Steve Sailer: iSteve: Congratulations to Chile

October 13, 2010

Congratulations to Chile

It's in the tradition of Peru's 1997 rescue of 71 of the 72 hostages held in the Japanese ambassador's residence by terrorists.Take your time and do it right.

My published articles are archived at iSteve.com -- Steve Sailer

82 comments:

Anonymous said...: Please people. 33 brave men who have been trapped underground in a mine for 70 days are finally being reunited with their loved ones. Let's not turn this thread into one of denigrating Hispanics. Let's have some human empathy here.; 10/13/10, 3:23 AM
dearieme said...: "Take your time and do it right." That's desperately unpatriotic of you, Steve.; 10/13/10, 3:37 AM
Silver said...: Not a moment wasted with the shiny new hispanic save-the-gop strategy, eh? ¡Que viva el pueblo chileno!; 10/13/10, 3:49 AM
Le Sigh said...: HAHA, it's funny coz Steve didn't really mean it. ^_^

I'm sure Mrs Sailer (forcibly)lol'd up a storm when he test-ran this joke on her. Such are the efforts needed to maintain a long-term marriage, I suppose.; 10/13/10, 4:01 AM
eh said...: Truly moving moments and a remarkable achievement -- congratulations to all involved.; 10/13/10, 4:10 AM
Anonymous said...: Steve, some of your readers display an alarming lack of empathy. A lack of empathy is also one of the signs of being psychopathic. I worry about some of your readers.; 10/13/10, 5:24 AM
none of the above said...: Yeah, this story is a mix of incredible luck and a really impressive rescue. I hope everyone gets out safely. (Though I wonder what they'll do for a living after this. Damn, but it'd be hard to go back into a mine after that.); 10/13/10, 6:05 AM
Jim O said...: It's been wonderful watching this happen today. What a trimph for humanity.; 10/13/10, 6:11 AM
Severn said...: It's a great story.; 10/13/10, 7:20 AM
Anonymous said...: What, accusing Chile of taking its time and doing it right?!? We should demand that Chile do it the U.S. Way: politically expedient and dead wrong.; 10/13/10, 7:43 AM
Anonymous said...: The Russians could learn a thing or two.; 10/13/10, 7:54 AM
Dutch Boy said...: Quite a contrast to the SEAL team "rescue" of the British hostage in Afghanistan (in which they fragged her!).; 10/13/10, 7:54 AM
Anonymous said...: (Oct. 9) -- Clinton Cragg is a NASA engineer on a troubleshooting safety team set up in the wake of the 2003 Space Shuttle Columbia disaster. He had spent much of his professional life in the Navy, where he served as a submarine captain, accustomed to living in confined space.

So when the Chilean rescue authorities settled on a plan for reaching the 33 miners trapped 2,400 feet below a desolate desert, but needed a contraption to bring them to the surface, Cragg would become the perfect man to pitch in.

http://www.aolnews.com/world/article/nasa-engineer-clinton-cragg-thought-small-to-design-rescue-capsule-for-chilean-miners/19667140; 10/13/10, 8:39 AM
Truth said...: How many posts before someone mentions the supposed "white admixture" of Chile (which curiously was disputed during the riots last year)

I set the over-under at 8 (including this one).; 10/13/10, 10:00 AM
Kylie said...: I was grateful and relieved when I read the miners were being rescued.

So I watched this clip in their honor:

How Green Was My Valley.; 10/13/10, 10:02 AM
PC Young Pioneer said...: Steve posts a honest congratulations to Chile for rescuing their miners and some PC nitwit young pioneer is the first to chime in and twist it into some anti-Hispanic post bait.

Truly, the PC crowd must be the most twisted and instinctively racists group around. Can't you let a heroic story with a happy ending just be without injecting race into it?; 10/13/10, 10:18 AM
Anonymous said...: The effort of the Chilean government in remedying this disastrous accident compares quite favorably to that of the U.S. government in dealing with the Deepwater Horizon oil well blow-out and spill. If Obama had been in charge in Chile, those miners would still be underground, perhaps dead.; 10/13/10, 10:48 AM
Laban said...: Totally off topic - leftie psychologist Oliver James on "why genes are leftwing"; 10/13/10, 11:11 AM
stari_momak said...: Totally off topic , but Steve, have you ever turned your laser-like mind to Scientology? (little BN never hurts) I've just read this case

http://blogs.laweekly.com/informer/daniel-montalvo-scientology/

(about a young man who was mysteriously arrested by the LA Sheriffs after a leaving a 'safehouse' for ex-scientologists.

and watched a couple of brief youtube documentaries. I don't usually care about cults one way or the other, and they tend to extinguish themselves (Jonestown, Heaven's gate). Thing is Scientology docs show kids being indoctrinated at an early age, and the case above concerns a 'life long' (ex?)scientologist who is only 19 years old -- so he must have been raised a scientologist also.

To me, this passing on to a 'next generation' of scientologists , coupled with its SoCal origins and strength, and its sort of conspiritorial , network-y character, and rumored influence in the movie industry put it right up your ally.

Of course, maybe you are communing with XENU or whatever, in which case please don't trace my IP address.; 10/13/10, 12:11 PM
Anonymous said...: Um, didn't the Chileans decide they needed to call in *Americans* to get the job done?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20101009/ap_on_bi_ge/lt_chile_mine_collapse_americans; 10/13/10, 12:26 PM
Wanderer said...: Mugshots of the Miners -- You can read a short "life story" of each man at this link.

Rehosted screenshot of all 33 mugshots. [See first link for larger pictures].; 10/13/10, 1:30 PM
Whiskey said...: China has had a lot of mine disasters. Chinese people are already complaining, Chile, not a First World country, can mount this sustained rescue, mostly on the backs of the personal involvement of the President and Mining Minister, while China simply shrugs its shoulders.

The political ripple will mostly be in China. It also btw shows up Obama and Bush in their handling of disasters. I.E. failure to be onsite and kick ass personally, cut through red tape. The President of Chile used personal orders to have the military fly equipment in.; 10/13/10, 1:53 PM
Anonymous said...: Okay, the funny thing is that so many folks keep mistaking the Chilean flag for the the Texas flag.; 10/13/10, 2:15 PM
Steve Sailer said...: "The Russians could learn a thing or two."

Yup...; 10/13/10, 2:33 PM
Fred said...: Chile is one of the best-run countries in the world. If it had more human capital it would be a first world country, but as it is, it's much stabler politically and much wealthier on a per capita basis than most Third World countries. We ought to bring back the phrase Second World to describe countries like it.; 10/13/10, 2:50 PM
Anonymous said...: To the first anon poster:

Nobody is saying anything about "denigrating" Hispanics. YOU ARE.

To "Truth":

Nobody is saying anything about any "admixture". YOU ARE.

Projectionists always show their true thoughts.; 10/13/10, 3:07 PM
Anonymous said...: "Please people. 33 brave men who have been trapped underground in a mine for 70 days are finally being reunited with their loved ones. Let's not turn this thread into one of denigrating Hispanis. Let's have some human empathy here."

Chileans are actually very European, and very few have ever immigrated to the U.S. I've been to Chile, and it is a profusion of blue and green eyed children coming and going to school. Chile is I think the best overall country of the Americas, even better than the U.S and Canada. You will not find a more peaceful, orderly and beautiful civilization anywhere. In terms of GDP per capita it is essence a First World nation. It's like Switzerland before immigrants wrecked it.; 10/13/10, 3:10 PM
Anonymous said...: "Chile, not a First World country"

I would think it compares favorably to, say, California.; 10/13/10, 3:38 PM
Anonymous said...: What does Chile do so wrong that it got a 60 year old leader with a P.hD in Economics from Harvard?

BTW 60 years old is a proper, mature age to run a country. The occupant is not half-thinking about where his career is going after his term in office ends. For example, David Cameron and Nick Clegg have jobs line up for them in the European Union so they're not going to do anything to separate UK from that malign institution.; 10/13/10, 4:00 PM
Mac said...: "Chile is one of the best-run countries in the world. If it had more human capital it would be a first world country, but as it is, it's much stabler politically and much wealthier on a per capita basis than most Third World countries. We ought to bring back the phrase Second World to describe countries like it."

" Chile is I think the best overall country of the Americas"

If you've ever read the Heinlein book Tramp Royale, he has nothing but praise for Chile and its people.; 10/13/10, 4:22 PM
ricpic said...: Once again an American bitter clinger gets the job done.; 10/13/10, 4:26 PM
Anonymous said...: Steve,

Off-topic but two HBD-related bits in the news:

1. For Hispanics in the US, life expectancy at birth is higher than for Whites. The original CDC report here:
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/series/sr_02/sr02_152.pdf

2. Non-Western children don't do well in the self-awareness mirror test:
http://hbdchick.wordpress.com/2010/10/02/mirror-mirror-on-the-wall/
And the original paper is here: http://jcc.sagepub.com/content/early/2010/09/08/0022022110381114 (it says the mirror test must be wrong).; 10/13/10, 5:07 PM
Truth said...: "Nobody is saying anything about any "admixture". YOU ARE."

You're right, no one did; until the post following yours.; 10/13/10, 5:25 PM
Anonymous said...: Quite a contrast to the SEAL team "rescue" of the British hostage in Afghanistan (in which they fragged her!).
---
Don't be a moron. I'd rather be killed by friendly fire from my rescuers than tortured slowly and have it put up on the internet by muslims. Besides, who forced this woman to Afghanistan to help out (good luck with that)? She had no idea what goes down there?; 10/13/10, 6:24 PM
Anonymous said...: You racists make me sick.; 10/13/10, 6:39 PM
RandyB said...: Don't forget that Chile had an earthquake the same time Haiti did.

But Chile's whole society didn't collapse, so it wasn't "news".; 10/13/10, 6:42 PM
tommy said...: Good rescue.; 10/13/10, 6:42 PM
Cicero said...: "You're right, no one did; until the post following yours."

So, uh, do you actually care about the lives of the miners, or are you just going to bask in the fact that some twit (an anonymous one) brought up race?

You lost your bet by the way.

Anyway, I'm glad for the miners. They showed incredible fortitude and resolve during all this. They didn't even have help for the first 17 days, and yet managed to organize and share food as efficently as possible, and so they all survived. It's easily one of the greatest tales of teamwork and brotherhood in modern memory.; 10/13/10, 6:47 PM
Anonymous said...: We ought to bring back the phrase Second World to describe countries like it.

The term certainly is ready for reuse. It formerly meant Communist countries. That's a fairly obsolete usage today, Cuba and North Korea being the only two qualifiers.

Peter; 10/13/10, 7:37 PM
Truth said...: "So, uh, do you actually care about the lives of the miners,"

Not particularly, I'm happy for them and their families, but people die every day. Such is the circle of life, Daniel-San.

"You lost your bet by the way."

This, I did.

"They showed incredible fortitude and resolve during all this."

How do you know? you weren't in the mine. This could be the "Jessica Lynch is a hero because she actually fired her weapon" media hype thing going again.; 10/13/10, 8:00 PM
stari_momak said...: twit (an anonymous one) brought up race?

I take it you're a newcomer here.

Anyhoo, it looks to me like the miners, except for the Bolivian, are substantially of European ancestry, with significant admixture (!) of Indian (Mapuche?) . Strangely, it seems like the wives seem more Amerind, but this is all from TV.

Univision's coverage of the whole this was great, BTW. Far superior to CNN.; 10/13/10, 8:37 PM
Anonymous said...: Actually, they didn't take their time, they had initially hoped they would get them out by the end of November, so they're a good two months ahead. As for Presidential involvement, that was helpful in so far as he didn't go on a political witchhunt against the experts his government (especially Mining Minister Laurence Goldborne) hired to carry out the rescue, a la Prof. Katz. Also the Presidential term is limited here; you can hold office for only one consecutive term, so both incumbents and aspirants, returning or otherwise, have to think in the long term, without the burden of constant fundraising and general bs. It helps that Chileans view themselves in contrast to other Latin Americans. It is a great source of national pride that their police will arrest you if you offer them a bribe. If you wanted a vague, generalized, but still pertinent explanation of this culture, think of a bunch of hispanicized English Catholics. Whenever you walk into a store here, the owner will give you a good look over to determine whether you are good enough to serve. Stodgy, hierarchical, a bit cruel, yes, but the results of that culture are on display. One may discuss the racial differences of the miners vs the governing class, but it is important to realize that the concept of nobless oblige from the upper class, one which Steve has written about being so important to the healthy governance of a state, is in fact quite alive and well here, thus limiting the vile rapaciousness of the ruling castes which has so successfully gutted the US.; 10/13/10, 8:41 PM
Melykin said...: The 6 rescuers are all up now too, thank God. It was heartwarming to watch all those miners brought to the surface and reunited with their loved ones. It leaves me with a good feeling about Chile.

I noticed that most of the miners and their families seem to be darker skinned than the rescuers. It could be that the miners are locals, while the rescuers are from the city. In any case, thank Goodness everyone is out!; 10/13/10, 9:00 PM
Iosue Andreas Sartorius said...: I spent more than a year in Santiago as a student, and there is something to the fact that Chileans see themselves, half-jokingly, as the "British of Latin America."

¡Viva Chile, mierda!; 10/13/10, 9:13 PM
Sgt. Joe Friday said...: I've been to Chile many times, and it is defenitely a 1st world country, albeit of a lower level. If California were its own nation-state, I would not be so sure Chile would not be rated ahead of it by most important measures.

FWIW, Chile has a substantial population descended from German immigrants, and to a lesser extent French and Italian immigrants, all Spanish speaking of course. The percentage of the population that is mestizo or indigenous is low by Latin American standards, and the Chileans don't buy into the multi-cultural claptrap.

Our elite media enjoy demonizing Pinochet, but he was really in the end the one that begat modern Chile. I was there in 1988 when he was voted out of office. Little did I know that LA's San Fernando Valley, almost indistinguishable from the Santiago landscape, would descend into the 3rd world toilet while Santiago did not.

Oh, and BTW the Chilean women are hot.; 10/13/10, 10:01 PM
Mr. Anon said...: "Cicero said...

Anyway, I'm glad for the miners. They showed incredible fortitude and resolve during all this. They didn't even have help for the first 17 days, and yet managed to organize and share food as efficently as possible, and so they all survived. It's easily one of the greatest tales of teamwork and brotherhood in modern memory."

I agree. Just surviving such an ordeal is itself an accomplishment. I wish them all long and happy lives. Congratulations are in order: to them, to thier rescuers, and as Steve said, to Chile, for taking the time to do it right.; 10/13/10, 10:09 PM
Anonymous said...: For those of you who are calling the Chileans Latinos and all that stuff, do you have any idea what you're talking about? Have you been to Chile? I have been there many times. They are the most civilized, gentle, orderly, polite people you will ever come across seriously. Chile is the Switzerland of America. You see how clean the streets are, how orderly everything is. Children go to shool in cute uniforms. They look like Parisian school children from the 19th Century from petite burgeoise part of the city. Not only due to the uniforms, but because they look like Parisian children with their blond hair and blue and green eye. Lmaooo. As for GNP per capita, the U.S and Canada are still superior to Chile, but Chile might reach that level in another 20 years or so and it's enonomy has been growing at 7.5% a year for the past 25 years. But Chile is the best country of the Americas not because of GNP per capita, but because it has the highest quality of life, cheapest land, most stable politically and most stable with the lowest crime rate. It is the jewel of the America.; 10/14/10, 1:28 AM
Anonymous said...: And also in the (waning) American tradition of getting things done, congratulations to team leader Jeff Hart and his drill team for getting the miners' escape hole drilled TWO MONTHS ahead of the original estimate!

Plan B indeed...

Brutus; 10/14/10, 6:16 AM
headache said...: Congratulations. It was amazing watching them operate the rescue so professionally.; 10/14/10, 6:39 AM
headache said...: Anon sez:
(Oct. 9) -- Clinton Cragg is a NASA engineer on a troubleshooting safety team set up in the wake of the 2003 Space Shuttle Columbia disaster. He had spent much of his professional life in the Navy, where he served as a submarine captain, accustomed to living in confined space.

The design comes from a German design used in the sixties in a similar but more shallow accident there. Here from the Daily Telegraph blog:
The Phoenix Two rescue capsule is based on something called the "Dahlbusch Bomb", a device which had its finest hour in "The Miracle of Lengede" in 1963, where 11 West German miners were pulled alive from a mine collapse.; 10/14/10, 6:44 AM
headache said...: Truth said...

How many posts before someone mentions the supposed "white admixture" of Chile (which curiously was disputed during the riots last year)

I set the over-under at 8 (including this one).

Truth, you are the first one to fuck up this thread. You like to point out the apparent race obsession of white guys here, but you are infinity worse.; 10/14/10, 6:46 AM
Dutch Boy said...: Quite a contrast to the SEAL team "rescue" of the British hostage in Afghanistan (in which they fragged her!).
---
Don't be a moron. I'd rather be killed by friendly fire from my rescuers than tortured slowly and have it put up on the internet by muslims. Besides, who forced this woman to Afghanistan to help out (good luck with that)? She had no idea what goes down there?

Dear Anonymous: the morons are the guys who throw fragmentation grenades during a hostage rescue.; 10/14/10, 8:54 AM
Marc B said...: Cheers to the Chileans and jeers to the PC ninnies trying to turn this celebratory thread into something nasty.

"Totally off topic - leftie psychologist Oliver James on "why genes are leftwing".

Liberals are so afraid of what happens when you follow Darwinism to it's local conclusion that they have to squash the most basic scientific principles in their quest for social engineering. They seem to have a pathological fear of hierarchy.; 10/14/10, 9:53 AM
Anonymous said...: My reaction was that they were rushing it and got lucky. I'm happy that no one got hurt but I think there was a lot more risk in play than there need to have been.

The greatest risk was that the rescue torpedo vehicle would get stuck. It was only an inch or so narrower than drill hole. The drill hole was only lined near the top. A rock could break off from the passage of the torpedo vehicle. If it happened on an ascent, the miner inside would have been doomed.

With all those people milling about there was the possibility that someone might kick a rock down from the top when the torpedo was ascending. It wouldn't take a stone much bigger than a walnut to jam the miner in. As far as I can tell they had no remedy for such a jam. They could talk to the poor bastard and they could see him too. But they had no secondary rescue vehicle that they could lower down to clear the jam.

Another vehicle in the hole would probably be impossible with that cable running down the center. Perhaps they could lower a small man in a harness with lights and tools. He would need to enter the hole head first and be lowered upside down of course. Not a job I would want, but there are some gymnasts, rock climbers or Ninja Warriors who could manage it. With the prospect of being an international hero seen on a billion TV sets, you would get volunteers.

For example, if there was a long term blockage on an ascent, someone would need to take an oxygen hose down to the miner trapped inside and attach it. This sort of thing couldn't be done from below.

I'm sure that had the torpedo gotten stuck this is exactly what they would have done. The problem is that it would take several hours to improvise such a rig and find a gymnast. The trapped miner probably didn't have enough oxygen for such a wait.

I kept thinking that if the torpedo jammed and couldn't be pulled up they could still pull it back down. But they didn't seem to have considered this. It wouldn't have taken much. They could have affixed a cable to the bottom of the torpedo and put a small reel and motor bolted to the floor of the cave. Then if the torpedo got jammed going up they could just pull it back down.

The Chileans went ahead with out a fall back position. The two simple measures I have suggested here might have taken another day or two to set up. They didn't want to wait.

Albertosaurus; 10/14/10, 9:54 AM
Anonymous said...: I just measured myself. I'm six five and twenty four inches wide. The torpedo rescue capsule was six four high and twenty one inches wide.

I guess I'll have to abandon my dreams of being a Chilean miner.

Albertosaurus; 10/14/10, 10:07 AM
C. Van Carter said...: It would have been funny if the miners had refused to come up.; 10/14/10, 10:32 AM
PRCalDude said...: "I would think it compares favorably to, say, California."

The California of 40 years ago, that is. There are currently only 30 million people there. You can surf and snowboard in the same day.

Everyone I've met from there has been wonderful, regardless of admixture.

Twoof et al just want a reason to whine because whining is what the Twoof-like people do.; 10/14/10, 10:58 AM
Anonymous said...: Take your time and do it right.

And get a white American male to help you.; 10/14/10, 11:24 AM
dearieme said...: I gather that some Americans took part in the rescue. It just shows that under suitably grown-up unhysterical command, Americans can be valuable employees in such charged circumstances.; 10/14/10, 2:30 PM
Austin Bramwell said...: Is the relative success of Chile a result of its settlement by Basques? I wonder if Steve has written on this subject before.; 10/14/10, 3:12 PM
headache said...: Albertosaurus,
the rescue torpedo vehicle apparently had an abseil mechanism in pace so that if it got stuck the miner could lower himself down the hole.
Another thing was that the rock was very hard. Unlined tunnels are common in hard rock formations.; 10/14/10, 4:08 PM
Anonymous said...: "Dear Anonymous: the morons are the guys who throw fragmentation grenades during a hostage rescue."

Nobody shoots rifles either...; 10/14/10, 8:01 PM
Chief Seattle said...: "Second World" used to refer to the Soviet block. "First World" was the West and Japan. "Third World" was everything else - presumably left alone out of weakness or lack of importance. So "promoting" Chile to Second world wouldn't really be much of a promotion.

The Chile thing is a really amazing story. The fact that the government recognized its limitations and brought in foreign expertise where needed reflects well on everyone involved.; 10/14/10, 8:06 PM
TGGP said...: Chile just became a member of OECD. I'd say it's first-world now.; 10/14/10, 10:01 PM
corvinus said...: For those of you who are calling the Chileans Latinos and all that stuff, do you have any idea what you're talking about? Have you been to Chile?

Agreed. The funny thing is, there was a Chilean student here recently who said he identified as Latino, as opposed to white, despite being blond, green-eyed, and of obvious European descent. So... in addition to actually calling him a "white guy" at one point (I can't remember the context), I would throw rhetorical questions at him, such as "Latino? You mean like Italians?" He said that Italians were European and not Latino, and I would insist that they were. He was a good guy, though... I just wanted to at least incept into him that he was a child of Europe.; 10/14/10, 10:29 PM
Fred said...: Chief Seattle,

I am aware of the former usage of "Second World". Since the Soviet Block is no more, I am suggesting it be revived for countries such as Chile.

Alternatively, we could stop calling every country on the spectrum between First World and Fourth World "developing" and differentiate between those that are actually developing in a positive manner, such as Chile, and those that are just perennially undeveloped.

TGGP,

"Chile just became a member of OECD. I'd say it's first-world now."

Would you say Mexico is First World then? Because Mexico is a member of the OECD too. To be sure, Mexico belongs in the OECD like Russia belongs in the G-8 (formerly G-7), but given the way these organizations have been diluted and expanded, membership is no longer an accurate signifier of First World status.; 10/15/10, 12:10 AM
Anonymous said...: Albertosaurus - With all those people milling about there was the possibility that someone might kick a rock down from the top when the torpedo was ascending.

When I first saw the top of the escape tunnel, where the gantry was, I noticed how that whole area was smooth concrete. I thought they had gone a bit over the top in finishing the surface. Of course what you said about debris being knocked down the hole explains that high quality finish. There was no debris at the top to be knocked down.

Furthermore we dont know what, if any, precautions were in place to keep that platform area clean throughout the day. For all I know there was a guy with a brush sweeping it clear the whole time. I didnt notice that on tv but, well, he could have been there.; 10/15/10, 1:58 AM
Dutch Boy said...: Anonymous said...

"Dear Anonymous: the morons are the guys who throw fragmentation grenades during a hostage rescue."

Nobody shoots rifles either..

Knives, pistols and flash-bang grenades for the troops entering the building, rifles for everybody else (and tell the SEALS that a hostage rescue is not a search-and-destroy mission!); 10/15/10, 11:47 AM
Anonymous said...: Ok, I want to clarify what I said. When I claimed that Chile is the best country of the Americas, I wasn't talking about GNP per capita.

In terms of GNP per capita, the U.S and Canada are for the time being still superior to Chile, even though Chile might reach the U.S level in only another 20 years or so which is a very short time.

What I actually meant by Chile being the best country of the Americas is that it has the most orderly and also peaceful society, the highest quality of life and those things. If it weren't for the horrible smog, Santiago would be like Geneva. The streets are so clean, everything works so perfectly. Trains arrive on time as well as buses. You don't see even the slightest litter on the streets. The homicide rate in Chile is not even 10% of the U.S level. The entire Chilean society works like a clock. If you go to Chilean towns you see lots of little kids with names like "Claus" nd "Gottfried". Chileans are a strange mixture of Spaniards with Germans and yes, a little Amerindian. However, the Amerindian proportion of the population is very small and concentrated on the South. Most Chileans are pure European.

Chileans are the nicest, most polite civilized people you will meet. They are so polite to all people. Most white Americans would strike them as rude and unpolite.; 10/15/10, 1:29 PM
Anonymous said...: The Russians could learn a thing or two.

Yeah, what's that saying about the Spetsnaz:

"50 hostages, 20 terrorists, 70 bodybags. Mission accomplished."; 10/16/10, 8:35 AM
David Davenport said...: Knives, ... for the troops entering the building

Knives? You've outed yourself as a commando wannabe who gets his notions about super-soldiering from the movies.

Was the hostage rescue team supposed to include expert knife throwers? Maybe some guys with blowguns also?; 10/16/10, 9:33 AM
Anonymous said...: "However, the Amerindian proportion of the population is very small and concentrated on the South. Most Chileans are pure European."

Completely untrue. Probably a majority of people in Chile IDENTIFY as having Amerindian in them.

Also the Chilean economy seems to have plateaued at $10,000/per capita. The US is $45,000/per capita. (all nominal GDP figures) That gap won't close in 20 years. Probably never.

Makes your other claims sound more bogus.; 10/16/10, 3:04 PM
Anonymous said...: The CIA World Factbook puts Chile's GDP per capita at $15,000 and Wikipedia cites 2 or 3 studies indicating that about half the population identifies themselvese as Amerindian or Mestizo.; 10/16/10, 4:13 PM
Anonymous said...: @Anonymous

Unlike you, I have been to Chile many times so I know more about it than you do.

Lots of people from the lower class have Amerindian ancestry, but the middle and upper classes are pure European. Also, even in the lower classes, the percentage of Amerindian ancestry is much lower than in other countries of Latin America. The lower class Chileans probably have around 10% or maybe a little bit more of Amerindian ancestry compred to 50% in other Latin Americans countries. Trust me when I tell you that you see more blue-eyed people in Santiago than in most European cities, especially more than in any Southern European country. Chile is a European couuntry is Latin America, dude. Acknowledging Amerindian ncestry doesen't means shit, since if you have 1 Amerindian ancestor out of your 16 great-great-grandparents, then by the very definitiion you have Amerindian ancestry. Most lower class Chileans do have Amerindian ancestry, but it is pretty small compared to other countries of Latin America. Lots of white Americans have a Cherokee or Apache ancestor and they identify as white. Lots of Chileans have an Araucano ancestor and they still identiify as Amerindiann even though 90% of their blood is European.

As for Chile never making it into the First World, I actually agree with you to some extent. Making it into the First World is extremely hard. Pretty much the only two countries that ever went from Third World to First World are Cingapure and Hong Kong, and the only reason for it is because lots of rich Chinese immigrated there after the Communist revolution. Even South Korea with a population that is on average more literate and intelligent than Americans haven't been able to become full-fledged First World nations. To become a First World nation, it is not enough for a country to have an industrious and well educated population: you also need a highly creative and entrepeneural elite that is good at creating businesses. You also need a critical mass of PhDs who turn supply the business World with technologies that increase productivity and gives businesses the ability to create goods that command high prices. Most countries in the World lack all that is required to become full-fledged First World nations.

But Chile's per capita has not stagnated. In fact, Chile's GDP has been growing at 7.5% a year for the past 25 years. This is a fact, my friend. At this rate, it will take Chile at least another 20 years but less than 40 to reach the U.S' level, and that is a very short time. And even if it never makes it, it wiill still be superior to the U.S in orderliness, social development and quality of life. Chile's homicide rate is not even 10% of the U.S level and if you make a decent pay you can live better in Chile than in most of the U.S since land is cheaper there and food is inexpensive. Think before you type, ok.; 10/16/10, 9:33 PM
fed employee said...: "Like in most Latin American countries, to identify as White is far more a social construct -- rather than a predominantly biological one, as it was/is in Anglo-Celtic North America."

Nonsense. People view Ignatievian delusions cynically here. After working at the International Development Bank and Pan-American Health Organization, I would never called most Chileans "mestizos." Some are, obviously, but most in the cities are not. This is neither "good" nor "bad," it just is. They identify culturally as Spanish-speaking but language identity can disappear quickly when not augmented by ethnicity--or even if it is. Chileans marry with other persons of European ancestry when not with other Chileans, and not often with mestizo Hispanics. I can't comment on whether this is prejudice or just what comes naturally, but that's how it is.
The Chileans I know are very concerned about an increasing Arab/Muslim presence in their country. One lady said, at first glance some look Chilean but of course you can tell they are not (usually.); 10/17/10, 1:23 PM
Dutch Boy said...: David Davenport said...
"Knives, ... for the troops entering the building
Knives? You've outed yourself as a commando wannabe who gets his notions about super-soldiering from the movies"
Obviously you have never served in the military. Knives are carried by commandos as a backup for the pistol and to kill silently and are not intended to be thrown:http://www.ekknife.com/; 10/17/10, 2:44 PM
David Davenport said...: Well, maybe you're right and I'm wrong.

Spme of the testimonials from your ekknife website are incontrovertibly authentic. For example:

"I was at the battle at LZ X-Ray, 1965, Vietnam with 2/7 of the 1st Cav, Air Mobile, as a reinforcement to 1/7, that badly needed help. I was 6'2", 200 lbs., and the NVA attacking us looked like little kids beside me. The second night of fighting, my M16 jammed. The NVA overran our position and were packed in so tightly they couldn't get out of each other's way. When they'd surge forward to bayonet me, I'd grab the barrel of their rifle, pull them forward, and slit their throats with my Ek. Ten bodies were piled up in from of me after the fight. That knife kept me alive that night - and it got more use after that. That knife was made for doing one thing, and that is what I used it for in Vietnam." - Fred B., Wash. State; 10/17/10, 8:52 PM
Anonymous said...: Here is the actual data.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28nominal%29_per_capita

This is the GDP per capital (nominal). Nominal figures are the actual figues not the exchange rate adjusted PPP figures which inflate the per capita of poor countries.

Chile is $9516/per capita. That's not much more above Turkey, $8711/per capita. You call that almost first world? Again, your info is bogus or you don't have much sense for these kinds of things.

And if it was growing at 7.5% for the past 25 years the country definitely would be first world by now. I would like to see a link backing your claim.

Think before you post.; 10/17/10, 9:58 PM
Langobard said...: Nonsense. People view Ignatievian delusions cynically here. After working at the International Development Bank and Pan-American Health Organization, I would never called most Chileans "mestizos."...

Probably because, since your a fed employee and work in international organizations, you primarily deal with Chileans who have significantly more European genes than does the average Chilean. Very, very few of them, however, are wholly European by genetic ancestry.

Of course as well that in the cities, like in most of Latin America, most of the European-descended people will be concentrated there.

Do not get me wrong at all, I love Chile and its people. I just think that their (biologically) Mestizo country is proof positive that a mixed country can be run well and efficiently if the people behave and act decently, and especially, if they adopt the cultural traits that were proven successful elsewhere.

Chile for example adopted -- and greatly took to heart -- many of the cultural values of Germany and Great Britain, and she is certainly one of the better Latin American countries for it.

Especially Germany and the Preussen (Prussian) tradition and virtues of hard work and incorruptibility -- and modelling her whole military system on it:

Tradicion Militar Prusiana en Chile \ Chile's Prussian Military Tradition; 10/18/10, 1:52 AM
Anonymous said...: Ok, this is the last time I am ddressing this issue.

YES, MOST CHILEANS HAVE AMERINDIAN BLOOD. I SAID THIS FROM THE BEGGINING.

My point is that the amount of Amerindian blood is much, much smaller thn in other countries of Latin America. The amount of Amerindian blood amongat Chileans is probably around 10% to 20% compared to over 50% for other Latin Americans. Just compare the populations of Chile with Blovia and you see what I meant.

As for the middle and upper classes, they are pure European. There is no debate here. Just go to Santiago and you'll see tons and tons and tons of kid with blue and green eyes.

As for Chile's GDP per capita being the same as Turkey's, well, Chile's PPP per capita is much closer to $18,000, double of Turkey's. What really matters is PPP because there is no point in being richer if you also need to pay more for services and goods. An American in Japan would be poorer because the cost of living is so very high.

Please take into consideration that Chile had a communits dictatorship back in the 1970s which made it into a very poor ntion. The Chileans had a lot of catching up to do nd they did. And the economy has been growing at a gargantuan rate since 1985. This is a fact.; 10/18/10, 11:25 PM
Svigor said...: Weird thread. It's like the first page of comments is missing or something.; 10/20/10, 3:34 AM
David Davenport said...: Special Forces and Knife Fighting:

Robert Rogers' 28 "Rules of Ranging"

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

An artist's interpretation of Rogers.

The 28 "Rules of Ranging" are a series of rules and guidelines originally created by Major Robert Rogers in 1757, during the French and Indian War (1754–1763).
The rules were originally written at Rogers Island in the Hudson River near Fort Edward. They were intended to serve as a manual on guerrilla warfare for Rogers' Ranger company, a 600 strong contingent whose members were personally selected by Rogers.

The true Plan of Discipline, extracted from Major Rogers's journal and intended for his Rogers' Rangers in 1759, follow:

1. All Rangers are to be subject to the rules and articles of war; to appear at roll-call every evening, on their own parade, equipped, each with a Firelock, sixty rounds of powder and ball, and a hatchet, at which time an officer from each company is to inspect the same, to see they are in order, so as to be ready on any emergency to march at a minute's warning; and before they are dismissed, the necessary guards are to be draughted, and scouts for the next day appointed.

...

13. In general, when pushed upon by the enemy, reserve your fire till they approach very near, which will then put them into the greatest surprise and consternation, and give you an opportunity of rushing upon them with your hatchets and cutlasses to the better advantage.

...; 10/21/10, 8:11 PM

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Congratulations to Chile

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October 13, 2010

Congratulations to Chile

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Panhandling

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