August 6, 2010

Morris Dees' Poverty Palace

The Montgomery Advertiser has a 60-photo lifestyle spread on "The home of Morris Dees and Susan Starr in Montgomery, Ala." Mr. Dees is, of course, the founder of the Southern Poverty Law Center, and poverty has been very, very good to him, judging by the staggering amount of expensive bric-a-brac he and Ms. Starr have accumulated.

I'm not precisely sure what Morris' wife is wearing in this photo (Barbarella's coronation gown? Or, as a reader suggests, a shower curtain trimmed with fake fur?), but the caption reads "Susan Starr models a jacket she made in her studio at her home in Montgomery, Ala."

This shiny thing-a-mabob with the #20 on it is described as "A poolside rickshaw at the home of Morris Dees and Susan Starr in Montgomery, Ala," because nothing screams Equality! like a fancy rickshaw.

It would probably not occur to you to acquire what might possibly be a matador's outfit to hang next to the washstand in an office bathroom of your compound, but then you aren't the main man behind America's most lucrative poverty organization, now are you?

This white and beigeish picture is described as "Guest house living area at the home of Morris Dees and Susan Starr in Montgomery, Ala.," but the contents remain enigmatic. What exactly is on the coffee table? A nest of writhing snakes? A ton of old horseshoes? And what's that spherical object behind the fuzzy couch? A giant ball of twine?

And then there's this objet d'art. I wonder how much hate Morris had to spew and foment to get the donations to pour in to pay for that?

For some reason, the article accompanying the 60 pictures seems to have largely vanished, but it began:
Mediterranean living: Couple’s renovated showplace reflects owners’ world travels, varied tastes

It is hard to believe the home Susan Starr and Morris Dees purchased upon their marriage 11 years ago was once a very small cottage originally built in 1923.

Nah, by this point, I can believe anything about Morris.

75 comments:

  1. Needs more random arts and crafts shit affixed to the walls of various rooms.

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  2. Look at photos 24 and 26. Do these represent Mo's beliefs, or are they just anthropological decorations?

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  3. Chief Seattle8/6/10, 3:48 PM

    "nothing says Equality! like a fancy rickshaw." Classic.

    Here's a link I found searching for Morris Dees mansion. It links to the slide show:

    http://harpers.org/archive/2010/04/hbc-90006860

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  4. Nice trophy wife. The things money can buy.

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  5. Funny how we so rarely hear about Richard Cohen, the president and CEO of the SPLC, who apparently makes even more than Dees.

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  6. Dees has dedicated his life to fighting bigotry and ignorance, so I can see why you guys dislike him so much.

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  7. Harry Baldwin8/6/10, 5:11 PM

    Solicit money from gullible rich people who are frightened by pictures of good ole boys posing in camouflage gear with their rifles and adult victims of fetal alcohol syndrome wearing white hoods.

    Spend money on hideous sculptures and bric-a-brac that art dealers foist off on gullible rich people with no taste.

    It keeps the economy going, I guess.

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  8. There is a website called "Charity Navigator" that rates charities. Their system is very good and one of the major data points they use is the per annum salary of the CEO s and main managers. This ranges from $35,000 (Alley Cat Allies, 4 star charity) to a few hundred thousand. Some foundering charities are overloaded with fundraising gimics and "compensation" for the CEOs they can't possibly merit. SPLC is a two-star charity rating.
    Check it out. charitynavigator.org.
    Here's some info I lifted from the site: Richard Cohen President, CEO (The person identified as holding the highest position of management, and therefore who would normally be responsible for carrying out the mission of the charity and leading the organization on a day-to-day basis.) $299,842 0.97%
    Other Salaries of Note
    Morris Dees Co-Founder, Chief Trial Counsel (Using information reported on an organization's most recent Form 990, we include as compensation an individual's salary, cash bonuses, and expense accounts and other allowances. We do not include contributions to benefit plans or compensation deferred to a future date.) $293,411 0.95%
    Joseph Levin Co-Founder, General Counsel (Using information reported on an organization's most recent Form 990, we include as compensation an individual's salary, cash bonuses, and expense accounts and other allowances. We do not include contributions to benefit plans or compensation deferred to a future date.) $154,288 0.50%

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  9. Thanks, Chief Seattle, I went to the site and saw all 60 pictures. I had no idea the SPLC were like this but it doesn't surprise me. How they adore the elite lifestyle and like to parade it. Their taste is idealized 3rd-world, a rich man's Pier One. Nothing is traditional American or European style other than the pool.

    Great article, Steve.

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  10. Anonymous wrote:
    "Dees has dedicated his life to fighting bigotry and ignorance, so I can see why you guys dislike him so much."

    I feel that me commenting on this thread is like shooting fish in a barrel, so I will just stand here and point my finger at that remark.

    Yes, trolling has finally made it into isteve.

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  11. I wonder who's living in his basement, chained to the wall? Guess we'll just have to wait for that (inevitable) 911 call reporting a nude, intoxicated minor observed passed out on Dee's lawn.

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  12. This inane article proves that you aNOT obsessed rwith race but in stead have eclectic taste!!

    NOT RACED-OBSESSED!!!!

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  13. this is the most abjectly fucked-up "decorating" scheme that I have ever seen in my life. the rickshaw is the crowning touch.

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  14. Check it out. charitynavigator.org

    I did. Press frequently writes about "10 billion dollars porn industry'. Seems that the administrative expenses of the charity industry beat the entire porn by an order of magnitude.

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  15. Yes, that trophy is so.....blond.

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  16. "Doing well by doing good"

    Do Dees, Cohen and Levin have any commonsense? What are they doing not only letting the cat out of the bag but perversely dressing it in human baby clothes and parading it around town with a diamond encrusted collar and leash?

    Have the elites achieved so much leverage over the system that they no longer even have to feign shame or attempt to play along?

    * Timothy Geitner's the Treasury Secretary who is a known tax cheat and refuses to disclose prior year's records

    * John Kerry tax the rich pol of the people who evades tax on his yacht

    * Al Gore earth hugger activist and venture capitalists who owns opulent carbon wasting home palaces around the world.

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  17. Man, I am having zero luck on this thread in breaking though the glass ceiling and getting my remarks approved by Komment Kontrol.

    I reckon I'm just getting to be too much of an anti-you-know-what for polite company.

    Oh well, y'all need to appreciate the fact thatcha got published here.

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  18. Conservative8/6/10, 7:20 PM

    I think I need to change careers.

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  19. If only being gaudy were a crime

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  20. No pictures of the servants? I wonder what they get paid....

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  21. Morris Dees pays himself almost as much out of SPLC donations as Peter Brimelow pays himself out of VDare donations. Can we see some slides of Peter Brimelow's house?

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  22. I think the pile of snakes/horse shoes on the coffee table is a big rusty chain. Maybe they use it to imprison people in the cellar.

    If the poverty-law gig ever stops paying out they can rent the house out as a set for horror movies. They wouldn't have to change a thing.

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  23. What the hell is that thing in picture 39 ? That is one of the ugliest things I have ever seen. You would have to be disturbed to put that in your house.

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  24. Seems like the unemployed can make cushions...looks like you can never have too many.

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  25. Steve Sailer said..."What exactly is on the coffee table? A nest of writhing snakes? A ton of old horseshoes? And what's that spherical object behind the fuzzy couch? A giant ball of twine?"

    Those piquant conversation pieces look like a chain and a ball, the sort of implements that were formerly used in slavery or perhaps lynchings. The caption says they're in Mr. Dees's guest living area, which makes me wonder exactly what sort of guests he has.

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  26. Melykin said..."What the hell is that thing in picture 39?"

    I'm pretty sure it's a barnacle-encrusted golliwog.

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  27. She's wearing a shower curtain trimmed with fake fur for heaven's sake! Designed it herself, did she? Well, I'm sure the couturiers in NY, Paris and Milan are all shaking in their boots...

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  28. "Man, I am having zero luck on this thread in breaking though the glass ceiling and getting my remarks approved by Komment Kontrol.

    I reckon I'm just getting to be too much of an anti-you-know-what for polite company."

    Maybe Steve is tired of people posting as anonymous.

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  29. Off topic:

    This story and post by Matt is incredible. Taxpayers' money is being used to train people to do jobs in other countries and he does not care what effect it will have on American workers.

    I wish Dobbs was still on TV. He would be all over this use of government funds. Has anyone seen this covered in a major media outlet?



    http://yglesias.thinkprogress.org/2010/08/hard-to-avoid-boosting-outsourcing/#comments

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  30. "Dees has dedicated his life to fighting bigotry and ignorance, so I can see why you guys dislike him so much."

    It's looks like he really sacrificed.

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  31. OK when did Morris Dees and the Time start the SPLC?

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  32. I used to be on the board of a local charity, active since 1998. I can tell you the President took NO SALARY. In fact, every board member was expected to donate time and services or money. I personally donated thousands in my time and services.

    Most local charities are NOT like SPLC.

    Briefly, during expansion, we did have a professional Executive Director, whose job it was to raise money from grants/etc. and manage the program (we were hoping to expand) but when the economy crashed we could not afford him and let him go, went with a lower-cost part-time person.

    What's reasonable for a charity's expense? Phone, internet, website expenses, for sure. Those should add up to less than 4% of annual expenditures. Office and staff will probably run you about another 15% or so, depending on the program (such as say, college prep work for poor kids, or teen mom homeless shelters, that sort of thing). You can run a lot off a living room table and the charity I was involved in has NEVER had an office or lease.

    DIRECT program expenditures should be between 75-90% of any program. Yeah, you'll have to have some people to raise money, coordinate volunteers, generate newsletters and publicity, write grants, but much of that can be done part-time as contract labor, with some combination of volunteers.

    You can run a lot however with an annual budget of around 80K.

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  33. "Mediterranean living: Couple’s renovated showplace reflects owners’ world travels, varied tastes"

    Apparently "varied tastes" is Newspeak for "bad taste".

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  34. "Dees has dedicated his life to fighting bigotry and ignorance, so I can see why you guys dislike him so much."

    Haha. Anyone who could type something like the above and actually believe it is a complete lunatic.

    Conservatives may be stupid and/or ignorant, but liberals are bat-sh!t insane.

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  35. "Conservatives may be stupid and/or ignorant"

    You bought that line, eh?

    Shame.

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  36. "Man, I am having zero luck on this thread in breaking though the glass ceiling and getting my remarks approved by Komment Kontrol.

    I reckon I'm just getting to be too much of an anti-you-know-what for polite company."


    I'm a regular at Steve's for a while now. 2 things I notice when my comments dissapear (Komment Kontrol):
    - too much inane aggression with run-of-the-mill ranting, swearing etc. Steve likes funny posts and some humour, sarcasm can also do.
    - Steve appreciates contributions to the topic, and not just repetition of other's work.

    Some people accuse him of keeping his threads clean in order to avoid accusations of racism. That's a joke since Steve is in the soup already, so why should he bother? Steve likes to keep an intellectual discourse with a min. standard and good humour.

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  37. Apparently "varied tastes" is Newspeak for "bad taste".


    Nah, for "diversity".

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  38. It seems that the blond woman is some kind of artist/art dealer.

    http://www.susanstarrstudio.com/

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  39. Best quote (from Ken Silverstein at Harper's): Millard Farmer, a death-penalty lawyer in Georgia,... describe[d] Morris Dees, the SPLC's head, as “the Jim and Tammy Faye Bakker of the civil rights movement” (adding, “I don't mean to malign Jim and Tammy Faye”).

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  40. "Those piquant conversation pieces look like a chain and a ball, the sort of implements that were formerly used in slavery or perhaps lynchings. The caption says they're in Mr. Dees's guest living area, which makes me wonder exactly what sort of guests he has."

    Well, they do say it's the upper class that's into kink. Maybe it's a prop for one of those parties...

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  41. Melykin: What the hell is that thing in picture 39 ?

    Direct link to #39.

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  42. Photo 25 has yet another cushion,but this one bears a swastika,as does the blanket on the bed. Hubba Hubba Hubba

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  43. I was waiting for someone to point this out, but since no one has yet, I will. About half of all art supplies for professionals -- camel hair brushes, acrylic paint, pre-stretched canvas, poly clay, block printing supplies, etc -- are purchased by white ladies with financially secure husbands. These menopausal women produce weird dreck which they lovingly display around their otherwise well appointed homes. If they are lucky, some community college will agree to let them temporarily display their crap in the cafeteria. This is the big time for these "artists." They will print up a thousand posters advertising the "event," which will be attended only by their friends (or husband's clients) who come mainly for the merlot and hors d'oeuvres.

    Of course, all this shit gets tossed into a compactor after the estate sale.

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  44. I think if I heard that Morris Dees enjoys flying around on brooms, draining the blood of Anglo-Saxon children into tiny demonic bird baths, and using these bloody trophies to call up legions of street thugs to fight racism by raping college women, I wouldn't believe it, because people can't fly around on brooms.

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  45. I'm in the wrong line of work.

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  46. Mercer: Maybe Steve is tired of people posting as anonymous.

    headache: too much inane aggression with run-of-the-mill ranting, swearing etc. Steve likes funny posts and some humour, sarcasm can also do

    Right - I think that Komment Kontrol is looking for the more light-hearted, whimsical, cutesy-pie sorts of remarks, and I just can't do that anymore.

    I'm pretty much in full-blown Glenn Beck mode at this point - I've studied this thing long enough to know exactly who these people are, what their agenda is, how they go about implementing and realizing their agenda, what the purpose of their agenda is, and where their agenda is intended to lead us.

    And increasingly I just can't figure out how to make jokes about it - not even gallows humor.

    [And frankly I don't even want to make jokes about it - this stuff is deadly serious.]

    Although - as regards this particular thread - I did think that my submission about the rhinoplasty on the [possibly shiksa?] trophy wife was kinda funny [or at least sarcastic].

    But maybe Komment Kontrol is too much of a gentleman to allow us to go there.

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  47. Day-um, Dees. I always heard "I didn't know you could spend a million dollars at Woolworth's" attributed to somebody mocking Ike Turner's taste. But I guess there will always be up-and-comers competing for those laurels.

    (Does Woolworth's still exist? I guess there's some equivalent contemporary popular retailer that's incorporated multiculti into it's stock. I think Target used to have a "Global Market" section, that carried today's version of tiki torches - cheesy Buddha garden statues, etc. The slideshow reminded me of that.)

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  48. The Dee-Starr family seems to have gotten their interior decoration ideas from the set of "The Night Gallery". Really creepy.

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  49. Dees is the descendant of a carpetbagger, a southern general that got cross-threaded with Nathan Bedford Forrest, or a member of Leon Trotsky's family who came to America when Mexico grew too hot?

    Kent Gatewood

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  50. I_need_the_dough8/7/10, 1:17 PM

    Susan Starr would have looked more interesting if she wore nothing under that "dress". Come to think of it. Why would anybody design such a crazy "dress"? Does she usally walk around naked under that dress to give old Morris the thrills? Wouldn't surprise me if Morris turns out to be a little perv.

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  51. the far side8/7/10, 3:17 PM

    "I'm pretty much in full-blown Glenn Beck mode at this point "

    Glenn Beck? You're fed up with even the mild control of this blog and you can't get beyond Glen Beck? He is well-paid by MSM and not going to flip the reservation any time soon. Not really.
    Go more "alternative." That's where the real info is. As I was growing up, I was always told we had a "free" press. They who control the information channels, win, which explains the last election especially.
    Be careful, but it's the only way. This administration is trying to censor it, as China does now and as the Bush administration tried to do, fairly unsuccessfully. I have no idea if they will succeed. Probably not. The internet is too woven in the fabric of our daily lives now. Censoring it to any noticeable degree might conjure protest only the reinstatement of the draft could evoke.

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  52. "I think that Komment Kontrol is looking for the more light-hearted, whimsical, cutesy-pie sorts of remarks, and I just can't do that anymore.

    I'm pretty much in full-blown Glenn Beck mode at this point"

    He is whimsical and cutsey-pie; you just don't realize it.

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  53. Harry Baldwin8/7/10, 6:05 PM

    Anonymous said... Of course, all this shit gets tossed into a compactor after the estate sale.

    One of my friends defined real art as something you'd fish out of a dumpster. (As opposed to stuff that looks like it belongs there.)

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  54. "Have the elites achieved so much leverage over the system that they no longer even have to feign shame or attempt to play along?"

    I wondered that, but I figure if you control most radars you don't have to expend as much energy trying to fly under them.

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  55. Dees has dedicated his life to fighting bigotry and ignorance, so I can see why you guys dislike him so much.

    The content is stupid, but there are no spelling, grammar, or punctuation errors. I'm guessing a 96 IQ.

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  56. "Dees has dedicated his life to fighting bigotry and ignorance, so I can see why you guys dislike him so much."

    Actually, there is no money to be had in fighting bigotry and ignorance. The money is in exploiting the prejudices of his rich, bigoted Jewish donors against working class white Christians.

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  57. >Does Woolworth's still exist?<

    Nope. They sold out to the Foot Locker and went tits up in '97.

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  58. I just received a fund raising letter from the SPLC, Mr. Dee's organization. I threw it in the trash. Years ago, Harper's magazine exposed him as huckster.

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  59. As to Morri$ Dee$ being a fighter against bigotry---biographical information suggests in his formative years he was firmly resolved to get poverty far far away from HIS doorstep and was not widely observed by peers to commiserate over the fate of poor whites or poor blacks. If anything he was seen as holding "losers" in contempt. He is an interesting personality with several manifest features consistent with psychopathic functioning. It is interesting to contemplate whether the real locus of power within SPLC resides with those able to veto his impulses and judgment lapses?

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  60. The high salaries paid within $PLC and the lush life style of Morri$
    $. Dee$ are what is to be expected.
    For a few decades now some lawyers ( at the disapproval of most ) have advocated "abuse of legal process", the essence of which is to bend/ p e r v e r t / the system of justice to serve peculiar personal or ethnic notions of what is desirable or humane or fair, etc. Willful perversity is the root of the whole game. Thus, using the legal system and employment law to get "haters" fired or demoted is a clear aim. Using the legal system to intefere with publishing firms or with law-abiding cults would be likewise an aim. What would be instructive would be to craft fictional vignettes outlining aspects of how i n d e t a i l a large scale "abuse of legal process" entity might function. One Achilles heel is the use of "intelligence" to incite/inspire ethnically activated fat cats in a region to contribute to the destruction of various 'haters' (real or imagined ) in that region. To the extent "intelligence" that is often shared with local police entities is "cookie cut" and "spun", real problems pile up over time. Just discovering that a prominent abuse of legal process entity is not what it appears to be is a little bit sidebar.

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  61. http://yglesias.thinkprogress.org/2010/08/hard-to-avoid-boosting-outsourcing/#comments

    Interesting. "Realist's" argument in the comments is essentially correct, I believe, and worth reading.

    Of course, I would still go the protectionist route simply because short term improved conditions for citizens of the nation you are part of and accelerated development of machinery that takes people's jobs is to me an obviously a higher good than improved prospects for random foreigners in a slightly longer term and slower tech development in tech that takes people's jobs.

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  62. "Abuse of legal process entity"

    Not a bad concept.

    Should be an acronym. ALPE. "X heads an ALPE."

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  63. Dees has dedicated his life to fighting bigotry and ignorance, so I can see why you guys dislike him so much.

    I love it when lefties defend Dees. Nothing like getting shit all over yourself to show people how clean you are.

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  64. >white ladies with financially secure husbands. These menopausal women produce weird dreck which they lovingly display around their otherwise well appointed homes. If they are lucky, some community college will agree to let them temporarily display their crap in the cafeteria.[...] Of course, all this shit gets tossed into a compactor after the estate sale.<

    Mr. Dees? Is that you?

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  65. With regard to "intelligence" being subjected to a kind of cosmetic surgery to make it particularly stimulating to prospective donors ( at the expense of being complete and accurate) , persons feeling themselves the objects of abuse of legal process aims ( involving employment especially but also business viability, etc. ) can make good use of the Net by simply drawing up affidavits to give forth full and accurate information about various topics of relevance to the person's activities and then putting exact copies of such affidavits on the Net. This sort of "information correction" really is threatening to the perverse treatment of information by entities organized to abuse legal process. It is also especially illuminating and protective to law enforcement entities who have been suckered into information exchanges with such entities. Intelligence "counterfeiting" is probably the main vulnerability of outfits like $PLC.

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  66. what a fucktard....spending all this money he filtched from clients....whos the corrupt one?

    fucking dees...the sleeze

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  67. It is not wise to overlook
    areas of merit in the $PLC
    intimidation network. The $PLCD
    "Teaching Tolerance" inescapably has some aspects thar are of merit. There is nothing preventing school personnel from drawing these out, "sanitizing" the overall program of TT, and adpating it accordingly, if due caution is taken to note carefully what is generic and what has been revised to be brought into accord with reality. Tolerance in schools will not be optimally attained until the insights of Jensen, Rushton, Brand, Eysenck, Gottfredson, Lynn and others are threaded into it. The writings of Jared Taylor and Steve Sailer would be indispensable to "reworking" TT into a realistic program.

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  68. Three jews, the descendants of slave traders running an organization telling white people how to live and deal with the negroes their people brought to the united states, and making millions of dollars while doing it. How very jewish of them. People say jews are smarty, I like to say crafty, and with all the crafts in Dee's house, I seem to be right.

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  69. The rich people become even more rich and the poor a lot more poorer. It sad that instead of buying those crazy art pieces, it would have been better if they give that to the poor.

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  70. It sad that instead of buying those crazy art pieces, it would have been better if they give that to the poor.

    Yes, but remember, the money could have been spent on promoting leftist causes too. His actual expenditures are more or less a neutral outcome.

    Think of it like this: Dees cheats rich Jewish bigots out of money that they might otherwise spend in a harmful manner and then wastes it on his palace, his trophy wife, her "art", etc. Who does this harm but himself, the fools who want to hear his ideology, and others like them?

    Seen from a larger perspective this waste is a strategic victory.

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  71. THE SPLC IS A HATE GROUP.
    WHY MORRIS DEES NEEDS TO BE DISBARRED IN VARIOUS STATES.

    Thank you for the great article.

    SPLC has a good scam going--any group that is patriotic and cares about this country is labeled a hate group.

    But what most Americans do not understand that the SPLC does not have any special authority or right to do that, more than any other guy on the street.

    If a bum on the street told you the earth is flat, does that make the earth flat? Similarly, if a nutcase like Dees tells the left wing media that so-and-so is a hate group, it does NOT make it a fact. It just shows Morris Dees is a fraudster--that's all.

    The gullible American public views SPLC's senseless rantings as if it were a fact--they are not!!

    SPLC's scam is mainly to make money. The lies of this hate group is to advance this fraud by bilking the donors and therefore can be viewed as mail fraud, wire fraud and racketeering.

    People should file complaints with the state bars of the various states against Morris Dees and have disbarred, since I think, a lot of his dirty tricks and scams appear to violate the rules of professional conduct. For example, many state bars prohibit false statements to 3rd parties or violations of the law. Calling innocent groups as hate groups and making those statements to 3rd parties is often unethical unprofessional conduct warranting disbarment. Defaming other parties is a violation of the law (defamation) and is often unprofessional conduct warranting disciplinary action.

    Also, promoting illegal aliens (who are by definition, criminals), collecting money from his donors by misrepresenting things, are violations of the rules of professional conduct, warranting disciplinary action.

    He wants to destroy America and is an anti-social sociopath--in my opinion. The list of unethical and unprofessional conduct by Dees could be quite long, since he often behaves like an unprofessional unethical crooked lawyer.

    People who have contributed to him, in response to the fraud in his mailers, will have additional standing to sue him for fraud and racketeering and have him disbarred. They could also file criminal complaints against him with the Attorney general to have criminal prosecuted for mail and wire fraud.

    If people filed numerous complaints against Morris Dees, not only in his home state, but in every state he has ever appeared pro hac vice, he could be disbarred. This is what it will take.

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  72. (Does Woolworth's still exist? )

    In fact, they still do ...in Germany.

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  73. Trophy wife? I dunno. I'd picture a trophy wife of Mr. Dees as someone barely out of college (with certain obvious physical endowments) and not too bright.* I'm sure ol' Morris could have his pick of those adoring types. Susan Starr (google her gallery site if you like) seems to be well into middle age, with a career and life of her own, not bad looking, but no bombshell. Just my 1.5 cents.

    *This is not knocking all the awesome 20-somethings out there!

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  74. Morris Dees made enough money before starting SPLC that he never had to work. He could have managed his investments and lived very well. Instead he founded a law firm who represented the families of people who were being lynched and ripped off by the racist and dishonest. He is now 76 years old, when many are retired and he is still working.

    As far as Charity Navigator, SPLC is a 3-star charity out of 4 and its accountability and transparency rating is 4 of 4 stars. So no problem seeing where their funds come from and where they go. And poster Whiskey seems to be drinking plenty of his own. This charity is a law firm, which involves more than handing out leaflets.

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  75. Anonymous,

    You really came to the wrong place to try to sell the $PLC as a charitable defender of the downtrodden. Not only has our host been on their needs-killin' list, but most of the commenters here would be too if we were important enough for them to bother with.

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