From the AP:
A decent list. Good to see a defensive player getting nominated during a year without a single overwhelming offensive player: Nebraska's Suh flung Texas's McCoy around like a rag doll in Nebraska's 13-12 loss to Texas on Saturday. I probably would have left off the two quarterbacks, Tebow and McCoy, and put in C.J. Spiller of Clemson and Golden Tate of Notre Dame, but the QBs deserved it on career achievement grounds.
When was the last time a white guy finished in the top 5 who wasn't a quarterback? Perhaps defensive lineman Steve Emtman of Washington in 1990? When was the last time a white running back was in the top 5?
Update: Commenters point to Gordon Lockbaum, who finished third in Heisman balloting in 1987 despite playing for I-AA Holy Cross. He played 60 minutes per game as a halfback and cornerback on defense.
And here's one of those convenient cheat sheets I always like so I can act like I have an intelligent opinion:
Tim Tebow and Colt McCoy are headed back to the Heisman Trophy presentation as finalists, along with running backs Mark Ingram and Toby Gerhart and defensive tackle Ndamukong Suh. The five finalists were announced Monday. The Heisman Trophy will be awarded Saturday in Manhattan.
A decent list. Good to see a defensive player getting nominated during a year without a single overwhelming offensive player: Nebraska's Suh flung Texas's McCoy around like a rag doll in Nebraska's 13-12 loss to Texas on Saturday. I probably would have left off the two quarterbacks, Tebow and McCoy, and put in C.J. Spiller of Clemson and Golden Tate of Notre Dame, but the QBs deserved it on career achievement grounds.
When was the last time a white guy finished in the top 5 who wasn't a quarterback? Perhaps defensive lineman Steve Emtman of Washington in 1990? When was the last time a white running back was in the top 5?
Update: Commenters point to Gordon Lockbaum, who finished third in Heisman balloting in 1987 despite playing for I-AA Holy Cross. He played 60 minutes per game as a halfback and cornerback on defense.
And here's one of those convenient cheat sheets I always like so I can act like I have an intelligent opinion:
Tebow is trying to become the second two-time Heisman winner. The Florida quarterback won the award for college football's top player in 2007 and finished third last season.
McCoy was the runner-up last season to Oklahoma's Sam Bradford and has led No. 2 Texas to the BCS national championship game this season.
Ingram has rushed for 1,542 yards and scored 15 touchdowns for No. 1 Alabama.
Stanford's Gerhart, meanwhile, has run for more yards (1,736) than any player in the nation.
And Nebraska's Suh had 4 1/2 sacks in an attention-grabbing performance against Texas in the Big 12 title game.
My published articles are archived at iSteve.com -- Steve Sailer
Damn that's good analysis- I would leave off Tate most likely and make Kellen Moore my only qb. I think Ingram will edge out Gerhart-really tough call. I don't have a vote btw.
ReplyDeleteSuh is best def player in a long time- since.....Sapp, Hugh Green, LT, any other suggestions?
I once thought Tebow would be decent to good NFL qb now that's doubtful.McCoy may be good though- wortha 2nd rounder. I like Jake Locker for my Redskins.
Dan in DC
I nominated Obama.
ReplyDeleteIngram had 322 recieving yards and thus 1864 all-purpose yards.
ReplyDeleteGerhart had 1885 all-purpose yards.
Their stats, when taking that into consideration, are about even.
Mark Ingram's back-up had 642 yards rushing and 125 yards recieving also, taking 126 carries and 14 receptions that Ingram might have had. Ingram averaged 6.15 yards per-carry vs. 5.6 for Gerhart.
Bama' will be playing for her 13th national title, yet has never had a Heisman winner. However to be fair, Gerhart played on a team with an inexperienced quarterback (but a very talented one), and whose opposition KNEW Gerhart was going to be the workhorse. I kind of am pulling for Gerhart believe it or not for this reason. If he'd played for Bama......there is no telling how many yards he could have had (not that Ingram isn't a fine player and will be a very nice pro).
For Dan in DC: I would not discount Tim Tebow. He has plenty of arm, is mobile, is very sturdy, is intelligent, and has tons of heart. Alabama had a 2-score lead in the third quarter and it made Florida get out of their normal routine and go all-out throwing. Florida lost 2 excellent revievers last year in the draft (Louis Murphy and Percy Harvin) and frankly just aren't as good at wideout this year as they were. This put Tebow in a pickle. Tim Tebow is 6-3 and over 240 lbs, probably runs sub 4.6, is strong as a bear and has a good arm. I think he will be a good pro football player if he wants to be. Mike Shula did not recruit Tebow so hard to go to Bama' because he wanted him to be a running QB. He thought he would be a prototypical NFL-type passer. Tebow is a class act and Im betting that 2-3 years down the line will be a good pro. Think of a bigger, stronger Steve Young.
When was the last time a white running back was in the top 5?
ReplyDeleteGordon Lockbaum in 1987.
Ingram averaged 6.15 yards per-carry vs. 5.6 for Gerhart.
Well, there you go. If you follow college football, then you know that the best football is played in the SEC. 'Bama will be playing for the conference's fourth consecutive national championship in Pasadena. Gerhart's stats would have to be significantly better than Ingram's to win.
Case Keenum had a monster year, and he's not the coach, so he shouldn't be punished for those losses since his team has no defense.
ReplyDeleteGordie Lockbaum from Holy Cross in '88?
ReplyDeleteGordie Lockbaum was 3rd. Joe Dudek was D2 but got some Heisman votes. Did Brad Muster get any? Jody would know of that I am sure.
ReplyDeleteTebow....I want to agree with you but he looked bad vs Alabama and Kiper is certain he is an H back in the pros...surprised me to hear him say that.
Tough call between Keenum and Moore.
I think I would vote for Suh or Gerhart esp since Ingram's backup is almost as good as him.
Dan in DC
Here's a great tribute to Tebow and the Gators.
ReplyDeleteThe award is for the "most outstanding player in college football", not a career achievement award or award for the MVP of the top-ranked team. I have never seen a defensive player have the kind of impact that Suh has. He is being double-teamed and schemed around and still puts up insane numbers, completely disrupting the opposing offense.
ReplyDeleteBTW...keep an eye on Rex Burkhead for Nebraska..he is a white freshman running back that is a Texas HS legend....he will be the next white rb in Heisman contention...
More people would be excited about Suh if they had seen him in other games. Hands down the best player in college football. The fact is bama and Stanford would be just as good with a handful of other rb's in the league ( including bama's best rb richardson) but there isn't another player that could make the difference Suh makes. McCoy had been sacked 4 times all season - 9 times Saturday. Suh.
ReplyDeleteWell, the Heisman voters got it wrong already. It's an utter travesty that CJ Spiller was not in the top 5! Granted, Clemson's 8-5 record didn't help matters, but this is about the best player, not the best team. There was not a more versatile and dangerous player in the country than Spiller. And don't get me started on Suh and his one big game on the 8-4 Husker team.
ReplyDeleteTom in DC
Wasn't 60-minute Lockbaum more of a flanker than a running back on offense?
ReplyDeleteDrafted by the Steelers, what was his Wonderlic score? 8X his 40 time?
http://www.stiffarmtrophy.com/
ReplyDeleteYou can see an exit poll for Heisman votes at this site. It looks like Ingram is in the lead. Voters seem to be applying the old "best player on the best team" criterion.
Look I don't want to sound uppity here, but bring Mr. Suh down South and let him bang out a SEC season. He won't be the "impact" player he is in the Big Twelve.
ReplyDeleteYou can put up all the numbers you want, you can talk about how other conferences have faired against SEC teams in bowl games - till the cows come home. Until you've seen and felt the licks laid every week in this conference, you haven't played college football. Period. Full stop.
Heck, we have high schools in Alabama who can play with a lot of D II and III schools.
Most SEC teams do not recruit (Ingram being the exception) outside of the South for a reason.
For those of us who like your culture posts better than your sports ones, how about an analysis of the Kenedy Center honors. Robert DeNiro, Mel Brooks, Bruce Springsteen, Dave Brubeck, Grace Bumbry-- they seem like a pretty worthy group to me. And reading about the various winners, I even see a connection to your inheritance and ability through families topic of interest. Dave Brubeck's sons are also top-flight jazz musicians, and one appears to be married to ur-geneticist William Bateson's granddaughter.
ReplyDeleteAfter the Texas-Nebraska game, the Texas quarterback (McKoy) is out of the running; he looked awful.
ReplyDeleteToby Gerhart has the stats, granted, but based on the last few games of the season shown on national t.v., I'd have to say he is a decidedly unexciting runner to watch. That matters a lot.
The Alabama-Florida game was decisive. Tebow has obviously lost a bit of his hell bent for leather running style since the concussion, and his team lacked a stable of first-rate running backs and receivers to make him look good.
Ingram on the other hand not only has the stats (6.5 yards per carry!) but delivered impressively against a mighty foe (#1 defense and ranked 1st in the nation)when it counted before a huge audience on national t.v.. After one particular run late in the third quarter I inadvertantly blurted out to my friend, "There goes the Heisman trophy!"
As for Ndamukong Suh, he may go number one in the draft but, still, it would be a slap-in-the face to Ingram and Gerhart if he were to win the Heisman trophy (which pictures a running back after all). Guys in the trenches have a trophy of their own, the Outland, and that is the one he ought to win.
The fact Ingram is a sophomore is the only consideration that could weigh against him -- except Tebow got it as a sophomore, and if Ingram should go pro (which he might if Alabama wins the championship) American viewers might not have another chance to see him play at the college level.
Bottom line: 4 to 1 odds Ingram will win it, with Suh as a dark horse.
And one more thing: after that miserable showing by Texas against Nebraska I'd say the BCCS final is likely to be an anti-climax. Alabama-Florida was the game of the season.
There was not a more versatile and dangerous player in the country than Spiller.
ReplyDeleteCompare Spiller's stats against South Carolina to Ingram's stats against the same South Carolina team. South Carolina is a below average SEC team but still better than any team Spiller faced in the Atlantic Coast Conference.
I don't like slamming players like Spiller and Gerhart, who are both outstanding, but if they wanted to be considered the best then they should have played in the best conference, a decision Ingram made when he decided to play at Alabama rather than in his home state of Michigan.
And one more thing: after that miserable showing by Texas against Nebraska I'd say the BCCS final is likely to be an anti-climax. Alabama-Florida was the game of the season.
ReplyDeleteGiven the way that Alabama beeyotch-slapped Florida up and down the field, I'd say that that game was itself kinda anti-climactic.
You know they are moderately serious about football in Texas too right? That the Big 12 programs find a few legitimate players among the 150,000 kids playing HS football down there? That perhaps college football is played at just a high of level in Oklahoma and Texas (and Nebraska)? Nebraska has the second-ranked scoring defense in the country. Anyone that thinks the championship game will be a cakewalk because of the Big 12 championship game is delusional.
ReplyDeleteYou could put a lot of running backs in Alabama's backfield and the results would be very similar. Ingram had some real off games (Auburn, Arkansas) too. I would like to see CJ Spiller's numbers if he played for Alabama. Look at Suh's stats. They are simply unprecedented. He had 2(!) int returns for tds last year. He had more sacks in one game than Texas had given up all year. Nebraska's D and Stanford's O would not be nearly as good without their Heisman contenders. You can't say the same for Ingram.
16 comments after two days.........NERDS NERDS NERDS NERDS NERDS NERDS!!!
ReplyDeleteDan in DC
You can put up all the numbers you want, you can talk about how other conferences have faired against SEC teams in bowl games - till the cows come home. Until you've seen and felt the licks laid every week in this conference, you haven't played college football. Period. Full stop.
ReplyDeleteAre you a fan of the University of South Carolina Gamecocks? To explain away winning only three of the last thirteen games against ACC rival Clemson, Gamecock fans tend to use the excuse that the SEC is so brutally tough that their team is beaten down by the time Clemson plays them.
By the way, South Carolina finally did beat Clemson this season.
Most SEC teams do not recruit (Ingram being the exception) outside of the South for a reason.
ReplyDeleteCould this be the reason?
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/d0/New_2000_black_percent.gif
I was listening to a Philadelphia sports talk show today and one of the hosts talked about his ballot for the Heisman (He is also a sports writer for the Inquirer). He voted for Gerhart no. 1 and Ingram no. 2.
ReplyDeleteThis made me think that Gerhart has a chance. The Southern votes will be divided between Tebow, McCoy and Ingram. Assuming Gerhart gets a majority of the western vote, he may just win.
There was not a more versatile and dangerous player in the country than Spiller.
ReplyDeleteHow can you not agree with that? Over 2500 total yards (I don't believe anyone comes close). Only player in the nation to account for a touchdown five different ways (pass, run, reception, kickoff return, punt return) this season. Joins Reggie Bush as only players in college football history with 3000 yards rushing, 1500 yards in kickoff returns, 1000 in receiving and 500 in punt returns. Had nine touchdown plays of 50 yards or more this year, the same total Tim Brown had in his entire career at Notre Dame. I could keep going. He should have been at least invited to New York.
DAJ is dead right with his Wikipedia map! The best teams in the South are what we call salt-n-peppered. Blacks in the backfield on both sides - for the unscripted closing speed. Black and white on the defensive line - still gotta be able to read the offensive set. And generally white on the offensive line - particularly if you run a spread (high school) or bastard version of it (college).
ReplyDeleteMost offensive linemen on top-level high school teams in the South are expected to know 25 plays with variations on each. The D line maybe ten. 7 or 8 different types of cover for the DB's and the same for the offensive backfield.
Are you a fan of the University of South Carolina Gamecocks?
ReplyDeleteWhat gave it away -- "faired" instead of "fared"?
To the Gamecock: I cursed your school over 100 years ago, and you still haven't shaken it off. You can't compete with your rival athletically or academically. That's right -- the state's flagship liberal-arts university is and always has been academically inferior to the A&M school established for poor yeoman farmers. One more thing: 65-38-4.
Gamecock fan? No, 'fraid not. Vandy and Auburn grad. Mea culpa maxima for the homonym misspelling. Few things peeve mid-Atlantic agriculture and mechanic graduates, turned yuppies, like non-designer soccer outfits, beat-up Volvos and blog misspellings!
ReplyDelete