The New York Times has an article about how African-Americans now make up only 34% of the population of Harlem (i.e., northern Manhattan).
In 2005, Jonathan Tilove pointed out that the number of American-born blacks in New York City has been falling since 1979. By the middle of the last decade there were 36% more black women than black men alive in New York city.
In 2005, Jonathan Tilove pointed out that the number of American-born blacks in New York City has been falling since 1979. By the middle of the last decade there were 36% more black women than black men alive in New York city.
My published articles are archived at iSteve.com -- Steve Sailer
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59 comments:
Gentric Cleansing?
Columbia University has been planning a large expansion northward into West Harlem (also referred to as "Manhattanville") for quite some time now. It's been held up by community activists/organizers and activists, though I believe it's likely to go through in the end.
Columbia's expansion, if it goes through, will intensify these trends and push more African-Americans out of Harlem.
Does anyone know where the black former residents of Harlem are getting pushed out to? Bronx? Southern Westchester County?
The last person quoted in a NY Times article always tells you who the author feels. But what this article really, really underplays is the Hispanic presence there. I live in the metro area and have seen firsthand the massive Hispanic influx that's occurred. The increased number of whites is just the story that Times readers want to read.
Right, I think the article is cheating by lumping Hispanic whites in with the NYT's non-Hispanic white subscriber base in order to make a sexier story about blacks and whites. Hispanics bore NYT readers.
One of the things that people also forget is that many people in Manhattan that are from Latin America have a huge amount of Black admixture. Some Americans would call these Latin American immigrants Black just by appearance even though their skin color is not actually Black sometimes. And remember there are also Blacks that come from Guyana, Trinidad and Tobago, Africa, Haiti, and Jamaica that replace the American Blacks in New York City even if they do not in Harlem.
One of Steve's commenters noted that Manhattan seems to be becoming a de facto gated community all the way up to the East River. I imagine the outer boroughs and upstate will end up absorbing blacks looking for more affordable rents in the future as the gentrification of Harlem continues.
BTW---We all went out and seen a Steve-reviewed movie, "Sherlock Holmes".
Did anyone else notice the cruel trick the director unleashed on the audience of having Downey whisper what the clues were that led him into whatever deduction as the camera slowly panned a previous scene highlighting the clues at that "divine proportion" right third of the screen (where he knows you attention settles first), only to slam you in the face with loud music and a grotesque image shortly thereafter (like maggots crawling out of someone's mouth). It was like saying "come here" in a soft voice, only to yell in someone's ear when they offered it to you.
There was something ugly about that movie, but given that Mr. Ex-Madonna directed it, I should expect that we were in for an ugly-fetishist anyway.
**I bet several people think about Lyndon LaRouche's theories when watching the last 20 minutes of that movie for some reason.
"Hispanics bore NYT readers."
That's funny considering one of the only reasons the NY Times is still around is because of Mexican Carlos Slim's $250MM loan to the paper.
I love this quote from Mr. Dodson concerning the demographic change in Harlem in regards to the declining black population:
“The question of whether it’s a good thing or not,” he added. “I honestly can’t make that judgment yet.”
I wonder if that would have been his answer to the question of what he thinks about Europeans becoming a minority in America?
I wonder if that would have been his answer to the question of what he thinks about the Hispanization of America?
taking it ALL the way back: harlem is a dutch word, and was where dutch immigrants lived in new york.
that's such a huge swing, from a small netherlands, to a small south africa.
harlem is probably similar to a place like compton, which had a totally different image 50 years ago. there is a place in michigan, hamtramck, which is named after a french guy, and is where polish immigrants used to live. today, it is almost completely muslim, and is one of the places where hostile muslims come from in the detroit area.
i wonder if in 20 years, enough domestic terrorists will have come from places like hamtramck, that all association with poland will have been erased, and completely replaced with negative images of angry muslim "americans".
OT, but here's a post critiquing Steve's view of the "minority mortgage meltdown":
How gullible is Steve Sailer?
Hispanics bore NYT readers.
And if what we understand about Hispanic literacy and political (dis)engagement is correct, the NYT most assuredly bores them.
As a native New Yorker, I suspect that some of the blacks getting pushed out of Harlem are moving to East New York(a large black ghetto area in Brooklyn) and possibly Newark in New Jersey.
One of the reasons I suspect a migration to East New York is that unlike the city as a whole and most neighborhoods, the murder/violent crime rate in East New York went up in 2009 compared to 2008. Although I almost never set foot in East New York, based on what I hear about it, besides reading the news, is that the area is getting worse. It doesn't help that it is on the far side of Brooklyn(the western part of Brooklyn is gentrifying due to its close proximity to Manhattan, while the eastern side where East New York is located is getting worse), far from Manhattan, which keeps rents low and few developers interested in gentrifying the area.
As Manhattan and large parts of Brooklyn(maybe even areas of the Bronx) continue to gentrify, besides East New York, it's possible the ghetto areas of the south Bronx might get worse as the blacks from northern Manhattan move there, as well as Mount Vernon, the predominantly black suburb just north of the Bronx. Although much of Mount Vernon is middle class, some areas are nasty and getting worse. It already has all the Martin Luther King, Malcom X and Frederick Douglas boulevards, streets and avenues.
Hempstead in Long Island may become the Hispanic(mulatto/mestizo) ghetto, based on what's going on over there.
The population of Argentina is 86% white. Population growth is less than 1% annually, the lowest in Latin America, and immigration rates are extremely low, too, much lower than 1%. Now we know where the Boys from Brazil retired. Probably I will, too -- if I can blend in.
At last I've found a good reason to learn Spanish!
So the rich people live on Manhattan, and the poor people live in the outer boroughs. It sounds like Manhattan pays taxes, and the rest of the city spends it.
It sounds like Manhattan should break away from the rest of NYC.
taking it ALL the way back: harlem is a dutch word, and was where dutch immigrants lived in new york.
umm...wouldn't taking it "ALL the way back" mean going back to the Manhattan Indians?
The population of Argentina is 86% white. Population growth is less than 1% annually, the lowest in Latin America, and immigration rates are extremely low, too, much lower than 1%. Now we know where the Boys from Brazil retired. Probably I will, too -- if I can blend in.
Isn't Uruguay even "whiter"?
There is a belt of satellite cites and far exurbs of NY around 50 to 150 miles outside of Manhattan where many of the Black/Puerto Rican/Dominican refugees from gentrification and newer immigration have settled. We're talking the Poconos in PA, the Hudson Valley in NY, all the cites in CT and several cites in western MA. The actual suburbs of NYC are very expensive for these people to relocate to. Newark generates it's own ghetto diaspora throughout NJ. Remember that although Newark only has something like 300,000 people in its city limits, there is an urban agglomeration in Northern NJ that is effectively a city of over 5 million. NJ receives massive primary immigration, it doesn't depend on spillover from NYC for it's "diversity." Some immigrants, like Brazilians and Filipinos, are more prevalent on the Jersey side of the Hudson.
Steve Sailer said: "Right, I think the article is cheating by lumping Hispanic whites in with the NYT's non-Hispanic white subscriber base in order to make a sexier story about blacks and whites. Hispanics bore NYT readers."
Yes, I suspect the NYT lumps Hispanic whites in with the NYT's non-Hispanic white subscriber base any time a larger number of whites better fits their narrative of white guilt.
By the same token, Hispanics bore NYT readers because the left exempts Hispanics from that white guilt narrative. An influx of Hispanics into Harlem (or anywhere else) is just a story of hard-working people trying to find affordable housing. An influx of whites into Harlem is the story of the displacement of blacks from the area that they made into an historically rich and vibrant community.
According to the latest genetic studies, over half Argentina's whites have about a tincture or more of Amerindian ancestry - http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2009/08/amerindian-mtdna-in-argentinean.html
It's possible Uruguay is more white, but haven't seen thorough genetic studies of its predominantly white population. Costa Rica is also very white, and also has no military.
Everyone in Argentina identifies as white but nobody talks about their full ancestry tree.
I'm white, and lived in west Harlem for four years. That area is run by the Dominicans, they run a tight ship, and don't make the living easy for young Blacks there. Numerous times I'd hear yelling, look out my window, and seeing around 50 Dominicans chasing a young black man down the middle of Broadway. The west side of Harlem is primarily Dominican, and relatively safe. The east side is black, and a battle zone. I suspect the Dominicans are slowly spreading eastward, and making life hell for blacks. They make no bones about their poor regard for blacks, and are extremely well organized. If the, what I would call, "block organizers" of a primarily Dominican clan decide they don't want blacks on any block, they could make it happen, and do. I've seen them attack blacks repeatedly when I lived there.
It's funny. If whites had been pulling what the Dominicans pulled, and are pulling against blacks, we'd have had the National Guard patrolling the streets. The Dominicans, for a number of reasons, never got any bad publicity.
When I first moved in, the local boys wouldn't talk to me. Then after a few days, they got extremely friendly, greeting me happily as I arrived home from work, passing their stoop. Offering me free beer, coke, and hookers. I declined the coke and hookers, btw. After a while they informed me that they did a background check on me, and knew everything about me. And.... they did. They knew where I worked, my prior residence, going back years. They actually paid a detective to do a background check! They thought I was a policeman, since no white guy ever moved into their building before. Once they knew I wasn't, they thought I was the greatest guy ever.
Once they asked if I was ever scared walking in the neighborhood late at night. I said sometimes. They said "well don't be. From 134th street, to 145th street, we run things, everybody knows about you, and if you have any problems with anyone, just yell, everybody on the corners will come running to help you, and they all have guns. We run everything here."
I have a ton of stories about the Dominicans, and the hilarious, as well as brutal things they'd do. Considering where they came from, and what they did with Harlem, I was kind of impressed.
It's like a huge mafia family, but more conservative, and really well run, and they take pride in it being well run.
While they could be ruthless, they had a very strong code of ethics that they all generally stuck to with amazing fidelity.
They're so well organized, when they decide to take a block, blacks generally gotta go. That's all there is to it.
I suppose the NYT didn't report it that way because they're really clueless about what goes on in that area. It's like they don't want to know, or it's beneath them.
When I was there, all kinds of hell would break loose, and rarely made the papers.
I remember a poor black kid, who couldn't pay his coke bill, was forced to strip naked in riverside park, and the Dominicans handcuffed to a tree. He was out there for an hour before the police showed up. Actually, it happened more than once.
Never made the papers.
Good times.
"I'm white, and lived in west Harlem for four years. That area is run by the Dominicans, they run a tight ship, and don't make the living easy for young Blacks there."
I thought Dominicans were black (ie Sammy Sosa)?
A similar thing is going on in Chicago with blacks being pushed out of desirable areas in the city.
"I thought Dominicans were black (ie Sammy Sosa)?"
Yep, Dominicans are black, and most of the ones in New York are Americanized and indistinguishable from normal Southern blacks in any way.
It sounds like Manhattan pays taxes, and the rest of the city spends it.
It sounds like Manhattan should break away from the rest of NYC.
Ha ha.
Manhattan is the most left-wing part of a left-wing city. NYC tax rates are high because the rich liberals in Manhattan want them to be.
Staten Island keeps muttering about breaking away from the city, but NYC politics make it just about impossible. It would probably be a good thng for all concerned if the five buroughs split apart, but the political class likes ruling over a big city.
Isn't Uruguay even "whiter"?
PJ O'Rourke visited Uruguay once, and was very impressed. A bit like America before the fifties is how it sounded.
Many people leaving harlem move the southeast, where they usually have relatives, the weather is better, crime is lower, and it is much cheaper to live.
The ones who sell their real estate before leaving make enough money to retire early.
I thought Dominicans were black (ie Sammy Sosa)?
Dominicans are mulattoes who for historical reasons choose to identify with the European part of their ancestry. A brutal occupation by Haiti in the 1800's might have something to do with that. Many Dominicans would deny that they have any African ancestry at all, though it is obvious to Americans that they do. As far as I know, no genetic studies have been done, but judging by appearances I would put their African ancestry at about 25%--maybe a little bit higher.
> A similar thing is going on in Chicago with blacks being pushed out of desirable areas in the city. <
Also going on in Chicago: "Chicago police may ditch entrance exam to boost minority hiring". That's ditch entirely. No exam. At all. Only city in America without one. Coming soon.
A similar thing is going on in Chicago with blacks being pushed out of desirable areas in the city.
I wonder how Barry Soetoro and Michelle LaVaughn Robinson feel about this?
By the way, have you ever seen William Ayers's office door at UIC?
This is why Blacks have more to lose from illegal immigration than anyone. I've always seen illegal immigration as the SWPL way to keep Blacks under control - just drown them in a sea of hispanics. It may not be a concious conspiracy - but most employers would rather have latinos working low wage jobs than blacks, most slum lords would rather have hispanic tenants, so there is real pressure in the business community to keep letting in hispanics. Most elites don't really know much about hispanics, they assume that if Italians assimilated than Mexicans and Guatamelans can too.
I thought Dominicans were black (ie Sammy Sosa)?
The Dominicans are basically black, and the average American would probably have trouble distinguishing between Dominicans and regular African-Americans.
But there are racial differences (mostly due to Indian and slight Euro admixture) coupled with various cultural signifiers that make it pretty easy for knowledgeable observers to pick up and be able to distinguish between Dominicans and American blacks.
Also there are ethnic and cultural differences, and the two groups identify themselves as different units.
Same goes for the Puerto Ricans in NY. The Puerto Ricans tend to be lighter than Dominicans and blacks (more Indo & Euro admixture). The 3 groups do overlap to some degree, of course, especially due to the urban hip-hop culture many of them gravitate towards. The Puerto Ricans often literally wear their identities on their sleeves by putting the Puerto Rican flag on everything - their clothes, caps, sneakers, cars, etc.
The point about the low-grade ethnic conflict and jockeying in Harlem is correct. I remember in college I toured Harlem with a Puerto Rican guy in his 30s who grew up in Harlem. He would point out somewhat bitterly how the Dominicans would muscle into neighborhoods and take the "best" apartments. I had trouble understanding this though because they all looked like slums to me.
"umm...wouldn't taking it "ALL the way back" mean going back to the Manhattan Indians?"
i meant "take" to denote moving forwards or backwards in time, not to imply changing of possession. as in, let's take the story even further backwards in time, to when this area was first called harlem, and had zero association with africans.
not, let's transfer control of the land to it's first inhabitants. american indians clearly did not call this place harlem. it's a dutch word, the point of my original post. this place has been associated with black americans long enough TODAY that people are generally surprised that the word harlem doesn't actually mean "Place where millions of blacks have always lived in New York City". and in the future, harlem might lose this identity.
same exact story with compton. today it means "Place where gangster rap was born, very black, very violent part of Los Angeles." but that's not what compton meant to people in 1950, and by 2050, compton will have lost this identity, and will have become just another mexican dump. a few very old people will recall when compton was "the epicenter of an american cultural movement", the way a few very old people today can talk about old jazz neighborhoods which are now just third world immigrant dumps.
similar process in a place like asbury park. detroit, of course, is the ultimate example of total change of character by change of people. detroit used to be a huge, bustling, actually vibrant, not fake vibrant, american city.
Your Jonathan Tilove link is missing the 'l' in "html".
An interesting tidbit: my father, who grew up in Bridgeport, was telling me the other day that when he was 12 years old (in about 1947), his parents let him and his friends ride the commuter train down to NYC, where they would get off at 125th Street and walk to Yankee Stadium for a ball game. The black population share at that time was something like 90%. I guess in those days of segregation and militaristic police tactics, a few white boys were perfectly safe walking through a black neighborhood.
But of course, as we all know from watching "Mad Men", Things Are Much Better Now...
Dominicans have a track record of conflict with blacks... they have a chronic problem with illegal immigration from Haiti.
I wrote the earlier business about a white guy living in Harlem.
You can say Dominicans are essentially black all you want, but if you say that to a Dominican, you're likely to get kicked in the nuts. They don't consider themselves black, they are very status conscious, and look down on blacks and puerto ricans. Blacks, to them, are beneath serious consideration. Usually when they speak of blacks, it's a story about unintended comic results. Puerto Ricans they speak of like one would speak of a dumb brother.
There's not that much of a problem with illegal immigration from Haiti to the Dominican Republic, simply because their policy of black immigrants is highly prejudicial. They allow blacks to cross the border for about 100 yards during the day, to sell whatever goods they have, but they better be back across the border by sundown, or police beatings will ensue, before slinging them back to Haiti. Border enforcement and deportation back to Haiti is serious business for the dominicans. I suspect the overall plan is to eventually eradicate the black lineage out of dominican nationals, much like the Mexicans have done.
A dominican girl with straight hair, or a white girl, is the considered goal of all the dominican men I ever knew.
How do I know all this? Because when I lived in Harlem, the dominicans would bend my ear on the subject regularly. I've never seen a minority group with such a strong sense of who they were, what they were doing, and where they were going, even though a lot of their activities were illegal.
I guess that's why they are able to "muscle" blacks and puerto ricans out of neighborhoods when they make up their mind to do so.
The only group in their ballpark would be hardcore mafia. Dominican "organizations" consider them to be the only competition worth considering. Every other group in their way was to be eliminated while whistling a happy tune. At least back in my day amongst them in the early '90's.
-Harlem Boy
Gaurav Ahuja said...
" And remember there are also Blacks that come from Guyana, Trinidad and Tobago, Africa, Haiti, and Jamaica that replace the American Blacks in New York City even if they do not in Harlem."
I think you're confused. Harlem is in New York City proper, as it's on Manhattan Island. Black immigrants from the countries mentioned are predominantly NOT going to be living in Manhattan, since the average rents there are 2K a month at least. They will be living on the outskirts of one of the boroughs.
And, not coincidentally, the latest on New York City crime statistics:
"The city finished the year with the fewest murders since the NYPD started keeping track nearly 50 years ago.
There were 466 slayings in 2009, down from 523 in 2008 and below the previous record low of 496 in 2007, according to records through December.
...
Overall, crime in the city dropped 11% last year."
The population replacement that is occuring in northeastern big cities, however, is not paralleled in the rest of the country. Then again, I don't know why Manhattanites should care what the consequences are outside of NYC.
"I thought Dominicans were black (ie Sammy Sosa)?"
Yep, Dominicans are black, and most of the ones in New York are Americanized and indistinguishable from normal Southern blacks in any way."
That's simply not true. I met NO "americanized" Dominicans, and they are easily distinguishable from Southern blacks. Dominicans are essentially loyal to the Dominican Republic first. It's their pride and joy, and they look forward to going back with pockets full of money.
They are "Americanized" like an executive from Boeing working a satellite office in Russia are "Russian."
-Harlem Boy
The Dominican Republic is a remarkably well-run and livable country despite being so... well, African. It's worth looking into that, Steve.
My impression is that Dominicans tend to look more like Alex Rodriguez than Sammy Sosa. Most Dominican ballplayers are from the sugar-growing Eastern end of the island.
"When I was there, all kinds of hell would break loose, and rarely made the papers.
I remember a poor black kid, who couldn't pay his coke bill, was forced to strip naked in riverside park, and the Dominicans handcuffed to a tree"
That's a nice piece of fiction you made up there. Guys who get stripped naked are usually Dominican coke dealers being robbed by black stickup kids.
Anyone who's ever been to Manhattan would know that most blacks live in west and central Harlem, whereas east Harlem is mostly Hispanic. Some ethnic tension exists between the two groups(which I think is a result of their homegrown issues with skin color, hair etc.) but physical confrontations aren't as rampant as you'd like us to believe.
In some cases it's not even possible to distinguish blacks from Dominicans and vice versa. So I think the part about blacks being physically "ran out" of Harlem by some mythical Dominican Mafia is a figment of your great white imagination.
Moving on, I'll say that I wish the New York Times reporters were more honest in their reporting of this situation. Indeed, Harlem is becoming less black but it's not soley because of rich white people buying up property. Quite a few upper middle class blacks are moving their as well and driving out poor blacks, while the influx of Hispanics continues to change the racial/ethnic demographics of that neighborhood.
A lot of real estate investors have actually lost money in Harlem due to the recession and the growing crime rate. There are definitely more white yuppies there now than in the early 90s but that's because they can't afford to live on the Upper East Side, Lower West Side and other traditionally yuppie areas of Manhattan.
-That's funny considering one of the only reasons the NY Times is still around is because of Mexican Carlos Slim's $250MM loan to the paper.-
He's Lebanese. Dummy.
It sounds like Manhattan should break away from the rest of NYC.
Upstate NY should break away from NYC.
As I said, altogether a nice country with moderate crime and a friendly population.
There's another interesting point... the low crime factor. I imagine Dominican areas have much lower crime rates than black areas because of the snobbery factor; Dominicans raise their kids to not act like "those blacks" (or Haitians), much as poor whites in the South or Eastern Europe (who sneer at gypsies and Muslims) do. This may be contrasted with, say, poor whites in England and Puerto Ricans, where a readily identifiable group to sneer at has not historically been available.
"That's a nice piece of fiction you made up there..."
I was amused by that myself. C'mon buddy, are you so freaked by this "diminishing whites" stuff, that you're fantasizing about half-blacks saving you from blacks.
Dominicans and Puerto Ricans are among the poorest, most downwardly mobile, and least successful residents of NYC. Relative to them, African immigrants and "Jewmaican" blacks are more successful. Even African-Americans are a little better off.
Latin blacks seem to be like African-Americans in many respects and the youth are big fans of the hip hop culture, but they s;dp tend to be influenced by the lethargic and ambitious culture of Latin America. Whether they be black Dominicians, Mexican meztizos, or white Argentines, Latinos are chronic underachievers.
From my personal experience, blacks from Africa are quite a bit more industrious and education oriented than their American and Latin brethren. Jamaicans are also supposed to be pretty hardworking and achievement oriented too. In the UK, where most blacks are from Jamaica or Africa, the black-white academic and economic gap are much smaller. For example, blacks are more likely to attend college than whites in the UK.
Culture matters, a lot.
Sorry it it upsets you, Marlo, but them's the facts. I lived there for years. Worked a corporate job in Manhattan. When I came home, I was in the undeclared annex of the Dominican Republic. I was there during the Harlem riots of 1992. Google it.
I would never for a moment consider living in East Harlem. Racially based attacks aplenty for a white guy in a business suit carrying a briefcase. I'm sorry to have to inform you that I personally witnessed a young black gentleman, who thought he could steal some money, and other things, in my apartment lobby, up against a wall, legs spread, while the Dominicans checked his butt crack for the stolen goods.
I'll never forget the his screaming out like a wounded animal for help, while the Dominican's laughed.
I remember the leader saying, "you can scream all you want. we all live here. Ain't nobody going to call the police."
I'm just reporting what I saw, and what I essentially lived for a time. I'm sorry if it twists your underoo's in a knot, but don't blame the messenger.
The rest of your ridiculous musings aren't even worth commenting on. I lived in West Harlem for years, and Manhattan for many more. I'm telling you, you don't know what you're talking about whatsoever.
A casual googling of "dominicans" and "washington heights" will inform any casual reader of your deep ignorance on the subject of West Harlem.
Dominicans actively drove the blacks out of West Harlem in general, and Washington Heights in particular. The amount of black crime in Washington Heights is... LOW.
This is because Dominicans run the area, plain and simple. Anyone who claims anything to the contrary, is full of crap.
-Harlem Boy
"I was amused by that myself. C'mon buddy, are you so freaked by this "diminishing whites" stuff, that you're fantasizing about half-blacks saving you from blacks."
I could care less about those issues. I'm just telling you what I directly experienced or witnessed. I could share some amazing anecdotes regarding Dominicans dealing with Blacks, but this forum doesn't allow the space I'd need, and I'm not going to cut and paste.
To summarize, Blacks always lost, Dominicans always won.
It's a completely different world up there, I'm just telling you all. I have no reason to fabricate anything. I don't have to.
One day I might share how the Dominican riots of 1992 started there. Strangely, it was barely covered in the press. They covered it like a car accident, even though Broadway, from 135th street to 170th street, was aflame with burning automobiles all night.
Geraldo Rivera actually covered it on his show at the time. The only reason he had any video to show his audience was because I shot it. Every single reporter in New York City refused to enter the area that night after a CBS news reporter got hit in the head with a brick. Luckily, I lived there, and was able to help CBS out.
And again, to you, you never lived in west harlem, you don't know what you're talking about, so...
Shut up.
-Harlem Boy
Cornicius:
"There's another interesting point... the low crime factor. I imagine Dominican areas have much lower crime rates than black areas because of the snobbery factor; Dominicans raise their kids to not act like "those blacks" (or Haitians)"
Not exactly. The Dominicans I was around committed plenty of crime. Drug dealing, and occasional shakedowns. They just planned ahead, so they rarely got caught, and in the early nineties at least, they paid off the local police regularly to be left alone. In fact, it was a "disagreement" regarding payment that led to the 1992 harlem riots. Not too long after, the precinct that covered my area got reemed by special prosecutor's for being on the take. Local Dominican leaders had something to do with that happening. I watched it all unfold, with Dominicans telling me what was going to happen before it happened. I'm telling you, they run Washington Heights. The police do what they're told. If they don't, all hell breaks lose. I watched it happen. They scared the hell out of our local police during the riots, and the police refused to enter the neighborhood until the Dominicans told them it was safe. I saw it all firsthand.
The Dominicans hold their noses around blacks simply because they believe blacks who are in the same "business" as they are happen to be stupid, unorganized and cowardly. They are objects for derisive laughter, or brutal slapstick comedy. Case closed.
I'm just telling you what they told me, and what I directly witnessed. If the Dominican gentlemen I knew were standing behind me reading this, they'd be cheering, and patting me on the back.
-Harlem Boy
"Dominicans and Puerto Ricans are among the poorest, most downwardly mobile, and least successful residents of NYC. Relative to them, African immigrants and "Jewmaican" blacks are more successful. Even African-Americans are a little better off. "
Dominicans and Puerto Ricans are completely different social animals, and shouldn't be confused with each other.
The only real similarity is they're both clannish.
Dominicans are extremely status conscious, and strive to be the top of their group, that group being all minorities.
Generally, first and second generation Dominicans can't fathom, nor do they generally aspire, to living as a real peer amongst whites. For whatever reason, they have a kind of inferiority complex on the matter. They take it as a given that they are shut out of the white world. When they are in the white world, it's as a sort of tourist.
A clan of Dominican's would refer to Puerto Ricans as "crazy. unorganized. unreliable." I'd agree with them. I was amazed at how disciplined Dominicans were, even though they were drug dealers. They always showed up to their same selling area by 12 noon, and hang out till midnight, every weekday. Some would drive in from New Jersey to work their spot. They all had wives and kids, and as far as I could tell, made money hand over fist, and were very generous with their proceeds. They'd bought out all the local businesses along Broadway, and put their parents to work in the deli's they opened. My crew rented out at least ten apartments on my block, that were vacant most of the time, which they used to move product, have parties, or meet with their girlfriends.
I don't know much about Puerto Ricans in New York, or other hispanic groups, but the Dominicans had their act, such as it was, very together, and made MUCH more money than any Jamaican, or Nigerian could ever hope to make, in general.
You might not like how they did it, but they did, and were anything but lazy. I found them to be pretty bright, and had a hardcore work ethic. Such as it was.
-Harlem Boy
"Dominicans actively drove the blacks out of West Harlem in general, and Washington Heights in particular."
Washington Heights is not in Harlem, fool :)
And it's been a predominantly Dominican area since the late 70s.
Are you thinking of Hamilton Heights? This section of Harlem, along with Sugar Hill, still has more blacks than Dominicans; These sections of Harlem have always been occupied by more middle-class blacks. But even many middle-class blacks can't afford the rising cost of living there (for reasons I already explained).
Now, if a significant number of higher income blacks are being pushed out and moving to other parts of the city, what makes you think that Dominicans (who have less political/economic clout in Harlem than blacks)aren't following suit? Again, Dominicans don't run anything of value in west Harlem. On the other hand, Jews, wealthy Wasps and some Africans/Caribbeans have more power than Dominicans.
In a previous post anynomous was quoted as saying..."Harlem is primarily Dominican, and relatively safe."...before going on to write: "I have a ton of stories about the Dominicans, and the hilarious, as well as brutal things they'd do"
So dude, which is it?
I'm starting to think that you're actually Dominican yourself, LOL. It's hard to believe that a typical white guy would have such an intense fascination with Dominicans and the alleged power and control they exert over blacks.
I literally laughed out loud while reading your comments. Please stop.
From my personal experience, blacks from Africa are quite a bit more industrious and education oriented than their American and Latin brethren. Jamaicans are also supposed to be pretty hardworking and achievement oriented too. In the UK, where most blacks are from Jamaica or Africa, the black-white academic and economic gap are much smaller. For example, blacks are more likely to attend college than whites in the UK.
For future reference, in the UK we don't use the word "college" we use "school" and then "university". Also instead of "quite a bit" a better phrase would be "damned sight" - if you have something to say you should really go for the punch.
But Harlem Boy, what do you sense is the ultimate source of their money?
It sounds to me like you're describing a zero-sum game which is ultimately fueled by White contributions to AFDC, SSDI, Section 8, etc.
Do they partake of any activities [farming, mining, manufacturing, engineering, etc] which are inherently capable of making the thing more than just a zero sum game?
Do they create anything at all, or do they merely consume?
A friend of mine in high school was, as far as I can gather, largely of Dominican ancestry. He looked kinda black, kinda not (a good bit "blacker" than Sosa). He didn't like being mistaken for black.
anonymous:
"But Harlem Boy, what do you sense is the ultimate source of their money?
It sounds to me like you're describing a zero-sum game which is ultimately fueled by White contributions to AFDC, SSDI, Section 8, etc.
Do they partake of any activities [farming, mining, manufacturing, engineering, etc] which are inherently capable of making the thing more than just a zero sum game?"
The guys I was around moved cocaine, and I assume heroin. The money they made, they invested in stores (deli's, hair salons, pizza parlors) along Broadway, run by other friends and family, to give their parents or brother-in-law something to do, while they used it to launder the drug proceeds through the business.
The legit Dominicans I knew were usually in the service industry, or working in light jobs in the corporate sector, and were usually women.
The Dominican culture isn't big on welfare, and I knew nobody who was on welfare, and those I was around, ironically, spoke disparagingly of those who were. They were there to make a lot of money, not to just survive.
-Harlem Boy
Ah, Marlo. You're back and confused as ever. Though Washington Heights was designated until fairly recently as located from 170th street or thereabouts to 135th street, your assertion is technically correct, but since I delineated the two area's (see the pullquote you provided) the only fool around here is you.
Hamilton Heights was the area I was in, and I know it upsets you, but the fact remains, Dominicans rule the area. And yes, they did run the blacks out of Washington Heights much earlier on. Thanks for the backup.
The Dominican's political power is substantial, as anyone who watched initially Dinkens get elected, and knows why, would understand. The Dominican's were a huge voting power base for him. Without Dominican leaders getting Dominicans out to vote, Dinkins would not have won. Everybody knows that. If you don't, Google it.
There's few, if any "high income blacks" in Hamilton Heights. The only reason older blacks stay in the area is they might own their townhouse and can't afford to leave. Nobody who wasn't hispanic would WANT to live in Hamilton Heights, if they didn't have to. Certainly not "rich blacks." You're just making up stories.
My statement, "Harlem is primarily Dominican, and relatively safe..." the key word would be "relatively." That is, relative to Black Harlem, which is a chaotic battle zone, which I would not be safe in, on a daily basis. As implied, the Dominicans I was around could be brutal to blacks, and rival gangs. It wasn't a daily occurrence, by any means.
As stated, I'm not Dominican, but you seem quite defensive about their attitude towards blacks.
Let me get more specific about their relationship on the street. As long as they paid for their drugs, as long as they didn't put on 'tude, or try to rob anyone, they had nothing to fear walking the streets around Dominicans, but if they DID do anything untoward, there was hell to pay, and I watched them pay it repeatedly.
Sorry if it's upsetting you, but Dominicans who work the streets are not the peers of blacks who work the streets. Dominicans win hands down, in every aspect of that "biz."
Don't lash out at the messenger.
-Harlem Boy
Just ran across a short mini-documentary by a resident Dominican in Washington Heights. I'm sure Steve will enjoy the narrator's description of what makes Washington Heights a great place to live:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iYFTxYze12A
-HB
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