Ralph Richard Banks, a black Stanford Law professor, suggests in the WSJ in "An Interracial Fix for Black Marriage" that
Black women confront the worst relationship market of any group because of economic and cultural forces that are not of their own making; and they have needlessly worsened their situation by limiting themselves to black men. I also arrived at a startling conclusion: Black women can best promote black marriage by opening themselves to relationships with men of other races.
In the half decade or so after my 1997 article Is Love Colorblind, in which I sort of made a similar suggestion, I received lots of long emails from black ladies discussing these topics. From what I learned from these missives, I would predict that this isn't going to happen because, overall, black girls like black guys. A lot.
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117 comments:
Look, lets face facts. Men are incredibly shallow, we go after looks first, and then maybe personality and then character.
And in the racial female sports derby Black women come in last. Good bodies, but lacking feminine charm, long silky hair, thin lips, and cute noses.
This statement will result in any number of "But I love brown sugar.." but guess what? You're a minority.
You see white men with yellow fever & Asian and black men with blond fever but very few Asian or white men want a Black woman.
Sorry, to be so blunt. But its the truth.
"...I would predict that this[black women opening themselves to relationships with men of other races] isn't going to happen because, overall, black girls like black guys. A lot."
That's one of the reasons, certainly.
The trouble is black guys don't seem to like black girls nearly as much.
Men like submissive women, and black women are incredibly assertive.
But another important point to remember is that black men are the way they are because black women have selected them to be that way.
"From what I learned from these missives, I would predict that this isn't going to happen because, overall, black girls like black guys. A lot."
And non-black guys don't like black women. A lot.
And black women know non-black men don't like them. A lot.
"Men like submissive women, and black women are incredibly assertive."
Not really true. Lots of men like strong assertive women. But this toughness has to be of the right style. Vera Miles in Searchers is a tough gal guys like.
What they don't like is loud, stupid, crude, funkyass women--and too many black women are like that.
How about lesbianism?
"But another important point to remember is that black men are the way they are because black women have selected them to be that way"
Black women select their men the least because black men rape the most.
Also consider scarcity. Black men are murdered, behind bars, and not chasing after their own women more than any male group. Scarcity creates competition due the perceived higher value.
And... how many white, Asian, or Mexican men do you know who actually prefer black women?
I lived next to a white guy in Chicago who lived with two black women. Don't see that every day.
Remember the great exchange in John Sayles' Lone Star where the middle-aged white NCO tells his buddy about his impending marriage to a black female NCO?
Mickey: Think her family's gonna be okay that you're a white guy?
Cliff: They think any woman over 30 who isn't married is a lesbian. She figures, they'll be so relieved that I'm a man...
Mickey: Yeah, it's always heartwarming to see a prejudice defeated by a deeper prejudice.
Back in the 90s, I used to teach a fair number of black women who were engineering majors. One refrain that I heard on a number of occasions from them was that 'a good black man is hard to find'. As something of an exception to engineering as a whole, black women frequently outnumbered black men in engineering. Make of that what you will.
If you want to help the marriage prospects of these women, I suggest two things.
Number one, get serious about enforcing immigration laws and do it in a big way---think Eisenhower, Operation Wetback II. This will open a lot more niches for employment for black men---their unemployment rate has been seriously impacted by rampant illegal immigration. Not only that, but the wages of these sorts of jobs have been bid way down as well. The second thing is to rethink the war on drugs and the remaining Great Society programs that discouraged marriage in the underclass. Change the incentives and the black sexual and marriage marketplace will get less dysfunctional---after all, before 1965 the black illegitimacy rate was under 25%, there's lots of room for improvement.
It would be interesting if Steve looked at the immigrant riots going on in the UK right now.
Tom said,
"But another important point to remember is that black men are the way they are because black women have selected them to be that way."
No, it's because more children of those types of men survived.
Who survived and multiplied is the only question to ask. How the parents got together, did they love each other, etc. matters not a whit.
If a black woman in the Congo chose an "Urkel" to father her children and her children were beaten to death before puberty by the other kids, we would say the Congo does not select for nerdy kids. We would not say that she failed to direct evolution in a more noble way as that is the wrong way to look at it.
Your statement implies that women are the arbiters of evolution's direction when it is in fact the world.
A lot of mediterranean men - french, italian, jewish, spanish - love black women and black women love them back. (Notice how many single black women travel to Italy or Greece)
Attraction is complicated. People are attracted to people who are attracted to them; sometimes it takes a while before the awkwardness between groups disappears.
A lot of the differential intermarriage rates can be explained by the simple fact that black women are bigger, both in height and weight. Men generally marry women smaller than they are, so the pool of black women eligible to date interracially is smaller.
Look, anyone who has been married for a long time, knows that, whatever else it may also be, marriage is one long, long conversation.
And you get much greater than a 20 point IQ difference, long long conversations become exceedingly difficult. Impossible, eventually.
So. There it is.
Hey, sports and HBD and a death of a famous athlete (oh my! right up Mr. Sailer's alley1).
http://www.myfoxny.com/dpp/news/video-of-fight-that-ended-with-death-of-football-star-isayah-muller-20110708
Yes, there is a video and yes, it shows everything.
And you get much greater than a 20 point IQ difference, long long conversations become exceedingly difficult. Impossible, eventually.
More like 5. And that's why this Great Leap Forward that we're all told is going to happen, any day now, just you wait, ain't happening.
Lots of men like strong assertive women. But this toughness has to be of the right style. Vera Miles in Searchers is a tough gal guys like.
No, Vera Miles is an actress hired by a liberal Hollywood studio to portray a tough FICTIONAL gal in an effort to convince men that they like assertive women.
If you want to help the marriage prospects of these women, I suggest two things.
Somethings that are broken can't easily be fixed. Black marriage rates seem like one of those things.
"It would be interesting if Steve looked at the immigrant riots going on in the UK right now."
'Unruly teens' at it again.
A lot of blacks and some whites. It goes to show it's a lot easier for whites to adopt black identity and culture than for blacks to assimilate to white middle class culture--what's left of it. Why? It's easier to slide down than to climb up.
1) There are more black women who are "sweet" on white men than most people seem to believe. Yes, attractive ones. That's been my experience, but I never bit, and I think that's the case with a lot of these potential relationships. So the disinterest comes from both sides.
2) Cultural gaps can be enormous. Just look at the lists of top ten tv shows in white households versus those in black households. And then there's music...
3) I would not want to be a white guy dating a black girl and visiting a black club, or a black neighborhood, or even a black church. My sense is that black men are very territorial about their women.
4) Black women are the most liberal of all demographic groups, while the white men who would date them - men of generally lower IQ - are quite conservative. There's an enormous political gap to be overcome.
5) The obesity epidemic has hit black women hard. So have STDs. Black women used to be among the most active, and the most fit. Not anymore. Even if I were single and attracted to a black woman, I would be concerned, not without justification, about contracting a venereal disease. For that matter, I would be reluctant to even date white women who had slept with high-STD minorities.
Obesity, television, STDs, politics music - in many ways we're further away from integration than we were in the 60s, when lots of white men in the lower middle class still voted for Democrats, and rap music and AIDs were unheard of.
So I think there is some attraction, but a lot of people are independently deciding it's just not worth the trouble.
A white man is 25 times more likely to be murdered by a black partner than a white one. This suggests to me that all white men married to black women must deal with extraordinary levels of domestic violence. For all concerned, black women are better off single -- and childless.
I'm guessing white men in their prime would not be interested interracial marriage, especially with a black. On the other hand, I say let all the aging white left wing dweebs with man-boobs and enlarged prostates go after all the brown sugar they can handle. Keep the viagra handy because black ladies don't like being disappointed.
Black girls are under a huge deal of social pressure to like black guys. In the US, the baggage of history is a huge obstacle to black girls dating white guys.
http://www.statistics.gov.uk/images/charts/1090a.gif
Look at the UK 2001 Census on this topic. 20% of Black Caribbean girls married outside of the race v. 29% of Black Caribbean men. That's what happens when there isn't historical baggage.
The truth is this:
In general white men instinctively find black women highly unattractive - and this is even generally true despite such contrivances as hair straighters, weaves etc.
To most white men black women are simply invisible (in that they don't even register a glance when passed in the street).This behavior which is so strong and automatic must be instinctive.
By contrast white men do find oriental, asiatic, native American and mestizo women attractive, and will marry and have children with them despite the obvious large genetic and cultural barriers.
Not wishing to tread on too many toes, black women are found unattractive by white men in the same way as elderly women are - some deeply instinctive replusion, that destroys lust is at work here.
And of course there are usually zero rapes of black women by white men recorded year on year, despite the tens of millions of white men and black women in the USA.
Oh, and I forgot to add 6) a large number of black women today come with pre-existing conditions. They're called "children."
Gee, my understanding is that white men are unacceptable to these godesses.
Captain John Smith had no problem with marrying Pocohontas - even though she was as profoundly alien as possible to him.No doubt it was partially a strategic marriage, but I'm sure Captain Smith found beauty in Pochontas and was attracted to her.
I quote this example to show that if a man, a white man, finds a woman attractive and loveable, he is willing to put up with all manner of cultural and racial differences.
The fact that very, very few white American men want anything to do with black American women, despite the common language and nationality, speaks for itself.
"Black girls are under a huge deal of social pressure to like black guys."
From what I've observed, black families seem to put far more pressure on black boys not to date/marry out than black girls.
...Black women can best promote black marriage by opening themselves to relationships with men of other races.
Yeah, maybe, but then there's that whole Kanazawa thing...
The trouble is black guys don't seem to like black girls nearly as much.
Can't say I blame 'em:
African American women have the highest rates of being overweight or obese compared to other groups in the U.S. About four out of five African American women are overweight or obese.
So what's in it for the white guys? Such a great deal, how could anyone pass up such a once in a lifetime opportunity?
OK anecdotal evidence (FWIW, and of course the anecdotal may turn out to be, Not worth much): I'm a pale, balding, six-foot blue-eyed dude who looks, unfortunately, a little like Vladimir Putin... and I've always been amazed by how many ghetto sistas get to the point where they're sweet on me. I mean good-looking, fine, well-shaped gals from the other side of the tracks, not angry overweight couch potatoes.
These girls definitely have their assertive hard-bitten side (I've seen it, but it's not directed at me), but they definitely also have their sweet, feminine, girly, obedient side. I think with me they're actively trying to prove that they can be as sweetly feminine as a white or Asian girl... and dang, a lot of them are really good at it. Except of course that it's a deliberately chosen mode of behavior for them, and they have, um, other modes at their disposal too.
I rarely get much involved with them b/c of STD risks, lack of enough cultural common ground, psycho families, too much baggage etc etc so I tend to stay just friends, but I can tell you that there do exist lots of hot black gals who are non-middle class, who enjoy being sweet to white men under the right circumstances.
I think black women are on average psychologically more sophisticated and complex than many bloggers here would normally credit. They're very interesting, and frequently admirable, but unfortunatly their baggage is often just too complicated to be worth the plunge.
"No, Vera Miles is an actress hired by a liberal Hollywood studio to portray a tough FICTIONAL gal in an effort to convince men that they like assertive women."
It was 1956, I doubt the studio was that particularly hell-bent on pushing feminism at the time. And tough women stand up for their own children, there is no reason to knock on them. There is a big difference between being tough-minded/assertive, and being abrasive/arrogant.
anon:
"Look at the UK 2001 Census on this topic. 20% of Black Caribbean girls married outside of the race v. 29% of Black Caribbean men. That's what happens when there isn't historical baggage."
Yes, the situation in the UK is quite different. Inherent racial factors do cause a disparity (black men will always like white women more than black women like white men, and vice versa) but the absence of interracial mating by African-American women has a big cultural element. Where in the UK it's a 2:1 ratio, in the US it's more like 4:1.
This links to the current riots in London. While there have been some black on white racial attacks reported in the Daily Mail (not by the BBC etc, of course), the mobs have in many areas been integrated - black underclass, white underclass, and white anarchists (often middle class) working together.
This is one of the more comprehensive reports on the riots:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2023949/London-riots-2011-Hackney-Croydon-violence-shows-sign-abating.html
Why would any white guy in his right mind want to marry a black woman? So that he could have children with low IQ's and a high propensity to commit crimes? Also black women are not exactly renowned for their fidelity. Smart white guys, when they are looking for non-white wives, will usually look for an Asian wife.
My girlfriend must be different, she was born in Haiti and says that she has never, and never will date a black man. She still has the cheek to accuse me of racism!
Talk about the pot calling the kettle black!
Who apart from a homosexual male would ever find Grace Jones attractive, let alone want to sleep with her?
I rest my case.
Another piece of anecdotal evidence.
During the 'golden age' of what are euphemistically called 'men's magazines', back in the 1970s, before they got into gynaecology bigtime, it was a truism in the industry, that once a magazine title thought it was being 'bold, clever and trendy' by putting a black woman on the front cover, then the monthly sale would plunge.Drastically.And of course it's touch and go that once circulation goes down it ever climbs back up.
For that reason, most of your conventional porno titles (back in the pre-internet days), rarely if ever, put a black woman on the cover.
DSK?
"And Captain John Smith had no problem with marrying Pocohontas - even though she was as profoundly alien as possible to him.No doubt it was partially a strategic marriage, but I'm sure Captain Smith found beauty in Pochontas and was attracted to her."
Descriptions of American Indians in the mid-Atlantic area, where Poco was from, generally described the women as possessing all the traits of beauty as any European might, lacking only a fair complexion. Well-this was before the sun-tan era.
They were not the same kind of North American Indians that became so iconically known a few hundred years later.
There are no full-blood Indians left from this area of the country, but it is well known historically that east-coast Indians looked very different from Indians further inland, and drastically different from Plains Indians. Their generaly phenotype was considered to differ little from Europeans and this gave rise to stories of them being descended from Phoenecians or even some errant Europeans. They formed such a large group that a lost-ship of European could hardly account for their looks. I opt for the possibility that "Phoenicians" or some middle-eastern trading venture brought many non-native-Americans to the eastern shores of North America.
Pocohontas' portrait (no one is certain how much it resembles her, since it was done some time after her death, from memory) shows a woman with aquiline features and a darkish complexion. She certainly did not look that "alien" to the English.
A lot of mediterranean men - french, italian, jewish, spanish - love black women and black women love them back. (Notice how many single black women travel to Italy or Greece).
How many of those single black women end up married to one of those Mediterranean men who love them so much?
In the 18th century there were hundreds of mulattos born in the Gulf Coast area (the only area I'm expert on as far as inter-racial breeding) and the first mulattos, 50-50 black/white, were obviously the product of white men and black women. Many of these relationships are well recorded, common-law unions where they lived together for decades and had a passel of children, all of whom are mentioned in wills left by both the black mother (who was usually a slave that was freed at some point in the relationship) and the white father. Some white men had a "black" family and a white family, and the descendants keep the lineages quite separate.
In one instance, the white man left his slaves to his black wife, who did not free them but did make sure they were baptized. Indeed the white fathers were quite adamant that their mixed offspring be baptized. These were Catholics of French and Spanish background. That being said, it surprises me that someone on this thread claimed Med men are attracted especially to blacks. Actually they go mad for blondes, but I'm sure there are some out-liers. I think they'll experiment with anyone that comes along, if willing and age appropriate, but the Cubans and Italians and Greeks that I've known are even more focussed than are northern types on avoiding "darkening" their lineage. Greeks may consider themselves separate from other Europeans (silly in most cases from what I've seen) but they do not consider themselves anywhere near black. I've heard them laugh over that little afrocentric fantasy.
All women like black guys. A lot.
This links to the current riots in London. While there have been some black on white racial attacks reported in the Daily Mail (not by the BBC etc, of course), the mobs have in many areas been integrated - black underclass, white underclass, and white anarchists (often middle class) working together.
Are the Pakis joining in?
Peter
> I received lots of long emails from black ladies discussing these topics. From what I learned from these missives, I would predict that this isn't going to happen because, overall, black girls like black guys.
Steve -- What are the features of black guys that your black-woman correspondents found compelling (cf. whites, Asians, etc.)?
I don't think that point of view is represented in the comments, to this point.
"Who apart from a homosexual male would ever find Grace Jones attractive, let alone want to sleep with her?"
Sometimes it's hard to tell homosexuals
"Black women can best promote black marriage"
Interracial marriage is not black marriage, or is it the woman only who defines the color of a marriage.
First Anonymous: "Men are incredibly shallow". Yes your misandrist stuff you already know where put it.
In response to anonymous's question about Grace Jones, the answer for about six years was Dolph Lundgren.
Actually, there's this article which says that white male-black female marriages are actually more stable than average, even if they don't happen as much:
http://www.amren.com/mtnews/archives/2011/07/interracial_div.php
"Captain John Smith had no problem with marrying Pocohontas - even though she was as profoundly alien as possible to him."
Pocahontas wasn't black. Surely you aren't implying that non-white women are interchangeable?
"No doubt it was partially a strategic marriage, but I'm sure Captain Smith found beauty in Pochontas and was attracted to her."
You've read contemporaneous accounts? Or did you just get swept up in that whole Exotic Other fervor?
"I quote this example to show that if a man, a white man, finds a woman attractive and loveable, he is willing to put up with all manner of cultural and racial differences."
That's a pretty "if". And willing to put up with profound differences is not the same as able to do so.
"The fact that very, very few white American men want anything to do with black American women, despite the common language and nationality, speaks for itself."
Yes, it does. But common language? Most white men I have met speak very different to the black women I have met. While well-educated black people don't usually speak ebonics around whites, they do use Standard English is such a convoluted way as to alter it significantly. And common nationality is not, I suspect, as strong a bond as common ethnicity.
I'm glad you're not presenting an argument on my behalf.
I live in brooklyn , i have seen lots of white guys with unattractive looking black women.. i can only conclude its cultural marxism run wild.. that they feel 'sainted' in what they are doing and producing a multi racial child..
I always notice white parents of multi racial children or black adapted children go around with them as if they were icons to prove their mutliculti piety.
But another important point to remember is that black men are the way they are because black women have selected them to be that way.
Excellent point.
"Not wishing to tread on too many toes, black women are found unattractive by white men in the same way as elderly women are"
Yes, that's how black Americans got to be ~20% white - white men found them all repulsive.
FTR, I would not get it on with an elderly woman no matter how horny I was (Helen Mirren the possible exception). I've seen plenty of attractive black women, however. For most white men, black women aren't as likely to be attractive as white women. There are still plenty of attractive ones, however.
Body odor is an important factor in human mate selection. Both women and men react to the smell of potential mates; women consider smell most important and men consider smell just less important than appearance.
On the average, blacks and whites differ considerably in apocrine sweat secretion and resulting (often unpleasant) body odor. This factor may well influence the rate of interracial mate-seeking.
If black women prefer strong body odors such as black men commonly produce, they will likely find white men less attractive on average. If white men prefer mild body odors such as white women commonly produce, they will likely find black women less attractive on average.
Many commenters have remarked on research showing that (all) men perceive black women to look less attractive on average. That may explain part of the asymmetry in black-white mate selection. However, though men rate looks as the most important factor in attractiveness, it is also well known that men are not all that picky (Florence King once wrote that many a horny redneck "would fuck a pile of rocks if he thought there was a snake under it").
If black women flirted with white men they would likely get some attention even if their looks were less attractive on average. Yet black women don't seem very interested in white men. Since women overall rate smell as the most important factor of attractiveness, perhaps the problem is that white men are not odoriferous enough on average to attract black women.
Quality and quantity of body odor may be influencing both black women and white men (perhaps in opposite directions) to reduce the mating attraction between them (all on average, of course).
How common is it that desperate to marry, desperate to have black, african-american women (with the means) go to the carribean/south america/africa to get a husband of the desired race, and then take him over to the states?
More in general, how common is a mail-order-husband phenomenon in the USA?
black women don't want to explain their hair to white men
The last time a black woman expressed interest in me, she explained her hair immediately before asking what my parents would think if I brought home a black girl. Her attraction to me is fascinating in retrospect, as she was then still seeing a starting cornerback from her alma mater and would go on to date a Dallas Cowboys corner.
How about lesbianism?
8/8/11 9:22 PM
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No matter how hard they try, won't lead to future offspring....
lived next to a white guy in Chicago who lived with two black women. Don't see that every day.
8/8/11 9:26 PM
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Hey SOMEONE has to pay the rent.
Anonymous said...
Look, anyone who has been married for a long time, knows that, whatever else it may also be, marriage is one long, long conversation.
And you get much greater than a 20 point IQ difference, long long conversations become exceedingly difficult. Impossible, eventually.
So. There it is.
8/8/11 10:01 PM
Agreed. I once broke up with my China born g/f. Pretty, smart, had a great job, family own restaurants. I broke up with her bec I just could not understand 1/2 of what she said!
Re: "No, Vera Miles is an actress hired by a liberal Hollywood studio to portray a tough FICTIONAL gal in an effort to convince men that they like assertive women."
Do you know who John Ford was? Have you ever seen The Searchers? You think it's some "liberal" fable, do you? Trust me, it will chill your blood. It is positively sick-making that so many on the Right flaunt their cultural ignorance like a badge of honour.
Oh, and then there's the matter of sexual gratification, and of the relative penis sizes of black men vs. white men. No need to go into greater detail, but the difference will bother both black women and white men.
Jehu makes a point that deserves some investigation. I used to see lots of black men driving big trucks. Have those jobs mostly gone to Latinos? What's happened to truck-driving wages since the mid-90's? If there was a drop, did it precede massive immigration? And here's something else I've noticed: for about 10 yrs. now U.C. Berkeley has been on a construction binge. Whenever I walk by these sites, I see hardly any black men. This is largely Dept. Educ. money, right? So where's the mandatory black hiring? Anyone have an answer?
One of the more amusing things I ever saw was a few years ago on a BART train. Really pretty 22-year old octoroon, 4 months pregnant, sitting across from classic high-school dropout tattoed white guy about the same age. White guy: "Wanna party some time?" She with demure smile: "I have a boyfriend."
"it was a truism in the industry, that once a magazine title thought it was being 'bold, clever and trendy' by putting a black woman on the front cover, then the monthly sale would plunge.Drastically.And of course it's touch and go that once circulation goes down it ever climbs back up."
Playboy used to have one black playmate a year. The black playmate tended to win playmate of the year since there was one black playmate and 11 white playmates in the running. I think they switched to a black january /black december playmate year then a year without black playmates to avoid this.
I used to work next to a black woman in her mid-30's who had a 17-year old stepson, DeAndre. She made 5-6 calls a day to him that went, "where are you? get back to school."
Look, lets face facts. Men are incredibly shallow, we go after looks first, and then maybe personality and then character.
That's not facing facts. Facing facts requires us to admit that men go after nookie first, second, and third, and only after that urge is satisfied do we begin to worry about such trivialities as looks, personality, and character.
I would predict that this isn't going to happen because, overall, black girls like black guys. A lot.
From what I've seen, it is women of every race who are the most resistant to sleeping with outside races. There may be some deep evo-psych reason for this. Men, by contrast, are much more eager to sample women of different races.
"Captain John Smith had no problem with marrying Pocohontas - even though she was as profoundly alien as possible to him.No doubt it was partially a strategic marriage, but I'm sure Captain Smith found beauty in Pochontas and was attracted to her.
I quote this example to show that if a man, a white man, finds a woman attractive and loveable, he is willing to put up with all manner of cultural and racial differences.
The fact that very, very few white American men want anything to do with black American women, despite the common language and nationality, speaks for itself."
Black Americans (of both sexes) have serious cultural problems. But a lot of that can be attributed to the "American" rather than the "black" part of their identity. Blacks from Britain or even Haiti are completely different people.
Has anyone ever thought that of allowing high-IQ blacks from Africa and the Caribbean to jump to the front of the immigration line? Essentially allow anyone to take the SAT, and any male making in the top 15 percent (115 IQ roughly) gets in. It would solve a lot of problems.
Of course, as a practical matter I think we should allow anyone, anywhere with an IQ of 115 or higher automatic citizenship. Or if we can't handle that load, make it 120.
I read a lot of jazz history, and in the 30s there were in NYC a few "black and tan" clubs where the races could intermix. There were a always a few ultra left whites who went for blacks, even white men, sometimes out of extreme sympathy to the civil rights cause, and curiosity, and horniness. Plus their mores were a tad looser.
I'd be curious to know whether it was more white women than men, but I do remember guys in the 60s saying black women were better in bed than us uptight white girls.
"Yes, that's how black Americans got to be ~20% white - white men found them all repulsive."
Look, desperate men will even hump sheep and plastic inflateables.
"From what I've observed, black families seem to put far more pressure on black boys not to date/marry out than black girls."
Black families? You mean they still exist?
Miscegenation is bad for parents because it lowers their genetic fitness. A parent of a mixed-race child will share fewer genes with this child than if he or she had a child with a partner of the same race. Thus, it's unsurprising that most mixed-race children are neglected. Parents have little genetic investment in mixed-race children.
Frank Salter: "Misunderstandings of Kin Selection and the Delay in Quantifying Ethnic Kinship"
http://www.mankindquarterly.org/samples/SalterMQXLVIII-3.pdf
"Has anyone ever thought that of allowing high-IQ blacks from Africa and the Caribbean to jump to the front of the immigration line? Essentially allow anyone to take the SAT, and any male making in the top 15 percent (115 IQ roughly) gets in. It would solve a lot of problems.
Of course, as a practical matter I think we should allow anyone, anywhere with an IQ of 115 or higher automatic citizenship. Or if we can't handle that load, make it 120."
This is insane for a number of reasons, not the least of which is that it would undermine the ethnic genetic interests of European Americans.
Cavalli-Sforza found the biggest racial gap to be between Africans and non-Africans, which recently has been confirmed by the finding that all non-Africans have Neanderthal DNA, thus suggesting that Africans and non-Africans aren't completely the same species.
Ergo, it's not at all surprising that almost all non-Africans find black people (both men and women) to be extremely unattractive.
As R/H/E notes pointed out, only white trash dates black people:
http://racehist.blogspot.com/2009/04/more-data-on-racial-mixing.html
"Black girls are under a huge deal of social pressure to like black guys. In the US, the baggage of history is a huge obstacle to black girls dating white guys."
This may work out different among classes.
At the high end, I don't think there's much problem, i.e. the woman who married Senator Cohen.
Among upper middle class black women, going with a white man might mean having to choose the community of white friends over a community of black friends. So, even if the woman may like the white guy, she may prefer to have black friends than white friends. In subtle ways, she may feel less welcome among blacks if she went with a white guy. Black female friends may ask funny questions, and black male friends may treat her somewhat coolly even if nicely. She might feel less comfortable even if things remain cordial. And her new white friends, though nice, may seem kinda awkward around her and vice versa.
The problem with marriage is you don't just marry the person but his family, friends, and associates. You may like the guy but may not care for his 'world'.
If his culture is very different than yours, you may feel like a fish out of water.
At the lower end, black females may not want to date white guys cuz black toughies will berate her and beat up the 'white boy', who won't have the muscle power to defend himself or his girl. In rough neighborhoods, women want to hook up with tough guys since the law of the jungle prevails. Indeed, even white women may go with black males in such a community cuz they're used to seeing white guys get whupped left and right by black guys.
Of course, as a practical matter I think we should allow anyone, anywhere with an IQ of 115 or higher automatic citizenship.
What exactly is "practical" about such a proposal?
I am pretty sure it's more common for black men to marry white women than the other way around.
Per wikipedia -
- according to the Census Bureau, there were 354,000 White female-Black male and 196,000 Black female-White male married couples in March 2009, a ratio of 181:100, but this ratio tends to decline: it was 371:100 at its peak in 1981. Marital stability studies published on the Education Resources Information Center found that White female-Black male unions are more prone to result in a divorce than White-White marriages are, while Black female-White male marriages show substantially lower rates of divorce than White-White marriages
At the lower end, black females may not want to date white guys cuz black toughies will berate her and beat up the 'white boy', who won't have the muscle power to defend himself or his girl.
Why do so many people on this blog believe that black men are more muscular than white men? You'd think that HBD people would know the facts a little better than that.
" As something of an exception to engineering as a whole, black women frequently outnumbered black men in engineering. Make of that what you will."
As something of an exception to gifted programs as a whole, black women frequently outnumber black men in gifted education programs.
I make of it: Black women have higher IQs on average than Black men.
Do black women have a different smell than other women?
"Has anyone ever thought that of allowing high-IQ blacks from Africa and the Caribbean to jump to the front of the immigration line?"
Better idea: Let's give high-IQ Black women some $$$ to go to Africa to find her high-IQ Black man -- and stay there.
How is it these women can't find a husband but they can manage to get pregnant over and over again?
There are some absolutely delightful, feminine, pretty black women. Just not very many of them. I sense that quite a lot of black women, especially the more intelligent ones, would be rather keen to have relationships with white men, but they know that they are generally not attractive to them, so give up easily. I'm not convinced about the claim that black men are territorial about their women in general - a lot of them have little or no sexual interest in black women, but I guess that it doesn't necessarily follow that they'd be happy with white guys moving in on them.
I suppose that where fathers make little or no investment in their children (e.g. sub-Saharan Africa and other parts of the world that have become like it), mothers have to step up to the plate, and wear the pants. The selection pressures on European women were historically very different.
Also, I'm not sure being fat (in black or non-black women) is much of a deterrent to black men. Other things being equal they'd rather have a slender woman with T&A, but they'd rather have a fat woman with T&A than a slender woman without. Presentable looking black men seem to put up with fat women a lot more readily than presentable looking white men do.
A (white) friend of mine in England married a black Caribbean girl - and when I met her family many years later, I discovered that her sister was married to an Asian (Indian) man - a combination very rare in the UK. Their daughter was one of the most striking girls I've ever seen - fine-featured African face and that wonderful straight, black, waist-length hair some Asian girls have - a real beauty.
John Rolfe married Pocahontas, not John Smith. Even those who denounced the original comment failed to correct the error!
People, please get your history straight: Pocahontas did NOT marry Captain John Smith!
She married tobacco planter John Rolfe, was baptized as an Anglican, and lived out the remainder of her short life as Rebecca Rolfe.
Yes, that's how black Americans got to be ~20% white - white men found them all repulsive
This just means that a minority of white men were attracted to black women. It may also mean that they couldn't get white women and so settled for black women as a consolation prize.
"Better idea: Let's give high-IQ Black women some $$$ to go to Africa to find her high-IQ Black man -- and stay there."
Exactly!
I get that most of the men here don't find black women attractive, but why all criticism? Most gay men don't howl about women as you all do about black women.
You wouldn't expect every woman to be your type, so why are so disgusted by black women? Seriously why?
We date and marry inside our social network, and there is a large and successful effort to keep these two particular social spheres separate. For women by age 30 it is too late to undo what has happened.
"Most gay men don't howl about women as you all do about black women. You wouldn't expect every woman to be your type, so why are so disgusted by black women?"
Who's howling or complaining?
Rates of single motherhood, obesity, STD infection, education, etc. are all what they are, as are cultural differences. If black women were better on these metrics but still uninterested in white men we might have something to complain about.
Now if Asian women were uninterested in white men then you might see some real bitching...
"according to the Census Bureau, there were 354,000 White female-Black male and 196,000 Black female-White male married couples in March 2009"
Not sure how significant marriage rates are, given the large number of non-commital relationships. I would wager that a higher portion of "serious" black female/white male relationships go to the altar. The ratio of BM/WF vs WM/BF marriages may only be ca. 2/1, but there are probably at least 3-4 times as many biracial children with black fathers compared to those with white fathers.
"Are the Pakis joining in?
Peter"
Not in any reports I've seen, and not in our area (Pakistani in north, lower class Tamil in south). Pakistanis seem to be on the same, anti-riot, side as the EDL (working class, non-underclass whites) on this one.
I just saw your post about North Philly gun play. Black guys offer a level of service white guys won't match.
"Most blacks are born with Bromhidrosis, which gives them that distinctive smell. Many people from India also have it."
Bro-mhidrosis? You gotta be jiving me.
astorian:
Oddly, I know this only because of a novel that used it as a bit of slternative history backstory--SM Stirling's excellent book Conquistador.
I dated a sister for a few months in college. We met at the gym, and she had the classic black girl features, which I didn't find particularly attracive in comparison to white girls. What was different was that she was an intelligent and funny southern sister at a Boston college, and in my experience they carry much less baggage than those from the north.
My experience was the external pressures were greater than the interpersonal ones.
Yes, they smell different, not bad, just different. Yes, the hair thing is a big deal; she had a whole straightening routine more complex than a Shuttle launch. And yes, she took a lot of shit from other sisters and her family for dating whitey. I met the family once during Parents' Weekend, and her father seemed to be OK with me (shotputter/powerlifter and academic scholarship) but her mother was not-so-covertly hostile.
"Most gay men don't howl about women as you all do about black women.'
Yes, there's a subset of gay men, the bitchy (and usually flamboyant boys) who essentially hate women, if their rhetoric is any indication.
My experience around gay men, however, suggests that the people they "howl" about are straight men. Inferiority and persecution complexes often do that.
Not sure how significant marriage rates are, given the large number of non-commital relationships.
1) You should direct your objection to NOOTA and not to me, as he is the one who inquired about marriage rates.
2) Marriage rates obviously mean something, and they provide a hard data point. The same cannot be said for your guesswork about non-committal relationships.
I can't believe Steve Sailer didn't offer advice about African-American women moving to Africa and dating African men. I'm vacationing right now in the USA but live in West Africa and possibly will marry an African man. I'm a girl of African descent. I'm not American though.
As R/H/E notes pointed out, only white trash dates black people:
That's true only if you tautologically define "white trash" as those who date blacks.
Why do so many people on this blog believe that black men are more muscular than white men?
It's only one person who endlessly repeats this bogus claim.
Surprised nobody clicked this from the article:
"Part of the reason, again, is the market. Numerous studies of Internet dating confirm that black women are the partners least desired by non-black men." I've heard from other studies that black women also apply the highest same-race preference, which makes for a bad combination.
The r/h/e post referred to may be this one.
Actually, on second thought, the combination of first and third person racial preferences would be effectively redundant. It's a dearth of eligible men combined with first-person racial preferences that we would a priori expect to compound.
Walk through Home Depot during the middle of the day. You'll see plenty of big tough muscular white guys with tattoos. These are not the type of guys that get flash mobbed.
Walk through Starbucks during the middle of the day. You'll see a lot of wimpy looking SWPLs sipping on their lattes and listening to the IPOD. These are the type of white guys that get flash mobbed.
Blacks only mess with weak looking whites. You're not going to see them drive into Irish Southie or the Applachian hollers to start fights.
Allow me to demur. The most important qualities in a mate are friendliness and intelligence. Friendliness because you will have to get along with her for a long time (you hope) and intelligence because it makes her more interesting and your children will inherit her genes. If she is pretty all the better but no amount of looks will make up for hostility and stupidity.
Yes, that's how black Americans got to be ~20% white - white men found them all repulsive
In the old American days, horney slave owners would have a go at some of their slave girls.
Who knows how many drinks the old boys typically had before they did the deed?
i know this is hard for people to comprehend, but believe it or not a lot of black women are not attracted to white men… I can tell you (from first hand account )that most of the black women I know, don't even think about white men in a romantic sense. The reason most bw aren't into wm is because too many white men are racists period. the comments in this thread exemplify that racism.
Also, I gotta say it’s funny how some of the people in this thread are carrying on about how repulsive black women are and how black women are supposedly ‘running after’ white men, yet the opposite has always been true... white men actually went after black women and many were/ are obsessed and fixated on black women....whether in a positive or negative way. Even the ones who claim not to be attracted to black women seem to be obsessed with black women...just look at this blog for example. I’ve never seen people spend so much time and energy TRYING to convince themselves and others that a particular group(that they're "uninterested" in) is undesirable…some people really are obsessed with black women not sure why…I’ve never seen anything like this.
Ofcourse this isn’t true of all white men nor of all black women. Some black women like white men, some white men like black women and they get on just fine.
Tansey--
Your statement implies that women are the arbiters of evolution's direction when it is in fact the world.
Both are arbiters of selection. Darwin supplemented "survival of the fittest" with "sexual selection". Evolutionary biologists since have shown tons of evidence for sexual selection's power.
Partly women are most attracted to what survives and prevails best in the environment - that which has highest status in the social group in question -- and partly qwerks of sexual selection develop, like does being attracted to the biggest antlers and peacock hens to the biggest and most colorful male tails.
Google evolution sexual selection for more details.
hey new to steve's blog, just wanted to throw my 2 cents in. as a white dude I only find white women attractive. as do most wm do. as most comments tell we simply dont find non white women attractive, eps. bw.
In general black girls were always in the last portion when it comes to beauty and because of that most men don't find them attractive. I have read some of the interesting blogs out there which also talks about interracial relationship and some of the black women out there were successfully and happily married for white guys. Now, I guess interracial relationship for black women is a great opportunity to meet different races.
Not true maybe some I have a friend who is married to a black girl in love with her hell of jelous if any guy try to flirt or conversate with her he knows she is not going to cheat but he said he only wants her and only her no one else he is attractive too but he rejects anyone attention from everyone else.
Not true maybe some I have a friend who is married to a black girl in love with her hell of jelous if any guy try to flirt or conversate with her he knows she is not going to cheat but he said he only wants her and only her no one else he is attractive too but he rejects anyone attention from everyone else.
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