitterly oppose it.<br /><br />Paul Mendez,<br /><br />"In fact, while employers like illegals because they can pay them lower wages, few dare pay them sub-minimum wages."<br /><br />That's my perception. However, other posters disagree.<br /><br />Anonymous,<br /><br />"A better comparison is guns. Lots of people, not just criminals but ordinary people, want guns for various reasons, and will buy them on the black market if government regulations are too strict."<br /><br />The illegal gun and drug trade exists because of an abundance of willing buyers and sellers. Workers paid less than the minimum wage won't be "willing", at least for long. Once they get the idea they can obtain compensation by turning in their employer, they may well do so. Illegal gun and drug buyers don't have the same incentives.<br /><br />"There's lots of financial motivation to avoid minimum wage laws, especially when off-the-books illegals are easily available for hire."<br /><br />True. However, if the illegals have the means and desire to turn you in...<br /><br />NOTA, <br /><br />See the comments above on drugs and guns.<br /><br />Nordic insider,<br /><br />"In some areas, 15-20% of working age people receive disability payments. In other parts of the world, they would have low-paying, menial jobs, but we can't afford to pay them here to do that, so we just pay them to stay home."<br /><br />I understand your point. Perhaps in Scandinavia, more jobs would mean fewer workers on disability. However, in the U.S. a low minimum wage has led to a steady exodus of natives into the disability sinkhole while the very abundant (before the Great Recession) low wage jobs are taken by immigrants (legal and illegal).Skeptical Economisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04068911900225517137noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-54987886696766352752011-10-04T22:16:25.357-07:002011-10-04T22:16:25.357-07:00IHTG,
"What are the chances that immigrants ...IHTG,<br /><br />"What are the chances that immigrants will keep coming in even if they can't get jobs? That's how it is with the Third World cohort in Europe."<br /><br />Valid point. However, it will make legal and illegal immigration drastically less popular than they are now. A large part of the justification for the status quo is "they work, don't they". <br /><br />Anonymous,<br /><br />"http://www.financialarmageddon.com/2011/09/under-siege.html"<br /><br />Very interesting report on cartel activity.<br /><br />Polynices,<br /><br />Until the Great Recession, a low minimum wage was enabling the U.S. to create too many unskilled jobs. Immigrants rushed to take these jobs while natives left the labor force. That's a bad combination. A smaller number of unskilled jobs that natives (and legal immigrants) want is a better future for America.<br /><br />Q,<br /><br />"An illegal alien is not going to file a complaint with the government."<br /><br />Sure they will, unless they suspect someone is going to ask about their immigration status. Clearly that is not what Ron Unz has in mind. Of course, an illegal might get a coworker with valid papers to start the process.<br /><br />"Another problem is that increasing the minimum wage makes it even more desirable than it is at present for illegals to sneak into this country, and even more desirable than it is at present for employers to hire them off the books."<br /><br />Illegals are willing to work off the books for obvious reasons. However, why wouldn't they also be willing to turn in an employer that underpaid them? These aren't exactly long term jobs.<br /><br />ATBOBL,<br /><br />"Korean grocery stores in NYC got in trouble a few years ago for keeping Guatemalans in slave like conditions making $3 an hour."<br /><br />Note that they got into trouble for worker abuse and wage fraud, not hiring illegals. For better or worse, Ron Unz is correct in asserting that America is more willing to enforce worker abuse and wage laws than immigration laws.<br /><br />ZZ,<br /><br /><br />"Just in CA that many wage cases are filed by private attorneys in an average day."<br /><br />Good point.<br /><br />Anonymous,<br /><br />"With a higher minimum wage, how long would it be before we started seeing high school kids taking "internships" at McDonalds, movie theater chains, and amusement parks?"<br /><br />I agree. However, middle-class kids can afford that kind of thing with the help of their parents. Immigrants can't. The demand for unskilled immigrant labor will decline with a higher minimum wage.<br /><br />Anonymous,<br /><br />"It seems Americans are doings jobs they won't do according to the MSM"<br /><br />And lining up for them in many cases.Skeptical Economisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04068911900225517137noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-48153940441818661772011-10-04T22:08:53.688-07:002011-10-04T22:08:53.688-07:00To Steve's old friend who assures us that his ...To Steve's old friend who assures us that his reasoning "are serious arguments": <br /><br />Once again, why people who don't want to enforce immigration laws would suddenly want to enforce minimal wage laws? Why not just control borders without going through economic contortions by playing minimal wages laws? <br /><br />Also, it needs to be kept in mind that raising minimal wage will trigger a domino effect of raising all wages (can't have janitor earning the same as nurse assistant, for example) - and money don't grow on trees.<br /><br />Unz lives in his own fantasy world. In real life, not only his proposal won't work, it will be very dangerous if implemented.Nanonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-72396188386085558622011-10-04T21:31:31.032-07:002011-10-04T21:31:31.032-07:00The lower the minimum wage, the more jobs business...<i>The lower the minimum wage, the more jobs businesses can create that there aren't enough Americans willing or able to do. Where then do they go for the labor? The legal and illegal immigrant pools. Reduce the number of such jobs and you reduce the need for such labor, and therefore reduce immigration.</i> <br /><br /><br />That's a back-asswards way of reducing immigration.<br /><br />If you want to take Vienna, take Vienna! If you want to stop illegal immigration, stop illegal immigration! Don't attempt these odd triple-bank shots which may or may not stop illegal immigration as a side effect of doing various other things.<br /><br />The most likely result of raising the minimum wage is that more and more low-skilled Americans will never find work, and that more and more illegals will be hired in America.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-82765394537316314152011-10-04T21:23:53.666-07:002011-10-04T21:23:53.666-07:00"A sensible country rewards work and minimize...<i>"A sensible country rewards work and minimizes dependency. Raising the minimum wage does both."</i> <br /><br /><br />Raising the minimum wage eliminates work, which is an odd way to reward it. And by eliminating work it forces people onto welfare, which means it forces them into dependency.<br /><br /><br />There are ways to raise wages without introducing the economic distortions which come with MW laws. Curtailing immigration is one such way.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-58907457753512657532011-10-04T21:20:26.619-07:002011-10-04T21:20:26.619-07:00It is as though "diversity" means "...<i>It is as though "diversity" means "get rid of white guys". </i> <br /><br /><br />That <i>is</i> exactly what "diversity" means.<br /><br />And your problem exists all across America. Once Indians get into an IT department, they don't hire anybody else but Indians. They might as well hang a "No whites need apply" sign on the door.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-51266165677313963212011-10-04T21:15:24.720-07:002011-10-04T21:15:24.720-07:00Critics of a higher MW make a lot of good points, ...<i>Critics of a higher MW make a lot of good points, but by reducing the number of jobs created that rely on more cheap labor than America is able to naturally provide, it would slow immigration by the unskilled.</i> <br /><br /> <br /><br />A higher minimum wage will get rid of a lot of low skill jobs currently occupied by both Americans and illegals, which is one way to cut illegal immigration. But hardly a very efficient way. If we want to stop the illegal immigration of low-skilled workers, why don't we just ... stop the illegal immigration of low-skill workers? Or even better, illegal immigration period?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-24043539368874468152011-10-04T20:34:42.996-07:002011-10-04T20:34:42.996-07:00"This is the most breathtakingly stupid idea ...<b>"This is the most breathtakingly stupid idea I have ever read."</b><br /><br />So where's your breathtakingly compelling argument against it?<br /><br />A simple argument for it:<br /><br />The lower the minimum wage, the more jobs businesses can create that there aren't enough Americans willing or able to do. Where then do they go for the labor? The legal and illegal immigrant pools. Reduce the number of such jobs and you reduce the need for such labor, and therefore reduce immigration.<br /><br />I am not generally in favor of higher minimum wages, or for any minimum wage at all. Under circumstances where we weren't importing vast quantities of unskilled immigrants I would oppose it. We do not live under those circumstances, however, and have not lived under them for a very long time, and it's foolish to pretend as though we do.Captain Jack Aubreynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9430835.post-1955451770073815112011-10-04T20:30:08.179-07:002011-10-04T20:30:08.179-07:00I just hired some guys in L.A. to load a moving tr...I just hired some guys in L.A. to load a moving truck. They were referred to me by the truck rental company, a national chain. They had a stack of flyers in the office, in fact. $20/hr to make and pack cardboard boxes, and wheel them into a truck. Some furniture, too. Others wanted $25/hr (Another national truck rental chain). These are the jobs Americans won't do? I painted an appt. in 9 hours with a helper. Paint and supplies under $200. The job estimate by a Mexican superintendent? $2600. And Americans think Mexicans work cheap? What would these jobs cost in Alabama (Toughest law state on immigration). What will they charge in 6 months?Chalesz Martelnoreply@blogger.com