"Minorities Hit Hardest by Foreclosures in New York"
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56 comments:
I cannot understate how totally, willfully clueless the NYT editorial board must be.
As Steve has pointed out in the past, the logic works like this: greedy banks discriminate against minorities by refusing to loan them money at similar rates, or in this case foreclosing upon them at higher rates, than whites (and Asians, apparently, since they aren't mentioned in the article) of similar incomes.
And the reason is. . .what, exactly? That the greedy banks don't want to make money? How exactly does foreclosing in a housing market in free-fall benefit the mortgage lenders?
But few in 1965 would have predicted the South Bronx devastation of 1979.
I'll wager that the 'few' who did predict such economic disaster could have also foreseen the current crisis, and for the same reasons.
And I'll further bet that none of those forecasters would ever get a job writing about economics (or anything else) at the NYT, in 1965 or anytime since.
Aren't such an omen of End Times, the new name for Slim Times?
Steve, why are you so obsessed about this foreclosure issue? Planning to write a book about it something? It seems a bit passe now that the financial crisis has metastasized everywhere.
they get what they paid for.
Some notes:
1. The floating definition of "middle class." If a household making $68K in New York City of all places is "black middle-class," then the term "middle class" is useless because it runs such an economic gamut in from blacks to whites in this country that it defies definition. $68K barely pays your rent in most NY neighborhoods after taxes, except for ghettos, which is NOT where the "middle class" lives. A single mother of 4 who works as a nursing assistant is not middle-class in the NY area.
2. I suspect (a) a lot of this "middle-class" was created by the housing boom and not vice-versa, and (b) the Times' use of the term is a conscious over-reach in order to elicit sympathy from white readers who identify themselves as middle class.
3. Mournful is an adjective used by papers exclusively for blacks. See: soulful.
4. Instead of saying that people "got" rates, we all need to say they "took" or "accepted" rates. No one is forced to sign for a rate they don't want. You can always shop around, negotiate, or walk away and keep renting.
5. Well-paid professional blacks who still took high rates due to cultural distrust of banks underscore the fallacy of "buying black" or "buying white" or whatever. File this fact for future reference.
Maybe the headline should have said "Lenders hit hardest by minorities in New York." That actually seems more accurate.
New York Times headline from 1862: "25,000 Casualties Reported at Antietam; Experts Fear African-American Unemployment Spike with Looming End of Plantation System"
Brilliant, Steve. Why we read you.
So "minorities" are "most affected," huh? So would that be like Asians and Jews?
Future NYT headline:
"Decline of White Male Influence on American Society: Women and Minorities Hit Hardest"
OT, but the soulful supermodel Iman has been sharing her opinions about the Other Supermodel:
"'Mrs Obama is not a great beauty,' the Somali-born model and wife of rocker David Bowie tells Parade magazine's Sunday issue...."
"Iman, 53, also told Parade that her rise to catwalk superstardom did not free her from racism.
"You suddenly represent a whole race, and that race goes, 'Well, that person does not represent our ideals of beauty.' For lack of a better term, it becomes what it was like during slavery,' she said."
"'One had the field [Bad Word not used on iSteve] and the house [Bad Word not used on iSteve]. There was this notion that I was chosen by white fashion editors to be better than the rest, which I am not. I did not like being thought of as the house [Bad Word not used on iSteve].'"
Of course, the only negative prejudice which Mrs. Bowie was being subjected to was coming, by her own admission, from her own people; but hey, that's "racism" for ya....
Back on-topic:
@FeministX: New York Times, why are you so obsessed about this foreclosure issue and its disproportionate effect on non-Asian minorities?Fixed that for ya, Toots.
And: reality, like cause-and-effect, is never passé. At least, not for ex-feminists like myself--it may well be different among your circle of friends.
Steve, why are you so obsessed The left has just a few words. You are "obsessed". You are "racist". You are "paranoid".
Basically, digging into anything that they don't want you to dig into is grounds for character assassination or attempted redirects. It doesn't matter! It's not important! AND you're a bad person for stating it, because it could lead to negative sentiment about minorities (indicating that it's actually pretty important after all)!
Thanks for concern trolling, "FeministX".
Steve, why are you so obsessed about this foreclosure issue?
Any psychologist could tell you, FeministX, that even if Steve was "obsessed" with the causes of the subprime crisis and its wider effects, the fact that you're clearly bothered enough by that supposed "obsession" to post about it--and give him unsolicited, implicit advice to move on from that "passe" focus--says much more about you than it does about him.
I am not a psychologist, nor do I play one on TV. But, based on my years growing up as an eldest, responsibility-taking brother to an innocent-victim, radical feminist sister who was never to blame for anything, I'd wager your thinking goes something like this:
"Racial minorities in America are consistently discriminated against, and denied their fair share of the power and wealth. And women are denied the same things: We're all part of the same oppressed group [i.e., in-group], through no fault of our own. Blacks, Hispanics, LGBTs, whenever one of us wins, we all win; when one loses, we all lose." (That, of course, neglects how homophobic blacks vote disproportionately against gay marriage, etc.; but never mind that for now.)
"Steve keeps blaming minorities for the financial crisis. He can't blame my oppressed in-group for that!"
"He needs to stop being so obsessed about the causes of the crisis: It's not the fault of the minorities [of which I am one], it's the fault of the greedy white male, heterosexual predatory lenders [which I am not]. Steve is blaming the victim--it's so passé. But what do you expect from the racist patriarchy? It's just business as usual."
Or will you try to claim, FemX, that if Steve (or any other writer) was blaming patriarchal, racist males for the meltdown, that you'd find that to be an equal "obsession," rather than lapping it up?
Planning to write a book about it [or] something?
I'm sure we'd all love to see Steve do exactly that, since he was first to figure out exactly how and why the subprime crisis happened.
Great point, clem. It reminds me of a debate I had with a couple feminists about false rape accusations.
In response to some point, I brought up the Duke Lacrosse Hoax, and received a similar reaction, i.e. that it's a dead issue.
Basically, it's cognitive dissonance at work. Discussing the Duke Lacrosse Hoax makes most feminists feel uncomfortable, so they need to invent reasons to change the subject.
Steve,
I don't think you've given sufficient emphasis to the foreclosure rate disparity. The fact that "middle class" minorities (and contrary to the New York Times I don't recall foreclosed properties in "middle class" neighborhoods immediately getting the boarded over treatment) are defaulting at a 100%-200% greater rate than whites is hugely important. Remember that Alice Mundell's study at the Boston Fed "definitely" proving discriminatory practices in lending never bothered to account for the fact that default rates for blacks and whites were identical under "discriminatory" lending practices (whereas if there were truly creditworthy black borrowers out there the black default rate should have been lower).
We have become so inured to other types of racial disparity (e.g. blacks' eight-fold higher propensity for homicide) that the enormity of this particular one has somehow escaped many of us. But the fact is this disparity exists not among the general population, but among a very select subgroup- i.e. those people financially solid enough to receive $200-$500,000 in credit. The fact that lenders erred at this level of magnitude is mind-blogging considering how slim the margins can be in finance (I bet George Soros works within at most a low 2 digit and often middle 1 digit range when betting against currencies), which is why banks and investors have to leverage themselves to such a ridiculous degree in order to make their big bucks.
I think the proper analogy for how awful a situation this truly represents is, if through tampering with the MCAT exam and board certifications, black and Latino doctors were exhibiting 3 times the mortality rate with their patients as white doctors and so dangerously cutting down on the pool of rare blood donors, who are needed to help save a different group of rare tissue donors, who are needed to...
"Any psychologist could tell you, FeministX, that even if Steve was "obsessed" with the causes of the subprime crisis and its wider effects, the fact that you're clearly bothered enough by that supposed "obsession" to post about it--and give him unsolicited, implicit advice to move on from that "passe" focus--says much more about you than it does about him."
No no. All wrong. I like this blog. But what happened to the articles that cut to the core of human nature like the "Is love colorblind" thing? I read this blog every other day in hopes of finding something interesting, but when I do its not in the 1000th incarnation of the minority-housing bubble crisis subject.
And people, don't knock it before you try it. You will like my blog. Really. It's a sort of HBD blog these days anyways. A feminist HBD blog, believe it or not.
Steve, man, you've convinced as many people as you are going to with these posts about the special treatment of NAM caused housing bubble. At this point, you just preach to the choir. I mean, if you really are going to write a book about this, I guess go on collecting more data about the same thing every single day. Otherwise, please, write something more creative. I miss it.
"Steve, why are you so obsessed about this foreclosure issue? Planning to write a book about it something? It seems a bit passe now that the financial crisis has metastasized everywhere"
FemX,
Uh, modern thinking people operate basically under the assumption that we should try to understand things. If you can understand it, you can control it. If we understand the mistakes of the mortgage failures we can avert them in the future.
Post modern thinkers just make up stuff as they go along, like the Enlightenment never happened for them.
They believe in spirit crap like the mean spirit of some ethnic group is what keeps those of another ethnic group from achieving.
"Steve, why are you so obsessed about this foreclosure issue?"
Uh ... so the country can maybe, you know, learn from our mistakes and not do this all over again in future.
I'm with clem: "reality, like cause-and-effect, is never passé...."
"I think the proper analogy for how awful a situation this truly represents is, if through tampering with the MCAT exam and board certifications, black and Latino doctors were exhibiting 3 times the mortality rate "
I would be willing to bet a few bucks that if you controlled for area of practice, you would that the mortality rate of the patients of black doctors is significantly higher than that of white doctors.
Funny to see all these people raging on FeministX.
If you've visited her site, or read her other posts here, you should know she's not some rabid liberal out to villify Steve. In fact, I actually believe that she would rather read about something other than the mortgage crisis.
Of course, that's not why she posted what she did. She just wanted to promote her blog. It's actually kind of neat - a politically incorrect, intelligence-oriented blog with a fair amount of nudie pictures.
It's not fair to criticize Steve's choice of content, though. He kind of has to take what he can get. I'm sure if he had the resources to conduct nationwide studies, he would. But he doesn't. He can only analyze data and question media generated by others. And he does an admirable job. Until the day comes when I can create a million dollar endowment for Steve's research, I'll just be happy with whatever insights he is kind enough to share.
She just wanted to promote her blog. It's actually kind of neat - a politically incorrect, intelligence-oriented blog with a fair amount of nudie pictures.Well why didn't she say so? Nice knowin' ya, Steve.
(whoosh--heads to femx's blog)
Doug
If I criticize Steve, will it bring traffic to my blog?
http://balooscartoonblog.blogspot.com/
I do have some nude cartoons on this one:
http://baloossexycartoons.blogspot.com/2009/02/first-post-assorted-cartoons.html
I turned on Fox News today and for some reason they were airing Michelle Obama's speach from somewhere. She was talking to college grads about studying hard and working hard. I almost puked. I immedately thought of Steve's article about her coping with her bad SAT and LSAT scores but still getting into Princeton and Harvard. I'll bet NONE of the grads listening to her today knew that story!
At the risk of appearing obtuse, I'd like to point out that Steve apparently put less effort into this 'obsessive' blog entry (which consists of a couple of short sentences and a link) than FemX spent complaining about his 'obsession'.
I understand her disappointment, however, when Steve spends time on an issue that doesn't interest her. Happens to all of us in the Steveosphere at one time or another, on different topics. Comes with the territory.
I would be willing to bet a few bucks that if you controlled for area of practice, you would that the mortality rate of the patients of black doctors is significantly higher than that of white doctors.
If you are willing to do the tedious research and sort the ethnicities based on pictures on the web and names, California publishes mortality rates for each surgeon who performed heart bypass surgery: years 2003-2004 and years 2005-2006
There are probably very few blacks among those surgeons, so you'd be unlikely to find anything statistically sound. But there are plenty of latinos, asians and jews to see if your AA theory holds.
To paraphrase Milton Friedman, we are are all FeministX readers now! :)
HAHA!
A "feminist" blogger flashes a bit o' tit and all the lonely betas fawn over her.
This place is too funny.
FeministX --
Steve's point is that the NYT is as usual, clueless. With boilerplate headlines to reinforce their worldview.
I do think that the "diversity subprime" crisis overstates things, first for the fact that while non-Whites DID start the defaulting dominoes, the greatest exposure and the greatest dollar-value defaults where Whites "flipping that house" or buying more house than they could afford.
The oil-shock prices of gas at $4 a gallon would have caused that crisis even if NO minorities were involved in sub-prime mortgages.
Nevertheless, Steve's point about the "sand states" having the highest level of defaults and the insanity of lending, often to illiterate migrant strawberry pickers with no discernible income stream to pay for a $600K mortgage is well taken. As illustrative of the problem even if the portrait painted does not give the whole picture.
Secondly, I think Steve unfairly discounts the EUROPEAN level of "flipping that house" or indeed, country. Hungary being the best example but Iceland also being a good one, or Ireland, and many other nations that tried either get-rich-quick national lending schemes, or flip that house mortgage frenzy (the latter mostly the UK, Spain, France, and Germany ... Italy's dysfunctional and distrusted banking structure may have sheltered them somewhat from that boom in mortgages).
Strictly speaking by dollar amounts, the total defaults in mortgages in Europe outweigh that of the US, by a substantial margin. I don't have the cite but I recall seeing it in the WSJ.
The whole problem was people bet on a bubble because sane, rational returns had been regulated out of Europe, and increasingly, America, and credit was easy ... and all it took was an oil shock and massive, extremely rapid price rises in gas and diesel to shock many people into not having enough cash to pay off their monthly vig.
Heck I recall a lecture from my Econ prof on just that mechanism during the oil shocks of the early and late 1970's. Duh.
I came across this article yesterday and after reading the first paragraph I searched for 'asian' and found none mentioned. Our NY Times time tripping writers Powell and Roberts have churned out another "beyond the demographics" 1960s Great Society white guilt piece.
...
Can you imagine San Francisco, Seattle or Los Angles NY Times Asian readers mental gymnastics while attempting to wrap their minds around this?
“This was not only a problem of regulation on the mortgage front, but also a targeted scourge on minority communities,” Huh?
...
After reading it do most frown and turn the page knowing the NY Times has made another blunder in its attempt to control the public dialog?
I vaguely remembered this old thread, but here is a perfect example which shows how dishonest FeministX is:
http://isteve.blogspot.com/2009/04/next-april-fools-day.html?showComment=1238637480000#c5360454805212359110
What about you, man?
Why not just post about how you believe your own hypothesis before anything is there to support them?
PS, I hope you will come to read my blog often-
http://feministx.blogspot.com/ So she tries it both coming and going. Steve is both told to stop digging up evidence (you are "obsessed") AND told to find more evidence for his theories!
Love it.
as Orwell might have said, it shows why good writing produces clear thinking
to put the NYT in the active voice, "Minorities default more than mainstream borrowers"
"Steve, why are you so obsessed about this foreclosure issue?"
FeministX circa 1931:
'Mr. Mencken, why are you so obsessed about the market crash? That story is soooo last year.'
I agree with the point made about the "floating" definition of middle class in America. Part of it has to do with our national culture; we'd like to believe that we're mostly just ordinary folks (or at least, present ourselves to the world that way). So, a family with two wage earners, each making over $100,000 a year calls itself middle class, and a family with one wage earner making $50,000 a year calls itself middle class, even though the first family makes about six times as much as the second. We also tend to cluster psychologically around the notion of being middle class because our basis of comparison consists mostly of our peers. If you're doing OK for your neighborhood, and your neighborhood isn't an absolute slum, then you tend to think of youreself as middle class.
Having said all of that, I have to add that only the NY Times could, with a straight face, describe as middle class a 45 year old single mother (of four kids!!!) who works as a nursing assistant, and then go on to claim (again, with a straight face) that it is shocking, or disturbing, or anything other than inevitable that she can't afford her four bedroom (!!!!) Long Island home, valued at over $200,000 dollars. Somewhere along the line somebody should have told this woman, "Honey, I don't care what class you come from, unless your last name is Vanderbilt, having four kids on your own guarantees you a life of poverty, or something damn close to it."
Jesus, we've got people like this at one end of the "middle class" spectrum, who can't for the life of them understand why they don't deserve a four bedroom house, and then, at the other end of the spectrum, we've got morons like the Times reporter in your previous post who, after deducting his alimony and child support, plus the extravagances of his second wife, wakes up in cold sweats trying to figure out how to pay for his $400,000 love nest. And in between, we've got a whole other "middle class," who drive secondhand cars and spend their Saturdays fixing up their boringly vanilla suburban ranchburgers, shaking their heads and asking themselves, "Now why, exactly, am I supposed to be bailing these idiots out?"
testing99 writes:
Steve's point is that the NYT is as usual, clueless. With boilerplate headlines to reinforce their worldview.
I think you are clueless.
The NYT has continued to be staffed by people drawn from the 2-3% of our betters.
t99,
OK, so apart from hating chicks you apparently also have a bone to pick with Europe. That's strange coming from an American, who usually discard Europe as being either Islamic or a poodle.
The exposure of Eastern Europe was overstated by a factor of 2 by US banks and officials who are keen on making Europe look worse than it is. Austria is mostly exposed to Eastern Europe since that is its previous empire. And Austria is well positioned to weather the storm. In Germany only a handful of banks that played on WS took a hit. For instance, Deutsch Bank also played heavily in the mortgage game, but in contrast to US banks such as Citi, Goldmann, Chase, BoA is getting through without government handouts. Of course the current practise of the German government to buy up toxics is stupid, but then Germans have been bludgeoned into follow the US example on everything or else. The main problem in Germany is a turndown in the global economy which is hitting their exports. Exports are the main source of income for Germany. It’s not the mortgage issue or the speculations on WS, it’s the drop in exports. Spain is a special case in that their property sector speculated on continuing EU subsidies coupled with the tourist boom. The former ended because the EU has to finance the new East-European states, and the latter because of the downturn in the global economy.
Of all European countries Britain is in worst shape. Yet they have done exactly the same thing as the US and hope to pass the costs for the bailout to continental Europe. Generally the continental banking system is much more regulated so the exposure to the WS rot is lower than in Britain or the US. Most problems in Europe either come from pols buckling under US pressure or because of a downturn in the global economy.
People are described as middle class to make their situations palatable to those who have to pay to remediate them.
Frankly, using the term "hard-working middle class" was a stroke of rhetorical brilliance by the left.
Having discerned that the average American found it annoying to subsidize high school drop-outs and welfare moms, they simply repackaged them in glossy wrap.
Of course, that's not why she posted what she did. She just wanted to promote her blog. It's actually kind of neat - a politically incorrect, intelligence-oriented blog with a fair amount of nudie pictures.
Hmm. What is it about FemX's comments here that make me doubt her political incorrectness and her intelligence orientation? There is of coure an entire branch of "feminism" which celebrates nude pictures of women, and even porn. So that part I can believe.
Testing99,
I agree with your analysis of the mortgage crisis. When you're not obsessing over your misogny, you can be very insightful.
>>Black Sea: "Now why, exactly, am I supposed to be bailing these idiots out?"
Amen to that. Anyone participating in any government-sponsored mortgage modification program ought to lose their right to vote. It shouldn't be cost-free to them, and the rest of us deserve protection against their poor choices.
Did anyone notice how t99 is making nice with FeministX? Must have enjoyed that photo with the lovely legs. Too bad she did not show her face.
Pissed Off Chinaman said...
"Testing99,
I agree with your analysis of the mortgage crisis. When you're not obsessing over your misogny, you can be very insightful."
Duh, t99 is wooing FeministX, that's why he's temporarily laid off the schicksa-bashing. I dread to see his posts once FeministX publicly dissed him.
testing99 writes:
Steve's point is that the NYT is as usual, clueless. With boilerplate headlines to reinforce their worldview.
I think you are clueless.
I agree. I think the Slim Times is much more cynical and sly than we can even imagine. Even though at face value what they say is stupid, there is a deeper intent and they have been getting away with their shit for 100 years or so and making money. That takes some doing and attests to their intelligence and savvy, albeit in a negative way.
"It's not fair to criticize Steve's choice of content, though. He kind of has to take what he can get. I'm sure if he had the resources to conduct nationwide studies, he would. But he doesn't. He can only analyze data and question media generated by others. And he does an admirable job. Until the day comes when I can create a million dollar endowment for Steve's research, I'll just be happy with whatever insights he is kind enough to share."
When you create that endowment, save a few bucks for me, please.
Otherwise, yeah, I know Steve will write what he wants. I waited patiently through day after day after day of housing meltdown posts, but I finally decided to just give him some alternative feedback on the issue which says "you can do better."
"Did anyone notice how t99 is making nice with FeministX? Must have enjoyed that photo with the lovely legs. Too bad she did not show her face."
Ha ha ha ha ha!!!
Re FeminstX
Troll, turning iSteve into Usenet
"Duh, t99 is wooing FeministX, that's why he's temporarily laid off the schicksa-bashing. I dread to see his posts once FeministX publicly dissed him."
Why would anyone try to woo someone sight unseen? Abliet FemX does have nice legs.
Only the NY Times would call Jamaica "middle class." It's a hellhole. The last white person left 30 years ago.
Only somewhat off-topic, knowing of your deep admiration for Maureen Dowd, she has been accused of plagiarizing a sentence from Josh Marshall. Then she lied about it.
I guess men are necessary for some things, like originating comments you lifted without attribution.
http://features.csmonitor.com/politics/2009/05/18/a-plagiarized-account-of-maureen-dowds-plagiarism/
"'Mr. Mencken, why are you so obsessed about the market crash? That story is soooo last year.'"
Except Mencken largely ignored the Crash and the Depression. This marked the point where his reputation declined (combined with his lack of interest in Hitler-bashing).
Regardless David,
Steve E. Sailer ('Stev-ie')
...is still America's 21st century H.L. Mencken!
Re: Concerned - "Only the NY Times would call Jamaica "middle class." It's a hellhole. The last white person left 30 years ago."
Not true. If you consider Ashkenazi Jews to be White, quite a few of them reside there in Jamaica and they manage the tourism industry (and the $) of virtually the entire island.
Jews have been in Jamaica for a long time, and actually played an integral part in bringing African slaves there and using them to grow agricultural goods: "During the 17th and 18th centuries, Jews were very involved in sugar and vanilla industries of the island. As early as 1530, the Jews had introduced sugar cultivation to the island. They were also leaders in the island’s international trade and shipping companies." - http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/vjw/jamaica.html
Pissed Off Chinaman said...
"Why would anyone try to woo someone sight unseen?"
Desperation. Duh. And T-Rex reeks of it, which is why he fails so spectacularly in his nightclub prowlings and consequently why he's so bitter. But let him catch just a whiff of punani, even if it's only from some anonymous female internet troll, and he'll be down on his hands & knees in groveling supplication faster than you can say "beta-male loser".
Umm, there's Jamaica, and then there's Jamaica. This is the other Jamaica. Not the island of Jamaica, but the Queens neighborhood of Jamaica.
Like talking about Moscow, TX and Moscow, seat of the Russian Federation.
I think he was talking about Jamaica, Queens.
I'm not a troll. I've had to prove that already-
http://feministx.blogspot.com/2009/05/in-pudding.html
T99 must have already known I was not a troll. But I think you'd be better off assessing the facts he presents and not the fact that he coincidentally posted these ideas on a thread after I posted on it.
"But let him catch just a whiff of punani, even if it's only from some anonymous female internet troll, and he'll be down on his hands & knees in groveling supplication faster than you can say "beta-male loser"."
Ha ha ha ha ha...
Nothing against you, 'T-Rex' (since your alright) but ya'll just be way too funny!
"I think you'd be better off assessing the facts he [T99] presents"
Sure. If the day ever comes when he actually presents any, we'll be happy to assess them.
Do-Me Feminist Troll said...
T99 must have already known I was not a troll.
Nah, he just forced himself to believe, against all evidence, that you were a kindred spirit, the one woman who finally understands him and won't find him repulsive. I wish you two all the best. Mazel Tov!
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