Washington Post reporter Keith B. Richburg, author of Out of Africa: A Black Man Confronts Africa, writes:
For many pregnant Chinese, a U.S. passport remains a powerful lure
SHANGHAI -- What can $1,475 buy you in modern China? Not a Tiffany diamond or a mini-sedan, say Robert Zhou and Daisy Chao. But for that price, they guarantee you something more lasting, with unquestioned future benefits: an American passport and U.S. citizenship for your new baby.
USA! USA! USA!
You can tell how great something is by the number of people stuffed within its boundaries, not by how many people are lined up waiting to get in (don't even think about that). That's why Arizona State is the most prestigious university in the country: because it has 67,082 students. That makes Arizona St. much more prestigious than piddling little colleges like Harvard and Caltech. (Of course, Arizona St. has a long way to go to catch up in prestige with the Allama Iqbal Open University in Islamabad, Pakistan, enrollment three million.)
Conversely, the Augusta National Golf Club made Bill Gates wait for years to become a member despite Warren Buffett sponsoring him, so who'd want to belong to Augusta? There's probably some golf club in Calcutta that has three million members and they each get one teetime per lifetime (but you get an additional teetime per reincarnation, so you've got that going for you, which is nice), and thus it would be much better to belong to Calcutta Municipal than empty old Augusta National.
Conversely, the Augusta National Golf Club made Bill Gates wait for years to become a member despite Warren Buffett sponsoring him, so who'd want to belong to Augusta? There's probably some golf club in Calcutta that has three million members and they each get one teetime per lifetime (but you get an additional teetime per reincarnation, so you've got that going for you, which is nice), and thus it would be much better to belong to Calcutta Municipal than empty old Augusta National.
Zhou and Chao, a husband and wife from Taiwan who now live in Shanghai, run one of China's oldest and most successful consultancies helping well-heeled expectant Chinese mothers travel to the United States to give birth.
The couple's service, outlined in a PowerPoint presentation, includes connecting the expectant mothers with one of three Chinese-owned "baby care centers" in California. For the $1,475 basic fee, Zhou and Chao will arrange for a three-month stay in a center -- two months before the birth and a month after. A room with cable TV and a wireless Internet connection, plus three meals a day, starts at an additional $35 a day. The doctors and staff all speak Chinese. There are shopping and sightseeing trips.
The mothers must pay their own airfare and are responsible for getting a U.S. visa, although Zhou and Chao will help them fill out the application form.
At a time when China is prospering and the common perception of America here is of an empire in economic decline, the proliferation of U.S. baby services shows that for many Chinese, a U.S. passport nevertheless remains a powerful lure. The United States is widely seen as more of a meritocracy than China, where getting into a good university or landing a high-paying job often depends on personal connections.
"They believe that with U.S. citizenship, their children can have a more fair competitive environment," Zhou said.
Such as qualifying for minority set-asides on U.S. government contracts and for low-interest SBA minority development loans. What could be more fair and competitive than that?
Zhou and Chao insist that everything they do is legal, noting that the 14th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution, passed in 1868, says anyone born on U.S. soil has the right to citizenship.
"We don't encourage moms to break the law -- just to take advantage of it," Zhou said. "It's like jaywalking. The policeman might fine you, but it doesn't break the law." ...
U.S. officials confirm it is not a crime to travel to the United States to give birth so that the child can have U.S. citizenship. "You don't deny someone because you know they're going to the U.S. to have children," said a U.S. Embassy spokesman in Beijing, who spoke on the condition of anonymity, citing embassy rules.
The spokesman, who said expectant mothers typically claim they are going to the United States as tourists, compared the baby consultancies to services that help foreign students apply for American universities: "If you have the money, they give you the service. They tell you how to prepare your dossier."
"I'm sure people in Congress would call it a loophole," the spokesman said.
Yes, because people in Congress are constantly sounding off about legal immigration abuses. I typed into Google:
"legal immigration abuses" Congress
and got back:
Your search - "legal immigration abuses" Congress - did not match any documents.
Richburg continues:
Many anti-immigration activists in the United States agree. Some argue that the 14th Amendment -- aimed at guaranteeing citizenship rights to freed black slaves -- was never meant to provide an instant passport to the children of people who are in the country illegally or who travel there expressly to gain U.S. citizenship for their child.
Richburg is an African-American who seems to think the 14th Amendment was passed to provide justice for his ancestors, not perks for random foreigners.
The Department of Homeland Security and the State Department have no specific regulations regarding pregnant foreign visitors, which critics see as an issue....
Zhou, a former marketing director, and Chao, a former television producer in Taiwan, said they have helped between 500 and 600 mothers give birth to American babies in the five years they have been in business. They started with themselves, when Chao went to the United States to give birth to their daughter Fiona, now 4.
Now, they said, their clients include Chinese doctors, lawyers, business leaders, government officials, well-known media personalities -- most of whom do not want media attention and, Zhao said, would not agree to be interviewed.
About 40 percent of their clients come from Shanghai, 30 percent from Beijing and the rest from Guangzhou and elsewhere, including Taiwan. Some, the couple said, were giving birth to their second child to skirt China's one-child policy. Most say they do not intend to live in the United States themselves.
In other words, they do not intend to pay taxes in the United States themselves, if they can avoid it.
And all are affluent, Zhou and Chao said. Unlike the poor illegal immigrants from Central America who try to cross the border to have their babies in America, Zhou said, these Chinese parents fly in on first-class seats.
"They also do some shopping," he said, "So they are contributing to the economy."
The reasons they want American passports for their babies are varied, but most come down to two key factors -- education and setting.
"The mainland [China] moms believe the U.S. has better educational resources," Zhou said. This year, 10 million students are battling for 6.6 million spots at Chinese universities and the chance for a better life. "The competition is too fierce on the mainland," Zhou said.
So, the education is okay in China, it's the competition that's too much (i.e., a whole bunch of Chinese kids).
In their pitch to prospective clients, Zhou and Chao point out that as a U.S. citizen, a child has access to free public education from primary school through high school and that a full education in the United States can be much cheaper than at the top Chinese private schools and universities. ...
Chuo, 35, said her brother and sister both studied in the United States and "my parents paid a huge amount of money for their education" because they were foreign students. Giving her newborn American citizenship, she said, would "provide one more choice for our baby."
And one less choice for an American kid.
Another reason is to get chain migration going uphill, get the kid to sponsor the parents, and the parents sponsor the grandparents, who can be stashed into old people's public housing. I used to live next to an old folks high-rise public housing project in Chicago, which was mostly occupied by non-English speaking Asians. Considering the type-of-neighbor alternatives in Chicago public housing, it wasn't so bad, but I could never see why American taxpayers ought to pay for the lodging and medical care of old people who had never paid taxes to America.
Another reason is to get chain migration going uphill, get the kid to sponsor the parents, and the parents sponsor the grandparents, who can be stashed into old people's public housing. I used to live next to an old folks high-rise public housing project in Chicago, which was mostly occupied by non-English speaking Asians. Considering the type-of-neighbor alternatives in Chicago public housing, it wasn't so bad, but I could never see why American taxpayers ought to pay for the lodging and medical care of old people who had never paid taxes to America.
Equally important was the setting. "It's spacious and with no pollution," Christina Chuo said. "We thought it would put us in a good mood looking at the nice scenery, the hills and the water."
No kidding. Also, California has nice weather.
Chuo said she and her husband like living in Taiwan and are not interested in migrating to America, except, perhaps, when they retire. She said they got their visas by saying their purpose was tourism. But she worries it will not be so easy for others.
"I am afraid in the future, with more people going to U.S., it will be harder to get a visa," Chuo said.
I wouldn't worry about it.
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136 comments:
The number of East Asians living in America is fairly small compared to the total East Asian population worldwide. Take for instance China.
There are something like 3.6 million+ Chinese Americans. But compare that to over 1330 million Chinese living in mainland China, another 7+ million Chinese living in Hong Kong, the over 23 million Chinese living in Taiwan, and the roughly 2.8 million Chinese living in Singapore, and you begin to see that the total number of Chinese living in America is fairly small percentage wise, relative to the overall global Chinese population.
The numbers for Japan and South Korea reveal a similar scenario.
There's clearly no East Asian "invasion" in the same sense of there being say a Mexican invasion.
There are roughly something like 100k+ Chinese students who come to study in the USA each year, counting both undergraduate and graduate education. It's probably the case that the majority of overseas Chinese study in America.
http://www.forbes.com/2009/05/06/foreign-exchange-american-students-opinions-columnists-john-zogby.html
"There are 624,000 international students in the U.S. compared with 242,000 U.S. students abroad. Here is some of what we know about U.S. students in other nations:
--The top five destinations are: Britain (15%), Italy (13%), Spain (11%), France (11%) and China (5%). "
So we see that roughly 5% of the 240k total overseas American students are studying in China. That comes out to roughly 12k. This is 8 times less than the number of Chinese students studying in America. But, realize that China has 4x the population of America, so on a per capita basis there are only 2x more Chinese students studying in America than American students studying in China.
Another motivation that doesn't appear in the article but I suspect is quite strong is the desire for a safe haven if China goes haywire. If I were Chinese, I would be very proud of what the country had accomplished in the last 30 years, but the 150 or so years before that would give me pause.
Aren't we being a little overly dramatic here Steve? The article says that the business has helped 500-600 mothers over the past years. Hardly seems a like a worrying trend to me. These articles always sensationalize everything.
That's why Arizona State is the most prestigious university in the country: because it has 67,082 students.
LOL. HS went to law school there. I'd rather get my law degree from Costco.
In 2005, I independently but unsuccessfully lobbied Congress to pass a law outlawing birthright citizenship. The U.S. is one of the only, perhaps the only, developed country that used this system. The word on the Hill was that most Congressman were in favor, but political inertia was perpetually stalling serious consideration of any such legislation, despite the fact that I could show them a Korean website (it was in Korean but we had a translation) that explicitly offerred the very same service that this Chinese couple now provides.
Aside for a few like Tom Tancredo, nobody really seemed to care.
If it bothers you, there are ways to get involved through organizations like www.numbersusa.org
You can't have your cake and eat it. You can't claim to be all HBD and citizenist, and also reject affluent northeast asians. That's highly inconsistent.
yes.. there are a fair number of well heeled foreigners who can take advantage of residency requirements to get their kids admission into US universities (as a viable alternative to the highly competitive schools at home); long-term planning. yes, it is a loophole but I am not (yet) convinced it amounts to much in absolute numbers. these people also probably have residencies in other countries (like canada or australia), just in case.
I find it amazing how some non-citizens feel quite entitled to unlimited access to everything in the U.S. In graduate school a Taiwanese student expressed annoyance that a lot of U.S. government jobs are limited to citizens. A Spanish (as in Spain, as in white) student brazenly went around saying when she was applying for faculty positions she would be claiming Hispanic ethnicity because, in her short time in this country, as a white woman, in a liberal city, she had apparently felt the pain of discrimination. So she felt entitled to preference in getting a job at a U.S. university over white Americans.
Doubt the Taiwanese person or the Spaniard would be so cool with it if Americans started demanding jobs from their governments or expecting preference over the natives. But they sure damn sure expect us to give to them.
The Chinese are probably less threatening than the Egyptians, Moroccans and Saudis.
i thought the koreans pioneered this stuff decades ago. don't they fly to hawaii to give birth, then immediately fly back to south korea?
They are contributing to the economy by shopping, but who is picking up the tab for the hospital birth? What if their child is born with problems -- do they have the money or the insurance to cover that contingency?
A lot of Asians buy a house in a good school district in California, such as San Marino, and staff it with servants, or have the grandparents live there, and let little Ling Ling and Ching Ching attend the local schools, learn to swim at the local Y, etc. Later on, the kids will enroll in a state-subsidized university, because they are "just as American" as anybody else.
The Chinese like to bring their parents over as free child care, and use phony documents to make them eligible for Social Security, HUD housing vouchers, Medicaid, Medicare, Medical, and Food Stamps, etc., even though they never paid a nickel into the system.
And the whole SBA affirmative action business loan gambit is a painful joke. If the business fails, they don't have to pay the loan back. If the business is a success, they will fail to pay or underpay taxes because they "not understand English!/not understand rules!"
The Asians are a lot smarter and less violent than Mexicans, but they still come here to suckle a government tittie.
WE ARE BETTER OFF WITHOUT THEM.
Oh yeah, they commit a lot of espionage, too.
1 - When I attended Univ of North Carolina Univ 20+ years ago, Senator Jesse Helms was famous for helping mainland Chinese students stay in the US. I knew many who married & had kids with automatic American citizenship. They planned to return to China and have one more child under China's One Child Policy.
2 - Korean women give birth in the US as a future safe haven. Plus, when the kids turn 21, they can sponsor family members. Several members of the Prime Minister or President's family had US passports.
Google Korean or asian birth tourism and Korean moms want 'born in USA' babies.
Waydaminit.
I thought we were all agreed that China was the coming country and that the US was doomed, doomed, doomed. Now we find out that US citizenship is the Harvard of citizenships while Chinese citizenship has something to do with Arizona or something.
"You can't claim to be all HBD and citizenist, and also reject affluent northeast asians. That's highly inconsistent."
Why? Northeast asians are highly clannish. If you want what's good for yourself and your children, you don't want them dealing with ethnocentric competitors who demand access to your networks but don't reciprocate. The Prisoner's Dilemma strategy for this is All-D.
I would love to trade our bottom 1/3 for china's top 10%.
Hopefully Anonymous
http://www.hopeanon.typepad.com
The Chinese are probably less threatening than the Egyptians, Moroccans and Saudis.
No kidding.
In fact, there's a pretty good chance that the Chinese could be Christians [cf here and here].
If I'm gonna to be over-run by anybody, then it might as well be a bunch of Christians who look like Michelle Yeoh or Ziyi Zhang.
Life could be a LOT worse than that.
"long-term planning. yes, it is a loophole but I am not (yet) convinced it amounts to much in absolute numbers."
Have you ever heard of Mexicans?
Besides,I don't care if it's one person. They can take a hike.
"I find it amazing how some non-citizens feel quite entitled to unlimited access to everything in the U.S. In graduate school a Taiwanese student expressed annoyance that a lot of U.S. government jobs are limited to citizens. A Spanish (as in Spain, as in white) student brazenly went around saying when she was applying for faculty positions she would be claiming Hispanic ethnicity because, in her short time in this country, as a white woman, in a liberal city, she had apparently felt the pain of discrimination. So she felt entitled to preference in getting a job at a U.S. university over white Americans.
Doubt the Taiwanese person or the Spaniard would be so cool with it if Americans started demanding jobs from their governments or expecting preference over the natives. But they sure damn sure expect us to give to them"
Everybody thinks they have a right to move here I guess. They think America is like a blank slate country.
"You can't have your cake and eat it. You can't claim to be all HBD and citizenist, and also reject affluent northeast asians. That's highly inconsistent."
Why? Just because NE Asians are smart doesn't mean they have a right to come here and change our culture and take our jobs.
The Atlantic Monthly's Sept. issue is entitled "The End of White America?". These policies don't help.
I can't wait to read the depressing issue.
Anyone who has completed a graduate degree in the sciences at an American university can testify to the enormous impact of just a few thousand foreigners.
People might think that 100,000 Chinese studying at American universities is not many. I personally think it is a lot.
But viewed from the perspective of graduate schools where there are only a few thousand spots open for students altogether - the small numbers relative to our total population takes on a different look. The domination of American grad school programs by foreigners is an 'open secret'. For those who dont know, it is often the case that 50%+ of people in a Masters of Doctoral program will be foreigners. I should say more like 75%. At some schools it is 80%+.
What does that mean? Well, how prestigious are Masters and PhD degrees in the sciences? I'll let you draw the conclusions. I'm aware that some people are all in favor of fair competition, universal competition, in other words, universities do not exist to serve a nation or a people, but a people exist to contribute to a university (?). I disagree. Either way, Rome was content to let its militaries become Gothic, and I must inform the readership (some of whom no doubt already know it) that our grad schools are now 1/2 to 3/4ths Asian. The die is cast.
In their pitch to prospective clients, Zhou and Chao point out that as a U.S. citizen, a child has access to free public education from primary school through high school and that a full education in the United States can be much cheaper than at the top Chinese private schools and universities. ...
=========================
Do they plan to send 6-year-olds to the US by themselves? Actually in Vancouver I think it is quite common for Chinese parents to send teenagers to Vancouver alone to go to highschool. The kids often get messed up with drugs, etc.
"You can't claim to be all HBD and citizenist, and also reject affluent northeast asians."
Citizenism would be kind of meaningless if we just let everyone become citizens...
If I'm gonna to be over-run by anybody, then it might as well be a bunch of Christians who look like Michelle Yeoh or Ziyi Zhang.
A lot of open borders sentient really does seem to be driven by pathetic guys hoping to score with an Asian babe.
OK, so I know a lot of families who practice this kind of thing. I think it's a terrible practice and I hope that there laws will be enacted in the future to prevent this scenario from occurring. It's very common among the extremely wealthy. A few of my friends were born this way.
One major perk of being an kid American citizen in East Asia is that you will receive priority at "international schools/American schools". These schools are considered superior to local private and public schools, so naturally (even more naturally for East Asians), parents want their children to attend these schools. The international school I attended had an admissions structure something like this.
1. American citizen kid+both parents American citizens
2. American citizen kid+1 parent American citizen
3. American citizen kid
Enrollment was limited, so there was intense competition for spots. Kids from category 3 tended to be the ones whose parents abused the 14th amendment. They also tended to be extremely wealthy (these are the kinds of people who donate large sums of money to X prestigious American University for the purposes of admissions). Quite a few CEOs of large corporations in this group.
"A lot of open borders sentient really does seem to be driven by pathetic guys hoping to score with an Asian babe."
Don't forget about hot Ukrainians. And why aren't we trying harder to bring in Argentine babes?
A lot of open borders sentient really does seem to be driven by pathetic guys hoping to score with an Asian babe.
LOL. Yes, especially a lot of white guys who think or know they are on the left side of the bell curve, and I don't mean IQ wise.
"In fact, there's a pretty good chance that the Chinese could be Christians [cf here and here].
If I'm gonna to be over-run by anybody, then it might as well be a bunch of Christians who look like Michelle Yeoh or Ziyi Zhang.
Life could be a LOT worse than that."
Ugh, please. Plenty of white Christians are bat-sh!t insane; east asian Christians are even more bat-sh!t insane, and insanely clannish to boot. I've dealt with the type at major universities where they all cluster together in their various east asian Christian groups. Just because you pathetically want to score with their women doesn't mean they should be let into the country.
Someone else:
"You can't have your cake and eat it. You can't claim to be all HBD and citizenist, and also reject affluent northeast asians. That's highly inconsistent."
These words you are using - HBD and citizenist - they don't mean what you seem to think they mean. Just because someone is rich and high IQ, does not make them one of us. You: fail.
Of course, this is not the first story about this kind of thing (the LA Times ran a story about Koreans some time ago). And in general it is known that pregnant foreigners travel to the US shortly before giving birth in order to obtain US citizenship for their kid.
Nonetheless it is a disgusting phenomenon.
And you really have to ask: What kind of country lets itself be abused in this way? What kind of country gives its citizenship away so cheaply?
In 1955 my husband was born in the US, because his parents (Canadians) happened to be there at the time. (His dad was in the Canadian Air Force at the time, and was stationed at the Pentagon for awhile). They moved back to Canada when he was 6 months old. He has never had any interest in being an American citizen, but had to jump through some hoops to make sure he became a Canadian citizen and not an American (even though his parents had done some sort of "registered birth abroad" thing.) He was warned to make sure he was in Canada on his 21st birthday. At one point he was afraid he might get drafted.
For $1,475 a doubt if you can find a better bargain in the World anywhere - it's rather like selling $1000 bills for a dime, the potential leverage accruing on the that trivial entry sum is astronomical! (if nothing else, think of all the social security, health and other education benefits that are fully legally and freely entitled to every American child, what is $1,500 compared to that -and this doesn't even include the automatic 'chain migration' benefit the kid is priveleged with!, a self-multiplier , what in art or nature compares to THAT!!!!), - not even Bernie Madoff in his pomp could hold a candle to this return!
My only disbelief is that the whole third world isn't beating a path to Zhou's door, and Zhou isn't the richest man in the world.
"LOL. Yes, especially a lot of white guys who think or know they are on the left side of the bell curve, and I don't mean IQ wise."
Hey, man, you take what you can get. White girls want a lot more game.
The next time you hear someone say they advocate "comprehensive immigration reform," ask them if "comprehensive" should entail amending the Constitution to put an end to birthright citizenship and all of the resulting anchor-baby goodies.
The assumption was that you were going to be over-run by someone, and, if so, then would you rather be over-run by hoards of Moon-God-worshipping Middle Eastern cretins hell-bent on slaughtering you, or by some fine-assed Chinese Christian trim which might actually enjoy making babies with you?
Personally, I know which fate I'd choose.
Better smart Chinese with money than low IQ Mexicans without any.
The IRS has agents that travel to China. We'll get our money, don't you worry about it.
You can't have your cake and eat it. You can't claim to be all HBD and citizenist, and also reject affluent northeast asians. That's highly inconsistent.
First of all, which god mandated consistency?
Second, do you even know what HBD means? HBD means Human Biodiversity. Being HBD aware simply means you pay attention to HBD. It has no specific bearing on immigration policy.
Third, do you even know what citizenism is? It means worrying about your own citizens, not China's.
You're looking for cognitive elitism. That's IQ-supremacy whereby smart people justify anything and everything they want with their high IQs. That's down the hall.
Doubt the Taiwanese person or the Spaniard would be so cool with it if Americans started demanding jobs from their governments or expecting preference over the natives. But they sure damn sure expect us to give to them.
It's all about expectations. If you hear a girl's a complete slut, you get offended when she rejects you.
No, they don't have a right to expect us to roll over. In fact, they should expect a swift kick in the ass. But it's not as if they have no reason to think the way they do; our elite has been rolling us over for them for a long time now.
For $1,475 a doubt if you can find a better bargain in the World anywhere
Yeah, congress is a better bargain but you probably only start to really see the benefits at a higher buy-in.
(This may seem like humor, but it isn't. I think bribing congress (AKA "lobbying" and "donating") is probably the best bargain on Earth. Our entire political process can be had for a song, relatively speaking)
The question isn't about a few dozen Chinese citizens who fly into the US each year to give birth to children who will automatically be US citizens.
The real question - in the modern era, where people from the other side of the world can travel to your country, safely, in only a few hours; where tens of millions of foreigners do so legally and illegally each year - is in what kind of insane nation is this actually policy?
In ours, of course; which means this nation as a prosperous, legally constituted entity is not long for this world.
In the articles I have seen, which are inevitably against changing the birthright citizenship policy, the claim is that it would be 'too difficult' for the federal government to verify the citizenship of the 4 million or so children born in the US each year.
These claims come even as the articles and editorials frequently acknowledge that is precisely what most other countries already do. They fail to acknowledge that annually verifying the citizenship of 4 million newborns is a paltry task compared to the tasks the various governments already do, like educate 40 million children 180 days each year; like issue or renew driver's licenses (complete with ID verification) to tens of millions of driver's each year; like manage bureaucracies with tens of millions of employees each year; like somehow manage a transportation system that enables hundreds of millions of Americans to travel to and from places of work, school, and recreation each and every single weekday. Then of course there's issuance of passports, welfare benefits, social security benefits, unemployment benefits, VA benefits, and Lord only knows how much else.
The ancients would never have invented a god that is capable of all the tasks we - liberals AND conservatives - expect our government to perform each year.
Yet somehow, the one thing - the one, single thing that our universally competent government is incapable of doing is protecting our borders, including verifying the right of a few million newborn children to be issued US citizenship.
To the posters here who aren't worried or concerned: where's your tipping point, when every other face you see is asian? Or maybe there's no tipping point for those who have transcended that dirty evil racism and are all clean and one worldy.
"And one less choice for an American kid."
No. By definition of the constitution, they ARE American. If you don't like it, then go ahead and redefine what it means to be American in the document so many Americans believe defines the basis for society. Good luck with that. Alternatively, you are free to leave this nation whenever you want and go back to where you came from as I have been even though I was born here and both my parents were citizens.
Use this demand to your advantage. If you want the genetic quality of the US to improve, then invite more of these high society birthright moms but charge them a tax or something. They're rich, so they can afford it. Try to better assimilate the kids if they come to the US and go to college, so that way they won't disrupt your oh so precious "culture."
These kids are going to be disproportionately smart and rich. If they come to the US, they'll be likely to contribute in a positive manner, both economically and genetically. Go find something more pressing to worry about like the not so smart or rich birthright moms. You're worried about this? You should be celebrating.
Citizenism means that you treat citizens as individuals and either have preferential concern for their welfare over non-citizen individuals or else with only concern for their welfare and no concern for any non-citizen individuals (the extreme position). Also implied are no racial subgroup preferences outside or within that and no treating groups of citizens as worth more than the sum of their parts, but it's not like "compatabilist" positions where these things are present but subordinated to citzenism are impossible.
It doesn't mandate any particular criteria about who you believe ought to be able to become a citizen or how they ought to, although presumably it should be in the interests of citizens at large, if your defining motivation and standard for politics is concern for their welfare.
But what's implied (on who is a citizen) is that the tradition, status quo and zeitgeist of who is and isn't a citizen is accepted and no further attempt to articulate it is made, but that it isn't subject to arbitrary change (people already citizens can't be unmade citizen).
This distinguishes it from propositionism which is an outward and non-citizen focused ideal whereby anyone who accepts a set of formal propositions is a citizen, regardless of the desires of the preexisting citizens or their acceptance that this person should be a citizen.
Our state Washington wont give you free med as a illegal unless you intend to stay yup they reward you for staying illegally
As a regular reader of the post I am impressed that a reporter is writing about the flaws in our immigration policies without mentioning the need for a "pathway to citizenship" for illegals or about the "benefits" of diversity and an editor decided to put it on the front page. This is very different from what they usually publish about immigration.
Good Lord!! Only in America can this happen. Getting a visa requires going to the American Embassy so maybe that is where the problem is.
Zhou and Chao insist that everything they do is legal, noting that the 14th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution, passed in 1868, says anyone born on U.S. soil has the right to citizenship.
It says nothing of the sort. It says that everyone who had been born in the US (if subject to the jurisidiction thereof) as of the effective date of the amendment thereby became a citizen. It says nothing about the future. Unlike just about ever other clause in the amendment, the statement regarding citizenship does not use the auxiliary verb "shall" to indicate a continuing rule,
"What kind of country lets itself be abused in this way?" Exactly. This type of thing highlights our impotence and collective insanity.
We are incapable of even closing a loophole like this, and it would be easy. It would incidentally give us a chance to check the constitutional issue with a rational Supreme Court.
"Plenty of white Christians are bat-sh!t insane; east asian Christians are even more bat-sh!t insane..."
I mentioned this before on this blog, but thank you for reiterating it.
Frankly, if you folks are worried about immigration and being over run, birth tourism is a minor issue. It costs a lot of money to fly here and have kids, only a select elite minority of foreigners can even think of doing this. Being a "chinaman" some of you might think I have ulterior motives for saying this, but I can assure you that has nothing to do with it.
In any case, our policy of issuing citizenship to anyone who is born within American territory is completely insane and should be changed. I happen to be a "citizenist" like Steve and a liberal. We need to take care of our own countrymen of all races before we extend charity to the rest of the world.
This is off-topic, but interesting, considering how much talk there is of Ivy League admission's policies around here: Participation in such Red State activities as high school ROTC, 4-H clubs, or the Future Farmers of America was found to reduce very substantially a student's chances of gaining admission to the competitive private colleges in the NSCE database on an all-other-things-considered basis. The admissions disadvantage was greatest for those in leadership positions in these activities or those winning honors and awards. "Being an officer or winning awards" for such career-oriented activities as junior ROTC, 4-H, or Future Farmers of America, say Espenshade and Radford, "has a significantly negative association with admission outcomes at highly selective institutions." Excelling in these activities "is associated with 60 or 65 percent lower odds of admission.
I have long suspected that the policy of elite schools of considering "the whole person" rather than simply GPA, ACT and SAT scores has more to do with politically shaping their admittees than it does with selecting a high-quality group of students. This appears to prove I'm not wrong.
You can't have your cake and eat it. You can't claim to be all HBD and citizenist, and also reject affluent northeast asians. That's highly inconsistent.
You obviously first have your cake, noting that it is a strawberry torte. Then you note that there are slices of rum cake, plum cake, and pound cake on other people's plates. Then you eat your own cake. Talking and eating at the same time is rude.
You certainly do not scrape the icing off everyone else's cake, eat it, and then proudly declare yourself to be tolerant.
Mr. Richburg is of course right - the 14th amendment was passed in order to grant to his ancestors and their descendents the priveledges of american citizenship. That some idiot supreme court justices construed it to mean that we have an obligation to grant citizenship to the entire world does not make it so. The time will come when people other than nine black-robed nabobs will be forced to decide what the constitution means.
There is an article in the American Spectator about the ruling class and the people. Immigration is touched on.
Basically, the elite/ruling class wishes to replace ordinary people who they hate and loathe and feel superior to, with anyone else.
Is this politically sustainable? With looking at ten years or more of stagnation at best, or possibly a double dip depression, not really. Michelle Bachman founded a Tea Party Caucus in the House, it looks like the Tea Party, amorphous as it is, will become some form of White ordinary folks identity party taking over the Republicans.
Can the 14th Amendment be redefined? The 18th was abolished by the 20th. So yes, it is possible.
Then again, perhaps we could do better than the 14th amendment. Let's just declare everyone in the world to be a U.S. citizen - and then send them all a letter demanding that they immediately start paying their U.S. income tax, or dire consequences shall follow.
The assumption was that you were going to be over-run by someone, and, if so, then would you rather be over-run by hoards of Moon-God-worshipping Middle Eastern cretins hell-bent on slaughtering you, or by some fine-assed Chinese Christian trim which might actually enjoy making babies with you?
Your fantasies aside, "fine-assed Chinese Christian trim" has zero interest in having babies with you.
Returning to San Francisco after a recent trip to Europe I was surprised to to see the many lines waiting to clear customs were very nearly all Asian.
A young friend returned from China several years back with a Chinese bride. After establishing residency she sent for her parents who upon arrival applied for social security benefits. Once the benefits started the parents returned to China along with their monthly stipend. My friend's wife then asked for a divorce.
>"one more choice for our baby."
>And one less choice for an American kid.<
I wonder when the neocons will start weighing in here with the usual talking point: "it's not a zero-sum game."
Of course it is a zero-sum game. Whatever resources are in existence at a particular moment in time, they are finite. The wrinkled dollar bill in your pocket is not in someone else's pocket, is it?
A human life is finite. Maybe eighty years, maybe twenty of them decisive. Miss that period and you've missed it. Such a period might come around again in two hundred years, but you won't be around then.
There are only so many slots in a given school. Your kid gets one or he doesn't. He can't wait until he's thirty years old to attend that particular grammar school.
Flesh and blood people are being done out of their lives by outsiders. Why should they go quietly? Because some neocon commentator or "political scientist" (chortle) preaches a philosophy at them - that he himself has not intention of following?
How in-our-heads do they expect us to be?
"birth tourism is a minor issue."
Horse puckies.
Just as the imminvasion from Mexico got its start from a few anchor babies of Mexicanas who managed to illegally sneak across the border to give birth and thereby enabled chain migration by harboring from INS and sponsoring for citizenship all their extended family -- who then went on to harbor/sponsor more Mexicans, and so on and so on, such that now large parts of CA are majority-Hispanic -- so too will the Asian birth tourist anchor babies.
Off topic. Steve: I think you might find the following worthy of a post. The dating site OKCupid tracks user data and blogs about it. Here they analyze user racial preferences:
http://blog.okcupid.com/index.php/2009/10/05/your-race-affects-whether-people-write-you-back/
The piece concludes, "According to our internal metrics, at least, OkCupid’s users are better-educated, younger, and far more progressive than the norm, so I can imagine that many sites would actually have worse race stats." White women are the most racially conscious, it turns out.
Kylie said...
I said..."Better smart Chinese with money than low IQ Mexicans without any."
[...]
I'd just as soon the choice were between immigration and no immigration.
You'll never have that choice.
Don't all western nations give citizenship to all the babies born within their boundaries? I know Canada does.
"A young friend returned from China several years back with a Chinese bride. After establishing residency she sent for her parents who upon arrival applied for social security benefits. Once the benefits started the parents returned to China along with their monthly stipend. My friend's wife then asked for a divorce."
I don't know if I feel sorry for your friend or mad at him being what the relationship climate is in this country. And that women gets to stay here.
The more I read about the nonsense that our "leaders" perpetrate on us the sicker I become. Why would they allow these parents to get Social Security?
"That some idiot supreme court justices construed it to mean that we have an obligation to grant citizenship to the entire world does not make it so."
When was that challenged? Would a strict constructionist vote to allow birthright citizenship the way we have it now?
We should easily be able to get a constitutional amendment past to change it anyway.
CCBLF
Birth tourism IS a minor issue. The difference between Mexico and and almost any nation other than Canada, is the expense of coming here and staying to give birth. We're talking plane tickets, living accomodations...etc. The reason anchor babies from Mexico are an issue is due to the fact that Mexicans are walking distance from a poorly secured border.
That being said, children of illegal immigrants should not be considered natural born citizens and it is time Congress passed a law saying so.
BT,
I hate to break it to you but the 14A is not subject to an expiration date. Otherwise, you would not be a US citizen either. You intepretation is beyond retarded.
" thought the koreans pioneered this stuff decades ago. don't they fly to hawaii to give birth, then immediately fly back to south korea"
I read that South korea doesn't take immigrants but we have to take everybody.
"No. By definition of the constitution, they ARE American. :
It wasn't in the original constitution that's why they had an amendmend and as others have pointed out the amendment doesn't even say what you think it says.
My advice to the world:Stay the hell out of America and fix your own country.
When there is mass immigration the immigrants never have to assimilate. This is what we have in Canada. In Richmond (a suburb of Vancouver) there is a large Chinese community. There are many stores that have all signage in Chinese. You could live there easily without ever learning English. Although they tend to be prosperous and well educated, they have brought corruption with them from China. They apply their intelligence to inventing ways to avoid paying tax and to scamming the government. Concepts such as donating money or time to charity, or donating blood, or contributing to the good of the country, are not a part of their culture. Because there are so many of them, I don't think they are going to ever assimilate, any more than British immigrants assimilated into the native culture. The corruption worries me because it will sooner or later make our country more like China, where corruption is rampant.
People might say, well, so what? The Europeans changed the native Indian culture, so now the Chinese are changing the British culture. But the thing is the Europeans didn't come to North America because they liked the government benefits here. They came to build a country and make improvements. I don't think the Chinese have come here to make improvements. They have come here because they think this is already a better place to live than China. But so many come that they bring their culture with them, so soon it won't be a better place than China. Already in businesses owned by Chinese the workers (new immigrants themselves) are not always given the rights that Canadian law entitles them too. Safety standards go by the wayside.
This is also a problem in the East Indian community too. For example they take all the seats out of a van, and replace them with boards so they can fit more farm workers in. There was a terrible accident involving such a van near Vancouver. The East Indians are into trucking, but they don't maintain the trucks safely as they are required to do by Canadian law. They have come up with all sorts of crooked scams to avoid doing so. We all have to drive on the same roads as those unsafe trucks.
People moving from a more corrupt part of the world will bring the corruption with them. It doesn't matter how smart or educated they are...they will bring the corruption and they will bring a culture that is low in trust and social capital. They just look out for their own clan, and everyone else can be damned.
This is what we are becoming.
When there is mass immigration the immigrants never have to assimilate. This is what we have in Canada. In Richmond (a suburb of Vancouver) there is a large Chinese community. There are many stores that have all signage in Chinese. You could live there easily without ever learning English. Although they tend to be prosperous and well educated, they have brought corruption with them from China. They apply their intelligence to inventing ways to avoid paying tax and to scamming the government. Concepts such as donating money or time to charity, or donating blood, or contributing to the good of the country, are not a part of their culture. Because there are so many of them, I don't think they are going to ever assimilate, any more than British immigrants assimilated into the native culture. The corruption worries me because it will sooner or later make our country more like China, where corruption is rampant.
People might say, well, so what? The Europeans changed the native Indian culture, so now the Chinese are changing the British culture. But the thing is the Europeans didn't come to North America because they liked the government benefits here. They came to build a country and make improvements. I don't think the Chinese have come here to make improvements. They have come here because they think this is already a better place to live than China. But so many come that they bring their culture with them, so soon it won't be a better place than China. Already in businesses owned by Chinese the workers (new immigrants themselves) are not always given the rights that Canadian law entitles them too. Safety standards go by the wayside.
This is also a problem in the East Indian community too. For example they take all the seats out of a van, and replace them with boards so they can fit more farm workers in. There was a terrible accident involving such a van near Vancouver. The East Indians are into trucking, but they don't maintain the trucks safely as they are required to do by Canadian law. They have come up with all sorts of crooked scams to avoid doing so. We all have to drive on the same roads as those unsafe trucks.
People moving from a more corrupt part of the world will bring the corruption with them. It doesn't matter how smart or educated they are...they will bring the corruption and they will bring a culture that is low in trust and social capital. They just look out for their own clan, and everyone else can be damned.
This is what we are becoming.
The time will come when people other than nine black-robed nabobs will be forced to decide what the constitution means.
Hear, hear.
Your fantasies aside, "fine-assed Chinese Christian trim" has zero interest in having babies with you.
Oh, you might be surprised.
You might just be surprised...
Please vote for JD Hayworth and Rand Paul. These guys are serious about fixing America's immigration problems.
Whiskey - that is a LONG article, by Angelo M. Codevilla, in the American Spectator.
I just did a "Print Preview", and it came to 22 pages - single spaced, no less!
Wow.
Melykin
You might be suprised by this but other than blaming the bad habits of immigrants on them being Chinese or Indian, I agree with a lot of what you said. Immigration needs to be more targeted and set at lower levels to expedite assimilation and maintain social harmony.
However, as far as labor laws and workers rights not being enforced, who should you blame that on? The immigrants themselves, who are generally not aware of the customs and laws of their adoptive nation or the government that fails to enforce said laws and chooses to overlook abuses by employers. You act like such abuses are only present in migrant communities. If you are that concerned about workers rights and safety, then support parties that favor strong unions and enforcement of labor laws, last time I checked that did not describe the parties of the right (of which I am sure most commentators here belong to).
Let me ask this of all the commenters here:
Would ya'll here support a political party that favors immigration restriction, is not racialist, and is left wing, even socialist in its economic views?
Oh, you might be surprised.
You might just be surprised...
If I came across Christian women who expressed interest in having babies with the sort of dicks who describe them as "fine assed trim"?
Yeah, I guess I would be surprised.
PS - whatever other fine qualities Chinese women possess, nature shortchanged them in the "ass" department. Just FYI.
I hate to break it to you but the 14A is not subject to an expiration date.
And no one says it is. It continues to be effective. The point is that is doesn't say anything about who is a citizen today.
Otherwise, you would not be a US citizen either. You intepretation is beyond retarded.
The fact that the Fourteenth Amendment says nothing about who is a citizen today does not mean that citizenship cannot be determined on other grounds.
No. By definition of the constitution, they ARE American. If you don't like it, then go ahead and redefine what it means to be American in the document so many Americans believe defines the basis for society.
The Constitution does not say that any child born on American soil is automatically a US citizen, and no court has ever claimed such a thing.
That is currently the law, but it is statute law and could be changed by Congress tomorrow if they wished.
I hate to break it to you but the 14A is not subject to an expiration date.
I hate to break it to you, but the 14th Amendment was never legally ratified.
But the thing is the Europeans didn't come to North America because they liked the government benefits here. They came to build a country and make improvements.
The Europeans came to North America to replace the native population and to live. Not to "make improvements" in some vague sense. And that's what non-European populations moving to North America en masse are doing: migrating to replace the native population (now the "native" population is Euro) and to live.
These kids are going to be disproportionately smart and rich. If they come to the US, they'll be likely to contribute in a positive manner, both economically and genetically.
You have a very left-wing understanding of what the term "positive" looks like.
When there is mass immigration the immigrants never have to assimilate. This is what we have in Canada. In Richmond (a suburb of Vancouver) there is a large Chinese community. There are shopping malls that have all signage in Chinese. You could live there easily without ever learning English. Although they tend to be prosperous and well educated, they have brought corruption with them from China. They tend to apply their intelligence to (among other things) inventing ways to avoid paying tax and to scamming the system. Concepts such as donating money or time to charity, or donating blood, or contributing to the good of the country, are not a part of their culture. Because there are so many of them, I don't think they are going to ever assimilate completely, any more than British immigrants assimilated into the native culture. The corruption worries me because it will sooner or later make our country more like China, where corruption is rampant, hence food is tainted, substandard buildings crumble in earthquakes, factories spew out pollution, and coal mines are death traps.
People might say..well so what if this happens? The Europeans changed the native Indian culture, so now the Chinese are changing the British culture. But the thing is the Europeans didn't come to North America because they liked the government benefits here. They came to build a country and make improvements. I don't think the Chinese have come here to make improvements. They have come here because they think this is already a better place to live than China. But so many come that they bring their culture with them, so soon it won't be a better place than China. Already in businesses owned by Chinese, the workers (new immigrants themselves) are not always given the rights that Canadian law entitles them too. Safety standards go by the wayside.
This is also a problem in the East Indian community too. For example they take all the seats out of a van, and replace them with boards so they can fit more farm workers in. There was a terrible accident involving such a van near Vancouver. The East Indians are into trucking, but they don't maintain the trucks safely as they are required to do by Canadian law. They have come up with all sorts of crooked scams to avoid doing so. We all have to drive on the same roads as those unsafe trucks.
People moving from a more corrupt part of the world will bring the corruption with them. It doesn't matter how smart or educated they are...they will bring the corruption and they will bring a culture that is low in trust and social capital. They just tend to look out for their own clan, and everyone else can be damned.
This is what we are becoming.
"Birth tourism IS a minor issue. We're talking plane tickets, living accomodations...etc."
PPPPTTTTT.
Who do you think you're kidding? The cost of a one-way plane ticket will keep out the anchor babies' cousins? Pffft. Probably less money than the illegals' pay their coyotes to drive them across the desert.
Asians are smarter than Mexicans -- therefore they can earn more in America, therefore they can pay their cousins' plane tickets.
Strategy goes like this: The Asian anchor baby gets into a good American college and saves and sends back the funds for a few relatives to fly over -- who all bunk in together and work to save enough for plane tickets for some more...
Because Asians are clannish -- what do they call it? Filial piety? -- the Asian anchor baby certainly WILL bring in half a dozen, who'll bring half a dozen more, and so on and so on...
Minor issue, my a##. Looks like a small problem now, maybe, but then again, a dam burst begins with just the tiniest of leaks..
Well we gotta throw the bums out of office. That starts with McCain and ends with Obama. Tough on immigration conservatives are what this country needs, but we're not going to get that if we have our current elites.
That's why I'm happy about this Tea Party movement. We're finally letting the bureaucrats, politicans, and media know that we aint gonna take it no more. You get the spending and immigration under control, or we're gonna vote you bums out of office. The Tea Party is a grass roots movement to bring back sanity to America. Combined with right wing media (talk radio, Fox News, etc.), we've got a fighting chance.
I feel the momentum shifting in our direction and I think the broader society, especially conservatives, are digusted at the hole that our elites have driven us into. We want sanity restored in DC.
If you got some extra cash, please donate to ALIPAC or Minutemen or Hayworth (supports moratorium on immigration) or Rand Paul (no more birthright citizenship). Or write your Congressman in support of these organizations/campaigns. These guys are doing something tangible to fix the system and secure a future for us. Also, please (PLEASE!) do not vote for any Democrats or establishment Republicans (ie Meg Whitman). Real conservatives only.
By the way, on a happy note, Tancredo is preferred candidate for Colorado governor among GOP voters.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/07/16/tom-tancredo-is-preferred_n_649644.html
Anonymous wrote:
The Europeans came to North America to replace the native population and to live. Not to "make improvements" in some vague sense. And that's what non-European populations moving to North America en masse are doing: migrating to replace the native population (now the "native" population is Euro) and to live.
==========================
What I was trying to say is that when Europeans came to North America, they came from, and reproduced in their new homeland, a society that had a much higher standard of living than the natives had produced here.
When immigrants from China and India come to North America, they come from, and reproduce in their new homeland, a society that has a somewhat LOWER standard of living than the Europeans had produced here.
I think the problem with assimilation is worse in Europe. The immigrants in Europe are producing a society that has a MUCH lower standard of living than what was there before they came.
I do agree with what you say about population replacement, and it makes me feel a lot more sympathy to the First Nations people (even if they were living a harsh, brutal stone age life before Europeans). However, Canada does a lot for First Nations. They still have lots of problems mainly because of a tragic tendency to addiction. One of the worst thing Europeans did to the natives was bring alcohol to their land.
I have a feeling that if and when the Chinese and Indians take over completely it is not going to go well for the First Nations.
Pissed Off Chinaman said...
...as far as labor laws and workers rights not being enforced, who should you blame that on? The immigrants themselves, who are generally not aware of the customs and laws of their adoptive nation or the government that fails to enforce said laws and chooses to overlook abuses by employers. You act like such abuses are only present in migrant communities.
================================
The abuses ARE largely in the migrant communities. The thing is, laws, and the ways they are enforced, tend to evolve very slowly. They are not something that you can turn around on a dime. Most Euro Canadians don't even realize that some countries are more corrupt than others. They think all countries have a basically very low level of corruption, because that is what they are used to (except maybe in Quebec). The Canadians don't understand what is happening until something bad, like that crash that killed all those farm workers. The inspection of vehicles is contracted out to private garages--a system that worked reasonable well before the huge wave of immigrants came. Now of course the East Indians run garages and become inspectors. They will pass anything as long as you pay them enough, I suppose. There was an investigation after the van accident, and some garages got into trouble for this. But that was probably just the tip of the iceberg.
The Canadian legal system is simply not good at dealing with all these new problems and all these new ways of breaking the laws. Most Canadians won't even talk about this sort of thing, or acknowledge there is a problem, because it is not considered polite to say anything bad about the immigrants. Anyone who does is called a racist. This type of denial applies even to things as bad as honour killings.
The Canadian legal system is sort of like a deer in the headlights. It is stunned, and unable to cope. We are letting violent gangsters from Somalia out on bail with a "promise to appear". We don't deport them. Indeed they can string out appeals for years and years. We just seem to be incapable of deporting anyone.
@Pissed off Chinaman, continued:
(I got a message saying my post was too long, so I am splitting it in two--this is second part)
Another example--the Air India trial. This followed the destruction of an Air India plane by some Sikhs from British Columbia. Hundreds of people died when the plane blew up off the coast of Ireland. The trial took TWENTY YEARS to complete and cost millions. Only one person was convicted. The Sikhs lied their way through the testimony and MURDERED several witnesses and threatened many more. The Canadian legal system just isn't used to dealing with this sort of thing. The Sikhs who were being tried even scammed a lot of money in legal aid (they claimed to be broke) but it turned out they were very wealthy. One of them (who was not convicted) is now trying to sue the government! The actually master mind of the bombing went back to India. The Indian police got hold of him and he died mysteriously a few days later, in jail. Of course it seems terrible to Canadians that the police could get away with killing someone and not even giving them a trial...but I can see where the Indian police are coming from in this case. Certainly the person would likely never have been brought to justice in Canada.
Maybe the Euro-Canadian society is too high-trust to deal with people from low trust countries. It takes time for something like that to change, and a lot of people are in denial. It is very unpleasant to suddenly have your friendly, high-trust culture invaded by people like those Sikhs who lie every time their mouth is moving, and blow up planes. It is like getting hit by a club.
The Chinese are perhaps more sophisticated about it. For example, someone in Richmond was selling software to restaurants that somehow reduced the amount of tax they had to pay. (They were charged criminally.) Another enterprising Chinese immigrant ran a driving school which guaranteed customers that they could get a license even if they didn't speak English, etc. He was bribing one of the people who give the driving tests (also an immigrant), and they were basically selling drivers licenses. (Perhaps this explains why so many new immigrants are such bad drivers.)
Another problem is cheating in schools and universities. Certainly there was some level of cheating going on among Euro Canadians--but it got MUCH worse when the new immigrants came. I myself teach at a college, and I used to be very trusting and pretty much assumed that everyone was honest. Then I found out my students (esp. those from China) were cheating their brains out. Now I watch very carefully for cheaters. It was very disillusioning. It was as if you had always left your front door unlocked. Then some new people moved in. You trusted them even though they looked different. Then they robbed you.
By the way, the immigrants know very well they are braking the laws when they do these sorts of things. They have no respect for the laws. They believe they can get around the laws, because that is what they could do in their home country.
@Pissed off Chinaman
part 3 (problem submitting post --it was too long)
Another problem is cheating in schools and universities. Certainly there was some level of cheating going on among Euro Canadians--but it got MUCH worse when the new immigrants came. I myself teach at a college, and I used to be very trusting and pretty much assumed that everyone was honest. Then I found out my students (esp. those from China) were cheating their brains out. Now I watch very carefully for cheaters. It was very disillusioning. It was as if you had always left your front door unlocked. Then some new people moved in. You trusted them even though they looked different. Then they robbed you.
By the way, the immigrants know very well they are braking the laws when they do these sorts of things. They have no respect for the laws. They believe they can get around the laws, because that is what they could do in their home country.
These kids are going to be disproportionately smart and rich. If they come to the US, they'll be likely to contribute in a positive manner, both economically and genetically.
First, thanks for the admission that they might be smart, endorsing HBD there.
Second, as I think we are all aware an immigrant group doing well, better than the average of the indigenous population, is not a positive. Just as an immigrant group who do worse than the natives is a negative. Think of the resentments unfounded or not, the class divisions etc.
The best immigrants are those performing neither better nor worse than the natives. The odds are that means immigrants who are most like the existing population.
According to our internal metrics, at least, OkCupid’s users are better-educated, younger, and far more progressive than the norm, so I can imagine that many sites would actually have worse race stats.
I thought it was well documented that education was negatively correlated with inter racial dating.
The better educated the woman, the less likely to have a non-white partner.
The belief that well educated white girls are more likely to have non-white partners is just SWPLs jerking themselves off.
Talking of fime assed Chinese girls, sounds great but...
I live in a town in Britain with a large student population, many of them are Chinese (not British born Chinese). I rarely, if ever, see a fine assed Chinese girl amongst them. They really do nothing for me at all. Of course thats subjective, I prefer real women, curves etc.
I do note that they mix little with the other, often black students (this is not a first rank institution) and almost not at all with the white locals.
Actually there are more fine assed black girl students now I come to think about it.
It just goes to show that fine assed or otherwise its hardly a good criterion for immigration selection.
"Your fantasies aside, "fine-assed Chinese Christian trim" has zero interest in having babies with you. "
What's that mean? I remember a docu featuring Asian women complaining about "western" beauty standards (naturally) and the expectation that they should have butts and legs like "westerners" (Caucsasians actually.) I'd never thought about it, being female myself. I knew Asian women were not known for big breasts, but that hardly seemed like a downer to me, since I never wanted huge knockers either. And I knew about eye jobs, but their eyes are one of their charms according to Asian aficiandos.
But the butts and legs--hadn't thought of that one.
Beware Caucasoids. There is no end to the characteristics, evil and good, that we stand to be accused of.
Has any entering wedge ever been thick?
Pissed Off Chinaman:
However, as far as labor laws and workers rights not being enforced, who should you blame that on? The immigrants themselves, who are generally not aware of the customs and laws of their adoptive nation or the government that fails to enforce said laws and chooses to overlook abuses by employers.
This is the essence of the gnostic, progressivist mindset:
Bigger government! More laws! To handle all the problems generated by importing wildly disparate populations with no appreciation of the rule of law! More government to handle the government-generated problems, that our gnostic vision might be realized!
The answer, it seems, is NEVER to refrain from generating such problems to begin with.
And no, I don't want socialism. My country wasn't founded on socialism, and not even the Chinese Communist Party believes in socialism. You want to live in a socialist country, pick one and move there. Don't agitate to displace the very culture that made the US such a desirable destination for your parents in the first instance.
Would ya'll here support a political party that favors immigration restriction, is not racialist, and is left wing, even socialist in its economic views?
1) No.
2) Ya'll is spelled y'all.
Off-topic link for Steve:
http://martynemko.blogspot.com/2009/06/white-teacher-speaks-out-what-is-it.html
This is worse than I'd ever imagined.
"Because Asians are clannish -- what do they call it? Filial piety? -- the Asian anchor baby certainly WILL bring in half a dozen, who'll bring half a dozen more, and so on and so on..."
Sigh!
That's a pretty stupid conclusion to draw. Again, look up exogamy statistics (so much for Asians being clannish) and look at the sizes of Asian families (hint: TFR way below replacement level).
As long as they learn to speak English and give lipservice to following our laws-great.
"People moving from a more corrupt part of the world will bring the corruption with them. It doesn't matter how smart or educated they are...they will bring the corruption and they will bring a culture that is low in trust and social capital. They just look out for their own clan, and everyone else can be damned.
This is what we are becoming."
I understand your concerns, but don't think this doesn't go on among the native population too. Corruption is pretty big here in the south, and in some places you can't even get a job (particularly as a teacher) unless you know the right people. Clannishness isn't dead here yet.
Yes, the 500-600 people who have come here through this program over the past 5 years are going to overwhelm America...
AG,
First of all, it was my grandparents who immigrated to this country, not my parents (who were both born in the US).
Secondly, the problems and negative externalities produced by an unregulated market and gangster capitalism would be present with or without immigrants. That is why laws were passed to guarantee worker safety and the right to organize unions, strike...etc. My parents are both union members incidentally. High levels of immigration make it easier for companies to break unions and pay low wages; however they would try to do that with or without immigration.
melykin,
I'm sorry to hear that. I am certain that your assertions are not entirely incorrect. However, I still maintain that immigrant groups getting around the law is only a partial explanation for increased corruption and the lack of willingness to enforce the law. I live in the US and in my experience academic cheating is equally endemic among all groups. Of course, such dishonesty spreads as students move into the workforce and society.
Here in the US, I think a lot of it is a function of a winner take all results oriented society. An attitude of "everyone does it so I need to get mine." People look at our nation's leaders in all fields and conclude that the only way to succeed is to have an edge on the other guy. I would think that similar issues and attitudes are present in Canada. Frankly, if we want more honesty and less corruption, we need an economically fairer society. That includes seriously enforcing labor laws and making it easier for folks to file complaints when employers violate their rights. Blaming immigrants is a cop out. That being said, I concede that such issues would be better dealt with if immigration levels were lower.
"The trial took TWENTY YEARS to complete and cost millions. Only one person was convicted. The Sikhs lied their way through the testimony and MURDERED several witnesses and threatened many more. The Canadian legal system just isn't used to dealing with this sort of thing. The Sikhs who were being tried even scammed a lot of money in legal aid (they claimed to be broke) but it turned out they were very wealthy. One of them (who was not convicted) is now trying to sue the government! The actually master mind of the bombing went back to India. The Indian police got hold of him and he died mysteriously a few days later, in jail. Of course it seems terrible to Canadians that the police could get away with killing someone and not even giving them a trial...but I can see where the Indian police are coming from in this case. Certainly the person would likely never have been brought to justice in Canada. "
I see a lot of conservatives extolling the virtues of Sikh immigrants and I realize how misplaced their enthusiasm is.
They're known, in India, to be particularly aggressive (they're consequently overrepresented in the Indian armed forces), not very law-abiding, extremely religious and sensitive about their religion, not particularly smart (the first suggestion in google for Sikhs is, "are Sikhs stupid"), have a very poor sex ratio (needless to say, they treat women like trash), clannish, and morally bankrupt. Note: non-Sikh Punjabis are stereotyped as being similar in all respects, except they're less religious, and somewhat less aggressive.
OTOH, they are extremely entrepreneurial and socially conservative (they'd happily jump on to the anti-gay, anti-NAM bandwagon, if ever there was one).
All in all, they're not the kind of immigrants one would expect to assimilate into the mainstream easily.
If at all the US/Canada wants to take in immigrants from India, Syrian Christian, Jain, and upper case Hindu immigrants from Western and Southern India, as well as Bengal, *with a good education* are a much better bet.
What I was trying to say is that when Europeans came to North America, they came from, and reproduced in their new homeland, a society that had a much higher standard of living than the natives had produced here.
When immigrants from China and India come to North America, they come from, and reproduce in their new homeland, a society that has a somewhat LOWER standard of living than the Europeans had produced here.
I know what you were "trying to say." My point is that it's irrelevant and stupid. The fundamental issue is population replacement. Even if these new immigrants from China and India were raising the "standard of value," that wouldn't justify population replacement. Just as an advanced alien race with much more advanced space technology isn't justified in seizing planet Earth simply because it might be able to raise the "standard of value" of Earth.
I understand your concerns, but don't think this doesn't go on among the native population too. Corruption is pretty big here in the south, and in some places you can't even get a job (particularly as a teacher) unless you know the right people. Clannishness isn't dead here yet.
Well, thats clannishness on our side. A committed white person who really wanted to teach could cultivate the right people. There is no 'in' with another group. Either you fit or you dont.
You could say that was just as bad but the alternative isnt goiing to be pure meritocracy, its going to be other clannish types filling the vaccum.
"I know what you were "trying to say." My point is that it's irrelevant and stupid. The fundamental issue is population replacement. Even if these new immigrants from China and India were raising the "standard of value," that wouldn't justify population replacement."
Asians/Indians are not a threat as far as population replacement goes. Asians for the most part tend to marry whites, and the children of these unions just get absorbed into the white population. I know plenty of people who are 1/4 Asian but none who are 3/4 Asian, for example. Asians assimilate better than just about anyone else. Besides, they are hard-working and don't commit many crimes. Most of the whites who fear the little Asian immigration we have are probably mad because Asians are comptetion for college spots. My answer is that whites should simply work harder, its good for everyone if that happens.
However I wouldn't want too much Indian immigration considering I've heard various horror stories from friends who work at Subway about the treatment they receive from their Indian bosses (Indians seem to run all the subways around here)
Anonymous wrote:
I see a lot of conservatives extolling the virtues of Sikh immigrants and I realize how misplaced their enthusiasm is....
they're not the kind of immigrants one would expect to assimilate into the mainstream easily.
=================
NOW you tell us. There are probably at least 300,000 of them in the Vancouver area. Maybe no other Indians will come because of them. Oh well, they are still much better than Somalians.
bamagirl:
About corruption, check out Transparency International , which ranks the countries of the world by corruption. It would be interesting to see such a ranking for the US states and Canadian provinces. (Quebec definitely most corrupt in Canada).
And by the way, in Vancouver we are not talking about a "small" number of east Asians. They make up about 30% of the city. If we have to have immigrants they are probably one of the best types to have. But why do we have to have immigrants? Why so many?
The very facts of HBD means that the ethnic groups are going to be different in significant ways. These differences tend to lead to resentments and social discord. A fairly racially homogeneous population tends to be more high-trust and have more social capital. When you get to the point where you've got, say, 40% white, 30% Chinese, 20% Sikh, 10% other, with the racially similar populations living together in certain parts of the city, than the city becomes Balkanized.
I think housing developers encouraged the immigration so they could sell more houses. The housing prices in Vancouver have gone through the roof. Even though I was born there (in the 50's) and grew up there I can't afford to live there now. You pay a million bucks for a little bungalow. It is ridiculous.
Most of the whites who fear the little Asian immigration we have are probably mad because Asians are comptetion for college spots. My answer is that whites should simply work harder, its good for everyone if that happens.
My suggestion is that you spend more time reading this web site, where you will find out that "working harder" has diddly to do with getting ahead.
As for "little" Asian immigration, why don't you try to get a job in IT and get back to me?
A couple of years ago two Chinese students were found brutally beaten to death in Newcastle, England.
The early news reports constantly mentioned the lack of diversity in the part of town where they lived. They showed local English kids playing in the street and being boisterous.
Have a look at this link to find out why they were killed.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2577630/Chinese-student-murdered-in-Newcastle-may-have-used-forged-documents.html
One of the students got on an MA course by claiming to have a degree from another British university, which was a lie.
How hard would it have been to check on that, a email would have been sufficient?
"NOW you tell us. There are probably at least 300,000 of them in the Vancouver area."
Heh. Wasn't all of this evident anyway? The primary constituencies of Punjabi politicians in Canada are, well, Punjabis themselves.
They'll soon be like Keith Vaz, the Indian-origin MP in Britain who is opposed to a restriction on immigration from India.
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world/indians-abroad/Indian-origin-MP-slams-Britains-proposed-immigration-curbs/articleshow/6181408.cms
I've wondered why any country would allow itself to be overrun by enough immigrants to have ghettos form. If there's a reason why America has Nikki Haley and Bobby Jindal, it is because Indian ghettos were never allowed to form.
I've heard various horror stories from friends who work at Subway about the treatment they receive from their Indian bosses (Indians seem to run all the subways around here)
I mentioned earlier about the Chinese at th local British university.
An Indian student from the same uni has bought up a couple of lcal Subway franchises.
This is breathlessly descibed in the local paper as natural exploitation of an opportunity, its students who eat a lot of this crap, by a bright eyed bushy tailed go-getter.
One wonders where a 20 year old student finds the money to do this.
The local paper doesnt see focusing on the nature of extended families and their financial resources as something worth reporting of course.
My understanding is tourist visas aren't issued to pregnant women. Is that not the case, or are these women lying on their applications?
Most of the whites who fear the little Asian immigration we have are probably mad because Asians are comptetion for college spots. My answer is that whites should simply work harder, its good for everyone if that happens.
Nothing wrong with hard work. Whites need to work harder at a lot of things, including losing weight, stopping immigration, and their statistics homework.
If I'm not misinformed, northeast Asians take it on the chin from affirmative action in America's most populous state. I would suggest that citizens of northeast Asian descent abandon the left pronto, and join the citizenist right. There are a lot of white Americans sitting on the fence between the citizenist and ethnonationalist movements. Adding a no-nonsense Asian hardness to the former could make whites feel less isolated.
Worth a shot?
http://martynemko.blogspot.com/2009/06/white-teacher-speaks-out-what-is-it.html
This is worse than I'd ever imagined.
Fun. Reading this is almost like being their as a young Colemanesque Obsidian asks white mopes the tough questions they can't answer.
"My students were sometimes unable
to see the world except through the lens
of their own blackness. I had a class
that was host to a German exchange
student. One day he put on a Power Point
presentation with famous German landmarks
as well as his school and family.
From time to time during the presentation,
blacks would scream, “Where da
black folk?!” The exasperated German
tried several times to explain that there
were no black people where he lived in
Germany. The students did not believe
him. I told them Germany is in Europe,
where white people are from, and Africa
is where black people are from. They
insisted that the German student was
racist and deliberately refused to associate
with blacks."
"Well, thats clannishness on our side. A committed white person who really wanted to teach could cultivate the right people. There is no 'in' with another group. Either you fit or you dont.
You could say that was just as bad but the alternative isnt goiing to be pure meritocracy, its going to be other clannish types filling the vaccum."
Very good point.
Anonymous wrote:
I've wondered why any country would allow itself to be overrun by enough immigrants to have ghettos form. If there's a reason why America has Nikki Haley and Bobby Jindal, it is because Indian ghettos were never allowed to form.
============================
Neither Sikhs nor Chinese in Vancouver live in ghettos. They live in every part of the city, although the suburb of Richmond is noted as being largely Chinese, while Surrey and Abbotsford are noted for having a lot of Sikhs. The Sikhs tend to be quite prosperous and live in very large houses with their extended family. Sometimes they will buy a normal size house and tear it down, and replace it with a "monster house" that takes up most of the lot. The houses themselves are not shabby or cheap, just bigger than what the neighbourhood is used to.
I would say a disproportionate number of young male Sikhs are involved in gangs, but they mostly just shoot each other. Most of the young Sikhs are probably assimilating pretty well. Lots of them go to university.
I think it is mostly the old men who are involved in the extremism. In Surrey they have a parade every year that has a float with pictures of the terrorist that master minded the Air India bombing. This creates a lot of controversy. A few years ago they had some sort of fight at one of their temples, and the riot police had to be called. It was a dispute over whether or not to use tables and chairs, or to follow the tradition of having people sit on the floor.
They have a tendency to get involved in politics, but I would say a disproportionate number of Sikh politicians have been involved in some sort of sordid financial scandal. But not all of them. Ujjal Dosanjh , for example, seems like a good guy. He was, briefly, premier of B.C. (like a governor) and is now a federal Member of Parliament. He is a moderate Sikh. He was once beaten up by some extremists for criticizing them in the newspaper that he published. He is well respected in general.
I would say that the Sikhs assimilate a lot better than Muslims (from what I read about Muslims). The extremist Sikhs seems to be very angry at India (the Indian government) about one of their temples in India being attacked years ago. They get angry at other Sikhs who cross them. But they are not just generally angry at EVERYONE the way Muslims seem to be. I don't think Sikhs are going to start blowing up random stuff in Canada. I think Islam is a much more dangerous religion than Sikhism. The Sikhs don't seem to want to take over the world. Some have old fashioned ideas about arranged marriages, etc., but they don't make the women wear veils or head covers. They don't demand that public buildings provide them with foot baths and prayer rooms. They don't have massive riots about cartoons. They don't seem to have any interested in making converts.
I don't think a disproportionate number of them are on welfare (although such information would never be made public). They seem to be very much into making money. Frankly I wouldn't do business with them because I would probably get ripped off.
About why so many have been let in to Canada--I'm not sure. But once a populations reaches a certain tipping point they become a voting block, and politicians are afraid to offend them by cutting back on immigration.
>Yes, the 500-600 people who have come here through this program over the past 5 years are going to overwhelm America...<
Ding! Ding! Ding! You win the "Present-Oriented Order of Merit First Class." Been givin' 'em out since Operation Wetback (Google that, dear).
"That's a pretty stupid conclusion to draw."
No, it's not.
"Again, look up exogamy statistics (so much for Asians being clannish) and look at the sizes of Asian families (hint: TFR way below replacement level)."
The chicks, maybe. The Asian men, not so much.
Anyway, exogamy does NOT prevent bringing over the sibs, the cousins, the parents / grandparents...
Exogamy only means the progeny will be half Asian/ half Euro. So? With 1.3 bill Chinese, there's plenty more pureblood Asians to replace the exogamy / low TFR of Asian couples in America losses.
"Gimme an immigration MORATORIUM with retroactive citizenship / expulsion."
Oops. That should be retroactive citizenship revocation / expulsion / repatriation to parents' home country of first-gen anchor babies.
@CCLF: I'm not usually into ad hominems, but your stellar insights are clear evidence of dysgenic trends within the US :)
The assertion made was:
Exogamy => They're not clannish.
What does it have to do with half-Asian and half-Euro kids?
"Anyway, exogamy does NOT prevent bringing over the sibs, the cousins, the parents / grandparents..."
There are no cousins - there's at most a cousin. These are no siblings, it's one child per family. What part is so hard to get?
You're incredibly quantitatively challenged if your model for this form of immigration makes you believe that the Chinese will immigrate in large numbers this way.
Fact check:
1. Chinese students are returning to China after their Ph.Ds.
2. There are 3 million Chinese-Americans in the US now. That includes pre-1965 (unskilled labor) and post-1965 immigrants (educated) AND their descendants.
Assuming all of the 3 million were post-1965 immigrants, and excluding any descendants, there have been, on average, 66 thousand Chinese immigrants entering each year. And these aren't anchor babies that we're talking about. So, CCLF, in her infinite wisdom, despite seeing that the overall Chinese numbers are negligible (and this when China was a complete shithole), thinks that anchor babies from an economically growing China will overwhelm the American people?
CCBLF
I'm sorry but I do not agree with retroactive revocation of citizenship. In fact I think it is unconstitutional but let's agree to disagree on that.
In any case, people on this board might find this hard to believe, but I actually do give a damn about the American white working class (and the American non-white working class too). I'd like to see lower levels of immigration just so that ordinary folks have more bargaining power over wages (not to mention making it harder for employers to break unions).
I mean their is so much nostalgia coming from social conservatives about the post-war era, but that type of society was only possible because of an activist federal government and higher marginal tax rates. If y'all really want that type of society back, immigration restriction alone is worthless.
B Lode,
Steve may be a conservative but citizenism (putting the interests of citizens first) is rooted in liberalism, abliet of the Roosevelt-Truman kind rather than the McGovern kind.
"anchor babies from an economically growing China will overwhelm the American people?"
Yes.
I'm dumb, to be sure, but f --
one thing I've learned from reading Steve is to believe my lying eyes.
I see the elite universities -- built and funded using White Americans' taxpayer dollars supposedly for their White American children, populated 25% by East Asians.
I see contests for children, like MathCOUNTS -- started by White American engineers to encourage American kids (when MathCOUNTS started, "American" was virtually synonymous with White) -- at the Nationals level of competition, (that is, the elite kids who won the fun trip) now dominated 80-90% by Asians.
So the current ostensibly tiny numbers of Asian anchor babies are no reason for complacency. These are smart people. These are clannish people. A few of them can force tremendous political change to benefit their coethnics in Asia, including changing -- or as the mestizoes have done -- merely force gov't to ignore immigration laws.
Even with Chinese one child policy, the one child can bring the grandparents, who DO have lots of relatives themselves, and the grandparents can themselves sponsor. The one child policy is only 30 years old.
Also it applies only to the city dwellers. The rurals can have more than one.
Also, we're not talking ONLY Chinese. "East Asian" refers to Chinese, Japanese and Korean.
It took only 3 million illegal aliens from Mexico in 1986 to successfully force through amnesty of that cohort. The chain reaction of that amnesty now means that there are 30 million or more of those demographic here, either from Mexico themselves or their anchor babies which ought to have not been born here, now throwing their combined weight around.
So I'm rightly skeptical of the motives of anyone that says 3 million Chinese is "negligible."
China growing economically? Not according to $SSEC index. It is down 60% from Oct '08. That is not the chart of a growing economy. That is a chart of an economy in post-bubble collapse.
Asians in the tea party?
Its tiny but vocal political class aside, the Asian-American population has many class interests that would align them with conservative/libertarian politics. They also share many similar cultural values with the right - social conservatism, evangelical christianity etc. A couple years ago, the president of the Harvard Republicans was a Chinese-American kid from Texas.
Given all that, they aren't particularly interested because the tea party is explicitly racialist. And in the political calculus, its better to go with the side that doesn't desire your expulsion even if it costs more in taxes.
@ CCLF:
"I see the elite universities -- built and funded using White Americans' taxpayer dollars supposedly for their White American children, populated 25% by East Asians."
Why does that matter? They're net contributors to the economy (typically fall into a higher tax bracket) and don't mooch off of White Americans. There are more White Americans on the dole as a proportion of their population than Chinese Americans, which means that there's a higher chance that the Chinese American is subsidizing White America than the other way around.
Further, if Asians were barred from entering elite universities, they could create their own and make them as competitive (or more) than those that exist.
"Even with Chinese one child policy, the one child can bring the grandparents, who DO have lots of relatives themselves, and the grandparents can themselves sponsor. The one child policy is only 30 years old.
Also it applies only to the city dwellers. The rurals can have more than one."
Your argument was about the 500-600 anchor babies born this way turning into an epidemic. How do rurals come into this picture?
"China growing economically? Not according to $SSEC index. It is down 60% from Oct '08. That is not the chart of a growing economy. That is a chart of an economy in post-bubble collapse."
Delude yourself all you want! I've been hearing this for a decade now. Tepid growth in the Chinese economy is eventually inconsistent with the HBD rule of high-IQ + free markets = prosperity.
http://www.businessinsider.com/shanghai-1990-vs-2010-2010-6
"I see contests for children, like MathCOUNTS -- started by White American engineers to encourage American kids (when MathCOUNTS started, "American" was virtually synonymous with White) -- at the Nationals level of competition, (that is, the elite kids who won the fun trip) now dominated 80-90% by Asians."
Hey, I'm a pretty conservative person who is in no way a fan of the multicult, but not all problems are someone else's fault. Its not Asians kids fault that their parents push their children towards more practical pursuits as opposed to the "discover your soul through poetry or creative writing" crap that most white Americans grow up with nowadays. We need to cut the special snowflake stuff, especially since the vast majority of people who are rather average. No one is stopping white kids from joining math counts, they just aren't interested in it. Whites aren't forced into liberal arts majors.
Curvaceous Carbon-based Life Form, are you worried about Asian chicks or something?
"Further, if Asians were barred from entering elite universities, they could create their own and make them as competitive (or more) than those that exist."
Yes, please, by all means, do so -- in Asia.
500-600 anchor babies is the thin edge of the wedge. These kids are likely to go elite schools and therefore become the Elite of gov't and in power to change the laws to enable utterly unfettered immigration from Asia, and also sufficiently wealthy to fund lots of one-way plane tickets.
I've seen too much Asian solidarity/supremacy/entitlement/
hostility to us to believe these kids will refrain from the above.
Please. Your attempt to pooh-pooh these rational worries -- and insult me at the same time -- is an old trick, long since worn threadbare by prior groups of immigrants whose descendants' behavior have caused White Americans to rue the fact their grampas were ever let in. Some of us have wised up to the scam, already.
"HBD rule of high-IQ + free markets = prosperity."
Hm. Well, a cold-eyed look at the facts shows:
SSEC is very nearly the same level as 10 years ago. (2200-2500) The Chinese boom of 2000-2010 looks to be following the same meteoric rise and crash with subsequent longterm stagnation as Japan in the 80s and 90s.
"Its not Asians kids fault"
No, of course it's not the kids' fault. But it IS the fault of anti-White elites that the Asians are in America. They should be having their own contests in Asia, funded by Asians.
MathCOUNTS has 200,000 White kids participate every year. Yet 80-90 percent of the kids that get the fun trip to Nationals are Asian.
Nationals takes only 4 kids from each state to Nationals. So there's a whole lot of White kids who were very, very close in big states like CA, but did not get the trip. If Asian kids whose parents are here on H1B visas were NOT here, it would be White kids getting that trip.
Who knows how many really, really smart White kids are discouraged from persuing math as a career because they were thisclose to getting that trip but lost out to an Asian kid here because of Asian parent's H1B?
I'm pro-White American. I want to see White American young people get the goodies as was intended when White people built America.
"Curvaceous Carbon-based Life Form, are you worried about Asian chicks or something?'
Of course.
Not because I think they are in competition with me for my husband, as you seem to snidely be implying, but because they are in competition with my mathematically gifted White son for aducational and employment prospects. I'm worried about Asian boys, too, for the same reason.
"the same meteoric rise and crash with subsequent longterm stagnation as Japan in the 80s and 90s."
But China's per capita income is a small fraction of what Japan's was in the 1980s.
Anyway, I can understand your being worried about your son, but I really have no sympathy for those who can't hack it when the competition's tough.
Get over the whining and deal with it!
CCBLF,
Worrying that your son can't hack it in a math program because of Asians is just severely pathetic.
""Further, if Asians were barred from entering elite universities, they could create their own and make them as competitive (or more) than those that exist."
Yes, please, by all means, do so -- in Asia."
Exactly,If they're so smart,let them create their own great country.Why do they need us?
"Exactly,If they're so smart,let them create their own great country.Why do they need us?"
They are and they will.
About their universities, as any grad school student in a top US university would know - Tsinghua and Peking are fantastic universities and their best can hold their own against the best anywhere.
But the kids we're talking about are American citizens.
Also, CCLF, sorry about being snide, but most Asian parents wouldn't wring their hands all of the HBD blogosphere whining about competition within - they'd probably sit with their kids and drill some Math into their heads instead. Therein lies the difference - CCLF wants the grand prize, but won't work for it.
"they'd probably sit with their kids and drill some Math into their heads instead. Therein lies the difference - CCLF wants the grand prize, but won't work for it."
Hm. My son is a 9th grader, just took the calc AB/BC AP exam, scored a 5.
BUT, he's a male, White, red-stater. He's severely discriminated against by the elite schools that were supposed to be built for exactly the kinds of kids that he is:
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/19/opinion/19douthat.html?_r=2&src=me&ref=homepage
http://mangans.blogspot.com/2010/07/anti-white-racism-of-hostile-elite.html#comments
My son won the MathCOUNTS trip. You know why? Because the red states are not so overwhelmingly populated by Asians. But, nonetheless, his teammates were all Asians whose parents were H1B visa lecturers at the state university.
-- MathCOUNTS was designed to be a source of friends for mathematically gifted kids. My son loves math, craves it like other kids crave ice cream. He thought, surely, at Nationals he'd meet some other kids who like math, too. You know what? Those pushed Asian kids on his team HATED math. Whined when it was time to practice for the competition.
Somehow I'm not surprised that no one has sympathy for MY kid, yet I'm supposed to be all bleeding-heart for the fate of Asian anchor babies. FTS.
Curvaceous said:
they are in competition with my mathematically gifted White son for aducational and employment prospects.
Many Mathematically inclined young men have a thing for Asian girls. I think your son would accept competition if it meant the Chinese/Japanese/Korean girls stayed around.
Just sayin'
Anyway, I can understand your being worried about your son, but I really have no sympathy for those who can't hack it when the competition's tough.
Hahaha. Honkeys done wrong to the whole world, that's not "competition," that's colonialism. Chinese have a poor country and flee, it's not that they "can't hack it," it's competition! China sucks, America's better, that's not competition. No, our elite selling us out (and China's elite not selling their people out), that's competition.
Tell, me, how does a skewed playing field (America open to China, China closed to America) sit with your competition-loving self?
"I think your son would accept competition if it meant the Chinese/Japanese/Korean girls stayed around."
I think not.
All usage of the term "whining" is an attempt to stifle debate. You can call me a "whiner" if you want ... or debate me.
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