I frequently criticize the mainstream media for not writing about things that are boring and depressing. And yet, I found Israel's pummeling of the Gaza Strip to be boring and depressing, so I've barely mentioned it, other than suggesting some technical defensive solutions that Israel could try to counter the not-terribly-frightening threat of Gaza-launched flying pipebombs that turned out to be, according to better-informed commenters, not terribly feasible.
In contrast, I wrote much about Israel's fight with Hezbollah in 2006 because then there was a media mania for demanding that America take up the 51st State's burden and go start a war with Iran to help out Israel.
We Americans appear to have made a lot of progress since 2006 in grasping that Israel is actually a foreign country, and that Israel has its own national interests which are by no means identical with our national interests. Of course, that hardly implies that the U.S. should be active on the side of Israel's enemies, either.
I recognize that Israel faces a difficult strategic situation, and I'm not that motivated to either condemn or commend what it does, so long as it doesn't drag the U.S. along with it. Now that there is some indication that Israeli influence over the U.S. is beginning to slip (thanks due to the ugliness of the Gaza attack, the embarrassment of Bernie Madoff, but no thanks to Obama's appointments -- Obama's thinking on the Israeli Lobby's power, like his thinking on much else is so 2007), I'm not in the mood to kick Israel when it's down.
Realistically, U.S. policy will remain tilted in favor of Israel due to the power of the domestic Jewish lobby, just as U.S. policy has been tilted against Cuba due to the power of the domestic Cuban exile lobby. The important thing, more critical than our foreign policy, is that we here in America be free to publicly discuss why our foreign policy is biased toward Israel. That has been true regarding our bias against Cuba, but not, at least until very recently, regarding Israel.
I haven't seen anything since that has caused me to change my mind.
My published articles are archived at iSteve.com -- Steve Sailer
From a normative view, though, don't you see an essential similarity between Israeli and American interests in fighting radical Islamists?
ReplyDeleteGood post, Steve.
ReplyDeleteYes, things have changed since 2006. The main change is that the neo-cons have been discredited. Obama's win was a resounding defeat of the neo-con strategy that basically high jacked the GOP for the benefit of Israel.
Israel is going to have to attack Iran on its own now, and suffer severe consequenses if it continues its current strategy in the Middle East of throwing its weigh around without thinking about the consequences.
To hell with the neo-cons.
''If Hamasistan's people did not want Israel to make war on them, they shouldn't have voted for Hamas to make War on Israel. [No one cares of course or notes Hamasistan's war on Fatah Men, including impromptu executions of around 200 Fatah men in the Gaza Strip during Israel's pummeling.''
ReplyDeleteIsrael originally supported Hamas in its early years as a way of trying to weaken Fatah. Oops!
"6 million Jews were indeed exterminated in the heart of Europe, while the World sat around and did nothing." I don't know about the World, but my father risked his life to kill lots of German soldiers. Does that somehow not count?
ReplyDeleteI think the big problems come from the US being allied with both Israel and Saudi Arabia at the same time. This leaves only their mutual enemy Iran to be enemies with!
ReplyDeleteSteve, you are normally so pragmatic in your views. Why not be pragmatic here as well?
ReplyDeleteThe Jews are better than the Arabs. Having the Jews succeed in surviving in Israel is better than the alternative.
The U.S. does have huge economic interests in the Middle East. Supporting Israel is one way of supporting those economic interests.
"
ReplyDeleteMoreover, if/when Israel is wiped out, it will only encourage factions inside Muslim states (filled with polygamy-derived strife) to destroy an American City."
US support for Israel and interventionism in the Middle-East caused terrorism to become a problem for America in the first place. Putting a stop to both of these things would most likely solve the problem. Of course, the threat could also be resolved by halting Muslim immigration. Neither are possible because the Jewish lobby's tremendous influence on both foreign and domestic policy, promoting open borders for America while supporting racialist Israel. No terrorist organization has done as much damage to America as AIPAC and the ADL.
"The U.S. does have huge economic interests in the Middle East. Supporting Israel is one way of supporting those economic interests."
The Three Trillion Dollar War might well go into history as the war that dealt a death blow to both the US economy and American world hegemony. Nothing has ever been as costly as that war. Although Jewish interests were not the only ones who wanted it, they played an instrumental role in its promotion.
I don't know about the World, but my father risked his life to kill lots of German soldiers. Does that somehow not count?
ReplyDeleteGot it one dearieme. It doesnt count for anything. My Jewish girlfriend made that quite clear to me in regard to the sufferings of my grandparents in WW2.
Steve,
ReplyDelete"the not-terribly-frightening threat of Gaza-launched flying pipebombs"
I have to disagree with that characterization. The threat is not existential, nor even terribly damaging, but it is terribly frightening. It may not be rational, but we fear sharks more than the drive to the beach. Terrorists understand this, and that's why they seldom do real damage. Their intent is to instill fear.
shouting thomas said
ReplyDeleteThe Jews are better than the Arabs.
If so, they will prevail on the field of battle. If not, the survivor will sell oil to the highest bidder.
The height of chutzpah is the suggestion that Israel protects our oil interests. No, Israel or our support for it gums up our oil interests by creating instability in the region.
It is a pleasure to see Obama make the neocons gnash their teeth...but they will soon know how to play him. They are far advanced toward that goal.
That the US has become little more than Israel West in foreign policy is another sign of our nation's degeneration.
During the 300 years prior to 1946, Western Civ in general had little trouble out of Arabs. There are probably multiple reasons for the recent conflicts, including oil. But we worked out a functioning oil relationship with the Arab states.
In mentioning Gaza, it should not be forgotten that Hamas was legally elected. Hopefully Obama will sit down with Hamas, and Iran, and seek a conciliatory relationship with them to balance our propping up of Israel.
"testing99 said...
ReplyDeleteIsrael, unlike Cuba, faces a threat of extermination, after 6 million Jews were indeed exterminated in the heart of Europe, while the World sat around and did nothing.""
Don't take this in the wrong way, testing99, for I am only being entirely sincere when I say:
F**k You, A**hole, and the horse you rode in on.
Did nothing? 400,000 Americans died fighting the axis powers. My dad almost got his head blown off fighting the germans, just like dearieme's dad, and millions of other people's dads, uncles and granddads. And this is nothing?
I say again, F**k You, you little s**t. And yes, this is a personal attack, because - personally - I think you are a little turd.
In the movies and on TV dramas the space aliens arrive in Kansas or the desert south west. These fantasy aliens have two goals: to bring us a remedy for global warming and to perform anal probes.
ReplyDeleteIf real space aliens were to show up where would they want to land? Presumably at the site of the world government. And just where is that?
There are two candidate cities and both are in the United States. New York has the United Nations and Washington DC has the US government. These two sites are the de jure and the de facto centers of world government respectively.
We should be pleased that the Jews work so hard on trying to influence the US Congress. If nothing else it shows that the Jews are smart. Churchill said tha Jaw-Jaw was better than War-War. The Israelis appropriately choose to do there jawing in DC.
The Jews try to influence world policy by buying a US senator or two. The Arabs prefer to blow up restaurants. I prefer the Jewish method.
I was impressed with your self-restraint w.r.t. Gaza.
ReplyDelete''The U.S. does have huge economic interests in the Middle East. Supporting Israel is one way of supporting those economic interests.''
ReplyDeleteThose economic interests= oil. Israel has no oil.
My barber is Vietnamese and she's very good. When I was a management constant our unit's receptionist was a Cuban and she was knock out gorgeous.
ReplyDeleteBoth were refugees from foreign wars that America lost. If the Jews lose Israel you can expect a lot of Jews in America and I mean a lot.
The anti-semites who post here should consider that the way to keep Jews out of your neighborhood and out of the Halls of Congress is to help assure that they prosper in the Middle East.
Personally, I'm divided, I tend to like Jews and think they would make excellent and very talented Americans. Still its probably better that Israel continues.
The U.S. does have huge economic interests in the Middle East. Supporting Israel is one way of supporting those economic interests.
ReplyDeleteHow so? Please explain. No oil in Israel, etc.
Also, USA now has plenty mil. bases in Iraq, so what mil. benie to USA is Israel?
... Jews living in America should have thought these things over more before putting The Fresh Young Prince (TM) on the throne.
I'd like to think that you're right Steve, but a lot would still have to happen before American political views and policy regarding Israel will resemble anything that a sane nation would do. The neo-cons may have been discredited in the GOP, but it could just as easily be said that the neo-cons just discredited the GOP, and all that will happen to them is a few years of exile in the American Enterprise Institute and its lesser kin before they come back with another excellent adventure.
ReplyDeleteOf course, Israel doesn't exactly need neo-cons right now. The influence of the Israel lobby is and always has been a bipartisan affair, so the outcome of any election is meaningless there on this issue. And in the executive branch, well, look at who Obama's chief of staff is, who the Times a few days ago called the second most powerful man in the country. Does anyone honestly believe that that Rahm Emmanuel won't be putting Israel's interests on the top of Obama's agenda whenever the issue arises?
The U.S. does have huge economic interests in the Middle East. Supporting Israel is one way of supporting those economic interests.
ReplyDeleteUh, our "economic interests" in the Middle East do not require supporting Israel. Just the opposite. Our chief economic interest in the region is an uninterrupted flow of reasonably priced oil, and if that's our priority, we oughta support the Arabs, not Israel.
Testing, I don't think you get it. Some of here aren't Jewish. And we just don't care about Israel. Get it? I'm yet to here one good reason I should care, and even if I did, it'd be counterbalanced by 613 better reasons not to.
ReplyDeleteFollow?
"The height of chutzpah"
ReplyDeleteIn this particular case, I'd guess it was something else.
Albertosaurus, great going: the non sequitur to sentence ratio was off the charts!
ReplyDeleteIf Hamasistan's people did not want Israel to make war on them, they shouldn't have voted for Hamas to make War on Israel.
ReplyDeleteI'll agree to that. It needs to be noted that the entire Palestinian population is on welfare from the UN(link), which is why their numbers have gone up so much in the last 60 years.
It is boorish to say the world did nothing about the Holocaust when the Allies sent an entire army to stop the Third Reich.
Speaking of non sequiturs, Mike T.: "Some of here aren't Jewish." Gee, ya think?
ReplyDeleteAnd perhaps you'd like to refute albertosaurus's reasoned post, rather than spouting nonsense.
"Israel is a Western country, a part of the family of Western nations. Every Western nation should be supported, especially if it is over a simple matter like national defense. No Western country should ever be sold out to a non-Western power, including Israel."
ReplyDeleteThat's a very dubious thesis. How would you have classified racialist Rhodesia and Apartheid South Africa? Were they "Western"? Should the US still recognize Taiwan as the sole legitimate government of China, rather than Beijing, simply because it's "Western"? Anyway, there's no evidence that Israel's foreign policy is based around that kind of idealization of the "Western". It's ruthlessly self-interested. Israel has, for instance, sold on US weapons technology to China, which promptly tested the new weapons in a dummy attack on Taiwan. Thanks, Israel.
How much does it cost America to "support" Israel? If it just means the President saying, "Israel, we support you", once a year at some formal banquet, that'd be fine. It might upset some Arabs, but would cost virtually nothing. Instead America winds up giving huge amounts of money to Israel. The amounts per Israeli are far more than the US spends on poor Americans at home. And there's no real out-in-the-open debate in America about the size of this massive subvention.
And it begs the question. Is Israel a viable independent state? Or can it only survive if it's propped up forever by the US taxpayer? America gave huge Marshall Aid payments to European nations after World War Two. But at least there were good reasons to think that countries like France and Italy were ultimately viable nations, and that the aid could stop at some point. But maybe Israel's no more viable than South Vietnam.
"I don't know about the World, but my father risked his life to kill lots of German soldiers. Does that somehow not count?"
ReplyDeleteNo, because he was a member of the dreaded "WASPy elite" which, as testing99 will assure you, is an even greater threat to Israel.
How would you have classified racialist Rhodesia and Apartheid South Africa? Were they "Western"?
ReplyDeleteYes.
The anti-semites who post here should consider that the way to keep Jews out of your neighborhood and out of the Halls of Congress is to help assure that they prosper in the Middle East.
Anti-Semites? It would suit me just fine if the latter-day Israelites pushed all the Muhammedans east of the Jordan River, and rebuilt King Solomon's Temple exactly as described in Isaac Newton's papers:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaac_Newton%27s_occult_studies
....
T99, you voted for the O., didn't you?
And yet, I found Israel's pummeling of the Gaza Strip to be boring and depressing, so I've barely mentioned it, other than suggesting some technical defensive solutions that Israel could try to counter the not-terribly-frightening threat of Gaza-launched flying pipebombs that turned out to be, according to better-informed commenters, not terribly feasible.
ReplyDeleteAs though what's going on in Gaza actually has anything to do with the "flying pipe bombs".
which suggested that Americans should agree to Israel's fundamental interests in the same manner as America has treated the Cuban exile lobby's interests -- allowing Israel to push around the Palestinians,
Your cute little analysis here ignores the fact that we HEAVILY SUPPORT Israel at present. Why do this?
Why "allow" (i.e. heavily subsidize) Israel pushing around the Palestinians? How does the US benefit from, for example, Israel killing thousands of people in Gaza using our taxpayer dollars?
and a guarantee of refugee status for Israelis in the U.S. if the worst should somehow happen to Israel;
Again, why? Should we grant refugee status to the people of Gaza should the worst happen to them (it's already pretty bad)?
Anyone who thinks Israelis "would make great Americans" probably hasn't spent much time around Israelis.
on the other hand, America would not fight Israel's wars for it and, most importantly, Americans would be free to describe and criticize the power of the Jewish lobby.
What good is the power to criticize Israel if we're still obligated to do everything they want no matter how much it harms our own interests?!?!? This makes absolutely no sense.
Remember 9/11?
ReplyDeleteThe Muslims have made it clear that we are not their friends.
Why should we not side against them?
It is boorish to say the world did nothing about the Holocaust when the Allies sent an entire army to stop the Third Reich.
ReplyDeleteWell, yeah, but that was because the Reich attacked them, not because they wanted to stop the Holocaust. Stopping the Holocaust was only a fringe benefit. If the Reich had confined itself to killing Jews and hadn't attacked any powerful neighbors, the Allies wouldn't have come after them just to stop the Holocaust.
Both were refugees from foreign wars that America lost. If the Jews lose Israel you can expect a lot of Jews in America and I mean a lot.
If Israel loses, then it will be Israel's loss, period, not America's. America will not have lost a war and will have no reason to accept any refugees.
Remember 9/11?
ReplyDeleteThe Muslims have made it clear that we are not their friends.
Why should we not side against them?
Remember '48, '67', '73, '82, '06? I think "we" made it pretty clear we are not their friends.
I don't care at all for Muslims as co-citizens. But intelligent diplomacy would not go out of its way to work to the detriment of their countries at every opportunity.
And perhaps you'd like to refute albertosaurus's reasoned post, rather than spouting nonsense.
You don't refute non sequiturs, you just point them out.
And gosh, Testing99 was really on a tear there. Look at these gems:
After all, Israel withdrew from Gaza and got ... rocket attacks constantly escalating, border raids (Shalit is still being held, or rather his body, in violation of international law).
International Law, you say. Would you care to compare notes on violations?
Moreover, if/when Israel is wiped out, it will only encourage factions inside Muslim states (filled with polygamy-derived strife) to destroy an American City.
Polygamy-derived strife. Cute. Testing99's really one of the "HBD" crowd, you see.
Muslims only respond to Putin/Chinese like force. When Putin killed 40,000 in Grozny alone, well, it worked. No more Beslans.
Er, Beslan occurred after Chechnya.
God, talk about "spouting." Testing will clutch anything even resembling a straw, no matter how ridiculous.
Anyway, Israel is screwed. Obama's first call as President was to irrelevant Abu Mazen. He's determined to move the "peace process" along -- which is laughable because there is no "peace" nor process. Muslims want to wipe out every Jew, starting with Israel, and Israelis don't want to die.
Israel is screwed, but not because of the Arabs. Shimon Peres was right: the Israelis have lost, the Jews have won. Good luck when those orthodox nuts become the majority.
It depresses you more than the other conflicts in recent years? You need War Nerd to cheer you up about it or something?
ReplyDeleteDavid Davenport said...
ReplyDelete"How would you have classified racialist Rhodesia and Apartheid South Africa? Were they "Western"?
Yes."
Thanks David. I'm from South Africa so I appreciate that. I was sad when I realised that our support for the West was not reciprocated. We had been dreaming down there. Anyway, those countries are no longer Western, that's fro sure. But I hear no outcries about the crimes comitted down there under the black regimes. Nothing.
half sigma:
ReplyDelete"Remember 9/11?
The Muslims have made it clear that we are not their friends."
That's my impression - it was not 9/11, it was the general reaction to 9/11 throughout the Muslim world, including Europe. The dancing in the streets. The exultation. The taqiyya. Before then I genuinely had not realised that most Muslims see us as the enemy - and by us I mean the West and the entire no-Muslim world, not just the USA or the Jews.
"Half Sigma said...
ReplyDeleteRemember 9/11?
The Muslims have made it clear that we are not their friends.
Why should we not side against them?"
The fact that muslims are our enemy does not make Israel our friend. I believe that Israel should be able to defend itself, and I'm all for selling them weapons, but we shouldn't give them anything. They have their own interests - not our interests - and they have been willing to deal against us.
The Israelis made a really bad choice in real estate, and they'll have to live with it. That's THEIR problem, not mine.
Albertosaurus, great going: the non sequitur to sentence ratio was off the charts!
ReplyDeleteI'm always happy to make others happy.
If I sat down and wrote a list of all the Cold War pro-American anti-Communist dictatorships that Israel supported, it would be several pages long.
ReplyDeleteA random sample:
El Salvador, Guatemala, Nicaragua (Somoza), Chile (Pinochet), Argentina, Uruguay, Paraguay, Honduras, Haiti (Duvalier dynasty), Zaire (Mobutu), South Africa, Rhodesia, Iran (the Shah), Taiwan, South Korea, Indonesia (Suharto), the Phillipines (Marcos).
I could go on. And its not just selling weapons either. Its also training troops, sending military advisers, and so on. The generals (some of whom, ironically, were explicit Nazis and anti-semites) in Guatemala in the 80's openly declared their admiration for Israel, and Israeli advisers taught them how to conduct a "counterinsurgency" campaign against the Mayan Indians on the model of Israel's war against the Palestinians (think about this next time you hear the ADL complain about "anti-semitism" in Latin America)
Tell me, how does this jive with the idea that Tel Aviv controls U.S. foreign policy? What direct interest do the Israelis have in, say, Haiti?
GeorgesDelatour:
Israel has, for instance, sold on US weapons technology to China
They did for a while, then we told them to stop, and they obeyed.
"Israel Set to End China Arms Deal Under U.S. Pressure"
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/06/26/AR2005062600544.html
Don't be fooled. America calls the shots. Israel is just a loyal mercenary.
Testing99:
ReplyDeleteIsrael, unlike Cuba, faces a threat of extermination
Israel faces no such thing. Israel could have had peace a long time ago if it wanted it. Sadat offered a peace deal back in 1971, and Israel and the U.S. just scoffed at it. It wasn't until Egypt fought Israel to a draw in 1973 that the Israel finally agreed to a deal six years later. Israel would be a lot safer with a demilitarized Palestinian state on 1967 borders enclosed between an Israeli-Egyptian-Jordanian military alliance. But Israel (with U.S. military and diplomatic backing) has consistently chosen expansion over security. Settlement activity in the West Bank continued during the entire Oslo "peace process" in the 90's, for example.
Cuba, on the other hand, has faced an American embargo (and previously, an embargo from every Latin American nation except Mexico as well), U.S. backed terrorism against civilians (blowing up an airliner in 1973 over Venezuela, for example), assassination attempts against its leaders, CIA biological warfare such as the destruction of food crops and livestock (which is a violation of the laws of war, if anybody cares), and possibly direct biological warfare against human beings, numerous forms of economic sabotage, and multiple violations of its airspace. If Cuba was Israel, Miami would be a desert wasteland by now.
Appeal to Reason said...
ReplyDelete... dictatorships that Israel supported ...South Africa, Rhodesia..
Both countries had a democratic system for white voters. And local voting rights for blacks, i.e. in their city councils. Both the British settlers in Rhodeias and the Afrikaners were known to have been civic societies with a high degree of indivudualism, not tinpot dictator material. The reason blacks could not vote was obvious: to prevent a cesspool like Zimbabwe. And the facts have so far born them out. In that sense there is no difference with Israel.
"And it begs the question. Is Israel a viable independent state? Or can it only survive if it's propped up forever by the US taxpayer?"
ReplyDeleteWe send Israel about $500 million in economic aid per year. Considering that it has a $200 billion GDP, I think Israel could get along without that aid. We do give them about $2.5 billion in military aid per year, but they could do without that too. Back when we boycotted weapons sales to Israel (yes, we did that once), and no one would sell Israel tanks, Israel developed its own, the Merkava. Israel was building its own fighter plane twenty years ago too, but we paid them to stop, because it would mean less business for American companies.
- Fred
"I frequently criticize the mainstream media for not writing about things that are boring and depressing. And yet, I found Israel's pummeling of the Gaza Strip to be boring and depressing, so I've barely mentioned it, other than suggesting some technical defensive
ReplyDeletesolutions that Israel could try...
"...I'm not in the mood to kick Israel when it's down.
"...Americans should agree to Israel's fundamental interests in the same manner as America has treated the Cuban exile lobby's interests -- allowing Israel to push around the Palestinians"
Gee, Genocide is 'boring and depressive'
One Sentence can sum this equivocation up: FOR FEAR OF THE JEWS
One of the weirdest and scariest things in the world today is how differently the rest of the planet sees the Israel persecutors and its Jewish cheerleaders in the USA from the way America sees them,
ReplyDelete"Is permitted to see them", I should say-- by media disproportionately owned and staffed by Zionists.
But if US politicians ever shook off the tyranny of the shekel, which finances both parties in the absence of willingness on the part of ordinary voters to do so... boy, would you see all this crapola about Israel as a "western country" and the land of Pollard as our very bestest friend evaporate in a heartbeat!
If the Arabs had any sense, they'd have ploughed their oil wealth into buying newspapers and TV stations, financing "Muslim Studies" departments in colleges and lining the pockets of pet Congresscritters. But they prefer to build gold-plated palaces and throw the spare change away at Vegas.