Kay Hymnowitz writes in The Daily Caller:
Still, the biggest reason we probably won’t see a lot more college-educated women walking down the aisle with their plumber is one we don’t like to say out loud: they want to have smart kids. Educated men and women are drawn to spouses they think will help them produce the children likely to thrive in the contemporary knowledge-based economy. That means high IQ, ambitious, and organized kids who will do their homework and take a lot of AP courses. The preference for alpha kids is the reason there is a luxury market for Ivy League egg and sperm donors. It also explains why, though we don’t have solid research distinguishing between elite and State U mating choices, Ms. Harvard will probably not accept a proposal from Mr. Florida State. The economist Greg Mankiw has quipped that “Harvard is probably the world’s most elite dating agency.” A glance at the New York Times nuptial pages suggests he’s right.
In this respect, homogamy, at least educational homogamy, has a profound social downside; it increases economic inequality. Educated couples pass on the smarts and habits to their children that lead to good jobs and nice homes with lots of enriching activities for the grandkids, while the children and grandkids of less-educated men and women remain behind.
Americans don’t like to think of themselves as class conscious. But marriage brings out the snob in the most democratic man or woman — for better or worse.
Marriage (and, thus, reproduction) is important enough to bring out the snob in everybody.
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203 comments:
1 – 200 of 203 Newer› Newest»Well, well, so much for inclusive Harvard liberalism!
There's also the problem of men not wanting to marry up, unless it's inherited money on the part of the wife.
Women take more jobs from men and then wonder where all the eligible men went.
Cultural choices matter a lot here. Plumbers, air conditioning contractors, and electricians make very good incomes, but they don't generally read much or enjoy, say, the opera. If members of the skilled trades developed better taste in music and books, the chasm between Ms. Michigan State and Mr. Master Electrician would sharply narrow. As it is, I don't want my kids to be plumbers because I don't want them to think Toby Keith and "Jackass" are acceptable recreation.
But the women at Florida State are infinitely hotter than the ones at Harvard, and most college students are looking to get married at age 21.
Just for fun, someone should set up an 'egalitarian', 'progressive', and 'inclusive' online dating site that matches well-educated women with down-and-out low-IQ men. Match a Harvard educated female Jewish lawyer with a lawn-mowing Mexican, a Yale educated Chinese-American doctoress with an unemployed black guy, a Princeton educated female professor with some Arkansas cracker without teeth.
And all those women will be rated ultra-progressive to ultra-reactionary based on the kind of men they choose.
My advice to women who cannot secure a guy with a high IQ? Cuckold. Find a high iq alpha type guy at some bar where the hedge fund, wall street, or big law guys hang out. Go home with them and have unprotected sex, saying that you are on the pill. Just make sure his spawn could physically pass as being that of the beta. This way you will get to have smart children that will be provided for.
"Cultural choices matter a lot here. Plumbers, air conditioning contractors, and electricians make very good incomes, but they don't generally read much or enjoy, say, the opera."
You think elite college students are really into opera and serious literature? Rotfl.
"There's also the problem of men not wanting to marry up, unless it's inherited money on the part of the wife. "
That isn't true. I've never heard of some community college guy snubbing a female at State U. because she is too educated/too rich. From what I've observed the main concerns of guys are looks and personality, and other factors such as intelligence/ambition/family background aren't that much of a plus or minus in either direction.
" Find a high iq alpha type guy at some bar where the hedge fund, wall street, or big law guys hang out. Go home with them and have unprotected sex, saying that you are on the pill."
Yeah, because everyone knows those high IQ guys are that stupid.
Educated men and women are drawn to spouses they think will help them produce the children likely to thrive in the contemporary knowledge-based economy. That means high IQ, ambitious, and organized kids who will do their homework and take a lot of AP courses. The preference for alpha kids is the reason there is a luxury market for Ivy League egg and sperm donors.
Kay Hymnowitz obviously isn't a Roissy reader or she would know that smart kids who take a lot of AP courses are not "alphas." An "alpha" is a guy who is good at picking up drunk chicks in bars, the only true measure of social status.
And none of those Harvard chix would EVER marry an semi literate, Quebeciois NHL Hockey player, would they?
"As it is, I don't want my kids to be plumbers because I don't want them to think Toby Keith and "Jackass" are acceptable recreation."-Karen
I confess I also don't want plumbers as children, but come on, is Toby Keith really that abhorrent to you? I'd rather my future children listen to Toby Keith than listen to "Neutral Milk Hotel" or whatever it is that cultured people listen to these days. A college education doesn't have to be synonymous with being a pop culture snob...
Within the same race and with reversion to the mean, is this a big deal? Steve has said that even if you import a bunch of high IQ Indians, you're still importing Indians, and their descendents will revert to the Indian mean. In other words, in a group of 1 billion people, some small percentage will hit the genetic jackpot, but their children won't. Two lottery winners don't give birth to lottery winners, even if they both attend Harvard.
Women pretty much always have married up, it is ingrained behavior and not subject to change, any more than Men's beauty standards. Still society and help or hinder good judgement on the part of Women, two guesses as to which America is doing.
Lois Lanes don't want IQ in a man, at least not by itself. Nor are they true gold-diggers that want money itself - but rather the capacity to make money, combined with only moderately-high IQ and lots of bulging muscle. And no body hair.
Many women find "down-and-out low-IQ men" quite attractive too. It's the down-and-out high IQ men that spook them. The Ph.D.'s driving cabs, the street poets tripping over their beards, the gardeners who head the local Mensa chapters and Star Trek clubs....
The sperm donatees don't just want IQ, they want Nordic looks too (which is why Denmark is the world capital for sperm donation).
That isn't true. I've never heard of some community college guy snubbing a female at State U. because she is too educated/too rich.
Snubbing? What do you mean. I'm sure if the opportunity presented itself, they'd be more than happy to jump into the bag with her, and even have a long-term relationship. But marry her and have kids, while they earn less? That's a different matter. They'd be the lesser partner in every department at that point, and that's not an appetizing position for any man.
If members of the skilled trades developed better taste in music and books, the chasm between Ms. Michigan State and Mr. Master Electrician would sharply narrow.
Sorry, but I had laugh at that one. Look, Ms. Michigan State does not spend her freetime going to operas and perusing Tolstoy. She sets her DVR for Desperate Housewives, Grey's Anatomy and Two and a Half Men. These aren't quite as low as Jackass, but most tradesmen don't watch that either. You're talking college kids here, really. They'll be watching sports or Bill Dance, neither of which are any "lower class" IMO than what most women watch.
" Find a high iq alpha type guy at some bar where the hedge fund, wall street, or big law guys hang out. Go home with them and have unprotected sex, saying that you are on the pill."
"Yeah, because everyone knows those high IQ guys are that stupid."
Boing-boing makes even the smartest guys into Beavis and Buttheads. Also, lots of smart guys are geeky and inexperienced with women. Look at the Saverin character in SOCIAL NETWORK. He's so dorky that he allows some Asian chick to step all over him.
I think nerds and geeks really begin to win AFTER college. In highschool, they lose to jocks, and in college, they lose to jeeks--geeks who are relatively jockier than total geeks.
Karen,
Opera is great voices mixed with high camp and high camp is, well, campy.
And you wonder why country music types laught at you.
"Sorry, but I had laugh at that one. Look, Ms. Michigan State does not spend her freetime going to operas and perusing Tolstoy. She sets her DVR for Desperate Housewives, Grey's Anatomy and Two and a Half Men."
So true. And if you see SOCIAL NETWORK, Harvard is, culturally at least, just another party school where the main concerns are chicks, guys, and drinks.
CARNAL KNOWLEDGE was about sex too, but there was at least some pretension among the students(in the 1950s) for something 'higher'. I guess in our let-it-all-hang-loose culture, everyone's 'all carnal' and 'little knowledge'. And the only knowledge that counts is the stuff that makes you rich.
My advice to women who cannot secure a guy with a high IQ? Cuckold. Find a high iq alpha type guy at some bar where the hedge fund, wall street, or big law guys hang out.
I'm guessing you're a hedge-fund guy who hangs out in bars.
"The sperm donatees don't just want IQ, they want Nordic looks too (which is why Denmark is the world capital for sperm donation)."
Yeah, I don't think too many women want Woody Allen's sperm.
Btw, what do those Nordic guys do for money? Get tested for IQ and then whank off all day in semen labs?
"I confess I also don't want plumbers as children"
Why not?
Kay Hymnowitz does seem to understand that people marry for companionship these days. People with similar educational backgrounds and interests feel more commonality with each other than those who do not. However, she still whinges about this fact.
What she does not seem to understand is that for some of us, companionship is the ONLY reason why we would even dream of getting married. The opportunity cost of giving up the single life is simply too great for any other reason. Companionship is the only thing that can match and exceed this opportunity cost.
It seems that many people, both liberals and conservatives, fail to understand the concept of opportunity cost.
The fraction of women who even know that IQ is significantly heritable could easily be bounded in a nutshell.
"I confess I also don't want plumbers as children"
"Why not?"
Watergate?
Somebody needs to rewatch Idiocracy.
Look, Ms. Michigan State does not spend her freetime going to operas and perusing Tolstoy.
Nor Star Trek conventions and Tolkien.
Karen is an awesome troll. Yeah, Michigan State Agricultural College, that bastion of high culture in a town famous for the East Lansing Opera and the philosophical activities of the Ost-Lansinger Kreis.
Anonymous #4 is more subtle, but sneaking biglaw lawyers into a list of alphas is a little too obvious.
-bb
"Go home with them and have unprotected sex, saying that you are on the pill."
You think if I've made it to Goldman Sachs I'm going to let it go to hell by trusting some woman about that?
Shoot, I'm nowhere near that successful and I still don't trust them about that.
Oh, please! The women at Harvard are all "CANTFINDAMAN" and "HATEMENWIMMENS". They won't even get a look from Real Alpha-Males!
Even the geeks and nerds they go to school with are Mr. Softy with these sorry excuses for femaledom!
"My advice to women who cannot secure a guy with a high IQ? Cuckold. Find a high iq alpha type guy at some bar where the hedge fund, wall street, or big law guys hang out. Go home with them and have unprotected sex, saying that you are on the pill."
Or, that guy in the bar who says he works for J.P. Morgan might actually work for J.T. Marlon, like in the movie "Boiler Room," and he bought that huge Rolex on his wrist in Chinatown for $20 because it impresses dumb skanks in bars like you.
But you're going to have all the fun of raising the biological spawn of two liars for the next 21 years.
Steve Sailer said...
Or, that guy in the bar who says he works for J.P. Morgan might actually work for J.T. Marlon, like in the movie "Boiler Room," and he bought that huge Rolex on his wrist in Chinatown for $20 because it impresses dumb skanks in bars like you.
I don't why I find it so jarring when you use the term 'dumb skanks.'
Not cool, man.
Le Sigh.
I can't comment on any educational snobbery among EliteU grad women, but in my back yard, women teachers, nurses readily marry the higher paid skilled laborers. Blacktop guys, electricians, welders, plumbers make more than their credentialed wives. My nephew is a skilled welder and has made $125,000/year throughout the recession.
I think nerds and geeks really begin to win AFTER college. In highschool, they lose to jocks, and in college, they lose to jeeks--geeks who are relatively jockier than total geeks.
The nerds and geeks that really win are the ones who think outside the box. Forget any sort of school, drop out, the earlier the better, and run away from home if your parents are establishment turds. See the world, ride the rails, and think circus not bank.
"Plumbers, air conditioning contractors, and electricians make very good incomes, but they don't generally read much or enjoy, say, the opera."
Exactly. I'm pretty sure some of the working class men in my family had IQs well above average but they were hicks. Being heterosexual, such a male will also find it difficult to effect the relatively effete manners and communication strategies of the upper class male who may or may not have a genius IQ.
Something that might be called the Fraser effect might be in operation if educated women desperate for offspring sort of cuckold their high IQ working class husbands by nurturing an interest in high brow culture in their children. Frankly, I'm also surprised Sailer hasn't made a distinction between being cultured and being intelligent. Guess he doesn't even do the oil changes on that crappy old Honda of his.
From what I understand, high IQ individuals tend to have fewer children than low IQ ones therefore it doesn't really matter if high IQ women discriminate against low IQ men. Also, I think most men - whether high IQ or not - would prefer a physically attractive low IQ female over a physically unattractive high IQ one. After all, do you really think that guys care about a woman's intelligence when they are watching porn?
I got into an argument along these lines with Whiskey a while back. I presented GSS data and linked to some studies here.
In this feminist-dominated culture, getting married is the worst mistake a man can make. The 2nd-worst mistake is having children. By getting married you are giving a woman the power to destroy your life any time she feels like it.
And increasingly they do feel like it. The vast majority of divorces are initiated by women. With the divorce courts biased against men, you are facing a lifetime of alimony and child support, with no control over your children, and probably very little contact.
Sure, your beloved fiance is a sweet little cupcake today, but will she stay that way? Probably not. The laws give her a great deal of power, and you very little. She will have every incentive to dump you and cash in financially.
If you want to have a happy life, don't get married.
"Yeah, I don't think too many women want Woody Allen's sperm.
Btw, what do those Nordic guys do for money? Get tested for IQ and then whank off all day in semen labs?"
I love you. If you're a guy, would you consider making a baby with me?
"But the women at Florida State are infinitely hotter than the ones at Harvard, and most college students are looking to get married at age 21."
Dunno about this. Harvard has quite a few attractive women and some really ugly chicks. Most Florida State students are probably mediocre in terms of facial attractiveness, although they are probably more likely to have a vulgar bodily attractiveness.
"If members of the skilled trades developed better taste in music and books . . ."
Or if men with taste in music and books learned a trade. It happens all the time.
How many female members of our elite are actually having children? I thought the fertility rate was pretty low.
Speaking of a catch (via Reddit/books), here's a headliner article
http://espn.go.com/blog/collegebasketballnation/post/_/id/29758/kemba-walker-recently-read-his-first-book
A little downward mobility would probably be good for us. I'm thinking of the same in
England leading up to the industrial revolution, as related by G. Clark in Alms.
Most insightful quote in the thread:
The fraction of women who even know that IQ is significantly heritable could easily be bounded in a nutshell.
Right. When women marry successful high IQ men, they're marrying for the money.
Anyway, outside of a few metros (New York, LA, Miami, Vegas, Boston, DC), almost all women are content to settle with a regular guy with a regular job.
"if you import a bunch of high IQ Indians, you're still importing Indians, and their descendents will revert to the Indian mean."
But aren't Indian castes endogenous? Their means are caste means, I would assume.
OTH, there is a famous experiment breeding fruit flies with high bristle number. After generations of selection all the flies had lots of bristles. Yet when they stopped selecting the bristle number returned to the old mean.
Does this imply that Ashkenazi IQ can be expected to drop in the generations ahead? I don't know.
"jeeks--geeks who are relatively jockier than total geeks."
Jeeks. I like that. I was a jeek. Can you still be good looking? Who are the famous jeeks in history? Niels Bohr was a soccer star.
Also, I think most men - whether high IQ or not - would prefer a physically attractive low IQ female over a physically unattractive high IQ one.
Depends. Guys prefer different things depending on what kind of relationship they're after. Sure, looks are the only thing that matters if you're just going to have a wild fling. But men looking to start a family will prioritize things a little differently.
'You think elite college students are really into opera and serious literature? Rotfl.'
I used to date a Rhodes scholar. Me, I dropped out of a public college after 2 years because I needed a job and had some family 'responsibilities' (step-mother & kid brother) or at least I thought they were responsibilities at the time. I had a 3.9 GPA at the time.
We came home after a date and he saw Greek tragedies on my book shelf. "Where did you have to read that?" he asked jokingly, knowing my, ahem, scholastic background.
I said, "Nowhere. I read them for pleasure."
"I never met anybody who read Greek tragedies for pleasure," said the Williams-Oxford-Harvard guy.
Not even Rhodes scholars are Rhodes scholars.....
gcochran said...
The fraction of women who even know that IQ is significantly heritable could easily be bounded in a nutshell.
Not really. Women, at least upper-class women, knew what good genes were way before Darwin. They may have called it breeding instead of heritability and parts instead of intelligence but they knew what it was and cared about it. At least the smart ones did. I've just been re-reading Jane Austin's Emma and it really jumps out. Yours sincerely, a landscape gardener millionaire
"Cultural choices matter a lot here. Plumbers, air conditioning contractors, and electricians make very good incomes, but they don't generally read much or enjoy, say, the opera. If members of the skilled trades developed better taste in music and books, the chasm between Ms. Michigan State and Mr. Master Electrician would sharply narrow."
Like other commentors, I find this an unusual perspective. Michigan State grads spend alot of time at the Opera? (And opera is ipso facto better than popular country music?)
Is that really what women are thinking when looking for well educated men? Hymowitz frames her argument in practical terms. This poster makes a case for cultural affinity (with a heaping of snobbery to go along with it).
In any case, I'm surprised anyone gets married these days. Things aint like they used to be.
"The fraction of women who even know that IQ is significantly heritable could easily be bounded in a nutshell."
Most people, male and female, know IQ is significantly heritable. Whether they openly admit it or give it too much conscious thought is another matter (most people have better things to do than write about it on blogs). Don't you hear in casual conversation "oh, they'll have such smart children" or "his children will be idiots" or jokes on TV along those lines?
For the suggestion that picking up a high IQ "alpha" male and using him as a sperm donor, why would anyone want offspring from someone who likes picking up people in bars and using them for sex? I wouldn't want alpha male children.
Nothing is more annoying than HBD experts obsessing over IQ. You guys make it sound like IQ impacts everything, from the gravitational pull of galaxies to mate selection among people to GDP growth, etc, etc.
If there is one area that IQ does not impact, it is romance/mating behavior.
I live here in SF Bay Area and constantly see hot (and smart) daughters of wealthy White folks from places like Atherton, Woodside, Menlo Park chauffeuring around their Black or Mexican gangbanging boy friends in the VW Jetta’s that their dads bought them. Any child produced by that union will have a 20 pt bellow average IQ. Sure, some of these women might eventually settle down with a nerdy White guy with high IQ. If that does happen it will be when she is in her late 30s and done with partying, etc. But that’s not a sure thing.
Or maybe it’s the location where you guys live? Around here, smart white guys (meaning nerdy) don’t get laid and struggle with Women. If you guys live in an area where women prefer high IQ White guys, please let me know. I'll be on the first plane out of this hell hole.
"You think elite college students are really into opera and serious literature"
A significant portion of elite college students actually are into those things. I'm sure a smaller percentage than when I went to an Ivy League school, but a still meaningful one.
"I don't why I find it so jarring when you use the term 'dumb skanks.'
Not cool, man.'
Many people wouldn't think of buying a used car,but they'll happily take a used wife that has been driven around the block many times. Just about all women now are used by the time they get married. What gross society.
They are. Steve just calls it like it is. I don't know why there are so many of them now.
I didn't become a plumber because I wasn't smart enough to see what BS college is.
... combined with only moderately-high IQ and lots of bulging muscle. And no body hair.
None at all?
PR Intern, I had a similar reaction. It's out of keeping with Sailer's "voice" (like Dave Barry writing as precise craftsman rather than regular guy).
Jason Malloy on the fertility's correlation with education/IQ and wealth among men here.
Or, that guy in the bar who says he works for J.P. Morgan might actually work for J.T. Marlon, like in the movie "Boiler Room," and he bought that huge Rolex on his wrist in Chinatown for $20 because it impresses dumb skanks in bars like you.
But you're going to have all the fun of raising the biological spawn of two liars for the next 21 years
How dare you! I'll draw the line at you insulting my parents, and withdraw, sir.
One family's scandalous mishap is another's romantic family anecdote.
Why are All of you plebes assuming high I.Q.s for Harvard women?
This isn't Thurston Howell III's Harvard - its Barry Soetoro's...
Think liberal ballbuster or diversity chick. No High I.Q.!
gcochran said...
The fraction of women who even know that IQ is significantly heritable could easily be bounded in a nutshell.
Women don't have to know consciously that IQ is heritable to find signs of high IQ attractive because their genes recognize that having high IQ children is a good idea.
Women don't "know" that personality traits are heretable - but they sure act like they know it, don't they? Otherwise, why screen on personality traits when picking short term mates rather than using only physical traits?
Most working class guys have working class tastes because they've been culturally transmitted to them by their working class relatives. The highbrow tastes of the elite isn't something born of having a higher IQ. It's from being raised in that culture.
Although, from my exposure to my supposed social betters I don't find their tastes particularly highbrow. Apparently Dave Mathew's Band, The Wire, MST3K and anything dripping with irony and 80s nostalgia is the absolute height of culture. Not that there is anything wrong with any of those things, and I'm more willing to watch yet another episode of MST3K than an afternoon of NASCAR, but I don't find anything particularly 'cultured' about either of those things.
I've dated women that are my social betters, and from my experience they don't want high class so much a high class affectations. If your actual tastes do trend towards a more stereotypical upper class twit (such as mine do) that won't save you in her eyes. If you can walk the walk but not talk the talk, that's good enough. If vice versa is the case that isn't going to be good enough.
She has no desire to either go to a symphony or have a conversation about non-SWPL literature. She just wants to be with and be seen with a guy that could reasonably be presumed by be interested in those things by her peers.
"Marriage (and, thus, reproduction) is important enough to bring out the snob in everybody."
But it clearly does not.
Assortative mating is unlikely to produce a permanent high-IQ "caste", for the reason that the American upper middle class has a birthrate that is below replacement level. Two children per family are considered standard, but many people have none, and some only have one. A few people have more than 2 children, but not enough to make up for the ones who don't have any. Therefore, each generation is smaller than the one before it. This creates "openings" in the elite that are filled by ambitious individuals who move up from the lower classes. Today, many such openings are filled by immigrants.
Many family lines eventually die out. Over the generations there is a great deal of genetic replacement of the elite class.
>PR Intern, I had a similar reaction. ["Dumb skank like you" is] out of keeping with Sailer's "voice"<
Horse apples.
It's a hypothetical "you," exactly as the original commenter used it.
Reading comprehension, friends. Reading comprehension.
My advice to women who cannot secure a guy with a high IQ? Cuckold. Find a high iq alpha type guy at some bar where the hedge fund, wall street, or big law guys hang out. Go home with them and have unprotected sex, saying that you are on the pill. Just make sure his spawn could physically pass as being that of the beta. This way you will get to have smart children that will be provided for.
Private school tuition in Manhattan now costs more than $37,000 a year. Since your beta has a low IQ, let's hope he inherited lots of money.
Even 20+ years ago the supply of upper middle class marriageable men in DC was smaller than the supply of upper middle class marriageable women. I imagine the mismatch is worse now in DC and NY.
I know of one woman who went the artificial insemination route after despairing of finding a man. It has worked out for her. But raising three boys alone is a challenge even if you have money.
Steve,
I've been reading you for many years now and this is the angriest I've ever seen you get. It *is* cool, though. These women need whatever abuse that can be dished out. Unfortunately, it is so easy for their ploy to work due to ego. All that matters is the morals of the woman.
I've known my fair share of women who have cheated with married men and women who have tricked well-to-do men into a shotgun marriage. The personalities are so similar that I can't tell them apart and consider them of the same type. Every single cheater and tricker I've known, every last one, always had a screw loose or was extremely cruel.
But have you seen what a typical Harvard man looks like? I guess that's why assisted reproduction is so popular among the moneyed class.
"But the women at Florida State are infinitely hotter than the ones at Harvard, and most college students are looking to get married at age 21."
That's why so many Harvard men go on Spring break to Florida: for some easy poon. Thus begins their lifelong habit of working their Harvard affiliation into the first three sentences of every introduction.
"I confess I also don't want plumbers as children"
Why not?"
I have nothing against plumbers and realize they earn a decent amount. But I'd prefer my kids pursue career paths more similar to that of rest of my family and my SO's family. It's not like they would be forced to though, and like anyone else mainly I just hope my children end up better off than I am.
if you import a bunch of high IQ Indians, you're still importing Indians, and their descendents will revert to the Indian mean.
Is anyone ever going to explain the mechanosm by which this regression to the mean works? I've been asking for years, and I've never gotten an answer.
Speaking about an Indian mean is pointless because India is far more racially diverse even than the US.
We don't talk about American kids regressing to the American mean. We talk about white Americans regressing to the white mean and black Americans regressing to the black mean. In the same vein, Indian American kids regress to the mean of the particular racial group/caste. In other words, the Indian American kids in the US will regress to the means of the high IQ upper caste Indian groups.
Average Joe said...Also, I think most men - whether high IQ or not - would prefer a physically attractive low IQ female over a physically unattractive high IQ one.
That's true at the extremes. However, I find that reasonably presentable women who are smart are a lot sexier than more attractive women who have no conversation, don't get my jokes, have no idea what's going on, etc.
Also, intelligent women seem to keep themselves in better shape long term.
Back in 2008, Kay Hymowitz wrote a more in-depth treatment of today's mating habits:
http://www.city-journal.org/2008/18_4_darwinist_dating.html
Hymowitz's article was thoroughly dissected by Roissy in one of his best posts:
http://roissy.wordpress.com/2008/11/18/love-in-the-time-of-game/
I highly recommend this Roissy post. It is an insightful exploration of modern mating patterns, and their societal implications. He is quite analytical and philosophical. There is a lot more to Roissy than just pickup techniques.
Btw, what do those Nordic guys do for money? Get tested for IQ and then whank off all day in semen labs?
In 1987 I was visiting a friend at Cardozo Law School at Yeshiva U., and I pulled an ad off the bulletin board. It paid $50 a pop, up to 3 times a week.
My advice to women who cannot secure a guy with a high IQ? Cuckold. Find a high iq alpha type guy at some bar where the hedge fund, wall street, or big law guys hang out. Go home with them and have unprotected sex, saying that you are on the pill.
How many times have you had a married woman hit on you about nine months before she gives birth? It happened my first summer in Houston, when I was a summer associate and the wife of one of the litigators kept hitting on me really blatantly, and then the next summer my married Mexican secretary made a pass at me, and then a few years later a married lawyer I was working with in Dallas did the same. All had babies nine months later.
It happens.
"will women marry down?"
I hope so.
Unemployed Fat Guy
Cuckolding is probably more common than many people realize. A few years ago I researched my genealogy and got one of those ancestry-dna tests. My brother did the same. We compared notes, and discovered we have different Y-chromosomes.
"Find a high iq alpha type guy at some bar where the hedge fund, wall street, or big law guys hang out. Go home with them and have unprotected sex, saying that you are on the pill.
Yeah, because everyone knows those high IQ guys are that stupid."
Finally, a good post from Truth. What a coincidence, Sport, on the same day that my cat and dog went from arch enemies to spending all day having unprotected sex under the house.
"I have nothing against plumbers and realize they earn a decent amount. But I'd prefer my kids pursue career paths more similar to that of rest of my family and my SO's family."
Most people don't think multi-generationally when they select a mate. I know I didn't. I figured smarts were enough -- until I realized my wife had no talent or taste for music or art. Artistic and musical talent has been prevalent in my family for the past four generations up until my kids, who are quick witted philistines. I find myself wishing I had a child like that idiot savant on 60 minutes who could play Chopin from ear, even though he could barely tie his shoe laces. My high IQ kids suck.
"Or maybe it’s the location where you guys live? Around here, smart white guys (meaning nerdy) don’t get laid and struggle with Women. If you guys live in an area where women prefer high IQ White guys, please let me know. I'll be on the first plane out of this hell hole."
Only if you are religious. While religions have liberal communities within them they're much smaller and not as influential (traditional conservatives tend to rule and grow in numbers while the liberal religionists wane). About 9 out of 10 religious girls on religious dating websites are seeking providers or smart guys to spend their life with and worship/follow a deity. Some are quite attractive and many tend to be chaste virgins. The odd one out (1 out of 10) is the girl who is lying about being religious for whatever reason (to steal somebody's money for example). The landscape for Hindus, Muslims, Buddhists, Christians, Taoists, Jews and other religious people is not perfect but it is much better if you want to escape the nightmare you are in.
"From what I've observed the main concerns of guys are looks and personality, and other factors such as intelligence/ambition/family background aren't that much of a plus or minus in either direction."
Absolutely right, SouthernAnonyia. It's good to see politically incorrect truths in writing. That is just the way it works, no matter how much many females want nature to change for them.
David Davenport said...
"... combined with only moderately-high IQ and lots of bulging muscle. And no body hair."
None at all?
They could shave it. Bodybuilders do so.
Frankly, I'm also surprised Sailer hasn't made a distinction between being cultured and being intelligent
How cultured was Nancy Spungen, estimated IQ 190?
"Around here, smart white guys (meaning nerdy) don’t get laid and struggle with Women."
You need to learn some game. Start by reading Roissy. We can sit around and complain that women really should appreciate beta males more, or we can learn to change our behavior and be less beta. Which approach will do us more good?
The fraction of women who even know that IQ is significantly heritable could easily be bounded in a nutshell.
Jewish girls certainly know it. Try telling one that your IQ has been tested at four or five standard deviations above the Ashkenazi mean, and see what happens. The catch is that it has to be true.
People really do not know that IQ is highly heritable. They aren't just pretending. I would guess that this was far more widely known two centuries ago.
Women, most of them, are not automatically crazy about the smartest guy in the room. Trust me on this.
Yeah, girls are constantly knocking down the doors of high IQ men. When I go to the bars, I just show them a copy of my Tickle IQ score. Work every time.
The landscape for Hindus, Muslims, Buddhists, Christians, Taoists, Jews and other religious people is not perfect but it is much better if you want to escape the nightmare you are in.
And if you don't like those religions, or other ones not mentioned, you can always start your own, and recruit from Hollywood.
You need to learn some game. Start by reading Roissy. We can sit around and complain that women really should appreciate beta males more, or we can learn to change our behavior and be less beta. Which approach will do us more good?
I have read Roissy, and while his analysis is spot on, I don’t see it as being a solution for many (even most) betas who are seeking a relationship (rather than a fling). Quite simply, for a beta to act alpha requires them to be constantly “on”, not just during seduction but for the duration of the entire relationship. This would be simply exhausting and hence unsustainable. It would also be very dispiriting to the man knowing that the relationship is built on a lie.
No, the only proper solution is changing the social conditions so that Game is not so important.
"You need to learn some game. Start by reading Roissy. "
Alphas are really Omegas who are good liars and can pick sluts at bars.
"So all these PUAs are pure omega. Why do they call themselves "alpha"? Because lying is what they do best. Being a successful omega is all about falsely puffing up one's chest. But in reality they are the very lowest of men. Bonecrker explains it well:
“Badboys” are pussies, not alpha males. The easiest way to tell if a man is alpha is to observe if he has the respect and cooperation of other men, especially other men in general (i.e. he has power and respect in society, not just socially). You very rarely see a “badboy” meet these criteria. When you do, it’s usually an alpha fooling around to get laid.
Alpha males don’t usually get the chicks. They get the best chick and she tends to stick around and beat the shit out of any other girls who come around.
Link for above:
http://www.coalpha.org/Misuse-of-terms-like-quot-alpha-quot-td6095159.html
People really do not know that IQ is highly heritable. They aren't just pretending. I would guess that this was far more widely known two centuries ago.
Interesting. I've never encountered anyone who doesn't think IQ is heritable.
"No, the only proper solution is changing the social conditions so that Game is not so important."
I agree that changing the social conditions is a more ideal solution, but what are the chances of that happening within our lifetimes? Feminism is powerful and entrenched. There is not a single prominent politician who would dare oppose the feminists. Remember what happened to Larry Summers. Rolling back feminism will take decades. In the meantime, I have a life to live.
gcochran said...
The fraction of women who even know that IQ is significantly heritable could easily be bounded in a nutshell.
That better be a big nut.
Seems most Chinese, Korean, SE Asian Indian and Azkenazi women (big brain chasers) are acutely aware of this.
Alpha males don’t usually get the chicks. They get the best chick and she tends to stick around and beat the shit out of any other girls who come around.
That's because women don't like sharing men, much more so than men sharing women.
Superman gets Lois Lane and flies off into the sunset - and a million Lois Lane wannabees won't get over their teenage crushes and settle for anyone else, and don't marry, and a million good men can't find anyone to marry....
How many times have you had a married woman hit on you about nine months before she gives birth? It happened my first summer in Houston, when I was a summer associate and the wife of one of the litigators kept hitting on me really blatantly, and then the next summer my married Mexican secretary made a pass at me, and then a few years later a married lawyer I was working with in Dallas did the same. All had babies nine months later.
You fucking stud, you. Mum's the word, Ben.
"I don't why I find it so jarring when you[Steve Sailer] use the term 'dumb skanks.'
Not cool, man."
I find your presence here jarring and I know exactly why.
I thought Steve's description was apt but maybe you think duplicitous females going on the prowl are making the choices that they, as empowered women, have every right to make.
I agree that changing the social conditions is a more ideal solution, but what are the chances of that happening within our lifetimes? Feminism is powerful and entrenched. There is not a single prominent politician who would dare oppose the feminists. Remember what happened to Larry Summers. Rolling back feminism will take decades. In the meantime, I have a life to live.
Yeah, I understand what you are saying although I am not so pessimistic about the position of feminism. All it requires is massive economic collapse. Without the support of the liberal system everything reverts back to the natural order, which means nuclear families with a provider man at the head of the household. And does anyone really think that economic collapse is not on the way?
There has actually been lots of fiction about rich women abandoning everything to run off with a poor, outcast, or rebel hunk. But these stories are generally about women who feel constricted by social norms, unhappy marriages, or some such. Consider the movie MRS. SOFFEL.
But today, rich women have the freedom, the money, and independence, so there's less need to run off with some dashing hunk of lower order.
A doll may leave her husband's house but not her fancy penthouse in NY owned by herself.
That's because women don't like sharing men, much more so than men sharing women.
Let me rephrase that. On average, women hate to share the same man; but men don't really mind sharing the same woman all that much.
It all depends on what we mean by DOWN? I doubt if a female Harvard graduate will marry a janitor, but she may marry a reasonably successfully guy if he's good-looking and charming, especially if she's uggggggly. So, there's really down and somewhat down. There's a world of difference between a lawyer guy who graduated from Duke and a palooka still living in his mother's basement.
There are different kinds of ups and downs: money, looks, personality, intelligence, charm, etc.
There are lonely middle-aged women looking for some guy in their lives. Some of them grow desperate.
http://abclocal.go.com/kfsn/story?section=news/local&id=4892265
I'll bet a divorced rich woman with fading looks(but still horny for a man)will go with some guy who looks like Sean Connery even if he wasn't rich. And some guys play on this psychology, just like Obama played on white/Jewish psychology to win favors in college admission, grades, and etc.
And there have been plenty of aging/fading Hollywood actresses who hooked up with lesser actors or even nobodies cuz they had the had the charm and style(and utter shamelessness.) Didn't some good-looking putz once sue Joan Collins for having been her longtime lover?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JFvujknrBuE
But she had a thing for Jake.
Stan said...
I agree that changing the social conditions is a more ideal solution, but what are the chances of that happening within our lifetimes? Feminism is powerful and entrenched. There is not a single prominent politician who would dare oppose the feminists. Remember what happened to Larry Summers. Rolling back feminism will take decades. In the meantime, I have a life to live.
Quite frankly, female androids are more likely in our lifetimes than any serious rollback of modern feminism.
Hymowitz won't also acknowledge that women won't marry ... BETA MALES. Most women would rather be single mothers with a bad boy kid than married to a "smart" Beta male from say, Caltech or Harvey Mudd.
She's right on social class, as far as that goes. College Educated Women actually increased their support for Obama over 2008 to 56% from 52%. Snob appeal.
Harvard guys of course will marry an ultra-hot bikini model over some Vassar hag unless she's loaded. Then they'll cheat like Client #9.
"No, the only proper solution is changing the social conditions so that Game is not so important."
Perhaps, but betas are as in demand as ugly girls.
The reverse is true Anon -- Men don't put much into a woman they share. She's basically a sex toy that talks, and shared women generate zero zilch nada parental investment in any kid they produce. As Steve notes, this is the case in West Africa (and the Black Ghetto).
Women, on the other hand, don't mind sharing POWERFUL men much because a tenth of a Prince's fortune is worth all of lowly beta male's attentions.
Christianity curbs women's desire to be harem-dwellers, and Alphas to construct soft or hard harems. Making society "deeper" and more resilient than just an Alpha and his harem. Or, making humans of us not a pride of lions.
FWIW, Charles Murray notes that the White middle class is rapidly moving towards lower class norms of illegitimacy (around 40%).
I can't find the link, but I saw somewhere the numbers for women who have children by different men, it was about 53% for Latinos, around 68% for Blacks, and 38% for Whites (note: IIRC that included remarriage families). Parental investment of non-custodial children once the wife re-married was also non-existent, across races.
There's a world of difference between a lawyer guy who graduated from Duke and a palooka still living in his mother's basement.
How about a lawyer guy graduated from Duke still living in his mother's basement because he can't find any jobs to pay off his student loans?
Again this Hymowitz woman misuses "alpha." The muscular, studly surfer or plumber who is sexually attractive and superior to women is alpha, not the Harvard dork who works in an office. No, women don't want to "walk down the aisle" with the surfer or plumber. They want to have his kids and to have the schmuck they "walk down the aisle" with pay her to raise them.
What a stupid writer she is.
Whiskey:
The reverse is true Anon -- Men don't put much into a woman they share.
Hogamous higamous.
Men are polygamous.
Women are monogamous.
Men are simply better sharers of women than women are sharers of men. Women want to hook up with one special man, who may or may not be an alpha superjock.
She's basically a sex toy that talks, and shared women generate zero zilch nada parental investment in any kid they produce. As Steve notes, this is the case in West Africa (and the Black Ghetto).
And the nerd ghetto - not!
Women, on the other hand, don't mind sharing POWERFUL men much because a tenth of a Prince's fortune is worth all of lowly beta male's attentions.
For women, power made sharing a man more palatable. You think women want to be in a harem? Other than the obvious matter of availability, high levels of power are the reason why harems were for kings, princes, cult leaders, and NBA stars rather than the common schmuck.
Given equal amounts of power, a woman is more likely to be "shared" by men, than a man by women.
Christianity curbs women's desire to be harem-dwellers, and Alphas to construct soft or hard harems.
Monogamy was a western thing long before Christianity came on the scene. The Greeks and Romans for all their sexual hijinks never had the harems of the East, whether formal or informal.
Based upon how many attractive girls I see with dogsh*t boyfriends- high school dropouts, thugs, drug addicts, etc. I'd have to say that Kay is ignoring a major piece of the puzzle. In fact, for many young women those types of guys are the prize. Sure, by the time they get into their 30s they've had enough experience to realize, "hey, this guy isn't such a good husband/provider/father", but by then for many its too late. I guess when society was turned on its head, and losers became defined as winners, then that's to be expected.
"Again this Hymowitz woman misuses "alpha." The muscular, studly surfer or plumber who is sexually attractive and superior to women is alpha, not the Harvard dork who works in an office."
- The surfer boy is alpha in HS, maybe into college (until he flunks out). After that the Harvard boy is alpha, and surfer boy hands him fries at the McD drivethru.
"Cuckolding is probably more common than many people realize. A few years ago I researched my genealogy and got one of those ancestry-dna tests. My brother did the same. We compared notes, and discovered we have different Y-chromosomes."
So I can call your mum a slag and you just have to accept it? Awesome. I think you mean your half-brother by the way...
"Quite frankly, female androids are more likely in our lifetimes than any serious rollback of modern feminism."
Would they be called gynoids?
At the largish company where I work, there is no shortage of prole secretaries, who have health insurance and pension benefits, who are more than happy to clutter up our online "For Sale" bulletin boards with ads for their hubby's handyman "business."
These get deleted quickly by the beta techies - you see, the paper-pushers aren't actually selling anything; they're advertising a service.
Since the women are obviously the main breadwinner and dutifully get up at 6 a.m. to schlep the kids to daycare and go to work all day, they have married down.
Women will go as low as they have to as long as it means avoiding the dreaded beta.
"Yeah, I don't think too many women want Woody Allen's sperm."
Odd reference. The biological son of Mia Farrow and Woody Allen is preternaturally gorgeous and brilliant (entered college at 11.) He's also a logician who banished Woody from his life on moral/ethical grounds, though maternal influence undoutedly was brought to bear. So there you are. Genetic offspring, within certain perameters, are as much a crap shoot as adopted one. So if you look like Mia Farrow & Allen looked 20 some years ago, might not be too bad.
Caveat: Gorgeous as this son is, it is true that he "has his father's eyes."
A lot of you guys seem to live in a very different world than I do. Most of my friends from college are married, and overwhelmingly they stayed with their first wife. Many have kids.
Just a thought: perhaps picking up women in bars is not the optimal way to find someone to build a life with? Try church, or graduate classes, or poetry readings at a coffeeshop, or join a choir, or....
Also, not to put too fine a point on it, obsessing over whether you can get her into bed right away, or whether she's an 8 or better, may also not be the best way to build a life with someone.
Dunno about this. Harvard has quite a few attractive women and some really ugly chicks. Most Florida State students are probably mediocre in terms of facial attractiveness, although they are probably more likely to have a vulgar bodily attractiveness.
LOL, you must be crazy and you clearly don't know too much about Southern football party schools, they're the best place to go to see mass numbers of attractive white women. I've never heard anyone talking about Ivy league women for their hotness, even the semi-cute ones are weird, introverted, feminist or aloof.
For instance, Jenn Sterger was the "FSU Girl" for many years and then "somehow" got a reporting job with ESPN.
http://www.popcrunch.com/hottest-student-bodies-the-50-best-colleges-ranked-by-looks-1-10/
And at Spring Break no one in Panama City or Daytona is jumping into bed with some nerdy northeastern guys just because they're bragging about being from Hah-vahd.
"On average, women hate to share the same man; but men don't really mind sharing the same woman all that much."
That makes little sense in light of cultural history. I would say the opposite is more the case, if only out of sheer pragmatism. Really, in the best of all possible world, both genders would prefer to be the one-and-only for their significant other, while keeping their own options open. Self-restraint, discipline and security for offspring, can be such a drag for those who want it all.
Today (and the next and the next, etc.), there will be several dozen teenaged girls murdered by family members in various eastern locales, most for perceived or real improprieties that we here would rate strictly PG. "Feminism" always seems to be loudest where it is least needed.
Let's! said...
Women will go as low as they have to as long as it means avoiding the dreaded beta.
This is sadly true. This is going unmentioned in all articles discussing this issue.
A lot of young men put in huge amounts of work, believing money=women. It's not that simple.
If you work in tech, you probably know many guys who earn six figures but go home alone.
ReginaldB,
The surfer type is also usually USC West Coast Law type and is still alpha.
There are two types of Hardvard students. The final clubs type and the beta types. The beta types are still terrible with women after graduating.
"The fraction of women who even know that IQ is significantly heritable could easily be bounded in a nutshell."
If you asked your average woman, "Do you think that IQ is significantly heritable," she'd look at you funny.
If you asked your average woman, "Do you think smart parents tend to have smart kids," she'd probably say yes.
"Also, I think most men - whether high IQ or not - would prefer a physically attractive low IQ female over a physically unattractive high IQ one. After all, do you really think that guys care about a woman's intelligence when they are watching porn?"
For sex, or marriage? Men will sleep with any woman, but we can be pretty discriminating when it comes to actually shacking up. Especially smart ones.
"The landscape for Hindus, Muslims, Buddhists, Christians, Taoists, Jews and other religious people is not perfect but it is much better if you want to escape the nightmare you are in."
I could convert. Question for the evangelicals here: how useful is it to be a religion nerd? I could learn Greek to read the Vulgate and come up with my own interpretations. ;)
" The fraction of women who even know that IQ is significantly heritable could easily be bounded in a nutshell.
Jewish girls certainly know it. Try telling one that your IQ has been tested at four or five standard deviations above the Ashkenazi mean, and see what happens. The catch is that it has to be true.
4/18/11 9:13 PM
Blogger gcochran said...
People really do not know that IQ is highly heritable. They aren't just pretending. I would guess that this was far more widely known two centuries ago.
Women, most of them, are not automatically crazy about the smartest guy in the room. Trust me on this."
Hey that was quite a subtle, self shoulder pat there, Barack.
you clearly don't know too much about Southern football party schools, they're the best place to go to see mass numbers of attractive white women.
I can attest to your observation about the hotness of girls from Southern football schools. The biggest crowd of hotties I ever saw was in Jacksonville during a game against Georgia State. Thousands of incredibly hot blonde college girls everywhere you looked. Muslim paradise and its measly 72 virgins ain't got nuthin' on a Southern town during the Big Game.
Dunno about this. Harvard has quite a few attractive women and some really ugly chicks. Most Florida State students are probably mediocre in terms of facial attractiveness, although they are probably more likely to have a vulgar bodily attractiveness.
Probably? Probably? You're speculating, very poorly.
"Btw, what do those Nordic guys do for money? Get tested for IQ and then whank off all day in semen labs?"
Makes sense to turn a hobby into a business.
"Just a thought: perhaps picking up women in bars is not the optimal way to find someone to build a life with? Try church, or graduate classes, or poetry readings at a coffeeshop, or join a choir, or...."
Exactly. My attractive single friend with whom I share a birthday can't figure out why she can't find anyone to marry on the online dating sites. I keep telling her if I were husband-hunting, I'd tell all the culturally conservative women I know that I was available so they could keep a look-out for decent guys for me. I'd go to church, on nature walks, anywhere that nice guys who are good company if not exactly scintillating can be found.
When I say marriage is a job, most people look horrified. They automatically think of sheer drudgery. But I have more in mind that it's rewarding work. You should look for a mate the same way you'd look for a good employment situation. Honest and practical assessment of yourself and others is key.
"Most working class guys have working class tastes because they've been culturally transmitted to them by their working class relatives. The highbrow tastes of the elite isn't something born of having a higher IQ. It's from being raised in that culture."
Not sure. I have a step-son whose father was of Jewish working-class background but who was raised from an early age in an upper-middle-class home with impeccable bobo taste. Yet when he went out on his own he furnished his house in nouveau-vulgarity Ashkenazi style such as he had never been exposed to in his life. Made me wonder if there might be a genetic element to taste. Just sayin'.
gcochran said:
"People really do not know that IQ is highly heritable. They aren't just pretending. I would guess that this was far more widely known two centuries ago.
Women, most of them, are not automatically crazy about the smartest guy in the room. Trust me on this."
Not the smartest maybe but certainly not the dumbest. Status, family, wit, sense of humor, looks all come into play.
Super-smart, non-confomist, fearlessly-contrarian risk-takers are another matter. :)
I like you though! :)
Has Greg Cochran ever been right about anything other than the Iraq War? Everyone knows that intelligence is largely heritable - that smart people tend to have smart kids and dumb people tend to have dumb kids.
That people - both men and women - tend to have priorities other than IQ when selecting a mate is another matter entirely.
TGGP: "Your great-great-grandmother most probably did not cuckold her spouse, at least if your last name is Sykes."
Interesting link. There is circumstantial evidence that Abraham Lincoln's father was not Thomas Lincoln. Abe himself admitted to a friend that his birth mother was "lascivious."
And there is even less doubt his grandmother on his mother's side was illegitimate, by some "unknown Virginia planter" in Abe's imagination.
How long before we see the DNA evidence?
Is anyone ever going to explain the mechanosm by which this regression to the mean works? I've been asking for years, and I've never gotten an answer.
This will be like the blind leading the blind, but I tried reading up on it once and the impression that I got was that smart people (to choose a trait at "random" hehe) got somewhat lucky, and their kids tend not to get as lucky. Regression to the mean is a group thing (though it is predictive for individuals) - parents can have kids smarter than themselves.
The impression I got from not understanding most of what I read is:
A and B are smart genes, everything else are average genes.
Jane: Acdefg
John: Bdeghi
Their kid: cdefgh
Basically, from what I understand, there tons of genes that contribute to many traits, and the tendency in reproduction is to contribute the norm, not the exception. But regression toward the mean isn't some ironclad rule, it's just a tendency. Which is why population selection over time, or eugenics, can trump it.
Okay, time for someone to come along and tell me I know nothing of genetics. Like I didn't already know that. :P
Educated women tend not to have high IQ's. The subjects they take in college do not require it. I'd say the typical "communications major" is not any more intelligent than a plumber, and is probably a good deal less so.
My advice to women who cannot secure a guy with a high IQ?
They need to look harder. There are many more high IQ men than there are high IQ women.
Oh, you guys... Don't fall for Roissy's PAU bullshit. Fix your flaws (lose weight, practice conversation skills, become more interesting by pursuing a few non-fandom based passions, ect.), be self-aware, try to enjoy life and keep meeting people. That's the advise I'd give to a little brother AND a little sister.
Don't you see? These pathetic PAU type clowns are the equivalents of the feminazis. These people tend to fail at some major measure of a successful life (mating, career or both), but because they completely lack personal responsibility and true desire to improve their lives, they prefer to blame someone else. The opposite gender is always convenient because these losers hope to mask their all consuming longing for a romantic partner with loud disdain. That's an old trick from middle school: "You know what? I wouldn't go out with him even if he asked me, even if he BEGGED". A couple of years back, when I was losing my college 15, I frequented some weight loss message boards. They were full of the angry man boys and feminazi types. There, I learned that the angry man boys were fat because since feminism took the women out of the kitchen, nobody valued healthy home cooking anymore. You see, women like to get fat because that's a way of spitting into men's faces, and they don't care about anyone's health. Feminazis, on the other hand, all got fat strictly because of the patriarchy. Apparently, their fathers, boyfriends (back when they had them) and random men on TV force poor little girls to feel bad about their bodies, starve, ruin their metabolisms and get fat. Tragic. These types of people can't even take responsibility for what their own hands put into their own mouths. Of course, they can't imagine assuming an active personal role in attracting, engaging and maintaining a relationship with another human being.
Only the lowest quality of women fall for Roissy's definition of "alpha", the kind that can be picked up at a bar. Their equivalents are the men who fall for mellon sized, round implants, fake acrylic nails, the generic "hot" haircut of the decade and 6 inch heels. These people don't know what a real man/woman is, so they substitute masculinity/femininity with fake image builders and vulgarity.
As for marrying down... Imho, most women want to be dominated both physically and mentally by their men. If the plumber is more quick witted and better read than I am, as well as interested in a variety of stuff, then his occupation wouldn't hinder his chances. However, I've never dated anyone bellow my level of education simply because they are not in my social circle. Of course, I do interact with mechanics, skilled construction guys and the like once in a while. However, their number is so small in comparison to the number of people I come in contact with overall that the probability that the man within the right ranges of age and culture with whom I'll develop mutual chemistry will be a skilled tradesman is very low.
Okay, back to lesson prep,
Maya
"- The surfer boy is alpha in HS, maybe into college (until he flunks out). After that the Harvard boy is alpha, and surfer boy hands him fries at the McD drivethru."
See, this is why we can't have nice things.
Need a new well rounded native nobility, not a bunch of fuckn nerds
To clarify: he will still be banging hotter girls than you - no doubt this will inspire nerd rage.
How can we restore the dignity of the upper class?
"...I dont want plumbers as children." Of course not. How could they lift those big wrenches?
I could learn Greek to read the Vulgate and come up with my own interpretations. ;)
Your interpretations on the Greek text would be unique, since the Vulgate is in Latin.
"I could convert. Question for the evangelicals here: how useful is it to be a religion nerd? I could learn Greek to read the Vulgate and come up with my own interpretations. ;) "
Pretty useful, if and only, if you want the submissive type who wants to go totally natural, always available, no birth control, and have as many kids and you can father. I know a couple of these chicks. They have a bunch of kids. They are thin, sweet, thrifty, hardworking and feminine with a capital F. Interestingly, the two I know are both light redheads with cute little noses (I love cute little noses on women, because I have a big nose). Their husbands have advanced degrees, are super calm and in control and love them to pieces.
But it only works if that is who you really are. You can't fake that.
In the upper middle class suburb I live in, it's not uncommon to see pretty white and sometimes Latino or Asian girls with black guys. Trust me, the brothers are having no problem with the ladies. A black guy that dresses well and is clean cut, educated, etc. will do well. Especially in an area with few blacks.
Asian and Indian women aren't looking specifically for a high IQ man. They're looking for a man with good earning potential. They'll take a doctor, lawyer, corporate manager, successful entreprenuer, etc. They won't take a guy doing a Master's degree in comparative literature. Trust me, these ethnic groups are money and prestige driven. High IQ, no money? Then stay away. Jews are a little different, as they value money and intelligence.
From my experience, women like guys that can use their intelligence towards materialistic or status seeking ends - making money, managing/manipulating people, climbing the corporate ladder, earning prestige, sports, social situations. There's got to be a pay off. Otherwise, it's pretty useless. If a guy's intelligence leads into unmasculine geeky or eccentric behavior, then it's harmful.
Roissy posted a new story on his blog about traits women find attractive/unattractive. Intelligence came out as a neutral trait.
Women don't give a damn about Harvard unless it lead to an i-banking or consulting job. Fact.
Nothing is more annoying than HBD experts obsessing over IQ. You guys make it sound like IQ impacts everything, from the gravitational pull of galaxies to mate selection among people to GDP growth, etc, etc.
If there is one area that IQ does not impact, it is romance/mating behavior.
I live here in SF Bay Area and constantly see hot (and smart) daughters of wealthy White folks from places like Atherton, Woodside, Menlo Park chauffeuring around their Black or Mexican gangbanging boy friends in the VW Jetta’s that their dads bought them. Any child produced by that union will have a 20 pt bellow average IQ. Sure, some of these women might eventually settle down with a nerdy White guy with high IQ. If that does happen it will be when she is in her late 30s and done with partying, etc. But that’s not a sure thing.
Or maybe it’s the location where you guys live? Around here, smart white guys (meaning nerdy) don’t get laid and struggle with Women. If you guys live in an area where women prefer high IQ White guys, please let me know. I'll be on the first plane out of this hell hole
Sometime back, there was a news story about a girl in San Jose that placed an ad on a dating site. One of the requirements: No Indians need apply. That led to a flood of comments about why women in Silicon Valley will date whites, Latinos, blacks, etc. but not Indian guys, despite their success in making big money in the computer industry.
I guess being a low-testosterone beta male really is the kiss of death.
"Yeah, I don't think too many women want Woody Allen's sperm."
Looked up their off-spring, and I would say almost all of his good-looks come from mom. Mia Farrow was extremely attractive in her day, and I remember seeing her in that Omen remake a few years back and would say she has aged extremely well, far better than any other Hollywood starlet from that era.
' Karen said...
I could learn Greek to read the Vulgate and come up with my own interpretations. ;)
Your interpretations on the Greek text would be unique, since the Vulgate is in Latin."
Hey, a snarky, female version of me; now THAT is sexy.
Yeah, rosissy's advice works..... but for the wrong type of women. Women that are attention seekers or neurotic or emotionally abused by bad relationships. Not quality girls. When he says that a guy should constantly demean his girl/wife and keep her on edge, that's not good advice for a happy relationship. You will attract the wrong type of girl and have a very volatile relationship.
I've known a number of girls that are attracted to nice guys. Especially religious girls. You don't want to be wimpy or girly, but being an alright guy (provided you're still a masculine guy) won't kill you. Trust me.
The problem with the "beta male" is that he's probably overweight, socially akward, financially not that successful, neurotic, and emotionally/physically weak. With those sort of traits, even nice girls aren't going to go for you. If the beta fixes him self up, I think he can do okay.
Also, bars are a bad place for going after girls if you're not a natural alpha. It's like running in the Boston marathon if you can't make it up a flight of stairs. You're better off pursuing women through social activities (church, club, friend parties, weddings).
"I guess being a low-testosterone beta male really is the kiss of death."
I think being an abusive, paunchy, pale-skin-obsessed misogynist is the kiss of death.
"I think being an abusive, paunchy, pale-skin-obsessed misogynist is the kiss of death."
Whiskey would strongly disagree.
"Based upon how many attractive girls I see with dogsh*t boyfriends- high school dropouts, thugs, drug addicts, etc. I'd have to say that Kay is ignoring a major piece of the puzzle."
This is pretty rare beyond high school, at least where I'm from. The only attractive girls I see with crappy boyfriends like you described are head-cases with "daddy issues"....Girls from stable families generally don't pull that kind of stunt, despite all the claims on the internet to the contrary. BUt then again, perhaps the dating scene is different in certain regions of the U.S?
"- The surfer boy is alpha in HS, maybe into college (until he flunks out). After that the Harvard boy is alpha, and surfer boy hands him fries at the McD drivethru."
Nobody outside the Northeast cares about Harvard, amigo. And you know damn well there aren't many attractive surfer guys who work at McDs past the age of 17 or so.
The surfer guy will probably eventually get a college degree and live a comfortable life with his family in the suburbs. He'll probably have more time to be with his children, too.
I swear, some of the commentators here are the male version of the various jealous feminists who constantly bemoan "beauty standards." Some of you unfortunately assume that an attractive appearance/normal demeanor and intelligence are somehow mutually exclusive.
"Educated women tend not to have high IQ's. The subjects they take in college do not require it. I'd say the typical "communications major" is not any more intelligent than a plumber, and is probably a good deal less so."
Well of course not, it's communications. But the average female biology/nursing/business/poli sci etc major etc is probably pretty intelligent relative to the average population and it's silly to pretend otherwise. And all of those majors are either majority female or are close to having a majority of females. I mean, where else would high IQ females be, other than college? With men there is a little more variation since there is a wider variety of decent jobs for them that don't require a college degree. Plus a fair amount of relatively intelligent guys join the military.
Re Vulgate: yes, you are right. Dang!
Maybe I'll stay an agnostic...
Not sure. I have a step-son whose father was of Jewish working-class background but who was raised from an early age in an upper-middle-class home with impeccable bobo taste. Yet when he went out on his own he furnished his house in nouveau-vulgarity Ashkenazi style such as he had never been exposed to in his life. Made me wonder if there might be a genetic element to taste. Just sayin'.
Thank God he wasn't Persian!
Difference maker:
Need a new well rounded native nobility, not a bunch of fuckn nerds
You sound like an educrat.
Besides, the old style nobility was a class of obsessive dilletantes (i.e. nerds) with the money and leisure to follow their dreams.
I SAID: "Again this Hymowitz woman misuses "alpha." The muscular, studly surfer or plumber who is sexually attractive and superior to women is alpha, not the Harvard dork who works in an office."
REGINALD B SAID: - The surfer boy is alpha in HS, maybe into college (until he flunks out). After that the Harvard boy is alpha, and surfer boy hands him fries at the McD drivethru.
I RESPOND: No Reginald, that's wishful thinking. Alpha and beta are not defined by socioeconomic status, but by sexual status. As another commenter said, the surfer guy will still be pulling hotter pussy than you even if you make more money. And what is your money good for anyway? You're in an office all day while he bangs hot chicks. You return home to a harridan wife, and he's free. You'll get to retire at 60 I guess, and you get to hire a Mexican to mow your lawn, which is more than most of the world can say, so I guess that's something.
Also your wife might like your money, but she'll have his kid and make you think it's yours, or want to, or think about him while you're having lame intercourse with her.
Not a good deal for the nerd in the end, I'm afraid, even with the empty status of a golden-handcuffs job well into old age.
The heart of woman is very dark.
The ultimate form of marrying down is to marry one outside one's race...simply because by marrying outside one's race one will pass on fewer of his or her own genes.
"I guess being a low-testosterone beta male really is the kiss of death."
There are lots of dorkettes who go for dorks. Not to worry.
"Looked up their off-spring, and I would say almost all of his good-looks come from mom. Mia Farrow was extremely attractive in her day, and I remember seeing her in that Omen remake a few years back and would say she has aged extremely well, far better than any other Hollywood starlet from that era."
I dunno... she always looked like a skull-head to me.
Asian and Indian women aren't looking specifically for a high IQ man. They're looking for a man with good earning potential. They'll take a doctor, lawyer, corporate manager, successful entreprenuer, etc. They won't take a guy doing a Master's degree in comparative literature. Trust me, these ethnic groups are money and prestige driven. High IQ, no money? Then stay away. Jews are a little different, as they value money and intelligence.
Yes and no. I can only speak for Oriental women but they value education as a signal for earning potential AND status. It doesn’t matter how successful you are, if you don’t have that Masters, forget about it.
"In the upper middle class suburb I live in, it's not uncommon to see pretty white and sometimes Latino or Asian girls with black guys. Trust me, the brothers are having no problem with the ladies. A black guy that dresses well and is clean cut, educated, etc. will do well. Especially in an area with few blacks."
It's too bad because a white woman is essentially throwing away her ancestry if she procreates with a non-white.
Asians/Indians have a lot of money, education, and professional jobs. How well do they do with the ladies?
"Alpha and beta are not defined by socioeconomic status, but by sexual status."
Or, alternately, alpha and beta are misused terms from animal biology that have no real meaning whatever and damage the credibility of anyone who insists on using them.
It's too bad because a white woman is essentially throwing away her ancestry if she procreates with a non-white.
What about a white man who breeds with an Asian woman? Isn't he also throwing away his ancestry?
Yes and no. I can only speak for Oriental women but they value education as a signal for earning potential AND status. It doesn’t matter how successful you are, if you don’t have that Masters, forget about it.
Interesting. I happen to have a master's (in engineering) and it doesn't seem to confer much in the way of either status or earning potential, much less sex appeal.
There are lots of dorkettes who go for dorks. Not to worry.
The dorks don't want dorkettes.
It's true that plenty of women like dorks. Dorky women, that is. I'm in law school in NYC and many girls both in and out of school here I see with herby, dorky looking men.
It's too bad because a white woman is essentially throwing away her ancestry if she procreates with a non-white.
We get it. Now do some procreating of your own instead of worrying about what people you don't know are doing.
What's that? All Quiet On The Female Front? Well I for one am shocked.
I happen to have a master's (in engineering) and it doesn't seem to confer much in the way of either status or earning potential, much less sex appeal.
That's because it doesn't. That guy seems to think his imported bride is impressed with his Master's.
FYI: There's a lot of talk in here about Harvard MBAs. NOTE: Aside from the most alpha (in the Roissy sense) topdogs, these are the men that women look for in their late twenties/early thirties when they want to settle down. Their prime years are spent on hipster struggling musician types, i.e. 'mistakes.'
"Interesting. I happen to have a master's (in engineering) and it doesn't seem to confer much in the way of either status or earning potential, much less sex appeal."
Are you physically attractive and socially pleasant? Personally, I require a healthy body fat % with natural muscle tone and a certain level of comfort with self, as a minimum. The reason i ask is that some people forget that other people would like to be sexually attracted to their romantic partners. How about you, sir? Would you marry a super obese, emotionally unstable woman with a small beard if she was a really, really nice person? I'm not at all suggesting that you are such a woman, of course, just making a point.
Maya
Their prime years are spent on hipster struggling musician types, i.e. 'mistakes.'
I.e. dorks, but arty dorks.
Jack:
herby, dorky looking men.
I'm glad that I'm a carny dork rather than a herby dork (vegetarian?)
I.e. dorks, but arty dorks
I don't think you've met the kind of guy I'm talking about...
Severn:
"Educated women tend not to have high IQ's. The subjects they take in college do not require it. I'd say the typical "communications major" is not any more intelligent than a plumber, and is probably a good deal less so."
I decided to investigate your hypothesis with the GSS here.
Walter:
"The ultimate form of marrying down is to marry one outside one's race...simply because by marrying outside one's race one will pass on fewer of his or her own genes."
Using that logic, the optimal breeding strategy is the most incestuous. But it's wrong, because you are looking at the level of an individual rather than the gene. Let's say there are a pair of whites and blacks, WM, WF, BM, and BF. For our hypothetical imagine that each individual shares half of their genes across race and the other half across sex. If you divide them into MF pairs, any way you slice it the same genes get passed on to the next generation. So we have to ask whether the hypothetical white partner who did not marry the race-mixer was "freed up" to have other children or not. Of course, if your concern is preserving fairly "pure" strains rather than total gene prevalence (what evolution selects for) that's another story.
Using that logic, the optimal breeding strategy is the most incestuous.
That's the Arab breeding strategy!
Two generations ago, women that came from money would often get daddy to employ their attractive but underachieving husband in the family business. Snagging a rich wife was not considered a bad thing for those who could. This would allow women to “marry down” the socio-economic hierarchy but marry up with a man who was physically attractive and possibly smart but who came from a poor family. This type of nepotism was more common when profit margins were higher and deals were cut on the golf course or country club. What has killed this in part has been the relentless drives towards corporatization where there is less fat and outside shareholders call the shots.
Cultural choices matter a lot here. Plumbers, air conditioning contractors, and electricians make very good incomes, but they don't generally read much or enjoy, say, the opera.
Karen, how many straight men with Ivy League educations enjoy the opera? I have a good pedigree myself, but I would be bored out of my mind at the opera. In my estimation, the type of man who enjoys the opera is typically gay and is therefore definitely not the type who would want to marry a woman with an Ivy League education.
In my estimation, the type of man who enjoys the opera is typically gay and is therefore definitely not the type who would want to marry a woman with an Ivy League education.
That's a stereotype I've never found any real evidence for. I know probably a couple of dozen men (most of them non-Ivy) who enjoy opera, and as far as I know none of them is gay. Most of them are married and have kids. Many of them also follow football, baseball, basketball, etc. Not a swisher in the bunch.
But maybe your gaydar is more finely attuned than mine.
"The dorks don't want dorkettes"
Speak for yourself! ;) (But it's often true...)
"I'm in law school in NYC and many girls both in and out of school here I see with herby, dorky looking men."
Glasses and no makeup?
Re gays and opera, I looked into the GSS here.
I went to a liberal arts college that required all students do significant course work in history, art, music, religion and philosophy. In the last music lecture of our senior year the professor said something like, "nobody really likes this opera stuff, its just pretension," and I thought he was letting his hair down and leveling with us after his petalogical duties were forfulled.
Now, neraly 40 years later I realize that his last speach was putting us on. It was a joke and the butt was us. Opera is a crowning achievement of Western Culture combining the theature arts, music, poetry and drama at the highest levels. It is based on Greek culture and the same operas have been enjoyed by people for hundreds of years. Its themes are universal. Some people can;t appreciate it. Some people can;t appreciate anything above NASCAR.
"Let's say there are a pair of whites and blacks, WM, WF, BM, and BF. For our hypothetical imagine that each individual shares half of their genes across race and the other half across sex"
Huh? There are 23 pairs of chromosomes.
Racial characteristics are carried on many of them. Sex differences are determined by only 1 (The X and its partner, another X or the Y).
You as a White man have faaaaar more genes in common with a White woman (distributed across all 22 somatic chromosomes) than you would with a Black man (having only the Y, sex-determining, gene in common).
Really? 192 comments on THIS topic?
"Alpha males don’t usually get the chicks. They get the best chick and she tends to stick around and beat the shit out of any other girls who come around."
Alpha males are the men who've never noticed they're married to the smartest, toughest women.
Not convinced the average university educated "liberal" woman would be marrying down intellectually by marrying her plumber. Plumbing is actually a pretty complicated job. Being a hospital diversity officer isn't. Plumbing can also pay pretty well, even if the hours can be unsocial. Pay very well indeed if you don't declare it all to the taxman. And a university education is no longer much sign of a superior intellect.
"Quite frankly, female androids are more likely in our lifetimes than any serious rollback of modern feminism."
It's built on the back of the extended welfare state. Gone in a decade or two. Maybe less.
James Kabala--
No you're wrong, and trying to obfuscate. Probably because you don't want to accept that women are how they are. They want strong, handsome, dominant young men to impregnate them. That can be called an "alpha male" by analogy. Any man who does not take this into account in dealing with a woman is setting himself up for a big fall.
They don't care about degrees, money, etc., except insofar as they can fool a guy with these things to raise the other guy's kid.
TGGP said...
Re gays and opera, I looked into the GSS here.
That's interesting. Thanks for crunching the data, TGGP.
"Not convinced the average university educated "liberal" woman would be marrying down intellectually by marrying her plumber. Plumbing is actually a pretty complicated job. Being a hospital diversity officer isn't. Plumbing can also pay pretty well, even if the hours can be unsocial. Pay very well indeed if you don't declare it all to the taxman. And a university education is no longer much sign of a superior intellect."
It's not marrying down intellectually, it's about class. Plumbing is considered low-class, even though it pays well and is actually pretty hard, because you work with your hands and get dirty. Upper-middle-class ladies usually don't like that.
Give me Klingon opera instead!
JSM, the assumption was just for simplicity. It doesn't matter. Maybe I shouldn't have even mentioned it. The point is that as long as the other partner still has the same number of children, the number of gene-copies is the same.
Anonymous, I'm glad you appreciate it. I have never taken a course in statistics, but the gss interface is easy to use. I don't know about the other blogging platforms, but wordpress has a visdual mode where I can just copy and paste the tables without mucking about in the details of html (though I do that sometimes for my own purposes). Anyone can start a blog for free and do the same thing. If you have a curiosity, just look it up and share the results.
Anonymous: I'm not denying that many women feel that way - I am simply denying that "alpha male" is a useful or meaningful term. The inability of any comment thread here to agree on what the term means is a sign of its inutility.
" it's about class. Plumbing is considered low-class, even though it pays well and is actually pretty hard, because you work with your hands and get dirty. Upper-middle-class ladies usually don't like that."
In which case this class thing only works if the wealthy people at the bottom accept their position. F' em, or rather don't.
"In which case this class thing only works if the wealthy people at the bottom accept their position. F' em, or rather don't."
Ah, but are the Real Housewives of Scarsdale and Brookline F'ing (or, rather, marrying) you?
I'd argue you're better off with a nice working-class girl who will respect you...these private-college girls are bitchy and whiny. Now if you can just keep them from ballooning once they hit 30...
Frankly, Steve needs to look at the role of Jewish women's bitchy personalities in encouraging intermarriage. Given that the topic includes both Jews and sex, he should get lots of readers.
My eyes and brain glaze over at the words "alpha" and "beta" followed by either gender term. It's as useless and subjective a designation as "racist." And as dehumanizing.
charlotte:
I see alpha/beta as simply applying a model in an area where it doesn't work very well. I wouldn't be surprised if that model worked well enough for trying to pick up women in bars. But trying to apply it more broadly runs into all kinds of problems, because most of life isn't all that much like picking up women in bars.
JSM:
Let's consider two different worlds.
In world one, you and the white woman have one child, and a black couple has another kid. Half your genes go into your kid from you, half your wife's genes go in from her. You share some fraction of her genes F, so the next generation gets 1/2+F/2 of your genes. For simplicity assume the black couple shares no genes with you (not at all true, but it makes the description simpler and doesn't change the result). So their kid adds none of your genes.
In world two, you marry the black woman, and your would-have-been spouse marries the black man. Each couple again has one child. You share no genes with the black woman (for this example--reality isn't like that!), and so your kid has 1/2 of your genes. The white woman has one kid with the black guy, 1/2 of her genes go into the kid, and since you share some fraction F of her genes, the kid gets F/2 of your genes. The next generation gets 1/2 + F/2 of your genes, spread into two different people.
These two worlds are the same in terms of your genes. The difference that may matter to you is that your kids will be more closely related to you if you have kids with someone from the same race (and even more related if they're more closely related to you--an Italian marrying a Ukranian isn't getting the same situation as two Northern Italians from the same village getting married.)
The other side of that is deleterious recessives, like if there's a recessive gene for hemophilia and you carry it. In that case, your kid is more likely to get the double-recessive if you marry someone closer to you genetically. I gather this isn't a big concern unless you're from an ethnic group that went through a very narrow pipe at some point (Ashkenazi Jews) or are marrying your half-sister or first cousin or something (European royal familes).
"But trying to apply it more broadly runs into all kinds of problems, because most of life isn't all that much like picking up women in bars."
Yes, noneoftheabove. It's probably just me. Sometimes to understand such terms, I try and relive the few times I actually went to bars when v. young. But that kind of backtracking is counterproductive to me these days. I'm looking for wiser ways to get through life.
>They don't care about degrees, money, etc., except insofar as they can fool a guy with these things to raise the other guy's kid.<
The two hottest Asian chicks I ever knew pursued precisely that pattern.
They had a loaded Mister Mom at home raising their kids from a previous relationship, and slept around with bad boys from work and from bars. Both disparagingly referred to their kitchen bitch as their "husband" even though it was evident that no legal marriage had taken place. Both women were US-born South Asians, and the men, both white, were not oldsters but in their 30s.
"The heart of woman is dark." This is depressingly true of too many women.
Speaking of the animal world in this connection, I once saw a PBS nature docu that showed a female bird getting poked by a passing male bird, not her mate. The mate or husband showing up immediately afterward and pecked the other bird's sperm out of her. She had no problem with either operation. My ex giggled uproariously while watching this. I have never looked at human females in exactly the same way again.
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