Farhad Manjoo in Slate gingerly considers why blacks play such a large role on Twitter in pushing certain "hashtags" to popularity in How Black People Use Twitter:
Instead, the ones that seem to hit big are those that comment on race, love, sex, and stereotypes about black culture. Many read like Jeff Foxworthy's "You might be a redneck …" routine applied to black people—for instance, last December's #ifsantawasblack (among the tamer contributions: "#ifsantawasblack he wouldnt say ho ho ho, he would say yo yo yo") or July's #ghettobabynames (e.g., "#ghettobabynames Weavequisha.") The bigger reason why the Dozens theory isn't a silver bullet is that a lot of people of all races insult one another online generally, and on Twitter specifically. We don't usually see those trends hit the top spot. Why do only black people's tweets get popular? ...
Now for the caveats. There is an obvious problem with talking about how black people use Twitter, as many of the black Twitter users I spoke to took pains to point out: Not all black people on the service are participating in these hashtags, and there are probably a great many who are indifferent to or actively dislike the tags. "It's the same issue I have with certain black comedy shows," says Elon James White, a comedian who runs the site This Week in Blackness. "They put out these ideas of blackness that—if it were someone of another race saying them—you'd go, 'Whoa, that's racist!'" ...
Given that these hashtags are occurring in a subgroup of black people online, it is probably a mistake to take them as representative of anything larger about black culture. "For people who aren't on the inside, it's sort of an inside look at a slice of the black American modes of thought," says Jonathan Pitts-Wiley, also a former writer at The Root. "I want to be particular about that—it's just a slice of it. Unfortunately, it may be a slice that confirms what many people already think they know about black culture."
Whenever I read the conventional wisdom about how the solution for black misery is to send black youth a bunch of Teach for America Ivy Leaguers so that the immiserated black youth of America can learn "middle class" (i.e., white) culture, I have to wonder about the basic premises behind this widespread white assumption.
For one thing, how much do blacks want to act white?
For one thing, how much do blacks want to act white?
As far as I can tell, blacks, on the whole, have a blast being black.
They not only like being black, they like to talk about being black with other blacks. They have one of the more homogeneous cultures in the world, in part because they are constantly discussing being black with each other.
The assumption that black students will look at their workaholic white Teach for America teacher and say, "Man, that's the life for me!" seems a tad naive.
The reigning theory is that white culture will rub off on blacks by osmosis, but there is precious little evidence to back it up. Indeed, exposure to white people just makes blacks focus more on their blackness.
I've had this discussion with New Zealand professor James Flynn (of The Flynn Effect), who provides the conventional wisdom with whatever social science heft it has. If, like Flynn, you really want to change the environment for blacks enough to raise their IQ scores, well, then, you would have to make them embarrassed about acting black. You would have to make them want to compete for the regard of white people by acting white, the way Berry Gordy had his Motown stars, like The Supremes, take lessons in proper decorum.
And, these days, which whites, exactly, are volunteering for the job of making blacks feel ashamed that they aren't acting white? How much prestige and social approval would you receive for taking on that onerous task?
Instead of blacks competing for white approval, whites today compete with each other over how much they approve of blacks.
Not surprisingly, that doesn't do much to improve black behavior.
They not only like being black, they like to talk about being black with other blacks. They have one of the more homogeneous cultures in the world, in part because they are constantly discussing being black with each other.
The assumption that black students will look at their workaholic white Teach for America teacher and say, "Man, that's the life for me!" seems a tad naive.
The reigning theory is that white culture will rub off on blacks by osmosis, but there is precious little evidence to back it up. Indeed, exposure to white people just makes blacks focus more on their blackness.
I've had this discussion with New Zealand professor James Flynn (of The Flynn Effect), who provides the conventional wisdom with whatever social science heft it has. If, like Flynn, you really want to change the environment for blacks enough to raise their IQ scores, well, then, you would have to make them embarrassed about acting black. You would have to make them want to compete for the regard of white people by acting white, the way Berry Gordy had his Motown stars, like The Supremes, take lessons in proper decorum.
And, these days, which whites, exactly, are volunteering for the job of making blacks feel ashamed that they aren't acting white? How much prestige and social approval would you receive for taking on that onerous task?
Instead of blacks competing for white approval, whites today compete with each other over how much they approve of blacks.
Not surprisingly, that doesn't do much to improve black behavior.
Posts
107 comments:
Yeah. There should be a movie about an idealistic young white teacher's college grad whose first job is in an inner-city school who -- instead of trying to fight teen pregnancy, drug use, gang involvement, hostility to learning anything, etc. -- embraces 'thug life'. That would be uplifting.
Well said, Steve.
Young American blacks have devolved into little more than walking, talking caricatures of themselves by making such a pronounced effort to "out-black" each other - it's pretty surreal but also hysterical at times. I've never seen any group of people so oblivious to their constant, willing reinforcement of stereotypes.
Ummm, you're not getting it. Berry Gordy did not in any way "act white". The decorum you're pointing to is also part of black culture. You just don't know the culture well enough. If you want to go middle class, there is a tradition of black middle class and upper class decorum to appeal to.
They not only like being black, they like to talk about being black with other blacks. They have one of the more homogeneous cultures in the world, in part because they are constantly discussing being black with each other.
Indeed. When's the last time you saw on TV a black expert who wasn't there to give the "black" take on things? How often do you see blacks brought in to talk about something completel unrelated who don't mention their race?
Honest to goodness, sometimes entire months pass without me thinking to myself: "I'm white! I'm European-American! Isn't it awesome to be white and European American!"
And entire years pass without me ever passing a white guy on the street or at work and saying "Hey there, my white brutha!"
I have a hunch black grievance and general disrespect for common manners are genetic. Barack Obama wasn't even raised black and yet seems to enjoy disregarding protocol. He couldn't care less that he's disrespecting American sovereignty by bowing to foreign potentates (so long as they aren't white or Christian, of course). He seems to get off on it, in fact. His entire presidency has been one giant middle finger to America and its people.
And here's stuff about stuff black people don't like:
http://www.youtube.com/user/TheYoungTurks#p/search/65/RG0bmbzBnz4
See the whole thing - it's absurd. IQ scores jumping 20-30 points, etc.
It's funny when the black guy gets pissed about the movie (blind side) portraying how a black man needs the help of The Man to rise up - and then they talk about how Republicans should be cool about raising taxes. lol.
Mencius Moldbug wrote a thing about the five or sic characteristics of an aristocratic class, and how blacks match all but one, which is aristocrats generally have more money than non-aristocrats. I was looking for it a little while ago but couldn't find it.
H.L. Mencken said newspapermen led the life of kings, but now it's blacks.
The ghetto life is characterized by the "spurious aristocracy" that Tom Wolfe noted years ago: fine poses, obsession of trivial appearances, ostentatious displays of wealth, nicknames that are bestowed titles, etc.
There's an interesting story about black behavior or rather presumed black behavior unfolding today. This gay white male stewardess who pulled a Howard Beale is becoming an overnight folk hero. The commenters who post on the news sites seem to uniformly presume that the woman with whom he had the altercation is black.
As far as I know her race hasn't been revealed yet in the media so people are inferring blackness from her reported bad behavior.
The flight attendant is so gay he seems like a SNL caricature yet for all the supposed homophobia out there he is mostly treated with sympathy by those who express an opinion. The woman however is the object of real hatred and bitterness.
On today's evidence I would say that white America is very forgiving of gay acting out but quite short tempered over black people being black.
A couple years ago black movie actor Danny Glover had a public acting out incident over some slight from a cab driver. As I remember this began his fall from public favor. The white public seems to be ready to think the worst of blacks even if the media wants to show them in the most favorable light.
Albertosaurus
"Instead of blacks competing for white approval, whites today compete with each other over how much they approve of blacks.
Not surprisingly, that doesn't do much to improve black behavior."
It also put a dangerously inept mulatto in charge of the country.
@jack
You're kidding me right? Lack of common manners is genetic?
Please, if we are going to have a serious discussion, make a sensical argument. For example, I'd like to know how from your experience of being a white man one is raised black?
@poster
What consists of acting white and acting black? and since when and who defined the characteristics of acting black or acting white?
@camlost
What young american blacks do you speak of. Can you provide info and evidence of them constantly reinforcing stereotypes?
Mencius Moldbug wrote a thing about the five or sic characteristics of an aristocratic class, and how blacks match all but one, which is aristocrats generally have more money than non-aristocrats. I was looking for it a little while ago but couldn't find it.
It's quoted here.
Only when the full weight of their cultural rot is felt by the individuals will there be a sliver of hope of self-imposed change.
What really gives them a blast is in their publicly unspoken but understood manipulation of white society to subsidize them in all they do. Section 8, affirmative action, school lunches, free tuition, the list is just endless. They've found a way to get whites to support them, no more working for "the man". Check who is hanging around on the streets late at night in any city. None too worried about any schedule, or work, are they? They got the freedom to be themselves which turned out to be very different from that envisioned by the white do-gooders.
"If you want to go middle class, there is a tradition of black middle class and upper class decorum to appeal to."
So, when, exactly, can we expect the black middle class to finally do its duty and shame these fine young ghetto people into acting with middle and upper class black decorum?
When Bill Cosby tried it, he got roasted on a spit.
MQ said..."Ummm, you're not getting it. Berry Gordy did not in any way 'act white'. The decorum you're pointing to is also part of black culture. You just don't know the culture well enough. If you want to go middle class, there is a tradition of black middle class and upper class decorum to appeal to."
Steve didn't say he did. What he did said was, "You would have to make them want to compete for the regard of white people by acting white, the way Berry Gordy had his Motown stars, like The Supremes, take lessons in proper decorum."
And the decorum Steve is referring to is the decorum of white culture, which would make it possible for all-black groups to appear on national TV without whites complaining at a time when white culture was dominant and very homogenous.
I think most whites commenting here know there is a black middle- and upper-class culture with its own decorum. If nothing else, we've all seen Midnight in the Garden of Good and Evil, with its scene of Ssavannah's black upper-class having a formal dance.
Back to Remedial Reading for you!
You would have to make them want to compete for the regard of white people by acting white, the way Berry Gordy had his Motown stars, like The Supremes, take lessons in proper decorum.
You might even want a role model...say a famous family who has Alice Waters plant an organic garden at their home .. one that vacations at the Costa del Sol.
Young American blacks have devolved into little more than walking, talking caricatures of themselves by making such a pronounced effort to "out-black" each other - it's pretty surreal but also hysterical at times. I've never seen any group of people so oblivious to their constant, willing reinforcement of stereotypes.
I don't think they're all that oblivious. Isn't self-awareness the point of the Twitter exchange?
How self-aware are White People who attempt to out-Yankee each other? Do they tell jokes like..."you might be a Yankee if your idea of a good time is a teachable moment"
Long before Stuff White People Like existed, Mark Twain got many laughs over the superciliousness of "acting white." His favorite object of ridicule was that supreme example of whiteness, the Sunday School Superintendent:
"That's a good boy. Fine boy. Fine, manly little fellow. Two thousand verses is a great many -- very, very great many. And you never can be sorry for the trouble you took to learn them; for knowledge is worth more than anything there is in the world; it's what makes great men and good men; you'll be a great man and a good man yourself, some day, Thomas, and then you'll look back and say, It's all owing to the precious Sunday-school privileges of my boyhood -- it's all owing to my dear teachers that taught me to learn -- it's all owing to the good superintendent, who encouraged me, and watched over me, and gave me a beautiful Bible -- a splendid elegant Bible -- to keep and have it all for my own, always -- it's all owing to right bringing up!"
Ahhh...So I see my comment going against your post and the other commenters will be lost in moderation limbo.
"When's the last time you saw on TV a black expert who wasn't there to give the "black" take on things? How often do you see blacks brought in to talk about something completel unrelated who don't mention their race?"
Probably the last time I saw Charles Payne on Fox.
Hello Steve, gents,
here's my take on your post today:
http://theobsidianfiles.wordpress.com/2010/08/11/black-folk-twitter-acting-white/
Comment & reply, holla.
O.
Jack Aubrey said...
Honest to goodness, sometimes entire months pass without me thinking to myself: "I'm white! I'm European-American! Isn't it awesome to be white and European American!"
I would buy that if we weren't on a HBD blog. Nothing wrong with thinking that btw.
Barack Obama wasn't even raised black and yet seems to enjoy disregarding protocol.
Pretty sure every president post WWII had opponents on the other side of fence who thought he was 'disregarding protocol.'
Couple points:
1) Not only do blacks have a blast being black -- they actively sanction blacks who don't! What do you think the slur "Uncle Tom" is good for? Or "acting white"? Why was Bill Cosby accused by blacks of being "angry" and "out of touch"?
2) Let's not forget the MSM's place in this. We are constantly reminded and bombarded with all the reminders of what black culture allegedly brings to the table, while white culture/suburbia/high arts is down-played as being out of touch, boring and not "real".
-Varangy
Interesting because outside of the Internet and mainstream media, I don't hear any black people discussing being black.
Don't confuse Internet banter and media inanity with what happens in the real world.
The behavior of blacks is outrageous. The other day I read an article about Maxine Waters that mentioned the time she was partying and dancing with L.A. gangbangers. Incredible.
"a can learn "middle class" (i.e., white) culture,"
Why is this 'white culture'?
I agree sending white kids in to the inner cities isn't the solution, but I think it's more about resentment than that they don't want better lives.
I did the teaching thing, and I'm from a white working class background, but they refuse to acknowledge that, and I eventually gave up in frustration. But I met lots of potential nerds - smart kids - who end up losing out.
MQ: Ummm, you're not getting it. Berry Gordy did not in any way "act white". The decorum you're pointing to is also part of black culture. You just don't know the culture well enough. If you want to go middle class, there is a tradition of black middle class and upper class decorum to appeal to.
Right - they're called Black Republicans, and they're about 5% of the American Black population.
We're talking about the other 95%.
Jack Aubrey: Indeed. When's the last time you saw on TV a black expert who wasn't there to give the "black" take on things?
In fairness to the aforementioned 5% of American Blacks who act like human beings, the, ah, "folks" who run Hollyweird and the NYT and the SPLC are not in the bidness of giving on-air face-time [and free publicity] to the likes of Thomas Sowell, Walter Williams, or Clarence Thomas.
That's just not, ah, their bidness model.
In fact, they've spent much of the last three or four decades ridiculing civilized behavior in American Blacks.
Jack Aubrey: His entire presidency has been one giant middle finger to America and its people.
Spengler, at the Asia Times, tried to warn people about this [see e.g. here and here and here - in the third essay, Spengler picks up on some themes which originated with Steve Sailer].
And I'd like to re-emphasize a point which I was trying to make in the various recent Omar Thornton threads - Barry's ascension to the presidency has emboldened the worst of the hatemongers in that crowd, and they're on the warpath.
Blacks like the process of being black, but not its consequences. I've spent enough time around them to have noticed that when they refer to white neighborhoods as nice ones, etc., they frequently show signs of understanding what exactly makes them nice. The average true-believer leftist does not understand this, but the average black person does. Same with Africans' understanding of why African countries look the way they do.
Over the years I've heard lots of women say that they liked working with men more than with women because there's too much cattiness in female-dominated workplases. And yet every woman I've ever known, including every woman who's told me the above about female workplaces, thoroughly enjoyed being catty and looked sad whenever she was forced by circumstances or by moral considerations to act nice.
Liking the process, but not the consequences is very human.
I grew up in a largely black Washing DC neighborhood in the 1960s.
Black people today are MUCH "blacker" than when I was a kid.
In 1965...
- Black & white kids had the same names.
- We wore essentially the same clothes and had essentially the same hair styles.
- We watched the same movies & TV shows (granted, not as much choice then as now.)
- There was significant overlap in the music we liked.
- We followed the same sports (football, baseball, boxing)
In many ways, blacks & whites are farther apart today than they were in the days of segregation.
Interesting that he mentions a "black" woman from South Africa being in early on the Twitter trend. Her name (and the fact that she uses Twitter) make her highly atypical. Using her to generalise about anything is deeply flawed.
Slate has a column called "Bogus Trend of the Week" or something. I think Farhad should feature.
Jack Aubrey wrote of obama's disregard of common manners.
Need a better example than him publicly refusing to accept a letter handed to him by a governor, instead motioning that it be handed to an underling?
How about his wife pawing the Queen?
It's complicated. Back when the movie Precious was in the news, white liberals were nervously clucking how it threatened to confirm "racist" stereotypes. Yet this was a movie with an almost entirely ebony-hued assembly line- from source novelist, to director, to producer, to celebrity rain-maker (i.e. Oprah). Yet blacks would be naturally, and rightly, pissed if the truths about themselves in that movie were used to make generalizations in the broader culture- much like how the Jewish movie studio bosses squash any talk about "Jewish-run Hollywood". And I think this should be respected and understood. The civic ideal of America is that we are all equal citizens under the law. But that shouldn't force us to stop associating and communing with our kind- the whole point of which is to get updated-on and then indulge in stereotype-confirming behaviors. We all have different personas we adopt, and between the totally public citizen one and the totally private family one there can be several gradients in between.
I had this same thought,once,after seeing the young Mike Tyson interviewed--with the proper amount of submissive beta kowtowwing--Dick Cavett. Mike talked about his life "runnin the streets" and he admitted,gosh all,he LIKED the streets. I thiught,well,thank God for racism,cuz racism stopped Mike from going to school and getting a 9 to 5 job in an office;it allowed him to run around at all hours stealing,clobbering people,banging sluts,getting high and generally having a good time!
This can be seen in the entertainment choices of black America. Blacks LIKE broad, vulgar, "earthy" comedy- that is why Tyler Perry and Martin Lawrence became successful. I remember several years back when Whoopi Goldberg hosted the Oscars and introduced Robert Redford for the presentation of some kind of lifetime achievement award. She mentioned his creation of the Sundance Film Festival (a foundational act in the birth of SWPL America) and could literally not stop rolling her eyes talking about all the "great", "little", "quiet" films it had nurtured into existence. One could say her delivery was ironical except that eventually she just came out and said, "And who the hell wants to see that crap!"
Back when society had standards and was not afraid to enforce them Black America had so much more elegance, class, and enlightenment. Listening to old R&B, for example, I'm reminded that when Marvin Gaye sang about social issues he did not simply stop at the door of race ("Makes Me Wanna Holler") but even explored issues of environmentalism ("Mercy Mercy Me"). This ability to engage in impersonal, trans-racial political deliberation is light years ahead of the crude "Who? Whom?" attitude that has become the norm today among even the elites (e.g. Skip Gates, Michelle Obamas).
Do whites want to be black?
1/22/2009
Larry King: My Son Wishes He Was Black, "Black Is In"
Saturation acheived!
Down we go!
Michael Jackson
Tiger Woods
Barack Obama
Lebron James
Jesse Jackson
Charles Rangel
Maxine Waters
Naomi Campbell
Michelle Obama
Oprah Winfrey
As for the Oprah phenomenon, it's like a two-way street version of IMITATION OF LIFE redux. Through Oprah, black females get to feel refined, cultured, and dignified(LOL), in other words, kinda upper-crust-white; while white women get to feel soulful, natural, and charismatic, in other words, kinda mmm-mmm-mmm black. (And fat and/or ugly women get to feel special and empowered while good-looking women get to feel humble and egalitarian. Something for everyone.)
But the most ridiculous of all are 'black intellectuals'--mostly light-skinned and thin-skinned--like Cornel West and Michael Dyson who supposedly climbed the academic ladder by mastering the world of ideas but who make a big deal of the 'childlike'--as opposed to 'childish', West assure us--qualities of blacks. So, we have West, who teaches at Harvard, pontificating about the rap and sometimes turning on the black style during lectures for his self-aggrandizement and to electrify the white liberals who are grateful to be able to enjoy some black razzmatazz within their own dried and turgid world. (The whole liberal college mindset is like LILIES OF THE FIELD. Let's bring in a black scintillectual to liven things up a bit--have it rub off on us lame whiteys).
Of course, Dyson takes this to a whole new level. Here's a guy who's always yammering about Habermas and other Western intellectuals, but his real claim to fame is he's supposed to be the thinking man's prophet of hip hop.
But I suppose a variation of this exists within the white community too. George W. Bush was born with a giant silver spoon in his mouth, but as a politician he always acted like a 'good ole boy' than an elitist. If rich white boy Bush put on the populist act, we have Sarah Palin, who rose from humble beginnings, putting on expensive designer glasses and trying to talk like she's a THINKER on the grave issues around the world.
The best illustration of this idea:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BUS6nKpddec
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8S2miavR6js
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fBsE4ICwivA
"I aint got no flying shoes." Lol.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ne0RrK5qJ-k
What is the attraction of Black culture as it now exists (rap, gangsta) for White cube dwellers and young White women?
The movie Office Space captured that perfectly. Demasculinized, beta White guys with no status in the PC hierarchy adopt Black faux-masculine attributes (but only in fantasy) because say, liking Gangsta Rap is the only socially acceptable masculine behavior. White girls like rap because of the masculine stuff, the mirror image of emo-feminism (Fall Out Boy, etc.)
Why would a Black guy want to be a boring Beta White guy working in a cubicle, de-masculinized, neutered, made into a Eunuch? This is why a homeboy living with his mom, making less than a McDonald's worker, with far less probable payoff and far more risk, pulls more women, and hotter ones, than Joe Blue Collar worker. Because he carries a gun and is a bad, dangerous guy. "Mad, Bad, Dangerous to know" in Byron's words.
the vast majority of black academics, even outside fields like african american studies, focus on research that deals with african identity and experience.
Whiskey,
most of those homeboys end up in prison where they are soon engaged on the down low, minus women of course.
@greenriver
"I remember several years back when Whoopi Goldberg hosted the Oscars and introduced Robert Redford for the presentation of some kind of lifetime achievement award. She mentioned his creation of the Sundance Film Festival (a foundational act in the birth of SWPL America) and could literally not stop rolling her eyes talking about all the "great", "little", "quiet" films it had nurtured into existence. One could say her delivery was ironical except that eventually she just came out and said, "And who the hell wants to see that crap!"
You're so wrong. As I continue reading every comment on this post. I keep seeing inaccurate, and terrible assumptive statements. She was being ironic the WHOLE time. The point of whoopi's joke is that sundance started as a small film fest but grew so quickly into being a huge site for hollywood advertising. In fact, sundance is now used as a way to make or break movies before their full theatrical release. Maybe you should read before you post. Or if you're not a fan of reading, watch the entourage episode where they made fun of it.
She rolled her eyes at "great, little, quiet" because it's not little and is massive now. Check yourself before you wreck yourself man.
"This is why a (black)homeboy living with his mom, making less than a McDonald's worker, with far less probable payoff and far more risk, pulls more women, and hotter ones, than (white) Joe Blue Collar worker.
He's talking to YOU Kylie.
it's funny that black-folks believe that we live in a profoundly-racist society yet Mr. Sailer believes quite the opposite: that Whites everywhere are just going out the way to open doors for blacks!
qauestion for you Mr. Sailer--do u ever find yourself disposepre to help baclks?
"What is the attraction of Black culture as it now exists (rap, gangsta) for White cube dwellers and young White women?"
Two or three reasons. At the basic root, human emotions come down to power, sexuality, and territoriality(and indeed all three are related).
Like animals, males like to show off their power, grab turf, and get p___y. And women like to be won by top males with power and territory.
There are many smart ways a guy can succeed in life, make lots of money, buy nice cars and houses, and win(or buy)the hearts of many women. But this is a long arduous process and not immediately noticeable to the animal senses. In contrast,the power of a brute is evident there and then. The power of a geek can be formidable but not obvious. Mayor Bloomberg is a powerful man but animal power and magnetism don't exude from his very being. But this is true of rappers and athletes. Bloomberg seems to HAVE power whereas rappers and athletes seem to BE power.
Young people have hormones raging, and most of them aint too much into thinking. So, they are naturally attracted to displays of power and sexuality. Music is a potent means to express both power and sexuality. This is also true in the animal world. Aggressive animals howl when they fight and howl to call mates. There is martial music and there is seductive music. When young people listen to rap, they regard it as the music of the most badass powerful and sexiest folks in the world. Given blacks are both very good at sports and have musical rhythm and charisma, they are gonna be topdogs to more and more young folks out there. Even in Latin America and Asia, hiphop is very big. And even Mexicans who fight with blacks imitate blacks, not vice versa.
You'd think that since brains can do so much more than brawn to succeed in the modern world, most people would look up to geeks as the embodiments of power. And indeed it is true enough that many do envy and admire people like Bill Gates, Sergei Brin, and George Soros as big time heavy players.
But it just so happens that in a democracy, even the rich and powerful cannot push us around like they do in pre- or non-democratic societies; our rich often have to pander and cater to us.
In an authoritarian or repressive society, those with smarts can rise to the top and make themselves into gods. Stalin was a short guy but seen as a god by millions. He didn't even have the charisma of Hitler. And that pudgy clown in North Korea is one funny looking geek. But geeks with power can do just about whatever in non-democratic societies. They come to embody the very essence of POWER.
Oddly enough, in more oppressive and thuggish societies, brutes get less respect. Cuban athletes may be tough but they all must kiss Castro's ass. So, Cubans see their athletes as servants of the state ruled by GREAT MEN who are admired and seen as gods(if cynicism hasn't seeped into their consciousness already).
But in a democracy, where even lowlife brutes have rights and protection under the law, the powerful and the rich(often geeks) can't have too much power over us--though they try to nab more through NWO manipulations.
Even the rich white folks in Bonfire of the Vanities were scared shitless of loud and poor black folks.
So, even as we see people like Bill Gates as very rich, we don't necessarily see them as very powerful.
And if brutes--tough guys and athletes--under an oppressive system better watch their steps(or else be dragged to a gulag), brutes in a free society can get away with a lot of stuff. Black athletes can act outrageous and not only get away with it but be hyped by the media which are always hungry for splashy tabloid news.
And if in an oppressive society, the people must suppress their individuality for the common or national good, in a free society like the US, the individual can promote himself as the baddest, toughest, jivest, and mofo-est dude that ever was--and get million dollar contracts in music or sports industry.
Notice blacks, though always tough, had acted less badass and mofo-ish in the past when US had been more oppressive.
So, it's funny. Modern society is supposed to be about RULE OF LAW and MERITOCRACY OF THE MIND, but our laws have also protected the dumb brutes from the machinations of those with brains.
The brains of Cuba still control the brutes of Cuba. The brutes of America are protected by laws, same as everyone else. And if they have talent for entertainmetn or sports, the brains--lawyers, agents, managers, etc--will compete like sharks to work for them.
Jack Aubrey said...[Barack Obama's] entire presidency has been one giant middle finger to America and its people.
And being the childish, passive-aggressive guy that he is, he gives the finger subtly, so that he can maintain deniability--while scratching his nose or brushing dust off his jacket.
Paul Mendez said... There was significant overlap in the music we liked.
This is striking to an extent I don't think my children can understand. In the 1960s rock and pop music were on AM radio and the same station that played the Beatles or Beach Boys would also play James Brown, Wilson Pickett, he Four Tops, the Supremes, etc.
Summer with Monika said...But the most ridiculous of all are 'black intellectuals'--mostly light-skinned and thin-skinned--like Cornel West and Michael Dyson. . . West, who teaches at Harvard. . .
In 2001, while president of Harvard, Larry Summers got rid of West for his lack of academic credibility. Princeton snapped him up.
Albertosaurus,
Do you have links?
Truth said...[quoting Whiskey]"'This is why a (black)homeboy living with his mom, making less than a McDonald's worker, with far less probable payoff and far more risk, pulls more women, and hotter ones, than (white) Joe Blue Collar worker.'
He's talking to YOU Kylie."
He is? I don't recognize myself in any of those descriptions. I'm just a smalltown housewife.
But I'm flattered you read that and thought of me, Truth.
This is why a (black)homeboy living with his mom, making less than a McDonald's worker, with far less probable payoff and far more risk, pulls more women, and hotter ones, than (white) Joe Blue Collar worker
Without even looking, I knew this comment was made by Whiskey!
"Mencius Moldbug wrote a thing about the five or sic characteristics of an aristocratic class, and how blacks match all but one, which is aristocrats generally have more money than non-aristocrats."
That's generally of the highest and lowest classes in traditional European society. The sans-colottes have nothing to lose from bad behaviour and little to gain from good behaviour, while the aristos are never punished. It's mostly the middle class and upper working class) who benefit from keeping to the straight and narrow.
"You're kidding me right? Lack of common manners is genetic?"
Common manners are instilled out of fear, respect or a sense of co-operation for the greater good.
Different cultures place higher or lower emphasis on manners, so yes it probably is partly genetic, as those with bad 'manners' were either suppressed or encouraged, depending on the culture.
If this story pans out, its going to be in the national consciousness in the next few days:
http://www.dispatch.com/live/content/national_world/stories/2010/08/07/White-attacker-stabbing-black-men-police-say.html?sid=101&print=yes
Police say a white guy is stabbing black men (13 of them so far), and he has killed five in seperate states (Ohio and West Virginia were two of them). He's described as a muscular young white male.
That will end up stirring up black-white contention if it pans out and the media runs with it. We will have all sorts of "teachable moments". I bet we dont make use of them though, as we wasted our last teachable moment in Conneticut and just reinforced the same old baloney.
The article mentioned, ""Twitter works very naturally with that call-and-response tradition—it's so short, so economical, and you get an instant signal validating the quality of your contribution." (If people like what you say, they retweet it.)"
That makes sense because blacks are very me-oriented. The twitter groups they get into are a very rewarding a rewarding feedback loop for them. I have seen where this black guy will post something like, "EGGS Scrambled or Fried??" and he will get 50 responses in an hour. I don't weigh in, 1 because I don't give about what other people think about such an idiotic topic and 2 because I know that my opinion on the matter is just as unimportant as anyone's. Blacks, who are me-oriented, certainly think that their response does matter in some way or at least just like to share what they think. If you don't believe that blacks are me-oriented and highly feedback driven, just watch what happens next.
Anon -- It depends on where you're at. When I was in New Orleans, one of the Neville family (the black sheep) was killed, he'd been shot in seven prior occasions IIRC, and the usual New Orleans Jury Nullification had not led to any significant jail time. The last and final time he was shot was by a shotgun.
This was by no means unusual -- New Orleans street guys boasted in the local rag (Times Picayune) how many times they'd been shot (by 9mms). And New Orleans juries are still notorious for refusing to convict most criminals.
Thugging it up is by no means limited to Black Americans in the Ghetto. Theodore Dalrymple observed the changes from his childhood as a poor White British East Ender in the 1950's to today's culture, and how thugging it up snags women, often hot ones, often multiple ones. When provider status is irrelevant, because women have their own income/status, that's generally the way things work out.
To tie into Steve's prior post, much of European history post "Medieval Industrial revolution" has been provider status (tied to industries like wool aka White gold or paper making or china) reinforcing "virtuous circle" technological advancement, in contrast to stagnating China/Japan of the period, or the ME, or India, or Africa. We probably are not wide/deep enough now to push technological advance because of sexual selection.
Holla said: "I don't weigh in, 1 because I don't give about what other people think about such an idiotic topic and 2 because I know that my opinion on the matter is just as unimportant as anyone's."
But you post comments on blogs.
"He is? I don't recognize myself in any of those descriptions. I'm just a smalltown house"
Maybe, but Whiskey KNOWS what you are thinking when you pester hubby to bring home a Ving Rhames movie!
Whiskey said: "... thugging it up snags women, often hot ones, often multiple ones. When provider status is irrelevant, because women have their own income/status, that's generally the way things work out."
But wouldn't provider status still be relevant as many women, though they have the ability to earn their own income, would rather let a man support them? Think trophy wives.
"When's the last time you saw on TV a black expert who wasn't there to give the "black" take on things? How often do you see blacks brought in to talk about something completel unrelated who don't mention their race?"
Payne yes, and the last time I saw Thomas Sowell--on Fox, btw.
Saint Louis,
True, but the subject matter here ain't scrambled eggs. I gain insights from this blog and get to discuss subjects that are normally off limits with a group that by and large has intelligent commentary. I try not to throw out comments that are just, "over easy, holla". I often read comment sections and don't weigh in, something blacks probably do less. A lot of these hash deals are just really dumb, but everybody gets to play.
"Hello Steve, gents,"
??? there's women here too ya rude dude!
So, we have West, who teaches at Harvard, pontificating about the rap and sometimes turning on the black style during lectures for his self-aggrandizement and to electrify the white liberals who are grateful to be able to enjoy some black razzmatazz within their own dried and turgid world. . . . (Let's bring in a black scintillectual to liven things up a bit--have it rub off on us lame whiteys).
Thanks for the great portmanteau word "scintillectual," which I shall have to find an opportunity to use in the future.
When I was a student at Princeton I once sat in on one of West's lectures, just to see what all the fuss was about. (This was back in the days when he was at Princeton for the first time, before his Harvard interlude.) It wasn't a bad lecture in terms of content, but the delivery was, as you say, razzmatazz designed for a white audience. And most of the people there were clearly enjoying being pandered to -- without, of course, realizing how condescending they were being. In the end it struck me as a degrading exercise for everyone involved.
Back when society had standards and was not afraid to enforce them Black America had so much more elegance, class, and enlightenment.
We don't enforce standards. Enforcing standards is hard. We can pat ourselves on the back about our supposed "tolerance," but really it's so much easier to be non-judgmental, especially since we ourselves can enjoy the lack of standards from time to time.
America doesn't do the hard things anymore. We don't enforce social standards, we don't judge people, we don't balance the budget (our government's or our own), we don't enforce our immigration laws, and we don't win wars.
What was the last major war that we won? World War II. But the leaders of that war were mean. They instituted mandatory male conscription, wage freezes and rationing. They had segregated military units. They sent 400,000 young Americans to their deaths. They firebombed entire cities. They interned thousands of members of an ethnic minority. Then to top it all off they dropped atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
And - it's a very minor point, I know - but they WON.
It would be much better to not do anything of those things and lose, as we've done ever since in Korea, Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan.
The world is not a place where every major problem can be solved by refusing to judge, respecting civil rights, and giving everyone their day (or, more likely, dozens of them) in court. We knew that, once. We won wars, we enforced our immigration laws, we upheld social standards.
We're a soft people now. Technology and wealth have made us that way.
Once a country can no longer do the big, difficult things it's just circling the drain.
Barry's ascension to the presidency has emboldened the worst of the hatemongers in that crowd, and they're on the warpath.
Interesting observation, and I have to wonder if that's related to all the allegations of Tea Party racism. Blacks had just barely gained serious power when suddenly vigorous opposition to Obambi surfaces.
Payne yes, and the last time I saw Thomas Sowell--on Fox, btw.
True, yet Sowell and Payne types represent a tiny fraction of the black populace and an even smaller fraction of black intellectuals. In the vast majority of cases they either talk about blackness or it's clearly dominating their thoughts.
And being the childish, passive-aggressive guy that he is, he gives the finger subtly, so that he can maintain deniability--while scratching his nose or brushing dust off his jacket.
To him it's subtle and clever. To the rest of us it's idiotic and, as you said, childish.
Hmm, I'm usually broadly sympathetic to the world-view of this site, but... I dunno about a lot of these comments.
Every ethnic and racial group needs (and cultivates) a bit of private psychological space, where they can retreat and "take a vacation" from the complexities and stressors of a diverse society. Black folks have their various private cultural gardens; white folks do, too -- e.g. they go to see Jane Austen film adaptations where everyone's white so they can turn off their racial-sensitivity radar and relax for a few damn hours.
My family background is mostly Irish. I know perfectly well that Irish traditional music is kind of simple-minded compared to lots of other folk music traditions, but often I go to hear it anyway: partly as a vacation from city life, and partly because I hear micro-details and sympathetic associations in it that other ethnicities wouldn't bother to detect.
(Similarly I don't blame other folks for reading shallow-but-relaxing ethnic-wank literature when both they and I know that a single page of Myles or Frank O'Connor can outclass whole books by these writers; that's not the point of indulging in it, dammit!)
Everybody does this, in some manner or another -- or at least they should. It's good for mental health.
Oh, and btw, I know plenty of well-bred black folks from what you'd term, say, sub-middle class backgrounds, whose sense of manners, decorum, and social poise are outstanding, and generally much superior to this working-class-turned-Ivy League mick.
To each their strengths and weaknesses, properly understood; symbiosis can't do everything, but it does do some interesting things. I like the formulation put by Langston Hughes: "Bessie, bop, or Bach." We can have all three, and lots more besides. The trick is in the balance.
Truth said..."Whiskey KNOWS what you are thinking when you pester hubby to bring home a Ving Rhames movie!"
And I bet I know what Whiskey is thinking, too:
"Ving Rhames? So Jason Alexander is too beta for her? He's hot--he was in a hit TV show! He's made movies! He's bald--that shows he has lots of T! He's even buff now that he lost weight with Jennie Craig! Or Drew Carey! What about him? He lost weight, too! He's engaged! He can get women, that proves it!"
Anonymous said
If this story pans out, its going to be in the national consciousness in the next few days:
Some of his victims have been white. The pattern is probably due to the demographics of the area.
As far as I know her race hasn't been revealed yet in the media so people are inferring blackness from her reported bad behavior.
Sorta like how I feel confident that the people Rush was referring to yesterday in the "voucher riots" in ATL were black, even though I still haven't checked? It's more likely the story is cooked up (as I said, haven't checked it out), that there were no riots, than it is they were non-black.
You're kidding me right? Lack of common manners is genetic?
Nothing wrong with speculating that it's partly owed to genetics. E.g., one population has a trait that makes it more polite, and another population lacks it. Behavioral genetics aren't anything new. Aggression, empathy, time horizons, IQ, agreeableness, conscientiousness, neuroticism, extraversion...
And the decorum Steve is referring to is the decorum of white culture, which would make it possible for all-black groups to appear on national TV without whites complaining at a time when white culture was dominant and very homogeneous.
Rotgut will be along any moment now to tell us how these are the real blacks, who created the black "golden age."
Really, a lot of the finger-pointing here should be directed at the elite; when you have a problem child, you cause a lot of harm by giving him free reign and filling his head with nonsense.
When's the last time you saw on TV a black expert who wasn't there to give the "black" take on things?
Reminds me of "black firsts." These things get so absurd, so quickly. "Daddy was the first black principal at our school!" Who...gives...a...shit? "Daddy was the first from our family to become a principal!" << that's what I hear. If anything, it downgrades the accomplishment.
Honest to goodness, sometimes entire months pass without me thinking to myself: "I'm white! I'm European-American! Isn't it awesome to be white and European American!"
I would buy that if we weren't on a HBD blog. Nothing wrong with thinking that btw.
I agree, nothing wrong with thinking that. But you can believe what he says. I'm a full-blown ethnopatriot and I spend roughly zero time thinking that sort of thing. It's a substrate, it colors the rest of my thinking but it is categorically not something that takes up any of my forebrain's CPU cycles. My ethnopatriotism, at least, is very much defensive. I'd be doing something completely different, were there no need to man the barricades.
If this story pans out, its going to be in the national consciousness in the next few days:
http://www.dispatch.com/live/content/national_world/stories/2010/08/07/White-attacker-stabbing-black-men-police-say.html
HOLY COW - does this one have iSteve written all over it, or what?!?
Man arrested at Atlanta airport in stabbings spree
By Greg Bluestein And Corey Williams, Associated Press Writers
– 42 mins ago
news.yahoo.com
ATLANTA - A possible suspect in a string of 20 stabbings that terrorized people across three states and left five dead was arrested at an airport as he tried to board a plane for Israel, officials said Thursday...
He is an Israeli citizen who is in the U.S. legally, according to a law enforcement official who spoke on the condition of anonymity due to the ongoing investigation...
Police have said the man's attacks usually follow a pattern: He approaches black men late at night on lonely urban roads, and asks for directions or help with a broken-down car. Then, without warning, he pulls out a knife and strikes. Then, he speeds away in his vehicle, leaving them for dead...
They sent 400,000 young Americans to their deaths. They firebombed entire cities. They interned thousands of members of an ethnic minority. Then to top it all off they dropped atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
Jack Aubrey and Whiskey sure know how to drive away the chicks, their comments read like rambling entries in a psychopath's diary.
Twoof sez,
"He's talking to YOU Kylie."
"Maybe, but Whiskey KNOWS what you are thinking when you pester hubby to bring home a Ving Rhames movie!"
What exactly does this guy contribute? Did he make a major donation to you during your fundraiser or are you just trying to annoy people who actually give you money with him?
Heck of a plan, if the latter.
@ Whiskey: "Mad, bad, and dangerous to know" are the words of Lady Caroline Lamb, spoken about Byron.
"Different cultures place higher or lower emphasis on manners, so yes it probably is partly genetic, as those with bad 'manners' were either suppressed or encouraged, depending on the culture. "
You killed you own argument. Did you read before you typed? Culture is learned not genetic.
"If this story pans out, its going to be in the national consciousness in the next few days:
http://www.dispatch.com/live/content/national_world/stories/2010/08/07/White-attacker-stabbing-black-men-police-say.html?sid=101&print=yes
Police say a white guy is stabbing black men (13 of them so far), and he has killed five in seperate states (Ohio and West Virginia were two of them). He's described as a muscular young white male."
And now they have a suspect in custody:
http://law.rightpundits.com/?p=2105
He is Elias Abuelazam, a Catholic Arab Israeli immigrant to the U.S.
I wonder how the media is going to play this one.
No one's mentioned that the essential black entitlement is to repeal logic. I don't mean in terms of thinking ability. What I mean is, if you say to an angry black person, "please calm down, you're scaring me," they then get further in your face and threaten physical violence. One guy says to me, "Oh, you're scared of me huh, well how about this, you scared now?"
"Hmm, I'm usually broadly sympathetic to the world-view of this site, but... I dunno about a lot of these comments."
I know what you mean. Same here. For me the dissonance came when I read the inevitable comment about "catty" women in the workplace. I guess living in D.C. I am au courant on the long, massive history of (historically) male subterfuge in the workplace, and however much comradarie they may show, I rarely take an ambitious guy at his word. They can be two-faced too; the world just calls it "shrewd" or some other darkly complimentary word. Men are no better to each other than women; but it's a game, or a battle for them, that is acknowledged and has some rules. But as I've learned from watching the Sopranos, the rules don't always mean anything.
In any case, I am wary of those who reduce the panorama of human behavior and possibility to a scenario that feed their own insecurities.
That's why, although I believe in hbd, I am careful not to assume that blacks secretly dislike each other and that they prefer white behavior. I can accept that they basically prefer one another but have been "enabled" in much behavior.
When whites seem to "get off" on blacks cutting up other blacks, it gives me a creepy feeling and I understand where blacks coming from in their attitudes. In fact, I have never enjoyed (well, almost never) hearing men disparage other men for their gender. Both genders (and all races) have their faults and strengths.
Blacks did not evolve in the kinds of societies that require complex, abstract thinking and that is the society in which they are being forced to live now. Few breaks are being placed on their bad behavior, but that is fixable and in the future, when we will have passed through this politically correct nonsense, it will be addressed, some of it by blacks themselves, and of course by other races weary of being victimized and forced to subsidize them.
If you spend any significant time around black people under 40 is that it's considered shameful or embarassing to actually pay for anything. They're accustomed to freebies in almost everything. For example, two springs back I was walking behind two 20-something as they were on their back into the Cal track stadium during the West Coast Relays. With a sardonic smirk on his face, one says to the other, "did you pay?" All indignantly, the other guy assures him he didn't. Then a few weeks ago on the S.F. #29 bus, the asian driver made a young black woman pay full fare, and she immeidately gets on her cell to tell her friend about the "asshole" bus driver.
You killed you own argument. Did you read before you typed? Culture is learned not genetic.
Race is the soil of culture. Cultures will tend over time to reflect racial predispositions.
You new to this?
He is Elias Abuelazam, a Catholic Arab Israeli immigrant to the U.S.
Holy....!
What I mean is, if you say to an angry black person, "please calm down, you're scaring me," they then get further in your face and threaten physical violence. One guy says to me, "Oh, you're scared of me huh, well how about this, you scared now?"
Er, when a person starts acting up like that, get ready to start fighting. You don't have to say anything.
"Some of his victims have been white. The pattern is probably due to the demographics of the area."
Yeah, and Thornton's patter was probably due to the demographics on the loading dock.
"What exactly does this guy contribute? Did he make a major donation to you during your fundraiser or are you just trying to annoy people who actually give you money with him?"
Yo, don't have a heart attack there, Vladamir, your people are dying out there fast enough already.
I have a good idea for you , why don't you and Boris take your American Comrades Barack and Pelosi out for a cup of borscht and a Smirnoff, you can compare hammer and sickle tattoos.
"Oh, you're scared of me huh, well how about this, you scared now?"
I don't know if you intentionally meant to drop the helping verb before "you" or after it; either way, good ebonics, B+ easily (for consistency's sake, you should have dropped the first contraction in "you're") Believe it or not, consistency is a hallmark of fluent ebonics.
Most of you guys who try to write "black" take it way over the top.
Escarondito said...
...
You killed you own argument. Did you read before you typed? Culture is learned not genetic.
----
How cute.
As svigor noticed, you must be *really new * at thinking in biological terms. Toughen up a bit and stick around. Not every topic or comment is worth it, but you will learn a few things.
Jack Aubrey and Whiskey sure know how to drive away the chicks, their comments read like rambling entries in a psychopath's diary.
That, or the history of the United States, 1941-1945.
When whites seem to "get off" on blacks cutting up other blacks, it gives me a creepy feeling and I understand where blacks coming from in their attitudes.
No one really "gets off" on racial disparity. Hell, I wish the races were equal. I wish blacks and Hispanics were less crime-prone. There would be more neighborhoods I could live in, more neighborhoods I wouldn't have to fear driving through, fewer murders, fewer reasons to fear for my children's safety, and - get this - our governments might actually spend less money.
What you interpret as 'getting off' is actually exasperation. It is also maybe the faint hope that the latest story will bring the rest of the country to its senses on the issue of race.
Anonymous said..."Jack Aubrey and Whiskey sure know how to drive away the chicks, their comments read like rambling entries in a psychopath's diary."
Right, the chicks would be flocking here to talk HBD with a bunch of guys who post as "Anonymous", if it weren't for Jack and Whiskey's psycho ramblings.
Meanwhile, back in the real world, I find Jack's remarks always worthwhile and think Whiskey has some good points. You, on the other hand, represent a new low in the quality of comments posted here.
"Meanwhile, back in the real world, I find Jack's remarks always worthwhile and think Whiskey has some good points. You, on the other hand, represent a new low in the quality of comments posted here."
Kylie, I'm sure there are females who read this blog even if they don't post so that comment isn't totally off-base. Whiskey does not have good points, all he does is blame young white women for every single societal ill, which we all know is bull. He never stops beating that dead horse either.
"My family background is mostly Irish. I know perfectly well that Irish traditional music is kind of simple-minded compared to lots of other folk music traditions, but often I go to hear it anyway:"
How is traditional Irish music simple-minded compared to other folk music? Give me an example of more "complex" folk music. Just curious.
Thrasymachus asked about Mencius' play on Commoners and Nobles (I think):
Mencius Moldbug wrote a thing about the five or sic characteristics of an aristocratic class, and how blacks match all but one, which is aristocrats generally have more money than non-aristocrats. I was looking for it a little while ago but couldn't find it.
I thought that was great too and saved the link. That portions begins about a quarter of the way down the page at this link:
http://unqualified-reservations.blogspot.com/2009/01/gentle-introduction-to-unqualified_22.html
Bama Girl said..."Kylie, I'm sure there are females who read this blog even if they don't post so that comment isn't totally off-base."
Non-chick females, yes; females who'd be considered chicks, no. I seriously doubt any "chicks" are reading this or any other HBD blog.
And..."Whiskey does not have good points, all he does is blame young white women for every single societal ill..."
He actually does slip good points into his misogynistic ramblings. And no, blaming white women is not all he does, 99%of what he does maybe, but not all.
OK, now you've got me wondering. Would someone who has the word "girl" in her username be considered a "chick"?
They not only like being black, they like to talk about being black with other blacks. They have one of the more homogeneous cultures in the world, in part because they are constantly discussing being black with each other.
That suggests a rather incredible level of egotism, or insecurity, or possibly both.
"They have one of the more homogeneous cultures in the world, in part because they are constantly discussing being black with each other."
Um...yeah...totally unlike the average isteve poster.
Of course black people like being black!
Black people have a suicide rate lower than whites (I know you love stats) which implies suicide has positive correlation with status.
Look at any rap video. It doesn't seem they are disappointed they're not in a country club.
One thing you guys always overlook is black people make the best of whatever situation, whether thats discrimination or shoddy living conditions. White people try to change their conditions.
If white people want to go to Marin (SWPL kind of town), they get frustrated and buy a boat. If they really want to get to Marin, they build an expensive bridge. Black people are content to stay on one side of the water, since you know, they can't swim.
I think the book "Flow" the author says people that "take things as they are", are happier than people that try to change and improve their surroundings. Of course "modern society" and progress are built by people (white people) that want to build something, but that doesn't equate to happiness.
Um...yeah...totally unlike the average isteve poster.
Don't be petty.
"Race is the soil of culture. Cultures will tend over time to reflect racial predispositions."
I bet you can't provide a shred of scientific evidence for this assertion.
Give me one example of a cultural trait that changed over time because of a genetic predisposition of a human population.
"You new to this?"
He means to this particular brand of just-so storytelling.
"Give me one example of a cultural trait that changed over time because of a genetic predisposition of a human population."
Drinking cow milk in adulthood.
Euros couldn't do it thousands of years ago -- but as soon as the genetic change happened and became widespread that allowed lactose tolerance, they did.
Read The 10,000 Year Explosion by Cochran and Harpending.
"
Drinking cow milk in adulthood."
Okay - how about a behavioral trait. Something related to intelligence, or predisposition to commit crimes...
drinking milk is kinda boring compared to the sorts of things that are usually discussed around here...
"You killed you own argument. Did you read before you typed? Culture is learned not genetic."
Race is the soil of culture. Cultures will tend over time to reflect racial predispositions.
"I bet you can't provide a shred of scientific evidence for this assertion."
I can give you logical reasons to suppose, but no, no scientific evidence in hand. Difficult to get hard data for this stuff without a time machine, and I suspect you won't settle for less than perfect rigor. Well, you'll probably settle for less than perfect rigor for your belief in cultural determinism (correct me if I'm wrong), but not for something you don't want to hear.
"Give me one example of a cultural trait that changed over time because of a genetic predisposition of a human population."
American blacks and marriage. They were taken from Africa and had their culture largely uprooted and replaced. After emancipation, they were the marrying sort. Over time, they have reverted to African norms.
But I wasn't really talking about traits, I was talking about culture. Look at the world around you, the cultures reflect the groups in which they reside. That's why east Asia is so different from Africa. Not that peoples don't learn and add to their cultures, just that their cultures reflect their genetics. E.g., how do you add semiconductor foundries to your culture when no one in your group can figure them out? When the violent fraction of your group is too high to allow the wealth- and knowledge-building required to build and maintain them?
Okay - how about a behavioral trait.
Drinking milk isn't a behavior? Lactose tolerance almost certainly had wide-ranging impact on the wider culture, too. People who can extract more nutrients from their environment are more reproductively successful, which leads to lots of things (better warmaking, more people can pursue non-subsistence tasks, etc.).
>Give me one example of a cultural trait that changed over time because of a genetic predisposition of a human population.<
It's more to the point to observe what has remained unchanged.
"Black people like being black"
Yup. It isn't I buying that ticket to watch Soul Plane.
Steve ought to be aware of the fact that blacks as a group believe that that they need to assimilate "white blood" in order to rise as a "race." Why do you think that mulattoes are frequently presented as elite "blacks" or the words "beautiful black woman" are nearly always synonymous with biracial or mulatto? Why do you think Henry Louis Gates, Jr. has spent his career trying to claim as "black" predominately white people who wanted nothing to do with blacks and did not identify with them? During the congressional hearings on the "multiracial" census option, the NAACP practically said that blacks would be reduced to caveman status if mulattoes were allowed to "escape" from their "race."
"What you interpret as 'getting off' is actually exasperation. It is also maybe the faint hope that the latest story will bring the rest of the country to its senses on the issue of race."
Ok, good. I can see that and I feel that way too sometimes.
Okay - how about a behavioral trait. Something related to intelligence, or predisposition to commit crimes...
You don't think the Japanese behave differently from, oh, the Nigerians? Do you think they behave the same if they were both in, oh, California? Actually, that's something we could check out....
Steve you are an insightful mother-fucker.
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